Motion Inputs

[@Frozen_Sherbet]

I'm surprised you didn't brought up SF4 on the 3DS. You could access motion inputs from the touch pad so it eliminated the difficulty of inputs. However since they didn't re-balance the game around this charge characters became insanely good.

[@CrossfacePanda]

CvS2EO was similar, where you could do instant Specials and Supers with the right analogue stick by simply pushing a direction, which gave you instant SBs and SPDs. I’m actually not against stuff like this as alt controls, as long as they aren’t usable in online ranked modes (or at least get their own ranked ladder), as it gives beginners and casual players easy access to do cool looking stuff; 12 year old me loved being able to do all the Supers on command in CvS2. I’m not even against games designed around easy inputs, like Smash. However, I absolutely think motion inputs have a lot more upsides than downsides, and are an integral component for making the types of fighting games that a lot of us love. But I would still love to see more new fighting games take a shot at forming and balancing their games around simple inputs from the ground up, be they single button stuff or something else. I think we need all kinds of fighting games 🙌

[@Indignation6]

bro having guile walk up dp is still fucking insane to me

[@clarambrosia9834]

Are you really surprised he didn’t mention sf4 on the 3ds

[@Indignation6]

@@mattmahoney4601 most games have a built in system that rejects double inputs of walking forward while holding back. It's not normal and if it was, everyone would use a hitbox controller. Just too strong

[@noticeme6412]

Guile became god tier

[@SAClassHunterZero]

The biggest mindfuck had to be Ryu's appearance in Smash 4. The fact that his moveset remained so faithful on an entirely different system, and the fact that you could do EITHER/OR Button presses vs. Motion inputs, thus making everyone happy (mostly, except the motion inputs had higher damage and thus a bias for them), should have been far more emphasized as a victory for the genre but I feel like it kinda went under the radar.

[@Sammysapphira]

It's not fine for both. It's inherently unfair for classic input style.

[@-hazardzone-7641]

Smash bros is the perfect example as to how these should be balanced, since smash is such a casual game, you need to have does casual movesets that that came has, basic easy one button motions, all balanced by frame data, but to make them balanced outside of frame data, they need to be either not super impactful or if they are, they have like 100 frames of start up, such as warlock punch. With Ryu, Ken, and Terry, they make everyone able to do the inputs, but don't give them the same advantages such as invincibility or as much power, the really basic stuff everyone can do, but if you want to be better, you have to learn, which is something all games have in common. Ryu does have half circle Red Hadouken locked behind an input too, but that is incredibly strong against zoners, going through most small projectiles and clashing with big ones. And then Terrys Go sauce is the prime example of barrier to entry, because you can't use two moves if you can't do the motion, but at the same time, if it was easy, then the satisfaction and power would have to be taken away, making it useless

[@drowsemary]

its inherently different due to the medium of the platform fighter vs traditional fighter genre. so much of what leon talks about in this video is completely thrown out the window. motion inputs in smash are basically just a novelty

[@-cactus.raven-]

@@Sammysapphirayou did read what game they were talking about right? Did you just see button special move and immediately want to rant abt sf6?

[@vitor262]

​@@Sammysapphirabut the motion input versions are stronger

[@MrDrumStikz]

Minor correction: Fatal Fury was actually developed before the release of SFII, so SNK's fighting game development runs alongside Capcom, rather than stemming from it. SNK borrowed special moves from SF1, Capcom borrowed Super moves from Art of Fighting. Edit: mixed up names like an idiot

[@coolswag4612]

Literally the team in capcom who made sf2 made went to snk so they did stem off a bit

[@vOddy75]

People who worked on SF1 worked on Fatal Fury, and Fatal Fury came out very soon after Street Fighter 2. They were being developed at the same time. Street Fighter II and Fatal Fury were convergent evolution, both refinements of SF1.

[@GarredHATES]

So Shinku Hadoken is just a discount Haoh shoko ken then

[@Kaimax61]

@@GarredHATES I wouldn't say discount, since its a "if Ryo can do bigger fireballs, then Why not Ryu?" Discount Haoh shoko ken is Dan.

[@ikagura]

Fatal Fury is still inspired by Street Fighter. *

[@Street-Pigeons]

This video essay when Your Only Move Is Hustle walks in

[@Soquettic]

Someone should really make a video essay on this game

[@MythicMachina]

And it's a good answer! We're starting to see more unique takes on fighting games, but there still so much room to grow!

[@Yemmer]

I can speak a little to the point you made on people with impaired motor function. I have some decreased function in my arms and hands, not a ton, honestly in my day to day I completely forget about it, but sometimes when I play fighting games I see moves like 360s and Demons (and charges to a lesser degree) and I have to just accept that those moves are things i CANNOT do because my hands just arent fast enough, it is a major reason why I enjoy games like DBFZ and SCVI so much, because the barrier for entry is so low, i can do all the moves even at the beginning, it's also why I'm really excited for DNFDuel. I understand that a lot of people really enjoy motion inputs so I dont blame them for being upset when they go away, but personally I find myself really enjoying it when i can actually access my entire movelist where I would otherwise have had to write off half of it because of my disability. Update: I've been playing Zangief in SF6, I fucking love SPDs, but I think SF6 has a super forgiving input buffer so I'm not sure if I'll be able to do them reliably in other games.

[@mrhbomb]

Have you ever tried using a hitbox style controller? It may help you with some inputs since all of the directions are mapped to specific buttons you can have all your fingers on at once, rather than a D-pad that you have to roll your thumb over or a stick that takes full arm movement. Could be worth looking into if that's something that might open up whole characters for you.

[@TVindustries5000]

newer fighters do SPDs differently. i think the way zangeif's works is like a half circle and then up i think? like u dont have to hit up+left/right for it to come out, simplified input.

[@abysswalker1282]

Man, i know the feel. I also suffer from a severe impaired motor fuction that limits a lot the speed and reflexes of my fingers, which makes games like Tekken and SF an almost no go (i always end up doing messy button mashing actions to somehow do something when i try to play those games). However my case is seemingly so severe that even supposedly easier FGs like DBFZ have me resort to button mashing bevause nothing seems to work :(

[@Jarekthegamingdragon]

While motion inputs definitely contribute to a new player struggling, I honestly think every thing being on the dpad/stick is a much bigger issue. In nearly every other genre, the dpad/stick is reserved for movement and that's it. Even something as simple as block not getting its own button can be a really bad thing for a newer player. This is one of the biggest reasons smash exploded in popularity. Hell, I've had ultimate players tell me they don't want to go back to melee purely because they can't turn off tap jump. As a PM player, I get it. Tap jump is annoying and the ability to rebind your controls is huge for learning a new game.

[@GamerTowerDX]

Shoutouts to Fantasy Strike for the jump button,all hail the jump button.

[@krizzz7940]

A block button in traditional 2d fighters is a tricky situation tho, it makes defence A LOT different cause you don't need to care about Left/Right mixups Games like Mortal kombat, Granblue fantasy versus, and the newer title DNF duel all have block buttons, sidenote tho... I think the main reason smash became so big is cause "my favourite video game character fighting versus my friends favourite character NICE"

[@xavibun]

I play Rivals and main Absa, she has a tech that lets her do a rising double jump with an aerial, it would be almost impossible for me to do if I couldn't rebind my bumper to attack.

[@NSFSponsor]

@@krizzz7940 Facts, becuase no other platform fighter or game with a block button is as successful as smash. The roster sells Smash, that's it.

[@NSFSponsor]

Out of the top 5 best selling FG series, 3 of them don't have a block button. Holding back to block is already intuitive.

[@sturmwolken21736]

Honestly I really like motion inputs for the sole reason that I find them to be very satisfying to do. I like when I zig-zag and the big punch do. It gives my monkey brain seritonin that other games don't give me.

[@kevingriffith6011]

I'm completely in agreement. I don't even *play* the character, but doing SF5 Kage's DP -> Teleport -> DP -> Teleport -> CA just fills my brain with the happy chemicals.

[@milesprower6110]

yeah, if anyone were able to it whenever they want it without any punishment, because it's game of 2 (or more), then it wouldn't be that special the game and, just to random mash when it feels like it good there's already games that does that for people who are not into it, so why to change the rest of games that are not?

[@Colecionador7162]

YES, that's probably one of the reasons I like KOF so much, the inputs are more complicated than other FGs, but it's so satisfying when you pull out that I don't even care, when you do an TOD combo on an online match it's the best felling ever

[@bunnybreaker]

UMVC3 Viper combos and just flying around the screen is my happy place.

[@MrEpicRabbit]

Exactly, doing a half-circle back>forward and hitting a Potemkin buster in Guilty Gear makes the happy chemicals happen

[@hajhawa]

As a hobbyist fg dev, something that wasn't emphasized enough is that motions allow for more moves without adding buttons. A stick has six or eight buttons while a controller only has four face buttons (many players find using both back and face buttons for basically the same thing wierd) and those run out very quickly. Even simple things like a sweep in sf is technically a motion input. Often motions also help players remember moves. If a character has 10 moves all tied to their own buttons (even if you could have that mapped to a controller). It would be very hard to remember which button mapped to which move. A shoriyuken in sf uses any of the punch buttons, so the player has to remember the motion which is the same for similar moves in many games and to use a punch button, which can be deduced from the animation.

[@Kraden555]

Bumpers/triggers+face button works for FFXIV, why wouldn't it work for fighting games?

[@AcroxShadow]

1 direction + 1 button can give up to 9 different inputs by itself. Go up to 4 buttons and that's up to 36 moves. Add 2 button combinations, take out the ones awkward to do on gamepads (top + bottom face buttons and left + right face buttons) and that's 72. Take out the up/up-left/up-right direction ones if that becomes weird with jumping and you're still left with 48 different inputs a character can do from a neutral standing position. I don't think multi-direction motions are that influential in being able to give characters more moves.

[@hajhawa]

@@Kraden555 First of all, it does. There are games that do that, even big ones like granblue fantasy versus has direction+button special shortcuts. This does however have a few weirder issues. Up buttons are a bit whacky as that is how you jump (tekken still does those, you have a lot of jumping lag in tekken). Forward and back buttons are not born equal as one is a lot easier to do out of a block. This difference means that if every character has only directionals, every character would have the same number of 'good out of block buttons', which is probably something you don't want from a design perspective as that would make the cast more monotone. If there is a single character with a lot of options to get out of block, they are special. If everyone can do it, they aren't. I'd also wager to guess you aren't for giving a character multiple bad options for their back+button options.

