Model Railway Layout Part 4 - Points: Insulfrog / Electrofrog

The fourth part of a series showing the construction of a permanent model railway in the spare room. Part 4 - A comprehensive analysis of insulated frog and electrofrog points, including operating principles and connectivity.

[@adrianolsen-woodhamwoodtur4980]

As a newbie, this is far and away the best and above all, clearest explanation I’ve seen on this subject. Thank you very much !

[@geezenstacks]

Glad it was helpful!

[@kidgrave]

Thank you for this awesome video. You did a good job at explaining things. As a newbie to the hobby, I’m gonna go with DCC, and Hornby insul frogs.

[@alancruickshank9286]

One of the best explanations I have seen thank you

[@geezenstacks]

You're welcome, it was just me getting my head around it. 😊

[@gvwlewis4016]

What an excellent video. A patient, calm and collected explanation of what and why. I saved this video for future reference. Thank you so much. Please know that your effort is sincerely appreciated.

[@brucewoods9377]

Great video. I now have a better grasp and understanding of the electro frog and dcc modifications

[@stig5516]

Brilliant explanation of the how different type of points work! All beginners should watch this to remove the mystery of electrofrog vs insulated frog. Thank you so much for taking the time to produce this video. I agree Peco build quality is much better than the far eastern version.

[@malcolmmyatt9092]

That's a great help. I couldn't understand why I couldn't understand why I would need to modify a new point. Thank you for uploading this video.

[@aplinewalker]

AT LAST , AT LAST ,,, finding your video is like finding the holy GRAIL what an outstanding presentation,,, I have looked at what feels like hundreds and hundreds of videos to try and get my head around the different points, and most of them have only added to my confusion, if there was such things as KZbin Oscars then you above any how to video on point wiring would get my vote, May I metaphorically shake you by the hand, Then im subscribing ,,,, and then im going to watch your other 23 videos, Many many thanks ,,,,,

[@geezenstacks]

Thanks Alan. I had the same issues when I looked at points, so having worked it out thought I would make a video to check I had my head round it! Glad it helps.

[@markcarey8426]

That's very good. I, like many others it seems, have found this whole issue confusing and this is the best explanation I've seen. Good on you for posting.

[@geezenstacks]

Thanks for the comments Mark.

[@markcarey8426]

Moorway South I did find the clips a bit of a puzzle but I get it now. They are reinforcing the power supply otherwise dependent just on the levers.

[@ricsutton7231]

Moorway South hh

[@carsonlucado1847]

Moorway South so I have a Hornby point and my little Hornby Thomas won’t run very well on it if I run it slower I’m getting ready to ballast the track so should I get a new one or would the point work better with larger Bachmann and Hornby steam engines?

[@saltspringrailway3683]

It's a pity PECO haven't made a video as good as this. Their written instructions are woeful for an excellent but confusing product. I power some of the frogs but I haven't broken the little bridges underneath. Occasionally I've had a short but not enough times to warrant lifting the track and performing 'the snip' and soldering new conections.

[@ErikKothen]

Thank you for taking the time to make this video!!! It helped me tremendously.

[@ronb5781]

Great video, thank you for clearing this up for me!!! Well done!

[@wolfpack4694]

Wonderful explanation! Clear, and logical. Thanks!

[@InterCity134]

Excellent explanation of DC over switches and the issues. Great for understanding the issues.

[@Calvertfilm]

Very well described. Well done, and thanks for making it clearer. I agree with Alan Plumb's comment. Oscar material. Cheers, Laurie.

[@slawomirsokolowski2779]

excellent explanation :) I can see the difference between both types of points - which is the exact information i need at this moment - at the planning stage of my layout :) thanks a lot

[@geezenstacks]

You're welcome - I needed to do that video to get my head round it!

[@nosnowflakezone3608]

One word says it all .... brilliant !!

[@richardray6827]

Brilliant explanation. Thank you for taking the time to make this video. It has really made it easier to understand.

[@geezenstacks]

Glad you found it helpful - I didn't really understand it until I did the video!

[@candjur1]

That was the best explanation I've ever heard. Finally I got it 😊 thank you

[@alan1340]

Sadly I didn't get it at all.

[@fircombehallrailwayoogauge1430]

Very comprehensive explanation for a beginner!

[@terrencejbunce125]

very clear and well explained, gave me a greater insight into the subject

[@Johantheman]

Excellent video. Thanks also for the Velcro tip in your other video. John.

