MLS vs USL | The FUTURE of Soccer in the USA?

Hello everyone and welcome back to American Ultras Talk! Today we discussed the current situation between MLS and USL, including a potential expansion team in Indianapolis, how MLS is trying to kill USL, and much more! Let us know in the comments your thoughts on this topic, do you support MLS or USL more? Make sure to like and subscribe if you enjoy the content and thanks for watching!
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[@Rvbeus]

Good conversation young lads keep making content guys ! Subbed

[@AMERICANULTRASTALK]

Thanks for the kind words and the sub!

[@davidday2373]

Expansion Fees were $30 million just 10 or 12 years ago. When MLS was looking for investment, where were all of these cities/mayors/supporters?? It's $500+ million now.

[@geraldihezuru2178]

I am from Nigeria and I am a football lover I watch all leagues .recently started watching mls,usl and nwsl and I got fascinated by the way it grows faster cos we all know usa is not a football country just recently they got interested in soccer as they call it.first I tot usl was the second division to msl not knowing it’s a league on its own, so I expect msl and usl to come as one decide on merging as one ,let their eve promotion and relegation this will promote football in usa

[@AMERICANULTRASTALK]

It’s nice to see people from different countries watching football in the US! We would love to see MLS and USL merge but sadly it doesn’t seem like a possibility, MLS is too greedy for that and they know at the current rate they’re more than capable of killing USL eventually.

[@Foreverhenryatnyrb]

A merger like the Premier league and championship in England would be ideal but both sides are too greedy.

[@AMERICANULTRASTALK]

Sadly think that ship has sailed, unless USL can pull off a miracle and start gaining popularity to the point where they’re stealing viewers from MLS.

[@geraldihezuru2178]

I agree with you

[@PvtPooter]

Usl has had dozen of teams stolen and you call usl greedy. 😂

[@davidday2373]

Wait, what? Those two leagues have "merged"? What benefit would a merger have for MLS?

[@ronridenour243]

MLS will never ever ever ever agree to merger or pro/rel with USL.

[@AMERICANULTRASTALK]

Unfortunately I agree

[@erickbyarushengo4726]

I agree. Or I would say that MLS will never agree to pro/rel with USL on their own. Meaning that if USSF were to come in, tell the leagues that they have to come with a solution for the best way to improve the growth of the game in this country. But US soccer has basically allowed MLS to do whatever they want. I sure hope that MLS’ decision to give up the oldest tournament is a wake up call for what MLS is doing

[@isaacgogna9856]

It’s baffling the city hasn’t seen Indy 11’s success and the fact that they are already building an MLS standard soccer specific stadium as a way to take the team to MLS. Instead they just want to make a new team and start from scratch????

[@AMERICANULTRASTALK]

Doesn’t make much sense to me.

[@faraznotyou963]

This video was many times better than I expected it to be. Im from the UK and Im amazed how these guys have a lot to say against the way MLS is set up. It’s so bad because they are choosing “right now” over long term success for the league. The real money will come when football is so popular that every town had a team and its own fans and every game is full. All this could happen if they got rid of the current system.

[@AMERICANULTRASTALK]

Appreciate the kind words! A lot of football fans in the US seem to not realize that MLS is trying to monopolize the sport in this country, and the ones that do mostly turn a blind eye to it because of things like the heavily inflated club valuations. Unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be enough USL fans right now to stop what MLS is doing, so implementing promotion and relegation is probably the only hope.

[@erickbyarushengo4726]

@@AMERICANULTRASTALKI do agree that if USL is successful in the pro/rel system that it will help gain traction with the USL. My community will be getting a USL team starting next season in 2025. I was at the Crest and team name reveal a couple of evenings ago. The clubs founder and president mentioned that the team will be in League One. But he told the crowd that depending on the teams performance, they can potentially get promoted into the USL Championship. Now coming across videos here I see that it’s not necessarily confirmed yet that pro/rel will happen. But the announcement to the crowd, maybe there’s anticipation that it will happen

[@davidday2373]

You have no clue what youre talking about. MLS is thinking long-term. That is why we don't have Pro-Rel. That is why the U.S. finally has a sustainable Soccer league. The real money will come when Soccer/MLS breaks through the U.S. sports landscape beyond a "niche" sport/league... and that takes time.