[@hajhawa]

​@@AcroxShadow Tekken basically does this. Most characters don't have multi directionals, just strings or individual direction+button or button combo. One of my points is that it's a lot harder to remember if a move is back+button or down+back+button than motions in the general case. I'd also raise that guile's playstyle basically completely emerges from his charge moves. The man's gotta hold down back, ask any guile player if his motions are influencal and you'll get laughed at. Different strokes for different folks. For what it's worth, I think anything requiring four or more directions shouldn't exist (quarters usually don't require the middle step, 360 usually only needs cardinals).

[@AlphaSquadZero]

I don't think motion inputs are any easier to memorize than just button combinations. Pressing a singular direction and one of the face buttons provide plenty number of combinations, nevertheless two button combinations.

[@Dahras1]

I think the key point is "New fighting games should experiment with simple inputs." That doesn't mean established franchises like SF, KoF, or GG need new entries with simple inputs. It means that the space of simple input fighters hasn't been explored enough to really know what the possibilities are. That's especially true because most simple input fighting games either a) are too focused on being simple from top to bottom or b) don't really commit to simple inputs. I like Fantasy Strike well enough, but that game didn't just simplify special inputs, it also simplified movement, combos, the health system, the super system, etc. Meanwhile, Granblue pretends that it has simple inputs for beginners. But just like Autocombos in DBZF, Granblue's simple inputs are a beginner trap and at some point every player needs to learn the motion inputs. We have yet to see a wide spectrum of fighting games attempt simple inputs and those that have tried are fighting against the fact that the dedicated audience of players that have stuck with the genre have to, by definition, like motion inputs. But I think there's a lot of possible upside if more games jump into the breach and try out solutions to simple inputs' problems.

[@keltzar1]

The closest thing I can think of to a game that's going for simple inputs but isn't super simplified overall is Power Rangers: Battle for the Grid. That game has simple inputs, and a relatively small number of specials per character, but it's a tag team game, so you've got 3 characters' moves that you're juggling between on the fly.

[@SinRuin]

@@keltzar1 skullgirls inputs are pretty simple

[@thecountercounter9127]

@Sasha Lemay I feel as though while platform fighters like smash, rivals, etc. Etc. Are seperate things from one another and while having the same concept vary very differently from one another, I DO believe that there can potentially be something to look at within them when it comes to input controls while keeping a deeper complexity within the game. Looking at our old friend melee, it's easy to see how simple the application of it's controls are. Someone can toss up any character they want and there is no real barrier such as 360s that would stop one from being able to play the character (keyword: playing the character. Not playing the character EFFECTIVELY). of course, melee has its own menagerie of problems, from at minimum half the cast basically being locked out of competitive play due to viability, and having so much intense hand-cracking, borderline NECESSARY tech that the skill floor alone to start playing even remotely decently is as high as eggman is pissing on the moon. I believe there IS potential for a traditional fighting game to wield that same sort of control scheme while making it interesting for long-lasting and new players alike without just making It smash bros melee: traditional fighter version. How, though? I dunno I'm not a game designer

[@hogindoz]

@@SinRuin Skull girls inputs are the same as other fighters though. Quarters-circles, Dps, Charge moves, 360s. Its not as crazy as KoF inputs, but not really simple.

[@vaiyt]

Motion inputs themselves haven't been explored fully. Primal Rage has a variation where the game only cares *if the button is being pressed when the motion finishes*, which means you can execute a move by holding a button then executing a motion, or have it come out even if you press the button too early by holding it. It makes inputs much more lenient while still not making them instant, and opens tons of possibilities for combos.

[@brhmawantstogame]

A very interesting watch Post the release of Street Fighter 6 and its addition of modern controls.

[@jackg6887]

One thing I don't think is brought up for the mid - high level is how motion inputs allow you to read your opponent. If everything is one button for example you can stand still and have full access to your moveset. Who fucking knows what you're gonna do but with inputs you know, oh ken is down backing its less likely for him to super through fireball. Oh the grappler is whiffing buttons he can be hiding 360 motions in those attack frames to bait a whiff punish. Its mostly thought of with charge characters but motions also give away tells which is something else worth keeping.

[@AlphaSquadZero]

I still feel single input commands can have plenty of readability, you just need a cancelable wind-up animation.

[@jackg6887]

​@@AlphaSquadZero How many frames? cancelable into what? Cos with motion inputs you can fient inputs while remaining pretty much 100% actionable. If you need to cancel start up frames thats just an objective downgrade and able to be counter hit before you can cancel.

[@TheFyrePhoenix]

@@jackg6887 Despite being a flawed title (with... many flaws.) I feel as though the game *For Honor* is an example of what AlphaSquadZero is talking about - about how single input commands can have readability while also being feintable yet still having downsides that need to be taken into account situationally. With that said, I've pretty much stopped playing any fighting game including For Honor and never really played it competitively, so my knowledge of game mechanics may be lacking and/or completely false :\

[@beansfebreeze]

As a person that plays both regular fgc and smash, I sort of disagree with single button attacks being absolutely unpredictable. 99% of smash characters don't use motions but that doesn't make their options any less predictable. If I'm standing still and a character is jumping in at me there's a good chance they'll go for an option that's relatively safe on shield because of frame data or has a property that makes it safe regardless. Depending on the character's kit, that tells me only blah% of their moves are likely to come out and allows me to plan accordingly with a good read. Having full access to your kit doesn't mean the entire kit can/will come out

[@jackg6887]

​@@beansfebreeze I never said totally unpredictable just alot less predictable. You can always use game knowledge to predict what someone might do but thats different to seeing something on screen and knowing what exact options are available and what isn't.

[@tinglejingle9147]

Smash’s popularity (aside from brand recognition and more polish compared to other PF) can partially be attributed to its near universal input system. Jabs are always fast, light attacks. Smashes are slow, chargeable heavy attacks. Up special is always a recovery move. The other Specials, while very different between each character, are easy to figure out because it’s all the same inputs. You can pick up an play most of the roster without needing to look at a move list. It’s not really the motion inputs that people can’t wrap their heads around , it’s that they change for every character. If fighting games just used quarter circles followed by a different button for everting, I feel like people would be more willing to learn the one input.

[@plotylty]

And people complained about the fighting game chars in smash for having inputs.

[@jamilhenderson3600]

thats actually not true at all for how smash works. Ever since the beginning jabs, tilts, and smashes speeds and properties are different between characters. For the longest time Ganons Up smash was his fastest move. Fox's Up smash since 64 has been one of the characters fastest moves. While samus her jab and Up smash are really slow.

[@SomeDude881]

@@jamilhenderson3600 when looking at the frame data, that is true. But I think you're neglecting how general / universal the controls are, making picking up a different character be intuitive. Fox's up smash can be assumed to be a KO option that hits above him. Just like Ganon, Link, etc. Only a few characters will break the trend, but it can be understood by a quick test without needing to consult a command list.

[@stylesheetra9411]

Remember that sf2 was akin to Mario in popularity But the Nintendo released more Mario games which were better while capcom didnt even try to evolve their game

[@tinglejingle9147]

@@stylesheetra9411 let’s also not forget that while Mario and Nintendo in general left the arcades by the time the SNES launched, Fighting Games where tethered to the arcade right up until they all started going out of business. When online play became good enough for Fighting Games to make a return they all came back with the same controls based around an arcade stick. We still have this problem today where people are most likely to get started on pad and stop playing if their game of choice feels unresponsive

[@Tr1zzle]

This was great work Leon. You didn't come off as a legacy elitist or a "babies first" FG player. You explained why motion inputs were great at its conception while also giving a good reason why maybe they shouldn't be mandatory for every FG and MIGHT help with player retention. This is exactly why I think Project L is going with the simple input method.

[@mattdavisgames]

Great video with a nice balanced perspective, as usual! 15:03 to 15:22 feels like an important takeaway. Compared to other games, fighting games kinda require you to get your hands dirty and practice before you can have much/any fun (i.e. get to some interesting situations). In every competitive game, at some point you'll have to put in some serious practice to keep improving, but usually by that point you're pretty invested. When you pick up a fighting game for the first time, you probably only have enough investment to push through if you've been watching other people play for a while.

[@super2thesam]

I dig the point at the end that they make about how players who play traditional fighters need to work through restrictions in order to access tools they’ve already conceptualized the use of. It legitimately makes me sad every time I try and get into a fighter only to find that I, indeed, still mechanically suck at fighters. It’s like being a monster at Rock Paper Scissors but your hands just literally sometimes will just put out random (non-RPS) shapes instead of Rock.

[@dj_koen1265]

I think the biggest issue is how tight executions are and how combos are difficult to do even if you know(remembered) the moves I would suspect that the LoL fighter for example will have significantly more accessibility because the motion inputs do throw people off But it suspect the game will still have a lot of a barrier to entry because fighting games are usually heavily based around combos or knowing how to sequence moves together And how combo(knowledge) reliant a game is on a fundamental playing level is also a real push back to players feeling like they are able to play the game And im not sure how you would solve that A fighting game should be satisfying to play even without combos and smash has done a good job on that in a lot of ways The restricted movement in fighting games is also a significant component in that aspect and that is also an aspect where smash is clearly much more satisfying to play when i taught someone how to play smash without any prior experience that was already incredibly difficult a learning experience And smash doesn’t have any restricted movement or motions When i taught that same person a year later how to play gg accent core he didn’t even bother learning the motions but that didn’t really throw him off playing as he was able to do some calculated mashing to get the moves he wanted and he did end up learning a couple of basic motions like item toss that he was able to execute reliably and he never complained about motion inputs being too hard only that he didn’t want to bother to learn them Many times he actually preferred gear over smash because in gear he stood more of a chance (because i was good at smash) In the end the takeaway was that players like to win and they dont like to be outmatched The game mechanics dont matter too much even when they are awfully tight like in accent core

[@TakaComics]

For me it was the rabbit hole of one character that got me hooked. I had forgotten all about Tekken after T4, but picking up T7 and playing the hell out of it led me to being crazy into the game again. And Ling’s amount of wild movement and deep mechanics and tech traps got me hooked even more. I was playing a standard basic boring stance Ling, and then someone said “A fast ff3 gives you a pickup there.” And that’s when everything got crazier. Now I’m doing her cancels, her infinites, her “electric,” all which I never knew existed in the game, and changed how I play and think about the game. That’s why I love deep, complex fighters. There’s always something to learn, and when you get with a group of people who are supportive and not the toxic side of the FGC, it becomes downright beautiful. Someone posts a video and everyone asks “HOW?! I need the inputs!”

