Meet Celsus: The Man Who Shook Early Christianity to Its Core! | Dr. M. David Litwa

[@mythvisionTV]

Sign up for the Celsus course with M. David Litwa here - mythvisionpodcast.com/celsus

[@jboss1073]

What a New Year gift for us pagans. Thank you both.

[@waderogers]

Will definitely be enrolling in THIS course! One thought on why the Jesus story ends with 'the god' being crucified and Dionysus not being killed is that Jesus had to fulfill the needs of YHWH as a sacrificial lamb, since the Jerusalem temple had been destroyed and sacrifices could no longer be held there, so YHWH had to re-institute the old child sacrifice offering that he required in the Old Testament in Exodus 22: "‘You shall not delay to offer from the fullness of your harvest and from the outflow of your presses. The firstborn of your sons you shall give to me. You shall do the same with your oxen and with your sheep: seven days it shall be with its mother; on the eighth day you shall give it to me." Except this time, it was God who was sacrificing not just his 'firstborn son' but also his ONLY son (not like he was going to have another son after Jesus). At least the people in the O.T. who sacrificed their firstborn son had the possibility of birthing another son if they felt like it!

[@felicciasc]

He saw the evil of Fahrenheit

[@annestephens9631]

451 = dea O my giddy g_ddess! 🤷🏼‍♀️

[@troystevens1976]

Thanks, I’ve been wanting to learn more about Celsus. Some of his writings mirror so many modern Atheist arguments and others I haven’t considered.

[@lucharward]

what sofwear do you use for your online interviews? // great work by the way - i am subscribed for years - i have a very small french language youtube - but i am not very well equiped, i was wondering what sofwear you use for such nice online interviews

[@BenSolomonIM]

It looks like he might be using OBS with Zoom. not sure what he uses for editing - Da Vinci Resolve is available for free for individuals to use for editing.

[@winstonbarquez9538]

Justin Martyr made this comparison too to demostrate the superiority of Christianity to mythology. Myth primarily means the story of a god. Christianity is a myth because it is the story of god--the one and true God in the person of Jesus.

they all claim to be the true god with just as little evidence

[@jjw56]

Bout time you resurrected celsus!!

[@rasunsoter]

Go sign up for the course. And every other course he can muster from the experts. Derek gotta make that MONEY!

[@decades5643]

What's with this comment section? The asylum has internet access.

[@MasonMorgen]

Would you ever do a video on the origins on the cult of Wōðnaz/Odin as a Roman "cargo cult"?

[@NarutoUzumakiofficial]

It's so interesting to think about all of this. I wasn't really raised religious, or Christian. I went to church sometimes, and somewhat see myself as a Christian (in the cultural sense at least ) but so much of the modern church is not true, the early church didn't believe in it and like discussions like this one really makes you think. I think religion corrupts what Jesus if described to be true his mission and message was hijacked by religious people. It's sad. I think God is real but no religion is true

[@EdwardM-t8p]

19:10 The Gospel of John is also responding to the passage that Jesus was caught at 4 am in a public park with a naked teenage boy whom the arresting party tried to detain too. He may also be responding to the first except of Secret Mark where Jesus raises a youth and six nights later they spend the night together. Hence the Lazarus and the beloved disciple passages.

[@cygnustsp]

I've seen that background used by several people, the stone fireplace and the piano. Guess it's available online.

[@David-j8v5p]

I believe everything that was written on in the New Testament the thing's only that aren't based on contradictions. But not the stories that are written differently. Take for example the request from a mother written on in Matthew and the request of James and John written on in Mark that are written the same but written mentioning that SAME exact event happening twice

[@DeaconBeanCooter]

Litwa!

[@jmc8076]

Some on YT w/theist back grounds confirm their own theories on biblical text meaning w/the close comparisons of diff cultures/areas. Also Jesus and one Byzantine emperor are very similar incl images. Edit: history of Halloween/ Samhain would be good to cover next year.

