Miami Dice: Betrayal at Baldur's Gate

[@hethdavid]

"Sanity" "Haunt" "Omens" My thought is "Betrayal at Castle Ravenloft" would have fit better thematically.

[@aherosquest4536]

hethdavid OMG THIS!

[@Kalahee]

Even better "Betrayal at the Dungeon of the Mad Mage"

[@Owlet101]

Seeing Castle Ravenloft is an event in the game and does cause you to take mental damage.

[@gregorio5360]

Zee: "I won't see a D&D game and go 'Oooh yess!" Wizards of the Coast: "Challenge accepted" 1 month later: D&D Pandemic

[@MythicosQc74]

And the components would be super cheap because, hey! it's a Hasbro board game.

[@g8kpr3000]

They should make Formula D&D next.

[@Ender424]

D&D Pandemic = Defenders of the Realms

[@RoyAnderson]

@Mythicos There’s Hasbro, there’s WOTC, and then there’s Avalon Hill. Yes, they’re all part of the same beast, but they’re separate parts of it. In other words, this isn’t a “Hasbro game,” nor is it a WOTC game (looks like Tom didn’t know this), it’s an AH game...using the IP of WOTC...manufactured by Hasbro. But at the end of the day, it’s an AH baby. They were the ones with final say-so regarding design, rules, etc. AH doesn’t have access or rights to use WOTC artwork (that’s why there’s no cool D&D art assets). In terms of component quality, WOTC always produces excellent components that still remain affordable. AH and Hasbro? Not so much.

[@Steve_Keen]

I always stress out when you pour all the contents of the box out.

[@Busterslegestue]

I always skip it, waste of time

[@yelkhan2002]

uh, may be common sense, but ignore the two deuces above. obviously scam bots

[@apita4181]

Like Tom said: "You really need to like thematic games to enjoy playing this." If you don't like role play and you frequently go directly to mechanics without reading then choose euro games with heavily strategic gameplay. However it doesn't mean gamers won't enjoy playing this because having a group of friends that can make you laugh will really increase the replayability of this game and make it very enjoyable and fun! The traitor aspect of this game has such a build up (due to the items that you horde) that will make everyone laugh in spite from the treacherous friend who just become the traitor and the traitor with a mean face full of enjoyment and satisfaction. Good times!

[@Andromedax01]

I really wish someday they'll just release a completely fixed version of the original, this sort of sounds like it might be it, but our group is a huge fan of horror and b movies, we like D&D alright, but man... Zombies, vampires, werewolves, frankenstein monsters ? And that scenario where everybody is shrunk down and you have to escape in a toy plane ? That stuff is gold.

[@JosefFerguson]

"I really wish someday they'll just release a completely fixed version of the original" They did. It's called Mansions of Madness 2nd Edition.

[@Trevin_Taylor]

Andromedax01 the dynamics of the haunt means it cant be "fixed". The game has no way to know what items you have or what location you're in. It's not that it doesnt work, it cant work.

[@Andromedax01]

Nah, Mansions of Madness is great, but doesnt replace Betrayal at House on the Hilll. Betrayal encompasses all sorts of horror, from serious ghost stories to silly dumb camp b flicks. Mansions of Madness is all serious all the time.

[@Andromedax01]

Well maybe not "completely" fixed then, but at least "playtested enough that it doesnt keep breaking and soiling itself at the slightest provocation"

[@williamtenkate2789]

I haven't read in depth on this yet, but supposedly there is a Betrayal Legacy coming out next year. I love original Betrayal, but I do recognize that it could still use some work. Hopefully the Legacy version ends up being a labor of love.

[@williamroof3819]

I have BaHotH, and I was surprised that they went this route instead of going with the one D&D setting that just screams "Horror Fantasy", as in "Betrayal in Ravenloft". Just have any given storyline feature one of the dozens of Ravenloft's Darklords along with two-sided tiles that represent dungeon, outdoor, and underground areas. Also (if there's a way to do it), figure out a way to make it work as an optional expansion to the already-existing Castle Ravenloft boardgame from a few years back.