[@landoncore92]

Dear Leon: as someone else who is also in the falling interest phase, I loved what you had to say. I think it's just so normal in FGC culture to just play an endless amount of fighting games but it's normal and healthy to get outside of those boundaries. A consequence of that is, yes, you might just go back to getting your ass beat all the time, but I'm having more fun with fighting games these days as a part of what I play, not all of it. The time investment to learn new characters and systems and combos is still kinda high for me so it's nice to play something that I'm immediately capable at instead.

[@junior1388666]

I really like learning new characters, and I always try to learn them all if I really like the game. Only characters I can't play are mashing/piano input characters. I.e. Honda, blanka, chun-li. But even though I can't do that kind of input, I wouldn't want it to be removed from fighting games. 1. It's really impressive to me when I watch someone doing what I can't 2. It's one more way for players to express themselves 3. Different kinds of inputs are good for differentiate characters from one another and I think devs should create even more inputs

[@chinesemassproduction]

Quit fighting games. Seriously, just quit already.

[@landoncore92]

@@chinesemassproduction no ur toxic and I could whoop dat booty in Tekken boi get at me. Same steam username homie let's do it!

[@coreyrachar9694]

@@junior1388666 this is something i've invested a lot time into thinking about. While I agree that it's impressive to see really cool tech performed flawlessly and creates hype situations, it also honestly doesn't change much to have crazy hard inputs because at the highest level everyone is gonna be able to execute pretty well anyways. It only really makes it a larger barrier to entry for new players. Since fighting games are an interactive medium between 2 people (unlike something like skateboarding where your 'tech' or 'inputs' are the entire sport) it's the interactions that are what's interesting. If you want more hype you need to increase interactions in a way that requires players to react quickly and precisely. Mechanics like the parry from 3rd strike will lead to moments like the Daigo parry, not overly convoluted inputs. Conversely, some of the hypest fgc moments are when two players do nothing, or one player throws another 5 times in a row. This is exciting not because of technical prowess but again, because of interaction. Maybe one player is able to dash "in a pro players face" repeatedly because he's earned the right. That's much hyper than someone landing a triple 360 double shoryuken input any day. I think in the end there is a place for both kinds of games... Ones with easy inputs and crazy technical ones are both appealing in their own ways. Luckily for us there are plenty of each out there to choose from.

[@junior1388666]

@@coreyrachar9694 I think sf4 has the perfect balance. It had 1 frame links but they weren't required to play the game and just gave you a little more damage. Good example of easy to play hard to master.

[@griffendesai2039]

I think another important part of this is what motion inputs end up being on different controllers. I’ve heard differing opinions on this but I think using motion inputs on a normal game pad is a fucking nightmare. I played mortal Kombat on a pad for like 4 years, never wanting to pick up other fighting games because doing motion inputs on pad hurt my left thumb so bad. I picked up a fighting stick and it changed everything, motion inputs became much more manageable/intuitive.

[@pauldaulby260]

This is an extremely underrepresented part of it. Lots of very invested players have no idea that it’s much less nice to do on the control scheme they don’t use. And lots of new players can’t comprehend the idea of them “feeling nice” because it just doesn’t on pad. I don’t like locking enjoyable inputs behind buying an additional controller.

[@TomDwarfThrower]

@@pauldaulby260 I play on keyboard (And Hitbox, if I had one) BECAUSE of this. I couldn't consistently do charge and Z motions on pad, and I'm not going to buy a stick.

[@android19willpwn]

@@TomDwarfThrower especially true of double-tap inputs. People who like those on a controller are fucking aliens, but on keyboard they're fine.

[@Maggotbone]

I only played UMvC3 on the analog stick precisely for this reason. I didn't want to dig my thumb into the corner of the PS3 dpad. Lots of games released since then have felt atrocious on analog, where the slightest deviation from a perfect horizontal line will make characters jump or crouch incessantly. I switched to dpad for DBFZ because of this (and also the PC port doesn't detect my stick for some reason)

[@Maggotbone]

@@android19willpwn do you struggle with double tap inputs on a dpad? I hate them on stick! Double downs are the bane of me. DBFZ is the only ArcSys game where I could consistently instant air dash _because_ I played on dpad. The dash button in Strive is a godsend

[@peanutinc.7670]

I'll admit, even though I basically never play fighting games anymore, this is a problem that I have thought about a lot. Introducing any kind of complex mechanic into a game erects another barrier to entry. This isn't bad by itself, but the more complex something is, the more niche your game will become. Fighting games have, for the longest time, been incredible niche. Of course, everyone can lay a beatdown on their friend, or some CPU in the campaign mode, but anything other than that is difficult to even comprehend for new players. The worst part is that, in my eyes at least, there's not really any way out of this problem. By taking away what makes fighting games niche, you'd ruin it for everyone in that niche, sacrificing their enjoyment for greater appeal. A game with difficult motion inputs will be a "sweat game" and one without motion inputs will be a "scrub game." There's probably always going to be a divide here, no matter what you do.

[@Breeze06]

I never understood how people thought motion inputs were difficult or intimidating. It literally took me 2 minutes to teach my 8 year old cousin how to flash kick. My cousin isn't talented, and I'm not particularly good at teaching either. My cousin was just willing to learn, so he asked me. In my experience, new players just put too much pressure on themselves and refuse to ask for help. Edit: I'm sorry for being insensitive.

[@peanutinc.7670]

@@Breeze06 Not everyone has someone to teach them, and it doesn't come as a given to go to a forum or a reddit for newcomers, either. Also, a child being able to do something does not mean that an adult should also be able to do it. There are children out there who are much better at things than most adults, like drawing or playing music, simply because they think about things differently than adults do. Children are also usually quick to learn new concepts if they're in safe, comfortable enviroments. If you've barely ever touched a controller or an arcade cabinet, the idea of a motion input might be so foreign to you that it could take a long time for it to feel comfortable. And if you don't feel comfortable playing a game, you're never going to play it for long enough for you to want to experience it in full.

[@Stroggoii]

Exclusivity is good.

[@mrrdirty6198]

@@Breeze06 What's so hard to understand? I remember looking at that "Z" motion for the first time and being baffled. Also, why is it that whenever someone talks about having a tough time with motions someone brings up the easy ones? Are people complaining about not being able to flash kick? No? Just because some of them are easy doesn't mean they all are.

[@Breeze06]

@@mrrdirty6198 I've heard people complain about the hadouken motion before.

[@RaveDX]

I don't think the fgc will ever be happy with ditching inputs tbh. They're just too satisfying. I'm glad you discussed both positives and negatives of the mechanic though.

[@MythicMachina]

I feel like games with Simple Inputs and games with Motion Inputs can still exist side by side in their own markets. A lot of people act like Motion Inputs will die if Simple Inputs exist. They won't. People like them too much for them to die.

[@MogFlintlock]

I think that the use of motion inputs as a method of balance is also part of the reason why fighting games tend to feel radically different (and frequently incredibly unfair) at lower levels of play. I think it'd be appropriate to say that, frequently, the risk-reward of certain attacks assume your opponent is able to access their counter moves with a certain level of reliability and agility. Given Shoryukens vs Jump-Ins, per the video, a powerful jump-in option might be a risky but rewarding option at mid-high levels of play, since if the opponent calls you out, you eat a nasty punish, but at lower levels, when the average player might need 5 additional frames in order to perform the same input, that jump-in (which was probably up/forward+one attack button) goes from 'high risk high reward' to 'oppressive'.

[@superbro6413]

Though this video focuses solely on motion inputs as a core concept, it's interesting how there wasn't a segment in this discussion delving into the many fighting games that attempt to find a solution to this "motion input conundrum" -Guilty Gear Xrd / Blazblue's "stylish" mode -GBVS having both 1 button shortcuts _and_ motions -Games like Fantasy Strike (or Power Rangers I think) that have no or little motions -MK as a whole (though it was mentioned briefly) Clearly FG developers are actively thinking about things like this as they produce these games, and I feel like it's a bit of a missed opportunity to not take a close inspection on what works and what didn't with each attempt made over the years Your video was excellent regardless though Look forward to the next one Cheers

[@nedinnis6752]

I also like the systems that analyze if you looked like you were trying to input a motion, making more difficult motions accessible to newer players while keeping the tell of "he's going for the DP". It isn't perfect since you still have accidental inputs, but it is a better solution to me than not having motion inputs at all.

[@jmanwild87]

I wouldn't consider a stylish or assist mode a solution since they limit what you can do and make you very easy to react to and you're not really controlling your character the game is. the others i agree with as while something like Power Rangers or Fantasy Strike have simplified motions i'm still able to do the stuff high level players can whereas with assist modes there are cases where i just can't

[@AshLeeTheCat]

haven't finished yet but had to say that the editing for this dudley part has me drooling, really well done

[@bageltoo]

I really like the tactile feel that motion inputs have, but if some motionless fighting games (like DNF) get more people into the genre, I think it’s a good thing.

[@HELLRAISER02]

I think a funny but crazy idea is do what street fighter 5 did, but to the extreme Have chars like ed n falke, no motion inputs Chars with MK inputs, motion, charge, pretzels, whatever, have an FG with multiple chars of every style, itd be wild but i think itd be worth trying

[@trickjump19]

@@HELLRAISER02 I imagine it would be incredibly unbalanced, but it would be fun to see as an experiment.

[@HELLRAISER02]

@Stylish DY.D. it would be wild, itd literally make every character feel unique...tho making it all work in one FG would be a nightmare

[@stylesheetra9411]

@@trickjump19 the biggest problem with FG imo. They try to cater to pros and esport from the getgo

[@robboss1311]

@@stylesheetra9411 cuz they the only ones that will play the game for more than 2 weeks

[@kylespevak6781]

10:49 This was me with fighting games as a whole at one point, but now I'm learning Street Fighter. Everything new feels uncomfortable, you just have to drill it until it's not

[@jim7raynor56]

Lethal League did a pretty good job spurring my interest for fighting games.

[@makogp747]

so the message at the end is "pls riot make project l good also release date when" god i love this video. I dont know why motion inputs intrigued my 10 year old brain back when when i first picked up street fighter. but after learning how to consistently shoryu, how to footsies amd anti air, etc, i instantly fell in love. Unlike leon i actually found myself trying every character (could be because i was a dumb kid with too much free time) but i do see the problem with its complexity. This video makes great points honestly i really like it, made me think.

[@bencegergohocz5988]

"10 year old brain" "could be because i was a dumb kid with too much free time" thease are the exact things that separate those that are fine with motion inputs and those that aren't. When i was around that age, the more time i could sink into the game, the more i liked the game. Now, i have substancially more money and less time so i have to ask the question: if i find 100 hours of gametime somehow, why would i spend it on "practicing" a few moves in a fighting game instead of...idk, playing through the whole ass Mass Effect trilogy? In basicly any other type of game, just playing the game is itself the most effective training method so you just get better while playing what you came for. MMORPGs are the other genre that has this "put in x hours to get to the actual game" mentaility but thenkfully the comunity started to shift against that bs a good while ago. The reason people are so hard to convince to give up on thease old roadblocks is the sunken cost fallacy more than anything tbh.