[@MarmaladeINFP]

The Gospel story is surprisingly anti-climactic. The writers had no sense of compelling narrative. It ends without Jesus having any grand speech. It's a rather skimpy story. And as Jesus supposedly is the omnipotent creator of the universe. Jesus' behavior doesn't make any sense. Some scholars have noted that the writing itself is extremely low quality. It's not what would be expected from people who are divinely inspired. Based on what? Based on other proclaimed inspired texts that are considered of high literary quality. Many famous prophets, spiritual teachers, etc had great capacity of language. That is often a defining feature of supposed inspired writings. Many followers praise their holy texts based on the quality of it. That is seen as evidence of it's legitimacy and merit.

[@whitemountainapache3297]

Yeah, it's not like the last ten minutes of Sam Peckinpah's The Wild Bunch, is it?

[@matthewkopp2391]

Jesus never claims to be the omnipotent creator of the Universe. He calls himself the son of man. But the general theme in the Gospels is who is he really. You can see this in all four but especially in Mark and John. In Mark it’s an open question, in John it is a conclusion. John comes closest. Because it is implied that he is the Logos and the Logos is God. But this idea is far more precise. The thesis of John is Jesus is the imminent divine manifested in a body. At the end Thomas calls him God. But if Jesus is God what are they worshiping really? The divine as it is manifested in the creation and in a person. But not everyone who read and regarded John important did not conclude Jesus was God. That conclusion became dogma in 324 AD. But the majority of Christians did not believe that. They had a long list of conclusions. Origen of Alexandria for example concludes that he is a divine manifestation but not a unique one as we will all eventually be the same divine manifestation without canceling out our unique personality.

[@dougmasters4561]

'Not what you would expect from people who are divinely inspired' Uhhhh, based on what?

@@dougmasters4561 you would expect god to at least be in the ballpark with Virgil and Ovid. He wasn't.

[@dougmasters4561]

Expect this based on what?

[@monicaballyurban5786]

There have always been a few enlightened people like Jesus, and there always will be.

[@epicofatrahasis3775]