[@jakeedinger4547]

Great video, very helpful to guy like me that are now getting started in model railroading as a hobby thank you.

[@universalsailor]

This is very well done. I actually understand it now.

[@ianstwaddle]

Really enjoyed your video, I am in the process of changing my layout from hornby points to Peco and I am going down the route of electro frog but due to the number of points on my layout, just over 50, I think I might use a couple of double slips.

[@geezenstacks]

Good luck with all that work.

[@jasonclark8578]

great vid , very helpful as I'm new to Dcc lay outs . from old style oo and marklin

[@redflag1964]

Thank you for that it was very well presented and explained.

[@TheBenny423]

Thanks and I'll definitely be looking out for parts 6 and 7.

[@kerrieplasom3056]

Brilliant...Thanks for explaining it...

[@adelestevens]

Nice explanation, easy to understand. Now to sit down and try to work out how to wire up my peco elecrofrog double slip and scissors crossings LOL

[@SD70MIKE1]

GRACIAS POR EXPLICAR.. THANKS FOR THE EXPLANATION.. GREATINGS FROM MEXICO ..

[@headlysouth4191]

Nice explanation of electrofrog points, Thanks

[@gregward2186]

As from a n gauge modeller exhibition standard. well done on this great video I get ask so many times about this subject. How I do it I only use electrofrog especially in n gauge people get so confused. About it. Well explained well done. Happy track laying people wen wiring always colour and number code your wires and make a book with details of it so easy to fault find. As in say live red common black frog yellow and number the frog wire to the number of point. To point motor. It all helps to fault find Happy modelling people

[@arthurwindsock3792]

Thank you for the explanation of the points. I'm looking at changing all my hornby points to peco as I now want to run dcc.

[@geezenstacks]

If you change to electrofrog then bear in mind that the geometry is different. If you are thinking of set-track then although I think they are better quality, you won't gain much difference for your money.

[@tassie7325]

Thanks. I am just starting out on my first model rail set-up and I was trying to get my head around the way that the points (standard Hornby) work. In particular, how problems occur when "common" connections exist with two sets of track. Even looking very closely at the points I could not see how the connection worked until you disclosed that they are actually connected within the plastic enclosure. I am now better informed because of your fine explanation but I am still a little vague as to why both points have to be switched in order to avoid a common return.

[@chrisgollan3277]

just what I needed thank you very much

[@quarryfield]

Very well explained, thank you.

[@johnc2ful]

superb explanation. I have just found it after a lot of questions on the MERG site. I think i did not cut the 2 small connecting wires

[@peterstecks7660]

Excellent. Thank you.

[@tyfon4429]

What a correct wonderfull video. Thank you 💫

[@medwaypeninsulaMR]

That is a very clear explanation many thanks

[@iannang]

Really excellent tutorial

[@ifukill7538]

Thanks for explaining this ☺🚂 Jayne

[@Nick-ye5kk]

Excellent video

[@bluemini1969]

Excellent - thank you.

[@geezenstacks]

I think you mean the Peco SL-99 and SL-E99. They appear to be the same size and geometry, which can be an issue with other points. I would always go for electrofrog points where I can fit them in. It means more wiring, but with the Seep point motor it's not difficult. See part 6 and 7 (coming soon) for more details about this. Loco's run much better over electrofrog points. Hoep this helps.

[@MarcelGodfrey]

Thank you

[@nathangarciamuro]

Very good and explanatory video

[@nasrullahhosseini2899]

That’s very good

[@g0nnag3tcha2day]

Peco insulfrog have a small soldered wire underneath that will run from positive rail, and goes to the positive rail on the turn off part so it has constant power and same goes with the negative rail heading along the mainline

[@geezenstacks]

Thanks for the clarification.

[@geezenstacks]

@ andy - I would always go for Electrofrog now (for DC and/or DCC) as it gives better running.

[@geezenstacks]

+Moorway South - Sorry I must have been half asleep when I wrote that! I meant ELECTROFROG :o)

[@geezenstacks]

+BR 33017 s - electrofrog for both

[@stevemarshall2962]

Nice video thanks

[@TheBenny423]

What about three-way peco points? Which one out of Electrofrog and Insulated frog points is better for a three-way point? The point will have a point motor connected and I'm using DCC for my layout. Please awnser my question. King Regards, Ben

[@elGa_tUrRo]

God you saved me !!!