[@Cobalt01]

@@bencegergohocz5988 I have to disagree. Maybe I'm just faster at picking this specific thing up but I hadn't done a motion input in my life before Guilty Gear Strive and I'm finding a lot of success in it as an adult with a 9-6 job and not that much time to lab. Also, once you can do the input once or twice, just playing the game really is the best way to improve and get inputs down. Using a reversal under pressure is so much harder than doing it in the lab and imo there's not a point to labbing single inputs that much because of it

[@netrob5151]

Core-A have also mentioned in their video on motion inputs how they directly contribute to the way character is supposed to be played i.e. Guile's fireball is a lot stronger than any shoto's only when he is close enough to them because of its fast recovery. On the farther distances shotos win because they are not restricted by having to charge their fireballs and can spam them as fast as they can input them after the recovery. Plus, his invincible move requires that he sacrifices all his movement, while a standart DP requires a sacrifice of all defence but can be executed smoothly while advancing (run up DP gang unite). Great video overall, can relate to not picking or fully realising a character I've enjoyed because of their inputs. Balrog has a goddamn input salad of all the different shit; Falke is legit unfeasible to play on pad; Cody having a 5 second hold, a timing challenge and the janky-ass clusterfuck that is his pocket sand input make me tear my hair out.

[@AlphaSquadZero]

But it is possible to have this balance of fireballs without motion inputs.

[@netrob5151]

@@AlphaSquadZero Yeah, Geiger from Fantasy Strike has a cooldown on his moves that starts over when he moves forward, but I'd say charge inputs have a bit more depth to them, like holding down-back mid jump-in for example.

[@Thomazbr]

@@netrob5151 A big complaint of Fantasy Strike tho is that how "easily" figured out things are. It's a borderline binary game where everything has a clear answer and so there's not much of a point for most players to like continue grinding out the game. Once you figure out what's the "point" of each move, then there's not much left to do.

[@Stroggoii]

@@Thomazbr This was also true of Rising Thunder and I suspect it's the reason Project L went tag and DNFD is so broken. Otherwise they'd be solved too fast because of how much moves have to be nerfed to accomodate simple input. Granblue got away with neither nerfing moves nor making the game full kusoge by adding the cooldown system which is pretty spicy and adds strategy to the game play. Future developers really need to look more in this direction.

[@TheRadioSquare]

@@netrob5151 And nobody plays Fantasy Strike cause this idea of balancing moves was boring as fuck and removed a shitload of depth from the game.

[@lettucemode8643]

One other scenario I bring up in these discussions is how different motions make you change your strategy against these characters. You touched on it a little bit with the breaking charge comment. The example I like to use is how a DP character (like Sol) can block a safejump and then DP to try and get out, but a flash kick character (like Leo) can't. The main thing for me is I like it when DPs and fireballs and other special moves are strong. I would rather play the old GG instead of Granblue, for example, because of what you mentioned in this video - moves that are easier to do must necessarily be made weaker in terms of startup, invuln, and so on so they aren't the go-to option for every situation. If more difficult controls are the price I have to pay to keep strong moves, then I will gladly pay it.

[@Zelrin04]

It's amazing that you talked about how a feature that turns on a player, may turn on another, and right after you explained something that you hate, but I love. I fckn adore characters having different inputs, and messing around with new shit on the same game. I feel like, if I like the design of a character I don't play, learning them almost from scratch is where I decide if I "deserve" to play them or not. Not because I literally DON'T DESERVE to play them, but because maybe I just don't have the skill, or the mindset, or whatever. And I'll have to either stick to the other cool characters I already know, or make myself actually deserve the new cool character design through practice. One recent example I have is that I found out about FIghtcade, and started playing Samurai Shodown III from scratch, I never played a Samsho game. I love how the game nails the Samurai Duel vibe with the high damage numbers and reaching sword attacks, so I started with Ukyo, but found him difficult. So I went with an arguably easier character, Shizumaru. I did good with him, but didn't like the lack of _sword_ in my _sword fighting game_ , which made me go back to Ukyo with newfound inspiration, and I managed to make him work, although with the Bust style, not Slash, sadly. And it feels really good because now I have two characters that I know how to play. One because the entry was low, and is really fun, and the other because I fought to understand and learn. And it feels really rewarding to win with Ukyo now. I perfectly understand why you don't like it but I managed to trick myself into believing learning a new character is like a little training arc, and that makes it really fun for me.

[@jiwas4419]

I think one overlooked aspect of motion inputs is controllers, the difficulty of doing a motion input changes wildly based on what controller you're playing on. Even though I had an Xbox controller to play fighting games on, I played every fighting game except Tekken on keyboard because doing any motion input on a pad is extremely inconsistent for me. Even on keyboard there are still issues like keyboard ghosting that make DPs inconsistent, as well as the fact that some games (lookin at you SFV) locked out certain keys I wanted to bind buttons to. Once I got a controller that was all buttons almost all the issues I had with the other two ways I was playing (save minor ones like 360s being exponentially harder, but im not touching grapplers anyways lol) were eliminated, but dedicated fighting game controllers are not an option everyone wants to commit to for obvious reasons, biggest one being price.

[@Sorrelhas]

I think it's complicated to say "just take out motion inputs from fighting games", because it's something to consider from game to game Two or three MvC-like games diminished the presence of, or outright removed the presence of motion inputs in their games, but that's because an invincible DP is the least of your worries in that kind of game If a game like Street Fighter or Guilty Gear removed motion inputs it would probably lead to either an unbalanced mess or a toothless game, completely uninteresting at any level but maybe the highest competitive levels (just look at Fantasy Strike and more recently DNF) I don't have the answer to this conundrum, and I feel like no one else has

[@The_Meev]

I think the only compromise I can really think of is making all inputs quarter circles (maybe an occasional down down motion) and maybe having one or two special moves not require motions. It's close to what Persona 4 Arena does (though it does have one charge character and two characters with one charge move, but close enough) and it's still about on par with Guilty Gear Xrd with the amount of mechanical complexity and character variety despite having much simpler inputs.

[@absoul112]

I question putting DNF in the same boat as Fantasy Strike, mostly because it's not out yet.

[@arachnofiend2859]

@@The_Meev Persona 4 Arena is complex because every character is Zato so there's a lot more to figure out beyond basic gameplans.

[@The_Meev]

@@arachnofiend2859 It's not even that, because there are a lot of characters that don't even use Persona displacement at all either because they don't need to or they just literally can't do it. The characters just have a lot of strong tools at their disposal and gameplans that greatly differ from each other.

[@Sorrelhas]

@@absoul112 Fair enough ArcSys is not beyond making big overhauls

[@doggo8259]

Personally when it comes to motion inputs, I like Smash Bros Ultimate and GrandBlue's take on them where they are optional, but doing them rewards you with higher damage, faster cooldowns, or in the case of Terry, infinite super at high percentage. I do think it's possible to have the complexity and skill that motion inputs deliver while also making the game more accessible for the entry level player, it's a hard balance for sure, but I do want to see more fighting games do what Smash and GrandBlue did as it's an interesting take that I'd like to see expanded and experimented on.

[@cerdi_99]

DNF duel kinda does that: every special is a direction + special button and uses a resource (mana like in rpg games). Usually it takes a while for it to begin regenerating but if u do the motion input it begins almost immediately

[@aidanhayes3571]

Sir, granblue is literally the prime example of the passive aggressive strong arming that I hate that the FGC promotes. It claims to have simple inputs, but it's a farce. Instead of something actually analogous to how motion inputs affect the move's balance (like increased startup), it takes the nuclear option makes the simple versions so much worse that players get strongarmed into doing the motion inputs at anything below bottom level play. This often entails shelling out a bunch of cash for an arcade stick because the traditional motion inputs weren't designed for a standard controller and are awful to do on such. Buying a special controller should only ever be a factor at high level play.

[@Kabal39]

@@aidanhayes3571ikr this guy is delusional

[@mrblazeapound7856]

​@@aidanhayes3571Anyone playing a fighting game that buys an arcade stick is someone who's already deep in either the FGC or whatever fighting game they are playing. Tons of players use a standard controller (like an Xbox or Playstation controller) to do traditional motion inputs, as it's actually a lot easier than on an arcade stick (not to mention having button macros in the form of bumpers and triggers). So, no, it doesn't entail spending a bunch of money just as a means of playing and isn't a factor at any level of play but the highest.

[@Foreversouth0]

Your crimes can be many but none will be more horrific than playing League

[@Altasetraa]

Thanks for the video! As someome with chronic hand pain that completely locks me out of fighting games, its good to see an opinion more nuanced than 'get good'

[@V.G.Boy..]

It's weird to think that Masahiro Sakurai kinda foresaw all of this when designing smash lol. Like I think Smash is the natural end result of making a FG that's friendly to consoles/ analog controllers on top of being intuitive to the point that a child can pick it up and immediately understand it. Like it's all there, directional moves, a block button, analog movement. Considering that smash was concieved after Sakurai wanted to make a game like KoF that could be as easy to understand as Kirby, I imagine that these were all things he noticed that could be problems for a total novice to the genre. That's why I think that Smash and platform fighters have carved out a niche for themselves and manage to thrive in FG discourse, while something like Fantasy Strike... just sort of exists? I never hear people talk about it unless it's in the discussion of trying to make fighting games more user-friendly. I think any steps to try and make fighting games more intuitive are sort of futile half-steps where the designers either don't know or don't want to admit that fighting games at their core are strange and archaic and over the course of 30 years have branched so far away from the skills modern games teach that just about everything about them past pressing buttons to attack is alien to new players.

[@phantacarrytemari]

true but atleast youtube is here to "document" these niche FG

[@chaotixspark7934]

Devil's advocate here, smash attacks are not intuitive when it was a kid. It remembers seeing the tutorial for smash attacks on mario 64 and it's like "What the fuck. Why does it need to mash the stick a direction and press the button?"

[@AndrewBlechinger]

I'd say Smash's real innovation was pioneering the inclusion of defensive counterplay. In a lot of fighting games, there's very little you can do if you're caught in a combo. Sakurai's solution to this was twofold. One, use directional inputs to put some body English on the way your character falls, so juggle situations become less predictable and easier to escape. Two, instead of chipping away their health, the goal is to send the foe flying out of bounds, which can again be affected by this system and potentially save you from an otherwise lethal blow.

