Mohsen Goudarzi: What Did the Earliest Muslim Worship Look Like? What do Din, Islam, and Hanif mean?

In this interview I chat with Professor Mohsen Goudarzi of Harvard University. Mohsen Goudarzi is currently assistant professor of Islamic Studies at Harvard Divinity School, prior to that he taught at the University of Minnesota Twin Cities. He is an expert in Qur'anic Studies and his scholarship is leading to the reevaluation of some of the most fundamental assumptions previously held in the study of the Qur’an.
In this chat we discuss words like Din, Islam, and Hanif in the Qur’an and their original cultic meaning. Dr. Goudarzi traces the development of these words and presents what he thinks to be their earliest and most fundamental usage. This is a fascinating discussion so be sure to watch all the way through!
I hope you enjoy this video, as always please remember to like the video and subscribe to the channel!
Dr. Goudarzi’s article on this topic: doi.org/10.1086/723646

[@kimberlywallace6148]

Found you on MYTH VISION 👋 and subscribed. Thank you Derek Lambert 👏👏👏

[@quantumrim3805]

Great interview as usual Thank you

[@NejiBHTahar]

Great & deep discussion. Thank you!

[@dogukan7406]

Fantastic video ❤❤❤

[@vaiyaktikasolarbeam1906]

insightful!

[@stevesmith4901]

This was an incredible interview. Gave me a new understanding to the words Deen, Islam and Haneef.

[@laylaali5977]

Excellent program

[@user-of1xy6tj5f]

حوار ذكي و عميق شكرا لكما

[@user-of1xy6tj5f]

Thank you Dr. Gabriel for responding. I have been spending my time watching your valuable discussions with these intelligent scholars about Islam and thr bible. Notre Dame university was one of the 20 institutions i applied to in 1989 for the Ph.D in economics. But failed walhamdullilah. Nevertheless... I am a researcher in Islam and some of my findings relate to your area of research in historical perspective. I intend to publish my findings in youtube once i pass a transitional period. The title is within The Theory of Conlict that is supported by historical events and theological text from the Quraan. I have been developing the theory since 2006 where it exists now in a form of short scattered articles in my writing books which i call them "The Groom". I have looked for your email for future contact but to no avail. However... I thank you greatly for all the discussions in your channel where i had some of my inquiries cleared a bit especially Dr. Aljallad's findings. Salam from Texas.

[@DrOmar11]

Indeed insightful reflections. Goudarzi's analysis of 5:(1-3) in light of updating dietary commands in Surah 6 underscores how important it is to have a contextual reading based on the context of the passage wherein the verses examined are placed and to read in context of previous passages of the Quran as well. Thanks much Gabriel for this discussion. I have subscribed to your channel.

[@TheCinamanic]

Scriptural Narrative sacred nerratives Revolutionary Religions Asaateer al-awwaleen Or E✡️PE☪️✝️ As in your audience can expect ideas to be logically discussed in our shows.

[@sam2168]

Very insightful, does the quran not mention injel as kitab then.

[@lucaspacitti182]

Awesome

[@dastanabilev]

Now I have a dream - to have Holy Quran with various academics' commentary. Imagine reading a sura, and then having a half-a-page commentary of an academic on just one word - Din. That would be amazing!!!

[@khalilaliane1690]

I think there might be one, "le coran des historiens". Tho i dont know if it is available in english

[@atharajazkhan]

Angelika Neuwirth, Samuel Wilder - The Qur'an Text and Commentary, Volume 1 Early Meccan Suras This is something that you may be looking for

[@rolandboston48774]

This sort of thing has already happened. It's called 'The Qur'an Seminar Commentary' and Gabriel Said and some of the guys he interviewed here were on the team!

[@mrtransmogrify]

5:42 Tell me about it... I've tried doing things with the images at corpuscoranicum and its laborious to say the least

[@almudarabahislamandscience3561]

I wonder if it could be that the word 'Deen' could have more than one meaning. The word 'ein' for example; has many meanings, some scholars say it has 50 meanings, and all of them are correct and many are still in use today. This is 'Al Jennas'; Alliteration which is the similarity of two words in pronunciation but with different meanings. I must admit that I did not research the word 'Deen', so I am only presenting this as a suggestion. I greatly value Professor Goudarzi's presentation. My best regards and great respect to both of you.

