Is Age of Sigmar a TRASH Game?

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00:00 Intro
01:12 Complex List Building
04:11 Game Bloat
05:27 Widespread Rules
7:27 Internal Balance
10:31 Flat Gameplay
13:25 Needless Risk
17:29 Conclusion
18:16 Why do I play AoS?

[@Zmapes89]

Too many people forget that one of the top reasons to play age of sigmar is you can play mushroom-addled psychopath goblins that get high and spin wrecking balls at supersonic speeds into a bat centaur vampire lady that’s conflicted by the clash of her feral nature and her nobility.

[@Miniac]

fair

[@Qew77]

Narrative is cool but not an excuse to have bad rules

[@Zmapes89]

@@Qew77 I’m sorry it’s hard to hear you over THE SOUND OF CACKLING HELICOPTERS OF DESTRUCTION🚁☠️🚁☠️🚁

[@jtrain9926]

Yeah, but we already had that game and the bases were square so your guys ranked up into satisfying blocks.

[@Vortagh]

@@jtrain9926 this. There was little that compared to mushroom-addled psychopath with their wrecking balls smashing into four rows of my high elf spearmen. Well, maybe mushroom-addled psychopath DIVE BOMBING into four rows of my high elf spearmen. What a loss killing off that game was. ffs...

[@bettsdn]

I think many of these comments can apply to 40k as well. The inability to trust a central repository for rules along side the near constant tempo of rules changes is what made me give up on 40k after only a few months of 9th ed as a new player. Planning to try One Page Rules so I can keep using my models.

[@Morrodin182]

Tbh, I think 40K Rule bloat is even worse :P Then again maybe I am just a bit more familiar with AoS. Both games have a high threshold to get into though due to how rules are handled. It doesn't suffice to have the core rules, you need so many extra resources just to play your own army. If you want to be REALLY good and also know your opponent's army and what it can do, it just gets so much harder. When playing vs. other players at the moment I just need to belief them on their word if they say that they can do what they do.

[@devunnolan2039]

i enjoy both games but as someone who’s taught complete wargame noobs both games, AoS is much easier to explain. All GW games suffer from rules bloat and constant updates though, id highly recommend people that just like the models to stick to the skirmish games like warcry or killteam for a while, i think they’re easier to keep up with and the games go faster so you’re not trying to remember as much stuff

[@kaidelege7579]

I came here to comment about One Page Rules because it basically fixed all my complaints, many of which mirrored Miniacs.

[@giuseppecorino1309]

Go for it my friend! It's an amazing game! Easier and faster, and even more fair with the turn base system, so far I've played Grimdark Future and Grimdark Future Firefight (the kill team version) soon we will start to play campaign as well and I'm trying to convince my buddies to play the "necromunda" version (gangs war)

[@theruintheruin337]

This is where I feel like you are completely wrong. The rules for 40k are complex when you play competitive. Open play however is extremely simple with no detachments, strategems, or anything of the sort. The thing is, people don't play open play because it is rather rubbish. You can't build creative and in depth lists in open play as you don't get all your upgrades and strategems. And if you were to reduce the upgrades and strategems in 40k, then all of a sudden lists will become extremely similar because there isn't stuff to experiment with and play around with. If you wanted a simpler version of 40k I would just merge competitive and open play so you have strategems and cp, but don't need to worry about detachments and that sort of stuff. Makes it simpler for new comers, and when they want to play properly and more advanced, they can play the full version of competitive, but it won't be the boring and repetitive open play situation either.

[@ryanivy7024]

Conversely, you should make a video extolling the virtues of the best game you’ve been playing and why you like it the most! Or maybe the top three?

[@envaya9838]

seconded

[@craigstueber8073]

I also would MUCH rather hear you talk about a game you like. Then complain about a game you don't like.

[@99Plastics]

Given he got half the rules of AoS wrong just to cry about the rules having too many words. Maybe readings those will help lol

[@InnuendoOutTheOther]

Well, you couldn't understand an NDA so I guess you could be forgiven for not understanding the rules of AoS

[@theharrower]

@@InnuendoOutTheOther 😂

[@brooksf-l7619]

One of the most freeing moments I've had in my gaming career was realizing that you could play one company's game rules with another company's minis.

[@fringemusic9296]

It's crazy how many people haven't realized this.

[@eduardop727]

What game with what rules?

[@edackley8595]

OATHMARK with any minis you want.

[@derekn.52]

Kings of War? 👀

[@marksutherlandjr.2121]

[@huskar97]

I only play AoS in casual games with some friends and i personally find it a lot more enjoyable than 40k, i dont think its as stressful and the games go by faster for me. Ive yet to try any non warhammer games yet but AoS and Kill Team would be my favourites out of the games i have played. The models and army designs are also incredible and i think there is a lot of really cool creativity going on in that side of the game.

[@IsaacSchubert]

> Ive yet to try any non warhammer Are you everyone in my local area? :')

[@wibg1157]

Everything you said about AoS can be applied to 40k's 9th edition, minus the priority order of course.

[@diegomercado-cancel2641]

I was legit going to comment this very thing.

[@LalienX]

yeah this is definitely a GW issue. glad that other games are getting recognition now

[@warpman]

and damage overflow

[@SuperDuperHappyTime]

It’s amazing how much I loved 8th Ed 40K and 2nd Ed AoS and how big of a shithole both versions currently are.

[@zend1678]

It’s also trash and overly complicated and bloated for no reason.

[@remustiberius4784]

Imagine saying too many rules is bad a d then also saying the game doesn't have enough rules in the same critique....