[@2-Way_Intersection]

​@@chaotixspark7934i mean, that has been resolved in newer games with the right stick being bound to those moves by default

[@smugs7921]

I always love watching these. Great points made in a "mostly" concise manner that describe the thoughts of the speaker and players to some extent. Excellent examples and presented in a way that is enjoyable to consume as far as media. Top tier video as per usual keep up the fantastic work.

[@nathadniel5790]

every time a video tells me that you cant hold back when doing a DP because its a 623 so that means your taking a risk for a powerful get off me move makes me feel fucking enlightened. like damn. thats true.

[@ChernobylComedyAndWings]

Fei Long would like a word with you

[@Copperhell144]

@@ChernobylComedyAndWings Fei Long's should still count as riskier since the 4 direction is only used in the beginning of the motion. No?

[@ChernobylComedyAndWings]

​@@Copperhell144 You can hold down 4 for a long time, particularly against dive kicks this can be very useful and more useful if you have poor reaction speed.

[@chronology556]

Kensou in KOF’s DP is also reverse DP. He also has a reverse fireball. He’s pretty beginner friendly due to doing these moves with defensive inputs in such a fast game. Not to mention a good overhead and sweep. He’s low tier in every game, but tiers don’t matter at the low level when you’re learning the game and learning 3 characters. His gameplan is easy to understand and get going, and is surprisingly effective at the lower levels. Other than that, where the fuck is he in KOFXV?

[@JJStylies]

So, For me, as someone who goes out of their way to learn over a majority of the cast of any fighting game I pick up to a basic level, I noticed that my appreciation for motion inputs came and left and came back around again. Because although each character has unique moves on different inputs compared to the rest of the cast, each actual input is still the same. A fireball input is a fireball, 360 is a 360. I learned those inputs 1 by 1 because it would be the only input on a character I otherwise really liked, and then went back and found myself enjoying characters I wouldn't previously touch because I now am comfortable with those inputs. I don't think motion inputs really add any conscious strategy, instead they really just add stuff to the mental stack through the little quirks you mentioned, which I'd consider valuable in it's own right. I personally just value how it feels, and not really anything else.

[@Wynonyn]

i agree, i think motion input just add a little uniqueness and make things super fun. They arent neccecary but their also and enjoyable part of fg

[@alexfestoso3242]

As a person with semi-limited motor function, I very much appreciate this video. Keep up the good work.

[@Kirbo_The_God]

3:48 "we? Who's we? There is no we."

[@AgentBacalhau]

I think the solution is incredibly simple, and in a way, already here: Games should be made with them and without them. I enjoy shooting my stick left and right while doing stuff, I think execution makes the game more fun to me, not necessarily deeper, I can hit my BnBs and specials and supers consistently enough in some games to where it's often not a factor in that, but it's an enjoyable process nonetheless. But at the same time, I know some people don't really like that and just want to outsmart or outmanouver their opponent without as much execution barrier, and that's fine too, I don't think it's wrong, hell that's why games like Fantasy Strike and BFTG exist, and why Project L is being designed the way it is, while something like GGST still does things the old way. I'd be sad to see motion inputs go away for good, but at the same time, I don't even think they will. They're a feature that's a lot like what Counter Strike recoil control is. Sure the game influenced the military and tactical shooter genre as a whole, but something like Siege doesn't do it in the same way despite taking clear inspiration, while Valorant (and probably countless other games) obviously does.

[@ridori7376]

I think Strive is a pretty good middle point too. Instead of removing inputs alltogether, it gets rid of the more complicated ones in favor of more simple inputs that are also more consistent in the entire roster. You can pick almost any character, start throwing out quarter circles and you'll figure out most of their moveset right away. I think it would be interesting to make a game where every character has the exact same inputs, they're just connected to different moves. That should make switching from one to another way less intimidating while still keeping the skill aspect of it.

[@ridori7376]

Also please fuck DP and Shoryu inputs being tied to the same button as well as inputs that require pressing up. Any character that features any of those two instantly becomes like 5 times more frustrating to learn for no good reason.

[@flayncele]

@@ridori7376 characters that have the same button used for a DP, 236, and 236236, so you can literally misinput any of these 3 moves for one of the other 2. Especially when you're crouching and want to do a DP and BAM fuck you and all your meter here's a raw super that will achieve nothing

[@IfWhatYes]

@flayncel if they have qcf and dp input just do half circles to not get dp

[@AgentBacalhau]

@@IfWhatYes this, it's the best trick I know of. It's never gonna stop Chipp players, even high level ones, from accidentally doing run up DP when trying to do run up rekka sometimes, but if you remember to do it it helps a lot.

[@HYLOBRO]

damn Leon you put in a fuckton of effort, these videos are getting more and more beautiful, when Ken pulled out that gat I almost fell out of my chair

[@edgelord8337]

It took me so long to do the shoryuken Input yet ironically enough I could pull off the snk inputs extremely easily. Still cant do the 360 motion though.

[@Sorrelhas]

Do either 412369 or 632147, pressing the corresponding button (Punch, Kick, etc) at the same time as you press the last input (9 or 7) Some games require one more input however, and that can be 8. In that case, many grapplers have more frames of startup on their jump than other characters, so it's easy to just press 8 and the appropriate button at the same time, and you'll get the move. The trick is to just be really fast, and sadly requires some practice If you don't know what these numbers mean, just look at the numpad on your keyboard (if you have one nearby)

[@blackmanta2527]

Are you using dpad or analogue?

[@CrossfacePanda]

@@blackmanta2527 What absolute monster would use the analogue stick to do motion inputs? Like, if it works it works, of course. Not gonna tell anybody how to play a game. But jeez, unless you’re playing Smash, or a game with very few motion inputs like Soul Calibur, it just feels like you’d make it harder than it has to be.

[@sorafowler4497]

@@CrossfacePanda I play on Analogue stick :)

[@sorafowler4497]

@@CrossfacePanda Frankly the Dpad feels weird to me, and I've never had an issue with the stick

[@deuserwan5786]

Motion inputs made me play fighting games bro. Sf6 is the 1st one I really put time into and I achieved Diamond rank, it takes time to get used to it but it feels really rewarding

[@tyecrutchfield3106]

An aspect of motion controls that may be important to consider: There are only so many buttons/keys on an controller. There is a limit to how many unique "moves" the player can perform without motion input. When I started playing fighting games, 6 buttons for attacks was a LOT to try to take in. Imagine if the arcade had a unique button for every single move a fighter could perform. It would be VERY difficult to play without needing to look down to find the button you need to press. Ergonomics limit how many buttons a player can reasonably find without looking away from the screen. Motion inputs increase how many unique "moves" a player can perform without increasing the number of input buttons. I enjoyed this video and your view points for this topic. Thanks for making such an entertaining and interesting video essay!

[@MythicMachina]

So this is something that I realized as well, but I think it also adds an interesting limitation to work around. There's honestly a few ways a developer could go about getting around this issue. One way could be to make each move feel more impactful as a whole. What would feel like special moves on other games could be just on your normals, and then you can save your specials for the REALLY fun stuff! Another could be having a smaller moveset, but getting the ability to change your moveset every round. I'm imagining some kind of robot game where every round, both players can change a part on them that could swap up a special move and maybe some normals. Point is, it's an interesting problem to have, but I don't feel like people are willing to experiment with it enough to really draw the ideas.

[@rogerx2000]

this might be why it was so easy for me to get into pokken tournament, i've played other fighting games but none as much as pokken where instead of motion inputs attacks depend only on the stick's direction and the button you press, every character has the same inputs so if you want to learn a new char you only have to keep in mind the different properties of their moves, one char's forward-y could be a simple punch while another has a full screen laser, but it doesn't feel weird to switch

[@kylespevak6781]

Pretty sure Soul Calibur works like that, and obviously Smash

[@ewanherbert3402]

I think the biggest problem with fighting games is the complete lack of mastery transference. It may sound weird, but I'd say that playing Zelda or Mario prepares you for Dark Souls, playing Skyrim or Portal prepares you for CoD or Counter-Strike. There are certain basic control concepts that carry over. Fighting games don't have this. If you're used to games where the stick is only there to move your character, using up to jump just feels like ass. Using the controller to do special moves or block feels bizarre and pressing two attack buttons to do a dash feels like complete nonsense. The only thing that will make you better at fighting games is playing other fighting games. The reason Smash is so popular is because it actually plays like a normal game. You could take the controls of Smash and fit them into a decent metroidvaniaor platformer. If you do the same thing with Fighting game contorls, you get that wretched Mortal Kombat platformer.

[@mrspiffy8587]

This is exactly the issue. The original Smash 64 was made to play like Kirby Super Star to make it more accesible

[@coralinereeves9629]

I was gonna say some dumbass shit like "Well, skateboard games" but nah one hell of a pop shove it take

[@geminifiend5775]

You can literally say this for any game genre lmfao . playing tetris don't help you at RTS , playing RTS dont help you at platformers ectand the only thing you named that any of those 1 games has in common is movement they are not even close to being the same. XD some stupid logic here

[@Teknanam]

@@geminifiend5775 You didn't get his argument at all. His point is a lot of those games have basic control concepts that carry over between them despite not being in the same genre. Even Tetris with its basic controls has Up-Down-Left-Right and Diagonals that can be transferred to other games. The fact is that for anyone who didn't grow up with arcade sticks and played other genres, adjusting to traditional fighting games is always a struggle that requires commitment. You'll fight with the controls just as you fight your opponent because no other genre prepares you for them in even a basic way. Though I guess Tetris will give you directional help.

[@geminifiend5775]

@@Teknanam So, In what world does Skyrim and Portal help you in any way to play CSGO or mario help you play Dark Souls? lmfao . By that stupid logic Pac-Man prepared me to play cover shooters cuz they both have cover and Mario 64 prepared me for Tekken cuz they both in 3D. smh

[@geodude671]

10:23 Nice to see Leon overcome his phobia of Jack-o.

[@absoul112]

Man, this video is really 2 years old. There's one detail about this that I find weird. There are a decent amount of fighting games out there without motion inputs, that were made before and after the video came out. And yet few people play them. Obviously, since they're mostly indie games people don't always know they exist, but even considering that, I would assume that if someone wants something, they'd be willing to look for it (like with google).

[@Lambguy1999]

The rare actually correct take on motion inputs that isn't just blindly defending them and screeching that any fighting game without them would be trash? Let's go!