[@whootoo1117]

At 23:00 Din means conduct, behavior, way to do practical things = DIN. كما تدين تدان ما دان المرء وما يدين المرئ how the person takes himself towards doing something. Not serving or doing service but doing service has a way to conduct. So, it is a part of doing deen but not whole, because part is not the whole as we all know. يدين مدين دين Dayn, yadin, madin are related to dayn or payment or paying back of loan. So, there are related words but have different pronounciation at the same time related. So, there is slight root difference but can also connected in a way.

[@user-xq6xu3fo8c]

These are like John Peel sessions for religion academics Thank you Dr Reynolds for bringing these to us for free Jazakallah

[@anaveler4147]

If, when, where faith is understood in absence of prayer; where by worship I understand a version of the letter, that relatedness defined as it were...

[@infinitelyimprobablem2078]

Very interesting, entertaining but a bit out there in terms of extrapolating the textual meaning

[@santhiramorgan8329]

at minute 7:44...the order of the Quran sometimes overlap the Uthamic codex....How can I get hold of an Uthmanic codex?

[@saidhashi2856]

The Uthmanic codex is the one currently in our possession. Before the standardised Uthmanic codex, people used to write the Quran based on their local dialects and method of reading. Pre-Uthmanic are those copies before standardisation. Which is extremely rare. Only parchments were found in Sanaa (sanaa manuscripts). There is also another one in Birmingham library called (Birmingham manuscript) which also goes back to the earliest Islam. Not sure though wether uthmanic or pre-uthmanic.

[@avzarathustra6164]

Yeah

[@drunklittlesheep]

Dīn meaning judgment was a loanword from Hebrew or Aramaic.

[@user-pi6fc3ej7l]

Why is my comment not here? Did it get removed?

[@quantumrim3805]

What do you call religion in Arabic other than Dine ?

[@saidhashi2856]

Our Islam is a religion of rituals practices, prayers (salat), Praising the Lord (thikr), behaviours, Charity and total dedication to Allah. The One God of Abraham and other Prophets.

[@araitol3935]

Those are Post Quranic Traditions

[@saidhashi2856]

Bringing your evidence if you are Truthful. You engaged in nothing but conjecturing.

[@araitol3935]

@@saidhashi2856 Owh Sorry I thought you wrote 5 pillars of Islam

[@saidhashi2856]

@@araitol3935 So how are the 5 pillars post Quranic traditions?? 🤔

[@araitol3935]

@@saidhashi2856 It's in hadith but not in the Quran and also You can find different pillars for different sects and this is because they use different hadith.

[@Y2KMillenniumBug]

That's why I said that there are 3-4 stories ongoing and the narrative started to become mixing of Jesus story as I was thinking that someone was writing about us but somewhere got the story mixed up. That's why I said slowly entangled then because one is dead and if get the wrong one will cause complications.

[@NeonShadowsx]

Which Christian writers denied the divine origin and necessity of animal sacrifice? This is a very shocking claim to make, given that Christ’s sacrifice is understood as completing and perfecting and thereby ending the system of animal sacrifice.

[@gk-qf9hv]

Islam comes from the root SLM (Saloma) wich means becomes perfect. So Din Al Islam means the perfic judgment.

[@DiffQ_Bro]

Abraham clearing the Kaba has the Josiah clearing temple of pagan elements motif.

[@Noorfollower]

Abraham built the ka'ba not cleared it.

[@DiffQ_Bro]

@@Noorfollower thanks

[@saidhashi2856]

Muhammad cleared the Kaaba from Pagan idols. Not Abraham. Abraham built it with his son Ismael.

[@2Sage-7Poets]

aren't they are worshipping the 3 daughters of allah?

