Groovebox Learning Curves RANKED! // Op-1 M8 Circuit Deluge Octatrack Tracker Sp404Mk2

We talk alot about features and sound quality, but what about actually learning to use these grooveboxes? In this video, I tell what I think are the hardest and easiest hardware grooveboxes you can pick up nowadays.
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[@matthewdavis473]

I have 4 kids and I work a lot so your videos hit home. I’ve played guitar for like 30 years and I have been getting into electronic production lately. I always say that when I was younger I had so much time to play but no money for gear. Now I have money for gear and no time to play. Keep making great content

[@Bass_Levelz]

This is the irony of being a responsible adult lol

[@LukeLendrum]

I resemble this comment

[@robnzombiz]

Wait did I wrote this comment? Oh no.. I have only 3 kids

[@RyanMasterson83]

I’m in the same boat 😂

[@kanduvisla]

So recognizable! I even have the same Witcher 3 experience!

[@toddwmac]

Love the "return user barrier", so applicable to today's technology across the board. Hope it catches on.

[@dmanh5144]

Music making devices like these all have unique designs that make videos like this absolutely necessary. Learning to use these things belongs in history books as an early 21st century form of self-torture.

[@MidlifeSynthesist]

Hahahaha absolutely! Musical Masoquism is the way😅

[@michelvondenhoff9673]

@@MidlifeSynthesist DEVO?

[@AaronFerenc]

hahaha

[@JayaLove]

I sold my Force for a mc707, sold it for a deluge, sold it for an iPad. Now I’m jamming away with a variety of easy to use apps like koala sampler and loopy pro. I’m a busy single mom and don’t have lots of time for learning curve or RUB.

[@ShaighJosephson]

You should have kept the Force... Nothing beats it now...

[@GuidoGautsch]

Koala Sampler is such a great app!

[@jaytee2266]

​@@ShaighJosephsonreally? I'm looking around for what to get. And considered force. That new update is pretty serious huh?

[@g1rlchild]

This video was really useful! The "return user barrier" is the biggest reason why I ended up buying a Tracker Mini instead of an M8. The M8 looks amazing, but I don't want to have to relearn it after getting busy with other things for a while. The Mini is super friendly and has lots of prompts for finding what you're looking for. So thank you for the super helpful video!

[@questionyourbeliefs]

The M8 tracker when you pass the barrier wall is insane. Don't let the learning curve stop you. It's a game changer especially with how portable it is. I can make music on it while walking.

[@paulatreides0777]

Its actually pretty easy I’m 54 and took to its workflow like a duck to water.

[@mackenlyparmelee5440]

Is it easy to pick up from lsdj?

[@emuemu8428]

@@mackenlyparmelee5440 yes. It’s directly inspired by. It’s like MEGA lsdj.

[@gorillamcguilla2275]

I bought a Polyend Tracker, fell in love with it and then decided to buy the Dirtywave M8, I got the dirtee wave in June of 2022 and it is now almost February of 2023 and I am just now understanding how to use chains! This machine is absolutely insane but once something gels with it, it feels like a major victory, like a barrier has been crossed! It's an amazing machine but absolutely no joke whatsoever. It is HARD to get started on.

[@77rgoss]

Love it! I'm so glad that you coined the phrase "return user barrier". This has been a constant issue, and I'm glad to hear that it is not uncommon. Great content, as usual! Having owned and used many different pieces of kit over the past few years, I've restrained myself from getting an octatrack (despite salivating over its capabilities). Perhaps when I find myself with more uninterrupted blocks of free time. Ha!

[@ChristopherOrth]

"Return user barrier" is a grand name for something that is crucial in picking out gear to use! I hope everyone uses that from now on. Well done! Also important I would say is a condensed fast loop of return barrier, as "usability friction", meaning, how much friction is between the user and the device on an ongoing basis, which leads to wasted time or frustration. Your words at the end are so true about how investing time into learning something is valuable, and actually key to getting out of the device what it actually promises. But some devices just won't mesh with individual users based on the usability friction. Sadly we can't accurately measure this (except in very rare and extreme circumstances!) until we have actually reached that deeper level of understanding and use. I believe this is why many devices maintain a legendary status as "oh wow so powerful!" when really they aren't, simply because they have a much steeper learning curve so less people ever accurately can gauge their true capabilities and usability friction (I'm mostly looking at you, Octatrack).

[@jamesstonehouse3448]

The new screen on the Deluge totally makes navigation easier and getting to your sample libraries simple. I've broken through some of my worst hang ups (sampling and audio recording) since getting the upgrade done.