[@joevanwyk6096]

Thanks! I appreciate the honesty. Most reviewers sugar-coat everything or don't go in the negative points etc... I don't think any game is worth "once a year play" purchase. Great review.

[@SilverHalsen]

The monster tokens have artwork on the other side, did they never try turning it over?

[@jamielishbrook2384]

Seriously?

[@tylerlamb4108]

My twin brother and I play both this and the HILL one, we each control 2 characters (when the traitor is uncovered the the one of us that controls him turns over his other character to the other) making it 1vs3 also we add a rule for triggering the haunt, the haunt cant be activated until the is at least 25 rooms in play.(still have to then pull another raven card and roll to trigger it) anyone else modify they way they play at all?

[@bentharp9370]

We do we wont start to roll for the haunt until a good deal of the house is explored and well keep going if its a haunt weve done before or dnt particularly like the sound of

[@OrcDragon65]

I keep all my betrayal stuff in extremely obsessive compulsive order, seeing all that stuff dumped at the start of the video made my heart sink, lol

[@dukeytor]

How did they not fix pentagonal player boards and the little arrows that move all over.

[@RoyAnderson]

Because that would entail actual effort. I’m pretty sure this was a game forced out by some Avalon Hill middle manager with a “great idea.”

[@jamielishbrook2384]

@@RoyAnderson so your implying that all great board game ideas are bad and that unless it already exists it shouldn't even be made?

[@RoyAnderson]

@@jamielishbrook2384 Yes. Yes I am. Curses, my secret Luddite goals have now been exposed!

[@jamielishbrook2384]

@@RoyAnderson you do know that some of the best board games of all.time started off as greatest ideas and that by your logic there would be no board games at all.

[@RoyAnderson]

@@jamielishbrook2384 Good. Then I could live the life of peace and harmony that I've always wanted!

[@EyalItsik]

Did you record this in a dungeon

[@Trevin_Taylor]

Eyal Itsik a dungeon that connects to a backyard? If the joke doesnt make sense, dont use it. Also, the game doesnt actually take place in a dungeon. Did you not even watch the review?

[@EyalItsik]

Did you write this in a dungeon

[@Trevin_Taylor]

that*

[@Mindtwist78]

OMG i'm stuck in a dungeon with some wierd guys watching a board game review and making comments. Anybody got some dice?

[@mrunderhill40]

Weird.

[@Aikuchi.]

Shouldn't they have called them Quests instead of Haunts?

[@Trevin_Taylor]

Aikuchi the term "haunt" was established. It's branding.

[@Aikuchi.]

Trevin Taylor so is the term "Quest" for for D&D players and the players of Balder's Gate 1&2 and Icewind Dale.

[@Trevin_Taylor]

yes, and when you play DnD or Balders, you'll call them quests. but this isnt, so you wont.

[@Aikuchi.]

Trevin Taylor except they called it Balder's Gate and are directly targeting the gamer and RPG demographic.

[@Trevin_Taylor]

Aikuchi no, it's called Betrayal at baulders gate. You just selectively pick and choose your information to suit your narrative dont you. Your argument for it being "tied into baulder" could also be used identically for "tied into betrayal".

[@Draffut2003]

Sliders are too tight? Maybe I can switch the sliders between games

[@Trevin_Taylor]

Draffut2003 just buy mini clothes pins. $1 for a pack of 100. They stay in place, and won't damage anything when moved. Also, you can use a marker to color them if you want a visual distinction between the mind and body stats. Much better.

[@nickvandam1214]

I wonder if they'll review Betrayal Legacy

[@superomelet2897]

The points here are all valid, but I think the ideas of this game come together better than they're letting on here. It's not a game that's for Eurogamers, as all 3 guys here mentioned, and yet for the group that isn't really heavily into Eurogames, this is a ton of fun in my experience. What else would they recommend for players looking for a thematic game with a story that has a fun co-op experience? Tom explicitly asks this at around 20:30, and... there's really nothing. Maybe Mansions of Madness would work, but that game costs 2x what BaBG costs. The key of playing this game is that you really can't care about dice rolls. What's going to happen will happen. It's kind of like Talisman IMO, and within that, you can have a ton of fun just exploring and seeing what craziness the haunt throws at you.

