The Conservative Threat to Democracy (c. 470-465 BCE)

[@MLaserHistory]

! Extra Information & Clarifications ! Sources for all my videos are in the bibliography of my scripts available for free to download on my Patreon. www.patreon.com/mlaser?filters[tag]=script 0:14 As always, dating in the Classical Period is often extremely hard to determine precisely, hence I prefise every date I say with c. If you want to know more about the dating please go read the sources I have footnoted in the script. 2:18 They would have been far more concerned and identified with their demes and their tribe rather than some political movement. These, however, also weren't political parties as such. Look it up on Wikipedia if you want to know more. 4:05 Cimon even named one of his sons Lacedaimonius, meaning 'the Spartan'. 4:27 5:43 Watch my previous video to get the full context. 6:49 It is disputed whether Themistocles met with Xerxes or Artaxerxes. It all depends on the date of his ostracism which we don't know. 8:06 When I say Persian navy in this video I mean the Phoenician navy. Persia, for the most part, used Phoenicians as their sailors and boat builders. 10:24 This entire period of control by Cimon and the conservatives is called the Areopagite Constitution and it is a debated topic by historians as to what extend it actually occurred because there aren't that many sources that attest to its prominence. I clearly went with the side of the debate that states it did occur. 12:33 Look up demes and trittyes if you want to know exactly how the subdivisions of the new tribes were organized by Cleisthenes. 14:14 The strategoi met in a building called the Strategeion located in the agora, and which was originally a temple dedicated to a war hero called Strategos. This is also why the generals where called strategoi. 14:27 Some low rank government offices like finance and religious officials, or some Delian league administrators, were also sometimes elected by popular vote, but their function and power was very narrow and limited, hence, they couldn't effect the government in any major way. The 5th century Athenians made sure that all relevant government positions were elected by lot. 14:54 The chart of the Athenian government is not complete nor is it 100% accurate. We don’t know the exact functions of all the branches of government and to this day historians debate what exactly fell under the jurisdiction of each branch of the government. Also, the system in Athens changed over time and here I tried to present, to the best of my ability, the system that was present in Athens in c. 465 which is different from both newer and older democratic systems of government that existed in Athens. 17:37 This would change later in the century when Athens will introduce payments for taking up government office. But, we will talk about that ones it happens. 20:20 Plutarch mentions Cimon only securing the area of the Dardanelles not the whole of Marmara. But, since cities of the sea of Marmara end up being on the Athenian tribute list in 454, and there are no mentions of Athens conquering these cities by other historians before 454, I concluded that Cimon's expedition into the Dardanelles also involved securing the Greek cities on the coast of the sea of Marmara.

[@beepboop204]

🙂🙂🙃

[@testificles240]

i dont get why the ships were destroyed instead of captured and brought to athens to bolster the number of ships the athenians had... seems like a waste

[@MLaserHistory]

@@testificles240 Honestly, I don't get it either. I tried to look into it and it seems like it was standard practice to destroy Persian ships but not Greek ones. I think the Persian ships were just too different to what the Greeks were using and therefore useless for them, and it was easier and cheaper to make new Greek ships from scratch than to try to reuse/remake the Persian ones to the Greek standards.

[@testificles240]

@@MLaserHistory hmm, interesting. i wonder just what those differences and standards were...

[@MLaserHistory]

@Combinalis com It seems like, if you read the Old Oligarch and Aristotle's Consitution, for the most part they were against it. However, they actually weren't against it as much as you would think. Especially because intially it was still the upper classes that ran in elections because they had the money to be in office, since the office wasn't payed. So, what the conservatievs were actually more against was laws that made it easier for poor people to run in elections, like introducing pay to elected offices. The election by lot wasn't as much of a problem as the kind of people that the lot was choosing from.

[@jtgd]

“Hmm. He wants to ostracize me… but he asked me for his assistance. I must hold myself to virtue, so I’ll write my name “- ostracized former Athenian

[@MLaserHistory]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/sHeZkJJvn6edabc

[@aeiro5390]

I really like the Athenian videos for what it's worth! I also really appreciate your commitment to captioning your videos as a deaf person.