[@bigkingsha]

Your list is crazy accurate. A few honorable mentions from easiest to hardest ...in my opinion: Korg Volca Sample Teenage Engineering EP 133 K.O. II Roland MC-707 Akai MPC 1010 Music Blackbox Sonicware LoFi 12-XT ...and the big daddy of samplers and learning curves: The notorious Elektron Octatrack. I own them all and I can say without hesitation that the Octatrack is my go-to if I want to be an audiogeneticist and atom-smasher! The Akai MPC is a fundamental and overall solid beat production lab. The MC-707 is a bit TOO deep, but sick. The rest are cute patches and buttons pinned on my vest, but the LoFi 12-Xt is a mini beast to be reckoned with. Its like the problem child of the Octatrack and the MPC.

[@cabe_bedlam]

Something worth considering for the M8 is that you can get a “demo” version with the M8 headless project. Much lower barrier to entry cost wise at the expense of slickness because it’s, well it’s diy :)

[@SonicVibe]

The best groove box for me that i didn't need to look at anything was the Volca sample 2 i just instantly knew how to use it

[@jamesbarron5590]

I recently sold all of my gear because I never had time to get good at it and switched back to another GAS inducing hobby, photography. Like another post, I’m married and have daughters so no time for music but plenty of opportunities to use my cameras. I had a digitakt, Mother-32, DFAM and various Roland Boutique synths but I did keep one thing, my Dirtywave M8. I waited too long to finally get that bad boy to sell it. I’m still learning it but having just one device has made it easier to spend time on it. If you have never tried it, I would highly recommend it. Even though I’m better at watching KZbin videos about gear than actually using it, you’ll be shocked at the sounds that come out of it. Plus the portability is awesome. Thanks for the video

[@minimal.camera]

Nice! I like this format, I'll add a few from my experience: Elektron Model:Samples - Jam: High, Curve: Low, Return: Medium Novation Circuit OG - Jam: High, Curve: Medium, Return: High Elektron Digitone - Jam: Medium, Curve: High, Return: Medium Elektron Syntakt - Jam: Very High, Curve: Low, Return: Medium PO-32 Tonic - Jam: Very High, Curve: Medium, Return: Low What I've learned from most of these devices is that having a good UI and screen is the most important aspect for pretty much all of these ratings. If the screen clearly shows where you are and what you can do there, it's all good. If the screen is cryptic or non-existent, then it doesn't work for me. Elektron does a very good job with their screens and front panel labeling. There's a lot to be said for your past experience too. I tried the SP-404 MK2 as my first time with a 404, and was totally lost. Finger drumming was easy, but no play/pause buttons? Do I really have to load samples tediously one at a time? The sequencer and FX buses just didn't make sense to me, and it wasn't fitting with the rest of my setup, so I decided to move on from it after about 1.5 months. Shame, because the size, feel, and portability on that one is top notch.

[@jon_gee]

Yo man! Love your videos! Super clean, great lighting, and you’re a smooth guy with an excellent voice to listen to. Glad you’re in the game. A writer once told me “do not use the word ‘very’…”there’s always a better way to describe it…like when you use ‘legendary’ vs something like ‘very hard’ etc. love ya man keep it!! I always dig your work!🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 Family life is a huge energy pull…we all appreciate your time.

[@augustmiles]

Appreciate this, great idea for this video! These factors are really important for people to consider!

[@TaiWyban]

Awesome way of breaking things down for the grooveboxes. I hope more creators make videos in this vein!

[@SURCOlive]

Great idea for a video. Loved it! Thanks!

[@Napoleonwilson1973]

The M8 is incredible I have taken to the workflow like a duck to water but still it is incredibly deep in it possibilities

[@mattypaxton]

having fun seeing this unfold and hearing your thoughts!

[@RhymePractice]

This note might make the MPC more fun. The Loop function. Main page Track 01>Transpose set to 1. Program 001>Warp samples> Global tab>note on. Samples tab>pad loop on. For different drum loops, I include them in the same mute group to alternate back and forth.

[@bike.krueger]

Outstanding video! Your experience with Circuit Rhythm & SP-404 MK2 covers mine 100%! SP was immediate fun when starting off, but after some time it really got annoying. On the other hand, I was sceptical about the missing display on the Rhythm at first. But it turned out to be super accessible, great fun, an instant performer with much better overview over the different patterns, scenes and projects.

[@Timber-Wolf]

I have a few of the instruments you've covered (Elektron, M8, Sp404MkII, Teenage Engineering etc) and whilst I agree with the M8 and Octatrack) I found the SP404MKII the easiest of them all to use and return to. This is probably due to the fact that I had never used a roland SP sampler before and I approached it like a large Pocket Operator (PO33ish) !! just had to figure out the effects buses and that was it. No return issues and the shortcuts seem to have stuck into muscle memory. My personal experience with the most difficult and hardest to return to would have to be my OPZ.

