Metamodern Spirituality | The Development of Metamodernism (w/ Timotheus Vermeulen)

[@chuckrogers4225]

It feels like I finally reached the end of the internet. The pinnacle of philosophical, sociopolitical thought so far. How exciting! I hope we can put these concepts into our everyday language, thinking and behavior.

[@keencole]

This has been one of my favorite interviews so far! Thank you to the both of you. And only half way thru.. I completely agree with Brendans point about Post Modernism finally hit the right and being exploited for specific aims of the existing power structures

[@jacob_massengale]

Developing a vernacular to describe cultural phenomena of metamodern character, then using and building on that vernacular to build a new paradigm for acting in the world is, I think, a metamodern move.

[@alexandragarrido7247]

Fantastic. So good to have a felt sense through seeing and hearing you both

[@rossvecchio3299]

I'm amazed the work of J Krishnamurti isn't mentioned in this Metamodern theory discussion.

[@saryenn]

excellent conversation and some very good points made. Thank you!

[@hellucination9905]

Another point: It would be good to integrate Tonino Griffero's work on 'atmospheres' to get a better theoretical basis conceptualizing the metamodern 'structure of feeling'.

[@chelseawright2797]

Very interesting! Happy to see more work out here to listen to - what a gift!

[@moonlitseacapeandthedesert7167]

Very interesting! Thank you both!

[@RichInk]

Remember that the multiverse is neoliberalism, the postmodern. Jameson tells us that what postmodernism in the arts gives us is the logic (the key) to the postmodern and that is all. The postmodern artists are waiting for change, not remembering that they may instigate the change. That is where metamodern artists pick up the relay baton and show a possible way to change or a way to a vision of the change beginning with the heart, interiority, and emotion.

[@adamwyeth]

Fascina interview. Very interesting ideas which I’ve been incorporating around my work and my own coined term depth literature. Thanks for this

[@PeasantByTheSouthernSea]

i didn't know metamodernists had a particular style of eyeglass frames until now.

[@adrianthomas1473]

In reality many have always been ‘metamodern’ and have seen through modernism and postmodernism. Traditionalists have always seen the value of the older ideals that have been with us for millennia. So family and the old values of nature and community have always been there - read Epicurus and the Gospels. Philosophy and religion start in the Garden.

[@papatyavanroode2329]

History of the termEdit In 1995, Canadian literary theorist Linda Hutcheon stated that a new label for what was coming after postmodernism was necessary Wikipedia

[@korsakow]

Regarding the question asked at 27:00 min - what to do, if you perceive the ship is sinking - I might have a rather simple answer: Put all available energy into solving one question first: Is the ship is really sinking? (or maybe just damaged and leaking). Because the answer to that question will lead to very different strategies to solve the problems of either one possibility (the ship is sinking or leaking). No?

[@scythermantis]

A lot of somehow optimistic critiques here, but at the end of the day... what does this new hopeful construct of 'metamodernity' actually provide beyond the postmodern critiques? I think that postmodernity is definitely still necessary, because *many* people are actually still stuck in modernity themselves... I find, for example, Mark Fisher and Capitalist Realism far more compelling now. And if Baudrillard were still around today, he'd surely be seen as a prophet, with the entire 'virtualization' that occurred during the pandemic and is encroaching more and more into our daily lives... What in the world is he talking about with 'locality'? Are people REALLY engaging more in farmer's markets, or instead are they using Doordash or having Amazon deliver groceries to their door with drones?

[@peteburkeet]

It seems to me there needs to be a major discussion of Heidegger, this is dancing around everything he was aiming for with his concept of Dasein.

[@carolsunanday2098]

Just be kind

[@hellucination9905]

I think we have to embrace nihilism further until we experience the 'absolute nothingness' / 'emptiness' in the sense of Keiji Nishitani and Shizuteru Ueda (both philosophers of the 'Kyoto School'). This will help us to overcome nihilism.

[@BrendanGrahamDempsey]

Been meaning to check out the Kyoto School. Thanks for this. :)

[@mctaguer]

I agree more with you ~minute 33 in your analysis of the Trump phenomenon. I DO think PM thought has done as you said--finally washed over the Right (add to this that sector's educational obliviousness of much of what PM is--they'd hilariously be enraged at such an accusation) equal parts because it has become socially acceptable at the lowest levels (call it the relentlessness of popular culture which, still, is quite full of PM thinking) and because it has become convenient. I think Tim's perspective only stands in light of its rapidity of action and tie to SM/modern media--the time we live in a "how things work" way, so to speak--but not a mindset. I don't think so, anyway.

[@scythermantis]

The sort of naiveté that would be necessary to say with a straight face, "The ability of us to have a poll on Twitter/social media with no barriers and have our voices heard" and think it somehow as anything to do with what is actually forming and creating society, now shows that there is still definitely a need for postmodernity, to cut across this sort of baseless status-quo-affirming ridiculous narrative.

[@purpledevilr7463]

From this I’d say that I am ‘a’ metamodernist, but not like the people here. What’s talked about here feels instinctually off. The way it’s talked about seems more like a progression of Post-Modernism, and seems like it’s rooted in the left still, but that might just be the people in the video. I view it as a synthesis between Post-Modernism and Modernism. Also more of a potentiol political program. And coming at it from a philosophically ‘right’-leaning perspective.