[@MLaserHistory]

I am glad you enjoy the videos and that the subtitles help. They're not always perfect but I try my best.

[@tobias7862]

@@MLaserHistory I love videos about Ancient Greece. Please keep going. Can you make videos about Epirus and Phyrrus or King Phillip V?

[@Ice.wall7]

Every day you make video is good day

[@stephenknizek2651]

I saw squares, and thought Historia Civilis was doing temp work for other channels.

[@MLaserHistory]

Maybe he is, you don't know. Or maybe he was kidnapped and is being held against his will, forced to work on other people's videos.

[@PlerbArmy]

Sorry to say but you are one of the channels I tend to forget about. But it is always these ancient history videos that keep me coming back and I immediately recognize your work. I don't believe I've seen anyone who makes better content about ancient history than you. You, atleast for me, perfectly ride the line between understandability and depth. And the visuals you make contribute massively to this. I also love how you do one of my favorite things history youtubers do and getting other channels in to explain certain things. I feel like in history there is always someone who can explain any one individual thing better than yourself, and also all the good that normally comes from collaborating. Knowing where to use that is one of the biggest signs of a great history channel on youtube!

[@historiaprotempore938]

Bratu please continue making vids about Athens, they are really compelling, intriguing and just awesome.

[@muhammadabdullahhanif8860]

Wow, such cliffhanger. Thank you for making another Athenian history video.

[@-AirKat-]

fr

[@ehk5948]

>Cliffhanger I mean this happened like 2500 years ago...

[@MLaserHistory]

@@ehk5948 I mean, yeah, but do you know what's going to happen next without looking it up? ;) Perhaps, might have to just watch my next video to find out. :D

[@klemziboy1305]

Please continue doing these videos! They are absolute class and it would be a shame to stop their production.

[@faidonc]

How can people not like these??? History channels usually just vaguely mention this historical period, but no channel ever delves into it the way these videos did, especially compared to other historical periods. I absolutely loved these videos, keep making them.

[@andreas4417]

OverSimplified sent me here, in accordance with the prophecy. Keep up the great work.

[@tyonde3973]

Im one of the few that likes the Athens videos more than all of the others so thank you for making them.

[@HeisenbergFam]

Gotta love how casually you returned after 3 months

[@MLaserHistory]

That's what I do :)

[@alek1766]

Hmmm, missing the Historia Civilis music

[@MLaserHistory]

Well, I can't steal everything from him :D

[@smorcrux426]

I really appreciate these videos, I had a lot of trouble every time I tried to understand the history of Athenian democracy, and this video series is definitely helping me a lot.

[@MLaserHistory]

I am very glad to hear it and it's for people like you that I am making this video series. I was just like you, I used be very confused with all the Classical Greek history especially with chronology of events.

[@MakeRetro]

You know, as time goes on, I come more and more to appreciate the appeal of sortition for selecting certain office holders

[@georgios_5342]

Thank you so much for this, I really enjoyed it and I just found out your channel. I appreciate the fact that ancient Greek history is getting some attention and some light shed on it, there are so many things to be learnt from it, in terms of strategy, economy, diplomacy and systems of governance

[@Daniel-mg1lk]

I don’t know why these videos aren’t more popular, this series is class! Love learning about this era of history, love your channel.

[@Xanthippus_i7x]

I do think that this is an absolutely amazing, informational, interesting series! Please continue in the production of this.

[@frederickstabell3796]

Had no idea you had a series on Athens, I'll have to look at the others! This was really well done and I hope you do more, I think modern audiences get rose-tinted glasses about ancient societies, and understanding them in this kind of context is important to remember they were just like us.

[@MLaserHistory]

exactly

[@EduNauta95]

Really appreciate you do these videos even though they’re not popular, they’re really foundational to get strong perspectives on political science

[@ConsumerOfCringe]

People love to downplay Athenian democracy these days as "not real" or "rule by aristocratic slavers", but it's nice to see someone give an actual overview of its functions, innovations and flaws. Ancient Athenian history seems weirdly alike more modern, post renaissance history.