[@highlanderes]

Thank you for this. Confirm my expectation coming from PO’s, when I get a MKII.

[@justjoeblow420]

The two out of the ones you covered I've personally considered the most is the Deluge and the M8. But ironically I found a good groovebox solution in the least likely of places that has worked well for me, and that's SunVox on my Steam Deck I was buying a Deck for gaming anyways and now some how between samples and instruments built up for SunVox I've swallowed multiple gigabytes of storage on my Steam Deck with it.The learning curve is high with it though as months later of using it off and on I still have found and regularly figure out things I didn't know a week or two ago. Part of this comes from the sheer raw power under the hood. You can do stuff as complex as parallel effects routing and mixing for a single source and the only real limits SunVox can have is when you run out of CPU power on what ever device you are running it on, which could be a lot of things as it has a huge list of supported platforms. I really suggest any one with a tablet (tablet version is like 5$ US) or some free time to check out the PC version it's well worth a shot if you don't mind the tracker based sequencers.

[@pbrianmckechnie]

Fantastic video, great listing mechanism. Love it!

[@CaidicusProductions]

What a great idea for a video, and thus, what a great video it is. Thanks Mid!

[@Sonmz]

Thank you very much! It's a very good analysis. The three criteria are chosen very sensibly. Particularly important in my opinion is the user return barrier.

[@freezerman5871]

The return user barrier problem eventually was the reason I got rid of the Octatrak. But the M8 was something that really has gotten me going. It was my second tracker (I had the Polyend tracker) and found it very easy to grasp at first. I think it has a very strong internal logic, and the return to the M8 is very easy. It is now my preferred box.

[@willp3754]

Goes to show how people's experiences can be different. You might have gelled with the M8 right away. I don't have as much of a return user barrier with the Octatrack anymore, but I have used it a LOT. At this point I am not sure learning it was worth the effort, but I already made the effort, so I keep using it

[@jjurksztowicz]

Yep, same experience. M8 has a bit of an initial curve, but now that I know it I can pick it up after a long break and be productive within 5 minutes. The muscle memory is strong!

[@bassguitar2709]

Swing is super easy on the OctaTrack, not so much on the M8, even when you menu dive and set it, the swing sounds lifeless

[@digitalhillbilly8863]

When I retired I bought a MC-707, MPC Live 2, and Digitakt. I was shocked at how much trouble I had with the MPC. Nothing worked as expected and every step seemed to be a battle. The 707 seemed logical, and the Digitakt taught me the Elektron system after a disastrous try at the Octatrak. I did not do as well with the Circuit as you did. The total absence of a screen for feedback threw me.

[@benjaminbrodie9801]

Drum roll ladies and gentlemen...and the winner is Koala! Nice rundown of the options available. Can't go wrong with SP404 or Novation Circuit.

[@JayaLove]

Koala is dead easy. I have it on my ipad and LOVE it.

[@BobbyGeneric145]

If koala made a physical unit for 10 grand I'd buy it. I use koala to edit my samples before moving them to the sp404mk2

[@BrentODell]

Re: Witcher III, I hear you there! I've played the first part of the game SO many times because, as you said, it's really hard to drop back in after being away a while! :)

[@subiesojourner777]

I have an M8 and yes it can be a bit, daunting, but this is one amazing little box. Tim at Dirtywave continues to roll out updates, the latest being 3.03 (I think) and this little beast keeps getting better and better.

[@bassguitar2709]

lack of easy Swing was a NO for me, sure it does lots of stuff, but that UI is painful

[@cjlewis79]

3.2.7 now. It’s such an amazing device that keeps expanding.

[@TheMikeHaskew]

Your SP MKII take makes me feel so much better! I loved my SX and sold it as soon as they announced the MKII. Then took a year looking until I could get one. In the couple of months I’ve had it, I just feel stuck. Same as you, I can use it like the SX, but everything else seems like a mystery I can’t catch on to.

[@petert7807]

It definitely dosnt make sense. I had a similar experience, best tip I can give is look for the illuminated buttons and little arrows on the screen to guide you to all the extra features.

[@dreamdealer]

The Octatrack is just like Elden Ring, the hardest one of its field, but the most rewarding by far. Great video.

[@aikighost]

I totally disagree, the octa is awkward to learn to use and even when you master it, its "meh" for anything other than glitchy shit. The MPC one/live/X are much better (and actually deeper) in basically every way for most genres of electronic music.

