Was Green Hand a Mistake?

[@jmcrofts]

Try Rocket Money for free: rocketmoney.com/jmcrofts #RocketMoney #personalfinance

[@zkosmith1662]

Still waiting for Ed combo trials

[@WillyMerc]

Hey @jmcrofts ! You should have Siberian Lab on a vid to discuss the green hand and other Zangief quirks. He is a great Gief player that’s unknown but big in the SF6 geif tech community

[@FoolsGil]

Green Hand has nothing to do with Gief as a wrestler. It's just how his ki manifest itself. This is like asking what Somersault Kick have to do with an Air Force Officer.

[@dorjedriftwood2731]

I wish he hadn’t lost it. It made snake eyes gameplay extremely exciting to watch. Since then I have never called zangief exciting at all. Also snake eyes in my opinion was never able to capture the same excitement in his gameplay with any other character.

[@takeshisakami]

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmnah

[@jefersonarthur4518]

It's implied in World Tour that after all his training he has kind of figured out ki like other characters. Meaning he could theoretically throw a projectile but it's just not his style.

[@PipeRetrogamer]

All of gief's dialogues in SF6 are so wholesome, they just made me love the character more.

[@dnkndonutts8662]

They’ve gotta give zangief a hadouken

[@bastianrhone9390]

I'd love to see a green move for zangief if they ever add moves to sf6 pipe dream i suppose

[@spicyluvsyou]

It'd be so awesome if zangief had a spark bolt like projectile like target from BlazBlue.

[@dnkndonutts8662]

@@bastianrhone9390 they should give him a green hadouken instead of green hand since the drive system kinda does what the green hand do

[@wonderfulwardy]

Street Fighter: The Movie's EX Green Hand for Zangief can actually reverse opponents fireballs on them which was pretty neat.

[@wonderfulwardy]

So I think SF: The Movie's Zangief was the best. "Quick!.... Change the channel!" ;)

[@FoolsGil]

I was about to say that's what they should've done for gief in SF6

[@TheCrewExpendable]

Give Zangief Potemkin's F.D.B. !

[@Dickinabox]

That’d be neat in SF6 even if they don’t have green hand i could see that as a solid buff for the ex lariat or even tundra storm lol

[@artyblazy4640]

I can believe Zangief reflecting fireballs with a flick.

[@SuperNerd000]

If I remember right, wasn't it explained briefly at some point that green hand as a technique was literally born from his hatred of others constantly throwing projectiles at him? Like, the fire was literally his burning hatred of zoning.

[@simonb.8868]

cool theory

[@bulb9970]

That’s actually true. The Alpha series had some manga volumes published in the 90s. At one point Zangief states that he hates projectiles and just slaps a hadoken away. He created the technique out of frustration.

[@DrSwazz]

@@bulb9970 That's based af. But then...lore wise, did he just stop hating projectiles in Street Fighter 6? I mean, it clearly says in his bio that he does, but then like, why would he give up the move.

[@SiniBANG]

​@@bulb9970 I'll check this on SF Alpha and Sakura Ganbaru.

[@ZigTheHunter]

@DrSwazz maybe he thought he was over relying on it and thought it was stunting his growth as a fighter to not be able to deal with a form of fighting he hated in any other way.

[@guylikesguitar]

19:25 Back in the day when Street Fighter IV was new, me and my buddy always played it at his place after school. One day, during a heated fight, he came up with the name "Fist of Chernobyl". We called it that ever since.

[@thesavingmenslivesnetwork]

That's way cooler than "Banishing Flat". Props to your friend!

[@KingCuba]

The fact it isn’t called that is a huge oversight for them. OF COURSE it should be called that. I couldn’t have come up “the name For it” but Fist of Chernobyl is obviously what it should be called

[@AoiHeartStranger]

​@KingCuba I mean it's obviously isn't called that because it's loaded politically and Zangief is not even ukrainian, as far as I know.

[@KuroYamigetsu]

I'm calling it that forever now

[@signorpaldoni]

@@AoiHeartStranger back in 1986 Ukraine was under CCCP so Chernobyl disaster was perceived as a Soviet Union disaster (Russia).

[@WantSomeWhiskey818]

I think a missed opportunity for Capcom was having his Drive Impact animation not be the green hand animation. I feel like that would've been a good middle ground for the character.

[@jmcrofts]

that would be pretty cool actually

[@nicorobin7762]

the headsplitter he does for his DI is pretty cool tho

[@sm_ked]

@@nicorobin7762I agree, all the wrestling moves they gave him make him so cool

[@michaelmccoy1794]

@whiskey do you mean his drive RUSH animation? It is not only green but it is forward advancing...

[@WantSomeWhiskey818]

@@michaelmccoy1794 I meant Drive Impact, Drive Rush isnt an attack so it wouldnt make sense to give it that animation.

[@DillonMeyer]

Don't worry. Three years down the line when we get the "final" season of DLC for SF6, they'll do a character movelist update and add back Green Hand and also give us Aerial Tundra Storm so Geif can counter kicks in the air and go from A tier to X tier and banned from tournaments.

[@ominousparallel3854]

Aerial Tundra Storm 😂😂😂

[@GeneralGlockasiah]

To explain the reason for Zangief having green energy on his hand, capcom can say storywise, Zangief saw it fit to learn how to use his inner spirit energy to increase his physical power. In Zangief understanding, he comes to rationalize that this energy is from within himself and not some cheap trick. The reason he only has the energy on one attack is because he is still a beginner at using energy and is in no hurry to progress his skill using it.

[@laziness6641]

So you're saying we'll get a green SPD in Street Fighter 10?

[@VoidEternal]

The flame comes from him sweating vodka, and slapping the air so hard it ignites.

[@ajkcool]

The only correct answer in this comment section.