[@fidemporas]

Please, post more often if possible.

[@MLaserHistory]

If possible, I will!

[@georgios_5342]

There's a lot to be learnt from the Ancient Athenian democratic system, and we can clearly see that many of its foundations and institutions are absent from the modern Republics. We should really start second guessing, do we really have a democracy?

[@jakobmucic2865]

Keep doing what you love. 30 thousand people that regularly watch your video is not a small number. You are an amazing youtuber and thank you for your dedication.

[@georgios_5342]

4:16 hah! Even today in Greece we call a consul proxenos, it means "close to the foreigners"

[@Rodzyniastyyyy]

I am currently binge watching all your Hellenic/Athenian videos. Keep 'em coming.

[@visegradi]

Finnaly a channel that explains more about ancient Athens. Great video dude, i'd love to see more!

[@Sam-do4oj]

very interesting, looking forward to the next part!

[@MLaserHistory]

Coming up at some point!

[@andychap6283]

Love this channel and how it covers more obscure topics

[@MLaserHistory]

That's what I try to do :)

[@well_intended_devil]

Yes thank you for the video! It's always great to hear from someone passionate over the subject

[@Tinil0]

I love these videos and am so happy you do them

[@evilmurlock]

Athens is very fun! More vids! Also love the Historia Civilis square charakters, very charming

[@antoniocamargo6641]

I’m probably a bit late, but this videos are awesome!!

[@MattieK09]

I just subbed to nothing new because of this video

[@srikarpamidi1946]

I have no idea why this series hasn’t gotten as many views as your other videos-it’s excellent

[@ericbrito9223]

what an incredible video! I love your content about Athens, I look forward to future videos on the subject!

[@siechamontillado]

This video is awesome, thank you! Please more!

[@captaincrazyhat]

I enjoy these I don’t know what normal well adjusted person wouldn’t want to learn about ancient history!

[@noone4700]

Excellent content!

[@klausbrinck2137]

I will tell it: We LOVE you for these videos !!!!

[@adiytaa]

Love your videos dude

[@radovanwolf593]

Duh we like these videos man, every topic you touch is interesting.

[@sh6361]

great video sir!

[@MLaserHistory]

Thanks!

[@georgios_5342]

10:21 Cimon's invasion of Persia led to the expansion of NATO in Eastern Europe 😂😂😂

[@anon2034]

I like the classical era videos!

[@Derna1804]

The democrats in Athens WERE the conservatives in their political context. Athenian democracy was hyper conservative and violently resistant to social, political and cultural change, which is why the Athenians exiled so many people, why Praxiteles was forced to find buyers for his work elsewhere and why the people of Athens put Socrates to death.

[@kingtryfon5702]

The events you talking about for example the death of Socrates happened after the Peloponnesian war when Athens was pretty much destroyed and democracy was indeed corrupted

[@Derna1804]

@@kingtryfon5702 Socrates died because his students had participated in the Tyranny of the Thirty, which had been recently overthrown. It's not like the practice of ostracism began after the Peloponnesian Wars. Themistocles, Alcibiades, Xenophon, Cimon, Thucydides and many other great Athenians were exiled or killed (you were usually not actually expected to show up for your own execution). It took a lot less than proposing an alternative political system to get in trouble. Pretty much anyone who either succeeded too much or had a military or political failure in their career fell victim. Classical Greek democracy was fraught with the same sort of obscuritanism and paranoia about wreckers of the state that reached the scale of mass murder in the 20th century. In some ancient Greek cities like Corcyra, it did end up turning into a bloodbath. The people of Athens were particularly jealous guardians of their system, and suggesting alternatives or adjustments was dangerous for any citizen. That's extreme conservatism, it's just conservatism with mediocratic characteristics.

[@J-IFWBR]

When ever i see a new athens vid from you, i watch it asap! Realy epic from you to make these, even if views are below average. :)

[@dalsosegno]

LETS FUCKING GOOOO NEW M LASER VIDEO

[@_Channel-ce4vq]

I enoy the simple art style inspired by my favorite youtuber Historia Civilis

[@creighton1766]

Thank you for the awesome video even though you didn't have high expectations for viewership :) It was awesome, highly educational. I think we (USA) could take some lessons from the Athenians to improve our legal system and reduce corruption. Def threw a like.