[@dreamdealer]

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

[@nebulance4289]

MPC is a much different market then the Octatrack. I don’t think anyone getting an Octatrack sits there and goes “you know, id rather use the computer with drum pads.” The octatrack does stereo resampling, master sequencing, drums, master effects and performance changes. While its true the MPC is deeper, its so much more like just a computer, in a way that directly clashes with the workflow of the average Octatrack user.

[@aikighost]

@@nebulance4289 mpc workflow is just better in every way, the FX are better the plugins are great, everything about it is superior.

[@nebulance4289]

@@aikighost I don’t doubt its plugins are better. I’m saying that this video sold the octatrack as a “groovebox” which it really isn’t, and didn’t include the MPC because it is quite literally a computer with a proprietary DAW, they’re not really comparable. Those people that are using an Octatrack, really aren’t going to use it in the way you use a MPC, especially one of the huge MPC X models.

[@rorz999]

The main thing this video taught me is that everyone is different. I learned how to use the M8 completely (aside from tables) in about an hour. To put it above the Octatrack in terms of learning curve is insane to me. I'd honestly say it's easier to learn than the OP-1. I did have prior experience of using some trackers though (Renoise, Polyend Tracker)

[@ericleary5931]

This matrix schema is spot on! applies to everything Software, modern John Deer Tractors, aircraft, and media production tools. I have been thinking about this a lot in terms of the Digitakt and the Wavestate of late. ... don't always like your videos but this one is so cogent to my own experience and analysis it is uncanny. I have also been concerned about "configuration debt" a lot lately to the point of maybe naming a jam that. Another commenter mentions something like 'user friction' that I think is very similar. Good video.

[@Farold_Haltermeyer]

Your greatest video ever, thanks! Keep updating it :)

[@cjlewis79]

I wanted to like my OP-1 but I struggled with it and had to sell it. :( The M-8 though, wow for as complex as it is, it is REALLY fun to play with!

[@henrytheworst]

It’s nice to hear non-linear thoughts about gear. It makes sense after using or watching videos of gear that some of these are central instruments rather than extra tools.

[@ryejack]

Thanks, loved the video! I'm fairly new to using groove boxes, so this sort of video is incredibly useful. On a whim, I purchased a Woovebox and I'm waiting for it to arrive. I would love to know how the Woovebox hold up to your rating scale.

[@AlexIsASeraphim]

Thanx mls. Much appreciated. As a beginner dwelling in the budget (shallow) end of the pool, I found the circuit tracks had the least initial friction compared with the mc 101. That experience has led me to start saving for a multitrack mixer / recorder that has midi like the tascam 12. I'm thinking it would be easier and less fiddly to initially record the stand alone groove box then layer on additional sounds later. Apologies to the hardware jam community who think this is blasphemous.

[@magnificent_gaming]

Dude, this is a spectacular video man. Exquisite, I want all of them but the one I'll be starting with is 404MK Roland

I was smiling when you talked about the Octatrack 😊. Despite many years of frustration I would never sell it. Tried mc707 as an alternative but that thing is totally without logic! Returned to Octa fast. Didn’t find the op-1 that easy to learn though. Had it twice but never learned it.

[@jeffryarchambeau5441]

I really agree with your ranking of the OP-1. I first bought a 1010 BlackBox based on specs, but didn't really enjoy making music on it. This summer I finally got a used OP-1. Now my BB is the "undo" for my OP-1. It's pretty easy to bounce tracks back and forth, for about the same total cost as a new OP-1. Jorb gave me the courage to buy a used OP-1, seeing that it's totally repairable.

[@08iwndavidturner82]

What a great comparison video. It’s like your in my brain. I love the approach you take with rating all the drum machines. I do the same with a lot of things I’m going to buy. I have an mpc 1000 and set up a live jam rig with some synths my pain come when I would then need to bounce my tracks onto the daw to create an actual track. Not touching the daw for so long usability for me was hard to return. So for the past 6 months I have found myself just using the daw as I’m not super good with making my own synth patch’s say for example I needed a nice piano I didn’t have the synth on hand so having a daw and some ready to go drums I can create pretty good now. Never thought I would go back to the daw for so long. Now I’m workshopping ideas on how I can set my synths up to be able to turn on at a switch an create fast. Maybe I need a stand. Limited space and 3 kids. Time is valuable and most of the time I make music in the laptop while kids are watching movies or playing outside. So portability is also something I have noticed I need. Anyone got any tips or help. Let me know. :)

[@davidsanfeliumarco9664]

Love your channel man!!🖤

[@pn_oio2891]

