Messer and Dagger: building a system out of nothing

Messer and Dagger is super niche, but also a lot of fun. In this video, I describe how you could go about trying to construct a system by building up techniques from wrestling and messer to work with items in the off-hand, such as bucklers and of course daggers.
Some notes: this basics of Messer and Dagger video is mostly about how to establish general principles to build a system of your own. The techniques Christiaan and I show are mostly just an example. If people are interested, I can of course always make a video that shows what system I would build, with techniques for different messer grips and some observations on tactics and such things. :)
If you'd be interested in supporting the channel or are looking for extra content in general, have a look at Patreon: www.patreon.com/virtualfechts...
0:00 Intro
0:24 the problem with existing sources
1:26 The methodology
2:23 Wrestling
2:43 Messer
3:44 Messer and Buckler
4:30 Messer and Dagger
5:07 Conclusions
Fencers: Christiaan and Oskar
Music:
Deeper into the woods by Vindsvept is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. creativecommons.org/licenses/... ( • Vindsvept - Deeper int... )
Celtic Fantasy Music - "Traveler" by Alexander Nakarada is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. creativecommons.org/licenses/... ( • Celtic Fantasy Music -... )
#Messer #Dagger #HEMA #Historical #European #Martial #Arts #Historical #Fencing #Historical #Fencing #Westernmartialarts #Middleages #medieval #Martial #Arts #Martialartist #Instructor #Athlete #Fitness #Fightingfit #Fighter #warriors #knights #Swordplay #machete #technique #Training #lecküchner, #history #historical #research #swordfighting #sparring #context #greatsword #montante #zweihander #knife

[@WinnipegKnightlyArts]

This is a really interesting line to go down. I think that while we have a wealth of information from the masters, ultimately we need to make the system's our own... like you can and should read the manuals, but I don't think we should only ever restrict ourselves to things that are specifically shown... there are too many variations that naturally arise in fencing that we have to take the concepts that the masters are trying to convey (rather than just the examples) and apply them generally to our fencing. It's the difference between memorizing 2+2=4 and understanding the concept of addition, and building out to understand multiplication. And that is exactly what it looks like you've done with this. Great work!

[@VirtualFechtschule]

I agree. Ultimately, the fight books are not systems by themselves. They are attempts by the old masters to teach a system through a book. This might be a small difference, but this has serious ramifications for how we approach our practice: indeed we need to internalise the information and then embody it in a way that is in effect a system of our own.

[@allengordon6929]

They wanted their students to train that way. Aren't we their students?

[@wilowhisp]

I sometimes spar with Messer and Rondel dagger with the Rondel held in a reverse grip. Every time I've experimented with this my training partner has been using Messer alone. My approach has been to spar with the Messer as usual, but when opportunities present themselves I'll bring the dagger into play. It has given me an advantage with Messers bound in range to wrestle and during a grapple. Sometimes I've been able to use the dagger to parry attacks to my open lines.

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Ah! This is pretty much where Dürer would actually come in handy. :)

[@ziggydog5091]

Filipino martial arts has one good ideas to draw from. Two principles: 1. Use two against one. 2. Always use a greater against a lesser. 3. Create a “lane” for weapons, don’t cross your hands.

[@Federico19871000]

Personally I think that messer is BORN to be used on its own... unlike side sword or rapier...

[@gabrielpottebaum5249]

I've been wanting to try this combo, and this gives me an excellent head start!

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Nice! Let me know how it goes! :D

[@Sceadusawol]

Next step: the tantalising single image from MS Germ. quart. 16 (folio 55r): how to fence with messer and "Hungarian" shield? Seriously, though. Love this. Showing the progression is really handy.

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Hehehe, that would be an entirely different extrapolation from buckler (with some more punching I guess). :P

[@Sceadusawol]

@@VirtualFechtschule I would imagine so. Somewhere between shield and dagger, I imagine.

[@thescholar-general5975]

You know the next stage is to graduate to two messers right? Embrace the darkside!

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Hahahaha, true. I do have a pair of Bauernwehre now, so that will definitely be an option. Hmmm. :D

[@ScottGrow117]

Have you given thought to messer/dagger versus messer/buckler? Whose left is whose enemy then? That’s interesting.

[@VirtualFechtschule]

It is. Theoretically, it would mean that the buckler should engage the dagger to prevent getting stabbed, but the dagger is free to engage the weapon hand. :)

[@dashiellharrison4070]

Tangential question: I noticed that Talhoffer sometimes refers to swords with a peened pommel and no nagel as messers. Do you think this undermines the idea of the "messer" as a specific weapon with a particular handle construction. Might some "messer" sources with no illustrations or discussion of nagels be interpreted as just as likely being "arming sword" sources? Another thing you might look at, since we're verging into hearsay anyway, are Filipino systems, some of which incorporate a short sword alongside knife or dagger. I remember learning a technique when I was visiting a school in Manila called the "payong" or "umbrella" that was similar to the bogen, but had a variation where you came in under the cut and stabbed the other guy in the eye with your folding knife before cutting around to hit him in the head with the sword.

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Thanks! That's something to look into. I've been looking to do some cross training with FMA for some time, but finding a sparring oriented club nearby hasn't worked so far. I should really dive a bit deeper into that soon. :) I think generally speaking Messer and Sword get switched up a lot, sometimes by accident (like the one manuscript that crossed out 'schwert', because they meant to write 'messer') and sometimes it's likely just an intentional umbrella term. You see a similar thing going on with Messer and Dussack, with the latter term slowly replacing the former as the generally accepted word for the thing you learn one-handed fencing with.

[@ArgentavisMagnificens]

Nice video! Could you write down the names of the two historical sources you mentioned?

[@drachimera]

Hi! I really think if you want to learn this you should look into the martial arts of the Philippines.

[@VirtualFechtschule]

That makes sense, as there's more of an established base of knowledge already. This is more of an exercise in reconstruction of historical combat though. :)

[@drachimera]

@@VirtualFechtschule thanks for the kind reply, as someone who knows the martial arts of the Philippines, let me just say it is very interesting viewing your channel! I have many of the fight manuals that you reference, but I couldn’t make heads or tails of them. Your channel is really helpful! It’s fascinating! Sometimes I know the move and also the terminology once I see you do it. Sometimes it’s new. In all cases I find your treatment of the original fight manual to be fantastic!

[@allengordon6929]

​@@drachimerapekiti-tirsa looks a lot like messer anyways.

[@bernardputersznit64]

WRESTLING? Well that be some bending in translation ;-)

[@bernardputersznit64]

confess!! - there was a a roman-greco event in town and you needed that practice ;-)

[@bernardputersznit64]

but I DID enjoy your stretching the conceptual fight space - i am sure the maestros would have approved 🙂

[@timhema5343]

There seems to be a problem with the 2 last timestamps

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Whoops, you're right. Will fix!

[@allengordon6929]

You have the weapons, and the individual documentation. That's not nothing.

[@gregorykelly8000]

There has to be a way to train and not train to dumby to take blows