Minimum Load vs. Maximum Load

[@RimfireAddicted70]

I've reloaded .223 and .223AI for so many years I've lost track, well over 50k rounds between target, varmint, competition and practice ammo. Each use has it's own parameters that I find acceptable or not. I would say given the equipment you are using those groups are going to be pretty on par with what to expect. There are so many ways to tweak ammo to improve accuracy and the same goes for the shooter and the rifle it's too long to list here. It comes down what do you need to be able to accomplish and how much time and money do you have to get the results you want. Once you start looking and spending the cost vs result of improvement goes up dramatically, nothing is free. LOL. Your video is very good at showing overall all 3 loads could serve functionally well. I sub'd looking forward to more content.

[@Okrifleman]

@@RimfireAddicted70 it is fitting that you are subscriber number 223 for me. Thanks! Do you have a favorite powder for 223?

[@RimfireAddicted70]

@@Okrifleman Lucky me! I've used IMR 4895 for practice/plinkin ammo for decades as I bought it deep when they sold it direct from mil surplus pull downs. They used to ship that stuff in wooden crates to your house in unmarked jugs lol. I do like H335 for Varmint loading and Shooters World Tac Rifle on my heavy target loads. I have tried a few other powders and you can make several work but each usually has a con like more heat, fouling or harder to find. I tend to keep to the same and avoid the stress.

[@rubenrodriguez7266]

Love the approach. Makes you wonder how many lbs of powder get wasted every year with people chasing around 0.2g increments of powder charge with 3-5 shot groups.

[@Okrifleman]

@@rubenrodriguez7266 I’ve been chasing my tail for years. I think I’m finally on track??? Thanks for watching.

[@rubenrodriguez7266]

@ they get a lot of crap, but the data driven approaches that the guys at Hornady have put out are super valuable I think. Figuring out what the big variables are first and then doing the minor refinements is huge. Episode 121 of their podcast is good discussion of this along with the infamous “Your Groups are Too Small” episodes. For instance, barrel, bullet and powder selection are the big “knobs” to turn. If it’s just shooting like trash, probably change one of those things vs expecting a 0.010” seating depth change to magically take you from 3” to 0.5” or whatever. Then coarse adjustments to powder charge, and then maybe Coarse increments of seating depth variability maybe to refine the last couple 0.1” of group size ES. All with large sample size groups along each step. I think 10 shot “feelers” makes sense as you look at the initial individual variables, then 20-30 shots to confirm a load.

[@Okrifleman]

@@rubenrodriguez7266 yep, ten shots is enough to get a reasonable picture of what is going on. You should be able to tell at that point if it’s worth pursuing.

[@fromthefarmvideos6411]

Those are excellent rifles. Best kept secret in the firearms world.... I have one in .223 as well. Shoots almost everything MOA or under. Handloads get even better. I do my load development in .5gr increments starting from the middle of the range and go up. I like having the velocity. I have no need for an underpowered load. Then seating depth etc.. Like the approach shown here as well. Redo this test with 30 cold bore shots... That would take days Im sure!! Nice work, thanks for putting this together.

[@Okrifleman]

@@fromthefarmvideos6411 I’ve really been wanting to do the cold bore test. It seems like a big job but would be very interesting.

[@greybone777]

Sometimes primers have more effect on groups than a couple of 10ths of grains of powder

[@littledaddynesbit4193]

...that was really interesting video, thank you!. I'm a target shooter and I suppose I should be interested in ES and SD's, but I'm not. My ladder tests usually start about 1.8grn below max and go in 0.3grn steps for .223. I'll usually find 2 nodes for accuracy, then I'll go 0.1grn either side and see how flat it is. Then is seating depth. Always amazed at how different rifles react to powder / bullet / primer / seating combinations!

[@Okrifleman]

@@littledaddynesbit4193 you’re welcome. I’m glad you found it interesting. From what I have seen extreme spread doesn’t seem to make that much difference at 100 yards. It’s my understanding that at longer distances it becomes a much bigger factor. So many things to try but that’s what keeps it interesting.

[@jamespollard1670]

Low powder case fill generally will cause higher ES , SD . The medium to max loads will generally have the best ES , SD

[@Okrifleman]

@@jamespollard1670 I did not realize that. I’ve always just dropped a grain or two below maximum and left it at that.

[@jamespollard1670]

I learned this from shooting cast bullet loads where the case fill is very low . The loads could be accurate but the ES ,SD would be bad . A good case fill is a consistent load and generally a better SD because the powder level / position is the same when the primer goes off .

[@Okrifleman]

@ that makes sense. I haven’t had a chronograph until just recently so I didn’t know my numbers were so bad.

