Mixing WWII RAF British Standard Colours using ICM Paints

[@MannsModelMoments]

Was this useful? Should I do more of these? If so, what should they be? Let me know below!

[@bp8339]

Absolutely Alex, crack on. I enjoy all your informative content.

[@chuckhardin1936]

Your tutelage is clear, concise and straightforward. It's obvious you researched your information, and have practically used it as well. The majority of your subscribers are here specifically for your modeling knowledge. So if some addle pated, miniscule minded individuals with nothing better to do with their time than to insult k knowledgeable people, the greatest majority simply treat them as a nice breeze. It's there, but lacks substance.

[@laszloharsanyi8320]

absolutely. I have no aversion to mix paints from a more "basic" color range (I do WW2 British armor and Mike Starmer's colour mixes are pretty much a must to do for them) but I feel a bit neglected by the companies which spares this effort. A decent handheld colorimeter is way cheaper than a full set of these paints, so IMHO it should be THEIR duty to paint samples, measure it and even in a free online colour finder calculate a close match for the real colours. Thank you for your effort, even if I probably won't use these paints. (However, if you have a lot of free time on your hand and do the same with the Ammo ATOM paints...)

[@fizzyridertoo]

Thanks for this info, which I have printed out and stuck in my ICM paint box. Any thoughts on RAF cockpit green?

[@MannsModelMoments]

@fizzyridertoo that's Aircraft Grey Green - BS283

[@bradwolfgang1037]

I do the same thing except with acrylic craft paint from the local hobby store ( in many cases less than $2 ) I first go to Home Depot, Lowe’s and Menards to get a wide variety of FREE paint sample cards ( in some cases nearly 100 color card samples ) I then “sort” them into the color that I want for my model. I then just experiment with the craft paint until I get really close to desired color card sample. I add some other ingredients to toughen up the acrylic paint, depending on where it will be used. It’s really fun, relaxing….and most important it CHEAP. I can paint several models for less than $5. The custom mixed hobby paints are so grossly over-priced as to be ridiculous. Great video you should do more, I really enjoyed it.

[@Steve_8341]

With all due respect Alex, if I can be honest, upfront, and Frank 😂 ….fantastic video, and truly appreciate all you do for the community. I’m sure you lost a subscriber but was definitely worth it. Keep on keeping on.

[@gavanwhatever8196]

4:52 "These Mk I Hurricanes" Of which, two are actually Spitfires... Point taken about the colour though. There's very little difference between the two colours. Just the other day I bought a Mr Hobby RAF Dark Green and it just looked brown to me. Just as the sample you showed earlier did.

[@MannsModelMoments]

I meant to say Mk I Hurricane ad Spitfires, but when recording somehow just abbreviated that to "Hurricanes"! By the time I realised I thought I'd just leave it in to see how many people noticed too! 😀

[@davidorr6627]

​@@MannsModelMoments Don't worry. I've seen Netflix documentaries where the commentary is talking about Spitfires, and they show a Hurricane.

[@MannsModelMoments]

@@davidorr6627 Yes, but they also tried to convince people that Cleopatra was black, so that's a VERY low bar to be compared against! 😀

[@mariosaliba8644]

Dear Alex this was awesome. You always come up with something different but genius .Please give us some more. Many many thx

[@MannsModelMoments]

@@mariosaliba8644 thanks!

[@psychodermix]

I love the science and real examples of photos

[@gleggett3817]

It's a while since I had to do anything with colour space measurements but I think you're doing a better job of explaining it than my colleagues did.

[@MannsModelMoments]

Thanks!

[@glencwilson]

You had me at 19th C Luddite! 😁 Enjoy these videos as they are informative and do help. I have moved to "that looks right" rather than tracking down and purchasing a specific colour shade for just one kit.

[@MannsModelMoments]

Glad to help!

[@IndyR1Simon]

Alex, very interesting. Having just come back to the hobby and seemingly always needing another new paint for the smallest part, I’ve been mixing my own for these little jobs and have been pleased with the results. This type of content is always welcome 👍

[@MannsModelMoments]

Have fun!