As a relativly new synth user I can confirm that the OLED-upgrade in the Deluge ist really a gamechanger and simplifies many things dramatically. Things have suddenly names.. 😄

[@willp3754]

I have the old Deluge. Maybe someday I will get the screen upgrade but hard to see the benefit. I wish Synthstrom would work on improving the firmware instead... there are requests people have been making for years, like being able to midi learn the master fx

[@RJ_Eckie]

I need to get the OLED! The 4 hard-to-read characters are… not ideal 😅

[@Michael_Smith-Red_No.5]

@@willp3754 I have both the old and new display types, and the OLED is a lot easier to read at more angles, and in varying light conditions. Plus, it's nice to see what I'm actually doing without trying to remember cryptic abbreviations.

[@willp3754]

I'm sure the OLED is better, I just don't read the display enough for it to matter

[@cademosley4886]

Just to give an update to this comment, the Deluge's firmware has been open sourced now, so now there should be a whole community of modders that can add features over time, and you can even mix and match new features that you like.

[@mrobinson8190]

Mighty fine video mate!

[@davidmaynor2855]

The RUB is an inspired term/concept! Great content once again.

[@MkUltra612]

I enjoyed this, thanks for the video! Love the concept of a Return User Barrier. Deluge is the only one on the list I have, and I've been using Jamuary as an excuse to dive a bit deeper and learn it better.

[@RussMullins]

Fantastic breakdown!

[@LillySchwartz]

Great list and very useful indeed! I don't have a single one of these boxes, precisely because they all seem deep and like I would forget how to use them all the time. The Return User Barrier is definitely a thing for me because I like to go in bouts of 1-3 months on one instrument and see what comes out of it, then I switch things up and learn something else. I might not come back to it for half a year and by that time it will all be long forgotten again. I do think the OP-1 might be a good fit for me too, so I'll keep that in mind for the future.

[@stretchbrah5627]

Excellent, eloquent, and perfectly paced video as usual! Your content always makes me feel like just sitting down and making the things I enjoy. While I have none of the boxes you used (except a headless M8) I do have an EMX-1 impulse buy, and an MPC One. While I don't know if you've ever had an EMX, I am interested to hear your thoughts on where the MPC fits in. I have the Bible, and the Manual, and even after working through both I find myself in the indexes more often than I'd care to admit (mainly for small things though) Stay awesome!

[@avrilcadabra]

I get that all the time with games. I think each person is a bit different with what makes sense to people. I find mpc/force pretty confusing but the M8 was pretty easy to pick up. But I was fluent in hex and used a few trackers before over the decades. After using the m8 daily for years now its burnt into my soul I don't think it would be possible for me to forget.

[@C0llinsW0rth.]

I really enjoy this style of video; it's a meaningful conversation to have when there is a lot of GAS out there in the world and a ton of choices. I would have liked to have seen the EP-133 on this list as well, because I do see it as a better device than some of the other ones; regardless, this video is awesome and I thank you for the content. Take care & be well!

[@MidlifeSynthesist]

Thanks so much!! See you soon🤟🏻🤟🏻

[@mrrafsk]

My experience with an op1. Was different, I was on it most days for 6m. I found the Deluge and Rythm easier to initially get on with that the op-1. Great video. Thanks.

[@rayderrich]

High G.A.S. combined with low R.U.B. seems to become the scariest combo ;-) Great talk again Sir.

[@MidlifeSynthesist]

Lol, yes it does😅 thanks for watching my friend!

[@crowsynth]

Circuit Tracks for me was the most fun out of the box I had. I am now using a deluge and like you said, the "return barrier" is high when you return after a few months, but the synth engine sounds great and the options feel limitless.

[@entropyroshan9846]

M8! I hear ya man. I ran up the hill and I’m still climbing but I’m all in. Really nice center piece to a collection of micro synths that fit in a small bag but pack a big punch (Paripi destroyer, NTS-1, Soma RoAT, Intech Studio EN-016 combined with a Kaos pad)!

[@thenamelessastronaut]

never got my hands on an octratrack and I don't think it will ever happen, but it's always nice to see people playing around with it. only a few things are more interesting than seeing people playing this dark souls of music gear device.

