Hoppe's Democracy: The God That Failed

[@percyblok6014]

In no way, form or fashion should any government employee be able to vote. PERIOD.

[@Epistemophilos]

"He has no fear of continuing to be spineless." What a great put-down!

[@glennmiller9768]

5:40 "Governments are designed to be unaccountable." Truer words were never spoken!

[@Macheako]

It is interesting isn't it. How in a Democracy....there is no concern about one's "Competence In Voting"....yet it's just ALWAYS believed that...."The Best Decisions Are Happening In A Democracy"..... Because of *reasons*

[@soffren]

The wisdom of crowds is a powerful fallacy

[@Macheako]

@@soffren it has it's place in the world....we just forgot where everything goes I guess.

[@fatrick9001]

All of the basic underlying beliefs underlying democracy are absurd.... It isn't even "rule by the people" as we're first indoctrinated to believe. Relative open entry to joining the political ruling elite =/= "rule by the people". The voting ritual isn't a form of real representation, it's just a negative-selection process in that it panders to the "lowest common denominator" as Jayant Bhandari puts it.

[@deathbycognitivedissonance5036]

Great talk. Thank you Jeff. Thank you Mr. Bhandari.

[@tricksyhobbitses1695]

Jeff is kicking ass and taking names lately with his speeches.

[@iconologist]

Agree.

[@ZomboJoe]

Jayant is an excellent thinker, his Capitalism & Morality conference is one of the best conferences.

[@gamer-ff6mh]

@David Meller His theories are correct the way he presents in this forum. However, in most of the others, he seems to really lose it in his anger. It is quite understandable. After I read Hoppe, I went into a sort of depression about my country... It's really horrific what is happening in India. And nothing I tell my fellow Indians brings any sense to their thoughts. I don't know why. They just cannot grasp it. They are too tribalistic maybe. Too brainwashed. Professor Hoppe is not really popular. They think he is just another thinker. The role models for Indians are Keynes, Krugman, Chomsky, etc. Mobile phones have penetrated into the poor populace. But the tech is being used to rig the elections towards further leftist notions. I am amazed and depressed at the same time about how people are duped by this democratic racket.

[@Concerned_one]

@@gamer-ff6mh what’s your opinion on modi?

[@EliasRoy]

Renato Moicano brought me here 😂😂

[@MindandQiR1]

Wow, perfect! I just bought and started reading this great book!

[@UmaROMC]

The problem with 'restricting the vote to intellectuals and thinkers as much as possible' is clear to me: LOOK AT OUR 'INTELLECTUALS' right now. Furthermore, who would decide who is intellectual enough for suffrage? I'm an industrial electrician. Last Friday, I was on a roof, alone, pulling cable for a new siren loop, in the rain, listening to Man, Economy and State. I may or may not be of above average intelligence, but intellect is surely not the measure of wisdom. If wisdom were so easy to detect and select we would not have any of these problems in the first place, because we could just put those Enlightened Ones in charge directly instead of adding extra steps. That still sounds like a form of totalitarianism or 'soviet' to me man. How about this for an answer: there is no answer. Building a stable society is impossible because change is inherent to both our environment and human action itself. Like anything, society must be continually built and maintained. Enlightened monarchy is just one bad roll of the genetic dice away from totalitarianism. Democracy is just a generation of soft, socialist fools or maddened fascist hounds away from the same.

[@LawrenceTimme]

Physical removal squadron checking in 🚁🚁🚁🚁🚁🚁

[@neeltheother2342]

Will we ever see the Mises Institute republish Democracy? It's great to see an audio book version in the works, but we need this book *read* more widely!

[@lencumbow]

I read the book years ago. Hoppe makes a good case that Monarchy is superior to Democracy. The basic idea is that democratic leaders have little incentive to nurture society, so they loot their country indiscriminately - leading to growing corruption and eventual collapse. Leaders of Monarchies loot as well, but since they see their countries as largely their personal property they are better stewards of their countries; they are not as inclined to kill their personal golden goose - since they expect to pass that goose on to their descendants (something that leaders of democracies are not as likely to be able to do). At a more fundamental level, Hoppe reaches the above conclusions based on (among other things) the Misesian axiom that the principle of private property is fundamental to a sustainable society. People are more inclined to care for their own property than the property of others (or owned by nobody/everybody - such as the commons). So, if everything is owned by somebody, everything will be maximally cared for.

