The CRASH that Changed US Aviation.

[@MentourPilot]

Go to curiositystream.thld.co/mentourpilot_1122 and use code MENTOURPILOT to save 25% off today, that's only $14.99 a year. Thanks to Curiosity Stream for sponsoring today's video.

[@Mpugs]

Nice vid but, I do believe that Seattle isn’t in Washington DC

[@5Andysalive]

@@Mpugs hard to stop you when saying Washington to add DC. It's just so rare to not needing it....

[@aquaticaddict5398]

Mentour when will that hoodie be available 😮😍 also never had any interest in aviation until I found you. Thanks for all your quality content Peter !

[@wheelie26]

@@aquaticaddict5398 I think it may be spelt Petter

[@DutchObserver]

"But something that is NOT prohibited is to press the subscribe button and to activate the bell" Hmm, maybe. But one can never be too careful ;)

[@carstenlechte]

I often already know about the accidents that Petter talks about, but he always gives more technical details and insights than other documentaries. Plus the computer graphics are much better suited to convey the information without drama. Unlike certain US documentaries that are half drama and screaming passengers. Petter's way of treating the human tragedy is much more dignified.

[@hermannmeyer2646]

Without drama is the important word ☝️

[@darsynia]

Yes, this was my exact reaction-- his insights are so powerful and give an added dimension to what we already know. Anyone who hasn't seen the 1549 (Miracle on the Hudson) episode should check it out. There's a ton of stuff that was going on in the cockpit by necessity that is always cut out of dramatizations, probably (IRONY) because it would be distracting... but that's the reality of what was happening for those pilots! Knowing that helps illustrate their versatility and resilience so much more. Can't wait to watch this one, but I had to boost your remarks, Carsten

[@truberthefighter9256]

Oh yes. Even when you have something like Olympic 311 (?), that giant 747 with the water injection issues, I am surprised how much more I can learn here after I knew the presentation by mini air crash Investigation (which should be among the better channels, I think)

[@Soundbrigade]

I use to watch The Flightchannel that has some fine simulations, but as you noted, Petter supplies his viewers with a lot more info, and even info not directly linked to the incidents but gives a huge understanding of aviation and what’s going on in the heads of the crew.

[@truberthefighter9256]

@@Soundbrigade Theflightchannel is not a channel I would consider being superior to mini

[@happykillmore349]

A great example of how doing something poorly for a long time doesn't make you experienced, it just makes you someone with bad habits.

[@MentourPilot]

Correct

[@Erelyes]

A boss used to say 'You don't have 1000 hours of experience, you have 1 hour of experience a thousand times'

[@thefourthwritedjentleman3643]

100% scary when talking about pilots especially

[@minecrewsupernt831]

@@Erelyes couldn't have said it better myself

[@coolcatmeow77]

Bad habits and someone who's luck is about to run out.

[@erickenline9077]

As a former firefighter I was at this crash......last call I went on. May they rest in peace as this was an absolute tragedy.

[@Bischlarbo69]

Was it a bad scene to witness? What was the reason this was your last?

[@macgeek2004]

DUDE. I'm also a Buffalonian and I have personally visited the memorial. It's in a completely normal-@$$ neighborhood; I can't imagine what that scene must've been like! O_O

[@dagabbagool2600]

The Colgan air rule actually derailed my piloting career plans. I was pursuing the debt free CFI path and had my solo flight in May of 2013. Then completed my PPL in the first weeks of June. I was about half way through instrument training and still under 100 hours time when the FAA dropped the 1500 hour rule later that summer. I remember half the CFIIs quit at my school, and I quit as well after considering the forecast two years of CFI work to build hours was now looking more like six, while making basically minimum wage and working two jobs. Back then even after picked up by regionals as a first officer you made peanuts, like 20-40k yearly for many years to work your way up with seniority. It didn't seem worth it anymore so I pivoted to an IT career that proved to be very in demand and lucrative in just a few years time. No "dues" to pay, just immediate competency equaling money. I never did complete my instrument and actually haven't flown anything but part 103 ultralights since then. RIP to all of the victims of course, a terrible tragedy and not their fault at all.

[@videogameplayer0552]

@@degatagauwatie4073Not true. No airline is lowering standards. If you’re afraid of being flown by a w0man or bl@ck person, you are the problem, and should get rid of your biases.

[@Souledex]

@@degatagauwatie4073 where? in what way? Cause 90% of these claims are just entirely bullshit

[@ajs41]

When I first read your comment I was bit confused because here in the UK "dropped" would mean they stopped doing it, but I realise that the American meaning of the word in this context is actually the opposite, to put it in place.

[@GorgeDawes]

They “fixed” entirely the wrong problem. The pilot shortages of the last few years are the legacy of that.

[@Britt20654]

The 1500 hour rule is like the bar exam. Completely stupid and unnecessary although the bar exam is a deliberate attempt to restrict the supply of lawyers. (Yes if you practiced law in the way you’re tested for it you would being committing malpractice. You also don’t need a certain score to pass, it’s set up that a certain number of test takers automatically fail.)

[@jemez_mtn]

I have been flying for a living for over 20 years, and I learn so many things from every single Mentour Pilot video. So much so that, in my current turboprop instructor role, I not only often recommend this channel's videos to my students, but also even to my non-flying parents and friends. The breakdown, explanation, production quality, and Petter's likeable professionalism are just outstanding.

[@filmingle6227]

this is underrated, excellent comment, i agree with everything, it should get pinned by Mentour Pilot!

[@eriklundstedt9469]

@@filmingle6227 agree 100%. How has this stayed unpinned for 11 days?

[@jgunther3398]

it is scary that a flying instructor learns flying from youtube

[@jemez_mtn]

@@jgunther3398 Lol, ok bro 😂

[@williamsstephens]

@@jgunther3398 Not learning flying. Learning systems/failure analysis.

[@DavesHangar1958]

I learned a similar lesson in my Private Pilot training. My instructor had told me to go around for the first time ever and I looked at him and I asked him, go around? And he replied yes go around. I immediately pushed the throttle forward, pulled the yoke back and I started to clean up my flaps. I started to clean them up a little too soon and we started to drop. I don't know if he anticipated this or not but we were only about 300 ft above the runway. I knew from all my simulator time doing power on and power off stalls that when you start to drop, you apply forward pressure until you get your speed up and then you start pulling back. After all the drama was over he asked me if I was okay. And I replied I'm okay in total disbelief of what I had just did. He told me, you never clean your flaps up until you get your airspeed back up. It was a lesson that I will never forget. Correction: Changed back pressure to forward pressure.

[@ariaalexandria3324]

What I’ve been told is up to 20 right away, unless they’re at 20 already. Positive rate of climb, then flaps up in increments.

[@yobb1n544]

@@ariaalexandria3324 That's generally correct procedure when you have 30 flaps, yeah. 30 to 20 right away, two positives 20 to 10, 10 to full up during the 500 feet checks/turning xwind.

[@endokrin7897]

Thoughts and prayers

[@RichardTurlington]

​@@endokrin7897 This is the most worthless common uttered statement.

[@mianatwood]

Add back pressure meaning pitch up/pulling the nose up. You likely mean you applied forward pressure to get out of the “stall.”

[@kevingoodperson]

I worked on an ambulance near where this happened... it was hard hearing the original Alert status dispatched (getting the agency ready for a possible airplane crash) then being called off because "on scene fire report no remaining surivors"

[@MentourPilot]

Oh 😔😔

[@AnnInghamlife-goals]

The adrenaline when you expect to be involved in a serious incident, followed by being stood down with nothing to do, is an experience that sticks in the mind doesn't it?

[@johnnunn8688]

Really?

[@donnabaardsen5372]

@@johnnunn8688 What??????

[@grmpEqweer]

Ohhh. Yeah.☹️ That's not a good feeling.

[@ritacal557]

A colleagues sister died in this crash. It was devastating and avoidable. Thanks for showing compassion in your videos.

[@DeeDee-lz8zx]

May she rest in peace. I remember this sad day.

[@NicolaW72]

@@DeeDee-lz8zx When I remember it right it was only a few weeks after Sully did his amazing landing in the Hudson River.

[@josephconnor2310]

I am sorry.

[@Dagrdottir]

My sincere condolences to your colleagues family

[@cindyroshak9858]

​

[@ashleydavall]

This crash will always leave so many unanswerable questions. The First Officer's decision to retract the flaps, thereby reducing the lift she had, seems utterly unfathomable, as does the Captain's decision to continually try and pull nose up and not apply power. In every other explanation of this crash I've seen, it's just labelled "bad pilots", but you Petter are the first I've seen trying to give some explanation as to what was going through their minds. Excellent video as always.

[@giovannianile3830]

But these were exceptionally bad pilots, especially the captain

[@RichardTurlington]

​@@giovannianile3830 Yeah, I question their understanding of basic lift. Period.

[@andrew1906]

Yeah, but in a stressful situation you are not the thinking through aerodynamics, you’re going with muscle memory. In a power on stall, you apply full thrust, wings level, pitch neutral, slowly take out flaps. She started taking out flaps slowly - as her training taught her - but forgot that you don’t do that until you’ve reestablished your speed and climb. So I think I know why she did it; but obviously it was completely wrong. What is crazy to me is how you react to a stall warning with back pressure. THAT is something you learn day 1 of private pilot training. Wings level, pitch neutral.

[@mistertagnan]

@@andrew1906 people seem to have this assumption that humans are perfectly rational beings, and that they’re able of complex thought in highly stressful situations. We’re not. There is a famous clip of someone asking a woman in an extremely frantic manner to name a woman - any woman. She froze up and couldn’t think of anyone, despite being a woman herself. Stress is ultimately a survival instinct, and as such, it rarely adheres to logic - especially in highly complex situations. Last year, a friend of mine got into a motorcycle accident. He said that immediately after the accident, he just began crawling - he didn’t know why or where he was crawling to, his brain was running on pure instinct and bringing him away from the accident - an action that could’ve made the situation worse had he crawled out of sight from the road and the lost consciousness. The point is: in highly stressful situations, your brain goes on autopilot. In this particular instance, the cockpit crew began reacting to the stall based on pure instinct and muscle memory - without fully processing the reasoning for their actions, as there was no conscious reasoning. It was all just doing what they were taught to do/what they felt was needed, without actually thinking it through. I’d imagine that the captain’s attempts to climb was pure instinct out of a feeling that he was too close to the ground. It’s contrary to what should be instinct, but under the circumstances I can see the fundamental survival instincts of “get away from dangerous thing” overrode the rational “push nose down to gain speed” which in a panicked state might as well be synonymous with “get close to dangerous thing”.