[@peteomarjebdollosa9170]

That's something a Baki character would do.

[@McRcFly]

So it was racist..

[@kollatherals_alt]

​@@McRcFly what????

[@McRcFly]

@kollatherals_alt racist stereo type. Anyway It was a joke so don't get your panties in a twist

[@Super121830]

I thought they removed green hand because it wasn't thenatically appropiate, to which I wondered "why didn't they make it a blur/distortion effect instead?

[@diyanski3022]

Yeah, like a slap so hard it generates heat or something

[@kenrickkahn]

It does feel out of place for his character.. What Capcom should have did was make it out of a slap or a slap chop since it fits his pro wrestler personality..

[@streptococo4735]

​@@kenrickkahnBRO, HONDA LITERALLY HAS A SLAP THAT CANCELS FIREBALLS, BUT ZANGIEF DOESN'T

[@joedatius]

@@streptococo4735 because he literally doesn't need it he has multiple other anti-fireball moves.

[@Magiccircle100]

The lore was he learned it to beat fireballs in the comic. He didn't understand Ki but through training he learned away to block it.

[@WHATISUTUBE]

7:48 "They don't usually let grapplers get that strong" nailed it right on the head. Gief wasn't 'busted' or 'broken'. He was near top tier. That was the only issue. There's no issue with Akuma always being top tier. Chun li being top tier for 30 years. Ken. etc. I honestly don't know why they keep putting him in the games if they despise him.

[@bolthead437]

It fucking sucks ass well because its obviously just to appeal to the noobs who get pwned by grapplers at low tiers, despite the fact they will get snowballed by grapplers even if they suck regardless. Its a real shame because even when grapplers are top tier, they still usually have some awful matchups at top tier and are quite counterable

[@Aznbomb3r]

Chun Li has always been up and down, not top tier for 30 years. ST - Top Alpha 1 - Bottom 1 Alpha 2 - Top 2 Alpha 3 - Lower end of Mid 3rd Strike - Top 2 SF4 to USF4 - mid to top to high SF5 S1 - Top SF5 S2~3 - Bottom 5 SF5 end of life supposedly top yet Yukadon/Fujimura who was able to get top 8 with any character in any season just mysteriously stopped making top 8 once he picked up Chun Li... She is too honest to be Top, but maybe still high tier. As for your question, Capcom doesn't hate Zangief, the community hates Zangief(or psychic mid screen command grabs). There are certain characters that will just destroy the player base and make people uninstall the game. Nobody was happy with S1 Mika in SFV except Mika mains, that's just simply not good for keeping a healthy player base.

[@jessISaRicePrincess]

its the inherent problem with grapplers due to their tools you cant have a grappler be a top tier its not just a noob thing. and btw the mobility alone was crazy good

[@haidynwendlandt2479]

The issue is that grapplers are really only fun for a specific kind of player, and unfun for most other players. A good grappler is not usually determined by how much damage he does compared to other grapplers (consider Hugo in SFIV) but how consistently they can get in compared to other grapplers. This can be unfun for other players because the best place for a grappler to be is “in,” and when a grappler is in, if you can see in the video, it only take 4 interactions or so to win.

[@WHATISUTUBE]

@@haidynwendlandt2479 SAND BLAST SAND BLAST SAND BLAST Ive never heard the argument that losing to one character is "more fun" than losing to another.

[@thegoose8663]

Dang, they gave Zangief a White Wild Assault before it was invented, crazy.

[@glacierwolf2155]

Capcom should now take a lesson from Arc System Works and give Zangief a jetpack to get in on his opponent.

[@CMCAdvanced]

This is why I modernity

[@Sem-ifinalist]

@@glacierwolf2155Mech Zangief becomes their own character.

[@PhazoGanon]

​@@Sem-ifinalist Zangief with Garuda Impact

[@trancefighter]

The green hand animation in the alpha series looked so nice.

[@ReikuYin]

Quick little extra with SF2: The "Banishing/Vanishing Flat" had an important use in his toolkit. Block forcing. As a grappler, having people walk back out of his range was annoying. But anyone just holding back would get locked in block if he did it with proper spacing, putting them right in SPD range. Being able to make forward progress while locking someone in place, and it be basically invisible giving the input, if they aren't jumping as a grapler is scary. And when he's in, usually unless they have a good 'get off me' move, it's SPD city to KO. And if spaced with a zoner to catch their fireball as it coming out but not hit them? Why at high level you will see it used almost exclusively as a move that whifs if used, and spaced to do so. Or after knockdown.

[@katanamack]

I miss the “Green Hand”. I thought it was a fun spacing tool to use & I’m not even a Zangief Main.. SFlV was so good. Miss those days

[@RompecuelloPR]

SFIV with rollback would be so hugely insane

[@Professor_Utonium_]

​@@RompecuelloPRrollback is a meme

[@parkinsaw]

They probably saw it in the hands of Snake Eyes and said "Not today" lol

[@JB_CY]

I think people are just afraid to make zangief a fire bender again Or... whatever green hand is supposed to be

[@WeedSmoker69]

Green Hand is the burn from pumping iron

[@MOONWOLF7395]

​@@WeedSmoker69idc that's Canon for me now 😂

[@JohnSmith-co1zv]

Green hand is basically a Ki Ass slap

[@splintergp]

green hand is a ki move that he created because he hated projectiles

[@SlamminWolfgang]

I think that was the SFIV team's mistake tbh, I always interpreted the old green hand sprites as more of a glow

[@enamuossuo]

As kids (I'm near 40) we use to say that Zangief has the green hand move because he's from Russia and he was exposed to radiations because of Tchernobyl XD

[@philsteinberg6985]

Highly inappropriate and disgusting...

