The Enneagram is weird

I realize that a lot of people find the enneagram helpful. I don't deny or doubt that. But it has other issues that are worth being aware of.
Full uncut answer here • 20 Questions episode 4...
My website BibleThinker.org

[@wigglesworth3717]

You don’t need the enneagram, you need the Holy Spirit.

[@mandodelorian4668]

Truth!

[@markmooney5662]

Amen to that Doug Mosley. Gilly wife of Mark

[@john316godlovedtheworld3]

Amen

[@viviennejordan215]

Amen Brother!

[@JS-gz2nw]

The second great commandment is to love your neighbour as YOURSELF. The enneagram helps people to know themselves….hmmmm seems pretty important to me.

[@scrooge1913]

It's helpful as a tool for self reflection and introspection in the same way that knowing and identifying your love languages is. Totally agree with everyone in the comments that it's not good if you form too much of an identity around it but I found it really useful in that it helped me understand how I processed information and emotions and how that differed from others. It ended up being that many of my closest friends were people who also had the same enneagram type number as me, which was an interesting bit of perspective about what type of people I clicked with most.

[@andrewcramer9200]

It isn't good for that either. Psychologists, Christian or not, have given all the reasons why it DOES NOT tell you anything about how you "process emotions" etc. It's misleading.

[@viviponce4537]

Marcia Montenegro has great articles on this topic and a book called “richard rohr and the enneagram secret” Her website is christian answers for the new age. She really speaks out against it and how Christians are falling for this. Also, there are plenty of other youtubers and podcasts that cover this topic in depth.

[@joanschutter5863]

Yes! She is the authority on this New Age teaching. I hope Mike will read her book(s).

[@veritatemdicam4585]

@@joanschutter5863, agree!!

[@meepmoopmeep1]

It’s fun to take the quiz , but it’s weird how people let things like Enneagram and Meyers Briggs totally define their identity.

[@toolegittoquit_001]

Why expose yourself to evil ? Its roots are in automatic writing, that is contrary to Scripture just as a start

[@NC-oq2mp]

Exactly! They alter themselves to fit this category. I've looked into MBTI, it's not a personality equivalent of one size fits all. It gets convoluted and confusing the more in depth you go (loops, shadow functions, etc). You literally have to be in a perfect state of being in order to get accurate results. I don't even look at it as a personality test and more along how your brain gathers, processes and uses information. As far as what I can tell of the enneagram is that it's based off fear and how one handles specific fears. So they're more useful than astrology, but they're no where near the penultimate of psychology either.

[@viviennejordan215]

Our Identity Is In Christ Alone.

[@meepmoopmeep1]

@@viviennejordan215 so true

[@chrisarbour]

It's weird that anyone let's anything including religion and politics their identity.

[@DeidreaDeWitt]

I asked a therapist about it once and he said he thought it was legitimate as a personality analysis, however, it wouldn't be anything more or less than knowing your MBTI or something along the same lines. So knowing your enneagram doesn't bother me. What's more alarming is the church using it as a blanket counseling method for no real reason. I have never heard the church talk about MBTI, so why suddenly are we talking about Enneagram?

[@lkae4]

Bingo. Chances are that the majority of your church leadership and membership believe in the MBTI to one degree or another. Worldly philosophy has already laid a foundation in the church for a long time. And the therapist was dead wrong. Enneagram is useless, just like the MBTI.

[@claire_leah9274]

One word: marketing.

[@andrewcramer9200]

A large survey of psychologists called the Enneagram the most discredited "tool" available. Jay Medenwaldt dedicated his doctoral thesis to eliminating all use of it entirely. In 2001, one of the world's top psychologists (Willem Hofstee, from the Netherlands) said any registered psychologist caught using it would be risking penalty for malpractice 😂

[@HH-lr2zt]

Thank you for talking about this! I go to a Christian college and a bunch of my classmates are borderline obsessed with their Enneagram number. It's just become a zodiac sign for Christians. It's even made it's way into our curriculum. The required for all freshman behavioral science class made everyone take the test and write about the results.

[@ElleeZee289]

That is really disturbing. Please check out Remnant Radios episode about it. They give evidence that it’s not even scientifically valid. Maybe you could pray about looking into it more and trying to persuade your school administration against it. Let the Holy Spirit lead you as to what is best.

[@chrisarbour]

@@ElleeZee289 it's funny how you guys use science to prove things you disagree with but as soon as it's used to disprove your religion you're up in arms. Don't use science when it's convenient for you.

[@ElleeZee289]

@@chrisarbour I agree with you that it is important to be consistent, and I personally do strive to approach issues with intellectual honesty and consistency. It sounds like you are possibly not a believer so, in my humble view, there is nothing that should stop you from using the enneagram.

[@AimeeHope89]

Ooooo no. I'd have failed that class rather than do that assignment. You're not going to force me to do any weird occult stuff when I'm paying to receive a Christian education. I've been down the enneagram road before, and it's just paganism that leads to more paganism. This is why it's so important to stay vigilant in study and prayer, and to be bold even among believers. We have to keep each other in check, which is why we need fellowship! Don't run or ignore it when our brothers and sisters are using this stuff - warn them of what they are getting themselves into. It's dangerous, and leads people to fall away from God.

[@definit1on119]

Jesus is Lord!

[@CharlieKraken]

Amen!

[@jessahgase6919]

Amen!

[@qqma4791]

Amen

[@Hypothetical-Being]

No he’s not, he was just an ascended master. One of many.

[@avoidedline5932]

If I’m not mistaken, the reason it’s attached to Christianity is this: the guy who came up with it fabricated a story that it was created by Christian monks in the middle ages specifically so that Christians would except it. Pretty sure that’s why, feel free to check me on it and if you’re somebody who’s really into the Enneagram then please, please hear me. This is not something you can take lightly, It’s bad. We’re not just not just nitpicking or majoring in the minors, etc. Read Acts 19:19 and do as they did. May the Lord of all grant you peace

[@rmason5477]

Sure is bad, many get decieved

[@RalphNC09]

How is it bad and you can't take it lightly? It's a personality quiz. I'm here cause someone mentioned it on an MTBI video. I find it really weird that Christians are upset by questionnaires while at the same time, they care very little about how they're treating other people or how they act in the real world. Met a lot of people like that at my old church.