[@verynice5574]

I agree, especially from the person being interviewed. it feels like his view of Donald Trump is just this cartoon idea of him that you might see in sound bites in European news or from explicitly leftists media. It's a very silly take on the world to assume people who disagree with you politically somehow lack the basic capacity to filter reality in any meaningful way or that they're some acting completely irrationality. If the people you disagree with feel like cartoon characters and not fully human than odds are you're understanding is incorrect.

[@lukeskirenko]

I've been watching lots of your content. For the most part you seem to have a depth of knowledge way beyond mine and a rare subtlety/sophistication around complex topics. But when it comes to this basic schema of post modernism, metamodernism, depthiness etc., I think all that's said here is plain wrong. Depth never went away, Jameson was a pusher of a meta-narrative and therefore of modernist depth (imo of a fake kind), the only place where there was ever scepticism towards metanarratives was in certain academic circles towards certain types of grand narrative, not in the general population, and not towards all meta narratives, therefore it never was a structure of feeling defining an era. Because of this, the idea now that a new era should be defined via an oscillation between modernist and post modern attitudes, makes no sense, as these schematic interpretations of the two are wrong. Depth never went way, and therefore you don't need ironic sincerity or whatever nonsensical terminology, you just need sincerity. Words like depth are misleading, probably due to that idiot Jameson, as what he calls depth models are really reductive models, i.e. there's the idea of a deep structure underlying surface phenomena, and that this gets lost in post modernism. But this isn't really a loss of depth, it's just a realisation that following the model of physics in the hope that laws underly phenomena is a false move in domains where language can't have a Platonic stability, i.e. in most domains. All this means is that it's a lot harder to understand things. Jameson's attempt to characterise the loss of depth as an epochal character was actually the result of a reductive 'depth model' that he forced on culture, and actually this shows that meta narratives didn't actually disappear in academia, and indeed that people like Jameson didn't actually understand the developments in philosophy from the mid 20th century. From there it would probably be wise to try to distinguish different meanings of metaphysics/metaphysical, on the one hand as a philosophical pursuit based around an assumption of platonic ideal form underlying concepts, and on the other as a more colloquial term referring to emotional states or experiences of a sublime character. The latter never went away, and actually the linguistic turn actually provided a basis to better understand it, and religion and ritual in general.

[@GermaineMalcolm]

they describe hypermodernism

[@MusicMissionary]

I Think Brendon's suggestion is correct. I think MAGA is postmodern. By the time I was a kid in the 70s I think their (formerly my) demographic had mostly come to terms with the modern - but late. I think whether they admit it or not, their former anchor, Christianity, has quit working, other than as a tribal signifier. I think social media algorithms have exposed them to the cynicism of postmodernism, but they come out of more traditional culture where things are assumed to be certain. Recipe for a cult of personality.

[@verynice5574]

I think the bulk of them are simply economic casualties of neoliberalism and since they aren't acknowledge (rather reviled) by the culturally dominant intellectuals and media personalities they are seeking anyone who seems to be listening. There's a built in assumption from progressives that the pain and suffering of MAGA types is inherently illegitimate (because all the white people they grew up with were doing fine) and so there's this impulse to create some sort of pathology to describe their behavior and beliefs. In my opinion they re simply responding to their lived reality like everyone else.

[@carolsunanday2098]

Not with WEF

[@Pazzystar]

Is rick and morty metamodern?

[@BrendanGrahamDempsey]

Parts of it, especially the early seasons, I'd say definitely. Rick represents cynical nihilism, which every now and then is earnestly dissolved out of genuine love for Morty, which he is not able to justify rationally. That is the dynamic tension that makes the early seasons really meaningful and profound--the back and forth between nihilism and finding meaning beyond it through immanent relationships, etc.

[@GermaineMalcolm]

no its hypermodern

[@scythermantis]

As far as "having to take a side" is concerned, the critique that Postmodernity would have for *what is being said in this very interview* is that as a matter of fact all that is ACTUALLY happening is you are being captured by the very Capitalist machinery that you speak out against, and being, for example, obsessed with 'Donald Trump' (who hadn't even been president for a while, and never of the country this person comes from anyways) and only APPEARING on the surface to have any sort of actual positive vision or virtue, but still being a servant to the current system--how ironic. "All press is good press"... The proper postmodern critique would be to say "STOP CARING WHAT PEOPLE WHO DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU SAY" (i. e., the 'news media' or 'authorities')

[@verynice5574]

It's fine to pat yourself on the back while ignoring the media but the bulk of the voting public listens to them so not caring what they say is just lazy and unhelpful.

[@scythermantis]

*"Ironic sincerity" won't bring people to church*

[@carolsunanday2098]

Just get back on smell the roses. Get rid of elite greed marxism etc

[@huguettebourgeois6366]

Not sure that Donald Trump is always wrong. You could be a bit more metamodern when talking about him and his ways of expressions, he is of course an easy target.

[@AT-AT-AT-AT]

basically postmodernists jumping ship.

[@carolsunanday2098]

Vote trump

[@poetdemedici3505]

you lost me with the Trump BS