[@Thiashadow]

The video was a bit dark. But the talking was nice!

[@hondito]

.... a bit??

[@Thiashadow]

Well I'm a nice guy! =p

[@williamaitken7533]

I played through four scenarios this weekend. I liked it a lot. I appreciated the rebalancing (specifically the Haunt trigger). I also appreciated that the characters are now mechanically different. I also vastly prefer the two-level approach. I hated having to deal with characters on 4 different stories of a house. It made the map needlessly complicated. The only thing we noticed is outside of our own curiosity, there didn't seem to be much reason to go to the catacomb level. There are more hazard tiles, so it's more dangerous. Maybe there are more item tiles down there? I also found that the games go by quicker, which I prefer. It takes maybe 30 minutes once you get the rules down. I agree about the tokens, but I just take it as a consequence of having so many encounter variations and needing to mass produce the game. It would be $80+ if it had minis for everything and I wouldn't have been as interested in buying it.

[@cerealheroes]

I already have House on the Hill and even though the new theme and more scenarios is appealing in a way, I'm considering taking the $40 I could pay for this and see if I can get about $45 for my copy of House on the Hill plus the expansion and apply that money towards 7th Continent. I feel as though it does the things I like about this game (terrain tile flipping, branching storyline) and does it better with a "save" mechanic that's amazing. I'll miss the traitor aspect, but I won't miss when the haunt starts way earlier than you can be prepared for it or way too late for it to be challenging (or the ambiguity of some rules they talk about here).

[@olafbuddenberg4787]

WotC does not have the deep pockets anymore. But Hasbro is behind WotC and Avalon Hill now so the components could definitely be better.

[@gatorchomp9607]

I'm fine with the tiles instead of miniatures, because at least with Betrayal at House on the Hill, I was able to get it for like $20. If you add a bunch of miniatures, you're looking at something in the price range of Mansions of Madness. If I had to spend a lot more money on a game like this, I'd buy MoM and have a better game.

[@jamielishbrook2384]

That's funny. Its 45 for this one and 49 for the original where i live

[@christopher3226]

Why doesn't Zee get introduced in the opening titles?

[@davedogge2280]

Betrayal At House On The Hill is a beautiful mess and I love it. It needs a better rule book though. This looks like BaHoTH but with a D&D skin and different scenarios my main concern is the rule book, in the original it was so bad we had to create house rules and off to BGG FAQ we often went.

[@jennythebean9117]

This would work better if the game was set in Ravenloft

[@RoyAnderson]

Or was actually designed and produced by WOTC instead of AH.

[@heinousrat9019]

i thought they changed the haunt to plot in this.

[@WarrioRAbsolutE]

I thought they replaced the haunt with hunt for this. Would be better

[@semcfadden]

So if you were forced to play either Baldur's Gate or House on the Hill, which one would you choose?

[@Muhd_Akmal]

scottemc like they said it depends on which setting you like more. But the rules and mechanic in Baldur's Gate are tighter.

[@Trevin_Taylor]

Noctis Altura aren't the rules/mechanisms the same?

[@nasaboy87]

Why can't they give us a tray for all the monster tokens that can keep them sorted?

[@mikejonesnoreally]

Check out MageKnight! They do a great job of that! (I think I'm gonna' just make a stamp....)

[@Trevin_Taylor]

nasaboy87 money

[@Mandrake42]

Betrayal at House on the Hill is one of those games I want to like more than I do. The premise is cool. I love the idea. But it just doesnt work that well and often its not a lot of fun to play depending on how things go. Its okay. Im with Tom, its like a once a year thing. Everyone at the table knows its a bit borked and we are never quite sure what we are going to get, but its fun enough to have on the table once in a blue moon. I dont own it though. I think that says everything.

[@xfoolsgoldx]

Thanks for your review😎

[@Muhd_Akmal]

You guys were a little harsh on this. Watched your playthrough and you guys seemed to enjoy it. Its supposed to be a fun game like Tom said and there's nothing wrong with that. For me this replaces the original because i love D&D and the characters actually have abilities now which is pretty sweet.