*Why Jesus?* Jesus has been held in high regard by Christians and non-Christians alike. Regardless of whether he existed in history, or whether he was divine, many have asserted that the New Testament Christ character was the highest example of moral living. Many believe that his teachings, if truly understood and followed, would make this a better world. Is this true? Does Jesus merit the widespread adoration he has received? Let’s look at what he said and did. *Was Jesus Peaceable And Compassionate?* The birth of Jesus was heralded with “Peace on Earth,” yet Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to send peace: I came not to send peace but a sword.” (Matthew 10:34) “He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.” (Luke 22:36) “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.” (Luke 19:27. In a parable, but spoken of favorably.) The burning of unbelievers during the Inquisition was based on the words of Jesus: “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:6) Jesus looked at his critics “with anger” (Mark 3:5), and attacked merchants with a whip (John 2:15). He showed his respect for life by drowning innocent animals (Matthew 8:32). He refused to heal a sick child until he was pressured by the mother (Matthew 15:22-28). The most revealing aspect of his character was his promotion of eternal torment. “The Son of man [Jesus himself] shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:41-42) “And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.” (Mark 9:43) Is this nice? Is it exemplary to make your point with threats of violence? Is hell a kind, peaceful idea? *Did Jesus Promote “Family Values”?* “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26) “I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.” (Matthew 10:35-36) When one of his disciples requested time off for his father’s funeral, Jesus rebuked him: “Let the dead bury their dead.” (Matthew 8:22) Jesus never used the word “family.” He never married or fathered children. To his own mother, he said, “Woman, what have I to do with thee?” (John 2:4) *What Were His Views On Equality And Social Justice?* Jesus encouraged the beating of slaves: “And that servant [slave], which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luke 12:47) He never denounced servitude, incorporating the master-slave relationship into many of his parables. He did nothing to alleviate poverty. Rather than sell some expensive ointment to help the poor, Jesus wasted it on himself, saying, “Ye have the poor with you always.” (Mark 14:3-7) No women were chosen as disciples or invited to the Last Supper. *What Moral Advice Did Jesus Give?* “There be eunuchs which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.” (Matthew 19:12) Some believers, including church father Origen, took this verse literally and castrated themselves. Even metaphorically, this advice is in poor taste. If you do something wrong with your eye or hand, cut/pluck it off (Matthew 5:29-30, in a sexual context). Marrying a divorced woman is adultery. (Matthew 5:32) Don’t plan for the future. (Matthew 6:34) Don’t save money. (Matthew 6:19-20) Don’t become wealthy. (Mark 10:21-25) Sell everything and give it to the poor. (Luke 12:33) Don’t work to obtain food. (John 6:27) Don’t have sexual urges. (Matthew 5:28) Make people want to persecute you. (Matthew 5:11) Let everyone know you are better than the rest. (Matthew 5:13-16) Take money from those who have no savings and give it to rich investors. (Luke 19:23-26) If someone steals from you, don’t try to get it back. (Luke 6:30) If someone hits you, invite them to do it again. (Matthew 5:39) If you lose a lawsuit, give more than the judgment. (Matthew 5:40) If someone forces you to walk a mile, walk two miles. (Matthew 5:41) If anyone asks you for anything, give it to them without question. (Matthew 5:42) Is this wise? Is this what you would teach your children? *Was Jesus Reliable?* Jesus told his disciples that they would not die before his second coming: “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom” (Matthew 16:28). “Behold, I come quickly.” (Revelation 3:11) It’s been 2,000 years, and believers are still waiting for his “quick” return. He mistakenly claimed that the mustard seed is “the least of all seeds” (Matt. 13:32), and that salt could “lose its savour” (Matthew 5:13). Jesus said that whoever calls somebody a “fool” shall be in danger of hell fire (Matthew 5:22), yet he called people “fools” himself (Matthew 23:17). Regarding his own truthfulness, Jesus gave two conflicting opinions: “If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true” (John 5:31), and “Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true” (John 8:14). *Was Jesus A Good Example?* He irrationally cursed a fig tree for being fruitless out of season (Matthew 21:18-19, and Mark 11:13-14). He broke the law by stealing corn on the Sabbath (Mark 2:23), and he encouraged his disciples to take a horse without asking permission (Matthew 21). The “humble” Jesus said that he was “greater than the temple” (Matt 12:6), “greater than Jonah” (Matthew 12:41), and “greater than Solomon” (Matthew 12:42). He appeared to suffer from a dictator’s “paranoia” when he said, “He that is not with me is against me” (Matthew 12:30). Why Jesus? Although other verses can be cited that portray Jesus in a different light, they do not erase the disturbing side of his character. The conflicting passages, however, prove that the New Testament is contradictory. The “Golden Rule” had been said many times by earlier religious leaders. (Confucius: “Do not unto others that you would not have them do unto you.”) “Turn the other cheek” encourages victims to invite further violence. “Love thy neighbor” applied only to fellow believers. (Neither the Jews nor Jesus showed much love to foreign religions). A few of the Beatitudes (“Blessed are the peacemakers”) are acceptable, but they are all conditions of future reward, not based on respect for human life or values. On the whole, Jesus said little that was worthwhile. He introduced nothing new to ethics (except hell). He instituted no social programs. Being “omniscient,” he could have shared some useful science or medicine, but he appeared ignorant of such things (as if his character were merely the invention of writers stuck in the first century).

@@epicofatrahasis3775 If you throw out 9/10ths of what Jesus allegedly said and did, he was a nice guy, but not very original.

[@DanielGarza-fc1no]

Jesus was a vampire, drink my blood, have inmortal life, Jehová says, don't eat blood

[@EdwardM-t8p]

Sell-sus? No, it's Kell-sus.

[@Headroomtalking]

There's a book someone wrote in rebuttal to Celsus in 248 A.D. lol None of these topics are new Let us all live as we see fit For we will all die no matter how lofty our ideas seem 😂 It is the reaper who wins Which one we shant know til he knock on our door ❤

[@xaviervelascosuarez]

Are you referring to Origen's "Contra Celsum"?