[@davidday2373]

If MLS began with Promotion-Relegation... it would have folded YEARS AGO. And at no point in MLS history has Pro-Rel ever been the right move. Adding Pro-Rel would be like creating a hole in your own ship.

[@erickbyarushengo4726]

@@davidday2373 there’s no denying that MLS would have folded years ago if it introduced promotion/relegation. I actually agree with that. But with the World Cup coming here in 2026. Now’s the time to make bold moves. The MLS is filled with wealthy owners who care about their bottom line. The issue is that when MLS kept expanding, one promise the owners were given is that they would always be in a locked system. We now live in a time where people have become familiar with the game. When I was first started watching the European leagues in 2004/2005, I got confused when the season was coming to an end and the commentators were mentioning relegation. But once I learned about it, I really liked the idea. It helps reward teams who have been playing well to have the chance at a higher league, and be replaced with a team that has done poorly. The game has grown so much over the years/decades. The issue isn’t that there isn’t enough fans of the game in this country. It’s that there isn’t enough fans of this game in this country who are interested in MLS. Why is that? What would get people who follow a club/league in a foreign country interested in MLS or basically US soccer as a whole? Sure, I’m fine with MLS acting like a business and doing whatever it wants to do. But there are times when doing what’s in the best interest of MLS, isn’t actually in the best interest of growing the game as a whole in this country. And there’s no denying that the MLS has rules and regulations that are very outdated and should be fixed.

[@davidday2373]

Another silly notion is the goofy idea that MLS wants you have 40 teams. MLS wants to be a Major League, like the sports in the U.S. 30 to 32 teams.

[@ronridenour243]

The only way I can imagine pro/rel would work in a world where MLS exists is for MLS to institute it internally. They could introduce MLS Premier to start play in 2027 with 3 additional international spots and 3 additional DPs per team in the top tier. That allows them to keep expanding beyond 40 teams as well and add a third tier. They might do this if it allows them to keep collecting expansion fees. Also it helps because those teams that don’t want to spend big could still win their league. MLS Cup would be a cup competition for all of the teams in both leagues that would run concurrently with the league season with a spot in the Champions cup for the winner.

[@davidday2373]

​@@ronridenour243 FIFA would have to make it obligatory, otherwise I don't see it happening. People idealize what Pro-Rel "could be" in the US/MLS, but don't apply practicality or reality to it. Reduce MLS back to 20 teams, okay, how? So now 10 "MLS teams" are Relegated, how does that play-out realistically? All 10 teams INSTANTLY GET WORSE, having to slash Payroll and sell-off players cuz they're now operating on a 2nd Division finances. We sacrificed 10 MLS-caliber teams to created 10 USL-caliber teams just so that we can "Promote" 2 USL-caliber teams next year, just to be able to say "We have Promotion-Relegation." On the matter of Expansion Fees, NOBODY WOULD BE INVESTING $500 MILLION for a team in a league with Relegation. It has been through the "Major League" system (not Pro-Rel), that MLS has elevated the sport of Soccer to the level its at now in the U.S. The *20th MLS team, Montreal, paid $40 Million to join (*Beckham had paid $25M prior to that, for a future team). So imagine if MLS had capped off at *20-teams with Montreal in 2012 (with an open spot for Beckham's future team). Think of what would NOT have been: No NYCFC ($100m), no Orlando ($70m), no Atlanta ($70m), no Minnesota ($100m), no LAFC ($110m), no Cincy ($150m), no Nashville ($150m), no Austin FC ($150m), no Charlotte ($325m), no STL City​ ($200m), no San Diego FC ($500M). All of those great stadiums, amazing atmospheres, cool cities, innovative/ambitious owners. No "Hudson River derby", no "Hell is Real", no "Copa Tejas", no "L.A. County Classic", on and on. Ultimately, forcing Pro-Rel into the U.S. is like trying to pound 'a square peg into a round hole'. It's not natural, and it would actually hinder the growth of the sport in the U.S.

[@davidday2373]

@@ronridenour243 But if that would be the format, what would be the point??? The only saving grace for the Pyramid/Pro-Rel is the "Open" aspect of it, where teams can climb up from nothing (so to speak). Otherwise, if it's a "Closed Pyramid" -- what would be the point? Just to have teams move up and down?