[@Miniac]

AoS has unnecessary bloat. Added rule writing that does very little for the game but harms the learning process more than it helps the game. I don't mind lots of rules in my games (points for items, varied missions), it often adds complexity at a pretty linear cost. But the cost of the bloat in AoS is not linear, it just complicates things needlessly for very little gain. Regarding points for artefacts (aka, extra rules): never said I wanted that to happen in AoS. I was simply showing it as an example to solve what seems like a problem in AoS. I even say in the video, this isn't always the right solution.

[@Obliviator1127]

I've recently branched into Star Wars: Legion and it's been a fast spiral away from GW. Alternating activations, movement is simplified, and its not nearly as "killy" as 40k or AoS. Most units will get a chance to do a few things before they die so there's few alpha strike options. From a mini and painting standpoint, some of the original sculpts aren't great but there's a massive amount of Patreons/Gumroads for 3d printing options. Plus, you get to make Star Wars sound effects and memes as you play so that's pretty 10/10

[@logion567]

There's also Battletech to try out as well! Also has alternating activations, but all damage in the Shooting and physical attack phases are resolved simultaneously (so if your mech gets taken out before you've rolled to see if its attacks land, you can still land those shots declared in the earlier Declaration sub-phase)

[@snarehit2230]

Yeah did that myself, loving legion

[@disposeable1]

Honestly just wish I cared about the minis and the universe more, Legion tables always look like fun.

[@snarehit2230]

@@disposeable1 they are, and with less meta chasing.

[@disposeable1]

@@snarehit2230 Meta chasing is a non factor for me, I enjoy playing against the tough shit just as much at this point.

[@jasongrundy1717]

It's Games Workshop. That answers the question.

[@casualhitman]

Would love to see your take on conquest from a lore, models, gameplay perspective

[@williambailey118]

Second this. I LOVE the miniature range and the rule set. I'd love to get his take.

[@TheSteak77]

Just pre ordered the new 2 player starter for conquest. Very excited to start a new game and collection. Also been loving a song of ice and fire. Would recommend it.

[@ezebg666]

@@TheSteak77 mine gets here on Friday. Goodbye warmachine hello Conquest

[@Aquateenmitch]

Yes, please!

[@uruk_bye1232]

@@ezebg666 I feel you. I miss Warmachine a lot, and this looks like the next best thing (minus good-looking minis)

[@seanzor21]

DOUBLE TURN DOUBLE TURN DOUBLE TURN

[@withteethfilmssp7794]

I started playing tabletop games with Kill Team about 5 years ago. I then moved into age of sigmar because I wanted to try the large scale battles, but in a fantasy setting. But about 8 months ago I picked up Marvel crisis protocol, and I’m having more fun with it then I ever had with either Kill Team or AOS.

[@bartswargaming]

DOUBLE TURN DOUBLE TURN DOUBLE TURN DOUBLE TURN DOUBLE TURN

[@arjannissen]

Tbh an important thing to remember is you don't actually need to buy all the books and whitedwarfs to play AoS. If you want to play competitively with the current meta you do, but if you just buy the battletome for your army (which is not that bad seeing it has a lot of lore and cool pics of the army you like) you can find the core rules for free in the app and with just those rules you can have a really fun game! You don't need the latest updates or a GHB to play casually with friends and just have a good time. You can also keep playing the game with those same books and rules without need to follow the updates every 6 months or every new edition. If you want to play tournaments or just like to keep updated you do, but otherwise I think you can have as much fun without that!

[@gailonebell2154]

This is it. GW put a battlepack in the core rules for this very reason. There is a 'base' game that people can play with grand strategies and battle tactics and battleplans that haven't changed since 3ed was released. The ironic problem is that people *want* to play the new stuff. So it's difficult to say the new stuff is a problem with the game, when it seems to be the players wanting to play it all (I love it).

[@arjannissen]

@@dannyslag It's only a pointless suggestion if you regularly have to find new people to play, as you do if you play competitively. If you only play games with a couple of your friends and have no intention of going around finding new people to play against it truly isn't pointless. Thats exactly what me and my friends do. 4 of us, we like this edition and these tomes, we'll keep playing this without need for updates.

[@hanswurst7727]

I play „competetively“ with my gaming group, means good winning-oriented lists and up to date matched play rules. I have three playable armies with options, and i never bought a battletome or the generals handbook. You will find every info you need online easily.

[@envaya9838]

the list building is still a hot steaming pile of shit

[@hanswurst7727]

@@envaya9838 it is, without the app you would be lost. No way to get it done with book & paper, unless you know everything by heart.

[@kelimar3014]

I’d really like to hear about what those other games were, and how they ranked both against AoS and each other.

[@yellowbellytabletop]

One Page Rules Age of Fantasy on the other hand is a breath of fresh air in it's simplicity, while retaining meaningful decision making during play.

[@DeusMachina71]

I couldn't agree more.. even with simple beer and pretzel rules it's still way more fun to play OPR than any of the GW games

[@elguntor]

This is the way!

[@TheMiniJunkie]

So to clarify they have rules for AoS minis and factions?

[@Pesso86]

@@TheMiniJunkie yes, they have rules for everything

[@yellowbellytabletop]

@@TheMiniJunkie Although some of the naming conventions are a bit cryptic, they have created proxy lists for all of GWs model ranges. For example Rift Daemons = Disciples of Tzeentch etc.

[@Nosferatuklown]

One of the reasons I like one page rules, mini agnostic...I like that mini and I want to paint that mini...no issues using it in my army for OPR

[@Justlegos]

I’d love to see more people play Age of Sigmar’s open play scenarios and narrative scenarios. The common complaint of all battleplans are thrown out the window in open play and it’s much more like a board game. Is it balanced? Ehhhh sometimes lol, but it’s a blast.

