Medieval people were NOT FLAT EARTHERS or all died before 30 | Medieval Misconceptions REPLY

[@shadiversity]

Absolutely spectacular video mate! Man, I *loved* the additional references and insight you added. Love your work and content mate, thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[@udahfickt]

Ah Lord Shad is here. All hail king Shad

[@metatronyt]

My very pleasure and really great choice of topic! I'm glad you liked my reply and keep up the good work!

[@Tim_Dervish]

@@metatronyt You guys should definitely do a video together as you both bring so much knowledge to the table!

[@ugueossaf8362]

@AileDiablo gtfo

[@Kolter657]

@AileDiablo because we don't know you from Adam so we don't know your credentials. I'm sure as an educated man, such as yourself, knows of how many false claims there are on the internet.

[@openfly4u]

I like that there is such a back and forth between historical youtubers, brings up questions, clarifies and also peer reviews each other. Love it! Both of you keep up the good and passionate work!

[@Spot_Faceless-Soldier]

Honestly, i love this community, and how different youtubers just casually reply to eachother when they want clarify, correct, or add to the topic.

[@anthonyoer4778]

One word.... Machinations!

[@kylewilliams8114]

Seriously, many history KZbinrs treat it as a dialogue. Which I believe all good history is! When we reason things out as a community, we get much closer to the truth(generally). Watch Vsauce's video on the future of reason. Fascinating stuff.

[@jinxhead4182]

It's almost as if the scientific method is applied by people and working quite well, enabling fact based, civil dialogue. Shocking. :) And yes, the historical community, on or off youtube, is pretty awesome.

[@chadgessele7452]

Respectful dialog and rebuttal is both useful and a thrill as it is so often in short supply. If nothing else, this whole exchange and the material in it is a useful check on our egos. That may be worth almost as much as the particular facts.

[@nikoslav]

He's speaking english but still gesticulates constantly like the Italian that he is. Love it.

[@nikoslav]

@@уроки_итальянского_с_мартино ну, адаптировались, что сказать. Надо почаще летать домой.

[@lolloblue9646]

We speak with our hands as much as our mouths, that is a pretty known fact.

[@Mortablunt]

@@lolloblue9646 How to you silence an Itallian? Bind his hands. @Nikoslav Чем замолчать Итальянец? Захвати его руки.

[@rheinhartsilvento2576]

English people gesticulate a lot more nowadays though. So he doesn't really stand out that much I'd say😁

[@kacperwoch4368]

All we really need to know is that people in the past were just like us. There was logic, reason and there was ignorance and superstition. Feeling superior to our ancestors is the peak of ignorance.

[@jackcarl2772]

My major at university was history...you just stated something far more profound than any of my professors ever did.

[@wolf1066]

Feeling superior to our ancestors was a popular fashion in the Victorian Era. If there's one thing we can learn from them, it's not to assume your own age is the pinnacle of reason and technology.

[@juliantheapostate8295]

@@wolf1066 on the contrary, the Victorians overly romanticised their ancestors

[@wolf1066]

@@juliantheapostate8295 They romanticised some *aspects* of their ancestors - but not their ability at science and technology. The Victorians actively made fake historical artefacts - like torture devices that were never actually used, chastity belts which were also never used... the catalogue of Victorian forgeries of historical things is quite extensive.

[@tijgertjekonijnwordopgegeten]

Except that there was more ignorance and superstition simply because there was less education.

[@Robert08010]

The biblical reference to "The four corners of the earth" is exactly like referencing "From the North to the South to the East and to the West". Its a poetic was of saying in every direction as far as you can see.

[@Matth_M]

And we still use the expression "all corners of the world" tho we all know it is spherical. That's just stupid

[@cp1cupcake]

There are also Biblical phrases which call the world round/spherical, but the exact transaction will probably depend on who is translating it.

[@dosidicusgigas1376]

I think its a reference to maps

[@taqresu5865]

@laninthomasma8814 the original hebrew word here better translates to "round." It could technically refer to a circle, but could just as easily refer to a sphere or other round shape. So it doesn't prove that Christians or Jews necessarily believed in a Flat Earth. Not to mention that ancient Greeks, as early as the 3rd or 4th century BC believed the Earth was round, and even accurately measured the circumference of the Earth centuries before Christ was born. Also Noah's Global Flood isn't compatible with the Flat Earth theory.

[@TheLeadG]

People don’t understand that they (biblical writers) lived in a high context society and were not scientific like we are they said things in a different way. FAR too many people try to apply our standards to those of the past. Bad history.

[@adrianwebster6923]

The fact that the medieval mind was so focused on logic and an orderly worldview holds a very important and uncomfortable lesson for today. Many of the ideas of this period that we have since discarded, like the four humors, were based on logically sound reasoning. It was flawed due to a lack of knowledge of some things and certain assumptions/biases but there was a sound reasoning behind their worldview. We need to keep this in mind and try to avoid being complacent in our own knowledge and logic. Much of it will eventually be proven wrong or at least incomplete.

[@twuandixon8675]

Feelings feelings everywhere but not a drop of sense.

[@Blunderbussy]

@@twuandixon8675 bullshit. There is sense everywhere. You are just scared because the world hurts your feelings on a daily basis.

[@greatomeister675]

In other words Humans don’t change.

[@eliahelfenbein4731]

That is exactly what I thought. I mean physiks is so interesting. However when they apply Math to it it mostly doesnt Work. They have to round a lot. Which indicates that physiks is flawed. My physicsteacher in Highshool Said 7 is round about 12.

[@twuandixon8675]

@@Blunderbussy no, you're just being a classic internet idiot. I stand by my statement, feelings get us nowhere, everyone has different ones right? Hence why you jumped straight in yours with zero thought 😂 dime a dozen.

[@Sigeberht]

While many folks in the middle ages could not read, they relied on symbols. The one representing authority of Christ over the Earth is the globus cruciger, the orb and cross. It is present in a lot of iconography, in the regalia of every ruler, on paintings and coins. The ancient gold smiths would have had a much easier time sticking a cross on a disk, rather than crafting an orb each time.

[@mulmeyun]

brilliant observation

[@samomarincek478]

great explanation. I never thought of that before...

[@thomasecker9405]

Agreed. Excellent observation.

[@wolf1066]

Excellent point. I was not aware of the _globus cruciger_ but, yes, you would be quite right: if the most common representation of the Earth was of a globe, then that's the idea they would have had.

[@johnhoelzeman6683]

That's what I was thinking, that's a pretty clear example that most every Christian going to Mass would've seen

[@flamewingsonic]

Just expanding on this: 15:31 "We, modern people, use reason and logic, medieval people were superstitious and stupid" A lot of people today are superstitious and stupid, and a lot of people in the medieval age used reason and logic. Medieval people also probably had a sense of superiority over those that came before, just as we do nowadays. And in both cases, the sense of superiority is probably not merited. It just goes to show that people haven't changed at all in the intervening centuries.

[@Knoloaify]

I don't know about medieval people having a sense of superiority over people preceding them. Medieval Europeans had a LOT of respect for the Antiquity and loved to read about ancient Greeks and Romans. In Medieval thought, it was also often common for people to think that there was a "golden age" in the past that was simply better than the times they were living now. So yeah, I don't think Medieval people had the same sense of superiority over the people who preceded them, mainly because they culturally gave a lot of importance to everything ancient.

[@fransbuijs808]

@@Knoloaify That's right, people in the Middle Ages knew about the great philosophers of antiquity and they knew they were standing on the shoulders of giants.

[@bearistotle2820]

I would even go so far as to say the medievals were better in touch with the human experience than we are. They also wouldn't throw out the lessons of their ancestors at the drop of a hat, as others have mentioned.

[@IIARROWS]

I disagree. I think people have changed, on the extremes. Some got better, but the worse got much worse, with a stage to talk from.

[@tafazzi-on-discord]

From the literature I've studied in high school, medieval people only felt superior to those that came befire in terms of "we're more faithful than they were". Which is probably true and honestly the only good reason to feel superior to another population.