[@angelsone-five7912]

Thanks for explaining that, I think I am beginning to understand things at last. Just one question before I start my layout - which of the 2 types would you recommend as better anyway? Thanks.

[@geezenstacks]

Electrofrog are definitely better.

[@ronk3031]

Thanks for the great video! i was wondering if you could do one on the wiring of a PECO double cross over...I am thinking of using frog juicers to sort the frogs but saw on another cross over explanation (different brand) that can use TWO juicers for the 4 wires coming off the rails/frogs, that is 2 wires go one juicer and 2 to the other as only one pair is needed at a time? I hope you understand what I mean. What I need to know is what wires are paired and if there need be any other mods to make my N scale PECO double cross overs work well with all size engines. THANKS

[@geezenstacks]

Unfortunately I don't have one of those. From looking online, it looks like you will need four motors each supplying its frog and a reversing module for the crossover. Take a look at a video called "wiring a double crossover for DCC" by steampower4ever, that should help.

[@MarkInLA]

I've know all this for 50 years or more. But I still enjoyed your very thorough demonstration and also gets me thinking if I should stay with my Atlas switches from my prior layout on my ensuing new layout, or go over to Peco.. One thing that is a tad confusing is: If you'r going to motorize your points anyway, what use is there for the spring action in the throw bar? And, will there be a fight between the motor's movement and the spring's movement ? M, Los Angeles

[@geezenstacks]

With the electromagnet throw motors I use, there's no force in them once they throw so the spring helps keep the point in place.

[@PeakeyFortySix]

An absolutely great vid, really cleared up my misunderstandings about the two in a concise and clear way. Very, very helpful indeed! One question; could you use a insulfrog point straight out of the box on any layout with no work if you used insulated rail-joiners as shown? Many thanks, Jack

[@geezenstacks]

The insulated-frog works straight out of the box with normal joiners. You might have meant the electro-frog: These can be used straight out of the box too but you must use insulated rail-joiners on the two tracks which meet at the frog.

[@PeakeyFortySix]

Indeed i did! Cheers, Jack

[@slg9095]

Great video and explanation. Leaves me wondering, as I have for a while, why you would choose electrified frogs at all? Their only advantage seems to be to prevent a stall when a loco lands on it, which seems unlikely with multiple pickups. Why not just go for insulated frogs and save yourself a load of extra wiring and having to use insulated fish plates? Unless I've missed something.

[@geezenstacks]

Hi Steve. Sadly I find the reality is that even with multiple pick ups stalls are common on insulated frog points.

[@michaelcompton1948]

Is there a problem if Initially I decide not to power the e!ectrofrog through the point motor

[@davidgudgeon2326]

Tha k you great video. A question. I'm just about to start a dcc layout what points would you recommend insul or electro.i have about five insul points.not sure the best way to go I am a complete novice. Thanks

[@geezenstacks]

Hi. I think it depends on your locos. if they are modern and large with multi wheel electric pick up then insulfrog will be fine. electrofrog always needs frog control by motor or switcher, which is more expensive. I ran both and they each have pros and cons.

[@LetsGo_41]

Hello, very good video indeed. Can I use peco side mounted point motors rather than ones underneath the board with Electrofrog points? If so do I need to just fit plastic fish plates or do I need to cut the little wires underneath the point?

[@geezenstacks]

Hi - If I remember correctly, the surface mounted (side) point doesn't have a frog output. The power supply for the frog then comes from the moving rails and is passed to the frog by the little wires, so leave these intact (only cut these if you are providing frog power directly from the motor or electronically). As always with electrofrog points, make sure to always use plastic rail joiners on the two rails that meet at the frog.

[@LetsGo_41]

@@geezenstacks Thank you very much for response. That helps a lot and I appreciate your help. I hope your layout build is going well.

[@48firefox]

correct me if I am wrong . these points after modification will not be self isolating, I have a dc /analouge layout. I assume all the rails will be live no matter which way the points are set, so needing isolating switches?

[@geezenstacks]

+48firefox - Hi. For a simple siding on a DC layout, you can use them straight out of the box without insulated joiners on the frog. The siding will then effectively be dead when the point is set to main line running as the rails will have the same polarity. If you are using the point for something more complex than a simple siding then you should really power the frog separately. Take a look at Brian Lambert's website for more details.

[@technickuk]

Great explanation. The last 30 seconds especially! One question though, are both the Hornby and Peco points the same track width? I thought I read somewhere that the Peco electrofrog points have finer track (hoping that's the right terminology!).