[@vegitoblue4601]

​@@philsteinberg6985 cry

[@philsteinberg6985]

@@vegitoblue4601 bro likes sonic comment rejected

[@philsteinberg6985]

@@vegitoblue4601 what are you gonna do watch more sonic? Hahaha

[@vegitoblue4601]

@@philsteinberg6985 cope

[@WrathMilten]

Honestly your third idea for why they got rid of it was one ive been thinking on for a while. Zangiefs ascetic of compensating for a lack of "magic" with rigorous effort and training is way more interesting to me than him just also being magic. Besides the jumping 20+ feet while holding another person thing, zangiefs more """"Grounded""""" than everyone shooting fire, ki, or sonic booms, and I feel him fighting against the magic marital artists with nothing but blood sweat and tears fits with the grappler stuggle to get in in neutral. Despite being out of everyones weight and height class, Zangief always feels like the underdog due to the magic factor and I think thats way more interesting than him also having a weird glowing magic hand.

[@Invariel]

So what you're saying is Zangief needs a projectile, but that projectile needs to be lighting and throwing molotovs.

[@WrathMilten]

@@Invariel respectfully, no!!!!!!

[@dojo45789]

He should have 2 projectiles he can throw a round, and its just throwing his shoes

[@BreadstixTheAnimator]

@@dojo45789TRUE yes this is a great idea

[@adud5475]

@@WrathMiltenimagine what if zangeif has metal chair projectiles

[@benefluence]

Poetically, Tundra Storm was initially DP+P in SFV, but they changed it to DP+PP because players kept getting it accidentally XD

[@ominousparallel3854]

Yeah imagine trying to do SPD and getting that ass animation where you stand like an idiot ‘please hit me’ written on you and then get crush countered to death. Not fun.

[@illgeteverythingback]

what is dp+p

[@SyRose901]

​​@@illgeteverythingbackForward, Down, Down+Forward, Punch. So, exactly the same input as Ryu's Dragon Punch(DP). It was later changed to require 2 separate punch inputs, because players kept accidentally getting Tundra Storm instead of something like Spinning Piledriver(SPD). SF6 changed the input to Down, Down+Kick.

[@illgeteverythingback]

@@SyRose901 oh so just a dp, i know what a dp motion is but i was confused bc they said dp+p which would imply you do dp and then press a second punch button after dp but ty

[@otsokarhu9695]

@@SyRose901 And only heavy kick specifically to further reduce accidentals.

[@Tsuki_Hisui]

Lariat sucks against fireballs in SF6 because it lacks much horizontal movement. You pretty have to be at point blank range.

[@gwvaio]

Yea I thought his examples were bad. Green hand is needed

[@HeDronHeDronHedron]

@@gwvaioneeded for what

[@joedatius]

@@gwvaio needed for what he has parry and DI which is the best anti-fireball in the game

[@wonderfulwardy]

Also, a super move I wish Zangief had in every game but only has in Pocket Fighter is the russian dance super kick attack. It proper suits his character.

[@HellecticMojo]

Can you imagine? A chip kill option that can double as corner carry on hit?

[@wonderfulwardy]

@@HellecticMojo Street Fighter Maker is now overdue Capcom. Make it happen! I don't want to have to resort to Mugen.

[@Wolfedge75]

Gief also had a similar super where he does consecutive stomping kicks in EX. And I think the cossack dance super was also in SvC MotM.

[@MrGulible]

​@@Wolfedge75whadd're you? Some kinda fightin game encyclopedias? Nah, I love ya. Keep it up.

[@TexasHollowEarth]

Ultra SF4 Omega Mode Zangief doesn't have it?

[@Vidya1496]

Honestly, my only real confusion is why it isn't red energy for a guy nicknamed Red Cyclone. I actually like that Zangief would use those kinds of techniques exclusively to counter fireballs, it feels very in character and I'd love to see it return in some way.

[@monk3110]

Are there any projectile reflecting moves in SF doesn’t the scarf lady have one?? Maybe keep green hand’s awkward qualities, outside of unsafe on hit I generally think that is a mistake, but anyway it actually throwing them back could be cool. YOU try getting through these then 😂

[@illgeteverythingback]

scarf lady lol

[@Invariel]

It's because Zangief is obviously colourblind.

[@Kasaaz]

Ed completely immune to Tundra Storm in 6.

[@ven3720]

Funnily enough Vega was also immune because of the angle of his kicks

[@bageltoo]

He gave up his kicks in complete fear of tundra storm

[@user-wy1et9dk9w]

Lmfao I never thought of that, imagine having an actually fully useless move because of a matchup

[@Super121830]

​@@user-wy1et9dk9wHave you heard about reflects against characters with no projectiles?

[@user-wy1et9dk9w]

@@Super121830 in street fighter 6? No.

[@Apreche]

I remember when SSF2T came out and added the green hand. I read about it in GamePro magazine. They mostly sold it as an anti-fireball move. I could tell just from reading the magazine that it wasn't any good. Amazing that all these years later, it's still being talked about.

[@missquake]

Damn I wasnt even born by several years. I didnt know what Street Fighter Was till 4 was announced in 2007.

[@Apreche]

@@missquake it’s ok. I’m just old. You’re probably way better at fighting games than I am. I can barely even do a fireball reliably.

[@EdgeO419]

it was very good in sf4, and allowed him to safely close distance in that game.

[@servebotfrank4082]

Why is it for three games in a row, Gief always lacks a consistent combo ender that doesn't require using meter in the first version of every game?

[@ominousparallel3854]

Not sure what you mean, Lariat is a perfectly good combo ender?

[@vanjagalovic3621]

@@ominousparallel3854 Lariat is extremely inconsitent and prone to whiffing or getting blocked.

[@Choom89]

Yeah, many situations require you to EX Lariat in order to combo. It can be quite risky to try without meter, unless your spacing is 100% iron clad.