[@JohnMckeown-dl2cl]

I did enjoy this and found it a good subject. I agree with a previous comment and would like to see color mixing examples for other color schemes.

[@MannsModelMoments]

You got it!

[@ragomer]

Yes & Yes, more please, great stuff!

[@MannsModelMoments]

OK! 😀

[@vladchek9382]

Another Great Analysis/Review of ICM paints / mixtures to match RAF colors! Impressive knowledge of the subject! Nice review of RAF colors of WWII era! It would be great to see another video of yours with applicable ICM paints/mixtures to match color schemes, either Luftwaffe, Soviet, US, Japan AF of WWII era, if you have plans to do so...

[@MannsModelMoments]

Ok, thanks for that, I better get on with it!!

[@chrisflowers6479]

Thank you for the great vid. It's nice to see someone take the time and effort to explain something in great detail which I found very useful. Cheers 👍

[@MannsModelMoments]

@@chrisflowers6479 you're welcome!

[@TheBez1965]

I found this very helpful Alex , I have the icm set and struggle to think what the correct colour could be ,

[@MannsModelMoments]

Glad it was helpful!

[@montewatson9079]

Thank you so much for this video. I really came to like ICM paints in general, and this type of video is a fix for some of the shortcomings in WWII aircraft color matching. I would really like to see something similar for IJN and USN aircraft as well!

[@whtalt92]

The M-485 Blue-Grey used on USN from late 1941 to 1943 (when they switched to the 4 tone scheme) is very close to a faded PRU Blue. So that's one out of the way :)

[@grahamcoxon1071]

Thankyou for the time you took to do this video Alex, found it very informative and easy to follow. Please do more like this.

[@MannsModelMoments]

Thanks, will do!

[@desolation_angel]

This is extremely helpful. 👍

[@MannsModelMoments]

Glad to hear!

[@TD-ni9vk]

Very helpful. Thank you!

[@MannsModelMoments]

You're welcome!

[@whotube220]

Thanks for this video. I found it very useful for application in mixing other brands. Unfortunately the ICM 80 pack is unavailable down under. It was previously available but appears to have been swept up by price conscious buyers very quickly. The only way to get it now is from EU sellers with ridiculous shipping costs. Hopefully ICM will make more available around the world soon - their local conditions permitting. On an unrelated note, I take it none of the photographic originals used in your presentation were recolored monochrome? Apologies if I missed this in the presentation itself. We are very fortunate to have two WW2 aircraft (Bf 109G-6 and Spitfire Mk. IIa) in the Australian War Memorial still in their original *unaltered paint. (*Unaltered does not take into account previous UV exposure related fading).

[@MannsModelMoments]

Hopefully! I think it's sold out in a lot of places right now - hopefully that means a lot of adoption!

[@dgoodhew]

Hello This is incredibly useful and would love to see you extend it to other eras and countries... luftwaffe 1938 - 1945 would be most welcome...

[@The_Modeling_Underdog]

Excellent video, Alex. One minor quip in a lengthy prose: the FAA colour values you mixed for the EDSG and Dark Slate Grey seem to be closer to the ones used by Du Pont for the export aircraft rather than the British Standard colours. Even when taking into consideration the smaller size of the Supermarine Spitpallette and the notorious fading abilities (fantastic chance to weather something) of the originals, the colours seem too contrasting and rich. Reminds me of the Wildcat restored a few years ago in full Du Pont FAA colours. On the other hand, I'm talking from memory and haven't built an FAA machine in a long, long time so I may be in the wrong here, thinking the original BS colours were more subdued. The mention of the Luddites gave me a long, hearty laugh. Called that a proper historian, once. He considered anecdotal sources more important than systematic data collection. Alas. My learned brother never got the reference. That name... If it's the same bloke I think it is, he got ejected from my Fcbk groups a few years ago. No digital sealclubbing other fellas for the sake of it. One may be entitled to its opinion, but the rest of us have the privilege of utterly disregarding said opinion on the grounds of it being moot. There's three RAF machines in three different schemes on my calendar for the 2025 season. This is going to come in handy when picking the paints to be used. No vitriol, today. Thanks for taking the time in making this video, mate. Cheers.