[@geezenstacks]

All Hornby track is Code 100. Peco has Code 100 in set-track (which is identical to the Hornby track) and also in Streamline (which has larger radius curves). All of these are compatible. Peco also do Code 75 which is slightly smaller. Code 75 is not compatible with Code 100. Hope this helps.

[@technickuk]

Moorway South Aha, thanks for that. Guess I still have some reading-up to do....

[@ipcress1066]

So, can I just clarify, for a DCC layout, the very top and very bottom rails do not need insulated joiners as the polarity doesn't change. The insulated joiners are only required for the frog rails - is that correct? Thanks Paul (good video BTW)

[@geezenstacks]

+Paul Matthews - yes that's right, the frog (where the rails meet at a sharp point) poalrity changes when the point changes so needs to be isolated from the rest of the track. The very top and bottom tracks don't ever change polarity.

[@ipcress1066]

+Moorway South ok, that makes sense many thanks

[@juliapeter]

So if I add the insulated joiners to the electrofrog I can start running trains right away?

[@geezenstacks]

yep!

[@oliversinton948]

So if I added the hornby point clips to a insulfrog peco point will a class 08 shunter (short wheel base) run smoothly over it?

[@geezenstacks]

Short wheel base always difficult with insulated points. All you can do is try it and see.

[@B00MSPL4T]

So am I right in believing that a Insulfrog Peco Point is completely DCC ready, and I do not need to use the frog wire from a seep point motor?

[@geezenstacks]

Yes, you can use the insulfrog point straight out of the box for DC and DCC.

[@richardclowes6123]

Hi, very informative video, thanks. I'm slightly unsure about some items: I am setting up a DC layout. If I join the pairs of track as you suggested on my Peco electro-frog point, do I still need the insulated track connectors on both inner parts of the 'Y' on the points? Do I need to cut the small cables under the points or is that just for DCC track? What do I do with the extra cable that is connected to the frog? Cheers

[@geezenstacks]

With DC you can use electro frog peco point straight out of the box but you must use insulated joiners at the frog. Don't cut any wires or add any wires. For the frog wire, either cut it off or tidy it away.

[@richardclowes6123]

@@geezenstacks If I was to fit point motors at a later date will I have to change the points and do the wiring as you suggested. Cheers

[@geezenstacks]

@@richardclowes6123 depends on the motor. For DC I would keep it simple and not bother with frog switching, just a simple throw motor either surface mounted or under the board as required.

[@richardclowes6123]

@@geezenstacks Thanks for the advice. Received and understood. Thanks again. Enjoying your vids. Cheers Rick the Bulldog

[@iancole931]

Question is, why haven't the manufactures provided these changes as standard on electrofrog points?

[@geezenstacks]

Probably to maintain versatility.

[@lawrencelewis8105]

Are those power clips available in N-scale? I see no reason why they would not work in a DC only layout. I've been having trouble with several points on my new layout, the power connection of the point blade isn't as good as it could be. the clips look to be answer.

[@geezenstacks]

Try a search on "Fleischmann spare 779141 (S) DCC point clip N gauge"

[@lawrencelewis8105]

Thanks a lot for the quick reply. There's a shop here in Toronto that should have them.

[@philnewman1110]

I have some of the Peco electrofrog points and they do not have the cuts in the track? Is this something that you have cut in yourself? Very informative video by the way, very well explained indeed.

[@geezenstacks]

Hi Phil. No, the cut outs in the rail were already there. Perhaps you have older points?

[@philnewman1110]

@@geezenstacks hello thanks for getting back to me. The turnouts i have are brand new, purchased from Gaugemaster in the last couple of months. The ones i have are N Gauge so i am assuming the ones you showed were OO scale maybe? I have watched other videos and it seems that they do not cut the tracks from new for N gauge, i could be wrong? Cheers Phil

[@geezenstacks]

@@philnewman1110 ah, probably a gauge issue then. OO come with a leaflet that explains how to wire them up.

[@AndrewMartin-lz1dh]

Can I ask the question do you have to power the frog from the switch.

[@geezenstacks]

Yes, since the polarity needs to change for each point position. The alternative is an auto switching module like the gaugemaster DCC80.