[@thesnipecatcher116]

I only own the Octatrack and M8 of the boxes you mentioned. I owned a Digitakt before the Octatrack and still found the learning curve to be a nightmare! Ironically, I did manage to get a full track done by the second day. I made the classic blunder of trying to learn everything right off the bat. The first two weeks I wanted to set it on fire and throw it off a cliff! Now, I still think it’s one of the coolest machines ever invented and the RUB ain’t bad at all for me. It’s so worth the struggle. With the M8, I knew the learning curve was going to be tough as I’d never really used a tracker. Turned it on and had no idea what I was even looking at. Found a great tutorial by @electronisound that was just on the subject of loading samples, making a beat and resampling all the drums onto one track. He was slow and deliberate, going over and over important functions. By the time I finished the tutorial I had a good working idea of the basic functions and have written tons of music on the thing. Which brings up the point… How often do you get finished tracks you’re happy with on each groovebox? Not just pattern jams with mutes and unmutes, but real tracks your pleased with? For me, the M8 rates very highly. So easy and fun to make full, complex arrangements. Genius device. Octatrack is no slouch there as well, plus the Octatrack’s midi sequencer is great, I think

[@bassguitar2709]

OctaTrack after you figure it out is incredible, I'd never switch

[@Highfiber123]

Smart, really valuable perspective

[@rhughes808]

I like the concept of the return user barrier. It's a real thing.

[@VJFranzK]

Good discussion. I still think of Electribes (1 and X more than 2) as being the easiest machines I really got to like! (As well as the RC505 Looper and Kaoss Pad 3) MPC is also easy to get started on, but a full DAW in a box to learn later.

[@auntjenifer7774]

I was worried about learning curve on a big ticket item like these so I ended up getting the MPC2 live as it ticked all the boxes and seemed easy to use ! The was true indeed, I figured out how to use it right out of the box and it is my first groove box synthesizer drum machine !

[@samprock]

Great overview and inventing RUB is totally brill! (I also called it DSI - dust collecting index, sorry Sequential :) concept is great for rating s/w plugs as well. My short list (after returning/selling bunch, incl. not Akai and Rolands) is: 1. Maschine+ - instant jammin’, flat learning curve, cus all labeled and screens are large, so the pads. If I do not play for a while because busy with life, it will be the one I return to turn on. So this is studio/home choice of groovebox. DAW controller for Live and instruments within Live. Also one travels with me to beach vacation, totally awesome for that. Sitting on coffee table and I can have a private moment …. because it’s a vacation. 2. OP-Z is my pocket and always in my backpack choice. No time to start a track. Learning curve you would think should be high, but you don’t feel it. Basics are right there with buttons and LEDs to make an Instant Tune. I would separate what it takes to make simple ide and get around device from more advanced tweaks. OP-Z is Cup of Ramen (good quality, expensive one lol). Phone is your screen and a manual, if you need anything. Speaking of a phone. 3. Phone is my other instrument. You always have it on you. Korg Gadget is too handy, deep with sound design AND building a full song. I have my projects from day one of its release, no memory card, num of project or number of tracks limitation. Some tracks I literally make for years. Not because it’s hard, otherwise I like some tune so much, so composing them across months and years when inspiration strikes to add a layer or tweak something. Too many of my tracks, even if eventually exported to .alp and played with analog synths or guitar, were conceived on my iPhone. One point about phone as groovebox of course - there is never lack of new apps, AUv3, and updates that can satisfy your GAS. It’s WAY cheaper to get something new with few ducats, comparing to computer plugs or expensive hardware. XKey Air or Keystep everyone has, or Launchpad or any midi-controller, work perfect with Gadget or a mobile DAW of your choice. Good overview and subject mate! I feel music corps making new groveboxes will decline, settling, so it can a good guide for new musicians, who were lucky to miss the race buying ‘em all, now can just watch reviews and pick one :)

[@1000Crickets]

"Return user barrier"! I'm writing this one down. Great video, as usual 🙌

[@MidlifeSynthesist]

Thanks so much my friend!! Hope it catches on lol

[@gmcenroe]

Also as a mid to late life synthesist I remember when I first searched for the OP-1 because it was sold out everywhere. Luckily I found one in South San Francisco at a DJ equipment shop and rushed there to buy it. Still like it and its great portability. Other items that you covered that I am interested in is the Polyend Tracker and maybe some day the Octatrack. Thanks for your rating of these devices.

[@RemyDAgostino]

Learning curve is also influenced by how enjoyable it is to go deeper with the instrument. I think that needs to be accounted for in some way. For me, the Circuit was very easy to learn and it was also very inspiring to play with all of it's increasingly complex features like parameter automation, sample flip, delay transitions. It really made me want to master it. I feel like by comparison I was always forcing my way through tedious workflows while staring at a tiny screen when trying to go deep on the op-1 with features like resampling, sample slicing, recording in reverse, etc. I wonder how that differed for you with instruments like the M8 and Deluge.