[@CoachKalu]

I suspect that 'flyer' in your blue group was probably (accidentally) loaded to minimum charge weight. I'll bet transferring it to the pink group would put it right in the mix. Just my $.02, - Jace

[@Okrifleman]

@@CoachKalu you are a genius. As soon as I read this I knew you were right but I measured the target to make sure. That wild shot would have landed right in with the group from the red target. Thanks for pointing that out. Unfortunately for you I need you to watch all my other videos so you can figure out all my other screw ups. Thanks again.

[@wdtaut5650]

I did something similar with my 350 Legend. I wanted to try copper bullets, so I made some loads from min to max with two powders. First groups, min load, were high and right. As velocity increased, groups got tighter and moved down and left - same point of aim, no scope adjustment. Finally, second powder, mid range load, first shot dead center bullseye. Second shot, 4 o'clock touching bull, third shot between first and second, total about 3/4 inch, 100 yards. Good enough for me. I stopped right there. Why are lower velocity shots high? Why do the groups move left at higher velocity? Must be barrel harmonics, just a guess.

[@Okrifleman]

@@wdtaut5650 that’s very interesting. I would have guessed you’d get similar results with any rifle yet you got the exact opposite. It must be the barrel. Very interesting.

[@timezone4907]

Can primer burn be measured? How about differences in primers from the same batch can that be measured by burn rate or burst force? Lastly primer metal thickness hardness weakness?

[@Okrifleman]

@@timezone4907 definitely above my pay grade. It’s my understanding the benchrest primers get that designation because they are a little more uniform so it makes sense that all those things you listed could be a factor.

[@greybone777]

Match primers address most inconsistencies. Remington primers seem very consistent but different years, different sizes make virtually everything variable. This is why when reloading you work up and test each batch of powder and primers. I've also found batches of projectiles that were inconsistent in weight which will also play hell with groups.

[@Okrifleman]

@ with primers being so difficult to find all I have are CCI. I have been seeing more and more primers so I’ll have to pick up a few others to mess with. Thanks

[@stubs80x11]

I see you attributed the low left to a charge weight error. I know you don't want to be too quick to call a flyer but being honest about flyers both ways is good. How many more shots to you believe it would take for that one shot to become apart of the group.... probably never would so it's ok to dismiss, IMO. Shooting new brass will not help with good ES/SD. Same with group size ES. Switching to a different primer can do good for ES/SD. Primers have a bigger impact than many believe, especially in smaller cartridges. Was the follow up group/s with your now once fired brass? Seems the SD is better in that one. Lots of ways to go about reloading/load development. And the needs of said load can dictate that as well. Like you said for hunting, may bot need all the trail and testing as many deer have fallen to iron site pie plate accurate rifles. First video I've seen on the channel and look forward to checking out more. I'm very into reloading, whether I know what I'm doing or just making myself ask more questions, I love to tinker.

[@Okrifleman]

@@stubs80x11 it’s funny that being honest with ourselves can be so difficult. I’m not positive about that “flyer.” There’s so many variables. I’m using CCI primers. I have a few Remington primers so I could give those a try. Even that final group at the end was with new full length sized brass. My favorite part of reloading and shooting is the tinkering. So we have that in common. Thanks a lot for watching and I hope you find something of interest on my channel.

[@Lowballinoutdoorz]

Awesome

[@Okrifleman]

@@Lowballinoutdoorz thanks

[@reloadingfun]

I don't think that anything you do at the bench is causing the high extreme spreads. what I've seen over the last 8 years recording velocities, when you have the right load i.e. powder weight and seating depth, the extreme spreads are lower.

[@Okrifleman]

@@reloadingfun that’s exactly what I want to hear. I’ve only had a chronograph for a few months so I didn’t realize my ES was so high.

[@johanneslaxell6641]

As a hunter I went to the store, bought what he had (Norma), tested and went hunting. If it hits it hit, if it misses it misses 🤭🤣.

[@Okrifleman]

@@johanneslaxell6641 that’s been working pretty well for a long long time. I don’t think there’s that much difference between the most accurate handload and the worst factory ammo. A couple inches maybe? Not a big deal when you’re shooting at a deer.

[@johanneslaxell6641]

@Okrifleman My "birdslayer" (Tikka T3 Varmint SS, .222Rem) shoots ~35mm (1¼") groups at 100 meters/yards with factory ammo (Sako/Lapua/Norma). That's good enough for me 😜...

[@Okrifleman]

@ that would be more than good enough for me. I’ve never had a Tikka but I hear nothing but good things about them.