[@yogibbear]

"you have fun playing the game despite the game" - Sam DT 2017

[@candide1772]

Zee makes BAHOTH sound like an ED Wood "B" movie! :)

[@woehrle17]

I imagine Wotc wanted to keep the price close to Betrayals price to closer cater to that audience. No art on the tiles is a bit drab for sure.

[@XRay44]

Could we be getting a D&D themed Vegas Showdown re-skinning next?

[@XRay44]

Krynn Showdown.

[@Trevin_Taylor]

Wes Ray why? What's wrong with the current theme?

[@XRay44]

Trevin Taylor I was just making a joke since they re-themed Betrayal with D&D. Thought the concept of a D&D Vegas Showdown was funny.

[@Trevin_Taylor]

i can actually see that working very well. making a dungeon or castle. i just think the current theme works fine. if i wanted them to change anything, it would be the component quality. those paper mats are horrible.

[@goyasolidar]

Can't believe you all missed an opportunity to give a D&D game one Thumb of Vecna up.

[@WarrioRAbsolutE]

Should have been the hunt instead of the haunt for this. Missed opportunity

[@flood256]

purchased this and all the tokens now have art though the models are still a little soft you must have have gotten a box with a play test punch out that accidentally slipped through or wizards/avalon hill did a second printing

[@adamg4912]

But I like House on the Hill because of its theme...

[@tfangel]

I don't get the hate people here seem to have for the Betrayal games, they are the most consistently fun games we play on our game nights. Though, most of the games you seem to like have been the biggest bores at our nights. Also, learn exposure for recording these. The trees are properly exposed, not you.

[@JevousGaming]

A huge missed opportunity. Shame on Avalon Hill/WotC.

[@aligalahan]

I bought the Betrayal At House at the Hill (current release) and the component quality was horrible, really horrible. Is the quality on this one any better? I love Baldurs Gate universe

[@davedogge2280]

I heard it say that they somehow fixed the markers on the pentagram character cardboard mats but don't take my word for it. Also one of my figures was so bent it looked like she was limbo dancing LOL

[@foundafault230]

17:03 I totally agree! Do it right or don't bother. Only this week had my copy of 'Betrayal at the house...' in my hands and i was thinking: wouldn't it be great if anybody designed this in a fantasy theme... I had no idea that this game had been produced. So i was surprised to see your review. But i was thinking dark forests, some hills, like some more outside space and a feel for adventure. They had so many opportunities here: magical spells with radical effects, deeper characters, etc... but no, the had to do this cheap and easy.... Lazy copywork. And just after the expansion of widows walk it seems to me that AH has no intention of creating something new or at least improving the ideas that where o.k. in the original Betrayal. Why is it so hard for any gamedesigner to make a really good adventure/exploration game. Anyway, thank you guys from Dice Tower for your review.

[@jackal242]

I like how they put the link to them playing the game in the description... oh wait... hmmmmm. Nope.

[@help_me_papi-inactivern-7344]

It's a board game, it's meant for fun. They do not need to spend a ton of money on it, for it is a board game, not a Tesla car.

[@KH-ft4ut]

Why do they sound surprised that Wizkidz cheeped out on the components and artwork? Mention just ONE D&D themed game with good artwork and great components.

[@matthewmoos5284]

Moe Joe Lords of Waterdeep has good art and some of the components are ok. The cards at least are good quality

[@RickKoeppen]

Moe Joe Conquest of Nerath

[@KH-ft4ut]

Ill give you that. Nerath had descent artwork, but I think that might be the exception to the rule so far imo.

[@KH-ft4ut]

@Matthew Moos What the heck are you talking about. Waterdeep is probably the worst example of the games out there. Almost no artwork at all, and what little it had was almost drowned out by the rugged surface of the cards.

[@Trevin_Taylor]

Matthew Moos if it was great, they wouldn't sell aftermarket pieces to replace the ones that come with it.

[@ofcrpaul]

Did they fix the horrible rule book?

[@triplekgamer9706]

Component wise and price wise I can only say “Mechs vs Minions”. Just got mine from Riot Games. Big companies like Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast should learn from them. Despite being the new kid on the block with regards to boardgames they really did a great job producing Mechs vs Minions. BTW awesome vid as usual. Cheers!