[@MannsModelMoments]

I'm actually re-visiting this video as I think (well, I know now!) that I can do better as well as answer a lot of the questions about how I go about this that came up from this video

[@The_Modeling_Underdog]

@@MannsModelMoments That'd be wonderful. Keep us posted, please. Cheers.

[@grahamgreen4522]

Hi Alex. Enjoyed the video and it has helped me. Have you done a video on paint modulation as I am unsure about this.

[@MannsModelMoments]

@@grahamgreen4522 no but it's definitely something I will do

[@Aaron-ShaMelBo100]

Yes.. Great .. think you should do more like these.. I’m a fan of ICM

[@MannsModelMoments]

More to come then!

[@Aaron-ShaMelBo100]

@ Excellent. I have a few Airfix models and want to know the equivalent ICM paints for them. I have a Airfix A1374 1/35 Cromwell tank Mk.IV and Minimart 35332 1/35 British Tank Crew.. Can you do a ICM paint conversion for them? In due course I will let you know what other kits I have. Your knowledge is valuable. So thank you 🙏

[@Christiane069]

Yes, I like this kind of video. You are doing a good job. Forget about the trolls. I am new to your channel, do you use Tamiya and Vallejo paints?

[@MannsModelMoments]

I use a LOT of different paints! Tamiya and Vallejo have been staples of mine for years, but I find myself using them less lately

[@Christiane069]

@@MannsModelMoments OK, thanks for the feedback. Any reasons for the change or you just like to try new things.

[@MannsModelMoments]

@@Christiane069 Part of my modelling journey! I used to use enamels, then switched to Tamiya acrylics for spraying, then a mix of Vallejo and Tamiya depending on need. Recently I've mainly switched mainly to Outlaw paints for airbrush and ICM for brush painting, driven by speed, coverage etc, but will use whatever I feel is best for the given circumstance

[@flightis3dollars]

Useful. Thanks.

[@MannsModelMoments]

Glad you think so!

[@johndillon8051]

Alex, since the topic is ICM paints, I thought I would chime in on their latest announced paint sets. One is tailored to their new "Flak Bait" kit and the other to WWI German aircraft. The Flak Bait set omits the neutral gray that was used for the undersides of thousands of USAAF planes. This is a really big miss, and I don't know if they expect the modeler to mix the included black and white to get the right shade. The box art shows a Fokker Eindekker (sp?) in clear doped linen. Is that color included? No. Perhaps they expect the modeler to mix white and the light brown (personally, I'd add a touch of yellow as well, but it's not in the set). While mixing paint is second nature to me, I think many are intimidated by it. IMC is doing themselves no favor by issuing incomplete sets.

[@MannsModelMoments]

Yes, I mention this in my "Improving ICM" video

[@niyazali7983]

Hi Alex. I thought this video was great; I don't use the variety of paints specifically mentioned in the video, but I'm sure I can find conversion charts OE for the ones I used (especially with the amount of detail you went into). Not strictly related to the video, but still paint related: I was also wondering, if you don't mind me asking, could we have an update on your cataloguing? I am trying to start (if I can find sufficient MDF...), and was curious about your progress (if you're comfortable sharing). Feel free to say no if I've overstepped any boundaries, and apologies for the waffly comment. Thanks, Niyaz

[@FinsburyPhil]

Ammo's ATOM paints are great acrylic paints but their recent RAF Early War set is way off - with substitute colours that are about as close as ICM's recommendations. Given that they seem to have put decent effort into producing a range of RLM and Russian armour colours, that's especially disappointing.

[@paulhargreaves1497]

Alex needs to do ATOM for sure! Please ......

[@whtalt92]

Now I'm wondering... were you working off the RAF Museum MAP colour chip cards? I have seen Jamie Duff (from Sovereign - Colourcoats) explain by mixing from pigments in (sadly an unlisted) video how fine the pigment ratios actually are. Literally mixing an olive drab from zinc oxide white, black and yellow ochre pigments.

[@MannsModelMoments]

@@whtalt92 Yes and from published LAB values of the BS colours. Together with the excellent reference book "British Aviation Colours of WWII" published by the RAF Museum Hendon

[@gavanwhatever8196]

How were you able to plot all these colours on the L.A.B. chart?