[@lunatykuku]

Malifaux solves almost all the problems you mentioned in the video. List Building? Easy and clear. You have app that shows you everything. Rules? All free via app or pdf. Balance? Sure. It's a bit like rock-paper-scissors, but you create a list only after you know the scenario and the opponent's master. Gameplay? Complex and nuanced. The turns are played alternately so you almost always have the option to react to your opponent's actions. Randomness and unnecessary risk? There's no dice, only cards. In most cases you can cheat a card from your hand.

[@miniaturestash]

I got into Warcry so I can experience a bunch of AoS Army's so that I may find an army I'd enjoy building. But glad Warcry have out the rules and compendium for free for 2.0 cause I got 6 books left from 1.0 books are expensive haha. Great video Scott love hearing other people's view on games

[@WattaYog]

Scott, have you considered One Page Rules Age of Fantasy? As someone who has struggled to get started with Age of Sigmar for many of the reasons you mention in this video, I love the playability/list building/low cost barrier of One Page Rules. I wish more people would branch out beyond GW games because there are so many great games out there but people are afraid they won't find people to play with. Also you can use your GW figs, and they have both Vampires and Wood Elves 😉

[@PocketPigments]

I personally love the miniatures...but I can't stand the game/business model... Best miniature game mechanically that I've played is Marvel Crisis Protocol due to how concise and tight the rules are, but I'd say Infinity is up there as well just for how interactive it is (really keeps both players engaged the whole time).

[@devunnolan2039]

if you like the models i’d recommend their smaller skirmish games like killteam or warcry. faster games, less models, less updates to keep up with

[@sirbaconbuster]

If you like tight competitive rules that have a smidge of (but not too much) RNG, I would look into Infinity. It is a sci-fi game, but you could probably play it with fantasy models and just rename things. Definitely one of the best rule systems I've played with.

[@MasterShake9000]

To me, the best 40k of recent years was when 8th was launched with basic Index books that were fairly flexible yet simple. No tons of faction rules or things like strategems and relics, just the basic generic options out of the rulebook and the basic units from the Index books. If you look at 40k, there’s roughly 25 codexes with an average of 4-6 factions per codex. That’s technically 100-150 distinct armies that GW has to try and balance against each other. AoS benefited from having fewer armies and somewhat less complexity from relative lack of shooting and vehicles compared to 40k, but with range creep and the new edition adding seasonal meta changes, AoS has acquired a similar sense of rules bloat. As someone who’s played 40k since Rogue Trader and WHFB since 5th, I’m biased in terms of not minding the core rules (you go I go, random who goes first, etc) that others feel are antiquated. I genuinely think the core rules mechanics wouldn’t feel so irksome to a lot of people if it wasn’t for all the faction and seasonal bloat that GW has tried to add to its systems. Not to mention that the rules bloat has only been compounded by the model bloat. A typical early 2nd Ed 40k Marine army might have 2-3 characters, 2-3 squads, and 1-2 vehicles. Modern 40k and AoS feel like the original 40k Apocalypse did back in the day with a dozen or more units per side in most standard games. This is a weird comparison that likely only makes sense to me, but modern AoS/40k has begun to feel like WHFB Undead armies, which were among my favorite lore and model-wise, but the least favorite in terms of rules, because the way they were designed as largely chaff armies dependent on Raise Dead meant playing them felt like I was just moving unit wound counters (Skellies) on and off the table. In a similar way (to me), the complexity of the rules and the size of modern AoS and 40k armies makes a lot of things feel like wound counters for marking enemy attacks and victory points, rather than genuine army components “doing stuff”. I really do think a number of “alternate” rule sets, like One Page Rules or Xenos Rampant, do a better job of representing GW games at either a better scale (XR) or with a more suitable ruleset for the larger scale (OPR). And to end my tedtalk, while I don’t mind the loss of the “Old World” background in and of itself, the core AoS lore just doesn’t grab me at all. I love the Gits lore as well as the Beastmen, but ironically AoS feels more generic to me than WHFB’s “medieval renaissance but make it fantasy” lore ever did.

[@oktoberbabyfee]

Kinda true. I too think it was super convenient to have the Index books cover multiple armies with one single purchase. The execution was just a bit awkward - they somehow thought it would be a good idea to put the rules for Heavy Bolters and Stubbers on almost every page of the book. 🙄 About AoS lore - I absolutely agree. Even though the High Fantasy style looked exciting at first, it quickly fell short in offering any stories that got me invested or even interested. WHFB on the other hand spun the somehow generic Fantasy setting into something way more compelling and meaningful than its setting would ever imply. It was so coherent and vivid, it felt like the stories were telling themselves.

[@bioniclego97]

It feels like they're trying to scale down subfactions and stratagems a bit when looking at the world eaters codex. There's just two subfactions with a single page of stratagems each, which is a good thing imo. I hope it's a proper sign of change in the right direction when it comes to rules bloat.

[@MasterShake9000]

@@bioniclego97 It’ll be interesting to see if the WE codex is essentially a 10th edition book in that regards, or if it was somewhat limited due to being the initial codex of a new (separate) army. I’ve heard the Guard codex moves away from maintaining all the different regiments as distinct factions, so it might be an indicator too.

[@bombarded15]

Index 8th was the best, so chill

[@NecronautDrummer]

Anyone remember when Uncle Atom made that video years ago talking about the virtues of AOS, especially as a couple kids with limited funds who could never ever afford to get into 40K, but because everything was online both could buy an AOS unit and assemble and play them that evening with no extra cost and no extra books needed?