[@servebotfrank4082]

@@ominousparallel3854 Lariat is extremely prone to whiffing or dropping like the other comments say. If you aren't point blank then likely you will whiff Lariat in the opponent's face and die.

[@carlosquevedo8239]

Yes, it is weird. Why can his hand become green?. I mean this is a realistic game where karate guys throw plasma balls, yoga is all about violence, people can jump 3 times their own height, gravity is optional and no one ages anymore.

[@captainmega6310]

It ain't really about realism, it just strange thematically

[@titantim]

I used to main Geif in SF4, and I miss that green hand so very much. One thing I loved to do was to space myself nicely and use the LP green hand and whiff hitting the opponent, and then command throw. It was so hard to react in time for the LP version.

[@jessISaRicePrincess]

That's why they removed it. It's to good as a mobility tool for a grappler like geif thats why in sfIV gief is a better character than the other pure grappler my boi HUGO

[@strategist9]

My take is that they should give him a costume in SF6 that's exactly the same as his default, but he's painted his one hand green. Just to dig the knife a little deeper.

[@chaosdimension6433]

I always felt that Zangief did have the capacity for having KI (or CHI) energy and that's what you see in the green hand, just not on the level of ryu, ken and chunli, he could just create a bit but not enough to send it flying in a fireball

[@Jardonius]

I believe also having it come out as fire was considered an "imperfect" use of it, as it would be more like "plasma" if the energy is projected correctly. Mans said "Nah, burning hand is good enough" and just gives em the C H O P.

[@DoomsayerStudios]

That's always how I saw it too

[@carlosaugusto9821]

I prefer him not using any kind of energy power. There are already many chars doing that. And there are other heavy grapplers who dont need that, like Hugo.

[@chaosdimension6433]

@@carlosaugusto9821 he needed some Ki energy of his own if he was to cancel KI fireballs

[@DoomsayerStudios]

@@carlosaugusto9821 to be fair, the reason Hugo doesn't need it is because he's the size of a building and has a smokin' hot babe in his corner.

[@FreddyChoppins]

SFIV Zangief was my favorite Zangief and green hand was a big part of that. Ignoring why he's able to conjure green flames, it was a superb gap closer made watching matches with him much more intense instead of just watching him zoned and footsied for ages. I know that's by design as grapplers have limited range/mobility to balance them out, but that kick-counter move they gave him in SFV was an insult.

[@Choom89]

Pretty much everything they did with 5 was an insult, I don't often hope people are fired but after SF5 Capcom probably needed to clean house.

[@NapoleonSoulo]

Tundra Storm is actually useful in a very specific situation in SF6. It can be used against a drive impact that's kicked based and it will counter it (like Juri's DI as an example). Still a useless move for the most part but it's something to keep in mind if you're burned out, pushed into a corner, and you know the DI is coming.

[@splintergp]

i think cammy DI as well but dont remember

[@EdgeO419]

Tundra Storm is such a specific move to a specific situation it feels like it was put in just to troll gief players.

[@HELLRAISER02]

​@@EdgeO419apparently they put it in cuz they liked dragon screws, but i guess they didnt care bout PR or making it good when they programmed it, so it definitely comes off as a troll

[@morzathoth919]

As someone who's pretty new to fighting games and wasn't there having you cover these things is always interesting.

[@plabcentral630]

I would normally say yes but other characters through the games have been so good when he was just mid or actually bad. If I’m correct he was only really good in one mainline SF game. So I think he deserves to have it.

[@joedatius]

the reason is that other characters dont get to delete half our lifebar off of a single grab. its the issue with all grapplers in any fighting game.

[@axeoseilez3207]

I want green hand back. I started with Sf6 Zangief and one day playing sf4 with friends I tried Zangief and when I felt the power of green hand I was salty when I realized it never came back.

[@senseiblvck]

Naw grief would he top 5 if he did. He already got buffed

[@MICHAELTUMANGDAY]

Tundra Storm is just exaggerated version of the Dragon Screw lol

[@darkshot7797]

And don't get me wrong, the Dragon Screw Leg Whip is an incredible wrestling move, one of my favorites (Specifically Hiroshi Tanahashi's Dragon Screw, but like Tazz, I digress). The issue is a specific counter move is just a horrible thing to try and implement in a fighting game. If the Tundra Storm had like 3 different versions, a punch counter into an arm drag that switches sides, the dragon screw as a kick counter that deals more damage, and a low counter into a Knee breaker that leaves the opponent close, then it might see some use. But as it stands its just such a niche move that doesn't really do anything for Gief and his gameplan.

[@Invariel]

"Simple" solution: let Tundra Storm catch and reflect fireballs.

[@alexrichard2447]

Somewhat weirded out you didn't mention banishing flat in Alpha/Zero games, SF4 is definitely inspired by that version and the possibilities in alpha 2/3 were much better than in turbo (not to mention the switch at least in A3 to a shoryuken input

[@JNPrediger]

it's depends of the ISM's system you pick. In X-ISM, the imput it's the same than in Super Turbo.

[@MiguelAnton1994]

I would like to see more about the Alpha series, SFA3 is my favourite SF.

[@Kasaaz]

Unrelated: Damn the step up to 6 for Character Models is impressive.

[@Swagtildawn]

True, but that's also relative to 5 which were notoriously horrible. But you are right, the models are fantastic in 6.

[@longschlongjohnson6470]

yeah only a few characters/skins looked good in 5. still missing all the skin diversity

[@Kasaaz]

@@longschlongjohnson6470 True. They did smaller releases of costumes then instead of trying to do one for each of the launch characters all at once in 6.

[@nikosalexopoulos6542]

Yeah, skins in 5 are bad but in 6 are the worst

[@xDjembex]

​@@nikosalexopoulos6542 absolutely false.