[@lencumbow]

​ @Surfing with Aristotle > The bullseye is how to remove the ability of making money out of being involved with the public offices... Article 1, Section 8, Item 6... right words are there, but not being used... To quote Adams: "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." Your solution depends on some magical mass adherence to words on a piece of paper. That only works if the people are generally good, decent, moral (and arguably religious). In the long run, that doesn't work because words on a piece of paper cannot guarantee the very condition that makes those words effective. It's a circular paradox. So, the only sure (albeit unlikely) way solve the real problem is to reduce and then eliminate the power of government. To paraphrase Washington, government is like fire. Sure, you can theoretically control a fire by throttling its fuel supply (money), but as Jefferson said, governments only tend to grow larger. It is the height of hubris to believe that we can control such growth. History has proven otherwise. We have to put the fire out. In other words we have to stop believing that we can control it, and then we have to put out the fire by completely ending our belief in the fairy tale of the legitimacy of political power. This is a tall order for most people. And, it's probably completely antithetical to human nature. We are, after all, genetically predisposed to believe in a higher power of some kind. That higher power has always been some form or combination of deity and secular authority. So, in the end, there is probably no good answer, but I think it's important to ask the questions and consider the trade-offs.

[@lencumbow]

@Surfing with Aristotle Ok. I'll readily agree with you that our monetary system is a fraud and that that an honest money system would go a long way to fixing things. But an honest money system ultimately still depends a moral (and educatable) people. I think we're way beyond that.

[@timsteinkamp2245]

@Surfing with Aristotle I was amazed how fast Patty Hearst was brainwashed by her captors. Going through life I see it all over. Boot camp, law degrees, TV. We even let our government actively do it to us. It must be a flaw in the human mind, but I hate to think we are flawed. Some may consider me brainwashed as I use the gift from Jesus of the Holy Spirit and ask for wisdom, understanding and compassion.

[@timsteinkamp2245]

@Surfing with Aristotle I agree. it has become gray. As long as they are willing to discuss it and understand the hurt of the stolen then we can move forward. I always thought it odd how people would say it is not stealing because insurance will pay for it. I and my friend would not take government benefits but I encouraged him to apply for every thing he could get in his medical issues. But the marriage contract is a complete rip to single people. If you get married you get to have a tax right off house keeper. You get to double your deduction. Now men don't even have to claim the wife's children as his own since he can use DNA to disallow the child support. If it is not his.

[@indobalkanizer6557]

@@lencumbow giving voting rights to everyone equally destroyed the good qualities of democracy

[@vannboseman5600]

Fun interview for me. Bhandari's views reinforced Dutton's and Hopkins' views on Indian entrepreneurs in Great Britain. His views again remind me of Dutton concerning the US being a new version of England reinforcing the idea for me.

[@ouss]

link?

[@PeterQuentercrimsonbamboo]

Excellent interesting session - thanks muchly -

[@coconutvirus2225]

I am here because of Money Moicano

[@Porzingi]

The book sucks

[@homewall744]

Liberty > Democracy. Democracy is fine IF AND ONLY IF government first must preserve the people's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[@proudlibertarian4979]

But that's the problem, government is never or at best rarely preserving those things. And the few times it is, it probably has more to do with the nature of that constitution. Secessionist democracy might be a genuine alternative, where if a group is not content with a leader, they simply vote to secede from that nation. But otherwise democracy is an expensive folly that has only been "sustainable" because of humanity escaping the Malthusian trap and rapid technological growth. But, as this pandemic has shown, it's leading us into serfdom/zombie apocalypse.

[@d68st90]

lol tell me one government that does this!

[@ItsMeChillTyme]

@@proudlibertarian4979 Even a secessionist in nature democracy has problems with vote weights. The vote of the local corner crackhead is the same weight as the one from an entrepreneur or a doctorate physicist or a doctor. This is the fundamental problem with democracy which the democracy vouchers view as an extremely good thing. And anything derived from a decision based on "this number bigger than other number therefore its correct" is fundamentally a dictatorship of the bigger number over the smaller number in general. Realistically of course its a dictatorship of the few elected over everyone.

[@alfrednewman292]

Bullshit, democracy is never fine. Get a brain.

[@MaximusWolfe]

Nice intro song. Age of Quarrel is a masterwork.

[@Clay_Montgomery]

Appropriate intro for this subject.

[@brunopbch]

This title and this intro song makes me feel like I took steroids.

[@d68st90]

Esse é ancap! hehehehhe

[@Clay_Montgomery]

Great song! ‘We Gotta Know’ by the Cro-Mags a 80’s Hare Krishna hardcore punk band from nyc.