[@sethheristal9561]

This is phenomenal.

[@Bb13190]

Thanks a lot. I loce classical Athen and Greece. I'm glad to hear you like making them!

[@Klinker1234]

I really like these Athens videos. You’d better keep making them or I am gonna report you to the Areopagus!

[@MLaserHistory]

Ok, you got me, I will :)

[@silesiaball9505]

Great video Have a great Holy Triduum and Easter

[@kalixkatt]

I really like these videos fyi!

[@ghostwalker185]

Thank you for making videos about antique history

[@PetrMoses]

Thanks.

[@energyman100]

interesting how in ancient times, political influence and military background went hand in hand

[@MLaserHistory]

This is was very common yes, but actually in Athens it became even more common during the democracy. This was because the only relevant government position that wasn't elected by lot were the military generals. So if one wanted to be relevant in Athenian politics for a longer time, being a military general was the only way to remain in government office for longer than just one term. This is why literally every relevant politician during the classical era of Athens was also a military general, and some of them were really bad generals at that, they simply just used the office for political purposes.

[@Chief_K]

Democracy is two wolves and sheep deciding what's for dinner.

[@TommyTheGunM99]

Wrong. Democracy is three lambs deciding what to eat for dinner.

[@TitusCastiglione1503]

@@TommyTheGunM99that assumes everyone is literally equal a democracy. The OP recognizes that is not actually true; hence, his quote.

[@MegaUMU]

Ive been craving for some historical content and here it is!

[@Artur_M.]

This time I don't have anything smart to add. I'll just leave a comment for the almighty Algorithm.

[@MLaserHistory]

I appreciate the hustle :)

[@ststclair]

Great video!

[@cookiemuffin3208]

Mans really using the Historia Civilis squares. Or maybe Historia Civilis is using the Lazer History squares? I don't know who came first.

[@MLaserHistory]

Historia Civilis did, I just think all classical era animations should be squares, that's just how it looked at the time :D

[@cookiemuffin3208]

@@MLaserHistory Well, its a good system! Keep up the good work. :)

[@EstonianBro]

Finally, some good phaking food

[@jeice13]

It makes sense to label the "expand democracy" camp as you did but in whatsense were the red camp "conservative" in either a modern or historical sense?

[@MLaserHistory]

I didn't make up the naming scheme, these are the names for the factions that are used in historical literature and I am not about to make up new names when these two are already established. Also, they are conservative because democracy was a completely new thing, a radical thing, oligarchy on the other hand is what Athens had before and it was also the established norm for most Greek city states at the time. Hence, conservatives did what conservatives do, wanting to preserve the older and more established system than the new radical one.

[@jeice13]

@@MLaserHistory interesting. Im not sure how far back that reaches to base it on before they established the voting system but if thats just the accepted academic label it makes sense to use it. It could still be something along the lines of godwins law (everything bad is part of specific bad political label) but it would be from whoever established the standard

[@jurajsoltis5077]

I love these athen videos, hope you keep making them

[@klausbrinck2137]

0:04 Actually devising the trick that would lead the Greeks into a trap, so that they are motivated enough to give their best during the now unavoidable and upcoming naval battle... Fighting with your back against the wall, always brings more, and solely a miracle could save Greece at that moment.

[@yaaaboi1456]

love this

[@ShadowGricken]

You should definitely keep makong these videos

[@adssadassssdsa3582]

Pretty great video

[@alberto2287]

Great content! Ostracism for those who don’t want Athenian videos 😈

[@timothyanderson769]

This video was really fun, and made me want to learn more about Athenian democracy. Unfortunately, I don't have enough background for much of the information to stick to. Some basic intro videos may help us common folk enjoy these videos more.

[@MLaserHistory]

Well, I introduced the democracy in the most simplest way I could and when it comes to history there are two videos preceding this one which you can watch. They are all in the same Athenian History playlist on my channel.