[@hari4406]

The problem is most likely wrong fundamental understanding. If the person thinks that the flap is just for landing, then they would not see no harm jn retracting it once they decide to go around even if air speed is low. Incorrect understanding might be that flaps is only required at low engine powers before landing. Correct understanding would be to monitor airspeed and relevant flap setting to have have proper recommended lift. This may seem very simple but without this right understanding and mental model, a pilot could take wrong action, like retracting flaps too early.

[@c172drv]

I used to work for Colgan. This was how they trained and tested. 0 altitude loss stalls was huge to them. I thought it was stupid and was proven correct.

[@daniellec2172]

What do you mean by this? That they trained pilots to stop a stall without going down?

[@Zorroxyz123]

In stall avoidance or recovery, altitude loss is not avoidable, it is part of the process.

[@arasb3258]

Yeah, that max 100 feet loss or you fail (as mentioned in the video) was some BS. Hope they changed that rule.

[@giftofthewild6665]

Colgan caused this then with their shitty training. At some point a colgan pilot was bound to encounter a stall. If their reaction was to try to preserve altitude then something like this was bound to happen at some point.

[@c172drv]

@@giftofthewild6665 it was a pervasive idea to minimize altitude loss but taken too far with Colgan. Their training was good but I feel individual personalities got in the way of the best training possible. It was well intentioned I believe but misguided and failed to adhere to the recommendations of the FAA. This is a similar issue with "Memory Items" that many airlines have. My past airline flying a CRJ has a large list of memory items that we had to do before touching a checklist. This was for things like engine fires, depressurization, and thrust reverser unlocks. All of these were also on a "Immediate Action Card" that we could instantly access. Out of all those, only the Thrust Reverser Unlock was a scary issue that I'd want to react to quickly and that was to simply press the button that was lit up to try and force the reverser closed. None of these were done though below 1000ft AGL and you usually had loads of time. A depressurization was a serious issue also but you were going to be getting your mask on without the need to have that memory item or you were going to be passed out. All this being said, my new airplane has no memory items. Nothing outside of maintaining control of the aircraft is generally so important that you can't use a "Immediate Action Card" or similar device. These choices were all well intentioned and had a sense of professionalism but could lead you to doing the wrong thing in haste trying to deal with a situation. Rant over.

[@turricanedtc3764]

3:20 - It's been a long time, but what I remember reading was that while the FO felt OK when she left her home in Seattle and showed only mild symptoms in Memphis, by the time the flight was ready for its delayed departure from EWR she was in quite a bad way. If I recall correctly it could not be determined whether the FO was suffering from a head cold or the 'flu, but I'm sure all of us are familiar with the scenario where we start coming down with something and think we can ride it out, but within 12-24 hours we're no use for anything. This was an overlooked consequence of long commutes in the regionals, because in that particular case by the time a member of the flight crew became sick to the point of affecting their performance they'd be thousands of miles from home and given the tight margins the regionals operated under, the airline could well take a dim view of their reporting sick having flown them all the way out there. While it's only correct to point out the Captain's training and skill issues, the point remains that both of the flight crew were fatigued and one of them was apparently significantly ill. Again, I'm sure that many of us who drive have occasionally done so when we've been tired or fatigued to the point where we really shouldn't have, and one of the ways we try to keep ourselves awake is to keep a conversation going with passengers - I wouldn't be surprised for a second if that was the reason behind the Captain's significant and inappropriate verbosity. Also, whilst it's indisputable that the Captain's "pull-up" response to the stick-shaker was grossly inappropriate, historically there have been innumerable instances of pilots of all skill and experience levels doing the same when subjected to "startle effect". As far as the FO's retraction of the flaps goes, it's clear that between the fatigue and her illness she was operating well below her usual level - I always wondered whether she was focused on the low airspeed and was trying to reduce drag.

[@turricanedtc3764]

@@willbaker602 - Thank you!

[@raerohan4241]

Wow, good point on that "talking to keep yourself awake" bit. It's entirely possible that this is what the captain was trying to do. But if that was the case, it would mean he was already so tired even prior to takeoff that he was struggling to keep himself awake, and I'm not sure what to think about that 😅

[@turricanedtc3764]

@@raerohan4241 - Unfortunately, living and working with that level of fatigue seems to have become an accepted part of flying for the regionals at that time.

[@Jahmedmansour]

You can't feel but pure sadness for the person who was minding his own business inside his house!!! It gives me anxiety that it can happen to me :(

[@AC-te9dr]

Death is not the end. No evidence of death being the end,at least for the physical it is the end. No evidence of Consciousness dying though

[@Gaelic-Spirit]

How about the 40+ passengers, they were in almost the exact same situation.

[@zaksims1981]

The odds to die in a plane crash is 1 in 11 Millon The odds on a plane falling exactly on your house and killing you must be like 1 in 5 billion 😂

[@Arceusmemesidk-zk7tm]

​@AC-te9dr Tt still sucks though, plus there is no evidence that it continues either.

[@sleepysera]

@@Gaelic-Spirit Not saying their deaths weren't tragic as well, but at least one could argue that they stepped on a plane, knowing the (low, but existing) risk of something going wrong in the process. When I crawl into my bed at night, I don't do it in the expectation that a plane could fall onto it.

[@aesaphyr]

As a (medical) doctor I found the approach these two pilots had to the rest period before their flight(s) very telling. I worked in the UK, so my experience isn't meant to be a universal statement of all doctors around the world. But we have a shift system in the UK (part of a safety measure implemented to reduce fatigue from doctors working 24+ hours) where we frequently transition from day to night shifts and vice versa. I've worked many night shifts, with many doctors of all grades and experience and ages. Almost universally, I am the only one who religiously sleeps before a first night shift. Almost everybody else just drinks caffeine and hope it keeps them going. Despite us knowing that fatigue kills, there's a cavalier culture around the type of rest needed before a night shift. It made me feel much the same was probably common for these particular pilots - it can't be coincidence that both decided to use the crew room. It's a sad thing that both our professions should be very aware of the effect of fatigue on our performance capabilities... yet we consistently believe ourselves to be above these failings.

[@VanillaMacaron551]

Good comment, thank you

[@mideastgirl8926]

I've been thinking about this point too. Pilots should be treated like kings by their airlines, after all they have so much responsibility. They should be able to go to places free of charge where they can sleep in peace without being disturbed like little one appartment rooms. I do not understand why pilots are left alone if they have to travell to their place of departure when their work begins in the middle of the night or very early in the morning. I feel really sorry for them. Regarding your work: wouldn't it make sense if doctors who see theirselves as a night owl to work most of the time at night or to give a break of two days to change their night-day-rhythm? The latter would also be useful for pilots. They should have enough time to recover.

[@GaryL3803]

I once was condemned to a night shift for 6 months. Having young children at home, I was getting about 3 hours of real sleep in the evening before reporting to work at midnight. I was truly a mental mess and it was hard on my spouse as well. Let the robots work the night shift.

[@mideastgirl8926]

@@GaryL3803 Oh gosh, i feel so sorry for that! I hope you don't have to go through this again! It's a miracle that you managed to get through 6 months with so little sleep without suffering a breakdown or making a significant mistake at work. Wish you all the best!

[@SnibediSnabs]

As someone who worked briefly as a truck driver, this attitude is sadly every bit as prevalent in the road transport industry. My coworkers would regularly come in to load at 4am, complain about how tired they were, inhale three cups of coffee and get on the road. I live in a country with mandatory military service, and got my truck license by serving as a driver in the army. Afterwards I drove delivery as a summer job to make some spending money while in university. During job training my supervisor told me I could call in if I was feeling too tired to drive, but when I actually tried to do that he berated me and told me to, and I quote, "fucking get on the road right this second." Being young, stupid, and short on cash, I loaded up on caffeine and went off, luckily completing the days route safely. But during that run I promised myself that the day my contract ended (I was on a 3-month fixed term contract) would be the last day I ever work as a driver. Nowadays, having completed my studies, I work an office job that allows me to maintain a healthy sleep schedule and where any mistakes made due to fatigue aren't potentially life-threatening. But many of my friends are still professional drivers and they still frighteningly often talk about driving a 50-ton vehicle on three hours of sleep like it's the most normal, mundane thing in the world.

[@shatteredshards8549]

I think one of the things that has always weirded me out the most about this crash was that a co-chair of the 9/11 Family Committee died on this flight, and she had been on her way to award a scholarship in her husband's memory. Like, the chances of being involved in a plane accident are so so low, but it feels particularly wrong here.

[@sharoncassell9358]

A black swan event.

[@CrankyPantss]

@@sharoncassell9358 wouldn’t it be more of a grey swan event? It’s known that planes crash; it’s known that ice on planes can be an issue; it’s known that pilot chit chat is a distraction problem which is why they tell them not to do it. The probability is extremely low that the plane would crash, but it is certainly a known possible event.

[@mnxs]

Our brains are weird with probabilities and random events, yeah. The mathematical fact is indeed that a chair of a 9/11 committee is just as (un)likely as any other member of the flying public to be involved in a crash. I suppose that's why I tend to prefer to handle those kinds of stories with dark humor and thinking, "that's ironic." I find that it doesn't do you good to dwell on, because your weird brain will be weird about it.

[@anjou6497]

Yes. ⚘️

[@sleepysera]

@@mnxs Mr. Play It Safe was afraid to fly He packed his suitcase and kissed his kids goodbye He waited his whole damn life to take that flight And as the plane crashed down he thought "Well isn't this nice..." 🎵 I hate that you made me remember that song, and in that context in particular 😭

[@jasonmock7384]

The crash site was three doors down from a close family friend. The lot that the house that was destroyed stood is now a memorial park. I'll always remember this crash not only because it was close to home, but my oldest daughter was born that morning as well.

[@macgeek2004]

I've been there. It's eerie to contemplate, but kind of beautiful to see. At least when I went, there was tall grass obscuring the memorial from the end of street on either side of the block. It was just a normal-looking neighborhood until I drove RIGHT across from one of the normal-looking empty lots on the street, about half-way down the block. Only from there, from right-across the street, could I actually see the memorial. It moved me to finally see it like that. To realize that one of the empty lots on that totally normal-looking block is only empty because a plane crashed into it is...**shudder**

[@theonlyeskimo]

Not a pilot myself but have binged basically all of Petter's accident videos. As a doctor in a healthcare system that isn't very good at learning from harm, I find the institutional learning element of these videos so fascinating. Plus he is now such a great storyteller! Thanks for all the hard work that goes into these videos.