[@Clay_Montgomery]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZqfRqJ2AbLSkiM0

[@timsteinkamp2245]

@@Clay_Montgomery Curious as to why they are "Hare Krishna" ? Does it distinguish type of punk? Thanks for the link.

[@Clay_Montgomery]

@@timsteinkamp2245 they happened to believe in the philosophy and dogma of the Hare Krishna religion. It is in the lyrics of the songs but it’s not a specific sub genre of punk or hardcore. Just their way of thinking and looking at the world. Vegetarian, karma, etc.

[@CPubi]

amazing book. looking forward to the audiobook. the ones on youtube are garbage!

[@Stayhungry-StayHumble1997]

Here cuz of MONEY MOICANO

[@carpediemjonah8110]

Back in the late 1960's, I worked in a 3rd world country for two years. The petty corruption was open and, transparent. Government officials would ask for "dash" openly. Dash was a common term for, what can you offer me now to process your request? Persons with government jobs expected to paid a dash, or you might wait days or weeks for your paperwork to be processed. The oligarchs wee not entrepreneurial. They obtained monopoly over a resource because they were members of the ruing family or or clan. Yes. Their incomer per capita was much lower than it was during the colonial rule.

[@denys8283]

Not much as change. Governments are auction for favors. It's hard to believe Governments have manage to convince people that the productive sector needs a non productive monster in order to become productive. Democracy as become freedom's cancer.

[@imulippo5245]

Judging democracy purely on pragmatic terms, it absolutely works since most people are happy to participate in a coercive system where they either win or lose in a short term.

[@soffren]

Most people are far from happy.

[@wayneandrews1022]

Jayant really nailed Trudeau, and it’s gotten immeasurably WORSE since then. Happily, his departure is imminent.

[@zofe]

Democracy & Republic depend firstly and mostly on the Average/Median/Typical IQ.

[@peterv1054]

A based Indian

[@soffren]

THE based Indian

[@jesuschristislord77733]

Vedic Dharma monarchy before Kali-Yuga was and is the best system possible.

[@Concerned_one]

What the hell is even “Vedic Dharma Monarchy”?

[@jesuschristislord77733]

@@Concerned_one you can just incarnate in that time and see for yourself.

[@Concerned_one]

@@jesuschristislord77733 that sounds like a lot of work. Can’t you explain it to me yourself?

[@malice9720]

I like the Highlander system better. There can be only one.

[@modelmark]

If the best people left for the UK, you would expect the UK to have gotten better, but it also gotten worse. There is also the effect that each libertarian believes his society is the worst.

[@timsteinkamp2245]

I was thinking the same. Instead of going down the hole in their country they go to others to bring them down? I have to say that America isn't what I thought it was as an adolescent. A grand experiment, destined to fail?

[@kewlbeone5949]

Jeff has come miles

[@Tenebrousable]

Bitcoin fixes this. The government will lose it's ability to grant favours when people start accumulating bitcoin.

[@ItsMeChillTyme]

People thought when we transition from closed rule of monarchy to open rule of democracy with govt. numbers and transactions and statistics more public that the govt. won't do anything bad and they still did. This is problem fundamental with power and the ability or rather inability of the masses to deal with it.

[@AtlasFullsun]

Bitcoin doesn't fix this. Bitcoin integrity relies on honest majority of hashing power.

[@Tenebrousable]

@@AtlasFullsun It doesn't rely on them beign honest. The argument is, BTC doesn't allow earning trough dishonesty. It could be argued, even now, that if you're prepared to attack just to destroy it, spend all the money to do it? CCP, even combining with USA governments? They run out of silicone and energy. They can't afford it.

[@AtlasFullsun]

@@Tenebrousable If anyone controls more than 50% of mining power in the bitcoin network, they can break it. It's a technical theorem. There are certain things he still can't do. But what what he can do is already plenty devastating. en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses#Attacker_has_a_lot_of_computing_power

[@soffren]

It was supposed to, but central banks are now stacking BTC and common people will never have access

[@livenotbylies]

There is no peaceful transfer of power. There never has been. Total mythical beast. An oligarchy can peacefully change its own skin suit, and that is about it. An actual transition of power is forceful, by definition

[@Stabu]

Great discussion. I truly wish the libertarian project wouldn't currently feel quite so hopeless. Almost every country worth living in (i.e. pretty much the West) is getting worse and worse, and you can feel it whenever you're staying anywhere in North America or Europe. Even Eastern European countries that truly have a hatred of communism are slowly sliding down into the pit of social democracy and that's far from the worst that can happen...

[@gamer-ff6mh]

True. Store money in small states like Singapore, UAE, Monaco, etc.