[@stevenmcdonald1901]

When I went to school, the flat earth columbus story was taught as a historical fact. I went back home that day and talked to my grandpa. He never filtered anything, told me that was complete bs and if I really wanted to learn anything I should do my own research. I think that was the day I started thinking for myself and stopped believing that anything put in a text book was an irrefutable fact.

[@lasagnasux4934]

I was forerunner enough that we had a science teacher who ran the planetarium at the high school who taught about this to all of us 3rd graders on our field trip.

[@chimneyphish]

Chronological snobbery is a plague on history. Respect, Metatron.

[@kungfuman82]

LMAO, KZbin thinks wikipedia is going to give "context" to this. That gave me a good laugh.

[@brandonkohler6677]

Yes, I love that

[@BonaparteBardithion]

It just automatically does that for any video it detects flat earth being mentioned in even if the video is debunking it. It's easier than trying to manually give a basic rebuttal to every video supporting the idea.

[@abraxas4261]

@@BonaparteBardithion Yeah, no, it's just stupid. All attempts by Big Tech to police ideas and language is just immoral and moronic.

[@BonaparteBardithion]

@@abraxas4261 I didn't say it was effective or even if I agree with the attempt. That just happens to be why you get those Wikipedia excerpts on certain topics.

[@robertjenkins6132]

OrwellTube

[@tacothunderking4558]

I love how KZbin has deemed it necessary to provide "context" to a Metatron video by linking a Wikipedia article, just because the term "Flat Earth" appears in the video.

[@astronichols1900]

Yeah and even asserts the general claim that it's an ancient worldview. Stupid thought police lol. Heck it would be more useful to associate heliocentrism and geocentrism with a time period. Speaking of which, I'd love to see a Metatron video on that.

[@nunya_bizniz]

It's basically to debunk the doofus flerfs who will show up and deny facts.

[@valentinmitterbauer4196]

@@astronichols1900 How is the worldview called where people thought that the earth was the center of the solar system, however they aknowledged that all other bodies rotated around the sun (which itself would rotate around the stationary earth)?

[@lsq7833]

@@astronichols1900 Lmao. Flat earth nowadays is a very recent thing.

[@minutemansam1214]

@@astronichols1900 I mean, the ancient Egyptians (like Bronze Age Egyptians) did have a flat Earth cosmology. It was an actual thing people believed in. To say that no group of ancient people believed the Earth was flat is false.

[@dr1Voss48]

I just have to take a moment and say how much I love this channel. I’m an English and History teacher for 6th-12th grades in the US and I cannot tell you how invaluable you have been to the education of both my students and myself. It’s wonderful to see a lifelong passion that enriches the lives and knowledge of others and you, fair Metatron, have accomplished that and more. Your content is rich, multi-lingual (without being exclusive), totally encompassing from antiquity to the Medieval period and beyond, and based in exceptionally thorough historical research. Never stop with your wonderful work!

[@metatronyt]

Thank you! I'm honoured by your words

[@dr1Voss48]

@@metatronyt *Loud Fanboy Noises* :D

[@spaceisfake8184]

@@metatronyt why didnt you quote any flat earth earth sources from tht time period? A bit of a one sided presentation noble sir but I salute you for making the video

[@CheezeOfAstora]

@Michael Terrell II probably due to the Max lifespan would have been less compare to now, For eg.if today it is 70-80 years, the adulthood age is 18 years, compare it to medieval the avg lifespan would be 60 years, so adulthood age would be 15 years. Following this pattern in the future it may be very much possible if the age of adulthood goes to 21-22 as our lifespan increase more due to better and healthy lifestyle.

[@CheezeOfAstora]

@Michael Terrell II age of above 21 in pre modern era was not the adulthood age it was the age of when can a person can get authoritive powers, even today this practice happens, I think the marriage age in Roman empire was quite low 13-14 for both boys and girls. This only grew as time passed, at post "Dark ages" this number would have been higher.and now it is commonly 18-21 in majority of the countries. If you are above 14-15 in pre 17th century then you would be considered an adult not because you have influence on power, but you are a workforce, labor, soldier etc. Now this age has become 18-19 but still some 16-17 years old now thinks as they are adults and sometimes we treat them as this, similarly this can also be applied for pre modern world a 13 year may be considered as a young adult.

[@camt9967]

Part of the problem is that we are taught to see knowledge -and society - as a progression, with us as the current pinnacle. Thanks for your great vids, Metatron

[@SeriouslyAwesome]

Pretty sure we have been regressing since the first "Enlightenment"

[@viktordoe1636]

Well the accumulated knowledge and technological advences are growing, that's in a sense prograssion. But there there is no guarantee that this is a continous trend or that it's true for every little niche of knowledge. The modern man probably "knows" different things than a medieval man, but not neccerarily smarter.

[@wedgeantilles8575]

@@SeriouslyAwesome Definitly. Imagine how we will be looked upon. A society that thinks gender is part of a social constract instead of biology. (However, being fat obviously is genetics...) Or what I have heard more and more in the last year: A normal woman can beat up a normal man in a fight. We have some amazing knowledge in some areas. And in others we are way dumber than we were just 50 years ago.

[@SeriouslyAwesome]

@@wedgeantilles8575 when everything is relative then there is no truth. The result is nihilism.

[@SomasAcademy]

I was taught that Christopher Columbus discovered that the world was round in one of the first few grades, then learned that this was wrong on the internet... and then I was told that Christopher Columbus discovered the Earth was round once again in 7th or 8th grade. That wasn't so long ago (I'm in university now), so I wouldn't be surprised if many kids are still being taught the myth today.

[@matsv201]

If i remember correctly my school book had the wrong version, my teacher probobly known about that and just skipped that part. Something something this text is not quite accurate. While i´m old.. we still talk about books written in the early 90-tys (possibly late 80-tys)

[@andypanda4927]

Always thought (as an adult) that Christofer Columbus must have had a gifted publicist I mean, look, Vikings discovered Eskimos and, possibly, coast dwelling originalamercans after settling Greenland and camping out on the NE seacoast.

[@matsv201]

@@andypanda4927 columbus is not know because he was the first to discover america, but because he was g The last. Aftet that the world changed.

[@TorianTammas]

Let me guess you must be in a country were Columbus is celebrated.

[@SomasAcademy]

@@TorianTammas Indeed, I'm from a country that has made Columbus part of our national mythology, to the point where teaching the actual facts about him and his voyage are a bit taboo.

[@anttibra]

A slight correction to Columbus part: his calculations were wrong partially because there was no standardized units. In our time we have easy when kilometers, miles, seconds, amperes etc. are all same everywhere. However in the past this wasn't the case. Mile in Orleans was different lengths than in Alexandria. If I remember correctly, Columbus got his numbers from book, but he didn't knew the unit was different compared to what people in his time and area used.

[@federicogiana]

Columbus took a measurement from an Islamic Persian scholar, al-Farghani, that measured a degree of latitude in 57,65 miles (correcting the previous measure of 60,0). Then he decided that the miles weren't Arabic miles (a geodetic unit of measure refined several times during history, but always more than -1900m- EDIT for typo: 1800m ): no, the Persian Alfraganius was surely Roman miles, likely the shortest measure of the mile ever codified (1450m). Columbus made so many of these "optimistic misrepresentations of the sources" (let's not forget he conveniently placed an imaginary island, Antilla, just halfway through his route so he could refill his stocks) that it simply cannot be a coincidence. Mistakes tend to cancel out: Columbus was being straight out delusional. Still an awesome navigator: his knowledge of trade winds saved his own skin and changed history.

[@kurokami5964]

@@federicogiana these "optimistic misrepresentations" happen so often to everyone so to attack him for that is somewhat petty he just wanted to be right because it would be his lifetime accomplishment and those that doesnt try cannot really accomplish anything most famous peoples in history are those that risked themselves tho obviously the schoolars obviously have to discourage him from doing so

[@helium-379]

@@kurokami5964 His contractual job was also to find and bring back wealth.

[@kooroshrostami27]

Didn't Columbus believe to his death that he actually discovered India from the other side, and that's the reason why we call native Americans "Indians" to this day?

[@nobilismaximus]

Hell, a USA foot and a UK foot aren’t the same length.

[@InSanic13]

The first story was definitely what I was taught in elementary school, but I learned the second later on.