[@Xa1e]

Ayyy I appreciate the new touches in editing and the 3d models. Awesome video. Project L and Smash are the largest scale experiments in fighting games without motion inputs. I'm sure you have thoughts about Smash, DBFZ, and GBVS inputs that did not make it into the video. It will be really interesting to see how people respond to Project L. More games exploring the design space of a game without motion inputs should only make the genre more interesting and varied. Hopefully, the design solutions of Project L will inspire other games to explore other accessible control methods.

[@hakase_7]

That's the reason I've been waiting eagerly for DNFDuel and Project L. Been playing FG for a year now and while I don't struggle with motion inputs, legacy games like KOF and SF are much much harder to me compared to more forgiving games like GGStrive, in terms of input windows, combos and motion fluidity.

[@IfWhatYes]

Was excited for dnf but they put a block button in it so it's dead for me. Project L gonna be hype for sure though

[@jacopomalatesta4913]

@@IfWhatYes bruh I’m not used to block buttons but I’m pretty damn sure that you can get accustomed to it fairly easily

[@bageltoo]

Block buttons are fine as long as the game is built around it. Mixups might just be more high-low strike-throw oriented

[@IfWhatYes]

@Jacopo Malatesta its just boring when crossups are pointless is all. Not like it's hard to block with a button, just less mix in the game. I like them making games easier i don't like losing core mechanics

[@jacopomalatesta4913]

@@IfWhatYes yeah… you know not every game where you punch another dude has to be the same, maybe you don’t have that mechanic, but you have some other stuff, you know, like in smash, also there are plenty of ways a game can have his mixups, and also not every mixup is fun for the opponent and you, on the other side something that makes you feel like you made s super hard read is extremely satisfying, but you know, not every fighting game has to be street fighter 2 with different characters, I’m ok with the change if they add something that substitutes at least spiritually that mechanic

[@GigaMan91]

While I had Street Fighter II and Super Street Fighter II for SNES as a kid, I sucked at them. Learning the motion inputs and executing them, as well as fighting the ridiculous AI were heavy barriers for me. The only fighting game series I grew up with was Super Smash Bros., which instantly clicked with me because the genre I grew up with was platformers (Mario, Kirby, etc.), so the logic of Smash was perfectly sound in my brain. Free range of movement, I can jump and double jump anywhere, and each move was mapped to a single direction + action button. It was super easy for me, and it was the only fighting game I could competently play. It's because of that that when I play traditional fighters, especially 2D fighters which is Smash's closest relative, I find myself habitually trying to force platforming logic to the game when I'm not allocated that kind of freedom. If I just jump whenever I feel like, I get punished hard. Because I'm so used to Smash's basic inputs, I have a very hard time memorizing and executing motion inputs. It's a constant struggle, and one I can only get past if I'm playing every day, and if I stop playing for too long, I forget almost everything; whereas, no matter how long I go without playing Smash, it will always come natural to me no matter what. Yay! "Baba Is You" music!

[@AndrewRKenny]

This is a pretty good video. I like all of the perspectives and most of the points were pretty well presented and supported. A lot of other comments have covered my thoughts, but I haven't found any on one set of thoughts I have yet. I think that there is insane value to having good single player or casual multiplayer content that helps you learn the controls of the game or interact with its fundamental systems outside of a more "competitive" environment. IDK what that might look like for any given game, but I think that this type of content is often super overlooked and (at least on paper) offers a ton of benefits to the game on a casual level (more fun stuff to do without demanding improvement) and on a competitive level (gets more people playing without compromising core gameplay).

[@FriendlyKillbot]

When I was a kid everyone was playing Street Fighter 2 on Genesis, and like you said, I was one of the many unable to get either a DP or a fireball on command, I would often flub it up and do the wrong one. When I went to practice, as my 10 year old self, I remember saying "Diagonal" to myself every time I wanted to do a DP as I did the DP motion, reminding myself that I needed to end on a diagonal and not a forward or back. I almost instantly stopped getting a fireball when I wanted a DP or vice versa, and to this day I still think the word "diagonal" as I do every DP, despite the fact that it's been almost 30 years.

[@Arlo5.13]

I got into traditional fighting games because I found Terry's motion inputs in smash ultimate very fun. I still love motion inputs to this day and find them even more interesting (especially in KOF ironically enough since its inputs have a "reputation"), but I also enjoyed this video and your thoughts are very well-put out and have me thinking more about the topic than before. Thanks for making such entertaining videos ☺️

[@oniononion69]

About your conclusion, I think a fighting game that works shockingly well with (almost) no motion inputs, save for some attack that require holding back or down and such, is Pokken Tournament. The lack of hard to execute specials combined with the way grab, counters and normal attacks are basically designed as rock paper scissors with worse graphics, result in a game that, even at an entry level, is a lot more about learning what tools your character has and how to read your opponent, rather than learning how to even access those tools.

[@returningwhisper]

It's a design choice for sure, I'm excited to see how Riot handles it with their fighting game based on League.

[@FioreFire]

Thank you very much for approaching this issue from more angles than just whether or not the inputs themselves are hard to do on their own like certain other fighting game analysis youtubers tend to do

[@Lamentationsofapoory]

Idk how much traction this video gets nowadays but SF6's Modern Control scheme may just be the solution you've been looking for. Specials mapped to a button instead of inputs on it's own removes a FUCKIN MASSIVE barrier to entry

[@mackojacko]

This is proof among us arena is the greatest fighting game

[@AcroxShadow]

Repetitive strain injury is a pretty major factor in this topic for me. It's rough trying to learn a game when you can't play it much.

[@Tr0lliPop]

The rebinding moves to other motion inputs part made me think: Maybe if you had motion inputs that are similar _enough_ by design, you _could_ be able to interchange them. For example, the DP motion starts with a forward which means it's easier to do when walking forward. It also requires 3 inputs that are not able to block. You know what other motion is like that? 632. A.k.a. Reverse quarter circle forward. Forward, down/forward, down. Or for another example a full-circle punch motion could be replaced with half-circle back and forward, then punch.

[@codegeass7162]

I think just gave voice more eloquently than anything else to my frustrations to learning fighting games, especially SFV and shoryuken as an anti-air. Thank you.

[@wikanari]

I really love how you write a script. It really keeps me on my toes and I learn a bunch. I like all the new animation stuff you've been putting in. If you want to make non fighting game comment I'd still watch your stuff. Nice job man.

[@annieone-trick]

After watching this, I'd really love to see your take on the Street Fighter 6 modern controls, and whether the drawbacks Capcom intentionally worked into this setting actually offset the advantages of one-button specials and stuff.

[@PatOnTheBack321]

I looked for this comment, bc I knew I wasn't the only one with this thought.

[@noahferny2644]

Wow feel the same way about pre learning motion inputs and post learning them. Before learning them I was super against them but now I feel that it's such staple and balance tool that removing it would come with losing a degree of control by the game devs and fundamentally changing how many characters work. Does create a fundamental dilemma for new players tho. Interested to see how the riot fighting game project L will handle this. Since they want as much accessibility as possible. Another banger video, love the improved video edits! Keep up the stellar work.

[@runbaa9285]

From what I know, they know the inherent imbalance one-button specials bring. So, they actually design the game without any DPs in mind. No Shoryuken or any invincible reversals, basically. That kind of move would be far too strong in a one-button special game environment.

[@garbageknights]

Motion inputs were amazing, learning a new motion input to access another move for your character felt amazing... back before the internet. Back when the main people I was fighting was my friends, it helped me stay one step above them, but now we can play with people online, and with KZbin learning how to deal with these moves or do them isn't that hard. They don't feel like a level up, they feel like the base line. I think motion inputs are great, and should be used in more games, not just fighting games, I just also think the idea needs to evolve. My most played fighting game is Brawlhalla right now, and partly because if I want to learn a new character, it's fairly easy. Characters play wildly different but fundamentally, they share a lot amount the cast.

[@Drebin1989]

They're already are other games. Bayonetta and Devil May Cry have them. The NBA 2k games have them with the dribble moves and some finishes. Castlevania and some of the Kirby games have them apparently,etc

[@garbageknights]

@@Drebin1989 Yup there is a handful of games that use them, doesn't change the fact I think they should be a more ubiquitous idea

[@Drebin1989]

@@garbageknights try more than a handful hence the etc.

[@alfierose5068]

This channel is criminally underrated

[@DjAeroXx]

That transition at 7:53 was god like props to you or your editor also really enjoying the video!

[@AnaglyphicHacker]

I think this is why DNF Duel's first beta was really interesting, and im excited for the second. Its simple layout of specials makes characters easier to pick up and play, but for higher level players you can focus more on strategy rather than execution. Theres still a massive skill ceiling in combos and using the moves correctly, but the barrier of entry feels like a step instead of a fence.

[@ezramoore9472]

This didn't age well

[@arron390]

​@@ezramoore9472yeah that game is dead lmao

[@simplyeyeronic1443]

It's also important to note that supposedly simple inputs can be horrid in their own right. Smash bros, for example, is known for its simple inputs for specials, but because there no tilt or smash button, those moves are dependant on how fast you flick the stick, which is super annoying to do in a game all about fluid movement. A dash attack, a smash attack, and a tilt all have basically the same motions with different timings. There's a reason that they gave us tilt stick. Furthermore, turnaround inputs are a pain as well. Things like a forward facing downtilt out of a dash are either a super precise input or what basically amounts to a half circle. Wavebouncing is super cool, but even with macros it can be annoying. Especially on moves that change their properties if the stick was flicked fast or not, since the macros will give you a fast input.

[@GamerTowerDX]

You can Smash Attack by pressing A+B.

[@Stathio]

I felt the same way originally, until learning that you can assign tilts to the C-stick in Ultimate. The MOMENT I did this, my ability to fight better went through the roof. It basically singlehandedly proved to me that motion inputs (and awkward motion stuff like them, like the original versions of tilt attacks) were the main reason I've always struggled to actually, 'y'know... *play* fighting games properly, and in a way that's actual fun and not fights being interrupted with a quick round of controller Dance Dance Revolution before you can actually hit someone as intended.

[@finch66]

NEW LEON MASSEY WHO UP

[@helloimvon]

Yo!

[@thepeen6784]

Yo

[@HxH2011DRA]

I really appreciate this video, I hadn't seen this topic addressed with much balanced in my short time as a newbie so I'm glad I found it

[@noah-ux2cz]

I swear this guy went from a fighting game KZbinr to a budget FUNKe

[@KonkeyVG]

Great even-handed video, I like that people with impaired motor function and the inherent inaccessibility is discussed. Unfortunately I feel like the FGC are rarely willing to even admit this is the case. Personally, I don't know why but I always have a split-second of apprehension before I roman cancel because it feels a unnatural to me, and that split-second means it is functionally useless option for me. So being able to rebind certain universal mechanics like that would be a cool idea.