[@merchanttube2036]

For a second I thought this was going to be some kind of late April fools video where everything is a modern political issue reskinned with ancient Greek names

[@ooppen]

Love these Athenian videos!

[@SlipNperiodSlide]

woooo!!! Athens stans represent!!

[@matthewmagda4971]

That water map looks very NES Final Fantasy I.

[@Error-xc9dh]

Historia Civilis vibes

[@Bln-f9u]

Political parties are banned? #based

[@leenverkade]

yeah, I like these videos about Athens too!

[@ninadiamant8937]

👍👍👍👍

[@carlinberg]

Yeah i love the Athenian videos too!

[@thehatofwin]

❤❤❤

[@thedispenser8301]

I like the historia civilis cubes

[@89volvowithlazers]

wait are you talking about the US today ???? whaaaaa outstanding timing .... crystal ball for rent??

[@rct3LP]

Very topical

[@midshipman8654]

I really like these athens videos. there reqlly arent that many going more in depth on youtube on this topic.

[@binbows2258]

good video

[@Alorand]

Shouldn't the Patron tiers have the deity tier on top?

[@MLaserHistory]

Dammit, it does make more sense that way doesn't it. I'll change for the next video.

[@kingtryfon5702]

Please make another video

[@MLaserHistory]

Script for the next video is done, will be out at some point this year.

[@Guy-the-egg]

I am guy the egg

[@cooldude-gb2mq]

Who are you and what have you done with Historia Civilis?

[@MLaserHistory]

What do you mean? I am Historia Civilis ...

[@PerrinCarrell]

This channel is a straight up copy of Historia Civilis

[@MLaserHistory]

Using top down squares to represent people is an animation style that Historia Civilis did not invent nor owns but he did popularize it and innovated on it. I am simply using this animation style for my Athenian empire series because I think it works very well for the topic, and yes, Historia Civilis was the inspiration for this animation style.

[@dethmin173]

cool

[@kakerake6018]

the problem with distributing power vs centralized/oligarchical power is that the common people though way more numerous are far weaker than the Upper class. the upper class will eventually win or get to a position where they dont need to win

[@joejoeington6899]

Historia civilis

[@belstar1128]

Nice ancient democracy is very interesting very different from modern democracy and politics. but still better than what happened for most of history .where you just had kings and nobles controlling everything just because of their ancestors. maybe it was even better than the modern systems in some ways. and we still have and a lot of countries don't have democracy at all today .so ancient Greece and Rome where 2500 years ahead of countries like Russia and china.

[@nicobruin8618]

The Roman Republic was not a democracy in any real sense

[@beepboop204]

🙃🙃🙂

[@crzgfx]

The ingenuity of the reforms attributed to Kleisthenes never cease to amaze me. A tremendous leap in political thought!

[@ethanludwig2603]

Don't think it's a good idea to copy Historia Civilis' art style and presentation to a T; stick with your old style of videos, no need for the squares, will simply make your videos look like a knockoff.

[@MLaserHistory]

A lot of people seem to like it plus I like changing up my video styles. I like doing Historia Civilis style, than extra credit style with the figures without hands, than on camera stuff like my Oxford video. It's boring always doing the one thing and I really like Historia Civilis and think his style works very well for this video series. After all, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Anything from classical history should always just be animated with squares :D

[@ethanludwig2603]

@@MLaserHistory All very good points, and at the end of the day it's your channel so do what you enjoy; that being said, I like your other art styles a lot too and think you can coin it as your own just how Historia Civilis has coined the square style as his own. If I were you, I'd look into partnering with Historia Civilis considering the overlap you two have on videos like these. Personally, I don't find your channels to be exclusive but rather complimentary. Would be cool to have you two recommend one-anothers videos to your audiences, as I find I can't get enough of this kind of content and having more videos to watch is fine by me.

[@MLaserHistory]

@@ethanludwig2603 I would love to collaborate with Historia Civilis but he is a very secretive person. I don't know any historytuber other than one that he has actually talked to and he has never replied to any of my emails.