[@RalphNC09]

Yep. Just read Acts 19:19. Not sure how that applies here. Explanation?

[@andrewcramer9200]

​@09RetsamEdalb simple, the origins are from multiple men who claimed they were channeling spirits. Carl Jung, Oscar Ichazo and Claudio Naranjo. Even secular psychologists call it fortune telling and divination.

[@Jptotalfitnessny]

"Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:8

[@brandicook910]

When the moms group I was part of started pushing this it was a huge red flag. It feels like zodiac type junk to me.

[@viviennejordan215]

Men are as Much Involved as it was made up by a man.

[@RachelDee]

SAME in my circle.

[@Abeliever000]

​@@RachelDeesame. I was into Numerology before being a Christian and this enneagram thing is no different!

[@bumblyjack]

The Enneagram is interesting IF you view it as a description of false gospels people want to believe rather than the truth. (Ex. Type 1 "I'm perfect", Type 8 "I'm powerful", Type 3 "I'm special", etc.)

[@rebeccabrown8908]

You may be onto something there!

[@vanessaverner8480]

Type 1. Is the perfectionist Type 8 is the challenger Type 3 is the achiever So you got the names of the personality type wrong. This is a tool that helps people achieve better versions of themselves. Each personality type has strengths and weaknesses. The enneagram is a very accurate test. The reason is you are suppose to fill the test of how you historically have handled situation.

[@calebrcrawford]

Hey folks, A. “Satanic panic” over the enneagram is overblown. It can be a take or leave tool along with other personality-type test. Just because a KZbinr you like says it’s new age doesn’t make it so. B. Christians who are making their identity the enneagram, are cringe inducing. It’s a fad that already peaked a couple years ago and will prob come back around in another 15 or so years as these things are prone to do. Dividing over the enneagram is not worth it. *RR is def a false teacher.

[@wigglesworth3717]

It’s totally a new age practice. I was into that and other forms of divination before I was born again. It’s definitely trendy.

[@ElleeZee289]

Hmm, I would not equate it to satanic panic where there was conspiracy about child abuse and animal sacrifice. There is factual evidence that the enneagram system is not actually useful except maybe as a tool for self-reflection if I’m being generous. The bigger issue is that IF you hold the Bible as your ultimate authority, it is easy to see how it is contrary to Biblical teaching and therefore should not be embraced. The Bible also encourages us to address false teaching.

[@cmcgrew98]

Thumbs up. Totally agree.

[@cmcgrew98]

@calebrcrawford

[@andrewcramer9200]

Psychologists, including ones with no religious background, have defined it as "fortune telling and divination". Why is that hard for you to grasp? It's not overblown, it is a worthless "tool" and rejecting it is the correct call intellectually, not just spiritually. It. Is. Useless.

[@MarySmith-ry9cu]

I was studying it for a while. It doesn't have a strong foundation in anything let alone Christianity and it's varied authors don't agree on everything so it's quite subjective. I felt the Holy Spirit lead me to renounce it and its influence in my life.

[@danmorgan3685]

Describes studying something. Finds out about the contradictions and disagreements within the community that supports it. So rejects it as too subjective. Then completely abandons reason and discounts own work by giving all the credit to an invisible force. Apply some of that reasoning to your own beliefs sometime.

[@raining_trees]

The creator of the enneagram literally admitted in an interview that he came up with it by channeling. Demonically inspired 100%

[@elephantshrew6304]

Same with MBTI. While I never cared too much about the enneagram, I did find MBTI to be interesting, but when I heard about the channeling stuff with the creator of it and now I hear it is the same with the enneagram. Christians have nothing to do with darkness and the demonic. Flee from such things. We find ourselves in Christ and nothing else. No MBTI type, no enneagram number, no zodiac sign or anything else. We are Christ followers and that is more than enough!

[@sophyamary]

@@elephantshrew6304 Where did you hear that about MBTI pls? I only knew about the enneagram to be occult related.

[@ALRinaldi]

@@elephantshrew6304 Yeah, where's the info about Meyers-Briggs?

[@Window4503]

@@ALRinaldi It’s tied to Jung whose most well-known psychological work, the Archetypes, was channeled. The man has several other occult works like The Red Book. Meyers-Briggs is based on his channeled work. The field of psychology doesn’t even view the test as a legitimate personality examination anyway, so it’s not much of a loss to reject it.

[@elephantshrew6304]

@@Window4503 Yes, this. Thank you. It is tied to Carl Jung and his affinity for the occult. God is not holding back good from us. A quest for “hidden knowledge” only leads people to the devil. God gives us everything we need and the devil wants us to doubt God’s goodness. Jesus said that his truth is simple enough that little children can understand and that it is something the proud can’t understand because of their pride. The Bible warns that those who claim to be wise became fools. God and His Word are all we need folks. Stop the senseless wandering through the wilderness and trust God for a change haha.

[@LGJiG]

It reminds me of horoscopes in a way. It tells you who you are, and I wonder if some people can get caught up in fitting in the box you were given instead of fully being who God created you to be. I don’t like it.

[@littleneedlesfarm6387]

Yes! This! It totally reminds me of horoscopes!

[@viviennejordan215]

"Instead of Being who God Created You to Be," Wise Words Sister! Hopefully people will read that and Know that things like this are the great deception, and Turn from it.

[@RachelDee]

Observing my friends and doing a little looking into it gave me that same gut feeling that I have about horoscopes. It's an ideology.

[@andrewcramer9200]

I'm amazed people fall for it at all. A popular enneagram site included this gem about one of the numbers: "this type prefers to spend their free time doing things they enjoy." Guys. Seriously. Only one number likes to do stuff they enjoy. The rest of us prefer to do things we hate. 8/9 of the population hates what we're doing in our spare time. I've been licking doorknobs in roadside motels, how about you?