[@aidanhayes3571]

Yeah, and those elitist pricks insist that any game with simple inputs MUST let them do motion inputs for a massive benefit so big that people are strongarmed into doing motion inputs at anything above bottom level play. Shit like the face of Granblue's "simple inputs", DnF, SF6's modern controls. The downside of the simple inputs should be roughly analogous to how the motion input affects balance (like increased startup), not what these games do. There's also the fact motion inputs are way harder on gamepad than on a fightstick, and fightsticks aren't cheap. Buying an expensive controller should only ever be a significant factor at high level play.

[@aidanhayes3571]

Surströmming, a traditional Swedish cuisine, is lightly salted, fermented Baltic Sea herring. The drama comes from the fact that it's canned and the fermentation process occurs in the can, which leads to high internal pressure in the can and make it potentially explosive. This had led to it being banned from a number of airlines. It also apparently smells awful.

[@aidanhayes3571]

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surstr%C3%B6mming

[@farrowking37]

I'm surprised that it isn't mentioned that motion inputs have a purpose other than just adding complexity, they change when and how the tool can be accessed. Guile can't throw a fireball while walking forwards but Ryu or Ken can. The 360 motions common to grapplers mean that they tend to have to use them following other moves, as you can buffer the input following a whiffed normal.

[@mylostisaac6452]

Wtf there is literally a whole section on the video about that exact concept

[@Bimbes_McFly]

Interesting that you had footage of DBFZ while talking about the barrier of learning new characters, since I feel like DBFZ has very standardized motions that makes it very easy to pick up a new character. Any thoughts on games like Granblue Fantasy Versus, Fantasy Strike, or the upcoming DNF Duel and Project L that don't have motions or have the options of motions/directional inputs?

[@strawhatsage3611]

the editing oh lord almighty the editing, whatta beautiful video

[@CoralCopperHead]

"Align your chakras to Karmic Twist into Whiff DP?" That's my bread and butter, man!

[@Darkflyer71]

The ending gave me some whiplash. How did it go from "motion inputs are an interesting balance decision" to "remove motion inputs"? Is it not that allure that drew you in in the first place, helping the characters feel more unique? Overall very good video. I just didn't quite understand how after understanding and conveying all that information, it came down to "but I don't want to learn, so change it.".

[@GamerTowerDX]

There is some stuff that is objectively good,but you might not personally like or you are just not feeling anymore.

[@Darkflyer71]

Also in the video he says he would just "play a different game", while overlaying footage of an FPS. I would argue that the task of learning to aim in a shooter is a MONUMENTAL undertaking compared to learning motions for fighting games. A huge portion of player skill is entirely predicated on how precisely and quickly you can control your character and aim in flash scenarios.

[@Thyyyyyyyyme]

@@Darkflyer71 This is true, but limited in your thinking. The reason people generally don't consider learning the basics of an FPS to be similar, is because the basics are far, far more widespread. First Person Shooters don't only control like First Person Shooters, they control like Third Person Shooters, and First/Third Person RPGs with a controllable camera, and a wide, wide array of other games. The intricacies between games and genres will be different, but the basics are almost universally consistent. Fighting games, on the other hand, only really control like fighting games. Even then, different games and different characters within games control completely differently.

[@Darkflyer71]

@@Thyyyyyyyyme I don't personally actively play any shooters, but I am given to understand that every weapon has a different spread pattern, and frequently every character has different abilities and mechanics the player needs to learn and adapt to. Just like shooters have a similar base of control universally, fighting games tend to have the same thing. I can go from any fighting game to another and still be able to do a dp or fireball motion. It seems to me that players are more accepting of learning a shooter purely because they don't understand/comprehend the level of mechanical depth that exists, whilst in a fighting game the barrier to a higher level of play is more obvious.

[@centy4773]

Like you said, motion inputs are like a spice. A spice that however much I want to like, I’m still allergic to. (I really want to get into fighting games, but I physically haven’t been able to with this barrier that is motion inputs. Kinda makes me sad, so if you have any tips on actual execution please give them)

[@chillyjelly2366]

For execution tips, I'm assuming you're playing on just a regular controller and in that case i would recommend using the dpad instead of the analog stick if you aren't doing so already. It's more precise, helping make sure you actually input all the necessary inputs without accidentally jumping which tended to happen to me when i used the stick. A lot of games have a function in training mode where you can see what inputs were registered which can be helpful in finding out where something may have gone wrong. As for actually doing the motion, I'd recommend starting out slow to get a feel for it. Also it's good to remember you don't need to press the attack button at the exact moment as the last direction of the motion input, it's better to press it just a little bit later. If this all sounds vague or too general I'd be happy to help and specify.

[@joedatius]

yeah learning to use the D-pad helped me alot. another thing is to try not to learn everything at once, just focus on easy stuff and work your way up, I used to not be able to throw fire balls in street fighter but now im able to use pretzel motions

[@edoardocaccia6226]

This explains quite well part of why I can't seem to enjoy traditional fighting games even though I really like watching discussions about them. Seeing how moves interact and what strategies each character brings to the table and what tools you want to use to face different matchups is really cool, then I try to pick up a game and it sucks that I have to spent a lot of time not just training for the inputs, but even memorising which input does what, which is a lot of confusion because it's usually really arbitrary (why does a straight uppercut need a downwards wiggle input?) and I'm not willing to go through all that for every character just to be able to play the game. Charges are the only thing I kinda like because of the stuff you said, they require you to create space, hold ground, and find creative ways to sneak them into other actions, everything else usually feels just like gating you out of your own moveset without really adding depth to the strategy, just to execution; I recognise it can still give expression to each player's style, but not the the kind i personally like.

[@benmcreynolds8581]

Since I grew up skateboarding, when EA Skate 1 came out I was hooked and played it for insane amounts of time through out my life. It's movement control & trick control was so satisfying. It felt like evolved fingerboarding. Which was a funny yet relaxing hobby at the time. Something about skate 1 had the best physics, level design & character design. It actually felt satisfying to pull off certain tricks on high ledges compared to normal height objects. The other 2 games lost that feel & felt more floaty. I wish gaming would come out with a bunch of new MMA video games and boxing video games. I love combat sports and there's so much potential there for those games.

[@cloakx3640]

Came here after dying to my lil brother far too many times in GGST. Love the video.

[@BIaziken2]

I do think motions should still be in FGs if only because they're something that's unique to the genre and give the games a different flavour compared to other games. I disagree with the idea that controls are something that can't have their own learning curve cause I feel like it leads to a situation where games sort of converge on the same homogenised inputs and games trying to do something different with a more unconventional control scheme is seen as wrong. That being said I definitely don't have an issue with some games trying to remove them, but I don't think legacy series like SF, GG, KOF etc should get rid of them.

[@doorto6152]

That conclusion at the end: THANK YOU! That's what I've been feeling about motion inputs for years. And you summarized it succinctly. To me, if you can play a MMO with a controller (Final Fantasy XIV), a genre where you have access to as many options as a fighting game character, then you can design a control scheme that balances offense and defense without sacrificing technical finesse.

[@sas911]

TL;DR I agree that motion inputs have a real downside (being unable to do something that seems "basic" feels horrifically bad to newer players). I disagree with almost the entirety of the video. 4:05 I should probably just consider this as the four minutes before it as "random pre-amble for setting up suspense". But I mean, if you made motion inputs do shit loads of damage, that is the literal opposite of what someone against motion inputs would want, so it stuck out to me. 6:10 just adding that one of the most distinctive features of the DP is you can't block and being inputting a dp at the same time. 9:08 Why on earth are we talking about re-binding keys? There are lots of things you can't rebind. You can't make it so that you click a single button and buy an entire loadout in CS. You can't make it so that you click a button instead of aim with your mouse to aim a skillshot on top of someone in league of legends. You can't re-bind spray patterns. Why? Because all of those things have nothing to do with simple accessibility QoL features, and everything to do with how the game is fundamentally structured. Those are still, directly tied to physical actions the player has to do on their controller. And... it makes the game harder, which has ups and downs, but is not in any way unique to fighting games. If you have trouble understanding how that argument is ridiculous, imagine if you couldn't rebind a key in League of legends. Would you say that's the same as motion inputs? Or would you say that they clearly have nothing to do with each other? 10:18 is frankly ridiculous. If I have cerebral palsy I can't play an FPS. That doesn't mean aiming in FPS should be removed, because it's unique to the genre and limits accessibility. 10:35 This is a common phenomenon that happens in almost all games, hell, even the majority of things we do outdoors, so it's interesting to be an argument against motion inputs. If you are bad at auto-attacking minions to get last hits, you might "like the idea" of an ADC, but you might find the gameplay to be a struggle. I might like the idea of being a tank in an MMO, but I might not want to learn all of the requisite boss mechanics in a raid. Whether it's mechanical execution, playstyle, aesthetics, high-difficulty characters, etc, all of this can lead to mismatches. This will never change, and has nothing to do with motion inputs. 13:00 It took 13 minutes, but this is the crux of what I think is a fundamental problem of motion inputs. See, lots of games have high skill requirements in lots of different ways. People aren't saying RTS needs to make macroing not exist because it's hard. People aren't asking for auto head lock ons in FPS. People aren't asking for AI-assisted skillshots in LoL. But the key is that in fighting games, you're outright locked away from a move. It's like the game explicitly telling you that you are terrible, and makes you feel like you're being locked out from even starting the game. 18:30 It's a hard balance in practice. Do you want unique diverse characters that are rich? That sounds great, but you're also encouraging drastically different, overwhelming choices and lots of things you will suck at, and match ups you need to learn one at a time. Do you want combo diversity? Otherwise known as, learn and lots of specific combos for specific situations for specific resources? Do you want hard combos (so that you can see risky but rewarding combos that you can constantly be working towards)? I can't answer those questions for you. Did you like Dragonball fighterz more it has more universal mechanics which allow you to more easily switch between characters? Did you enjoy guilty gear strive because the more simplified combo routes means it's easier to play the character at 80% of it's potential? I think that fundamentally, these problems are around difficulty, and while some of that difficulty does come from motion inputs, I see it as a result of the developers intention for difficulty rather than the other way around. Frankly, I can totally understand having trouble finding the energy and drive to pick a whole ass can of worms that is a new game, or even just a new character. In fact, it's a big reason why some people don't want to ever play a new moba! But yet, I somehow really.... really... really doubt that the thing that's holding you back from trying more characters is the motion inputs. Like why would that be more important, then having to learn completely new combo routes, completely different neutral approaches, different moves with different properties, different gauges, different pressure and neutral goals, the works. But no, god forbid I'm not used to doing 236H, that's why I don't want to try playing Johnny.