[@Leo_messia]

USA football problem = be not in promotion and relegation

[@carlosarrighi1147]

US should copy the state leagues that brazil has due to the great distances of the country.

[@AMERICANULTRASTALK]

Yuri has mentioned that as something he wants to see in the past, it’s a great idea!

[@davidday2373]

For what?

[@laudemar-A.B.6386]

I don't know if it would work in the USA, in Brazil we have 27 states and the USA has 50, it would be crazy 😆

[@filibertoperez6356]

I agree, taking into account that the U.S. does have existing state associations for adult and youth amateurs (affiliated to the USSF) Now, these state associations would require a lot of resources to operate professional state leagues/championships.

[@davidday2373]

We have the NFL, MLB, NBA, College Football (many leagues), the NHL, College Basketball (many leagues), and they all operate successfully. We know how to run sports leagues in the U.S. MLS does not need to copy England or Brazil or any other foreign league/system.

[@samogotamo]

Rhode Island FC is bigger than the new england revs

[@AMERICANULTRASTALK]

No lies detected

[@jeremyferrufino6849]

I don’t really care about pro/rel just cause of how American sports is set up. If it ever does happen, I would welcome it but I won’t cry if it never happens. The funny thing to me is the people who are crying for pro/rel are statistically fans of teams that NEVER get relegated. The eurosnobs all love Arsenal, Man City, Man U, Chelsea, etc. I will say one thing, the lack of pro/rel should at least make the US Open Cup a better tournament, considering it’s the longest soccer tradition we have. I’m hoping they make the US Open Cup more like Copa Del Rey (better than FA Cup in my opinion).

[@AMERICANULTRASTALK]

Completely understandable opinion to have, I get where you’re coming from. It does seem like 99% of the people who want pro/rel support a world giant in Europe. Definitely agree that the Open Cup should be more like the Copa del Rey, the lower level team should always be the hosts, especially since MLS fans don’t usually buy tickets to Open Cup games.

[@jeremyferrufino6849]

@@AMERICANULTRASTALK this just my opinion but making the US Open Cup better would definitely make all fans of just about every soccer league in the US want pro/rel. Imagine having lower league teams host more games, entering all teams at the same round (except those participating in CCC) and having those David and Goliath games. Honestly, as much as I enjoyed Leagues Cup, there is no reason to have that tournament (I’d even consider making it a biannual tournament), US Open Cup should be USSF’s priority after it’s national teams.

[@AMERICANULTRASTALK]

100% agree, the problem here (which we addressed in the video) is MLS. MLS created Leagues Cup along with Liga MX as a money grab and then used the “fixture congestion” that they created as an excuse to leave the Open Cup. The reason they’re doing this is because it’s part of the effort to monopolize the sport and kill USL (like they killed NASL, who interestingly seem to be the only league to have publicly called out MLS as a monopoly). Without MLS teams the tournament loses its value, and USL teams lose their chance to make a statement for pro/rel. Yes there’s still 8 MLS teams playing, but that’s the absolute bare minimum (lower in my opinion) that USSF could do to put a stop to this. MLS unfortunately controls USSF so they’ll continue to get their way.

[@the77th]

Why didn’t you upload this video to Vimeo?

[@davidday2373]

A yes, Vimeo, the USL of video upload platforms.

[@PvtPooter]

You only need the 500 million dollar buy-in to get into the mls. If there was relegation and promotion you would eliminate the $500 million buy-in. Come on guys

[@kurthines6541]