[@GreatistheWorld]

Great video man! Starting with pocket operators seems to work out or it doesn’t. I loved trying to learn it up to a point but working on a device that’s 100% memorized button combinations was a real problem for me. It still stays in mind, and I hope it can revisit my po-20 and work it out. I finally shelled out for a used OP-1 a few years ago and kinda hate to say it, but it was almost everything I thought it would be. It’s a joy enough to just explore and play with that it really eased any tension/overconcentration around learning, and the screen isn’t just helpful, it’s super clear in the way it conveys information.

[@raytbrown2]

Totally agree with the SP-404, wherein the learning curve and return barrier were the exact reason I got rid of it after 4 months as I just didn't have the time or energy to continue to learn & use the device -- no matter how cool it is/was for me to have one. Plus it chewed-up batteries, so I can't really call it "portable".

[@willswitchcraft]

Interesting perspective.......cool upload.......BTWthe new screen on the Deluge is a real game changer in so many ways - a massive improvement.........and if you think you had a little trouble remembering things before, you should upload all the new, Open Source, Community Firmware update.....loads of improvements to all sorts of things, from Grain FX, finally some serious Digital Delay parameters, a whole new Grid for working, and much, much more...................

[@NoiseCommander3DS]

I remember watching this video when it came out. Now I am watching it again, having recently purchased the M8. The learning curve, I did not perceive as harshly as you, I found learning the buttons and everything literally felt like playing a game, a good one. It may be advantageous that I am no stranger to trackers prior. I love it thus far, although I would like it to have a screen allowing to play/record multiple drum pads without connecting a midi controller.

[@MusicianParadise]

Return User Barrier - genius ! This term will be all over HW design handbooks from now on!

[@noisetheorem]

On the Octatrack: Ive had one since they were released, and I still figure out new stuff. The button layout on the MKII makes it MUCH easier to remember how to use it from session to session.

[@martinthompson2584]

Awesome comparison. I still find the Deluge the best for immediacy. The basics are just so intuitive, though it's extremely deep. If it just had something like the MC101 synth engine in it, I'd never use anything else.

[@TheNormalUniverse]

I like how you point out the return user issue. To me that’s the biggest problem. Easy to learn something when it’s new. Harder to pick it up again after a few weeks

[@petecolombo]

I think context is everything. If you're familiar with tracker workflow, the Polyend Tracker and M8 aren't that mind blowing. However, if you've played hundreds of synthesizers, the OP-1's tape workflow is still infuriating.

[@DarkLord61636]

I love the return user metric! That's been a frequent issue for me as I LOVE jumping around from groovebox to groovebox. My main is the Deluge, but after the LED screen announcement, I set it aside telling myself I'll dive into the deeper features after my upgrade. Many months later & I'm still months away from my upgrade, so I pulled it out feeling inspired, only to realize I couldn't remember very much of anything. You've got me more interested in the Octotrack, though! I'm considering returning my MC101 [I love it, but it just doesn't really seem to fit into my workflow, other than the volume sliders which I love]. Maybe I'll impulse buy an Octotrack after!

[@MidlifeSynthesist]

I believe Octatrack has a bad rep because when it came out there was little info about it except for the manual. Nowadays you have the @synthdawg manual and the @ezbot channel, it’s way more accesible! Don’t fear it! Cheers my friend!

[@georgesbahia]

Magnifique très bien expliqué et souvent on oublié comment ça marche. Merci

[@thomasm8077]

Awesome vid. I would say that the Polyend Play has been the easiest to learn. And it is for sure a pick up and Jam once you load some samples in.

[@a.krawion1872]

Great video topic!

[@wellurban]

The OLED screen on the Deluge definitely makes it much easier to navigate songs, samples and synths. It helps a bit with other parameters, but surprisingly I’ve found that it makes little difference with the synth engines, which I always found relatively easy to navigate (as long as I have my glasses and can read the labels by the pads!). The bits where I’ve struggled when coming back to it are the fine details of the arranger and especially working with audio clips and the looper. Those rely on some very specific button combos that need constant practice to get used to. It’s like Ron Cavagnaro says in his excellent “boot camp” videos: a little practice every day will eventually make it second nature, but that gets tricky if you have lots of gear and limited time.

[@willp3754]

Ron Cavagnaro's deluge videos are so helpful, he shows excellent examples. The print manual is pretty good but his demonstrations are even better

[@mezz3036]

Great roundup. 👌

[@MidlifeSynthesist]

Thanks my friend🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻 cheers!

[@wondergupta]

Thanks for this vid - really useful info! It's taking me a while which would be most useful for me. Is the MPC One also comparable to this list?