[@LGJiG]

@@andrewcramer9200 🤣 I agree! I felt the same way about horoscopes! Several aspects were very generic.

[@two4.six8]

The first time that I came across the enneagram, it was connected to a psychiatrist I used to work with who is now in Federal prison. He promoted a lot of weird numerology connections with it. I thought it was crazy and steered clear of it. Then, the next time I heard about it was ten years later. My pastor was advocating everyone do it as part of marriage enrichment and personal development. I just about fell out of my pew. I couldn't believe that he would be connected to this crazy thing. There are a lot of people in the church who are gaga over it. I think it's basically as accurate as a horoscope.

[@wigglesworth3717]

Yes and it’s clearly a form of divination.

[@breannapatterson5335]

@@wigglesworth3717 exactly

[@iamthisiam]

People are quick to stigmatize what they do not understand. If your faith lies firmly in the Lord, then it would do you no harm to eradicate your naive generalizations by looking into it.

[@viviennejordan215]

You don't realize the harm, not having The Holy Spirit to Lead and Guide You into All Truth, You are deceived. All these things like horoscopes, Crystals, and the enneagram are to lead You away from God. I used to be into all sorts, and beliefs, when younger, in my spiritual search, and maybe I would have at least a curiosity about it. Thank Goodness, that The Lord Saved me, by sending His Son Jesus to die in my place, He Paid for my sins. When we Accept Him as our Saviour, we Trust and Rely Only on Him, we Turn and Repent of our sin, are Reborn Anew. Love and Forgive Your Fellowman Also, All these things Will Get You to Heaven, if You Accept Jesus as Your Saviour. There Is Only One God, our Father, our Creator, and He Loves Each and Everyone of us, But He Hates sin. That's Why He Sent Jesus to Save us. By Jesus death, Resurrection and Ascension into Heaven, where He Still Intercedes for us, Prays for us, we Have the Hope, The Promise, of Eternal life with Jesus, Instead of the 2nd death in the lake of fire. Eternal death in hell. We Don't want Anyone to go there. If Hitler had Accepted the Gift of Eternal Life by Trusting and Relying on Jesus, Accepting Him as his Saviour, he Would Not go to hell. Watch Ray Comfort of Living Waters, to see How people get a Wake Up Call as to their sin. People say they're a good person, until they Measure themselves against God's Law, The Ten Commandments. We All Fall Short of The Glory of God, we are All sinners. But God Forgives, He is Rich in Mercy and Compassion, when we are Contrite, Sorry for our sin, and Turn against it. We become a New person in Christ Jesus, and Don't Want to carry on living in sin. God Bless You, Lead You and Guide You Into All Truth, The Only Truth. Jesus Is The Way, The Truth and The Life, there is No other life. People have Wandered Far from God, that is Why there are So Many things that people believe in. Man (Humankind,) leans on His own understanding, Therefore has No knowledge or understanding of God. Is tossed and turned every which way, in different belief systems. Jesus is The Light of the world, The OnIy True Light in this dark world. Pray to God to open Your eyes and ears to The Truth, the Only Truth. The rest is deception and deviation away from God, away from Jesus Saving Grace. God Bless. You were sent to this video, out of curiosity, God Can Move Mountains! Probably someone or some people are Praying for You, Because They Love You. We as Christians Love You. God Loves You, Jesus Is the Truest Friend that You could ever have. The Only Reliable Friend to the end. But there won't be an end, if You Accept Him as Your Saviour, as Life with Him is Eternal.

[@rileywiley268]

@@iamthisiam looking into is is what turned off a lot of Christian’s.

[@ogloc6308]

The eneagram looks kinda evil imo

[@kimberlyjennings618]

Yeah definitely- it’s channeled material. They lied and said it was ancient but in interviews admitted it was recently channeled

[@criticaloptimist7961]

Oh? How does it look evil?

[@CaptainDaAwesome]

@@criticaloptimist7961 idk their reasoning but it resembles a pentagram to me.

[@morecoffeeNOW]

@@CaptainDaAwesome yes! I think this as well. Just distorted enough to blend but not fully hide, if that makes any sense at all. Just how it feels to me.

[@ogloc6308]

@@criticaloptimist7961 like a pentagram

[@CharlieKraken]

I would like to state that it's really not "fine" that a lot of people like it. As you stated, it's connected directly to heretics and other such non-Christian spiritual false teachers, and is a foot in the door for hippy dippy new age heretical (and even satanic) nonsense. We must have zero-tolerance for those within the church engaging with such things, it must be warned against at every angle and opportunity. So, with all due respect, it is not remotely "fine" that a lot of people like it.

[@KoBaC]

Exactly what I was thinking. It is "fine" in the same sense that some Christians will consume content that is unholy. They are adults and free to do that. However, it is not fine when that dark material is being linked up with the church and Christianity indirectly. It should just be plainly called out.

[@kristyong4386]

Yeah I agree, it's definately not fine at all.

[@paulafields3711]

Is it just me, but I've always thought of it as being tied to the occult. I agree. It's not ok.

[@paulafields3711]

Is it just me, but I've always thought of it as being tied to the occult. I agree. It's not ok.

[@williamrice3052]

I think that's why Mike made the video to raise the flag and say it's not ok and weird for Christians to be involved with - that's the key take away point anyways

[@merryohler3730]

Mike, please do a teaching on the roots of the enneagram. The types were originally acquired through auto-writing, via a demonic entity.

[@jtothed81]

Bro that's New Age, mystic, occult crap. Not cool man.

[@Not_a_Pro360]

I like the enneagram, but no personality theory has ever gone through “Rigorous Analysis of personality types.” They are just an a scale of use and I see the enneagram as a little useful to my life.

[@conservativemama3437]

it's more than weird--it's occultic

[@robertdouglas8895]

No one is totally wrong or right. Weird doesn't mean wrong. It means you don't understand it as does occult.

[@wigglesworth3717]

@@robertdouglas8895 regardless, Christians have no need for any form of divination.

[@robertdouglas8895]

@@wigglesworth3717 I agree. Praying for stuff,:money, house, spouse, or a job are all forms of divination. They are signs that God is agreeing with you that they are what you need. We don't need physical signs that God agrees.with us.