[@Arcadia_warlic]

I think the Vanishing Flap is perfectly in-character as a technique he picked up specifically to counter projectiles.

[@KaitouKaiju]

Banishing flat

[@Arcadia_warlic]

V/B has a sort of R/L situation, at times, and I think the same might be the case for P and T ().

[@zkosmith1662]

I have a proposition for Capcom, In exchange for Green Hand, give him something cool like a hit grab (because Manon and Ed are the only 2 characters with a hit grab Ed's Psycho Flicker and Manon's spin) or another special that can link from lights like a rolling elbow or something. Edit: Why is there an exchange in the replies about my profile picture, it's a Luxray and it isn't a furry picture. Also this comment was for fun and not an actual proposition but it would be cool if this did become an actual thought in some player's heads and Capcom if this does become a thought.

[@TheEvilCheesecake]

We do not negotiate with furry profile pictures.

[@Sen0YT]

​​@@TheEvilCheesecakeHmm, salty

[@mainstreetmafia6605]

@@TheEvilCheesecake bruh its 2024, develop a personality

[@bageltoo]

⁠@@TheEvilCheesecakeThat’s not even an anthro Pokémon 😭

[@TheEvilCheesecake]

​@@mainstreetmafia6605 paying someone to draw a fake animal with stupid colours is not a personality.

[@theturtleking2454]

I just don’t understand why fighting game devs seem to think grapplers can’t be good. “Casuals hate fighting them” but they also hate fighting zoners and JP was clearly not held back. “It’s easier for casuals to play grapplers than zoners.” Is it? Zangief requires 360 motions, the hardest motion input in the game. That’s an instant barrier to entry for all casuals.

[@HELLRAISER02]

Whats weird to me is that grapplers are supposedly part of the holy 4 archetypes, but are treated by devs and players way worse, when in theory and practice, theyre usually worse rushdowns, they both wanna get close for 50/50s but rushdowns are given every tool to do so while grapplers are given almost none Then grapplers just get more dmg off 1 guess but usually have bad oki so no pressure Then rushdowns are often given decent defensive tools when theyre supposedly an offensive archetype But then grapplers have worse neutral, approaching and worse pressure, but then THEYRE the ones who get worse defensive tools overall All cuz they got a high dmg tool thats usually only good for 50/50s, the logic just doesnt add up to me (Not to say all FGs do this but its just too common for me)

[@redhood2594]

Being the hardest input isn’t saying much in a game that’s otherwise just quarter-circles and charge inputs, which are way harder then 360s lol

[@theturtleking2454]

@@HELLRAISER02 it’s crazy cause grapplers have high health so they’re supposed to be the “tanks” but they have 0 defensive options and get folded in the corner lmao

[@theturtleking2454]

@@redhood2594 maybe it’s cause I play leverless but ain’t no way charge inputs are harder than 360 and 720

[@HELLRAISER02]

@@theturtleking2454 in platform fighters, especially smash bros, heavies got the same problem, their high weight makes em harder to kill raw, but are often given bad or easily exploitable recoveries, so in practice theyre easier to combo and kill than a lot of lightweights Your corner things so real, its odd how every other main archetype gets SOMETHING, but grapplers get like, a fast grab, ok in some games, a frame 2 command grabs a decent defensive tool, but in street fighter 5 onwards, they nerfed the speed so uh, yeah

[@bingo2underscores]

honestly i think for future installments his headbutt should become a special move. maybe when he successfully hits a projectile with it he could cancel into a forward dash? or maybe make it a rekka starter with an advancing followup similar to green hand > red focus, but, like, not as stupid lol

[@MsterRascal]

Headbutt in SF5 was always able to absorb projectiles even from launch. The change it got was in season 2, doing so would give CA meter.

[@TrophyJourney]

I've been waiting for this video for so long, but had no idea which one of you was going to make it 😂

[@youngmerc7717]

Yo JM im so glad you’re still around dude, I remember watching both you and doto on the early days of fighterZ, yall grew big LOVE TO SEE IT

[@doomtron4]

So let me get this straight, they took away his combo ender/movement/anti-fireball/reversal tool and hes sucked ever since? Color me shocked.

[@joecoolmccall]

When Geif was first announced in SF6, before fully understanding the drive rush mechanic, i thought they would somehow connect green hand to the "green" drive rush.

[@TalicZealot]

It's possible that they felt Cyclone Lariat is a more interesting way to punish fireballs on reaction.

[@temkin9298]

Well, that is true but green hand is specificly to get out of the edge of the screen. It is an easy punishable move with little damage, it is a tool for when he is furthest he can be from the opponent. If they wanted an equal move, you can look at tackles which would make more sense than a counter because he is a grappler his whole idea is to get close and begin slamming his opponent. Capcom just want a pure grappler with no aura while not giving good moves for him. If he tackled just enough to clear a fireball that was punishable at whiff that would be enough. Hell just use the same frame data.

[@KevinEDF]

I have said it before and I'll say it again, I never have played fighting games, I have no desire to playing fighting games and I never will play fighting games but I watch all of your videos, you have a gift in content creation and a very enjoyable and likeable personality, keep up the good work 😀

[@rbach2]

Green hand is not green fire - it is GREEN AURA STINK from when he reaches back and touches his butt and then slaps you with it

[@Batistadx4]

I think more options is always a good thing, and while I don't play Gief, I wouldn't mind the move returning in some way to give him some spice. I could easily see it as something similar to Honda's clap - a dedicated quick fire-and-forget projectile counter, that sacrifices most other advantages for being reliable, or even just have green hand as a projectile reflect tool. Heck, give it some EX spice and let him do a crazy once-in-a-blue-moon combo with it, like how Honda's hand install works. It'd be something nice and wouldn't upset balance too much!