[@mangos2888]

Ha! I also work in healthcare and truly appreciate the aviation industry's focus on learning from harm!

[@flagmichael]

Is there even such a process in place that could, in a smarter world, take that role?

[@knyangal]

I'm a physician as well, working in the US. Our very litigious society doesn't give any room for the kind of safety culture that exists in the aviation industry. I often wonder how much better we would be if we had a similar culture

[@mariekatherine5238]

Good advice for any job or profession.

[@mangos2888]

@knyangal Idk if I agree with the assumption that litigating prevents evaluation. There's nothing blocking lawsuits in aviation. If anything, litigation would ensure enforcement of the investigation findings.

[@stritz511]

Great content… I am a TRI/TRE and often uses these reports from you as ideas to brief the pilots on issues and happenings to improve flight safety and awareness! Thank you for the great content!

[@MentourPilot]

That’s fantastic to hear from a fellow instructor! Glad to hear you find them valuable. 💕

[@joaodantas8530]

Type rating instructor/ type rating examiner

[@nickyblue4866]

@Godzilla Hårddisksson lmaooooo. It probably means some sort of flight instructor

[@thefourthwritedjentleman3643]

@Godzilla Hårddisksson Spat coffee, not gonna lie 😂

[@melissalaribee3655]

99 K9h K9h K9h K9h K9h K9h K9h K9h K9h o

[@leznets91]

That the pilot responded to a stickshaker with pulling up shocked me. I actually gasped when I heard that, but your explanation was excellent, even if we'll never know why he made this decision for sure.

[@budthecyborg4575]

Across all the stories on this channel it's a surprisingly common occurrence, of course it could also be that every pilot who ever exhibited this illogical reaction has now been immortalized as content for the channel.

[@Argumemnon]

I've never touched an airplane and even I would know that I'd have to push it forward.

[@killer2600]

It's either instinctive - you're going down but you want to go up, or from his failed training - where losing as little altitude as possible is a priority to get a passing grade (as mentioned in the video).

[@Galf506]

@@killer2600 can't be instinctive, I've only flew sims and I only pull up when stalling if I really want to kill myself, it would never cross my brain. A trained pilot would be completely insane. But then again most of my sim flying experience is combat, where the concept of energy state is really all that you care about, and I've never flown for thousand of hours possibly setting into bad habits without ever touching a stall warning. The fact that still in 2009 stall recovery training was so lax is insane to me. edit: it's apparent from the multiple comments that the guy was just incompetent and his habits were created by the "must pass without altitude loss" mentality

[@EvoraGT430]

AF447 was the same. Unbelievable.

[@adb012]

I have a theory for why the captain reacted as he did. Full disclosure: The NTSB analyzed and discarded this theory but, after reading the full final report + documentation in the public docket, I never understood why. Ok, here it goes: The pilot didn't react incorrectly to a wing stall that never occurred. He reacted incorrectly to a tail stall that never occurred. I wont get into the technical details of a tail stall, but I need to mention the symptoms and recovery procedure. Symptoms: 1- In a tail stall, the elevator uncommandedly moves down due to aerodynamic forces. This makes the airplane pitch down. The yoke moves forward by itself too, as a result of the elevator moving down. 2- The tail stall is normally proceeded by intense shaking of the yoke. 3- So both in a wing stall and a tail stall there is shaking as an early warning and the nose of the plane going down uncommanded. How can you tell one from the other (because, as we are going to see, the recovery procedure is different. Hint: It is actually the opposite). 3a: In a wing stall, an early warning is the airframe shaking (buffeting) but not the yoke. Then the plane falls and the nose follows the plane (the fall of the plane causes the nose to go down). 3b: In a tail stall, an early warning is the shaking of the yoke but not the airframe, then if the situation worsens the nose of the plane pitches down and the airplane follows the nose (the drop of the nose causes the airplane to go down, like if the pilot was pushing down). 4- While icing can worsen a wing stall by reducing the angle-of-attack at which the wing stalls, wing stall can and does happen without icing too. However, for a tail stall, icing is a prerequisite. No icing means no tail stall. 5- Although it is possible to stall a plane at any speed, stall normally the consequence of flying too slow, well below approach speed. However, tail stall can occur at above approach speed. Recovery 1a: In a wing stall, the angle-of-attack of the wing was exceeded, so you need to push forward on the yoke to reduce the angle-of-attack. The recovery from an early warning of a wing stall stall, like buffeting, also involves reducing the nose and adding thrust to increase speed. 1b: In a tail stall, you have to fight the uncommanded pitch down by pulling back on the yoke, enough to restore a level flight. This can take a lot of pull-back force. The recovery from an early warning of a tail stall, like shaking of the yoke, involves increasing the speed. Why do I think the pilot thought it was a tail stall? 1- The Q-400 is NOT susceptible to a tail stall. Only mechanically controlled elevators are susceptible to a tail stall because aerodynamic forces can move the elevator (and the movement of the elevator moves the mechacinally-linked yoke as well). 2- The Q-400's elevator is hydraulically powered, hence aerodynamic loads cannot move the elevator or the yoke. 3- But do you know what plane is susceptible to tail stalls? The Saab 340, the one the pilot has flown for most of his 3000+ hours of flight experience, and the one he had been flying until recently when he moved to the Q-400 just 111 flight hours ago. 4- Furthermore, the pilot had undergone a ground training for preparation for the winter season. Part of that training was tail stalls. During the training there was no discussion about which planes are susceptible to tail stall and which planes aren't. Colgan was operating both. 5- The crew had been discussing about icing immediately before the upset. 6- The upset happened at a speed quite higher than approach speed. At that speed a wing stall should not (and did not) occur unless you pull back hard on the yoke. However, a tail stall would be possible at that speed (in a plane susceptible to it) Until now all is factual data. Here is where speculation starts: 1- The pilot, consciously or not, is mentally ready to react to a tail stall due to his vast and recent experience in the Saab 340, the recent winter ops ground training, and the fact that they had been discussing about icing. 2- When the stick shaker activates, that triggers an instinctive response to tail stall. Remember that the yoke shaking, but not the plane, is an early warning of a tail stall. And the speed was well above the approach speed they had selected (they were actively trying to slow down because they were too fast) and hence well above wing stall. But a tail stall would be possible at that speed (although not in the Q-400). 3- As part of an incorrectly executed recovery procedure for a tail stall, he pulls back on the yoke hardly. 4- The stick pusher activates. The pilot, affected by confirmation bias, thinks that that is a sign of worsening of the tail stall condition (they yoke being pushed forward by itself and him having to fight to prevent it). Why do I say that, even as a tail stall recovery, the pilot reacted incorrectly? 1- The recovery for an early warning of tail stall (stick shaker shaking) is not to pull back. It is to increase speed (and maybe retract flaps). 2- If the yoke is pushed forward uncommented and the nose go down, the recovery is to fight that nd push back to establish level flight. 3- Instead of that, the pilot pushed back hard as a reaction of the yoke shaking, and the push back was grossly exaggerated because it is supposed to be used ONLY to establish level flight (which the plane was already doing before the pilot puled back), and NOT to point the nose 30 degrees up, which is what the pilot did. At the end of the day, and for whatever reason, the pilot's actions actively stalled a plane that was nowhere remotely close to any type of stall, wing or tail.

[@jemez_mtn]

Oh man, THISSSSSSS. I can't believe no one is talking about exactly this. As you mentioned, at the time regionals were doing a lot of training for ice-induced tail stalls. Also as you mentioned, this was not a tail stall but I do think it's very possible the crew was pre-amped for it due to the conditions and all the industry emphasis at the time. In our training, we were all a bit freaked because we flew in LOTS of ice (Alaska), in a susceptible airframe (DHC-6) and also the Dash 8, and could see how someone could easily get it wrong. And one more thing, when extending flaps in or after icing conditions, if there is any stall indication then you retract the flaps to the previous position, which is consistent with this FO's actions. The only thing I disagree with is the Q-400's elevators being hydraulically powered. Otherwise, you have perfectly stated what I have always suspected for years with this accident.

[@adb012]

@@jemez_mtn ... Happy that you liked it. Now, I didn't understand what is it that you disagree with.

[@mikesutherland6183]

Spot on :)

[@harrisongould9460]

I remember this accident, but did not know what happened behind the scenes. It took 13 years, with your help, to figure that out… So thank you.

[@MentourPilot]

You are welcome. Glad to have you here.

[@mediocreman2]

This information has been available a very long time.

[@JulianeDzwilewski]

Unfortunately, this crash had really shaken up several of my pilot friends - some of whom worked with this airline. I know some personal details regarding the captain’s abilities, but I don’t feel is appropriate to share. It was a huge wake-up call regarding crew schedules and rest.

[@josephconnor2310]

Thank you for sharing.

[@ayato4105]

My dad is a Saab 340 instructor and had met the captain before as he had been trained at the facility, he was working for Colgan as an instructor. He told me the reason the captain most likely pulled back on the stick was because he had multiple 100 feet infractures not only in the simulator but in actual flying time If he broke that 100 feet decent, an investigation into his training would have been done and he would likely lose his pilot license or further more be downgraded to an FO.

[@Chriss-Gear]

I knew one of his instructors. He had no business being a Captain. He very likely should not have been in the cockpit at all. Very sad for his family and all involved. I will leave it at that as this is a public forum. At least the way pilots are trained to recover from stalls has changed. The FAA used to mandate minimum loss of altitude in the stall recovery. The “don’t lose more than 100’” rule. That has been changed to the proper method of stall recovery as discussed in this video.

[@mattym8]

Wow. That is scary. Huge detail!

[@rtbrtb_dutchy4183]

100 feet infractions? No such thing.

[@rtbrtb_dutchy4183]

@@Chriss-Gear sadly, this is the problem in the airline world. When a pilot mentions another pilots inabilities, the reporting pilot always get nasty comments how they are not a team player. Then when an accident or incident happens, other pilots always come out the wood works and say: “I saw that coming” or “ l’m not surprised”

[@EdOeuna]

The good thing about turbo props, in a stall recovery, is that the increase in thrust drags air over the wing so increasing airflow and helping with stall recovery. You don’t need to lower the nose to 5° below the horizon to recover the stall, just a degree or two, in combination with thrust, will be enough to recover from the stall.

[@ciprian7243]

One thing I love about the channel is that no matter how well you know the details of an accident you still find new stuff in every video. Chapeau, sir, really nice.

[@merediths2cents]

You did an excellent job describing the crash… hairs stood up on my neck. Cannot imagine the way the passengers felt. (Pilots are busy trying to keep the equipment airborne.. passengers have nothing to occupy their minds).