[@darkwargs2383]

tbf all the core rules and unit rules are available online still. The only thing you wouldn't have is a battlepack but you can easily invent one yourself. The AOS app contains all the core book battalions and grand strategies and battle tactics for free its great.

[@gammothguy297]

You can get all the basic rules and rules for the units for free on the app. So that still applies.

[@99Plastics]

@@gammothguy297 Yes but he can't cry about it. So best pretend its not so.

[@BlastedRodent]

“You can’t get away from dice rolls in wargames entirely” - Uhm, achshually, Malifaux uses no dice whatsoever! 🤓 It uses a deck of cards instead, which ads a level of control to the randomness. It is also an incredible game that you should absolutely try if you haven’t already.

[@Aquateenmitch]

Agreed! Malifaux gameplay and rules are some of the best out there. Eons of Battle is doing content for it occasionally, but the game doesnt get the coverage that it deserves

[@sirbobulous]

And a bunch of historical games have very limited dice rolling - they still have some - but you can play General d'Armee or Marechal d'Empire with about 2d6 total. It's instead a bunch of modifiers and combat factors and reactive decision making with a single d6 roll to add just that small amount of chance.

[@MCXL1140]

We played super fantasy brawl on stream which is a card based skirmish game. And ASOIAF has cards on top of the dice.

[@Mrjspectre]

I don't play AOS but I feel a lot of the rule bloat and excess dice rolls are a problem in 40k. not to mention if you are trying to find a rule clarification in one of the books, good luck. Thank god for online resources. I'm mostly here for the awesome sculpts

[@InVerum]

Hate the double turn. Literally the driving factor in going to Age of Fantasy. One Page Rules is crushing the game right now. If you aren't playing OPR variations you are 100% missing out on the best tabletop wargaming happening right now.

[@henry7696]

reported to james workshop

[@isaacwallace95]

Have you tried the One Page Rules games, the grimdark future made 40k so much simpler to get into and I can assume grimdark fantasy would be similar. Simple rules quick to pick up and most important for me was that it's all 100% free.

[@Miniac]

I haven't tried it yet but definitely want to!

[@pierremartin4600]

Second this, great rule set, open and fun

[@hageng.6149]

Giving up 40k and AoS cause of all the bloat, OPR ist just the right game. You have a core mechanic and can make it as complex as you like it. Oh, and did you look at the Minis they made? They are awesome! Those Ratmen ...

[@pugz9954]

I was going to make this recommendation also, One Page Rules is a great game

[@SomeBlackDude26]

Priority rolling is legitimately the worst mechanic in the game. No player should get to go twice in a row ever.

[@ElPeggo33]

I’ve been enjoying watching your output re: AOS lately. Painting videos, gaming vods, reviews. It all comes under an umbrella that I think makes for good viewing and I’d like to see more of these long spanning investigations into game systems/model ranges. Entertaining stuff!

[@LV99guy]

Never played a game of AOS just love the minis to paint and collect

[@AlertedDonkey42]

I still think you should try out Malifaux some time. It's got the more complex objectives, cool looking models, and reduced reliance on simple luck to win. The use of a deck of cards is also really fun and unique. I know a lot of former Guildball players picked up Malifaux after Guildball was discontinued since Malifaux also scratches that itch for a complex and competitive skirmish game. I've also been enjoying Bushido and Dystopian Wars recently. I'd love to see a wider variety of games covered on larger channels.

[@Aquateenmitch]

Yup! As a malifaux player myself, I wish more people would give it a try. Best gameplay out there, but unfortunately the scale of the models and theme tends to turn people off.

[@thatguywithapaintbrush]

+1 on this!

[@sirbobulous]

Bushido is SUCH a good game! So much flavour and so convenient with the small table size and small warbands. You can spend the time to lavish attention and effort in the painting and modelling and then the game mechanics reward you for doing so with cool abilities that evoke Wuxia and Samurai media, characters that emnody archetypes and power fantasies, etc.

[@OzDawg1333]

To be honest out of all the TT Minature games I've played I enjoy Marvel Crisis Protocol the most. Extremely fun and I think the mechanics of the game are pretty balanced overall.

[@sirbobulous]

Yeah, MCP is an excellent game. Loads of flavour and character, often very back and forth gameplay.

[@Akalos1]

All the ex warmachine devs are in on that I heard: that explains why a random marvel capeshit game can be so well received.

[@hyperbolehyde]

You might find Carnevale to be a nice palette cleanser. Beautiful evocative models, a starter box that has the complete game in it, meaningful dice rolls, and model actions that make narrative sense. Plus your fishman can shank a priest and then drown them in a puddle.

[@Dhrazia]

Carnevale is a really really fun game to play. Even better with a Venice board! I have a Patricians gang.

[@DasVerteidiger]

A few thoughts, ghb has the core rules, it's suck that new players wouldn't know that, but you should never buy the giant expensive core rules book. SBGL is an older book at this point, newer books have a done a very good job of internal and external balance, so your opinion might just be stilted by the fact that's the only army you're playing. A new player might pick up a different army and have a better experience. I totally get your critique of the strategy of the game from the perspective a new player - I will say the further you get into playing the game the more you realize how much strategy there is in the game. It seems shallow on the surface but there is endless depth and most of comes down to thinking ahead and good movement choices. A lot of the strategy comes with knowing you could be doubled and playing against it - and there are certain times where giving away the double is the better choice.

[@rmulshine]

Listening to you I think you are drawn to big moments and high levels of consistency. Soulblight is more a middling jack of all trades whose key tactical advantage is on a 5+ base. You might like stormcast or slaves to darkness more.