One contributing factor to this conundrum is that the MLS has never made money. Until Messi. With owners going years or decades without making money, they resorted to restricting supply as a way to not lose money. The result is a ponzi scheme where each new owner/team has to pay a higher league entry fee than the owners before them. But with Messi, MLS will actually turn a profit, but no guarantee that encourages MLS owners to change their anti-competitive ways. Here’s a proposed solution (or at least financial component of the solution)… Either via merger or just MLS creating a system where: 1) There is a pyramid system with Pro/Rel like every other country and to start, with three or maybe four tiers; 2) Every USL Championship and League One team is invited into the new, expanded system; 3) To join, each team has to pay an entry fee AND the entry fee is based on which tier that team wants to start off in… eg entry fee of $100M to be part of 2nd tier, $30M to be part of 3rd tier and $10M to be part of the 4th tier; 4) so no USL team in first tier to start, and No pro/rel until after the second season of this format, which gives teams two seasons to sharpen their operations to be competitive in their tier and 5) Financial Fair Play or Salary Cap system put in place depending on tier that the club is in. The system could be tweaked that any team that wants to pay up the current MLS entry fee of $500M could be part of the 1st tier from the beginning. The newly expanded league/system also takes control of all media rights deals and the overall media money pie gets bigger with the potential to get even larger because media companies don’t have to worry as much about splitting media markets depending on what league they bid on for broadcasting rights. This approach creates a bigger upside for current MLS owners (but does create some more risk because of the threat of relegation). But it creates a real opportunity for MLS owners to benefit economically above and beyond the current system. MLS owners need to think about life after Messi already, and that means continued, systematic growth of the sport I the 🇺🇸. USL owners get the opportunity to join a bigger league where promotion is possible. They will have to invest, and that potentially means taking on additional investors… but think it’s very likely investors will line up for a chance to be part of this system with the upside of being promoted to the 1st division.

[@AMERICANULTRASTALK]

Financially speaking, this is likely the best scenario to persuade any mls owners who have the ability to prepare for the post-Messi era and grasp the concept of just how massive the ROI could be if we were to have the sport restructure, with the MLS clubs at a pole position to benefit from the new pyramid. As fans we will obviously always root for a merge and a perfect scenario where we can enjoy the sport in its pure form, a true pyramid. Loved the comment and would like to ask if we could reference it as a source of information for a future video we may put out someday on the topic? Thank you so much for the response

[@kurthines6541]

@@AMERICANULTRASTALK - thanks for the feedback! I meant to mention that another part of the plan has to be a solid U19 youth league setup, which MLS Next and MLS NextPro are good starting points for, but need to make NextPro U19 only. And of course you can reference the comment or me any time 👍🏼

[@AMERICANULTRASTALK]

Not sure about U19, MLS NP should at least be U21 with a certain number of overage players allowed for each team in their matchday squad, similar to the U21 Premier League in England.

[@davidday2373]

1) Pro-Rel is a non-starter. 2) You don't know what a 'ponzi scheme' is. 3) Expansion Fees were $30 million not that long ago, MLS was begging for investment. Now it's $500 million, deal with it.

[@davidday2373]

​@@AMERICANULTRASTALK MLS is a Major League, it's not a Pro-Rel/Pyramid system. Get on board if you want soccer to improve in the U.S.

[@jayh3283]

United States need regional leagues with a division pyramid in order to grow the sport properly. Do you know what region has the fewest people in it? The Northeast. That’s a population of 57.6 million people. If that was a country, they would be ranked 26th in the world behind Italy and in front of Kenya. Second to the lowest is the Midwest with 68.9 million people. They would rank 21st in the world as a country ahead of United Kingdom (England, Scotland, Wales, Northeastern Ireland, and British Isles) and behind Thailand. I don’t think people understand the level of insanity to think MLS with it’s 30 clubs is enough to grow soccer in United States.

[@AMERICANULTRASTALK]

100% agree, a state division system like Brazil has would be amazing.

[@prozombie6768]

Lmao all y’all saying promotion/relegation is going to happen are delusional. Europe will leave pro/rel before it happens in USA.

[@Duxdex]

Indy 11 the kid of Louisville City

[@owenthornhill9671]

F the MLS

[@davidday2373]

Pro-Rel is stupid. Don't mix that into every topic.

[@gothestags09]

It's a far superior system as evidenced by most of the world

[@AMERICANULTRASTALK]

I (Yuri) don’t believe it is stupid. It is what essentially harnesses the passion for the game throughout the world, adds to drama, stakes, pressure, and The fact MLS themselves seriously consider implementing it at some point in the future is further evidence that it is necessary in our country. A merger isn’t realistic but debating on the differences between both leagues, consequences of the directions they’re both going and hypothetical scenarios where they implement a true pyramid is valid. We plan on releasing a video diving deeper with the implications around it and discussing the structure of the sport as a whole in our country.

[@theentitledsiriowlsx]

Pro/rel with close system like MLS is stupid. All we have are owners who extort more money from so-called 'fans'. But for USL, a league for fans is highly reasonable for pro/rel.