[@RalphNC09]

No it's not. It's a personality test. And before you say anything, I'm not even into Enneagram. You guys don't even know wtf "occult" means. It's a buzzword you can toss around to make yourself and others feel like you're going on a righteous crusade against anything you find weird or disagree with. Occult is actually magic, fortune telling, mediums, etc. Not a fun little quiz. Should you obsess over it? No. And that's what he's pointing out. But it's nowhere near occult.

[@Hypothetical-Being]

Lol

[@sherlockhomeless7138]

So, you think it's fine that a lot of people like it, but at the same time you're very concerned about it?

[@ReborninYeshua]

Can't be a people pleaser and a GOD pleaser Mike. How do you think Jesus or Paul would have addressed this?

[@han.nah.]

@@ReborninYeshua a little grace would be helpful

[@ReborninYeshua]

@@han.nah. It was said in love,and is true.

[@NoOneToNoOne89]

The Eneagram is just a new age version of the pentagram.

[@renren1641]

Pentagram predates christianity, keep critiques fair

[@heartsonfire2458]

@@renren1641 so does Molech worship. Evil existed far before Christianity.

[@renren1641]

@@heartsonfire2458 a pentagram is literally just a shape. It was used to study math by the Greeks far before christianity.

[@P.H.888]

@@renren1641 before The Foundation of the earth Jesus Christ was crucified ✝️ the solution to humanity conundrum before we even realised we had a problem, sin death. So Nothing predates Christianity ✝️

[@PhoenixDeliveries]

I always thought of the enneagram as strange and not Biblical. Never did any extra research. Interesting to know a little bit more

[@joburton1629]

It’s a distraction from from recognising we should be living in him being transformed into his likeness; not encouraging people to find their “ true” selves finding self is the problem

[@viviennejordan215]

Amen to that! We Should be Losing our sense of self, and Becoming More Like Jesus. Less of us, More of Jesus.

[@btagg2024]

It's incorporating the new age into christianity.

[@viviennejordan215]

New age is in the Church already, as well as witchcraft. Pray For Discernment in All things Brothers and Sisters, to be on our Guard. I used to watch channels that I turned from, Thank The Lord! Discernment! Astounding How Many are deceived, think because they're in a Church, that they are true followers of Jesus. We have to Pray for Discernment In All things.

[@btagg2024]

@@viviennejordan215 Agreed!

[@HappilyAnonymousGirl]

I think taking a personality test is like seeing yourself in the mirror for the first time and noticing what you couldn’t see before. Everything about you was already there, you just didn’t notice until you took a look at yourself. Taking a personality test just helps you to take a look at yourself and notice your tendencies and habits. The ones that have been there your whole life. Taking the test didn’t change anything about me, because the test answers were based on who I already am. That being said, I took a personality test based on the Myers Briggs test. Idk what’s up with the enneagram, but I just thought I’d throw this out there because we all have different personalities and the basic personality test just helps us understand each other a little better. Nobody’s shaping themselves into the results… the results are based on who you are already…

[@andrewcramer9200]

You're very wrong.

[@justinj_00]

It's very easy to take too far and therefore something to be wary of, but it can also be a valuable tool for some to help interact with and connect with people. I'm on the autism spectrum and being able to categorize people by the ways they connect and interact with people has helped me MASSIVELY in my ability to engage with and understand others that I really struggled with before. It's helped in both ministry connections and just friendship connections, as it helped me recognize patterns in the way people with different personalities are approaching things and therefore avoid confusion and misunderstanding I think it can be used with discernment solely as a way to help understand otherwise difficult to grasp differences in personality for people like me

[@lillockey04]

The Enneagram is white magic. RUN!

[@newreformationapologetics4953]

Amen

[@CharlieKraken]

Exactly right

[@LeavingBabylon_]

Good to know, I had never heard about it. Thank you Mike for your concern and relaying that to us.

[@smolderingtitan]

Thanks for introducing me to Richard Rohr. I hadn't heard of him before so will be interested to learn more about him.

[@infernal_device2604]

@Mike Winger, check out the episodes Cultish did on the enneagram. Super dark stuff!

[@newtoheaven]

The timing of this short is so perfect for me since I’ve been doing a lot of research on it. I have been wondering what you would think about it. I have so many thoughts, especially since I’m familiar with occult teachings, and none of it is positive. I wish I could say I have some good thoughts since I know plenty of people who are so nonchalant about enneagram being a good tool, but I can’t stand behind it. 1.) It is not a neutral tool. It has a strong spiritual origin that draws more of its kind of spiritism, and 2.) my analogy: You wouldn’t use a hammer to fasten screws into wood joinery. That’s not what a hammer is made for. I guess you can hammer a screw into the joinery, but you end up ruining the wood and weakening the joint. There is not solid information that a hammer is a great tool to use as a screwdriver. This may be a weird analogy, but the purpose of the enneagram is not to learn about personality. It is made to connect to the “spiritual plane” to transcend to the level of god, a tactic of self-actualization, so you know as much as the highest being. When made into a “Christian” tool, the same Christian buzz words are used which contributes to the appeal. However, these terms have completely different definitions than what is biblical.

[@andrewcramer9200]

You are spot on. A writer who as far as I can tell is atheist, Patrick Vermeren said of the Enneagram that a woman once tried to defend it, even after being told why it's nonsense, that you shouldn't throw out a tool just because it needs to be sharpened (or something to that effect), and his response was, "if the tool can't do the job at all, it should be disposed of completely". 😂

[@DiscipleofChrist101]

It's.. just a means to categorize. It can provide insight into personality traits and patterns of behavior.. It's nothing to be afraid of. It's not really creepy.

[@andrewcramer9200]

It's been proven repeatedly to be bad at that. It is a glaring example of what the Bible calls the wisdom of this world, which is foolishness to God.

[@auntielaura2937]

Thank you. Richard Rohr is all we need to know about the enneagram. Have had these grave concerns about it for years

[@DentGal83]

It’s based on occultist stuff… I have a bunch of friends who are really into it, and definitely intertwine it with Christianity. Stay away!