[@squirrelsyrup1921]

Gief being recast almost as a Sports Entertainment wrestler is really funny, and makes him more likeable lol. He's the Johnny Cage of SF

[@FFKonoko]

Considering he was dancing with Gorbachev, he already felt a little on par with wrestling stereotypes 😅

[@Choom89]

Literally nothing in common with Johnny Cage lmao

[@kuirkiz]

His green hand should buff his grabs everytime he uses it to catch a projectile and if he has a green hand active he can slap a projectile back at an increased speed and damage.

[@MegaFootDude]

I always called it ghost hand. Ghost hand good. Bring back ghost hand.

[@titanspirit7238]

How do you see a big green hand and not call it "green hand"?

[@Konahagure]

Probably too on the nose. Ghost Hand as a description implies a little more thought was put into naming it. I can dig it.

[@mramisuzuki6962]

@@titanspirit7238ghoul and undead used to be heavily coded as green until it was slowly morphed into blue.

[@MegaFootDude]

@@titanspirit7238 It reminded me of the flaming skull ghost enemies from Zelda

[@mikeyfrance9469]

Dumbass name lol it's green hand

[@matrix3509]

The "Zangeif doesn't really need Green Hand" argument was always the equivalent of "Ryu doesn't really need tatsu" to me. Giving characters moves they don't really need has always been a hallmark of fighting games and IMO it applies to literally every other SF character FAR more than it does Gief. Cammy doesn't need her divekick far more than Gief doesn't need Green Hand. Neither character "needs" these moves, but one is clearly more abusive and degenerate than the other.

[@zkosmith1662]

I might have been because Gief was supposed to be a normal guy with no powers other than he's really strong. SF has always had the guy with no powers but he is still strong archetype like Balrog, Dudley, Alex, Jamie, Luke, (In the lore Luke has no actual powers, he can punch the air really hard and it makes a shockwave) and Laura (in the lore, she only rubs her hair to get the electricity) And seeing Gief just having a power to make a green flame appear on his hand with no story whatsoever was kind of out of place with the SF story and the green hand doesn't make one story appearance in any of the games, I think that Capcom had to unless in this game, they bring some lore to back the hand up if they do give it to him in Season 2.

[@LloydTheZephyrian]

He does apparently have lore in it in the series! Apparently, it's a manifestation of his hatred for projectiles!

[@zkosmith1662]

@@LloydTheZephyrian Oh ok, cool, Why did they take it then!?

[@LloydTheZephyrian]

@@zkosmith1662 I mean, he seems a lot more chill in SF6, so...

[@zkosmith1662]

@@LloydTheZephyrian what about V?

[@LloydTheZephyrian]

@@zkosmith1662 Got me there.

[@bqing87]

God forbid grapplers in capcom games have strong moves.

[@Ravensgale]

As someone who loves grapplers and often mains them I swear... **When grapplers get even the slightest sort of advantage or even upgrade even if everyone else gets one or if it's like Zangief being able to Drive Rush like everyone else in SF6** Everyone else: "OH NOOOO!! YOU CAN'T DO THIS! THEY'LL BECOME BROKEN!!"

[@freehatespeech6804]

The cucked SF grappler vs the chad KoF grappler

[@heksevillehero]

And then, to my utter lack of surprise, Gief was not broken OP. He was broken as in non-functional for a few months, though

[@awesomereviews1561]

Green Hand is absolutely needed for him. Since they removed it, he has been bottom tier.

[@SLow-Poke]

Love these deep dives into mechanics

[@HellecticMojo]

I think his running grab is the real mistake. It's never been good and it eats into his move real-estate for nearly zero benefit.

[@Jardonius]

I disagree in terms of SF6 though cause st.LK into EX Bear Grab exists, and it works quite well. Don't abuse it too much, but also now they're jumping out so... Yee imma do the same move in the air now for the same results lmao.

[@Choom89]

It basically exists to side switch

[@Jardonius]

@@Choom89 only the close one though, but yeah that too lmao. I never end up using that one, as the side switch from punish DI into cross up body splash into borscht is the only time I'm ever actively able to switch sides lmao.

[@samuelwest6435]

Chernobyl hand

[@atimewastersaccount5243]

Super underrated comment

[@dmgeno]

LOVE the length, really informative, looking forward to more :)

[@cosmogang]

Yo I just love this type of content. Keep it coming.

[@Sin606]

Banishing Flat was created out of Zangief's jealousy for projectiles. Look at it, it's a GREEN HAND that's on FIRE...sounds just like a person who's tired of dealing with fireballs.

[@bulb9970]

I think Green Hand was a brilliant move. They found a way to reduce a grappler’s weakness and make them a huge threat. People need to fear and respect grapplers.

[@N12015]

I feel it shouldn't be a combo ender (That's Lariat's job), but a neutral tool who is not punishable on hit. A powerful poke who goes through Fireballs but nothing more.

[@heksevillehero]

​@@N12015The EX one should at least be semi-usable as like a juggle or something (similar to Tager's B Sledgehammer in Blazblue launching opponents up if they're in the air or in a OTG state)

[@marcorodriguez8792]

If his EX Green Hand was only projectile invincible, instead of completely invincible, then that would have been perfectly okay. After all, it was intended to go throw fireballs

[@ScoutOW2]

Green eggs and hand.

[@SDhotline]

Tundra Storm was specifically for the Dhalsim matchup

[@amshfan]

Not even a grappler main, but I miss seeing yall use green hand. But to balance it yeah.. that's the tough part. Props to @wonderfulwardy for mentioning the movie version. It'd be sick if in a future game they make green hand strictly an EX move, but it doesn't give him the forward movement as much even if he recovers instantly. And just have it so it turns fireballs back, but in a direction like diagonal up or down just to prevent a jump-in or a low follow up.