[@user-yy8nw8yw2c]

You should look into Malifaux. It's one of the best games I've played. It's a skirmish game that uses a deck of cards instead of dice, tight, streamlined rules, cool models and lore, and a lot of it has HORROR themes. You'll love it and it would be awesome to see the game get more love.

[@Aquateenmitch]

Agreed! Give Malifaux some love. Eons of Battle has some models painted up and that crossover video would be amazing!

[@Aquateenmitch]

Agreed! Give Malifaux some love. Eons of Battle has some models painted up and that crossover video would be amazing!

[@mediocremukbangs1655]

I wish I liked the maulifaux aesthetic. There’s a bunch of people that play around me but I’m just not into it. I want infinity to start showing up around here. I think it’s cool.

[@WeirdBen82]

Well there is One Page Rules as an alternative though it seems to maybe be a little to simplified, but i haven't gotten to try it myself so I can't really say if its good or bad.

[@generbor2432]

A strong double-turn to attack your opponent is trumped by a good play for VPs. This is what I love about Age of Sigmar. It's not just a slugging match (Usually).

[@Manlio.Cipullo]

yeah, it is a mess of tactical match...

[@phasestar7787]

Good video, but I have to say if you haven't tried Kings of War I do think you would love it and you can choose which miniatures you want to use in your army, so you can have GW minis and much better rules and gameplay.

[@edoardoluppi6455]

Was thinking the exact same. KoW has a better system, and the points scott touched are all solved by it. Yeah, I know one might not like mantic's models, but you're literally free to use the ones you like lol

[@MattPopeUK]

Was going to write exactly this! Sure mantic models arent up to GWs high standard, so dont use them if thats important to you..... They are getting better and once the game play hooks you the shiny models are (slightly) less important.... I just wish there was a similar answer to Mantics Firefight. Personally the best sci-fi game I have played but its dependant on mantic models and some of these are bound to be off putting to GW players....

[@JoshuaSMurray]

I've never played any skirmish/war games, but am very interested in finding one to get into. I'm a little confused by the end of the video where you said you continue to play because of the models. Aren't GW games the only ones that are super proprietary and frown on you for proxies? Wouldn't you be able to field yourself a beautiful GW army for another game?

[@bhoare843]

Yep, use them for OPR

[@Pv2Bagbar]

There's some fair points about rules bloat and cost, but this seems pretty click-baity

[@subzero47pl]

I like both AOS and 40K in terms on models and lore but if comes to gaming I like AOS way better.

[@welp2388]

AOS plays better, 40K is so bloated with rules its gets very confusing really fast. I played 2 games of 9th and that was enough for me. Hopefully 10th edition isn't as bad

[@Akalos1]

Get out of the games workshop gulag and you'll find that GW actually writes terrible games haha.

[@finnwerin5298]

If you want more variety in battle plans you can look up the narrative ones in the core rulebook or open play with its random battle plans. They might not be the most balanced but can still be fun. Furthermore, if you don't want grand strategy or battle tactics, open play and narrative don't use them.

[@Straightorama]

Love this! Would love to see this for more games!

[@eyedestroyeverything9953]

That company holds our favorite grim dark hostage and they’re not gonna give us a break .

[@mortthepirate6318]

Hearing you talk about your game preferences, have you tried malifaux? It's variety of main and side missions and reduced randomness sound like it's right up your alley. Plus the models are amazing.

[@jonathanantoine6391]

Fantastic game for sure! A skirmish though.

[@richardmatthews7275]

My meta left malifaux as they can't get their stuff out on time. lady j 2 still isn't out despite the rules being released about 2 years ago. Plus it got as expensive as AOS and the need to take different masters has become obsolete why would I run jack daw in a tournament when I can von Schill who does everything and does it better. It's a shame as I love the game but the company has ruined it

[@housedesk90]

look at the videos that comprise miniac's channel. dude's a content creator first and foremost, hobbyist second, and wargamer third. his take is exactly what you'd expect to hear from a "so-so pro" lmao

[@tristanglidden581]

Sounds like you need Kings of War. I started this before you name dropped Mantic towards the end. My bad. I almost exclusively 3D print my armies and in the past few months I've gotten 2nd place in paint consistently. We take a lot of pride in our painting AND battle down here in Texas. My next project is using ASOIAF Stark miniatures as a KoW army.

[@chrisblatchley4262]

Man, I didn’t realize how much I missed these videos in January 😂

[@kingkongdong7042]

Doesn't understand rules. Doesn't play 2000 point games. "So-so pro" Yeah, okay buddy.

[@Miniac]

I define "so-so pro" in the video. It's just a fun term my friends and I use that is synonymous with try hard. Looking at it out of context means something else.

[@HiseyHisey]

Having seen your 10 games you played, I have to say you should give Infinity by Corvus Belli a try. It is an unbelievably tactical sci-fi game with some of the best miniatures in the industry.

[@PocketPigments]

Ditto! Love me some Infinity. Just did a video on it a few weeks back after finding some locals that play. It's such a fun/interactive system (though definitely a little rules heavy).

[@thechadbuddha]

infinity

[@Miniac]

I actually forgot that I have also played Infinity in the last year. My impression of the game is that it feels cobbled together. Like with each version they added more and more without trimming it up a bit. Age of Sigmar actually feels this way as well. It feels like the developers didn't know where they were headed before they started making the game. I've only played 1 demo, however, so more play testing is absolutely required!

[@Boshea241]

Infinity I think just exemplifies the rule bloat issue. Its a game you can just lose in list building because of some weird rule you didn't account for,

[@HiseyHisey]

@@Miniac The way you describe it makes me wonder which edition you were playing? Not trimming previous editions makes me think of N3 (3rd edition). The newest edition N4 cleaned up a massive amount of rules and brought the system into a more modern rule set. But it's also good to recognize that not all games can appeal to all people. Either way, I would definitely recommend giving it another, more extended, try.