[@blade7506]

personally it’s helped me realize some of my weaknesses and what i need to improve on, i view it as no different than mbti. by no means are they Christian teachings, and in no way should they be worshipped.

[@jagabe9680]

it basically empirical or theoretical observations or people, nothing theological and spiritually about it.

[@annajoy5252]

I wouldn’t say there’s nothing spiritual behind it though…if you look into the history of the men that developed it-they were occult practitioners. I think it sounds innocent enough, especially when influential Christians casually mention it as being no big deal, but personally after learning about what influenced it, my conscience and the Holy Spirit tell me not to partake in it.

[@michaelalejandro6056]

All of you is weak yes! Thats why You need the Holy Spirit !

[@Window4503]

The MBTI is also based on channeled occult information, Jung’s Archetypes to be exact.

[@andrewcramer9200]

Did it? Or did it barf out some nonsense and, because you were receptive, you believed what it said about you to be true? Psychologists have warned against this, it's not just Christians being Satanic panicky. The Psychologists who promote it tend to be weirdos like Helen Palmer, who claims to have psychic powers. It's useless. It didn't show you anything.

[@robmangeri777]

The enneagram seems to focus on what makes a person a victim and we have victory in Jesus!!! I can relate on the positive end to several of the number types like the fun loving side of 7 and the deep thinking of 5 but those qualities certainly have merit outside of any “coping mechanism function” so I feel no need to seek “help” in regards to them. I only need the transforming power of the blood of Jesus to bring me from death to life in Him and to follow where He leads me!

[@RachelDee]

Okay, so being in suburban evangelical mom circles, I saw this play out. A lot of the women liked it because none of them had ever been to any kind of productful therapy. Enneagram gave them a taste of validation, identity, vocabulary, etc that they weren't really getting through their old, fundamentalist, slap-a-Bible-verse-on-it-like-a-bandaid worldviews they grew up with. They even ate up books offering insight for their unique relationship dynamics in their marriages. It also offered a new interesting idea or activity for them to connect with each other over. And then some of them went further and further down the rabbit hole centering everything else around it as a worldview. Eventually, the Enneagram sycophants literally left the friend group over the ideological differences and the others realized it had gone too far in being treated as something more meaningful than it should have been.

[@UnderTheFloor79]

The enneagram has a different definition of sin and salvation built into it. It's not compatible with Christianity.

[@viviennejordan215]

Do people take your test paper, and then enter it into a computer? I wouldn't be surprised. Someone said it's about fear, Well, they could play on people's fears, brainwash etc. Very Disturbing!

[@romitsu968]

Repent of your sins and believe on Adonai Jesus Christ, believe in your heart that He has died for sins and rose from the tomb on the third day and let the Holy Spirit within you, and you shall be saved. - Jesus the Christ loves, praise YHWH our Elohim - Evidence for Jesus Christ’s existence, crucifixion, and disappearance from the tomb (He rose from it): The Lord Jesus Christ did exist, gathered disciples, and was crucified and went missing from the tomb. To argue about wether He was taken from the grave or rose from it, is an argument a skeptic can make. Because well if you disregard the eye witness testimony of the disciples and there willingness to die for Christ, and humans won’t die for something they know is a lie, when Peter is pinned upside down to that cross, he could have said that it was a fake, but He didn’t because it wasn’t, what care would he have about death in this world if he knew for a fact he had assurance of a life in another, Jesus Christ did rise from the tomb and is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Now the evidence for the Lord Jesus Christ’s existence really isn’t hard to find a multitude of non-Christian scholars and historians mention Him within 150 years after the time of His life. One such is Tacitus a Roman historian who reported on emperor nero’s decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed rome in 64 AD. Tacitus wrote: “Nero fastened the guilt ... on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of ... Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome…” In this Tacitus makes reference to not only Christians, but Christ calling Him Christus and confirming the Gospels going on to say that He suffered the extreme penalty (crucifixion) under the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilate, which like I said confirms the Gospels narrative. Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians. Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of Christianity. At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians: “They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food - but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.” This passage provides a number of interesting insights into the beliefs and practices of early Christians. First, we see that Christians regularly met on a certain fixed day for worship. Second, their worship was directed to Christ, demonstrating that they firmly believed in His divinity. Furthermore, one scholar interprets Pliny's statement that hymns were sung to Christ, "as to a god", as a reference to the rather distinctive fact that, "unlike other gods who were worshipped, Christ was a person who had lived on earth." If this interpretation is correct, Pliny understood that Christians were worshipping an actual historical person as God! Of course, this agrees perfectly with the New Testament doctrine that Jesus was both God and man. You may have heard of the scholar Flavius Josephus who mentioned James as being the brother of the Lord Jesus Christ, which matches what Paul said calling James “The Lord’s brother” and there is another document that Josephus may have written which goes: “About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he ... wrought surprising feats.... He was the Christ. When Pilate ...condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared ... restored to life.... And the tribe of Christians ... has ... not disappeared.” Now it’s up to debate wether this is the entirely original document of what Josephus wrote, or if a Christian had edited it. But regardless he wrote about the Lord Jesus Christ. Wether it was negative or positive like the possible document is. Anyways there are many other statements, documents, letters, and writings of all sorts from the ancient world talking about the Lord Jesus Christ and there is not one question if He was a real person or if He was crucified and went missing from the grave. That is clear as day, He is a real person, was crucified, and went missing from the grave. And He did rise from the grave. And for more evidence of the Lord Jesus Christ, there’s the Bible and you see there is no evidence the Bible is corrupted, a lie, created by the Roman government, folktale. It is the recount of the Disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, now wether you want to believe it is up to you. And what profit was there in spreading Christianity, All the early Christian suffered persecution, beatings, and were killed. Another Scholar reported that James the Lord’s Brother was thrown off a building and then stoned to death for spreading the Gospel in Jerusalem. These people went to great lengths even giving their own lives for the Adon Jesus the Christ.