[@kaiserbts8007]

So like Rose?

[@amshfan]

@@kaiserbts8007 You know what? That's damn good. Your suggestion would make sense then lorewise why his hand was green doin it. Maybe he copped some tech from Rose to deal with fireballs.

[@flamingpaper7751]

I think Green Hand could just be turned into a command normal for Forward MP. It removes the issues of having to balance each strength, removes EX Green Hand, removes it being a combo ender, and it allows it to be a safe poke and approaching tool that also destroys fireballs. And honestly yes, I think Green Hand is a weird move. I think the animation without the green plasma would be fine

[@grant5758]

I half want Gief in world tour mode to mention that he gave up using the green hand because he found it an unsportsmanlike technique. He’s definitely the type of person to give up an advantage if he feels it’s unfair to his opponents.

[@technogale]

Nah, he has no mercy and feel no remorse 😝

[@fattytan1377]

@@technogale I like to think that he just says that, for his Loyal Fans.

[@mrcuddles2199]

“The kicks not horizontal enough!” lol 😂

[@vOrbZv]

Give Gief Green Hand

[@numa2k147]

😂😂😂😂

[@stijnstolze3018]

no

[@SOSLO1324]

BUFF GIEF

[@carlosaugusto9821]

Nah

[@Dabear3234]

i dont understand why capcom keeps hurting us by putting him in the game

[@chrisludwig4729]

The Capcom balance team seems very conscious of that fact that a pure grappler is hard to balance and that the community would hate Zangief being at or near the top of the meta. Giving Gief green hand seems like a nice way out. Gief could improve his mobility and anti-zoning, while still not being a super mobile character. They could then tone down the damage of some of his big graps a bit so you don't risk "Guess for game" in every up close interaction.

[@brando402]

I’ve always wondered how spinning like a top makes a hadouken useless lol

[@MegaNardman]

His hand is GREEN. Weren't you paying attention?

[@brando402]

@@MegaNardman was talking about his lariat

[@MtnSmithy]

I'm of the camp that it's a cool move because it's so weird and out-of-character for him to have this one move that has green fire when nothing else he does has it. It's like Captain Falcon's Knee of Justice; he just has one random move that's electrical powered when the rest of his moves are fire-based and that's what makes it cool.

[@degen7278]

Its funny how older fighting games made grapplers eat good only to cruelly cripple them for the final iteration of patches or even the sequel. Id love to see Potemkin and Zangeif be actually good characters respectively. Not only when piloted by monsters like Snakeeyez lmao.

[@Jardonius]

I really do think the problem is that when they're strong, it feels worse than any of the other top tiers we've known. I have no data other than how mad people get losing to any level of Potemkin/Gief I throw at them cause "It's so scrubby" when I'm doing some of the worst fucking oki and please just wake up reversal once and I'll slow down, but no it's just scrubby and corny. Imagine if they actually had the tools, and tons of varied, somewhat easy to use 3-way mixes. Holy shit there'd be no end to the comments until it is reverted or new game comes out.

[@madpika6812]

@@Jardonius Here´s the thing, in BBCF for a limited amount of time, iron tagger was top tier and it was one of the most miserable experiences ever, cuz it´s everyones nightmare: A grappler with neutral tools and combo options. If gief for example gets to that point, in a game like SF6, which makes you deal with oki way more often than bb, it will most definitely not be fun, just due to the fact that there is a world of difference between 2 way mixups and 3 way mixups on oki (Without even starting to acknowledge the existence of shimmy and delays, which exponentially increase the amount of options to account for)

[@Jardonius]

@@madpika6812 I forgot about Potemkin's cousin, I think LK did a video on why people hate Grappler at top tier. Either way though, I think it cements the point... Grappler will forever pay for their sins because their strength is too great a burden to bear on the world when they're truly strong lmao

[@BotanistJeff]

@@madpika6812 Chronophantasma and Chronophantasma extend were the games was top tier before being nerfed straight back down to being bottom 2 in BBCF. The funniest part is that he was already incredibly strong in BBCP but they still felt the need to buff him going into Extend. I'm not an expert on blazblue but Frankentank has an excellent video on tagers history and balance through the series if anyone wants to know more.

[@madpika6812]

@@BotanistJeff You´re absolutely correct (Sorry for my poor memory, way too many years gone without touching bb in general), but yeah, cpex was the moment where tager was a menace, and it wasn´t fun, like at all

[@davebliss575]

I heavily relied on Zangief's green hand in SF4 to close the distance, nullify fireballs, and it was just a cool, intimidating move. The lariat had its uses, but nothing slapped as hard as the green hand.

[@michaelmcdermott1624]

For 18:28, I always assumed the green hand was supposed to be a reference to Chernobyl. (The stock he has powers because of radiation answer)

[@dmgeno]

I'm glad this got a lot of views, this was one of my favorite videos and I've watched it many times at this point

[@beemaack]

I think the last point you made is the best one! Green hand doesn’t really make any sense in the context of the rest of Gief’s kit. If they made a Demon Gief character or otherwise changed Gief’s backstory/character design in a future update, they could definitely bring back the green hand.

[@RompecuelloPR]

Ryu got the best donkey kick of all sf games and Ken got skip neutral tool and a easy safe confirm that isn’t hadoken, gief can’t even combo lights into lariat

[@Micha-Hil]

Green Hand is good for games where characters don't have many universal options to deal with fireballs Street Fighter 2 was like, jump and block and that's it Street Fighter Alpha had both, plus custom combos SF3 had parries of course And SF4 has focus attacks But SF6, you've got jump, block, parry, and impact (kinda), on top of Zangief's lariat, so you don't really need a sixth way to negate them

[@SillyGnome]

Zangief can also armor through fireballs with charged, standing hp

[@Jazz_Jackhammer]

Another fireball tool might not be necessary but I honestly just want a combo ender that actually works. Lariat just doesn’t cut it.