@@xaviervelascosuarez He's referring to Blue Oyster Cult

[@andreaurelius45]

...this just show that these two- AND Celsus, DO NOT understand WHY. Don't follow these folks. They don't know a damned thing about what they are talking about.

When the Greeks conquered Kemet which they called Egypt. They created a hybrid parental deity in order to combine Egyptian mythology with Greek mythology. So they combined the Egyptian God Thoth with the Greek God Hermes. They called him Hermes Trismegistus III. Who was known as… “The Thrice Great.” He was famous for triumphing over the season of death. Which is what the number 3 almost always symbolizes in World Mythology. Isn't this what the Flavian Dynasty did after conquering the Jews? Didn't they create a new hybrid form of Greco-Roman Judaism? To integrate Jewish mythology with Greco-Roman mythology? Calling him… “Jesus The Christ.” Who is also famous for triumphing over the season of death. As represented by… “The Trinity.” Isn't this a better explanation for the origins of Christianity rather than Harry Houdini magic? Wasn't Paul secretly working for the Flavian Dynasty? Weren't all of the original Roman Catholic Saints' members of the Flavian Dynasty? Weren't all of the original symbols used by the earliest Christians identical to those of the Flavian Dynasty? And wasn't the earliest iconographic image of Jesus The Christ, in a catacomb, under the city of Rome, which was owned by a Flavian Princess? Weren't all of the original Jesus cult texts produced under the oversight of the Flavian Dynasty? Didn't the Flavian Dynasty posses the only remaining copy of the Hebrew Tanakh other than the Greek Septuagint translation? Isn't there Flavian typology in the Gospels? Weren't the canonical texts all back dated like the historical fiction of Gone With The Wind? Wasn't Emperor Vespasian known as the Jewish Messiah? Wasn’t Pope Clement of Rome a Flavian? Wasn't Josephus a temple whore for the Flavian Dynasty? Weren't the Flavian’s, as well as Paul, descended from King Herod? There was no separation of Church and State in the Roman Empire. And Christianity is clearly a Greco-Roman hybrid form of Judaism created by the Flavian Dynasty. As an attempt to adapt, pacify, and integrate the rebellious and defiant Jews into the rest of the Greco-Roman Empire. Just like the Greeks created Hermes Trismegistus to integrate Egyptian mythology with Greek mythology. Then finally Neo-Flavian Constantine chose the Flavian family religion to be the official religion of the entire Roman Empire. In order to consolidate power in his fractured Empire. And then Eusebius edited and rewrote the history of the previous 3OO years. Destroying all contradictory evidence. Such as all of the non-canonical Jesus cult texts. It isn't history it is all simply Greco-Roman mythopoetic literature. Today it is known as Historical Fiction. “What profit hath not this fable of Christ brought us.” Pope Leo X 💙

[@rasunsoter]

YOU don’t know what the HADES you are talking about. Your god is fiction baby

[@andreaurelius45]

@rasunsoter so you do not subscribe to the traditional Christian Faith?

[@MakaiJohnkenneth]

To day dhake up eould imply changing course of things through nre information The Tanakh was there and gospel writtings were there so we can compare what is after tanakh and see if it compares with tanakh. Thats all. But you blow things out of proprtion as western Media does.

[@DAC49]

So a guy who had an opinion that God wouldn’t do a certain thing carries weight? LOL. OK “Well I don’t think that’s how it would happen so there fore it didn’t”.

Demonstrating implausibility is a valid method of analyzing a claim.

[@williambranch4283]

Alka Celsum more critical than Contra Celsum ;-)

[@terrymarshall5480]

Story time.

[@Shine-ec9bm]

jesus: eli eli lama sabakhtani? (god god why you leave me?) thats the whole human begging.. not an act as a Son at all

[@Nola-2000]

He became a man at the Cross. It was the whole point. Read Psalm 22 The cross is the first time he called God , God not Father. It is because at the Cross he was the same as the worst sinner. And this even show us that even in that situation God didn't forsake him. He delivered him, he died right after. God also put the whole world in darkness, it is written and can be proof because it was also whitnessed in ancient China at that time. They knew it was the death of a God to cause this in the sky.