[@lauriecollins7312]

Your dead and sin and needed a Savior. Enneagram is about “you”. Spiritualism or gnosticism. Read your Bible. Apostle Paul teaches 1 Corinthians 15

[@alongwistfulsquiggle8440]

As someone who used to really be into personality-type stuff, I will say that if you want to look into the enneagram you need to have discernment. If you struggle separating the good and bad within a thing, I'd recommend just staying away. Plus, every personality system starts causing in-groups and out-groups if held too tightly, so even if the thing didn't have problematic elements, it would still be better not to delve too deep. If you do go deep in the Enneagram it starts feeling like an alternative gospel, talking about stuff like ascending to a greater self. On a surface level it's more about understanding passions and how those passions get warped into something negative. That part is fine and potentially useful on a practical level, but once you get to the integration part I'd say just go read the Bible to see what God has to say about the subjects instead. The Bible says a lot about peace, love, ambition, shame, etc., and it's going to offer a far more stable foundation than whatever the enneagram has to say. I think the most alluring part of these tests is a longing for self-discovery. We want to know who we are and how we fit into the bigger picture. The cool thing is that God knows us far better than we'll ever know ourselves, so if we follow who he says we are, then we'll arrive at a much better place than we will on our own. It can be frustrating because we like to have all the answers on our own terms, but I guess that's what faith is all about.

[@andrewcramer9200]

The problem is that it is also really bad at that whole passion thing you mentioned. People have covered why all over the internet. Jay Medenwaldt, Patrick Vermeren, Jennifer Fayard (sp?), and others. The mechanics are deceiving, and rely entirely on the Barnum Effect. As Medenwaldt pointed out in one of his blogs on the subject, a survey of over 100 psychologists called the Enneagram the most discredited "tool" on the market. I legitimately can't figure out why anyone would ever waste time with it.

[@alongwistfulsquiggle8440]

@@andrewcramer9200 When I was into that stuff, I came to it through MBTI. A lot of people seem to come to the enneagram through that. Given that MBTI isn't that great either, the research isn't going to be much of a factor in their interest. That crowd just isn't the type to pay attention to the science in the first place. It's a bunch of people, generally a bit confused or naive, trying to find themselves or at least find language to talk about themselves. They look at something, it sounds true (whether it is or not), and they latch onto it. It's good that you bring it up, though. I hadn't heard of any of those people before. I was leaving that world around when Medenwaldt heard about it, from what his blog says.

[@fluidicrift]

So Martin Luther a known heretic started the Protestant church. Henry the 8th kicked out the church just so he could get divorced and marry multiple times and wrote his own version of the Bible as a result but sure go after the madman who thinks the triangles are more dangerous than two historical figures responsible for so much suffering and war.

[@AimeeHope89]

I was brought to the enneagram early on when I was into new age stuff. They didn't tie it to Christianity at all, and the stuff it led me into was not good. I think we need to stay away from that, and things like it. It doesn't bring you any closer to Jesus, or help you grow in your faith. Stick to the Scriptures if you want to learn about yourself. It's all in there.

[@tylerworrell4446]

I've always lived under the impression that no internet quiz can accurately determine who you are as a person. I find that the usual outcome is that the personality type it gives you is such a broad category that it can apply to most people or it simply goes off of what answers you give. It's not revealing some deep knowledge of your personality that you never knew about. It's basically just reading the answers you consciously gave and telling you what you already view yourself as.

[@andrewcramer9200]

Correct, that's the Barnum Effect. It then attaches a bunch of conjecture on to those answers that clinical research has shown time and time again is unreliable.

[@MyHomeYourHomeOurHome]

Hahaha. The commercial before the video? Enneagram personality test

[@razare1984]

Before I was a Christian I was very much into Enneagram and MBTI. My conclusion on Enneagram, specifically, is it is a fear-based analysis of personality. It has worthwhile elements, but likewise you shouldn't identify with your type. True enneagram teaching has you round-out your personality... which is best done with God and the Holy Spirit. A person who improves their enneagram tests differently, which basically means, they're less controlled by fear. The Enneagram personalities reveal a root fear that different personality types have. A lot of personality is rooted in fear. When it's gone, it changes your personality, and the Enneagram stops being that relevant.

[@andrewcramer9200]

The problem is the "root fear" or whatever you wanna call it is pure conjecture. A TON of people have said they were supposed to be one type but actually felt they struggled with a "core fear" of a type that was supposed to be not even close to correct 🤣🤣🤣🤣 so people who make money off this scam have to invent wings, triads, or whatever moon-in-Mercury layer they come up with next to try and Little Dutch Boy their way into bilking more money out of suckers. But the Enneagram dam has way too many holes.

[@Fredosphere]

The reason more Christians than usual are drawn to the Enneagram as a personality typing system is that it's more blunt about the weaknesses of each type than other typing systems, which tend to flatter people. Each type has it's own particular temptation that needs to be resisted, along with its particular strengths. The Enneagram is based on intuition, not research (the way the Big Five system is) so, yeah, it's not scientific, so reject it for that reason if you like. But anecdotally connecting it to creepy people who also believed bad things is evidence of nothing. That's a "Hitler was a vegetarian!" argument and it's silly.

[@andrewcramer9200]

It actually is not the genetic fallacy as you try to claim. If a tool has been proven to be useless, and the enneagram has (see Anthony C Edwards, 1991, or Koocher et al, ~2015 for two major scientific studies debunking it), that should be enough, but one of the rules of the genetic fallacy is if the source is unreliable, we are not wrong to reject their claims. If you want to claim a man who openly admitted the enneagram was gifted to him by "higher authorities", and named the "Archangel Metatron" way back when, best of luck 🤣🤣🤣

[@loveforgood7520]

Mike, you knew about where it came from and yet your ok with other people you know to use it? What? Come on man..

[@awilkie15]

Check out Marcia Montenegro s research on this. The Midwest Christian education center did a whole seminar

[@suzannefoust3156]

The enneagram is from Catholic monks and has a lot to do with mysticism. Stay away from it.

[@Prin_Cess_007]

Look up @Doreen Virtue channel (ex tarot card maker) she has a great ministry & talks a lot about the dangers of enenegrams from personal experience.