[@PipeRetrogamer]

I don't need it to stop projectiles. I need it to have something to take better advantage of cheap damage.

[@DoomsayerStudios]

Gief wasn't in 3, it would have been AWESOME if he was though

[@Swix_FGC]

His focus attack would have to be a read. His dash is too slow if you tried to punish on reaction with focus dash and would result in you eating shit. So no Focus is not viable with gief. It is an option but not your general answer like with jumping.

[@Fenrisson]

12:04 - Oh, I *love* counters. In KOF 99 I was a main Kasumi because of her moveset.

[@HiTechLoLife]

Now hear me out What if they gave EX Lariat green hands. Like has TWO green hands as he's spinning?

[@Ergeniz]

In SFEX his hands had ki on them when he did lariat.

[@austinreed7343]

I have an idea for Green Hand in SF6; make the Overdrive version of the Double Lariat end with Green Hand.

[@theedwardian]

Capcom needs to stop ironing out the nuance of their characters. It's not idiosyncratic- it's the details of an iconic time-tested character. Zangeif should always have Vanishing Flat, Ryu should have Shinku Tatsumaki and Shakunetsu Hadouken (or equivalent that knocks down) Ken should always have his 3 Crazy Kicks, Shinryuken and flameless shoryu-reppa. Classic characters should remain as they are. If you want to experiment with new ideas, put it on a new character and let them earn their own identity.

[@BubsArcadeFighters]

I learned green hand from Bear! It should be back! Its like a reach around... Great vid 🥸👍

[@Gridscape]

Green hand is such an odd move for a wrestler, and really there isn't anything similar in pro wrestling. I mean SPD is also not a real move, but it's an over the top version of a real piledriver. What is green hand based on then? My theory is that it's supposed to be like a ball catching motion, and they added the green energy (fire?) to his hand as a visual cue, to make it clear that it can catch fireballs. It would be so much more wrestling-accurate, if he would repel fireballs with a steel chair.

[@MegaNardman]

" there isn't anything similar in pro wrestling." There's no throwing fireballs in karate and muay thai kickboxing either. At least Dhalsim ate some spicy food.

[@carlosaugusto9821]

I never liked this move. The devs could have tried to come up with a totally new idea that just had the same antifireball function, and has actually something to do with him. That should have been done since SF4, or even SFA. Like, if i force myself to think of any random idea right now, maybe he could have a short running punch move (maybe similar to his Focus Attack animation) and that punch can destroy projects. I dont know if this is a good idea but it's something that i came up in 2 seconds. So why couldnt the devs have tried to refresh his moveset with something like that? It would remind of the GH's function and it would make sense for his character and moveset.

[@LloydTheZephyrian]

The green hand is a manifestation of his hatred for projectiles.

[@Gridscape]

@@MegaNardman I already covered that with my spinning pilerdriver example, as it's a "supernatural" version of an actual piledriver moves. Same applies for martial artists throwing energy balls, those are based on the ki/chi-myth, and it's a move that some actual con artists claimed they can do IRL. Pro wrestling also have moves that are portrayed as supernatural like the green mist attack, but there's nothing that could have been the origin of his green hand, and it doesn't goes well aesthetically or lorewise with his character.

[@MarcConcepcion1313]

I started my journey as a Zangief main in the SFA2 era. I feel that in the Alpha days, the Banishing Flat was a great tool for pressuring opponents with a block combo string (if you execute the BF far enough, it was mostly safe on block), controlling the space between you and the opponent (intentional whiff into 360), or use it as a meaty. It worked the same way in the 2D games he appeared in after SFA, but then things got weird when Street Fighter went 3D. My use of the Banishing Flat fell off when I saw that it was so easily punished on block and it ultimately slowed down my pace (mind you, I never got used to using EX moves because I was no longer playing constantly after CvS2). I would like to think I was a “fast” Zangief player that relied on combo pressure, corner carry, and counter moves, but that all went away when the Banishing Flat was an unreliable move.

[@FlareGunDebate]

SF5 and SF6 were the mistake.

[@alansmithee6273]

Two of the top players in my state played Zangief in SF5, and I never even knew "Tundra Storm" was a move he had. I guess that's testament to how little it got used.

[@Brian-tk5vt]

Bring green hand back! Gief as the lowest tier? Give him something to get him back up, at least to mid tier level. Even when he had OP green hand in sf4, he wasn't winning hardly any big tournaments.

[@silveriver9]

The green hand first appeared in Super SF2 Turbo. I'm surprised you didn't know this 🤦‍♂️

[@sweatzera]

isn’t that literally what he says in the video

[@PurpleDragonSpike]

Bro did you even watch the video? He literally said exactly that at 2:20.

[@numa2k147]

Bro he showed it in the vid 😂😂😂

[@theoracle2288]

Either this is Bait or you’re genuinely just stupid

[@megapussi]

🤦‍♂🤦‍♂🤦‍♂🤦‍♂🤦‍♂🤦‍♂🤦‍♂🤦‍♂🤦‍♂

[@sincerelypat]

Let Zangief become mech-Zangief from Marvel Super Heroes vs Street Fighter and let him really be a become a menace to society.

[@gooseherdez336]

And don't forget that Tundra storm originally was just dp motion+ONE punch button. They had to patch it and make it two buttons because people were executing it accidentally, and the move is so bad they had to make sure you didn't execute it by mistake.

[@Dyneamaeus]

If it's supposed to be an anti-fireball, then balancing it should be easy if you stay in that design space. Give him some kind of bonus for hitting fireballs with it, like throwing them back, or a short dash after slapping them.