[@dantothex13]

I feel like alternating activation is something that adds a lot to strategy games. It just makes sense logically as well since an entire army would not wait for their turn while watching as all their foes march and strike first.

[@Akalos1]

Bolt Action has been doing it for over a decade: When gw drunkenly stumbles on it with the latest version of Kill Team we are supposed to applaud them for their great game design.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Thanks for the shout-out cutie. You don't like the prio cause you aren't thinking about it. It's a tool not a problem. Would love to talk to you about it

[@Miniac]

I would also love to talk about it with you!

[@TheHonestWargamer]

@@Miniac if ever you fancy a call and coming on my show to chat. Hit me up. We would love it

[@russellphillips657]

You should try One page rules, Age of Fantasy

[@TheManAmongAll]

Is the complexity centred around Matched Play? Im get to into the game but was hoping given what you’ve said that maybe Open and Narrative were a lot simpler in that aspect? Got me worried before I’ve even rolled some dice 😅 I’m planning on rolling with the core rules and my army book and that’s it 🤷

[@Chriscedk]

Play narrative and open play. What Scott talks about is match play

[@ColinPaints]

Open/narrative play is great if you have a certain kind of friend group and you're a certain kind of gamer but unfortunately if you're playing with randos at the LGS or even just friends who enjoy a slightly different kind of game than you Matched Play is really the best way to make sure the games are competitive (and by that I mean relatively even for both players and the bat chance of being close and full of meaningful decisions). So the problems with matched play are very relevant to the health of the game as a whole, especially to newer players who need the bowling-alley-bumpers more than experienced players who can craft open/narrative play experiences to suit their needs.

[@Kittenmarines]

Love some AOS lore but couldn't do the game anymore. Swapped fully to Infinity and now Conquest.

[@WARdROBEPlaysWWII]

The great thing, you can use those great models with any fantasy ruleset.

[@Miniac]

got one you like?

[@spilbobaggins]

@@Miniac OnePageRules - it's Age of Sgmar with everything dumb fixed and you can learn it in about an hour. Minis agnostic too. It's so good!

[@stevenray8737]

The rules are indeed rough but Age of Sigmar has done me well during 2nd edition, and still enjoying it with 3rd. In addition to Warcry, Quest and Underworlds, AoS 2nd edition offered rules for simple skirmish and solo-coop campaigns, which have remained compatible with 3rd edition. Only thing I'd ask of Games Workshop is a one-off supplement for solo-coop campaigning, as The Glymmsforge Catacombs and Troggoth Slayers are very enjoyable.

[@Lighthawk1986]

As busted as some stuff was in 2.0 I do really miss it. Don’t really have a drive to play 3.0 at all.

[@LSOP-]

F AoS

[@dustinfoster8489]

I've been really getting into Frostgrave lately, and I'd love to see a stream of you trying it for a game or two. It has narrative gameplay, you can field any models you like so you don't have to worry about whether they're pretty or not, and it's got a fairly tight ruleset imo

[@GilthosDrakoniss]

Nothing matters but Parabellum Conquest and The Old World!

[@jordanwilliams998]

It's nice that with no sponsorship you can trash on GW like everyone else wants to. Every point you make about AOS also applies to 40K 9th Edition

[@Hey_Its_MrSteve]

Bushido from GCT Studios is a super fun skirmish game requiring a low investment of time, money, and brain space. The only real issue I see is a relatively small player base. (Which some high profile attention might help to resolve 😉) IMO the minis range from excellent to fairly bland. Mostly depending on how recent they are.

[@sirbobulous]

Those new sculpts are STUNNING. Putting one of the new Kitsune next to my old starter box monks is a bit silly :D

[@chadreid6287]

Kinda sounds like you’d rather be playing narrative matches, Scott! I think GW games focus too much on competitive play these days. Just telling a great story with your models can be a lot more memorable than outscoring your opponent.

[@envaya9838]

*they try to be competitive, but fail at some major points that make a good competitive game

[@chadreid6287]

Just curious since I’m new to wargames, what do GW games fail at?

[@Akalos1]

You can play narrative and still have a balanced game. Narrative doesn't fix the issue, it just provides a lame cope.

[@MrSolidsnake293]

@@chadreid6287 LMAO everything, this is not a joke they screw up everything, and they have done so for multiple years as far back as when the company lost its leadership to corpo types

[@juanmanuelalvarez9668]

All aboard the Malifaux train!

[@CesarIsaacPerez]

When I got into the game all you needed was a Start collecting box and the 4 page rules. I love rolling for initiative. It's part of what makes AoS different.

[@miniaturefun-guy]

After getting into infinity I’ve barley looked at GW games. I recently got a hankering for some fantasy games so printed of the rules for fantasy battle skirmish by one page rules. This has allowed me to buy more models and not have to worry about buying books.

[@sirbobulous]

I think Infinity *might* have the best, most interactive, most engaging ruleset of any wargame in years. The core game engine isn't even that complex (it's the additional rules, abilities and equipment that add the complexity) and is such a strong foundation. It's a game that has a bunch of additional complexity on offer above the basics...that is all super accessible, supported and proxy friendly...and it rewards you with great gameplay for all the effort you put into learning it.

[@leonk.3739]

I'd highly recommend you to try out the middle-earth strategy battle game. It has a priority roll that can be manipulated by heroes using a resource you can't get back and only effecting a part of the board. Most profiles are available in 2 different books and the releases are much slower. The scenarios are really different to each other. They reach from just killing your opponent over holding objectives to finding a hidden treasure or getting over your opponent's board edge without allowing him to do the same.

