Members Only Content - DeBaca County Sheriff Gary Wayne Graves

From the upcoming "Billy the Kid Tapes"...a members only exclusive. Watch the full interview with Gary Graves and see what he has to say about the sanctity of Billy's grave!

[@bobreece5842]

I could listen to Graves all day long. Thank you for your honest and thoughtful conversation. Outstanding interview.

[@luke8210]

I grew up in a small community here in southern Arizona. I've known gentlemen like this sheriff. My personal opinion is he is 100 percent being honest. He just happened to be a small town sheriff in a much bigger scheme. I never put much thought into miller. After his interview, I've definitely had to turn my eyes that way. Cheers to you mag and the sheriff.

[@wilmoney4619]

Just looked this man up. Is it correct that he passed due to covid? My goodness if thats true. That is such a shame. What an amazing man. Wow

[@MustangsGirl]

Great Interview! Let him talk 'till he's done and no interruptions. What a nice man Sheriff Graves is, he certainly went through a lot, so sad, and admirable that he carried on from it living a beautiful life with his family. .

[@navydogsadventures3500]

I truly believe this man and Steves' story of what occurred. Especially at the courthouse. The story we've been told just doesn't add up.

[@SumDumGy]

How could it? The account comes from Garrett, who wasn’t there. There were no living witnesses to that event outside Billy.

[@jasonmoehring5326]

Such an awesome interview Michael. I got chills when he said " Buried before daylight". I know I heard that before. I feel like I can relate to the Sheriff being an outsider.

[@AP-qp1hl]

Wow! Needs multiple watches to take it all in. Really good interview.

[@glengrieve544]

A great video as always Australia 😊❤😊

[@kristinakaminskas5135]

what an intewrview. im blowing away.

[@karenfinneganart2480]

wow will need to re watch to absorb it all

[@laurelsheart]

Thank you guys.

[@okiendn15]

I really enjoyed listening to this man. He seems to be a straight shooter. Thank You Mag

[@derekbrown2988]

Great work Michael. This was amazing. Please tell me you got a interview with David Bailey...

[@MankindMediaLLC]

Oh....you know it!

[@buddha1979mc]

Got to agree with Karen and Ap will need to rewatch this a couple more times to absorb all the Sheriff talks about. What an great interview!

[@MankindMediaLLC]

So much BTK drama huh? People's lives have been ruined because of this....

[@greg19071961]

Woah! What a fascinating interview MAG! And the plot deepens (pardon the pun.) Sheriff Graves seems like a very proud lawman to me. He is really very hurt and upset, and I agree with a lot of things he says (especially about Garrett) but, I still believe Billy was killed that night in 1881. I really want Billy to be buried in that grave in Fort Sumner...but if those guys did dig it up, and no body was in there...that really sucks! 😭I just don't know now? Money and politics IS behind everything! Have to watch it again too. ❤🤠

[@SumDumGy]

Allegedly, the four men who buried the body were asked to identify the location of the burial some time later. All four came to a different conclusion. The marker was then placed at a location at the center of those four different points. Even if he were buried there, so many reports of floods over the years having washed graves and bodies away down the river would make knowing of he’s still there pretty much impossible without exhuming every body that could be found. It’s a crap shoot.

[@wilmoney4619]

What!!!!? His body!? Unreal. Amazing interview. Thankyou!

[@ariadnacruz5351]

Very interesting information this man has.

[@ironheadbill]

Man, that cliff hanger at the end, I want to know about the ranch...

[@michaelgoodyear9369]

Whoa this was really great. Very interesting

[@wildestcowboy2668]

This mane is a good one I listen to da brotha' it is so good

[@justind8648]

This was great. I am anxious to hear the David Bailey interview and hear his side. I would also be interested to hear Raymond Lopez side. It all comes down to money and power and it seems to me that maybe certain people don't want the truth to be found because of money. It would be nice to correct the history we have been told for so many years if we have been told a lie. If it is a lie, a lot of people have built careers on that lie. I noticed in an article that Raymond Lopez referred to these guys as three idiots. Sherriff Graves seemed like even though he was calling out Raymond and David for digging up the grave, he was not name calling and tried to remain professional. I need to hear these other guys side but my belief when people name call or hurass their opposition, the way it sounds like they did to prove their side they are usually the ones with something to hide. Fascinating stuff. Can't wait to hear more

[@MankindMediaLLC]

I've got quite a bit to tell you about Lopez

[@justind8648]

@@MankindMediaLLC Awesome. Thanks

[@luke8210]

Damn fine interview sir.