[@Shine-ec9bm]

@Nola-2000 nah.. he shouldnt say like that at all if know what he will become.. the act is so confusing.. a bit dumb

[@Nola-2000]

@Shine-ec9bm No because you didn't anderstood. Go read psalm 22 and read cathechism.

[@Shine-ec9bm]

@@Nola-2000 that psalm is an act of David, not the one of the future event.. thats not same at all.. a dumb move for future telling like that when he know already what will happen, its a dramatic excuse..

[@Shine-ec9bm]

@Nola-2000 i understood well, its not mentioning about jesus at all, its david struggling.. not jesus lmao

[@johnmcgrath6192]

Put aside Jesus suffered and died for our sins, to appease God's wrath with human sacrifice. As a child I came to not belib4 any of this "died for our sins" narrative. . Insrtead I saw Jesus, possibly God, as choosing to completely unite with humanity, and that would require joining with the worst that humanity has suffered, especially suffering based on oppression. In other words Jesus in the anti-hero, like the oppressed of humanity. He does not want to be a hero. As for the agony in the Garden during a visual meditation on that event in the life of Jesus (Catholic school), I saw Jesus turn and show me ll the evil that would be done in his name and that is the cup he wanted takenbn from him But that would have required eliminating humanity's free will, which including the freedom to be unjust and cruel to each other. I did not think this was a mystical revelation but an act of my mond presenting a visual imaghe of what my mind already believed. Jesus does not have to conform to a philosophic concept of God, or of what a hero a God-MMan should be. P.S. I amnot a believer. I just find the proiposition that "jesus did not act like a God should act" to be a form of limiting real possibilities.

[@Nola-2000]

Why not being a believer ? You have all it takes to be one. You have been chosen to anderstand him more than others.

[@mikaelrosing]

​​@@Nola-2000Thats quite normal catholic even eastern orthodox theology mostly qtually eastern this is called christus victor atonement theory and theosis being a key part in eastern orthodoxy being united to God trough Jesus Christ the bridge between man and God. our high priest the perfect adam..

[@FemaleUser2024]

Jesus existed but he didn't die for our sins. "No one can die for your sins"

The god of the universe wasn't sufficiently aware of human suffering? He needed a graphic depiction. Could've just hired Mel Brooks.

[@johnmcgrath6192]

Lol, I once had a bit part in the Mel Books movie, "Is there sex after death>" I never did see the movie though.

[@vikingskuld]

Wow this guy is telling us how God should act lol. If he knows that i guess he is a God. Incredulity is not a ligical perspective for an argument. Comoaring a historical figure like Jesus who has more accounts of his life then Roman Emporers do. I honestly dont see much if this as logically thiught out.

[@robinharwood5044]

Who tells you this crap about “more accounts of his life than Roman Emperors”? Have you ever checked for yourself? Have you compared the quality of the accounts? Have you checked how many accounts of King Arthur and Robin Hood there are?

[@republiccooper]

I love your podcast, as a believer in Jesus, it strengthens my mind and my faith. First, Jesus didn't act as a Greco-Roman god would because the gospels seem to reflect fact, not fiction. Second, Jesus did tell people that he'd triumph over the execution. When he shouted, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me," he was quoting Psalms 22. It's triumphant, not despairing. Third, at the trial, he barely spoke to the priests. But he answered Pilate, representative of Caesar. Kings speak to kings, rulers to rulers. He was asserting his dignity. Fourth, his sacrifice isn't something a heathen god would do since those religions didn't have a concept of original son and separation from God. . Your podcast is great. It stimulates thought but, like Celcus, it does show a deep misunderstanding of Christ Jesus and Jewish cosmology. That's okay. I encourage all my believer friends to listen to you since they need to know and hear these things and know how to respond. Thank you for your work! ❤

[@ToweyBowey]

Enjoy worshipping your foreign dead god man

[@seaman5705]

You sure have an "original" view upon the texts . Too bad , most of them are inventions .