[@RikMaxSpeed]

So many more groove boxes you could cover. Personally I really like the Roland MC-707 which has high out-of-the-box jammability.

[@revbaxter3681]

This is a brilliant concept. Thank you for doing this. I just started into the world of sampling and I'm looking at synths as well. I went with the volca sample 2 for ease of use. I don't care about the limitations. I'm a busy guy and I just need to get to it when I have that small window to work with. I don't want to make my first synth a volca keys, but that instant playability is tempting. I've also thought about the Korg wavestate. I know that the Korg is way over my head, but the presets are so well done that I think I could work pads, synths, and piano into a loop performance with the one machine. Any thoughts? Can you do one of these on synths as well?

[@tablaninja]

Omg. Return User Barrier! Finally a word for it!! I suffer from That with my OP-Z and M8! Big time

[@GavinLyonsCreates]

Hey thanks for the video, also working Dad here too. I'm using the Circuit Rhythm, I love it because it's portable. I can bring it on the train with my old Mac Air 11" and some earbuds and I'm good. The Circuit learn curve is easy enough, making scenes is still a bit fiddly, loading packs is slow. How about the Polyend play ?

[@richardsaffle]

I’ve never used any of these devices, so I won’t argue w/ you whether your list is “correct” or not. But these were your experiences, so if somebody enjoys your channel, & sees your workflow, then they can get a feel for how that device works. & I appreciate that, being a general novice w/ synths/groove boxes…

[@fuentessetneuf]

Great video. I’ve had my eye on the Syntakt for awhile but I’m having a hard time peeling away from the Model Cycles. I wonder how those two would be tested with this approach.

[@RedShade151]

The EMX1 was my first groovebox and always stuck around while I sold others that came and went. It’s probably one of the most frustrating to learn, especially with its very strange limitations, you kind of have to know it’s insides and out like the back of your hand to get it to work. But the whole thing became muscle memory. I find myself loading sets off the memory card without thinking, and then wondering how the hell I even did it. The menus somehow follow the same way, I forget how I got there, but still did if I don’t think. Super hard to produce on, but really fun to mess around with. The vacuum tubes make it super good for sawbasses on it’s own.

[@VJFranzK]

What's so difficult? I really like that control panel with it's dedicated knobs! Let's keep asking for a similar Electribe 3!

[@brasersworld]

The Octatrack was and still is my first and only Elektron device. I studied it for months before I purchased it. At the store I got to switch it on hooked up the some bad ass monitors. At the time there were no Elektron specialists. Even not in training. It seemed like I was the only one who knew how that amazing box worked. So I switched it on after putting some samples on the card. And I never got any sound out. Of course I managed to make it work eventually. - But this is by far the hardest machine to get sound out from scratch for me. - The learning curve is very high. - When I don’t use it for a while there’s always something I don’t remember. I think you are much smarter then me 😄

[@dubdelay]

Great video. Thanks.

[@OllieLoops]

Hey. Great video. I wonder where an MPC would fall in your ranking system.

[@bux77]

The MC-707 is one of my faves as it was really quick to get going and very intuitive for me to use.

[@aikighost]

I really like the mc707 its just a shame they made the synth editing so awkward. Needs more knobs :)

[@RichardGroulx]

Good call on the user return barrier. I've sold a lot of gear over the years because of it.

[@JayaLove]

Same

[@eienzero]

you know "it happened", when you understand 101% the approach to this review and terms used, life/aging they say 😮‍💨 great video BTW

[@chrisb3389]

Good analysis. My only official groovebox I've tried is my Roland MC-707. That ended up being a wise choice, as it's pretty easy and intuitive to get up and jamming and crank out ideas faster than I would on a more complex box or a DAW. While being quick to learn the basics, the deeper functionality definitely takes a while to master. Things like using the drum+compressor tracks or the master multi-band compression or scatter effects or automation definitely take a deeper dive. I do feel that once you learn something well enough and step away for a while, it's not too hard to remember how you did it. I tend to take notes to help my old man brain just in case. As tempting as an MC-101 is for size, I could see how the smaller screen and sub-menus might make it less intuitive. My other sort-of groobebox is a 1010music Blackbox Sampler. Because it is more limited in depth, it is sometimes less intimidating to just jump on and come up with something cool. The only downside is that when they overhaul UI elements with a firmware update, you kind of have to throw some of the former screen/menu memory out of the window. Either way, being able to multi-sample 707 tones into it and play on a much smaller device is cool and it handles longer samples that the 707 can't. To relax the MPC fans out there, I assume you left those off because they are samplers first with groovebox capabilities. It also might be the lack of buttons, as most grooveboxes you mentioned are button intensive.