[@GatesMcCrary]

I’ll confess, I don’t know all the players he talks about. Would be beneficial to hear their take. Still a good interview. Thanks MAG

[@Rollin_L]

I remember when that was in the news, but the focus was mainly on Gov. Richardson and his decision not to issue the pardon. I don't recall the story of the investigation from that time. But what an amazing interview, and Sheriff Graves seems to have been a man of tremendous integrity. Sad that we lost him so recently. He may say he was a tired old man, but he certainly wasn't that old. Very glad you got this interview down, and he had a remarkable story to tell. As others have said here, this one needs more than one viewing to take it all in. Thanks for sharing this with us, Michael. RIP, Sheriff Graves.

[@Rollin_L]

@@SsgtJodygotyourgirl My, my, ten months after my original post here, you are going to come back from a whole different channel and video and pick up the fight. Too funny. Notice that, in my ten-month-old post I said nothing about Sheriff Graves' accuracy, but I got the impression of a man of integrity, one who believes what he says. Never said I agreed with him, and what you don't know is the other context to this. At the time, the discussion on this channel included a comparison of Graves' testimony with that of Fort Sumner's David Bailey, an interview subject also posted around the same time. My comments here were in context of that discussion. I will add that I have had ten months to learn more about the BTK history since my original comment was posted above. So let's start with where you completely misquote Sheriff Graves. His comment at 26:46 is as follows: "I want you to think about the weapons they had in those days. The military weapons that they possessed in those days." You took that and spun it into "the Ft gave weapons to Lincoln County's Armory and not jump and stomp your feet and claim they did not." Did you think I was going to fall for that fabrication? Nowhere does he say where they came from. How would he know? Garrett never states where they came from, but he does state that building had only become County property weeks before he set up office, "jail" and... wait for it... armory, by the time it was ready for housing the Kid. First of all, he is making a general comment about the weapons that "they" had in those days. That's NOT specific to the armory, rather he takes it into a vague discussion of black powder firearms of the period. News flash, in 1881, it's ALL black powder firearms: centerfire/rimfire cartridge, muzzle or breech loading percussion. Metallic cartridge centerfire calibers such as .44 WCF (44-40) and .45 Colt were loaded with black powder, and if stored properly could last for some years. That covers your Winchester 73 and Colt SAA revolvers, and you can add in the .41 Long Colt for the Thunderer, also a centerfire cartridge. Olinger's shotgun? Black powder of course. Smokeless powder is not in the U.S. market for a good 10-12 years after 1881. So Graves is simply off the mark here. The black powder thing is a non-factor and so is any reference to "military" arms. Graves merely confuses things with the reference to "military" arms, which you took and ran with. Total red herring. First of all, there was no difference between "military arms" and civilian arms at the time. Arms produced at government armories (such as Springfield) were not sold to the public, but only because it was not commercial manufacture. Similar firearms were, Sharps being a good example. In fact, as the standard issue rifle, it was NOT the Winchester that was serving in the U.S. military then. Not sure if you know that. (The 7th Cavalry at Little Big Horn was greatly disadvantaged by their "military arms" versus what the Sioux had at their disposal, for example.) Likely, there were no current "military" rifles in Pat Garrett's Courthouse armory. If Fort Stanton had given the County arms, they would NOT have been Winchesters, lol. Colt Single Action Army revolvers? Sure. Same gun serving both military and civilians, sold in hardware stores everywhere. They were probably sold at Tunstall's and at Dolan's stores in 1877. So nice try, but you are not an honest player here.

[@BrushyBill-eo5og]

@@Rollin_Lawaking in the morning has to be a tough ordeal for you isn’t it? The courthouse exists before the jail. Its the very place they bring Brady and record his belongings. You are correct it did not house a jail before Billy’s arrest. Now you do know the courthouse exists, you also aware the armory exists? Also are you aware the statements of the Army leaving Lincoln weapons is true? I am unsure why you have such an issue with the Army leaving arms for the intent and purposes of protection for the county. They recorded said items. Since long before back the Government operates off a budget. A sheriff is responsible for what is in his charge, and records everything, from taxes he collected, land he evicted people from, and weapons. I’m at a loss why you think the basics of running a budget, having to prove a budget expense, as well as why, what, where, to whom, and when an item was at for any reason. Auditors existed then as they do today. Meetings were held then as today, all over a budget, and get this, property owned by the county. If auditors did not exist, Garrett could ransack the armory himself and as well there money. Now, long before radios, internet, phones, and computers, paper recorded things. These very papers hold what is in that armory, when and where. So, your two stolen rifle theory falls apart, why would Pat write one was stolen, and record said rifles serial number? How would Sederwall or any writer know the serial number of this weapon, or the two Handguns, one which has never surfaced on this planet to this day. Odd huh? I read your statement and now ponder your accuracy, as you state their is no armory at the time, which is incorrect, there is just a jail missing.