[@rediop4309]

Most of them were either sleeping (02 o'clock AM) or just eyes closed. They didn't see their death coming.

[@Rhezoloution]

I would guess when plane is almost upside down you wake up

[@Mystipaoniz]

in these times, if you have nothing to occupy your mind, it means you're already dead ^^

[@tanchella]

I think ot is not about being busy or not, but about being in control of your fate. For that reason I find it is scary as hell to be in the front passenger seat of a car, compared to driving myself.

[@danielnevin8777]

no sleeping through that unfortunately

[@rebeccamoon5766]

This is probably one of the most upsetting accidents I've heard of. It's haunting. But Petter always approaches these incidents with great sensitivity, and I'm really excited to hear his perspective!

[@MentourPilot]

I hope you won’t be disappointed. It is a very upsetting story.

[@joshlampe3458]

I always have a tough time with controlled flight into terrain accidents that end in loss of life. The only saving grace of this tragedy are the changes it triggered in the industry.

[@respectdawildo_danjones508]

Look up how much the co pilot was getting paid, and you’ll be even more outraged btw If that’s the “reward” wtf is the point?? May as well not even care

[@joshlampe3458]

@@respectdawildo_danjones508 Exactly. That was the biggest change this accident triggered; no more unlivable wages in the industry. The regionals were basically paying these folks minimum wage and they were forced to live in hostels and use airports as sleeping quarters.

[@respectdawildo_danjones508]

@@joshlampe3458 insanity! Really made me furious and I’m not even in the industry. Waitresses make more, and they are in charge of lives. Smh, captain wasn’t making much either, but to pay them LESS then friggin welfare wages, have them travel across the country, no hotels? Then throw them under the bus? Unbelievable smh

[@Mark-oj8wj]

The sterile cockpit is one of the first things to suffer under extended taxi delays. Try spending 4 hours sitting in a queue at jfk and not chit chatting. It's definitely a threat and can be hard to get back in gear for the departure!

[@MentourPilot]

Yep, that’s the issue

[@donaldwilson5693]

Anyone that thinks there no chit chat going on while you're stopped on the taxiway with the parking brake set during an extended taxi is dreaming.

[@codures]

"So where were we?": Recovery from a chit-chat to the exact position/mindset when conversation had diverged is a variable human feature, we don't regain that at the same speed nor with the same amount of information.

[@TianarTruegard]

Kind of hard to sit for 4 hours on a taxiway doing almost nothing just waiting for your turn and still remember what you were doing even if you're not "chatting" about non work. Best thing I would think to do in that situation is to re-brief each other as you get close to the runway to refresh your memory of what you're doing. How long can you wait idling on a taxiway before you need to have a truck bring more fuel anyhow?

[@mytech6779]

@@TianarTruegard 4 hours isn't legal with passengers anyway.

[@maryhines322]

This happened many years ago, and at the time we heard "newfangled turboprop with a fancy airfoil, couldn't handle ice, the pilots didn't know it was stalled because they were on autopilot", all completely untrue. Thank you for straightening this out. A tragedy I think about often even now. In a quiet neighborhood of Buffalo is a grass yard that used to have a house where people lived.

[@glissandogirl]

This happened in my hometown. Buffalo is a tight knit city and when you’re flying in, usually the other passengers are mostly people live there or are visiting family who do. I was a kid in 2009 but I remember everyone at least knew someone who knew someone who was on that flight. It really shook the community for a long time. It’s almost surreal hearing it described in such a technical way. Thank you so much for covering it.

[@endokrin7897]

Sorry for your loss

[@RichardTurlington]

I've lived in Buffalo since 1980 - and I would not call it a "tight knit" community by any stretch. This crash was a big deal to everyone because #1 Buffalo is a smaller city than most places you'd expect this to happen and #2 it happened near Clarence center (a suburb of Buffalo) where most of the Buffalo Sabres hockey players live. Don't tell me people living in the inner city of Buffalo are "tight knit" with those in Alden, Depew, Lancaster, East Aurora, Springville, etc. LOL. Buffalo (the city proper) almost elected "Inida Walton" as their mayor - she's a certified racist nutjob. We suburb people are in no way "tight knit" with the nitwits that would vote for her, or Mark PolonCUNTZ for that matter.

[@murphski702]

Spent 3 days at this scene as a paramedic. The sights as the sun came up over Long Street that morning were surreal. I stood in the yard next door (the house that was damaged and had to be demolished) and touched the tail section of the plane. Something I will never forget as long as I live. I also had to fly to NC that summer, Aug 2009. The first leg was a Continental Connection Q400 Dash 8 from Buffalo to Newark. It was an unnerving flight for sure. I now despise take off and landing, especially the approach. That accident is why I started watching your channel.

[@DBEdwards]

A nightmare. I couldn't get over it if it happened to me. I would be out.

[@jamesboglioli7785]

I live down the street from where this crash happened, and heard it crash. This is by far the best and most detailed description I have seen. Love all your videos, and glad that I have a good reference to know exactly what happened that night.

[@birdkings]

I lived not far from the Buffalo airport when this crash happened and it still shakes me to my core. The home that the flight came down on is now a memorial for those who died and the families of survivors still advocate for safe flying conditions to this day. If I recall correctly there were two other people in the home at the time- wife and daughter of the man who died. I can't imagine how drastically this has shifted the course of their lives.

[@shatteredshards8549]

The wife wrote a book about surviving that accident and the aftermath, she said that her husband had gone upstairs to bed and she was still in the main level of the house when it happened. 😞

[@SiddharthJaggavarapu]

I lived in buffalo at the time too. It was crazy to think a flight had crashed on houses there.

[@barbaraseymour3437]

Allister.. …and I think it was a miracle that the wife and daughter survived.

[@melodiefrances3898]

I lost my brother to random gun violence. I imagine it's like that only worse ... 😥💔

[@flagmichael]

@@melodiefrances3898 That gets into the range of "what is the worst thing that can happen?" When our world is shattered without any warning it is always horrible.

[@PatrickMetzdorf]

It's notable that, during taxi, the captain couldn't stop running his mouth, while the 1st officer kept quiet and only said "yea" every now and then, likely because she knew they shouldn't get into personal convos during that time but she couldn't tell the much older and more experienced Cptn to shut up.

[@NicolaW72]

Indeed, exactly.

[@PatrickMetzdorf]

@Melon Husk SJW, because the co-pilot randomly happens to be a woman? Buahaha

[@GUITARTIME2024]

Yep. He was yapping a lot on the flight.

[@melodiefrances3898]

@@PatrickMetzdorf oh yeah, this is SOOOOOO funny. Never-ending that it has been said dozens of times when both pilots were male. But, hey, it gives you two ***** the opportunity to laugh at people who were killed in a plane crash. Keeping it classy 😵‍💫🤮

[@MarkPentler]

Basically you missed the ? and what it represented in the big block of text

[@Niinsa62]

Excellent explanation! That part you mentioned, about pilots being judged by how much altitude they lost during stall recovery. And how that might have caused the accident. Because he was concentrating more on maintaining altitude, than on keeping the aircraft flying, even if it meant losing a few hundred feet extra. So sad, how rules meant to make people safer, might do the opposite.

[@Adam6224x]

I'm a pilot with mere 20 hours after my licence, but I had goosebumps seeing the capitan pulling the stick instead of pushing forward. you train this during literally your first flight lesson.

[@c0r5e]

Even many noob sim flyers will have this feeling as well

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

I can see how avoiding the ground seems natural when one tries not to crash. But in that situation they didn't need more altitude, they needed more speed. And one of the simplest way to gain speed is to fly down, gravity does the rest.

[@MidnightRoselle222]

Its also common sense in my mind that if you are going slowly, you wouldn't want to gain altitude since you lose speed and make the engines work harder when climbing. I am only 22 and never even flown as a passenger, but I know that. I also know that flaps help keep the lift of a plane up with lower speeds so raising flaps would have made the plane harder to control and more apt to fall from the sky. I think I watch these videos and other informational videos on flying a bit too much, but maybe someday I can become a pilot myself, with a lot of training of course

[@colinjacobs176]

I'm a glider pilot, can you imagine how instinctive getting the nose down is for us! Pulling back at low speed is suicide.

[@gusplaer]

@@colinjacobs176 ya, but pushing down while close to the ground might be as well. Alas, we weren't there.

[@gnicholson4231]

Petter. This discrepancy of the pilot training between USA and Europe has always both interested and worried me. You mentioned the minimum training in Europe of 250 hours, but in UK that is only if one attends an 'Approved Training Course' i.e. full time with highly qualified instructors and syllabus. I assume that to be the case in other European countries. The US requirement of 1500 hours seems to be satisfied by flying around in light aircraft. I did my training at an 'Approved' course and was surprised at the level our great instructors got us to, in the then, 225 hours. We were then checked out by CAA Examiners, not delegated instructors. We then went straight to airline type training. At no point did I feel under-trained, inexperienced yes, but not under-trained because of the strict examination system.

[@louissanderson719]

I’m pretty sure modular students that didn’t go to CTC FTE etc… have got airline jobs right off the bat… maybe not with EZY. But I’m sure plenty have gone other places

[@Promotall]

virtually no info on this subject. My daughter British born FAA qualified CFii has 700 hrs gained with a work permit even when she reaches 1,500 hrs by the time this permit expires she won't get a job (non US citizen) and will need to undertake an additional 8 months conversion training for either EASA or ICAO

[@colin-nekritz]

As a person living in Buffalo, this is one of the best videos on this disaster. A mutual friend of our family lived only a block away, she saw things as she walked towards the burning wreckage no about of therapy will erase.

[@talex7473]

I knew Shaw and had helped her and her husband move into their new home shortly before this happened. She was the nicest person you could ever meet. This was such a tragedy.

[@MentourPilot]

😥😥 Oh no! I’m so sorry for your loss.

[@talex7473]

@@MentourPilot Thank you, it seems like yesterday. And thank you for the excellent detailed video regarding this!

[@mattym8]

Very sorry to hear you lost a friend in this tragedy.

[@LiveFreeOrDie2A]

Unprofessional, non-stop chit chat about personal life in the workplace that lead to catastrophic results.. and a woman was in the cockpit- any questions as to what the cause was? NO! This is another example of why woman are simply not cut out to be in a high demand workplace

[@EXROBOWIDOW]

@@LiveFreeOrDie2A The man was not cut out for it either. Or is it somehow OK for a man to be doing chitchat, but not OK for a woman? Just a little bit of a double standard here. And, by the way, millions of women are in a high demand workplace: 24/7 with children. It's called the home.