[@MannsModelMoments]

I'll cover that in the next video...

[@nicolasdonval5346]

​@@MannsModelMoments I had the same question, can't wait to see the magic/science behind the graph and figures. I am especially looking for what reference you use for the target paints, I cannot find any consistent data. And, by the way, thank you for all your videos. You are part of what made me going back on to the bench. Cheers!

[@julianmhall]

Great video Alex, which even not being a 'colour scientist' for want of a better phrase, I could follow :) *chuckles* The rude comment Tye Guthrie made reminded me of people who say 'I don't mean to be..' or 'I'm not..' [for example racist] '.. but..' and then go on to be exactly that. A friend at work commented to me once 'Whenever you say ''With all due respect'' I wince'. I asked why and he said 'I know you're about to be very rude very politely.' I never actually /said/ 'you're an idiot' but it was probably /implied/. For example a customer wanted a year's refund.. he hadn't bothered checking his statements for over a year so hadn't realised his attempt to create an account was successful. I said 'With all due respect sir, having given your credit card details to a third party, do you not agree it would have been prudent to check your statements to see if they were billing you?' You said RAF colours were notoriously prone to fading. Were they formulated differently, say to Luftwaffe or even British Army, so faded faster? You mentioned black and white, but are they not /tones/ used to darken or lighten colours, rather than colours in their own right? Regarding mixes in general.. what do you think is the best method to achieve an accurate ratio.. counting brush loads, dropper bottles, or pipettes?

[@MannsModelMoments]

A thoughtful, polite and extensive comment as always Julian, which I'm very happy to devote time to replying to! 😀 Why did RAF paints fade so much? It's a complex topic! For example, Ultramarine blue pigments tend to bleach when mixed with zinc oxide white, which was used a lot since the primary source of titanium white at the time was Norway...which was problematic for the British! So there are complex science reasons (chemical reactions in pigment mixes, ultraviolet bleaching - different depending on use, as PR aircraft would be more at high altitude with more UV exposure and so on, pigment grinding size - Type S was a grinding protocol, not just related to Sky pigment for example) and the more practical reasons - formulation and supply issues due to the war. The Germans were certainly not immune to this, and the reason behind many of their "standard" camos being changed was to relieve pressure on difficulty of supply, especially where pigments contained critical materials like Chromium. Pure black and white are indeed shade and light, but those "pure" colours exist mostly in the digital realm, and in reality our paints often have some hue to them, as I showed in the ICM paint set video for the Humbrol and Revell "whites". As for mixing ratios, someone else mentioned this in a comment, and one of the reasons I went for simple mixes - other than ease of reproduction - was that a small variation has less effect on the final result, whereas a 37:34:17:12 mix needs very precise mixing to achieve that shade, and it's easy to skew it. Mixing 45:55 instead of 50:50 has far less of an effect on the final result, so most methods are ok for a 5-10% variance in what a single volume is. All things being equal (and they rarely are), pipettes would be my preference, but with paint you have to be careful that everything is the same viscosity or they won't be accurate. I think in the real world, "brushfuls" of paint are probably the best compromise, since they're also easier to determine equality with different thickness of paint.

[@davidorr6627]

In your Spitfire tests of the green and dark earth, and also the dark sea greys, the ICM colours on the tops are almost impossible to see in the video. They look almost black. Your custom mixes are much better.

[@MannsModelMoments]

Thanks!

[@pawelpw1161]

This is very educative and interesting :-) But my lazy side makes me ask you what are benefits of ICM paints over competitive brands that have it all already mixed for you and how do you measure exact same amount od drops of each ingedient taking that ICM paints are in regular jars?