[@st0rmrider]

Same here

[@pietersleijpen3662]

This, taught wrong at elementary school. I am quiet sure it was at high school that they taught differently, but I might have read/seen it on a documentary instead. 30 years ago, so my memory is a bit hazy.

[@KanchidoShinokyoufu]

In my Grade School we're taught somewhat of the Washington Irving's tale of Columbus, but it wasn't that the scholars were ignorant but rather that Columbus fudged his calculations so it'd seems that the trip would be shorter also that he believes that there was some mass in between India & Europe sailing west. Plus we had the painting of Columbus trying to convince Queen Isabella with a huge globe next to her in the throne room in our text books. As well with his misadventures in The New World. Mostly in the Caribbean.

[@mpetersen6]

In the History of the World according to Flip Wilson Chris set sail to discover were the Ray Charles records came from.

[@maddie9602]

I remember learning the wrong version in school as well. The more actual history I learn, the more I realize what absolute garbage my school history classes were. But that's a Kansas education for you.

[@hdnfbp]

Person 1: People on the medieval period were stupid and thought earth was flat Person 2: No they weren't and knew the earth was a sphere Medieval people: IDK MATE GET OUT AND LET ME TEND MY CROPS FOR THE WINTER

[@kakhakheviashvili6365]

Virgin flat earther: Earth is flatarinooooo Soyjack globe earther: nooooo, scietists say it's globe, nooooo Chad Medieval peasant: WIFE! It's harvest time already, bring me my scythe!

[@saanon9334]

Away with you, vile begger. IT'S ALMOST HARVESTING SEASON.

[@albertafarmer8638]

Please show us a well illustrated model of the globe with real bent water, rocks, sand, upside down buildings, cars et cetera. Greetings from Canada

[@ResistTheGreatReplacementEU]

Exactly. I think the vast majority of people just didn’t care or ever even thought about it.

[@MarkM2023]

Awesome video! Just an addition: Christian iconography from the Medieval period portrayed the Earth as a globe. There is the globus cruciger and the salvator mundi types of art. These artworks are displayed and seen and they show the Earth as an orb/sphere/globe.

[@dannyeccles1894]

Started watching this thinking, "has Shad made an error in a video! Surely not!" A couple of minutes in, "phew, Metatron is just adding MORE information". I do enjoy these channels.... Could have done with a response to Shad's attempt at those accents though. 😂

[@Yorick257]

well... Shad was partially wrong, most people didn't even think about the shape of the Earth in the early medieval period. So, no, some didn't know that the Earth is a sphere but they didn't know the Earth a disk either

[@yibraman1361]

I was taught the incorrect story back in a US elementary school in the late 2000s, but afterwards in middle and high school they dropped most of the nonsense. Although now that I think about it, when we spoke of Columbus this topic was rarely brought up and the emphasis was on the Colombian exchange and its impact on the America’s, Europe, and European colonialism.

[@spearfisherman308]

They just pointed out that columbus was just trying to find a better trade route to India

[@yibraman1361]

@Will Aden I think we may have went to different schools lol

[@AndrewTheFrank]

I think early on Columbus was used to push flat earth. Especially if you think about how prominent different christian groups were in American during the 80s and 90s. Create the mental association of Christian = Flat Earth. Once those died down the focus switched to denounce American for being a white imperialist country.

[@kylewilliams8114]

@Will Aden drop the con-servative propaganda. I was in elementary between 96 and 03. They taught how great Columbus was and didn't mention any of the facts surrounding his treatment of indigenous people.

[@moonboogien8908]

@@kylewilliams8114 and what are the facts surrounding his treatment of indigenous people?

[@markfergerson2145]

I attended elementary school in southern California in the late 1950s/early 1960s. I must have had particularly enlightened teachers because despite the Irving tale being mentioned, they credited Columbus and Isabella both with knowing the Earth was a globe, mentioned that Columbus' calculations were off due to him using the wrong units, and him expecting to find other land masses along the way to "the Indies".

[@player0851]

The reason the story is told that way is because there is a whole historiographic discourse in the bourgeois humanist interpretation of the past, specially between XVIII and XIX century, everything that was previous to the “scientific” societies of that age was regarded as inferior, including the so-called dark ages, based primarily on the supposed rupture brought by the renaissance.

[@jjkthebest]

"Imagine a..." Me: "Circle!" Metatron: "pizza!" Of course.

[@louisdisalvia8310]

I’ve never actually heard the “false” story before. I had only ever heard the “true” one albeit with a few minor differences. Maybe I just had good teachers as a kid lol

[@Philipp.of.Swabia]

….frederic Barbarossa reached the age of 70, his grandson nearly 60…“yeah all medieval people totally didn’t reach the age of 30“…

[@mpalfadel2008]

Most didn’t The few tend to prove the rule…

[@Philipp.of.Swabia]

@@mpalfadel2008 I’d say most people in the Middle Ages reached the age of 40 and older, but there were certainly many who passed away very early, especially warriors.

[@MehrumesDagon]

"or all died brfore 30" was because in that video shad was addressing pair of misconceptions: one about shape of earth, and other popular misconception coming from the idea of "average lifespan in the medieval ages was 30" which may or may not be correct, but as shad explained in the video there is alot of factors that will lower the "total average" making the number misleading.

[@linkofvev]

@@MehrumesDagon Biggest one being infant mortality.

[@manofcultura]

@@mpalfadel2008 no, no, no. Most adults lived to about 55-65 even in medieval era. It’s children that skew the average to 27. 33% of kids don’t make it past 10 back then, and before you turn 16 you’re still more vulnerable until you reach majority.

[@snuppssynthchannel]

Pffft, everyone knows the world is a disc being held up by four elephants, flying through space on a big sea turtle!

[@dangerdan2592]

It's turltes and elephants all the way down.

[@cappinjocj9316]

Millennium hand and shrimp

[@Vulgaels]

I see you are a man of culture

[@markusmencke8059]

Five Elephants, according to Pratchett, you Heathens! 😉

[@clintonr.6581]

The pratch

[@rathernotpick7183]

Fun fact: Life expectancy is affected by childbirth deaths and young child death. Therefore an adult is paradoxically expected to live past life expectancy. This is more pronounced in countries with poor healthcare such as Lesotho.

[@Tugela60]

The primary cause of death was things like dysentry, essentially the result of poor hygienge during food preparation. There would have been a lot of death from bacterial respiratory disease as well. This would have affected adults as well as children, so life expectancy was still low. Some people obviously got very old, but it was much less common then than now. Improved hygiene standards and the development of antibiotics have drastically changed adult life expectancy in the last 150 years or so.

[@blacktigerpaw1]

It's also is due to the age of the mother. Teenage mothers are more likely to suffer childbirth complications whereas young twenty somethings were the most fertile and more likely to survive.

[@blacktigerpaw1]

@@Tugela60 You imply those people didn't know how to keep basic hygiene

[@Tugela60]

@@blacktigerpaw1 Until relatively recently they did not. Not when it came to food and water. They had no idea what bacteria were, and believed that disease was caused by things like bad smells, magic and devine will.

[@Tugela60]

@@blacktigerpaw1 Actually teenaged brides was more of an upper class thing. Among peasants marriage tended to be later because of the financial implications of leaving a parental home.

[@rafox66]

I can confirm that I was taught the wrong story about Columbus at school just like how they taught us that he was the first to discover the Americas but the funny thing is that I already knew that at the time and when I told the teacher he didn't take me seriously because I was just a kid, I couldn't possibly be right.

[@TheHistoryofIndiaShow]

Only stumbled upon your channel last month and I wish I had found it years ago. More power to you sir, keep up the fantastic work!

[@Spot_Faceless-Soldier]

Timetraveler: peasant! What do you think is the shape of the planet? Peasant: shape of the _what?_

[@AkatsukiEmpire]

Which planet? Planet back then would mean the objects in the sky that moved differently from the stars. Generally, It would mean the classical Planets not including Earth: Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn but would include the Sun and the Moon. That's where the name came from, meaning wanderers.