[@assistantref5084]

MESBG has a great ruleset (for small games, for larger point values it really starts to chug, it's clearly designed for small engagements and struggles with large model counts). But the models range from utter junk to "this would be underwhelming in any other GW game but by comparison looks great." I don't know why their models are so much worse than every other GW game, but it's the single biggest factor IMO to why it has never really seen the success the ruleset and IP could have if properly supported.

[@leonk.3739]

@@assistantref5084 Yes the minis are old and you can see that (sometimes more sometimes less) and you really shouldn't play more than 800 pts (maybe 1000 pts if you really have to). However I have to disagree with you in terms of it never being as successful as it could be. When the game came out and the minis were new the game was insanely popular and it was probably one of the biggest factors to GW's success. Even now it's quite popular given its slower release schedule (FB groups and events for MESBG here in Germany are often bigger than AoS ones).

[@zaganim3813]

@@assistantref5084 100 model lists are still not that sloggy imo when you get into the ruleset. i agree on the model range tho the team needs some funding for sure. its in the spot of doesnt sell enough to warrant new stuff but doesnt attract players because stuff is old

[@thomasblennerhassett7223]

*chants* One Page Rules, One Page Rules, One Page Rules

[@Drahazar1]

Conquest the last argument of kings is all you need.

[@mattp6953]

Honestly I love double turn. Why? It helps break up scripted armies which you see often in 40k and WMH where you can basically just do your thing and largely ignore what your opponent does.

[@PrussianWarfare]

Yeah this one was a head scratcher to me. Age of Sigmar isn't a board game - anything where you roll a dice has inherent risk. Playing tactically and proper planning involves adapting to when things change. The double turn provides risk when players make moves and punishes those who over extend. Planning for what to expect when things go wrong is an important quality for leaders, and it's the case here for what makes a good player.

[@Manlio.Cipullo]

@@PrussianWarfare No, a double turn does not serve anything than ruining a game, like playing chess with an opponent who moves twice... Randomness should stay in other factor at the beginning of the game: wheater conditions, terrain conditions and such things, we already put efforts to mitigate the randomness of dice rolls (which are too many in this game), this is just like saying: i do not care about strategy, lets roll a dice and get lucky! There is a reason why it is the only game implementing such rule, because GW cannot write a proper ruleset for its wargame...

[@markwolfla9960]

​@@Manlio.Cipullo as Prussian said already it makes the game less predictable which is a good thing in my eyes. For one it makes more lists viable. Unlike in 40k where you can almost guess from the get go how things will eventually end up based on the lists and board set-up. There are ways to mitigate your opponent getting a huge advantage from a double turn as well as creating a list to make it more likely that you'll get the first double turn. If your opponent might get the double turn then don't go all out aggressive on them causing yourself to overextend. Start throwing out defense buffs that will last through both turns making it less impactful when your opponent does swing at you. Position in such a way that hampers your opponent reaching you or puts you in a position to retaliate with a hard counter strike. I get that not everyone is going to be a fan of it, but I believe it adds to the decision making process of the game. I also don't think it should be implemented in every rules system. I do, however, think it fits fairly well into Age of Sigmar and forces decisions that would otherwise be simple to make.

[@Manlio.Cipullo]

@@markwolfla9960 i understand, you like non tactical casual games, i like tactical games. That's understandable. I do not blame you because you do not like a game where skill is the most important part, because it could be more predictable some times...

[@greenghost2008]

@@Manlio.Cipullo double turning is not as overpowered as people think. You don't always want to take it even.

[@jacobstrong1494]

I've gotten into Gunpla and Kotobukiya model kits. No game attached but I love the models, very customizable, fun to paint, and the kits are miles ahead of GW model kits.

[@duerf5826]

Hello, fellow hobbyist chad. I collect both Warhammer and gunpla but mainly for building and painting experience. If I'm to put build/paint at 100, then the lore is at 20, and the game is at 5. The gaming aspect, by far, is the worst aspect of the hobby.

[@Harmfulshyguy]

Honestly would love a gundam mini wargame

[@uruk_bye1232]

Kotobukiya Zoids models are great on a desk.

[@mechaman88]

@@Harmfulshyguy They technically exist. Gamma Wolves, for example, is designed with 1/144 scale in mind

[@Gawl88]

*Hides in the corner with a new Rule Book, cards, tome and beginner set for Disciples of Tzeentch I just got.

[@richardregner219]

Spot on about the dice rolls making the game. I use all my GW minis and One Page Rules "Rules" with unit by unit activation. Bravo.

[@LunarHavoc]

Scott it sounds like the game you wish existed already does, OnePageRules' Age of Fantasy. Literally uses the example of spellcasting (Wizard(X) adds +X to a D6 roll for casting a spell), less randomness which leaves more room for strategy, less dice rolling, all of the army rules are updated concurrently, and best of all you can use all GW minis if you want (they all have rules to represent them). Hope you give it a try, this game saved my wargaming experience.

[@docremington1589]

I second this! OPR is for you!

[@kaidelege7579]

One Page Rules: Age of Fantasy fixes many of your issues! >Specifically compatible with GW minis >Single die plus magic level to cast spells >Rules are accessible and free or 5 bucks one time for the bells and whistle rules >No priority roll and uses alternating activations >Less rules bloat >Unified app that runs on web and mobile flawlessly (also free) Its really the exact answer I needed to all of my complaints with AoS and 40k, much of which mirrored yours. Its the "have your cake and eat it too" system for my because i can use all my GW models and play a faster and more accessible game with them.