[@MannsModelMoments]

@@pawelpw1161 Advantages were covered in my video on the 80 paint set, but beyond those, pre-mixed sets are more expensive and give you one pre-set shade for a colour...which doesn't help you understand the colours or fading effects and so on. Nothing wrong with that, but the possibilities with a generic set and some thought give you more scope - how many artists buy a set of "landscape" or "portrait" colours? Instead, they mix from a base set using their knowledge and experience

[@pawelpw1161]

@@MannsModelMoments Indeed mixing is valuable skill especialy for colours that are used for details and there is no way to use whole 17ml bottle in forseeable future. Best example for me would be Japan WWII cockpit green and post WWII soviet cockpit green. My 2nd question remains, how do you effectively measure same drops of all ingredients :-) Cheers

[@MannsModelMoments]

@pawelpw1161 it's one of the reasons I used very simple ratios - it really doesn't matter what you're measuring with - brushfuls of paint ( which is what I used) are fine - a small percentage difference on a 1:1 or 2:1 ratio is not going to make a meaningful variation in the end result

[@ModelMinutes]

well, now we know :P

[@davidorr6627]

You mention 1044 British Khaki, but you show 1062 when you're mixing the dark earth.

[@MannsModelMoments]

You're quite correct, I don't know why I said 1044, as British Khaki is 1062!

[@davidorr6627]

@MannsModelMoments Paint numbers are a nightmare. Like how Tamiya use different numbers for their acrylics and lacquers.

[@MannsModelMoments]

@@davidorr6627 VERY true! I used to work for a Japaneses company and all of the products were referred to by an alphanumeric code, not a name....😞

[@DanielV42]

May I suggest you don't address the kind of comment we saw at the beginning? They take their time and effort to put those comments, I would rather not give them mine.

[@MannsModelMoments]

@@DanielV42 you can suggest it, and in general I don't, but sometimes there's one that is both timely and relevant for a subject. I don't think any effort was put into the comment - certainly less then both I put into replying to it and what I did thereafter....

[@thetoon50]

Unfortunately as you know you will have 300 comments and 1 rude that’s the one you really remember and unfortunately being on KZbin or similar the idiots have a platform to spout their “ drivel “ Keep up your excellent channel and if they don’t agree “ switch off “ and find something else to moan at

[@MannsModelMoments]

True!

[@Egor-o6y]

thanks that was so helpfull now finally i get my paints for speedfire mk5 from italeri

[@johnandlynn4720]

BS381c/104 isn't RAF Azure Blue. The MAP colour was never included in BS381c and seems to have disappeared after the War. 104 is a dark blue not too far from the old British Rail colour. Any mix matched to 104 wouldn't look anything like MAP Azure Blue.

[@MannsModelMoments]

Well as you can see I mixed to the MAP colour as in the Hendon publication

[@alanrogers8535]

It realy anoys me that the experts cant make the right colours . RAF dark green is different from every manufscturor and even batch runs. Good work on your vid.

[@psychodermix]

Dislike those types of comments the most

[@andreastimper9848]

I liked this video very much. When you want to crate a realistic looking finish, you ought to start with colours that are as close to the originals as possible. How do you calculate the Lab-values? Do you have a colorimeter or photometer? I do mostly build Luftwaffe subjects and thus I have mixed my own colours, but actually by using different brands of paints. All acrylic water based paints mix together very well. I am in the lucky position to have access the original WWII RLM colour chips to work with along with the ones by Merrick et al. and thus am able to quite accurately reproduce them in model colours. As for the scale effect, that‘s just an optical illusion. If we look at the smaller surfaces of a model, they tend to look too dark, because of the background, which normally has a light tone. Putting the same aircraft model in front of a dark background like a photograph of some forest or a black cardboard wil completely remedy this and the colours will appear much lighter and closer to what we see in contemporary photographs or at airshows - sometimes even too light. That‘s just how our eyes and brains work. It‘s called contrast amplification. So there is actually no real reason to lighten your colours for „scale effect“. When comparing the model colours I have with the „real deal“ I had to notice that some of the RLM colours are not reproduced well in model form, especially RLM 65 blue. No paint maufacturer comes anywhere close to the real hues. I don‘t know why that is. It‘s really strange, actually.

[@MannsModelMoments]

@@andreastimper9848 Thanks, though I do disagree a little on the latter point of contrast amplification. It's more a technical discrepancy, but essentially lightening colours IS generally necessary because as you rightly pointed out, most of vision is perceptual, and most people don't build dioranas or vignettes under appropriate lighting conditions, so if you don't account for this, most people will find it "looks wrong"