[@fluffysheap]

Didn't know about her, I'll take a look

[@Prin_Cess_007]

@@fluffysheap also Check out Steven bancaraz, he’s also a well known new-ager come to Christ. He now does apologetics against new age/alien mystery stuff.

[@JontheBerean]

My friend recently read a Doreen Virtue testimony book , he said it was brilliant! But beware, some of her New Age books are still around

[@Prin_Cess_007]

Jon the Baptist right on, I’ll have to check it out. She actually went around & requested all of her sellers stop selling her books & angel cards, evidently some didn’t care.

[@JontheBerean]

@@Prin_Cess_007 The book is called Deceived No More , published 28th July 2020 , so I guess any of her books before that are to be avoided

[@springflowerblosomnorris9721]

If you are a Christian than leave the paganism behind and don't look back.

[@Supsup7777]

I would run from it like the plague.

[@arielflores1337]

For me the enneagram its fun, mainly to understand peoples personalities a little bit more

[@andrewcramer9200]

It's awful at that.

[@briopelle684]

"it's weird" - anything more specific, Mike?

[@WoundedEgo]

I have found the Enneagram to be a useful mirror to help discern the "ABC's of me." IE: To understand the way that my particular personality functions. It is only a useful tool. It doesn't feature a lot of hocus-pocus, just an analytical resource.

[@xxstevenicholxx8732]

Mellisa Dougherty has some great videos on this. It is bad

[@LadyoftheBunnies]

And yes Mike is spot on! > the enneagram will definitely lead to Rohr's teachings... and we know how bad that is

[@thebamabirds8182]

I had pych professor in college who was about to retire and we spent the entire semester doing enneagram i almost asked for my money back since i learned absolutely nothing about phycology and it was so underwhelming i dont even recall what my type was it was total bull

[@andrewcramer9200]

Yikes. Most psychologists ditch that trash once they have to start taking senior/graduate level classes. For a professor to be using it shows the sorry state of education 😢

[@Anon9897-tj1dz]

My guy really just described Christianity.

[@MichaelDamianPHD]

The only thing I agree with here is that Richard Rohr believes in a lot of garbage. I find the Enneagram quite useful.

[@andrewcramer9200]

Well, experts have called it the least useful thing in the field of personality so ya might wanna do more rigorous research on human cognition, biases, memory, etc. The enneagram is embarrassingly stupid, even without the psychedelic drugs using Gurdjieff cult members who created it using "automatic writing."

[@73oldsmobile88]

This is the reason me n my family left Sandles church

[@Artbycarrie]

It’s a new age practice. Stay away.

[@EmeraldRubyTea]

The enneagram was received through automatic writing ( new age stuff and demonic) and focuses on what we need to do define, know and fix ourselves. Nothing in it points to Jesus, the Holy Spirit or points to what God thinks of us or how he sees us.

[@tomellinson]

PLEASE do a deep dive on this. Seriously. There are large groups of Christians leaning very heavily on the Enneagram for their understanding and management of people, and for spiritual guidance. If you challenge that, people get very angry. It's a hornet's nest worth hitting.

[@LifeWithJuan]

If anything, I just think it's a fun quiz that shows you current aspects of your personality. But at the end of the day, it is just a game and nothing more. I should never use it to guide my life, much less my relationship with Christ and with others. The Bible is the Word of God and is still the OG guide for me, more than anything else whether scientific or unscientific.

[@nrg753]

@Mike Winger check out Marcia Montenegro. Problems with the enneagram is a primary focus of hers.

[@robertdouglas8895]

No one is totally wrong or right. Weird doesn't mean wrong. It means you don't understand it.

[@tessw9744]

It's occultism.

[@lorefox201]

it's esoteric stuff,stay away

[@brittanibarnhill5421]

I have done no research on it being tied to Christianity. I was told to take it to learn how you are wired compared to other people. It helped me understand how my personality was and why I don't jive as well with certain people versus others. But I've never taken it any further than that. I have found it to be very helpful in me understanding myself better in the way I was wired. I don't take it any further than that though.

[@andrewcramer9200]

It's not good at that either. Seriously, Annie Murphy Paul was editor in chief of psychology today and wrote an entire book on why YOU SHOULDN'T EVEN USE TYPOLOGY FOR EXACTLY WHAT YOU DESCRIBE.

[@aewyn7723]

Enneagram is super useful for Christians and others! I mean, you can’t treat it like it’s some eternal truth or something, but it can help you identify what you need to work on within yourself and give you a framework for healing. If your faith in Christ is solid, you’re not going to get “led away” or “corrupted” by the enneagram - you’ll just use it as a tool for personal development. That’s all it is and all it has to be!

[@dagwould]

Its only useful if you want to get to know demons.

[@justinj_00]

@@dagwould how does a fun online quiz helping me understand how not everyone approaches things logically the way I do help me become friends with demons?

[@andrewcramer9200]

​@@justinj_00try taking years of psychology courses and learning how easy it is to dupe people with nonsense pseudoscience. There's a reason a large majority of psychologists openly mock the Enneagram, and it's not because they're hyper-religious.

[@jcchrism]

I find it really amusing when people call other people heretics when they have absolutely no idea what it's all about themselves 🤣

[@brandicook910]

Spencer Smith speaks out against it, too! Check out the Third Adam series on youtube!

[@K777angel]

It annoys me. I like Meyer Briggs, David Keirsey, it too can be misused but it is incredibly useful.

[@L0V3RB0Y21]

"It's weird and I think a guy is a heretic who follows it" Nice critique brother. You must build your faith for the distance run not for a Sprint. If you think therapy harms more than it helps you need therapy. The difference between you and me as I'm going to be a Christian when I turn 70 and I don't know where you're going to be in the next 10 years

[@thenocappodcast7446]

I knew somebody who once said this (not a joke I promise) She calls her boyfriend on the phone in tears and says, "I just took the enneagram test again and I'm a different number and now I don't know who I am anymore." It is literally just horoscope with the Christian label slapped on it, that's all it is.