[@ChazAdams]

This accident actually happened 1 mile from my childhood home and I knew the family whos house it was as well as a passenger, thanks for the great detail on what went wrong as always

[@endokrin7897]

Thoughts and prayers

[@jeremyaks69]

I just watched the Mayday episode on this crash and came back to re-watch this one. Mentour Pilot truly does an amazing job and this is so much more informative than most air crash essays.

[@VosperCDN]

I'm not a pilot (game/sims notwithstanding) and even I knew you push the stick forward when near a stall ... bloody heck, and retracting the flaps when already in a low speed condition was crazy. And that bit about the captain hiding his previous failures, unbelievable.

[@TheAkashicTraveller]

If you find yourself in that situation and your training hasn't been enough to instill the appropriate instinctive reaction knowing what you should do isn't going to help. You need to be trained such that you just do it without thinking because with the sudden stress you're not going to be able to think.

[@lilia3944]

@@TheAkashicTraveller If the training put so much focus on keeping the altitude, it might've been part of instilling the wrong reaction in this case. Instinctive reactions often override all knowledge - knowing the theory doesn't win you a fencing match either.

[@VosperCDN]

@@Capecodham Simulators .. Flight Sims, common shortening of the full names; things like MS Flight Simulator, Aces High II, other combat and civilian 'games'.

[@Blazo_Djurovic]

@@lilia3944 And given captain's spotty history with testing, it's quite likely he got nearly slapped on some training with loosing too much altitude or he focused REALY HARD on the thing that could fail him more than on actually key part of the whole point of the exercise.

[@jorge8596]

@@Capecodham What did you do with the time saved by not using a question mark?

[@communalnoodle1356]

Im always happy to see the notification that there's a new Mentour Pilot/Mentour Now video. As an "AV Geek" I've always found your videos to be the most informative, I like the way you don't fill them with garbage/bad acting like TV shows do, instead you're straight to the point and at the same time respectful of the people who passed and their families.

[@sharoncassell9358]

Some of those click bait dramas are not the real deal. These are more descriptive and thorough. Much more informative and accurate. Thanx.

[@grmpEqweer]

@@sharoncassell9358 Petter is very dry and calm. It's soothing.

[@duder24567]

Great to hear you discuss this accident. That house the flight hit was about ten minutes from me, and right down the street from my church. Really hit the community hard so its incredibly reassuring to know that even though it was such a tragedy, its hopefully saved some lives since then

[@AFloridaSon]

Thank you for what you do Petter. I'm always amazed at how much detail you put into these, along with your ability to explain it in layman's terms.

[@MentourPilot]

Yes, these tragic events deserves attention to detail and we try our best to live up to that.

[@TopGun5]

@@MentourPilot Keep up the great work Peter, we love your videos as they made with excellence! Greetings from the Boston,MA.

[@JackdeDuCoeur]

I second that - always well researched and well explained. Nice work.

[@laratheplanespotter]

I really liked the moment of silence after the impact. Very thoughtful. Thank you, Petter 😢

[@mikemurphy5898]

"Tasks disapproved were takeoffs, landings, go-arounds and performance maneuvers." That sounds like... everything.

[@wheelie26]

It’s crazy that pilots can omit such important information when filling out an appplication. I hope that there is now a centralised directory that airlines can access when employing a new pilot. This accident was so unfortunate and could so easily have been avoided. My thoughts on these videos are always with the families who have lost people, including passenger, staff and those on the ground.

[@MentourPilot]

Yes, this accident led to rules making it possible for airlines to verify the training history of pilots applying.

[@wheelie26]

@@MentourPilot that’s good, as a passenger I would like to think that the people in control of whether I get to my destination or not are competent at their jobs. Thank you so much for making these videos, I’ve learned so much since I began watching them. You and your team must work very hard to get all the details and you present them in a way that a person with no flying experience, other than sitting in a plane, can understand, so thank you.

[@FNLNFNLN]

The US is allergic to centralizing things, even when it's the objectively best solution.

[@wheelie26]

@@FNLNFNLN it makes no sense when your name clearly states that you are the United States! Maybe it should change to loads of different states, LODS I think it’s quite catchy!!

[@wheelie26]

@T.J. Kong that’s the point to make everything as safe as possible, I believe there was one thing he failed 4 times and he lied on his application and said only once (which is all the company allowed) then there were a couple of other things he was only just competent and needed improvement. There needs to be a specific level of competence in all jobs but there peoples lives are a stake then there should be centralised records of exams and regular training.

[@michaeljuster67]

Petter, you did it again. This is by FAR the best explanation of an accident, that I’ve ever seen. I’ve read about this Colgan accident many times - but you provide much more info that I did not know about. Excellent video, my Swedish brother 👏👏👏

[@littlelumber]

I vividly remember this crash - and I had always thought the issue was ice on the wings, perhaps a story that stuck in the media, I don’t know. Thanks for the detailed report and setting the record straight, for me at least. Love your content! 🛩️

[@Silv3rM4st3r]

Very awesome video again, Petter. I love every second watching it, it's like a short documentation of one flight, perfectly to eat something or to chill. I have to say, when I heard that the Stick Shaker occurred and the PF decided to pull up I was like, "What?!", even for someone who hasn't any experience in flying but only binge-watched your videos I immediately knew that was something that you shouldn't do at ANY cost. Because if the Stick Shaker happens, you're meant to go down with the nose and not up... That was an avoidable accident and such a sad story. The 1500-hour rule also seems to me kind of pointless... because Pilots are usually trained a lot before they're allowed to fly any big commercial aircraft, so yeah... Thank you again Petter for this high quality video and the team behind it, you guys rock it.

[@MentourPilot]

Thank you! I’m glad you liked it and thank you for your thoughtful comment.

[@myparceltape1169]

Nothing to do with aviation or gaming but I am amazed at anyone pulling UP to get out of a stall. Had he imagined they were already on a go-around and the engines were at Full? Had some time slipped by him? Certainly he had a 1st officer to worry about. One who knew what to do and did it fast. It is sad.

[@biosparkles9442]

Agreed. I've never flown a plane in my life, nor have I ever played a flight sim game, but just from watching these videos (and others) I was absolutely baffled that the pilot pulled back on the controls. Like, that's just... not how planes work... how could a qualified pilot not know that?

[@myparceltape1169]

@@biosparkles9442 Unless he thought that the plane was further on in escape routine.? But we will never know and have nothing but our own imagination based on our own experiences.

[@biosparkles9442]

​@@myparceltape1169 Is that justification to pull up when you're faced with an aerodynamic stall warning?

[@ojonasar]

Part of this reminds me of the Air France crash in the Atlantic, where the pilots kept pulling back and the Airbus kept them from stalling, all the way to the ocean.

[@abc-wv4in]

That was the first thing that came to my mind.

[@Dilley_G45]

The Airbus didn't keep them...because of dual input.joystick the pilot couldn't see or override the constant pull on joystick by the f.o. Controls should be linked physically like in Boeing

[@tonydanielc7739]

​@@Dilley_G45You are also wrong. As long as the aircraft isn't in normal law and it's using alternate law 2 (if I remember correctly in case of af447), it will not have some protections active. So dual input has nothing to do with Airbus normal law protections.

[@Dilley_G45]

@@tonydanielc7739 I wasn't referring to modes just to the false concept of dual input. Controls should always be locked together...common sense

[@tonydanielc7739]

@@Dilley_G45 You said "the airbus didn't keep them because of dual input". No, the airbus didn't keep them from stalling because of the law it was operating in. If you meant something else, I guess it wasn't enunciated clear enough.

[@gfrede1]

I was in initial ground training at the airline the captain had flown at prior to Colgan. Literally a day or two after the accident, the FAA was in our classroom observing training and interviewing us about our perceived quality of training. Related to the 1500 hour rule, it’s my opinion that pilots have a lot of time to create bad habits from the average 250 hours they have when leaving flight trainjng until they get hired by the airlines at 1500 hours. Those habits have to be broken in the sim and on the line at the regionals. I don’t think the 1500 hour rule has done the U.S. Airline industry any good.

[@j.paulm.1575]

And it has the bonus effect of making the road to the airlines insurmountable if you want to be a flight instructor. I don't think they thought through the long term consequences of the 1500 hour rule.

[@onthefive5615]

Your commitment to leaving no stone unturned is the very foundation of real justice. Justice for the deceased and their bereaved families; even for airlines and aircraft manufacturers. You lay out the facts objectively, without language that expresses defensiveness or assigns blame. You are one of a kind and my appreciation and respect for your work knows no bounds.

[@bradcrosier1332]

Except unfortunately he left out the stone of tail plane stall, which was being trained at the time and was the maneuver which the crew inappropriately performed (albeit in an uncoordinated fashion). It’s inclusion makes the entire discussion and analysis much more complicated, but to be thorough it really should have been addressed. That said, at the end of the day, it was still inappropriate crew responses that led to the accident, with a lack of meaningful experience and fatigue as contributing factors.

[@leeross7896]

I am a private pilot with an instrument rating and over my lifetime I have managed to accumulate about 550 hours total time. I have flown with several "real" pilots. Lifetime crop dusters and others that feel and react to an aircraft with a 6th sense that always seems to be flawless. I have also had a few instructors with little or no feel for the aircraft and no real mechanical understanding of the aircraft systems . These are the people that should not really be pilots but they test well and they can be trained to repeat the procedures that are given on a check ride. Try as I might I have accepted that I will never be a real pilot but knowing this I have set my risk acceptance for every flight very low and I dont have paying passengers betting their lives on my ability to react instinctively and flawlessly in the event of an emergency.

[@douglasburnside]

The day after I received my pilot's license, I evaluated my skill level and my "feel" for the aircraft and its controls... and I never flew again. This was one of the best decisions I ever made! I would have been the poster boy for "gotta get home" risk taking and would have ended up as a statistic.

[@amrastheluckywoof5524]

If you know yourself well, that's the start of true wisdom. I won't judge anyone who values safety over "doing things anyway".

[@grmpEqweer]

I don't like what crop dusters do (as in the chemicals spread aren't good) but if I learned to fly, I would want to be able to fly like that.

[@EXROBOWIDOW]

@@douglasburnside There are a lot of drivers on the road who should be making this kind of decision. It seems I hear of more elderly drivers who refuse to give up driving when their skills diminish, than I do of drivers making the right decision. My mother-in-law was one of the latter. First she gave up driving at night. Later she gave up driving altogether. She also lived in a town where she could walk places, and family lived close by and could help her out with things, so it wasn't too hard for her to make that decision.