[@forn8473]

More like: you wear weird clothes and you speak a language I can't understand. You must be French! We happen to be at war with the French you know, and we love to penetrate the French with all kind of tools! *maniacal laughter while drawing a sword*

[@Spot_Faceless-Soldier]

@@AkatsukiEmpire well, i felt like a random peasant wouldn't know that the traveller meant earth as in the planet, not the literal ground.

[@MarzoVarea]

@@AkatsukiEmpire To be precise planets were wandering stars, as opposed to the fixed stars. Dante's _Divina commedia_ ends: _The love that moves the sun and the other stars_ ( _l'amor che move il sole e l'altre stelle"_ ).

[@AkatsukiEmpire]

@@MarzoVarea Yes, you're right!

[@magister343]

I've read that there were only 2 or 3 known Flat-Earthers in the Patristic era, which we know because the other early Church Fathers often made fun of them or at best argued that being so wrong about that shouldn't be considered heretical since it is not relevant to matters of faith or doctrine. The most famous Christian Flat-Earther was Lactantius, an Arian heretic who was a close adviser of Emperor Constantine.

[@rorschach1985ify]

"early Church Fathers often made fun of them or at best argued that being so wrong about that shouldn't be considered heretical" I really would like a source for this because it sounds exactly like what I have been searching for, and it sounds hilarious.

[@silverhawkscape2677]

True. Even Early Church fathers knew of a round or at least not flat Earth.

[@Psiberzerker]

Yes, the Irving narrative is still told as history in schoolbooks, and classes in America, today. Keep in mind, this is the same guy that wrote Rip Van Winkle, and The Legend of Sleepy Hollow. So, it's basically like believing that spycraft works that way, because Ian Flemming wrote Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

[@vonfaustien3957]

Ian Fleming would have know far more about espionage and spying than Irving knew about geography and navigation given his background as a high ranking and influential member of British intligence during WW2

[@Psiberzerker]

@@vonfaustien3957 Yes, but he wouldn't tell the TRUTH about his work in the Secret Service. You're right, he palled around with Fairbairn, Sykes, Applegate, and WerBell, but he didn't write about that. James Bond was a farce, comedy. Everyone that knows how it actually worked were laughing the whole time.

[@vonfaustien3957]

@@Psiberzerker the best parodies come from a understanding and subversion of the source material

[@Psiberzerker]

@@vonfaustien3957 Oh yeah, non-spooks don't get half the jokes in the Bond books. Just the name Bond, the drink orders are an inside joke privy only to people that knew Flemming personally. (And uber nerds.) Same with Shakespeare. The vast majority of people miss the vast majority of jokes even in Tragedies like Julius Cesear. That whole dialog between the Centurion, and the Cobbler is a medley of puns for the Peanut Gallery.

[@Psiberzerker]

I'm not a retired spook, but if I was, I'd lie about it.

[@MsJavaWolf]

Very interesting video, I must admit it changed some of my faulty preconceptions. Maybe on a related note you could make a video about Galileo? From my understanding he was prosecuted because he challenged the geocentric world view, which now sounds odd, knowing that many medieval people hat a decent grasp on astronomy and were scientifically minded. I would also like to add that I think discussions like this one are the most important part of history. It is much more important for me to know how people actually felt in the past, what they thought and how they lived, rather than only memorizing dates of supposedly important events.

[@DamonNomad82]

While many astronomers in Galileo's time were highly intelligent and had a great understanding of the apparent motions of stars and planets as observed from earth (at least the ones that didn't require a telescope to see), they were firmly entrenched the the Ptolemaic view of the cosmos. This view, while inaccurate due to being based on the false premise that the earth was the center of the universe, was very logically valid. Claudius Ptolemy, a 2nd century Egyptian scientist, was a skilled mathematician, and had developed a brilliant, well-constructed set of explanations for the motions of stars and planets that seemed inconsistent with how they would be if the sun, moon and five known planets were orbiting the earth. The astronomers through the 14 centuries between Ptolemy's time and Galileo's time would have been fully educated with this view, and would have faced terrible peer pressure if they went against it. A century before Galileo, Polish astronomer Nicolai Copernicus had advocated the heliocentric model we now know to be true, and was ridiculed and ostracized for it. Galileo's great contribution to astronomy and science were due to the fact that he proved Copernicus right, as he was able to use early telescopes to observe processes that were previously unobservable.

[@robertmurphree7210]

in Galileo's time, Astronomers like Kepler believed in heliocentrism and published it, but they didn't make a big deal about, didn't get jailed. Galileo made fun of his friend, the current pope in a book, represented the pope as a character in the book called "Simplicio". The church had a distinction between rhetorical, philosophical discussions of a topics, and discussion of a proposition as in fact actual truth. The universities conducted such "theoretical discussions" for hundreds of years, many topics. in fact a very clear discussion of the mechanical equivalence of a stationary earth and rotating earth was published 2 centuries earlier. Galileo insisted that the heliocentric view was in fact true. In the 16nth century there was no proof that the earth moved, in the 17nth century an aberration of light was discovered that showed it, in 19nth the parallax showed the distance of the stars, so in 1630, 75 -200 years til actual proof was found. So brilliant arguments but no proof by galileo that might cause the uneducaged (galileo appealed to the uneducated public by books in italian) vs waiting til actual proof showed up.

[@robertmurphree7210]

Copernicus published his book after he died so he was not ostracized. During his lifetime people who read pre-published versions of his thesis encouraged him to publish it, in fact a Cardinal wrote him and offerred to pay for publishing it. Copernicus didn't fear the criticism of the professional astronomer, just comman literate person who could barely read who's said its against common sense. Copernicus dedicated the book to the current pope. not something you would do if it was ridiciuled.

[@Lurklen]

Very good point about asking a normal joe about the shape of the earth. Lot's of people are either not gonna have an opinion, or go with whatever the local lore tells them. If they or their granddad read a book, they might have an opinion, but otherwise they're busy people, and there's lots more relevant things to think about.

[@michaelkenner3289]

Yes and no. It's true that most people wouldn't care or consider it a relevant question. It's not true that they didn't have access to the information. Everyone went to church and priests had to be literate in Latin, so most of the population was only one step removed from the knowledge of the classical world. Depends a little on the time period and country of course. However as long as you accepted it through a Catholic lens information was available, just not necessarily useful or relevant enough for people to look for it

[@Lurklen]

@@michaelkenner3289 Interesting fact, not everyone went to church. There's a channel on here that reads out historical writings, and one was of an executioner from...I want to say the 1500's, it might be earlier or later by a bit. He comments that some of the criminals he executed had never even seen a church in person. I also never said they didn't have access, but many wouldn't. The priests knew how to read Latin, and some of the elite, but the lower classes often only heard Latin, and the language is far removed from the content of the classical philosophy. Even if the priests were educated in the knowledge of the classical world, which was not a certainty, that doesn't mean they were passing it along, or agreed with it. Knowledge relevant to the Church's doctrine was available, but even then it was far from homogeneous, with many locals having a disparity in views on a number of matters (hence the need for inquisitions and the Church's self policing so that the position of the Church was clear). The Church was also much more interested in educating people in specific matters, the nature of the globe was not something an average joe need be concerned with (or from a certain perspective, should be concerned with) nor something a priest to a low class settlement would likely have the education to reflect on. Not all priests were of equal knowledge, or equally educated, and sometimes the gulf was quite large. That's if a place had a priest at all, they might have some other Church functionary, or need to go to the next town over. Like I said, if someone or their granddad had an interest, and sought out a book (or spoke with someone on the topic) they could probably find out what they wanted to know, but it's even odds they're gonna get some other explanation, or just consider it an idle fancy and go about their lives. There's also the big economic disparity to think about. Many people were dealing with rather extreme limitations on income, and things like books were not a relevant expense. So while the knowledge is accessible, the likelihood of many people in that circumstance getting ahold of it is low, simply because it's not going to dove tail with their needs. Pair that with your other access being dependent on the personal bias and education/interest of your local priest, and you end up with a lot of people who just wouldn't know, and might not even have an opinion, but if they did wouldn't have an informed one.

[@gemmeliusgrammaticus2509]

I’m surprised you didn’t mention Pierre D’Aily whose “Imago Mundi” was a major source of Columbus’ underestimate of the size of the Western Ocean. If I’m not mistaken, I think Columbus’ copy of the Imago Mundi still exists with his own notes in the margin.