[@Trevin_Taylor]

Triple K Gamer except WotC wants to make profit. Mechs and minions was sold for a loss. You cant use that as a standard. If that was made by any other company it would have cost $150.

[@triplekgamer9706]

Trevin Taylor Breakeven maybe but not for a loss. You’re right it’s unfair to make MvM as the industry standard but there are smaller board game companies that makes better components than WotC on a reasonable price.

[@Trevin_Taylor]

Triple K Gamer once you account for the development, yes, a loss. You do know they flew out Tom and many others to consult, right? Maybe the pieces themselves were sold at cost, but once you include the development, yes, a loss. It's called a loss leader. You sell something at a loss on the hopes of recouping the money in future returns from your new customers. This is what video game consoles do. You sell a console at a loss knowing you'll get it back in the game sales. You give away a razor on the futures of selling blades. Once RnD is taken into account, a loss. However, even if it was "break even" as you say, which it isnt, you still arent making profit. Companies arent charities. This was a marketing tool, not a game. Also, the bigger a company the higher the margins need to be. You may be able to find a small developer making a slight margin in the name of getting into the industry, but a giant company like Hasbro sees a 50% margin as a loss when compared to the potential they could have made on another product. Things are different when there are stockholders. This is not an apt comparison.

[@triplekgamer9706]

Trevin Taylor You have legit points. You’re 100% correct that “Companies aren’t charities” so Riot Games as a company is a bit confusing (maybe they have more money to burn). It’s interesting to know how things work behind the board game business but for the end user/gamer like me it all boils down if the game is worth the investment - quality games with quality components. I still love some games from WotC and Hasbro don’t get me wrong I just wish they up the ante specially when new comers are producing high quality games (yeah I know they have a massive overhead to deal with). Cheers!

[@mrfaldor]

Tom moves his head back and forth like a cat following a laser.

[@Trevin_Taylor]

mrfaldor he's between 2 people

[@saykhia]

Of course, the real troll is not on the token, but the publishers.

[@rydendm]

Wtf... Might heavy heroes have a huge advantage in this .. now all my friends are fighting for the dwark berzerker every game.. zz

[@ramonosuke]

So literally 85% the same...Pretty disappointed. They need to just make Mansions of Madness mechanism into this B-movie horror theme. Agree with Zee completely here, was hoping for something more after playing the original and getting rid of it cause of its many flaws Having game on my shelf to only play once a year is more of demerit and this is pretty much what this game is

[@pastorpainter]

Dated. Exactly.

[@Brian-qn7fn]

Wrong, wrong, absolutely brimming over with wrongability.

[@MadPotty01]

Who can take these jokers seriously? None of them look interested in being there.

[@PriNcEoFSpAcE009]

pretty lazy that they re-used the card backs and didn't even bother coming up with a new graphic design.

[@Trevin_Taylor]

Magnus Lund it's consistency across the line. Branding.

[@RoyAnderson]

Some copy pasta for your consumption. There’s Hasbro, there’s WOTC, and then there’s Avalon Hill. Yes, they’re all part of the same beast, but they’re separate parts of it. In other words, this isn’t a Hasbro game, nor is it a WOTC game, it’s an AH game...using the IP of WOTC...manufactured by Hasbro. But at the end of the day, it’s an AH baby. They were the ones with final say-so regarding design, rules, etc. AH doesn’t have access or rights to use WOTC artwork (that’s why there’s no cool D&D art assets). In terms of component quality, WOTC always produces excellent components that still remain affordable. AH and Hasbro? Not so much.

[@PopsHowTo]

Im anti social and want this is video game form lol

[@VaultBoy13]

This looks like such a lazy re-theme.

[@DekuLord]

I agree wholeheartedly. They didn't even change the stats to Str/Con/Dex/Int/Wis/Cha. That's just lazy.