[@BrushyBill-eo5og]

I should say, there is no jail in the courthouse. Till the Kid there was a pit in town. I find it a bit odd that Wallace attends to Billy’s pleas about his inhumane living conditions as he wrote the Governor. I used my words not the Kids. But in summary Wallace sees to it the Kids placed in more humane conditions, and the jail is born. Not the armory. But, whether we consider the pit as a jail, then we have at best one at that time before Pat becomes sheriff. And we have the testimony to support said existence. How? You fail to even consider that pit, which Robert A. Widenmann put the jailers in when he released Billy 3 days after the Kids arrest. 2 days later the courthouse gets the job of recording Brady’s death and belongings. I find it odd a U.S Marshall is noted for that, as you state their is no jail. Wallace might be the first person in history to consider fair and humane treatment of prisoners! Stop confusing two handguns with 2 rifles and stop with the no existence of an armory. It’s there, but only the jail is not. And for heavens sake research, call, visit, and see what your claiming so you have the facts, we have enough misinformation.

[@Rollin_L]

@@SsgtJodygotyourgirl You are the one who misquoted and twisted his words to mean other than what he actually said. Then you have the gall to spin it and put that on me. So dishonest.

[@BrushyBill-eo5og]

@@Rollin_L twisting and misquoting? how and where? The sheriff states the military left arms. He states the armories existence. it’s recording as to exist. Yet in the ever wanting to be right call someone out as inaccurate, and misquoting? Get a grip their Pal, your falling apart when presented evidences. I don’t get where documented evidence exists that proves your facts wrong to become what you decide they are. You asked for proof, and now, still refuse to further investigate and learn your error. i do need a bigger hammer I guess.

[@BullyHeadTM]

Another great interview Mag! It is messed up what Sheriff Graves had to go through for just trying to find out the truth. I respect this man for his service and putting in his work. Hopefully one day we will get the answers we need. When was the actual date that this interview was taken?

[@Azzy5146]

Very, very interesting stuff

[@MankindMediaLLC]

Discussion on Wednesday eve about this....

[@MIKEG509]

No mention of the army exhumation map

[@aliassombrerojack3438]

What do you think about the Miller claim ? I don't think so. , but if there's one suspect that could be the Kid , Miller is the only one I though had a chance of being him . But doubt it still .

[@MankindMediaLLC]

You can exclude Brushy based on easily available evidence. At least up until July 14, 1881, you can do that with Miller. I don’t believe he was, but you never know?

[@jeffplatt6713]

so did he say when they dug up the grave there was no body?

[@MankindMediaLLC]

Everything he said is on that video

[@greg19071961]

The thing I was going to debunk tomorrow...too much for live chat, is when Sheriff Graves says it was impossible/improbable Pat sent someone to ride to the coroner's house thirty miles away after midnight, and get him out of bed and bring him back to the Maxwell house, in a buggy on dirt roads. I don't believe it. I mean... not because it was too difficult to do. In 1988-91, I was caretaker with my ex (Irish decent lol) bf/partner (he was from the Snowy River Mountains, sheep farmer/horsemen family) for a relative's large, very remote property out west. On a moonlit night (there was no electricity there at that time...totally off grid), I could drive along rough bush tracks/dirt roads in a ute/pickup up truck with no headlights on, I had no problem seeing. If there was NO moon...you couldn't see your hand in front of your face. But in moonlight..you got used to it. I could see fine, except into shadows. Especially in summer. I know I am in Australia, but it is the same moon lol... btw I did also drive with headlights on! I'm not a total idiot haha. By all first person accounts on July 14th, 1881... IT WAS A MOONLIT NIGHT! Cowboys/posses used to ride all night when required, Also, Billy was buried the next morning by his Hispanic friends, not at night...according to witnesses. Many more questions for tomorrow.🐎🌵

[@wilmoney4619]

I think he was more referring to time wise. It would have been longer at night.

[@richardpierce7819]

I have never heard the story of the man this sherrif talks about.

[@superfly7948]

This outta tell alot of dead set people that Kid is in ft sumner buried, there might be a different story. Ive always always said, me and my best friend, weve done things that neither one of us could speak of. If Pat Garrett was in the same room as the kid, could you kill dead your friend, a man you ran with, cheated with, stole with, ect ect. Then you have a full fledged law man here saying his life was ruined by UNCOVERING the truth of John Miller..

[@richardpierce7819]

Brushy Bills story is to compelling not to be true.

[@MankindMediaLLC]

Lots of fake stories are compelling.

[@stephenbeattie8342]

If I was ever elected governor of New Mexico I would pardon billy the kid in a heartbeat