[@luispereztasso]

I'm just a young Peruvian archaeologist but damn this is such a good content, love your channel so much!

[@bubbasbigblast8563]

"Corners of the Earth" is a bad translation: it's more like "The Extremities of the Earth," conveying that people would come from the farthest points of the planet.

[@niupala1739]

"4 corners of the earth" also probably means the general directions North, South, East, and West

[@lloydgush]

It's not a bad translation. No, it doesn't mean literal corners, it's figure of speech.

[@fnors2]

It's also likely it came from thinking about maps. A map is generally a drawn on rectangle, and maps were often only about the nearby regions. So coming from the four corners of the world might also mean from the "edges of the maps" .

[@lloydgush]

@@fnors2 The reason why I believe is comes from searching in a room is the old expression "I'll search for x in the four corners of y., if I have to."

[@federicogiana]

@@lloydgush "No, it doesn't mean literal corners, it's figure of speech" Yep: the same Bible speaks of "the four corners of the head", too.

[@wedgeantilles1498]

Shad and you are like history professors. Taking each others lessons and expanding them back and fourth without rivalry or saltiness. Very nice.

[@rayz6307]

Love this community because of these kinds of videos and how you all respectfully either disagree or build upon each other! We need more of this in this day and age. You guys are awesome keep it up!

[@kaltengeist]

I'm sad to say that, in the History graduation that I'm undergoing, this same story is told as factual by several different professors. The only sources they show to support this tale, however, are some bibliographic works from american writters from the last and current centuries. But, if I am to defy these teachers, it's off to the pyre with me. Note that I'm speaking this as a Brazilian, with the university I study being one of the most respected in the region, besides being the most technologically advanced one. If only their machines could equal a functioning human brain....

[@probablythedm1669]

They would still produce erroneous results if they were given the same erroneous data. So I regret to inform you that machine brains would not help this issue. Though a machine might accept new data easier, depending on how that data selection is done. I am fun at parties! 🤣

[@zakazany1945]

Infelizmente no Brasil maioria esmagadora ou tem essa visão manjada da idade média ou o extremo oposto que beira o bizarro que chegam ao ponto de falar que a idade média foi o pináculo da civilização humana e deveríamos unir a igreja ao estado de novo. O tal filósofo tava mais do que certo quanto a muita "gente" ser como animais, seguindo mais pela intuição e sentimentos do que a razão.

[@rogeriopenna9014]

Manda o professor tomar no cu. Onde ele aprendeu isso? No desenho do Pernalonga

[@HolyPineCone]

What? This is just sad. How? Why?

[@rogeriopenna9014]

What is the University you are studying at?

[@marcello7781]

Debunking old myths, my favorite content! I think you should do a collab with Alessandro Barbero someday.

[@musicAle77]

That would be legendary

[@QalOrt]

I remember one of my professors telling how when Columbus went to the Portuguese king and said he wanted to sail around the world and give him the calculations, the Portuguese king balked as he was afraid that due to Columbus's calculations the ships would run out of food and he forbid this as he didn't want to send men to his death.

[@jonugalde1275]

It looks like a LOT of teacher confuse the history and myths of Magellan and Columbus voyages, sad but true. Let me tell you about the first myth which is at least at the same level of Columbus one, Magellan's intention was to sail around the globe. No it wasn't, at any part of the voyage. What made Juan Sebastian Elkano take the decision to end the trip sailing around the orb was in fact the dead of Fernando de Magallanes.

[@WilliamSpoehr]

Flat earth is making a comeback among Christian fundamentalists here in the US. You can't even say we're going backwards because our predecessors knew better.

[@NakedOwl501]

I can remember being taught the fictional story of Colombus in school, even in later grades. This was in the early 2000's before things got even more crazy and it became as much a social issue as one about historical fact. Tell you what, makes me want to keep my kids out of public school more and more.

[@bigmonkey1254]

Yeah, I remember being told that in elementary school. I was confused because I knew about people prior to that knowing that the earth was round. Also, the notion that seamen didn't know that the earth was round is frankly rediculous.

[@uncleporkinz3905]

THANK YOU for laying it all out. I am SO tired of explaining to people that anybody educated at all knew the world was spherical for a VERY LONG TIME, far before Christ for goodness sake! The myth that people thought the world was flat before Columbus JUST WILL NOT DIE!

[@kentuckycrittercamera9407]

If I remember correctly, my textbooks in the 1980s said that Christopher Columbus and the church both agreed the earth was round, but said Columbus had the earths size far smaller than it actually was.

[@andyjay729]

I don't remember if any of my teachers ever taught me "Columbus wanted to prove the world is round", but I do remember my family's 1990 edition of the World Book Encyclopedia said something like "A common modern misconception is that Columbus was trying to prove the world was round. He didn't have to. Most educated people in 15th century Europe already believed in a round Earth." Call that another example of "people from the past weren't as ignorant as we moderns think".

[@Lissbirds]

I learned that Columbus was told no by the Italians, so he went to Spain, and Queen Isabella said yes, and that he didn't realize how big the earth was.

[@zeppelinled3967]

well, the very first proof that they knew is the fact that Kings held a staff in one hand and an orb in another. Staff for authority, Orb for the world.

[@badgamemaster]

back in the 90s and the 2000s the fake Columbus was still taught in schools here in Denmark, but it was because they were still using old book from the 70s.

[@Sombre_gd]

To be honest, I never heard about scholars of Salamanca helping or thwarting Columbus' efforts to travel to India. At school we were tough he just convinced Isabella of Spain. I learned about existence of such group as scholars of Salamanca in my adult life, but only that they were proponents of free market, some kind of Renaissance economical libertarians.

[@hubertk7363]

I was surprised to learn that my history teacher believes this misconception about Columbus. To be clear - she is not a bad teacher, certainly above average!

[@alinalexandru2466]

Last time I was this early, Rome was still a Republic.

[@fransbuijs808]

Last time I was this early, Rome was still a little village on the Tiber.

[@mercianthane2503]

Last time I was early, Rome was sacked by the Chad Alaric.

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

So it was under Napoleon ? (One of his puppet states in Italy, replacing the Papal States, was named the Roman Republic)

[@tafazzi-on-discord]

I've never chuckled at a "last time I was this early" comment. You didn't change this streak.

[@Jinars.]

si Romania era Dacia

[@MrAchile13]

Matching armor with Shad? I see you're of man of culture as well.

[@maddie9602]

When I can afford it, I'm tempted to get a brigantine as well. I recently acquired my first piece of armor, a gambeson, which I'm sure will be great to LARP in when I break it in. But I really want a nice brig like Shad and Metatron have.

[@AnotherDuck]

I like that subtle way he has of saying, "I agree with this man of culture."

[@SpartanWolf222]

I do so *enjoy* when KZbin flags videos like this with fact-check notifications below the video, and then they just cite Wikipedia of all things. Even middle-school students know not to cite Wikipedia for a source, yet here we are in 2021.

[@InSanic13]

It's not ideal, but Wikipedia is what most people know, it's not terrible these days (in fact, I have had professors point out specific articles on Wikipedia as being really good), and it can link to good sources.

[@SpartanWolf222]

@@InSanic13 I’m aware Wikipedia isn’t all bad, and admittedly you can find some sources there to get started researching a topic thanks to the citations. However, I have a big problem with KZbin algorithms putting these labels/links to Wikis and treating them like warning labels of misinformation.

[@MrHarumakiSensei]

@@InSanic13 It peaked maybe a decade ago. It's getting worse these days. It'll change depending on the political climate rather than verifiable facts.

[@ssholum]

@@InSanic13 In many cases, it's fine, but it has a particular political bias, and KZbin just loves to plop Wikipedia references on hot-button political points (mostly involving a certain problem the world has been facing for the past year and a half). This is probably the least political "context" blurb I've seen. Apparently, KZbin thinks Flat Earthers are an influential force in society. Shows how out of touch they are.

[@zakazany1945]

@@ssholum Flatearthers usually are together with lots of anti-science conspirations, some of them with catastrophic consequences like anti-vaxxers. So I can see why KZbin do this, even if the solution is ineffective.