[@kimberlyjennings618]

So sad! Yeah and it’s not even Christian lol so confusing

[@TheOurple]

It's pseudoscience

[@JesusisHere777]

No it's not fine. At all

[@melissamcbee4297]

We took a test at school and I did professional development on it. I was attacked for my personality type. They test everyone in a box and say that this is who you are! I was upset. The psychologist running it was making my personality type into a negative space.

[@danielbrowniel]

Speaking from experience, with demonic influence, anything at all can be made a stage for a play for these unclean spirits, even the Bible. The obvious red flag with the enneagram is the "importance of self", like looking in the mirror and trying to see God, it's pointless flattery and flattery is almost always the main hook in demonic influence, minor hooks being fear/ intimidation maybe wonder?

[@Yipper64]

Everything is just communication, this is something ive noticed in life generally. Especially words. Words are an attempt to communicate something. But due to the tower of babel, words cant effectively communicate exactly what the person means, it must be translated one way or the other. And so, when someone says something, you have to figure out not what the words say by definition, but what they are *trying to* say. When it comes to enneagrams, or personality tests in general, its people trying to communicate what general category they fall into. Group people together based on certain ways they think. This is however, generalizing. Which, generalizing often makes it easier to communicate, but you often get information that is either not entirely accurate, or sometimes completely inaccurate.

[@ElleeZee289]

The Bible teaches me how to treat people based on what Jesus did for me, not based on anyone’s personality. I’ve personally found that reading the Bible, abiding in Jesus, praying for humility, etc has been more effective than any personality test. The Bible is centered on relationship starting with the book of Genesis, all the way to revelation. The Bible says so much about our relationship with God, to fellow Christians, and our neighbors. The enneagram is not an effective shortcut or useful tool in this area and for many people, it is an idol. I wouldn’t condemn anyone for taking a personality test but I think God’s wisdom would likely guide people away from the enneagram.

[@Yipper64]

@@ElleeZee289 I mean yeah but that's not really the point I was making. Knowing who you are does ultimately most effectively come from reading the Bible, yes. Knowing the creator who we where made in his image is going to give us more information on ourselves than anything else could. But like I said, this isn't about that. It's about an artificial grouping of people, and communicating something with that. I guess I should make it clear I don't think this communicates really anything effectively, but it feels like it does. So I agree completely, if someone is abiding in Jesus they wouldn't need this to communicate anything, they know what they are. It's not the end of the world if someone takes one of these personality tests for fun, but they just aren't exactly true at the end of the day. They are just as true as any horoscope, and have a similar function at that.

[@ElleeZee289]

@@Yipper64 yes, then I agree with you!

[@joliekae]

Don't be deceived.

[@ythatesfacts]

plus there isn't much science behind it. MBTI isn't hugely scientific but it is a good way to look at which career would fit you best.

[@thatonechristianweeb4050]

People have said it's like the "Christian horoscope." Stay away from it. If it's being tied to these things, don't get involved just because it has a Christian label. Many fals teachers bear the Christian title. They're not Christians.

[@fighterxaos1]

I don't get why us Protestants are dragging our feet on condemning this enneagram thing. The Catholic church already did. It's not even scientifically useful for personality types and it's connected to some weird new-agey stuff too if I remember right.

[@ShirlynMwangi]

What are your thoughts on MBTI personality test?

[@andrewcramer9200]

It has the same exact origin story, just without Naranjo, Ichazo, or Gurdjieff. There are two books, The Aryan Christ and The Jung Cult by a psychologist named Richard Noll. Jung's theory of personality types was whispered in his ear by detached voices in his head that also told him that he could become Jesus Christ 😂

[@andrewcramer9200]

Secular author Patrick Vermeren has a free chapter of a humongous book he wrote where he describes Jung's theories as coming to him while he was experiencing profound mental illness. None of this is a secret, nor is it hard to find. But either the authors of popular MBTI, Enneagram, et al books are either completely inadequate at doing proper research, or are hoping nobody notices this stuff.

[@006farm]

Its demonic

[@BiguDigu]

Ennegram was invented thousands of years ago for archetypal understandings but during the 1900s it's come really far scientifically. Many actual psychologists have studied it and most people only know about "the main 9 types" when theres an incredible amount of other variables like tritype and instinctual variants wich are just as important if not much more. Now that is psychology and shouldn't be related to Christianity whatsoever.

[@pamelah6431]

"B" is not okay.

[@honkhonk6094]

I'm definitely going to start using this. 270

[@KellieSPEAKS]

I think it’s a fun tool! You shouldn’t take it as Gods word however, I cannot lie and say mine wasn’t an accurate description of how I work..

[@jweaver2293]

Red flag goes up.

[@Notknightrider]

Enneagram was created by Claudio Naranjo who is a New Age practitioner who used Automatic Writing to come up with the Personality Types. The bottom line question for Christians is...do you want your perception/understanding of yourself based on something that has its origins in contacting familiar spirits?

[@mypersonalaccount4934]

Just like MBTI and all other stuffs, Enneagram is a great tool as personality test. But it's more of the psychologist's and other more secular institutions' part, not the church's part. It's unbiblical. Just because you're ENFJ 5w4 sx/sp, INFP 9w1 sx/sp, ISTP 8w9 sp/so or other types doesn't mean you should favor some of the biblical teachings and ignore the others.

[@Tristan-fz8jg]

I don't understand why people give power to things that need no interpretation beyond what it is. Ive taken the test. Its literally a questionnaire about your behaviors and reactions in order to categorize ones self in a pseudoscientific way that sort of explains peoples personalities. Thats it. It's a neat psychological reflection tool, its useful for writing (fictional characters in stories), it might help explain certain patterned behaviors. But thats it. Its not based on stars, its not based on Christianity, its not based on witchcraft or paganism despite the scary geometrical shape. Why do we need to panic?

[@Viralmusicstudioab]

Followers of jesus are more like the farasees and the jews of jesus time. Jesus said you will be greater then me and do greater things. Are they doing that? Do they even are curious about jesus true life which is abonden the yeshua years from 12-30 year.