[@brianv769]

I have not played a game yet, I do love the minis and am slowly building my collection, but my primary fantasy game is MESBG. The rules are excellent, even if most of the miniatures are…a bit old.

[@andrewerickson2922]

About3 months ago I started assembling a Black Templar army, to join in playing with some buddies that have been playing 40k for years. a few weeks ago I *attempted* to play my first real game and, for all of the same reasons outlined here, the list building process leading up to it almost had me in tears. Why is there not a straightforward set of rules for these factions? Why is it not spelled out in plain, dumb english what game I'm playing and how to play it? I can appreciate that there are nuances to complex games like this that might take several games to really get a hold of (I also play Magic: the Gathering), but it was as if they were TRYING to make this inaccessible to a new player.

[@stewartfrancis9188]

You should listen to HeyWoahs reaction video, it might help you actually play the game properly and enjoy it.

[@InnuendoOutTheOther]

Well, you couldn't understand an NDA so I guess you could be forgiven for not understanding the rules of AoS

[@kagann9254]

@miniac I was at the source yesterday for the first time in about a year and I saw the display they had for you and Jon. It reminded of when I first found your channel about 4 years ago. I just wanted to say thanks for the awesome content!

[@claudiaross8240]

Your affiliate link to the air brush compressor shows current unavailable and unknown if it will restock. Maybe they transitioned to a newer model?

[@Miniac]

I'll look into that! Thanks for mentioning it.

[@mattstay1175]

I've felt identical about trying to start up AoS with a couple friends who don't have a tabletop / wargaming background. As someone else mentioned I'd be curious if you ever end up trying One Page Rules - I'm hoping to use the ruleset as a replacement to teach my friends/wife. They have a skirmish version for small games, scaling seems better, and of course flexibility in model choice.

[@Miniac]

definitely willing to try it out!

[@InnuendoOutTheOther]

Well, you couldn't understand an NDA so I guess you could be forgiven for not understanding the rules

[@Miniac]

maybe you should leave this comment a third time

[@lloydjamieson2143]

That season of war monologue was fucking awesome. 🤣🤣🤣😂

[@WelcomeToLumbridge]

Was really confused, i thought this was a Sigmar video. I wasn't able to understand you properly so i turned on the subtitles, this is when i understood what you were truly saying for a 20:54 video, "I should be playing MESBG or SW Legion".

[@AgeofGuns]

I can’t wait for the Old World to come back so we can have WHFB and everyone else can have AoS.

[@anab0lic]

Rules for new WHFB will likely be just as bad.

[@qwer9676]

@@anab0lic As long as they don’t “streamline” the hell out of it and add stratagems then i’m sure people will be satisfied

[@b_Lynx]

I'm hyped for WHFB return like any other WF fan but I think that if Old war returns with just WHFB rules it will fall flat on it's face as a game. There is, now, a competition in the "rank and file" wargaming space and old WHFB rules just don't hold up in clarity and conciseness to something like ASOIAF or Conquest. I kind of want the old world to be the game that gives you "that's how it felt to play fantasy Warhammer".

[@foreverfornever1124]

I do plan on starting AoS eventually. Large wargames like this and 40k can really be a lot to jump into starting out. I really like how Warcry plays so will be starting with that first with Sylvaneth. Currently I think skirmish games are the way to go for beginners and those looking to play more games simply because there is isnt that much info to absorb and games can be learned and played quickly.

[@noprobllama9747]

Would you consider a theoretical video on what to strip out of the current AoS army building process to make it more accessible.

[@Akalos1]

Play a miniature agnostic game like One Page Rules which goes out of its way to provide rules for all your models. Also, no double turns when you have alternating activations.

[@lukevasquez2921]

Have you looked into warmachine from privateer press? It just launched their mark 4 and I always liked the much tighter rules than GW games over the years

[@warpman]

Mark 4 is a bastard, Mk3 was better

[@seraphoncobus]

Thanks for making this, Scott. I hope it will help influence the next edition of Sigmar. I have a seraphon army collection and I'm not getting rid of it.

[@supersaltlee7657]

try onepagerules seraphon

[@LalienX]

fellow dino!

[@garysmith4742]

while I haven't looked into age of sigmar, I recently wanted to get into 40k and the amount of rules plus the overly complicated list building was a massive turn off. I settled on killteam.

[@MrElliptific]

Our club totally dropped AoS. We all have multiple painted armies. We switched to MCP.

[@petershah1009]

You mentioned Mantic at the end. I am curious: Have you tried out Kings of War? It doesn't hit all of your points, but it is a tight rules set and will allow you to mix and match the minis of your choosing. Mantic has also been upping their miniature game substantially over the past few years, although they are still not top-tier in my book.

[@MrLeviathan40k]

Have you tried One Page Rules: Age of Fantasy? Basically free, all AoS miniatures are useable, faster gameplay, alternate activations (action goes back and forth), less clutter!

[@brandon.paints]

Just here to echo that Age of Fantasy from One Page Rules (or Grimdark Future) is where it’s at. The game is strategic, enjoyable, and quick. They actually listen to the community, have a great online army builder, release updates concurrently, and it’s ACTUALLY fun to play, with no real feeling of “auto-win”. The hard part is convincing GW die-hards to try a system from a different company. It’s practically cultish in that sense. Which is increasingly more wild when you consider the fact that Warhammer models are fully supported and welcome, and the rules are free. Anyone with a Warhammer army can play an OPR game with no more investment than an hour or two of their time, and yet it can still be like pulling teeth.

[@jberrysf]

DOUBLE TURN DOUBLE TURN