[@TheKlaun9]

You really had me for a second there when doing the stories and giving the context and me expecting lies straight away. For a moment I thought all I knew was wrong.

[@HoustonRLamb]

As an American student who just graduated high school last may, I can say that my school was pretty good when telling this story. In elementary, most teachers didn't confirm or deny until 6 grade and then we basically got the second story you told. also, my 10th grade/sophomore history teacher actually backtracked on this whole thing and this story alone was the reason I Believe 3 arguments I had with him, honestly, I had so many arguments over what and how he taught that they started to blur together.

[@materliliorum]

I am amazed to see how few thumbs up you became and how many accounts commented on having been taught the wrong story. I heard the story of Columbus being the only one in his time to believe the Earth was round in this video for the first time ever. However, I have heard sometimes that Galileo Galilei was the only one in his time (17th century) who believed that the Earth was round, so if the narrative was at all consistent, it should have meant that Columbus didn't know it at all… But I believe the narrative isn't even meant to be consistent.

[@fransbuijs808]

Science was always there in the Middle Ages. You should do a video about Frederick II of Hohenstaufen, a medieval scholar if ever there was one.

[@kristianferencik8685]

True but it was not called science. Back then physics was philosophy, biology was natural philosophy and chemistry was alchemy. Everything was building off of the works of the ancient greeks and this was not challenged till the age of enlightenment

[@crozraven]

But how much a popular thing is "science" in medieval time or dark ages compare to religious dogmas, myths, & superstition?

[@kristianferencik8685]

@@crozraven well it depended on the people, time period and location. Though even prior to the fall of the empire it was commonly agreed that religion and superstition was not a substitute for reason and logic. Its just what they thought to be science was sometimes incorrect. But that's no different to the present time where new discoveries sometimes replace commonly outdated beliefs in the field of science.

[@valentinmitterbauer4196]

Interestingly abrahamitic religions both helped sience and slowed it down. The one idea is "If god made the world, then everything in the world is touched by god, we can come closer to god when we observe and understand the world." This thought was common in the medieval arab world and in renaissance europe. The other position is that typical stereotype of the dogmatic theist rejecting new thoughts. This was fashioned in medieval europe and in the arab world after their golden age in medieval times.

[@Pijawek]

Knowing that the earth is round is essentialnto maritime navigation - so people knew it as soon as they started sailing.

[@wamken619]

for a second, I thought essentialnto was a real word

[@LORDCTHULHU738]

The world is a disc under a dome. The globalists have lied to you.

[@klobknocker65]

@@LORDCTHULHU738 Bait.

[@MarTin-fz3ns]

@@LORDCTHULHU738 It's actually a giant doughnut. The Bible lied to you.

[@_aullik]

@@LORDCTHULHU738 actually its more like a potato.

[@balazsszucs7055]

Not gonna lie, I did hear the first story. Can't even remember when I've first heard the second one, but was certain that was true one, ever since.

[@moto.roxtar]

The idea that the "medieval" people were ignorant, didn't bathe and that the life expectency was about 30, is mainly due to "enlightened" historians. They called it the " Dark Ages", to contrast with the "Renaissance" and "the Enlightement".

[@Siegbert85]

Funnily enough it did became en vogue to not bathe, but that was during the Baroque age.

[@minutemansam1214]

@@Siegbert85 And this was mostly the noble. Common peasants still bathed because they worked with the dirt, and people don't like being caked in dirt all the time.

[@Siegbert85]

@Leilani Bexley I believe this is mostly a misunderstanding of statistics... statistically people didn't get old because the child mortality was so high.

[@marctaco2624]

When I was in school, we were taught that columbus was the smartest and wisest man on earth. we also learned the disney version of pocohantas, so theres that. Fortunately, I learned from other sourcs what was true pretty quickly, but still... Our education system is terrible.

[@ozone2031]

Tell me why rafaël is italian: "Imagine a pizza"

[@michaelmoorrees3585]

I imagine it quite often. Usually when I'm hungry.

[@solinvictus1234]

It's Raffaello.

[@tafazzi-on-discord]

It's spelled Raffaello, what's "ë" doing there.

[@AnotherDuck]

If you like a stereotype people have about you, why not reinforce it?

[@tafazzi-on-discord]

@@AnotherDuck stereotyoes are underrated

[@mark_williamh1340]

Reply videos that seek to expand upon and enhance the original video? Hell yes. Nice work

[@StergiosMekras]

Was taught the second story in school, thanks to the teacher (Greece, late 80's - early 90's) but already had seen both versions in books.

[@stevensalad8125]

What is it with youtubers and informative open discussions on KZbin lately? I like it

[@whyjnot420]

One thing I really hate is the misunderstanding about what a dark age really is. A dark age is dark because we have relatively little insight into the period in question (relative to the classical age) due to things like stone buildings not being built as much, with the use of wood leading to less remains. In other words, it is dark to the eyes of history.

[@bigmonkey1254]

I mean, "The Dark Age of Technology" in Warhammer 40000 is also called "The Golden Age of Technology" for that reason. It was a time of great prosperity but the Age of Strife that followed was so cataclysmic that vast amounts of knowledge and development from that time were lost. To the point where no one in the setting actually knows exactly what it was like.

[@whyjnot420]

@@bigmonkey1254 Yep. For all of the utter BS that comes out of Games Workshop, they of all people understood what was actually meant by historians using the term "dark age". I point this out constantly when people are talking about that aspect of 40k lore but don't understand why the _dark_ age was the high water mark of humanity. Not many people seem to even care why it matters, while at the same time they mourn the loss of STC tech and I just shake my head in dismay. edit: There are at least a handful of beings in the time of 40k that were around during the dark age of technology. At the very least there is the Emperor who was there for it. Also in theory there should be some sporadic activity from Necrons. In 30k there would have been at least a few more still alive. E.g. Malcador.

[@jeremyandrews3292]

Yeah, I actually think the way a lot of ignorant people thought about the Earth in the past might have been sort of like how we think of the universe now. They didn't know where the edge was and vaguely thought perhaps it goes on forever in all directions, not imagining it being a limited, specific object with definable boundaries at all. From that perspective, the sea would seem like some infinite, scary frontier where you never know what you'd find, and sailors would seem like... well, astronauts.

[@Cato229]

I learned the false Columbus story in school. I had to teach myself the truth through personal research. Many things are like this.

[@Raleyg]

A medieval monk gave probably the most obvious proof that the Earth is round: It explains why we can see further from higher elevation

[@RaimoHöft]

Also you can always see the spherical form if you live on the ocean or any large body of water, especially if there is a big peninsula stretching out into the distance and "diving" under the horizon like the big ships do if you watch them sailing away.

[@Raleyg]

​@@RaimoHöft This is just a theory but most people in the US who seem to believe in the flat earth are people from rural communities right? Maybe in addition to not having the best education they also rarely get to actually see the ocean

[@NemisCassander]

@@Raleyg This is either a language issue or a gross overgeneralization. At least in American English, 'rural' has no connotation with 'inland' as opposed to 'coastal'. E.g., most of Florida, including where I grew up, is quite rural (i.e., not urbanized), and all of it is quite coastal. I'll grant that most large cities in many countries are either on seacoast or have access to the sea, but that is not quite the same. I'd also want to get some data on the correlation between living in a rural area and being a Flat-Earther before I admit that proposition.

[@Cacastacio]

@@NemisCassander rural areas TEND to have lower education rates, so probably that. Atleast in my country and how It was taught to me.

[@Deus0tiosus]

A comparison I like to use when this topic arises goes like this: "Common medieval people did not think about what shape the Earth was, just like common people today do not think about what shape the universe is."

[@davidenriqueamorochodaza9362]

they thought me history number 1 in the school, it allways seemed a bit off for me, but both history and geography teachers kept teaching us this! Thank you so much Metatron! love your work

[@reactivearmour5126]

I was taught the false Columbus story in school. Like I always say: I would be a very ignorant person if I relied on my school education. Fortunately, I’ve always loved reading on my own so I’ve known the true story for a couple of decades now.