"the gospels seem to reflect fact, not fiction" lol

[@republiccooper]

@@seaman5705 but the views aren't mine. That's standard Christian fare, even grin the first century.

[@onlytruth6337]

This is Confusion TV. Only for who does not want to know anything.

[@TheDanEdwards]

Of what are you afraid?

[@onlytruth6337]

@@TheDanEdwards The confusion, because confusion is darkness. If you lose the way you have confusion. This channel is only to create confusion using history, because everybody knows that history is always confusion. History is not science, it is always faith in who tells history. But if you like confusion and darkness... no problem. I dont like it.

[@onlytruth6337]

@@TheDanEdwards Confusion is darkness and history by historians is always doubt and produces confusion. To use history means to create confusion.

[@tomlorenz4344]

@@onlytruth6337Orwellian reasoning

[@onlytruth6337]

@@tomlorenz4344 It is logical. Have the anti-Christ Jews protested against the history taught in schools? No. Then you can be sure that this history is totally false. In confusionTV you can see liar people like the fake rabbi Tovia Singer.

[@theobolt250]

Celsus is actually of little worth. He is biased, not historical and his argumentation is, even for philosophers, dubious.

[@harveywabbit9541]

No history in the Bible.

[@DIBBY40]

Anything in particular?

[@robinharwood5044]

And yet Origen, who had training in philosophy, took him seriously enough to write a thick book attempting to refute him.

[@harveywabbit9541]

@@robinharwood5044 Origen, the guy whose sinew shrank to being clean shaven.

[@jgz6989]

Never heard of him.......

[@Nola-2000]

Humans saying HOW A GOD SHOULD ACT.

[@xaviervelascosuarez]

😂😂😂😂

[@Nola-2000]

@xaviervelascosuarez 😂 Yes alluring.

That is what EVERY RELIGION DOES.

[@Aye-Aye136]

The risen Jesus appeared only to those who had believed in him before.

[@joelhansen8649]

Except , apparently , Paul of Tarsus

[@Aye-Aye136]

@joelhansen8649 You are absolutely right but before Christ appeared to Saul (later Paul) he must've heard of Christ apparitions from his believers that he had persecuted. That's how it followed. 1 Corinthians 15:5-8 [A]nd that [Christ] appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. Those >500 must've just meant many.

How convenient.

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

Sounds like another dill

[@jackshadow325]

Jesus didn't act as a god should have acted? Yes, that was the whole point. Jesus died as a man, not a god.

[@MrAuskiwi101]

Ah no. Jesus is a myth

[@harveywabbit9541]

@@MrAuskiwi101 Jesus (Sun) is in my front yard and he is hiding amidst the clouds (Nephilim).

[@jackshadow325]

@@MrAuskiwi101 Doesn’t matter. That’s not the point.

[@matthewkopp2391]

It is obvious to me. But it was not obvious to Athanasius in 324AD who argued that Jesus is God himself in human form. In the New Testament Jesus calls himself Son of Man. Others call him son of God (but so was King David and Plato was son of Apollo). Being the same as God is obscurely insinuated in the Gospel of John. For me this confusion is the greatest problem in Christianity. It’s answer can be found in India with their proliferation of God-men and can be found in the Mediterranean with other God-men like Empedocles. Jesus simply received a monopoly on God-man status after his death, in the same way that YHWH received a monopoly on „God“. It is interesting to read about what was thought about Empedocles by Ireneaus because many early Christians were accused of following Empedocles rather than Jesus.

[@vikingskuld]

​@@MrAuskiwi101sorry not only are you wrong your embarrassingly WRONG. There is far more evidence for Jesus the there is for many other historical people. Not only that but there is plenty of evidence for people and places he interacted with. Your basically saying the earth is flat look how smart I am lol. Educated atheists will admit there is plenty of evidence for Jesus. So educate yourself and don't be a flattard