[@robertstewart3061]

@@douglasburnside I’m

[@jupiterjunk]

I remember reading the NTSB investigation about this. All I could think was "WHY DID HE PULL BACK !?!?!" and "FLAPS ZERO !?!?!"

[@ZekeBittersweet]

The biggest horror is when people not even in the plane end up as casualties in a crash. Maybe it's because when you get on a plane you know that there is, though very slim, a risk of an accident. But no one expects a plane to crash into their house. Hearing that makes you feel helpless to circumstance, even more so than being a passenger.

[@sevenatenine2441]

The inclusion of the Ref Speed switch is a very interesting detail I hadn't seen in previous coverage of the accident. All the attention was put on the incorrect reaction to the stick shaker and the retraction of the flaps. If the position of the switch had been spotted at any point it's very likely they would've landed without any incident.

[@wernerderchamp]

Modern accidents are always a combination of multiple mistakes. Which speaks for the security of modern aviation.

[@MentourPilot]

Yes! Without that detail we would never have heard about this flight 😥

[@KeenanTims]

It seems like an easy mistake to make. Combined with having someone outside the cockpit doing performance calculations, this system & procedure presents a pretty big risk. Hopefully one or both elements was improved, because it seems like the report doesn't say much about that aspect.

[@CaptHollister]

I can't help but think that this particular captain was just an accident waiting to happen.

[@topethermohenes7658]

@@Capecodham why do you keep on correcting people with that? It's called reference and ref is a shortcut for it, same with simulator with sim. Ref term is used more even on operating manuals. Aviation uses terms like this in a normal basis, stop correcting people, they are using the right terms and not for saving time asshat

[@brianshickey]

Petter, your description of aerodynamics, lift, angle of attack and stalling was ‘absolutely fantastic’. I especially liked how you used the hand outside the car window when driving to further explain the phenomenon. It’s why so many of us love your channel as you are a brilliant narrator.

[@johnbeach7564]

I really appreciate your note on the minimum 1,500 hours rule and it’s effects on the number of pilots in the US. I wanted to be a commercial pilot when I was growing up but the cost of getting those hours ultimately made it feel unattainable. I’m 24 and working in video production now, I’d still love to get my pilot’s license at some point but the dream of flying commercially is long gone for me

[@robloggia]

The fact that you feel at 24 that you're missed your chance is nothing short of a crime. I'm sorry. I'm also sorry that I can't do anything more than offer an apology.

[@giftofthewild6665]

You're still plenty young enough to do it if you want. Could always get your license and then move to Europe or the UK where the rules are different and you don't need so many hours?

[@FlywithMagnar]

Competence is much more important than flight hours in the log book. I have seen pilots with thousands of hours strugling with basic instrument maneuvers in a simulator. And I have flown with competent pilots with just a few hundred hours of experience. There have been several accidents where the pilot had a less than perfect training record.

[@MentourPilot]

My point exactly Magnar. I will soon release a video on Mentour NOW about this pointless 1500 rule.

[@tomvanthuyne]

Indeed, while watching (many) videos of accidents, I often was wondering why mentioning the total flying hours was always there. It's not while crossing the ocean on Autopilot that you learn about handling critical situations, is it? I think it would make more sence to mention the total time in the sim, practicing emergency situations, don't you think?

[@aerospaceguy4639]

@@MentourPilot agreed much. As I plan to become a pilot in the US in the near future, this 1500 Rule really shuts off light at the end of the tunel for me. The extra costs, permits and flight hours needed to be gained just to fly a commerical just are so much. Whilst in EUROPE its only a matter of around 250 hours for somethin similar i believe (correct me if i'm wrong). I will try and petition, for the next generation of pilot including myself, a reduction or removal of this 1500 rule. Great Video once again!

[@adb012]

There have been also several quasi-accidents that were saved by the junior FO when the captain was screwing up badly, and several where the FO could not save the day (due to cockpit gradient or the experienced captain ignoring the warning of the FO). I remember one case, I think it was a 727, where they had a decompression event. The very senior Captain and FE starting to troubleshot without donning their masks. The very junior FO instead followed procedures, immediately donned his mask and started an emergency descent. The captain passed out and the FE donned his mask and went to assist the captain. He tried use his mask to give O2 to the captain and passed out in the process. Then a senior FA came breathing with a portable O2 gear, and tried to use it to help the captain and FE, and she also passed out. Everybody regained consciousness when the plane descended to a low-enough altitude thanks to the junior FO executing an emergency procedure alone in a plane that requires a flight crew of 3. Of course, there had also been cases of the opposite of the contrary, where a senior flight crew saves the day from the mistakes of the junior one. But that kind of proves the point. It is not the flight time that counts. Not by themselves anyway. It is airmanship (a combination of knowledge, skills and , especially, goo judgement). A lot of flight hours can help with airmanship but it can also be detrimental (complacency, many hours 99.9% flying on autopilot and losing manual flying skills, etc...).

[@richardlewis4288]

@@MentourPilot looking forward to that video. My son in law flys for United regional CommutAir and passed his interview to move up to United Airlines mainline after another 2000 hours! The pipeline is very arduous.

[@griparian]

I don't know how you do everything that is part of your weekly routine: Viz: Flying, Teaching, KZbin Channel Research about Aviation Accidents and the Delivery of a show, and Family Relationships and I'm sure there is more you do that is behind the scenes involving each activity and more. What I love about your channel, is that you are an expert in your field, teaching me about Aircraft Accidents and the following Investigations that are both fascinating and engaging, and what a relief, that I wasn't on that plane.... lol. I love hearing from you the science of how an aircraft flies, and the protocol that every pilot needs to follow, to get their plane in the air and to land safely. A slight variation on our KZbin moniker neatly describes your role in the industry, ie: 'A Mentor' for budding pilots and for anybody else who wants to be schooled about the Airline business and about how not to make the same mistakes that have led to tragedy in the past. The more I watch your channel, the more I get an idea about the mandatory and 'Best-Practices' related to how a plane should be flown. In your own words, you run an "Absolutely Fantastic" show. Many Thanks.🙏

[@EdOeuna]

I learned about this many years ago. My airline used it as an example of poor performance in icing conditions rather than pilot fatigue and how bad decisions were likely made through tiredness.

[@franziskani]

pilot was startled and likely tried to correct an imagined tail stall (training of that had been pushed by the FAA, and both pilots had received such training in the year before). Of course he did not have time to think it through. Falling back on this routine was not completely crazy, because that type of stall is often caused by ice build up at the tail.

[@charlescollins7426]

I wish a channel like this existed when I was a kid. Only thing that went into detail about planes was Plane Disasters. So happy KZbin allows for niche interests like this. An actual pilot who talks to us about everything aviation. I've found my home 😭

[@ChadDidNothingWrong]

If YT executives had it their way, there would only be five channels: ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, and CNN

[@charlescollins7426]

@@ChadDidNothingWrong Why do you say that? KZbin could've did that if they wanted to. They could've put an application in process for every creator and every video someone wants to put out. Sometimes if the content is questionable they won't promote it but it still gets uploaded.

[@bulk04]

Given the age of the captain and the length of time he had been flying, I was kind of surprised at how little flight time he had. My daughter, who is 32, probably has as much flight time as he had. She started out in a cadet program here in Canada with Jazz a little under 10 years ago flying the Dash 8-300. She is currently an Air Canada captain flying the Airbus A220-300.

[@Danr657]

I was surprised also but not everyone starts out young or flies a lot each year

[@DavesHangar1958]

They were absolutely hurting for Pilots and Pilots were being qualified as Captain with a lot less time under their belt than they are required to have now. Back then you only had to have 500 hours to qualify for the right seat.

[@drewfliesbikes]

some regional pilots don’t rack up flight hours as fast as other operations. It varies.

[@ShalomShalom-d5c]

Congrats to your daughter! And you must be so proud. Thats awesome!! Women my age wld never have been allowed to be pilots. Glad things have changed.

[@bulk04]

@@ShalomShalom-d5c She had decided at the age of 9 (when she took her first trip on a plane) that being a commercial pilot was what she wanted to do and never wavered from that goal. She went to a college in Toronto which got her all the flying licences/endorsements she required and a degree on top of that. There were 2 other women in her graduating class of approximately 40 graduates. Both of them are pilots with Air Canada as well, following in their father's footsteps.

[@paulwilliams2663]

I'm horrified Petter, as a Dr we are thoroughly vetted through what's known as a DBS system, in the UK (Disclosure and Barring Service). Whereby a check is made with all previous employers, police, medical council and authorities et al. Standard procedure as people place their life and wellbeing in our hands. This is precisely what we do when we board an airliner, place ours in yours. A truly horrific incident was needed seemingly, to enact this in such a high stakes profession. Great informative content. May they all RIP.

[@mtz2273]

I was coming to make this comment. I work in US healthcare and that physicians have to keep track of and report is very detailed and there are organizations we are required to check as well. Seems so counterintuitive that pilots didn't have similar requirements/reports in the 2000s....

[@paulwilliams2663]

@@mtz2273 I was astonished, I take 4 flights per month, UK to Serbia (2 outward 2 return, no direct flights from my region) and I'm an aerophobe. An oversight, with untold consequences, truly frightening. I seek comfort in the stats, but will always be a passenger, timorous.

[@londonalicante]

Dr Williams, I missed that you are a doctor not a pilot on first reading, and was confused by the reference to DBS. I suggest you write the word doctor in full.

[@paulwilliams2663]

@@londonalicante Well to be precise, I am an orthopod. In the UK, ROI and to a lesser extent, the commonwealth, we are known as Mr. Although, at some stage, have all been Dr.

[@fred932]

A checkride failure sometimes comes down to a bad examiner who has an ax to grind.

[@Jim_Jimworth]

This was really informative. Importantly, you've covered 1.) what was supposed to happen, 2.) why that's important, 3.) what they did instead, 4.) why that deviation might have occurred, 5.) the results of the deviation from procedure, and even 6.) the real-world effect of well-intentioned but misguided reactive regulation. I feel smarter after each of your videos - Petter, you are really skilled at teaching complex things to (potentially) simple folks. Thank you!

[@silvertbird1]

This one bothered me when I first learned about it. A perfectly functioning aircraft made to crash - how different from other flights in which a damaged aircraft is miraculously saved by an expert crew. No disrespect to the captain, may he rest in peace, but some people should not be pilots. I certainly include myself in that - as much as I love aviation (and I was once ground crew in an F14 Tomcat squadron in Navy ages ago) I know that I don’t have the temperament or quick thinking/focus to pilot an aircraft. It’s actually painful to know that plane was trying to save itself and everyone onboard but the pilot and to a lesser extent, the FO made critical errors that doomed everyone. I don’t ever want a job where if I screw up, everyone dies. The wife of the man killed in the house wrote a book, I’ve been meaning to read it. It was a pretty horrific scene, but miraculously she and a daughter in the house somehow survived. I’ve always wanted to fly in one of those little Dash planes, but guess they’re mostly going out of service and I’ve never seen one anywhere around my area. Seem to use them in Canada still.