[@reactivearmour5126]

You and I probably had very similar irritating experiences in school; the only exception seems to be that, in my case, military history was almost completely ignored. Most egregiously, I don’t ever remember being taught economic history. I now teach history myself at a private school and while I do have my own perspective, I do try to present both sides of historical issues and let students make up their own minds. I also strongly concentrate on economic and military history.

[@bleflar9183]

Time Traveler: Hello Medieval peasant. Earth is accually round, and bathing won't kill you, no need to thank me! Medieval Peasant: *(dies from modern diseases that the time traveler brought with him)*

[@austincummins7712]

Which he got from the screen of the iPhone that you gave him, where he was watching KZbin Flat Earth videos and laughing. Alright, that was a bit too try hard...

[@josephradley3160]

That's evil. I like it.

[@peterang6912]

And then the rats get the blame ...

[@onewyrdviking]

Yeah the fake Christopher Columbus story was taught to me when I was in elementary school in the USA (might be different in other parts of the world, I know we are bit screwed in our education department). The worst part is that it was taught multiple times throughout the grade levels, being expanded upon all the way up till freshman year in highschool.

[@Disgruntled_Dave]

It was taught to me as well. However, the same teacher that told us Columbus discovered the Americas pulled a little whoopsie by assigning me a report on Amerigo Vespucci. I don't remember whether Vespucci was actually the first European to discover the "new" world, but it did result in me contradicting the curriculum in front of the whole class and having sources to back it up.

[@uovaeasparagi]

Great video, but I think it would have been fairer to mention Alessandro Barbero (as you did in previous videos) as your main source, since his lesson on this topic was clearly your inspiration. Good job anyway

[@Mkninja002]

I remember telling my grandma (born in a countryside) that there are people who believe that the Earth is flat. She was like "What do you mean, flat? What about mountains?"

[@ZendikarMage42750]

The first story was definitely the one I learned in middle school. Thanks American text books!

[@RyuuKageDesu]

I remember "learning" the first Christopher Columbus story in school, along with how nice he treated the indigenous people, in school. I learned the other story, during the same time, from my Native American grandmother. My history teacher that year "loved" when I raised my hand.

[@lloydgush]

She was caribian? (or is)

[@septimus7524]

Well here's the thing... The first one is *mostly* right about Columbus's OWN treatment of natives. Columbus HIMSELF tended to treat them with kindness, noting in his own writings how he wished to SUBJEGATE them, NOT enslave them. He wanted to turn them into subjects of the crown, not whip the fuck out of them and force them to work. Columbus himself was never in the new world for very long periods of time (makes sense after all, he'd have to constantly return to Europe to report back to Spain since phone lines weren't a thing..) It was his Spanish subordinates who ended up doing all that horrible stuff. Since he wasn't even in the Caribbean very often nor for very long at a time, nor did he have the power to stand up to a bunch of Spanish generals and their loyal soldiers. Good luck asking the King of Spain to do anything about it either, Columbus wasn't Spanish, and the King of Spain certainly isn't going to slap his military leaders on the wrists for any reason.

[@iainlovejoy2135]

This is simply untrue. Columbus was removed as governor of Hispaniola by the Spanish crown and returned to prison in Spain for brutality towards the local inhabitants. Reported crimes included rape, murder, torture and mutilation as well as enslaving the population to mine gold in such brutal conditions a third of those enslaved and set to work died within 6 months.

[@RyuuKageDesu]

@@septimus7524 Ultimately, you are correct, in that the people he brought with him were undoubtedly worse. But, as we even see today the most public figure, gets the most generalized blame. Native Nations across the entire content cary the anguish brought by "his" ships, not just the Caribbeans, @lloydgush . She was equal parts Blackfoot and Sioux, actually.

[@RyuuKageDesu]

Thank you, @@iainlovejoy2135.

[@uberfeel]

Lol even ancient greeks didn't believe the earth was flat.

[@Segalmed]

They believed in a lot of possible shapes (those pre-Socratic philosophers had a lot of strange ideas) but most got abandoned by the classical era.

[@DubyaDeeEight]

@@Segalmed the Earth is shaped like a Tetrahedron dont @ me

[@Madara-rz8hv]

Thts not true the average greek never believed in a globe it was a very obscure and long forgotten theory until rediscovered by the Jesuits and the Freemasons. Christianity didnt purge a knowledge of the globe from the masses it was simply unknown and so when you say "even the greeks knew" thts simply a lie or a statement made from total ignorance

[@minutemansam1214]

@@Madara-rz8hv I mean, this is false. It was common knowledge that the Earth was round long before Christianity was a thought in someone's head. The Romans already knew this. And where do you think they got this knowledge from?

[@Madara-rz8hv]

@@minutemansam1214 wrong

[@verv5737]

Whenever I have seen people debunk the myth that people in the medieval period though the Earth was round, I have always found the arguments incomplete because they only seem to talk about the fact that the educated people of the time knew that it is round and I'd be left wondering if that information made its way to common people. Thank you for addressing this!

[@vickielittleton6373]

I was definitely taught in school that medievals mostly thought the world was flat, but Columbus and a few other 15th-Century explorers thought it was round. However even medieval art does not bear this out

[@jonathanbetenbender307]

Well when my great grandmother went to highschool Latin and Calculus were required to graduate. I find it absolutely egotistical that modern people think they're so much more intelligent than medieval people; as if the technology around them somehow proves that. There has has likely been very little shift in the innate intellect of people over the past four thousand or so years, and I think it is only hubris that tells people otherwise.

[@i-never-look-at-replies-lol]

This is so wrong. All medieval people died at the age of 27 falling off the side of the planet in boats trying to find land's end, as was customary back then. The only reason we don't have medieval people now is because they all went extinct doing exactly that.

[@ungeimpfterrusslandtroll7155]

That the four corners imply flatness in the Bible is a misinterpretation, best example is four corners of the head which was also said and a head is obviously not flat.

[@fodassenaosei]

I'm a simple Portuguese I see Portugal mencioned in a Metatron video I give a thumbs up!

[@GrouchierBear]

I had a book from the sixties that briefly talked about Columbus and tried to split the difference, saying that "some people even dredged up the old claim that the earth was flat!" as though it was part of a unified conspiracy to stop Columbus or something. In elementary school in the eighties, an animated version of the Irving story was played in our class as our lesson on Columbus. We immediately moved on to Jamestown and Plymoth after that.

[@AndrewTheFrank]

The first story is the story I learn in public school, the story that you'd see presented on public television and the story pushed by internet atheists. The second story is what I learned from the Catholic Church.

[@christophercano4809]

I learned that without needing the catholic church lol

[@christophercano4809]

@SNES Nes Religious people spread fairy tales lol

[@christophercano4809]

@SNES Nes Well, if you believe in a god that is all powerful then you can't really tell what's a fairy tail and what isn't. The only scientifically congruent view is agnostic atheism

[@christophercano4809]

@SNES Nes That's why the era that focused the most on god, the medieval era, was so great, such a great time to live in lol. Religion didn't prevent the worst wars to happen or the worst crimes to be committed. Plus the correlation between peace and religion is proportionally inverse, meaning, more religion, less peace, look at history and look at the safest and most peaceful places right now, they're not the most religious ones.

[@christophercano4809]

@SNES Nes Japan has a really strong "society first" culture, they really put the society before the individual, so maybe that has something to do with it. And again, there's a correlation between more religion - less peace, and less religion - more peace, look at history and look at the safest and most peaceful countries today, Netherlands, Norway, etc.

[@manguy01]

13:03 Even that Bible verse (Isaiah 40:22) talks about "The circle of the earth." This directly contradicts the literal interpretation of "the four corners of the earth." Circles don't have corners. It's clearly meant to be a metaphorical way to say "extremity." A similar phrase is translated (Job 37:3), "He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the *_ends_* of the earth." That Hebrew word was actually *_"wings."_* That doesn't mean that the Earth has wings. It means the farthest breadth of the earth. For example, this same word is used to describe the end of a skirt or garment.