[@RoyAnderson]

It is. Copy pasta! There’s Hasbro, there’s WOTC, and then there’s Avalon Hill. Yes, they’re all part of the same beast, but they’re separate parts of it. In other words, this isn’t a Hasbro game, nor is it a WOTC game, it’s an AH game...using the IP of WOTC...manufactured by Hasbro. But at the end of the day, it’s an AH baby. They were the ones with final say-so regarding design, rules, etc. AH doesn’t have access or rights to use WOTC artwork (that’s why there’s no cool D&D art assets). In terms of component quality, WOTC always produces excellent components that still remain affordable. AH and Hasbro? Not so much.

[@markusschmidt9260]

House on the Hill was a boring mess. Totally played out itself till the haunt happened with repetitive random story bits. And then sometimes, like Tom mentioned, the actual game ended after one turn or two. No wonder, Tom likes to "play this only once a year" to force-forget all of the cards. But what this game would have mostly needed would have been decks big enough, that they don't pop up again all the time. Not, that this would give the player any game worthy decisions in the first part, but it would provide at least a few atmospheric surprises. (Though I doubt, you could form any good structured narrative in this game before the haunt starts anyway.)

[@catwhowalksbyhimself]

Pretty much why I don't like. Those who enjoy it tend to enjoy the storytelling/atmosphere. This version seems to get rid of that, so I don't see this as much of an improvement.

[@drew8235]

It does kinda suck when Harry Potter Clue has better miniatures than this...

[@MoriMemento117]

The idea of the game is great, but in the first half there is no game. In the second, the weird, dated, boring, and slow mechanics might be saved by an interesting story/haunt/quest but usually not. Why does Betrayal have to be so boring - and why did they just release the same game all over again? I was really hoping they'd try to fix the core mechanics for this one... just give it a try at least!

[@AJ-nc4vr]

Really!? Those horrid arrow clips? How absolutely lazy can you be?

[@JosefFerguson]

Zee's right. The mechanics in the original are horribly broken. To the point that I can't understand how this game is so popular. Mansions of Madness 2e does basically the same thing much, much better. Maybe they should re-release Betrayal with app support.

[@NormalTheBand]

Josef Ferguson Mechanically they are similar they do not have the same feel whatsoever. Keeping in the horror theme, Mansions of Madness is like one of the greats like The Shining or Silence of the Lambs. It's innovative, it's well designed, and it's a great experience but one that many people can't handle. I can't play Mansions with my non boardgaming friends, there's just too much there for them to wrestle through. Betrayal on the other hand is like the classic Scooby Doo tv show. It's light, it's funny (oftentimes unintentionally) its an absolute mess narratively but If you go into in the right mood, it's a blast. That's the mind set you need to enjoy it. My #1 houserule for betrayal is 'no reading the rule book'. Nothing kills that game quicker than trying to play it optimally because 1. It takes you out of the zany theme and 2. If you can figure out what the hell that rule book is trying to say then you are a better man than I. Betrayal works best when you let go and lose yourself in the theme and whenever you come across a problem, just roll with it. If you can't do that than the game isn't for you.

[@tfangel]

Oh god no, that app is the stupidest thing ever. Made me never want to play Mansions of Madness, ever.

[@metalhacker83]

wat

[@JosefFerguson]

Well, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, even when it's wrong.

[@tfangel]

What's so hard to understand? Attaching an app to a boardgame is a dumb trend. The more time goes by, they won't update it after a while, and it won't work on newer devices, making the game literally unplayable.

[@Arnoutish]

This game is such an obvious money grab without any imagination or creativity by WoTC.

[@RoyAnderson]

Wasn’t a WOTC effort, obviously. Just look at some of their games compared to this. Yeah. Also, copy pasta: There’s Hasbro, there’s WOTC, and then there’s Avalon Hill. Yes, they’re all part of the same beast, but they’re separate parts of it. In other words, this isn’t a Hasbro game, nor is it a WOTC game, it’s an AH game...using the IP of WOTC...manufactured by Hasbro. But at the end of the day, it’s an AH baby. They were the ones with final say-so regarding design, rules, etc. AH doesn’t have access or rights to use WOTC artwork (that’s why there’s no cool D&D art assets). In terms of component quality, WOTC always produces excellent components that still remain affordable. AH and Hasbro? Not so much.

[@EclecticCamel]

Oh wow, this sounds like a total pass.