[@Videos888]

Probably people like you, who, after he kills so many people, are so afraid to "disrespect" him-- were too afraid to fire him or fail him and therefore are responsible for all these deaths also.

[@melodiefrances3898]

@@Videos888 wtf?

[@ephraimh1434]

Thank you for your service.

[@DipanGhosh]

Petter, I used to watch the Air Crash Investigation series, but this series from you is far better. Please continue your work Captain.

[@captante9889]

I'm not a pilot just a flight enthusiast but I LOVE your videos because my passion is REALLY understanding how things happen. Please keep up the great work! 🙂

[@PAS_2020]

I remember that crash I will never forget it. This was my first real venture into real time video on iPhone. I was shocked as the news poured out about the pilot and copilot errors. And I feel like yesterday the pain as I watched the plane actually in flames in real time. Horrible.

[@jerry-sb1238]

real time video on iphone?

[@PAS_2020]

@@jerry-sb1238 Yes. LIVE news broadcast. The plane was burning on the ground and they had no idea what was going on, what it was, how it came to be. They were in pure panic mode.

[@hollyberrytea]

I remember the day when this happened. It was fairly close to my house. So many sirens going off, so many police, firemen, EMT. Basically any station nearby seemed to be heading over there. My friend who was MUCH closer to it had send me a video of all the flames and people running around in a panic to try to put out the flames and help anyone that they could. It's a miracle that no one else was hurt with the plane crashing in a residential area. RIP to the flight and the people on the ground.

[@kimmer6]

This crash showed up on the news one cold night in NorCal as I was watching. The video showed the flames and the neighbor's driveway with basketball hoop on the garage. Within one minute I looked up the site on Google Earth and identified the home that was destroyed. The homeowner and his cat were killed and his wife and daughter escaped as I found out later. 14 years later this crash still bothers me. The man who was killed in his home was named Doug and he had a big sports memorabilia collection that was destroyed. I'm sorry for all of the lives lost. I will never forget Doug's name.

[@LizzCatt]

I get so excited when I get this notification! Your explanation of these accidents and incidents are always so good!

[@MentourPilot]

Thank you! We always try to do our best to make these tragic events justice.

[@real_Tyles]

Even as a student pilot, I really can't understand why they pulled back on the yoke increasing their angle of attack after the stick shaker when, it's very obviously the the counter-productive thing you could do in that scenario..?

[@obitouchiha4739]

It's because in their training they were taught to do that. They eventually got rid of it after this accident.

[@fosterfamilyfaith]

We lived in that area years ago and have old friends who knew a young woman who died on this flight very well. We knew her family as well. The plane crashed in her home town where her parents still lived and they could see the crash flames from their house. Such a tragic story.

[@WayneM1961]

I think one of the best and most important things to come out of these video's Captain Petter, is that lessons are learnt.

[@billkeenan1085]

Good job on this one, Petter, I've been on the Q400 for about 12 years now and just finished my last CQ. There was plenty of humility to go around even after this many years in the airplane. I'm not certain of Colgan practices and procedures, but there are a few things left unsaid about systems and technique in this incident. I'd love to have a discussion with you some day if you ever find the time. I do pass on the occasional recommendation to our CRM group to watch a few of your videos. Keep them rolling-good stuff there. Big fan.

[@richardlawson5929]

You've got me so well-trained, @Mentour Pilot, that I automatically cringe when you say things like, "After the stall warning, the pilot pulled back on the stick."

[@MentourPilot]

Yeah, that’s what I’m hoping. That someone somewhere will remember this when something bad is about to happen so they can avoid it.

[@andyharpist2938]

Too right Mr Lawson. I have over 150 hours of aircraft instruction with Mentour now.

[@NicolaW72]

@@andyharpist2938 😀

[@bertblankenstein3738]

@@andyharpist2938 haha, who needs flight school when you have Mentour Pilot?

[@andyharpist2938]

@@bertblankenstein3738 Indeed Bert, training is fun with Petter, and often with a bottle of chilled Pinot Grigio laying behind the throttle controls. 🙂

[@TheOnlyTaps]

RIP to those that lost their lives in this 🙏🏿💔...also great watch as always. One thing I'll always respect about the aviation industry is how they learn and improve from all these mistakes. Nothing is always going to be perfect as with everything in life but credit to them for always learning and evolving because we know the margin of error is very small in an industry like this. Keep up the great work and great coverage 🙏🏿💜

[@MentourPilot]

Thank you! Yes, that’s the point I’m always trying to make.. 💕

[@adb012]

The level of safety that the transport aviation industry achieved, by c combination of designing equipment and procedures to avoid that accidents happen, and then by learning and improving when accidents do happen, is just ridiculous. For example, the A320 and 737 have a fatal hull loss accident rate of about 8 of those accidents every 100 million flights!!!! That means that if you take 2 flights per day every single day of your live since you are born, on average you would become involved in a fatal plane crash at the age of 17000 years old. And that doesn't even mean that you would necessarily die, since many fatal hull loss accidents have survivors, sometimes almost everybody survives a fatal airplane crash (think for example Asiana's 777 at SFO).

[@TheNavypilot321]

I'm a CFI currently grinding out my 1500 hours in a 70s model Cessna 172 hoping that someone in congress sees your video and makes a change

[@seanmcerlean]

Very well explained Petter. A totally avoidable accident like many.

[@MentourPilot]

Correct

[@PeriMedic1]

This is such an important accident to me, personally. My company had just ordered its first Q400 and our office/hanger was next door to Colgan. The first I knew of it was coming to work and seeing all the news crews in the parking lot. I eventually flew on the Q for 9 years and loved that plane. She is beautiful. Many of the changes to FAA rules were needed. Of course, in my opinion, the biggest FAA change needed is the end of it’s dual mandate and focus only on safety.

[@Scott_Alex]

Hello 👋 How are you doing today?

[@arielricardoletizia9516]

From Argentina, I just started my pilot carrer at 41 and i’m addicted to your videos.. now i have a little more knowledge of aviation in general i found your videos really educational, not judging not making fun, just try to learn some about this incidents! My congratulations to you!

[@SquirrelRIP]

There are details in this video that I have never heard anywhere else. A great presentation. Thank you Mentor & the team 👍

[@Khartric]

At 1:20 you have the location labeled as Seattle Washington DC. It's just Seattle, Washington. Washington D.C. is a completely different location and on the east coast in Maryland between Virginia.

[@Xion-Rotti]

I work a trade job and have kept this lil saying close to my heart since I started. “There’s a difference between 20 years of experience and 1 year of experience 20 times.”

[@tj0cktj0ck]

Thank you for these videos Petter. Youre the man. I am very scared of flying, so I know i should not be watching these kind of videos. But cant help it, it is too interesting. Also very emotional for me. Many times i have started crying during these videos where loss of life is present. This accident reminds me alot of Air France 447, where the FO in that case held backstick for a looong time during the stall and we dont know why. Stay safe everyone.

[@soenkebartling3438]

Thought the same - the relation of handling a stall and earlier training ... makes it similar to AF 447....

[@soenkebartling3438]

Re 447, I don't know how deep you dug in AF 447: A warning that was out of normal range due to the faulty pitot tube started each time when he released back pressure ... However, still he (in arm-chair hind sight) should have pushed the stick anyway earlier or later.

[@davidp2888]

What a tragedy that could have been avoided simply by following procedures. Your coverage of this was very sensitive and thorough.

[@jasonatube]

Following procedure, along with other factors, is what caused the tragedy. The FAA is partially to blame. They pushed a tail-stall recovery technique to turbo-prop operators during this era which the pilots performed. They thought they were tail stalled, that's why they behaved exactly the opposite as normal, because the recovery technique was exactly the opposite as a wing stall recovery.

[@meinsouza]

crazy that checking the transcript from the first sound of stick shaker to the plane being on the ground it took just 25 seconds....life can truly change in an instant

[@daver00lzd00d]

it literally fell out of the sky, that's why the impact was confined to a single house. it's incredible that not only was one single home impacted but that 2 of 3 people inside that home escaped alive

[@judebrad]

I use the same Q400 used here in X-Plane 11/12 and you really do have to keep an eye on the speeds even in the sim on the approach. It's not a set-and-forget ILS aircraft unlike the 737 or Airbus family - this aircraft demands (even in the sim) constant attention in the landing phases of flight.

[@NicolaW72]

Thanks for this information.

[@dieselyeti]

I recall reading a possible reason for the captain's pulling back on the yoke was that he may have thought he had a tail stall. It may have been hard to differentiate a normal stall from a tail stall because of the stick shaker firing.

[@melodiefrances3898]

I have read this too.

[@manda903]

I live in Buffalo. This was a huge tragedy and definitely shocking.

[@sailaab]

Yet another well put and EXCELLENT presentation. . One of the finest debriefs and analysis of this incident.

[@MentourPilot]

Thank you. My team and I are really trying our best to get the details right.

[@sailaab]

🤍🤗🤍🤍

[@nyanbinary1717]

I’ve always thought about the FO’s head cold. I’ve had a cold while flying and the air pressure bearing down on my ears and sinuses throughout the flight was extraordinarily painful. I get migraines and it was almost worse. I could easily see how that would be a big distraction for her in addition to everything else.

[@jkylemoses]

This is one of the strangest crash incidents I’ve ever learned about. I’m not pilot, but been fascinated by it my whole life. Just from that and 10 hours of flight training I know the last thing to do is to pull up when reaching critical aoa.

[@StretchyJackson]

This is why their specific airline training was mentioned. Sim training is a jeopardy event where, if you fail, your career could be in jeopardy. Not sure how colgan handled special training but most airlines will track you after failures and you can be downgraded or terminated if you don't improve. Given this pilot's history, they were likely incredibly adherent to the passing criteria to the point to where it took their attention away from the bigger picture. What if one of their failures was because they lost more than 100ft in a stall recovery? There's a blemish on the record even though they safely recovered according to what is now the industry standard. Yet they were forced to work with a 100ft window or have their certificate in jeopardy. If you take a fatigued pilot and put them in a (albeit self-induced) surprised stick shaker situation their automatic response will be to revert to training. In this case that would seem to prioritize maintaining altitude above all else, which caused the actual stall. Two big factors that would have prevented are changing stall training at that airline, and forcing airlines to pay pilots a salary that matches the cost of living in their base city or provide hotel rooms to commuters. This is still a huge problem today. Some airlines are providing commuter hotels out of desperation to attract pilots but it's not common.