[@jehl1963]

Regarding Isaiah 41:9, the Masoretic text (translated into English) reads "Though whom I have taken hold of from the ends of the earth, And called thee from the uttermost parts thereof..." The phrase "from the ends" is from Hebrew מִקְצ֣וֹת which implies a termination from Strongs Exhaustive Concordance, while "uttermost parts" is from Hebrew וּמֵאֲצִילֶ֖יהָ which implies an extremity or a "Chief man" from the same source. The "Chief man" thing sounds strange until you look at the only other occurances of the root of the Hebrew word (אָצִיל) in the Bible. In Exodus 24:11 the same root is used "and upon the NOBLES of the children...", As such Isaiah 41:9 reads "Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof". So now we're no longer looking at the corners of the earth, but at those in charge of the of the lands at the end of the Earth.

[@minutemansam1214]

But the Bible describes the Earth as being surrounded by a dome called the firmament, and rains are made when water outside the firmament (the same waters that caused the flood) trickle through holes in the firmament.

[@alexh4436]

I have always believed (without actual data) that Columbus knew that his calculations were wrong but needed to sell the idea to Isabella. I believe that he just wanted to get the ships, trust in God and hope for the best. I believe this because Columbus was an excellent navigator and he actually had been to Iceland where he may have known about the Vineland saga. In short, I think Columbus was more daring than ignorant in his sell job to the queen.

[@marcoatzori92]

this is actually a nice idea!

[@alexh4436]

@@marcoatzori92 Thanks. I never could accept the fact that Columbus vastly underestimated the size of the world. He clearly understood navigation as evidenced by the fact that he had no trouble putting into the Azores and Lisbon on his return leg, and I can't imagine somebody that skilled wouldn't have a good idea of the size of a degree of latitude and, hence, the circumference of the world. I am not a historian so I could be completely wrong, but it would be nice to see an actual historian look into this.

[@Jacob-pu4zj]

@@alexh4436 Someone above already mentioned "Imago Mundi" by Pierre d'Ailly. Columbus seems to have gotten most of his measurements from there. Essentially, he overestimated the distance Japan and the Canaries were from their respective mainlands in terms of latitude (15° each if I recall correctly), thought the Eurasian landmass was a full 180° across, and _possibly_ saw some Inuit wash up on shore in Ireland, giving him the idea to go around the other way. I believe he was aiming for the East Indies (Indonesia and the Phillipines), rather than India proper as Metatron stated, so he wasn't quite that wrong. He did actively fudge the distances in his logbooks to keep his crew's morale from dropping. Also, he ate an iguana and claimed it tasted like chicken, so apparently he was the first person to realise we are in the Matrix.

[@82dorrin]

You kind of touched on another Shadiversity video about literacy at the time. A lot of medieval people COULD read and write, just not in Latin.

[@OnlineHellMaster]

I vividly remember in 2nd grade our teacher told us the story of Columbus being the only one to think the Earth was round

[@kobaltapollodorus8922]

Seeing how the 'dark ages' were actually far more enlightened than we usually think really puts the idea of the Renaissance and Enlightenment in a whole new context.

[@mr.grimstone7159]

Technology isn't the reason that the period is called "the Dark Ages", though. It's because of the moral atrocities, continuous persecution of other belief systems, execution of people for "blasphemy", the witch hunts, the inquisitions, the crusades, etc, etc. This is the issue with videos of this general type: they're addressing a common misconception, but not the actual reason why we call this period like this.

[@minutemansam1214]

@@mr.grimstone7159 That's not why it's called the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages were coined as a term to describe Europe between the fall of Rome and the start of the Renaissance because the 'light' of Rome went out (and the time of the Roman Empire was seen as a golden age of enlightenment) and wouldn't be replaced until the light of the renaissance. Moral atrocities like these have ALWAYS been committed throughout all recorded history. They aren't unique to the Middle Ages. They didn't really execute people for 'blasphemy' unless they were unrepentant, same with witch craft. The Catholic Church understood that most peasants were relatively uneducated in religious matters so would generally teach them that their practices/views were heretical and gave them a chance to repent. Witch hunting was also mostly done in the Early Modern Period, after the Renaissance. And it was mostly done by protestants. The idea that the Catholic Church went on regular witch hunts is a myth. The inquisitions were also mostly done during the Renaissance and Early Modern Period. The Crusades weren't actually called Crusades, and they didn't happen very often. Modern historians avoid using the term Dark Ages to describe the Medieval Period. Whenever it is used it is generally used to describe the period between the deposition of Romulus and the raise of Charlemagne. The Migration Period, due to the connotation that the period was especially tumultuous and violent.

[@ravenguard0098]

@@minutemansam1214 correct me if I'm wrong another reason some people call it the dark age is that there are very little records to that period that survived(or not yet discovered) As for the witch hunting trials I'll agree with you there the spanish Inquisition actually investigates the case made and punishes the persecutor if found claiming false evidences. Also I think they were one of the first organizations to find out torturing the convicted is very counter productive

[@Jacob-pu4zj]

@@mr.grimstone7159 Witch hunts and the Inquisition are post-Dark Age events. As Ravenguard has already stated, the period is called the Dark Ages partly as Enlightenment propaganda, but also partly because we have fewer records about the time period between the sack of Rome and the crowning of Charlemagne as Holy Roman Emperor than we do the time periods directly preceding it and following. To claim it was a time of uniquely evil human behaviour is the height of stupidity.

[@washingtonradio]

I knew Columbus miscalculated the diameter, hence circumference, of the earth rather badly. I less certain if it was deliberate or accidental, if convenient for his purposes. Also, I had read many years ago the ancient Greeks had a tolerably accurate estimate of the diameter of the earth. I think it was within a few percent of the actual value. Medieval scholars were aware of this estimate.

[@NetAndyCz]

There were even some Greeks who proposed the heliocentric model and estimated the size of the Moon and Sun and their distances (some were bit off though).

[@Marky-Mark1337]

Is the 4 corners of the earth could mean: North, South, East, and West?

[@lloydgush]

No, it means "corners" it's a figure of speech. It's just a way to say everywhere. It does seem to reference the 4 cardinal directions, but that's part of the "everywhere" meaning. But it probably originates as an analogy to searching things in a room.

[@AndreasSweden]

Bubba's Big Blast said in a comment just above yours Quote; "Corners of the Earth" is a bad translation: it's more like "The Extremities of the Earth," conveying that people would come from the farthest points of the planet. End quote. Thought it might help

[@joellaz9836]

I have a hard time believing it wasn’t a figure of speech since it comes from revelation, which was written in ancient Roman times (first century), when people already knew the earth was a globe and the writer would have known it too.

[@ragnkja]

Most likely, or the corners of a map. I’ve never heard of any mythology that believed that the Earth was a quadrilateral. It’s always a disc or a ball.

[@jjkthebest]

What I knew about Columbus was somewhere in the middle. I knew that Columbus' calculations were wrong. I didn't think the academics thought the earth was flat. I knew the Spanish crown rejected his proposal. I didn't think about it enough to realise the rejection came from his incorrect calculations.

[@clarencepsaila4743]

I loved this video! If you can please, expand upon this theme by comparing education levels between classical times (Greece, Rome, Asia) to Medieval times! It would be so interesting. Also the education itself must have changed!

[@crozraven]

What about the ancient misconception of earth/world being the center of solar system instead of the sun? when such misconception already very popular since ancient greek?

[@TheSalMaris]

Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the earth before Medieval times--way before.

[@robertlehnert4148]

Per Daniel Boorstin's The Discoverers, the Clerical academics at Isabella's Court used Erosthones calculations over the the estimate Columbus relied (and bias preferred)

[@IsaBilal]

"The popularity of such a book really tells us a lot about the thirst of knowledge the people in the medieval period had and how much people loved reading." Cancels Netflix, Prime and Disney+ subscriptions....

[@shaynethechangingman322]

I remember in school we were taught the correct story, but a lot of after school "educational" shows told the false version.

[@Veo87]

I was in school in the U.S. throughout the 90's and we were taught the wrong story of Columbus, that he knew the Earth was round and no one believed him, so he had to prove them wrong. I've already learned that was false years ago, but it's still crazy to me that that's what I learned in my early times in school. Excellent video. One suggestion is to tell us what years these historical writers you quote lived. Augustine, for example, lived in the 300's - 400's A.D., but I don't think you mentioned that in the video.