[@ExtraLeben]

I Love your video :) superb indeed.. I got a question.. I want to lay a siding from my mainlinw track, but it should only be powered when i switch the point.. But the thing is i live in vienna and everytime a go into the model train shops and ask for points which switch the circuit to another rail the shopowner and other customers have no clue what i want from them.. Its like that isnt available here xD oh and they dont know what a shunting layout is.. Around here they just built these big layouts where u need a hole house to store it.. Maybe someone here can help me.. I use piko track :) i saw that the points i can get here 2.hand or new have a extra wiring behind the frog to support both rails.. -. -

[@geezenstacks]

If you are running on DC, then power the main line but not the siding. Then use the Pico point straight out of the box and it will isolate the siding when switched to main line running.

[@ExtraLeben]

@@geezenstacks thx.. O thought that would it be.. I comfused myself with piko and peco.. In german, piko is spoken like peco im the uk.. But these 2 are differemt companies.. And peco isnt sold here in austria but in 1 place.. And they are the only ones one can get here in austria which isolated sidings.. Fortunately they cost the same as in the uk.. But there is no 2. Hand market so i need to buy them new.. Which is more expensive but still within a reasonable range.. Not like fleischmann or märklin..

[@WaitAMinute1989]

Can you add the link to the sites for purchase these tracks?

[@geezenstacks]

There's lots of online model railway retailers who stock track, an internet search will bring them up 👍🏻

[@slevinshafel9395]

HI nice information. But I do not understand how to make the detour Electrofrog to avoid short circuit. 10:40 minutes you have Electrofrog negative (-) so if it comes down locomotive is founde with two equal ploso the negative of the main line below and the negative in the Electrofrog. As solve that? ------------------ Pero no entiendo el desvio electrofrog como hacer para no tener cortocircuito. En el minuto 10:40 tienes el electrofrog en negativo(-) entonces si viene una locomotora de abajo se encuentrara con dos ploso iguales el negativo de la linea principal de abajo y el negativo que hay en el electrofrog. Como se resuelve eso?

[@geezenstacks]

The short circuit in the frog is avoided by using insulated rail joiners where the frog meets the right-hand rails. If you mean the short circuit between the outside rails and the switching rails then, the only way to avoid this is to isolate the frog from the switching rails (by cutting the tiny wires underneath the gap) then supply the frog from a point motor.

[@micheldenis6362]

Dear Friend i am New in railway modelism....i should want points Where the current passes ONLY in the chosen track....must i buy insulfrog or électrofrog or this is another problem ? Thanks for your Nice answer. I Am running analog DC.Michel.

[@geezenstacks]

Running analogue DC and requiring the current to pass only to the chosen track, go for insulfrog. Very simple in those circumstances.

[@micheldenis6362]

Moorway South Many thanks, have A great Day, excited to build my layout, best wishes

[@BristolSpotterHD]

cant beat british.. all my track is peco

[@thomasshannon2741]

were can i get those power clips ??link please

[@geezenstacks]

Do a search for Hornby R8232.

[@tgk300xx4]

I have to disagree with the points verdict. The horn ones feel far better and also my locos seem to live them more

[@alcidesduran9696]

E x c e l e N t e----y util

[@universalsailor]

So, is Pico a British firm?

[@geezenstacks]

Indeed yes - based in Devon!

[@ventureza6348]

Great video, but the Hornby clips create shorts and become a bit of nightmare especially with cross overs.

[@geezenstacks]

Can't say I have found that with mine - they seem to work fine on the insulated points. However, I would now always go for electrofrog and power the frog from the point switch.

[@ventureza6348]

It would appear it was the Lima Pizza Slicing coach wheels that were the culprit. Cheers.

[@andyottenbreit916]

So which is better for DCC Electrofrog or Insulfrog?

[@stuarthill6330]

Can you give some more detail please on how to wite the power via the point motor. Thank you

[@geezenstacks]

See parts 6 & 7 of the videos.

[@stuarthill6330]

Thank you for reply.

[@jazzman1626]

I'm even more confused than ever. The explanation confuses me. I'd like to see a video showing what tracks to connect and what tracks to isolate and that's it. I get a sort of brain fog nowadays. I need a diagram of what bits to connect or isolate.

[@geezenstacks]

Are you running DC or DCC?

[@jazzman1626]

Moorway South I'm just collecting info so far and trying to learn as much as I can about setting up a layout so that when I get the spare room cleared, I will hopefully be able to set things up easier. Bus wiring confused me at first but it's much easier to understand now. I came across a video that showed what to cut and what to join etc. And he showed the diagram that come with the points which looked easy to understand. I will watch your video a few times until it eventually makes its way through my brain fog lol.