[@Shamino1]

Once Libertarian scholars and public speakers begin to discuss beyond materialism and discuss the issue with corporate culture *in conjunction with* democratic-liberal government culture this can happen. Right now the Libertarian sounds ring hollow, as almost no Libertarian ever seeks to answer how the current property-accumulator elites do not simply monopolize by raw force in a Libertarian system. It is fine to say that big companies are wasteful and rely on the government to maintain their wasteful ways, but never how in a Libertarian system those who have accumulated that property via theft/corruption/immoral and unethical market practices do not simply become autocrats once Libertarian policies are enacted.

[@peterv1054]

Für Gott, Kaiser und Vaterland!

[@keithyco4009]

What about culture? Western culture has been eviscerated.

[@milahu]

#TaxationIsTheft #MobRule #MajorityVote

[@billmelater6470]

I'm so glad I've run into this. I disagree with Hoppe's assertion about Monarchy (not entirely mind you), but It's good to be able to see how dangerous Democracy is. It's more important to have rule what can't be voted on than what can be, but people tend to believe that putting something to a vote inherently makes the matter fair. Then you have the delusion that everyone having a vote means that everyone has equal say and consent. Oh, but it gives us "choice". Well, I'm sorry to say that just as there are more ways to do something incorrectly, there are more bad choices than good ones.

[@timsteinkamp2245]

Like the fact it takes two thirds to change the Constitution but only a majority to ignore it?

[@krishnanunnimadathil8142]

I'd be careful with Jayant Bhandari's opinions since he comes across as a Nostradamus-like figure predicting certain doom and gloom, especially in relation to India. The problem is that he frames his arguments in terms of making comparisons between countries as opposed to the peoples within them. While sympathetic to his observations about the perils of the welfare state, the apocalyptic scenario seems a bit too far-fetched. Yes, the results of welfare statism so entrenched in India have been cataclysmic for the Indian people. How do we know? 75 years after independence, Indians in India have a per capita income of USD 2,300 per annum. The same Indians outside India, at 35 million bigger than Australia, have a per capita income of USD 50,000+ per annum. And they both started off at the same point. The inference Jayant seems to want to make is that India is a bad country because Indians are a bad people, which is false. Indians are a highly productive, demonstrably capable people who have been let down by entrenched socialism. His prose seems to be aimed at the lowest common denominator of taunts at the Indian people with bits of wisdom enveloped in waves of meaningless rhetoric. "India will need a millennium before getting the Western sense of ethics"? As an Indian, I would doubt this is anything to hope for. I have worked in the West and I have seen far too many bums with ties behind desks than I would care to count on my fingers. I listened to the whole talk since I wanted to know the depth of Mr. Bhandari's thesis. Yes, India got socialist and that is bad. It is a continuing error afflicting us. But that's about it. His sweeping remarks about the Indian attitude to work, innovation etc are way off target and would fit a church of very low IQ followers. And he premises good government as based on "moral values", which is objectively wrong. Moral values are essentially opinions and they vary from place to place and from culture to culture. Governance is an administrative task; an economy is supposed to be an amoral device to enable value transfers between individuals. Morality is antithetical to the proper functioning of efficient markets. If he cared to be specific about what moral values were being violated, he's have something to go on with. Just sweeping statements about the absence of "moral values" just puts in the same pulpit as sermon chiefs in Iran who blame the earthquakes in Iran on women dressing immodestly! If he were to say, "property rights are weak in socialist countries", then that is something. The whole "moral values" trope is the schtick of a charlatan.

[@AF-we1zc]

What's a "bobo?"

[@TilveranWrites]

According to Google: 'Bobo is a portmanteau word used to describe the socio-economic bourgeois-bohemian group in France, the French analogue to the English notion of the "champagne socialist". '

[@ronpaulrevered]

My least favorite book from Hoppe. It's the only one I couldn't finish.

[@neeltheother2342]

How come you can't finish it? And which one is your favorite?

[@ronpaulrevered]

@@neeltheother2342 Economic Science and the Austrian Method, The Economics and Ethics of Private Property, and Socialism vs. Capitalism are my favorite books of all time, and all by Hoppe. I like them so much because they are dense with knowledge; Every sentence seemed like it was a Truth claim in those books, but Democracy: The God that Failed just wasn't like those and kept putting me to sleep.

[@larrysmith2636]

Change title to Yada, yada, yada.

[@Concerned_one]

You don’t agree with these arguments? Why?

[@Stevexnycautomotive]

It call comes from India. Jesus christ the freemasons lodge man give it to you.