[@GamerTowerDX]

With the bind question:I wouldn't say they would the same,but some issues would overlap with eachother,like,im pretty sure someone who didnt like the QWER setup of league feels more comfortable with being able to rebind,and i for one if charge characters weren't a thing i wouldn't have touched fighting games with a ten foot pole,so having the option to make every character a charge character would be apreciated.

[@FightStreeting]

What a perfectly dense chunk of information and the editing on this is just a joy to watch. This is one of your best videos! Love the work!

[@Tuss36]

Thank you very much for this video! It really puts into words a lot of the problems I've had trying to get into fighting games that I couldn't find the words for.

[@Newtindustries]

Nice video and good job navigating that minefield of a topic! As a developer myself I've spent years with the assistance of a good friend and FG player coming up with a system that accomplishes the intention of motion inputs (varying options with strategic trade offs) while having it coincides with readability and the ability to intuit what something will do. We landed on "motion context" and have applied this system to a character action game first which will have its first public showing in 23-ish days at a gaming convention and hopefully a downloadable demo not too long after that. If you're interested I can try and message you or something when it becomes available so you can see one potential alternative control scheme for FGs going forward.

[@Yous0147]

I have the exact same perspective as you, and I share the same sentiment about motion inputs. Funnily enough I've been thinking the same since SF4. I think in general if you come from a different background than fighting game or have in depth firsthand experience with mechanics from games besides fighting games, everything from similar titles such as Monster Hunter and Dark Souls, to adjecent titles such as trick/skating games, rythm games, shooters, kart racers, you name it... you intimately feel just how weird input moves are in fighting games compared to any other game type, of which you don't if you're steeped into the system. Quarter circles, Tiger motions and Half circles are fine and fit the fighting games they were created for, but I deeply wish to experience a fighting game that retains the quick wit strategic aspects of the genre while exploring more novel control schemes, that above all else feel intuitive. Particularly Arcsys are actually trying to do that with fighting games today, exactly as you said, to appeal to a wider audience, a trend that started with P4A and Blazblue getting a basic 4xA combo, for then to DBZF to standardize an "automatic" mode that has since been more or less worked on in newer titles. Personally, I respect the intention behind these ideas, but I think these try to solve the "problems" with motion inputs while also retaining motion inputs the same way they still are, which I feel is misguided. These kinds of half-hearted solutions end up making the control scheme even more muddied bringing about less clarity and finetuned control, which is the exact opposite of what people want. The reason why motion inputs are hard for new players is simple: They're unintuitive. Especially in context with movement and blocking. Atleast until you've beaten your brain to build the muscle memory for them. The "fix" for this is to make a moveset that's more readily intuitive. Doing that requires questioning the fundamental aspects of most fighting games, consider f.ex. if you designed a fighting game with dual sticks control. This would invalidate fighting sticks, which would be problematic, which begs the question how much you want/need to contend with what's already established in pursuit of something novel in the cost of legacy players? To me the golden spot is finding a way to satisfy both while still pushing the barrier to new ideas. This might not be appropriate for some fighting games, but I think it's well worth exploring for new titles.

[@AftermathRV]

19:10 so more like...tekken 8 then? i mean, we have some motion inputs, notably, stances usually come from that or from moves, but like we dont really have DP inpputs and unless you play king you dont really have half circles either? and lots of "generic moves" tend to be on same-ish- buttons, like, whats the solution here?

[@espurrseyes42]

Mist Step is literally a DP. Forward, Down, Down-Forward, then whatever button you need to press. There's even a Just-Frame version of the iconic Wind God First that requires pressing the last direction and the corresponding Punch on the same Frame. And this is on the FACES of the franchise.

[@AftermathRV]

@@espurrseyes42 Thats "some" motion inputs, most of the inputs arent motion inputs, lee is an exception seeing as hes a rythm specialist

[@espurrseyes42]

@@AftermathRV That's THE main characters of the whole series who a beginning player would likely gravitate towards.

[@AftermathRV]

@@espurrseyes42 and jin has been made easier and so have electrics. the input is still forward, neutral forward downforward, thats...not the same as a DP input. im sorry but even so, im arguing sheer quantity here, most moves just simply arent,dont know what to tell you

[@espurrseyes42]

@@AftermathRV They're similar enough to where Mist Step will work for a DP and some of the same tricks like repeatedly rolling QCFs will work for both. Even Smash Ultimate just uses a DP for Kazuya's Mist Step. Because the idea of the inputs are the same: Forward, Down, Down-Forward. They're fundamentally the same inputs. Also this is just DPs. Pretty sure one of Jin's moves used the Kokugenryu Machinegun Fist input of Forward Back Forward, and I think he has a half circle for someone. "Most moves" being Strings or Command Normals doesn't negate the fact that Tekken has true motion inputs, have a very iconic one that's also a Just Frame, and has this Just Frame DP input move on the "Starter" characters of the series.

[@kingraven2227]

motion imputs are kinda why im such a big fan of street fighter 6's modern control scheme. now instead of swinging my left thumbstick around wildly i can press one motion and one button at the same time. it makes the game enjoyable for me and probably anybody else who never really had the ability to memorize entire combos that swing your thumstick around so much

[@freshlymemed5680]

Motion inputs were definitely one of my biggest hurdles starting out. Everything from memorizing them to doing harder inputs like Z's and Half circle forwards, but imo I found it fun once the barrier to entry was overcome. The neatest part is how many inputs can be tied to one button, you got forward quartercircles, backward quarter circles, Z inputs, half circles, half circle forwards, 360's, 720's, the dreaded pretzel.

[@grantmonsma3569]

I think the anti-air example highlights a problem with giving the player the option between "simple but inferior" vs "difficult but superior" options which is not exclusive to fighting games. The DP is optimal for a skilled player who can hit it every time easily, while a novice would be best off blocking or using a normal rather than risking botching the DP or simply being too slow; but the novice player actually needs to use the DP just as much, if not more than the expert because they need to practice the move the most, and they can least afford to lose potential advantage since they are poorly equipped in general to handle disadvantage or stay in advantage. I don't think that the "simple but effective" options in games should entirely disappear in favor of purely more difficult but more rewarding ones, but ideally I believe games should take steps to make it easier to identify when you're improving at a skill you're not yet competent in, and provide more opportunities to use (and therefore practice) those skills in a live scenario. For example, a "CLOSE!" or "LATE!" pop-up (like a rhythm game lol) if you attempt a special move and get hit/drop the combo due to being too slow would give helpful feedback to let the player know they're at least on the right track. A similar feature for inputs that come too early would also be great for combo trials and other training mode features. If fighting games want to become more accessible, they need to encourage newcomers to use motion inputs MORE. Giving players alternatives that fulfill a similar function with a lower execution threshold narrows the *performance* gap between a less experienced player using those tools and a more experienced player using more difficult options, but it doesn't do much to reduce the painful process of learning to use those harder tools.

[@screeno42]

actually, on that rhythm game idea, the thing I found helped me get past mashing in fighting games was to find my characters' rhythm. Like, I hit a button, and then do a '1, 2, 3' count in my head before hitting the next button or input, and once I found a character's tempo I was able to do inputs and land combos way easier, like learning to waltz or something. Having an 'input practice' mode and/or adding a 'rhythm tracker' to combo trials is definitely something I hope to see in new FGs.

[@Stroggoii]

It's not simple vs hard, it's safe vs unsafe and the unsafe option rewards you accordingly to how hard you would get clapped if you failed it. The best players don't always use the unsafe options, if it's not necessary it's not correct.

[@grantmonsma3569]

Your ability to perform the input consistently and quickly determines how safe the move is, though. An inexperienced player who is bad at motion inputs will be inconsistent and slow at making use of specials, and so naturally they are going to avoid using specials because a move which is so unreliable is never the optimal choice. But this completely goes against the need to attempt to use the move anyways in order to practice, and so the novice is stuck in a position where: - They can avoid using motion inputs entirely, which might leave them with better performance in the near term but prevents them from developing their skills - They can try and use motion inputs despite their inconsistency, and likely leave themselves open to a big punish whenever they inevitably fail to make the move safe There's a significant division between playing to win and playing to learn, and games with significant mechanical depth (FGs or otherwise) would be wise to make failure as tolerable and educational as possible. Not that you should be handed wins for failing, but making it painless to get into matches over and over again makes it easier to get a lot of practice in, and improved tools to see where, how, and how much you failed (or succeeded) would help to track personal growth.

[@geraldtheoctopus1594]

All fighting games should have a mode for training to use individual moves. Where the exact imputs are on screen and the game pauses in between inputs so even if your new to a game and have no idea how to use a move you can still get confirmation that you're pressing the correct inputs. After you execute the attack the game tells you how fast you did it and if it was fast enough to actually work in a match.

[@MokoES]

or just do it like SF6 that gived you a message in training mode whenever you do it right. No need of slow mo or speed just the message of "success" with the motion being shown right next to it is enough.

[@sentientmonke8265]

That's exactly what SF6 did with it's character guides - when a new move is shown you're given a prompt to try it out yourself, with the controls at the middle of the screen, and it gives you "success" when you input AND hit the training opponent correctly.

[@melliel2957]

The ending comments of the video are something I feel like I needed to hear from an experienced fighting game player. This has given me a bit of hope that I had lost about fighting games. There's a lot of issues I have with fighting games that always drive me away the instant I try to get back into them. Trying to learn to play a fighter is suffocating unless you spend hours in training mode. Combos are long and take control away from a player, which on the receiving end is irritating and unengaging, especially as a new player who may spend more time in the opponent's combo than making actual decisions, and on the dealing end is just another aspect of the game you have to learn to feel like you're playing the game right. This shit has me spending almost 90% of my time in the games' training modes and 1% playing with other people because I'm too scared that I'm not prepared enough to have fun. I don't feel any of this ever get addressed enough. It gets addressed sometimes, but nothing really ever comes of it. I have friends who would see my point but be hesitant to agree with me on them. It makes me wonder if fighting games are just not for me. To hear Leon's summary, though, and have it align with a lot of things I think about to myself, regardless of if he would agree with my specific points, it makes me feel I am not alone in my beliefs. If you see this, Mr. Massive, thank you, so much, for this video.

[@MikeDeeJackson]

I've seen like 3 other channels recently talk about the fireball or other FGC inputs that are infamous with the genre and I'm not mad about it. Here's to another great video and a great community!

[@lados7145]

12:30 Fantasy Strike doesn’t have directional inputs, it’s entire gimmick is that moves are easy to perform and the barrier to entry is as low as physically possible for a fighting game