[@supergeek0177]

This incident happened most directly as a result of bad working conditions as a by product of terrible corporate management style. The documentary by PBS was eye opening and I remember doing a detailed report on this focusing on these details for my uni degree. It’s a terrible situation most regional pilots have to endure, hence why I was hoping the other video Petter did about how the US needs to change over from regional to domestic services, the pay and conditions would vastly improve for the pilots in that case.

[@ninedaysjane2466]

It's a shame the Great Mentour spent so little time focusing on these aspects.

[@therkyn]

Thank you for expressing the craziness of the new hour rules due to this accident. It did not affect me, already well past the threshold, but many of my FOs would not have gotten the experience they got if this rule existed. Two Crew ops are dramatically different than CFI work or banner tow or jump plane pilot experience. Just guarantees single pilot focus hurting CRM until they unlearn their bad habits.

[@msmeyersmd8]

Excellent report. I'm a now retired (cost and 2 Sons) GA pilot with SEL and Instrument rating. I have about 500 +/- hours. Almost all VFR and 90+% Day VFR. I soloed on a Bellanca Citabria and my final airplane was a SIAI-Marchetti SF-260, with C-172, A-36 Bonanza, Bellanca Viking 300 in between. The Marchetti had a very small laminar flow wing and was very unforgiving of low speeds and flew fine until it didn't. The complete opposite of a C-172 wing. The P-51 Warbird 5 hour checkout pilot that insurance required me to get was very strict about speeds. Especially since our altitude here is ~3650 feet and 100+F are not unusual in the summer. He insisted on 90 kts over the numbers while controlling descent with power, stick and trim until the flare. Speed bled off very quickly when power was pulled back. It's windy and gusty here a lot and he thought that those should be my margins. It never caused me a problem. He also said to always wear a parachute. I did. The airplane had a canopy eject handle and had inverted inverted oil and fuel tank pickups. It ate up a lot of altitude just doing a loop. Minimum safe entrance altitude AGL after a 500-1000 foot dive for speed was 3000 feet AGL! And it had a nasty tendancy to snap at the the top of the loop if you had more than an ounce or two of backpressure on stick. He demonstrated that to me and I successfully avoided it. Because a sudden snap roll at the top of a loop scared the s**t out of me even though he told me he was going to do it. I pretty much stuck to barrel rolls/aileron rolls/4-point rolls at altitude. And Immelmann's or Lazy-8s in the vertical plane. Just for fun. He also told me to bail out if I had sufficient altitude as there had been no survivable off-field landings due to the high landing speeds and risk of a stall/spin in an engine out landing. Fun to fly. Expensive to own and insure. I had to have 250 hours of complex retract time to even get insurance on the airplane. Fortunately, I already had that. My Dad flew the brand new "Hot Rod" versions of the Dash-8, and loved it, with Horizon Airlines. It looks, to me, much more proportionate than the Q400, although I understand the purpose of the evolution. The long narrow chord wing just doesn't "look right". I have an engineering physics degree, and have read and studied about aviation and aerodynamics since I was a kid. In college we used the SR-71 in thermodynamics class studying the fuel flow to the skin for temperature control prior to being sent to the engines after this preheating of the extremely low vapor pressure fuel. So I have read about and understand some of the benefits of that style of wing. Without looking at the numbers it just "looks" to me like it would be more critical and unforgiving especially in the AOA changes and the inherent longitudinal stability of such a long fuselage? I write this all based on pure speculation, but it seems to me that flipping the Vref switch on the deicing panel causing a change in Vref speeds to be 20 knots higher. Is reflection on the sensitivity of the wing to any aerodynamic degradation. I would have expected ~10 kts maximum or maybe a 2 position 10 & 20 knot switch to select depending on the severity of any icing. The pilots would not have so surprised by the stick shaker and pusher occuring so far above their expected approach speeds. Why did he pull back. That's a natural reaction if you revert to lizard brain startled and scare responses that must be "trained out" of pilots. That's why 20 kts seems a bit much to me as it was completely unexpected. Your assessment may be otherwise. Obviously this guy didn't have an acceptable training track record and I'm not attempting to excuse his response. Better training may not have helped him. But the copilot didn't seem to have recognized the significance of flipping that switch either. Expecting -115 knots, and getting a stickshaker at ~135 kts. Is quite a significant difference. Do you know if they have modified or provided an associated visual alert to warn pilots to expect something unusual in the Q400? Just curious. My Dad also flew Navajos, F-27s and Metroliners with Air Oregon before it was bought by Horizon. I got to ride cockpit jump seat with him on his final 2 forced retirement flights at age 60 from SEA to PDX to MFR. it was ridiculous to force his retirement at such a young age. I'm glad that has been changed. I got a lot of great experience by flying aeromedical evacuation flights (as an unofficial "autopilot" on VFR flights) with him on many different airplanes from a Cessna 185, Cherokee 6, Aztecs, and my favorite. A Beech D-18 "Twin Beech" that now hangs from the ceiling in the Seattle Museum of Flight. This was after his military retirement and before he was one of first pilots in the start up airline, Air Oregon. My Dad was a Retired Air Force Pilot that had 10,000+ hours. Starting after 2 years as a F/P-80 mechanic. He was offered an Aviation Cadet Program at an OCS flight training program with no college degree because of the Korean Conflict. The school was a civilian military contract school in Moultrie GA, owned by Bevo Howard. A very interesting and well known air show pilot from the post-War era. So, my Dad's First airplane flight and First primary flight training lesson was in an WWII vintage AT-6 Texan. With a 600 HP P&W R-1340 engine. Today, a lot of people say that the AT-6 is one of the more difficult tail draggers to fly. You need a strong Right leg with muscle endurance. Let alone get your 1st flight and lesson in. That lasted about 2 years until accidents and high washout rates stopped that program. And the Korean Conflict was over. Dad went on to fly the 10-engine B-36 and 8-engine B-52. The Twin low powered Alison J-71 jet engined single pilot EB-66 (the"BAT-21" movie airplane) in the Vietnam Conflict and the T-39 Sabreliner small executive transport aircraft. He would often kid around, using his serious Military Officer face, with the new young First Officers by asking them how much 10-engine time they had logged. Before he'd break into a big smile and laugh to put them at ease. BTW he never got a college degree after working on it for many years until was 40 years old as, to make Full Colonel, it was required. He was very well liked and respected in the military and at the airlines. One thing I remember from his retirement flights was a very young FO whose starting salary in 1991 was ~$15k/ year or maybe a bit less. So ~$1k/ month take home pay. That meant you could have no kids or a wife that didn't work. Had to drive/share a very used old car, ride a bike or take the bus, and probably share an apartment with several other FO pilots. As a retired MD anesthesiologist, after the debacle of the last 23+months forced on pilots, illegally, mostly by Western governments and corporations, of the CDC backed "safe and effective" IM poisons...oops... I mean injections to stop from getting and spreading the CV infection. Plus the BS decarbonization agenda. I fear for the future of common travel by the average Citizen on Large and Regional airliners. I read in two, not necessarily reliable (but what is these days) comments, on good aviation websites that SWA would not put 2 pilots who where either vexed or both recently vexed on the same flight crew? Does anyone have any idea if that's a BS rumor or is there some kernel of truth to it?

[@StevePemberton2]

Looking at the Marchetti it somewhat reminds me visually of a T-37. A theory that has been proposed about the Colgan pilot pulling back on the yoke is that he may have thought that he had tail icing. Not that the plane exhibited evidence of this, but apparently NASA had put out a paper on this and said that pulling up would be the best action. He may have had the concept introduced to him in some recent training, so the thought was planted in the back of his mind. Although the Q400 was apparently not subject to tail icing, but the Saab 340 that the pilot had come from recently apparently was. So the theory is that he mistakenly jumped to the conclusion that this was tail icing, since he was not expecting stick shaker at that speed. Only thing is tail icing would not cause stick shaker, but again he was clearly confused, but it would be an explanation why he did the opposite of what would be expected.

[@eiosti]

Here I thought I was going to finish reading your comment, but it just kept going! 😅 What seemed to be a story turned into technical talk I don't understand

[@Michael-zf1ko]

I'm glad you are addressing the 1500 rule. It's such a bizarre legacy. The FAA should've been more focused on the airlines not giving their pilots a bed to sleep in. I am also amazed that airlines aren't up in arms about the rule at this point since they can't find pilots anymore. Also, 250 sounds way more nice. I would be halfway to being an airline pilot right now if I lived in Europe. But, here in the US, the hour requirements feels like a giant wall. I would have to subject myself to an instructor or similar position with poor pay for quite a while before I am allowed to touch the airlines.

[@rjfaber1991]

So could you not get a job with a European airline for a while before you reach 1500? Or are the visa requirements enough of an obstacle to not make that worth it? There's probably some good reason, but the first thing I thought of when Petter mentioned the different requirements, and knowing that pilot shortages are a thing in Europe as well, was that that would be a good way for US pilots to make a living while getting up to the required number of hours in their native country.

[@topethermohenes7658]

It's 250 hrs in many many countries in the world too

[@teker5988]

It is easy to blame bureaucrats but those who really benefit are existing pilots as the 1,500 rule makes a barrier to entry for competing pilots and likely increases salaries. It is not surprising that the Air Line Pilots Association is one of the biggest supporters. This is pretty common across all sorts of industries where existing members implement “safety” rules and training requirements to protect their position. The clueless bureaucrat is an easy target but unlikely to be the real cause.

[@paulmartin2166]

I don’t understand how the industry can even function without providing sleeping quarters for the pilots, it just doesn’t add up.

[@EdOeuna]

What sort of flying is required to gain those 1500 hours? I don’t think that 1500 hours of circuits and blue sky flying will prepare you in any way to become an airline pilot.

[@SraTacoMal]

The wife of the guy in the house who died wrote a memoir named, IIRC, "One On The Ground". It's a good read.

[@David-ud9ju]

Making money out of tragedy - a favourite past time of a captalist society. At least there was a silver lining to her husband's death.

[@NewscasterNews4]

@@David-ud9ju so you’re saying you want her to suffer and be broke?

[@Papershields001]

Quick note that I’m sure has been pointed out already: in the first infographic the first officer’s hometown is listed as “Seattle, Washington DC” that’s probably a typo because Seattle is in the state of Washington and is completely separate from Washington DC.