[@Noorfollower]

youre funny

[@saidhashi2856]

A Tritarian Christian accusing others worshipping 3 daughters. How strange!! Seems to me a case of lets both of us muddy ourselves, so that no one accuses the other for being dirty. The Jewish and Muslim denunciation of Trinity somehow bothers you alot. So you have to look for daughters for Muslims to attach to them. So that we all look the same. Same way, you accuse Jews for worshipping Elohim, which is a plural term. So that you say: Jews worship more than One God. Just look Elohim; so your argument goes...... Which is all silly and pathetic to say the least. If you want to know what Muslims worship, why not simply ask them who they worship or what they believe?? Instead of accusing them of things they claim they don't believe or worship??

[@andanandan6061]

It was the belief of the Quraish. Worship AL-Ilah thru his 3 daughters similar to the Jewish worship of EL-lyon thru his child YHWH. Notice that Jesus never address God by YHWH, Yahweh or Jehovah but EL or the derivative of it. So I think He was sent to fix this mess but unfortunate His teaching got hijacked by Paul and those anynomous NT writers that had nothing to do with his teaching.

[@jma7600]

Excellent topics. This discussion could have made more sense if we admitted that certain passages have nothing to do with an Arabic worship in Mecca and a lot to do with their original context in Jerusalem. The fusion or superimposition simply doesn’t help our understanding. Most Qur’anic texts belong to another religion(s) prior to Islam.

[@julietabraham476]

It's true that most of the Quranic content is from previous religions no matter how one might argue and defend otherwise.Also how is it Abrahamic 610 years later??? seems to be an attempt of revisionism in the making....

[@losttourist4382]

That would be more unhelpful since it would be a baseless claim to make.

[@jma7600]

@@losttourist4382 Don’t be so hasty. Many accepted claims in Islamic traditions are baseless. There are no historical or archaeological base to support most of the supposed foundation upon which Islam is built upon. The references in the Quran to a house of god and a pilgrimage place etc…are all to do with Jewish traditions in Jerusalem. Extensive borrowing from other religions and traditions is happening in the making of the Quran in particular and of islam in general.

[@djamelabdelouahed726]

​@@jma7600 you wait for Archeology and History to comfirm faith? Even évent of 20 years ago lake History evendence.History and Archeology are relative science,thé absence of évidence dosen't mean thé absence of thé fact

[@jma7600]

@@djamelabdelouahed726 Who needs evidence? Mecca has nothing to do with the God of the Bible. Not one prophet or any Bible’ writer has ever mentioned Mecca before the invention of Islam. The only sacred city of God has always been and always will be: Jerusalem. Praying towards Mecca is an evidence that Muslims are simply worshiping a pagan idol, a counterfeit god.

[@leonidjudah]

If Dr. Mohsen said that the chain of prophethood from Moses jumps to muhammad, skipping other prophets, then explain why quran gets wrong on basic fact about Mary being sister of Aaron.. and it gets worst, Dr Mohsen also confirmed that the error is intact since first half of seventh centuries.. it shows that Quran lacks the understanding of Hebrew Bible..

[@losttourist4382]

Exodus 15:20 Then Miriam the prophet, Aaron’s sister, picked up a hand-drum, and all the women went out after her in dance with hand-drums. 1 Chronicles 6:3 The children of Amram were Aaron, Moses, and Miriam. And the sons of Aaron were Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.

[@anaskpalmalaki8804]

how do you explain Elizabeth, cousin of Mary was described in the bible as " daughters of Aaron" even though Elizabeth was thousands of years gap with Aaron. Luke 1:5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah. And he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth

[@leonidjudah]

@@losttourist4382 the text you quoted is precisely saying "Miriam the Prophet", not "Mary mother of Isa", clearly Quran is wrong in here... also a women being a prophet is not Quranic at all.. women' brain is only half of men isnt it.. lol

[@Y2KMillenniumBug]

Furthermore I eat Pork. So it will be odd.

[@mshh9448]

just wasted my time .. as if I am listening to two Christian Orientalist missionaries !!! I really doubt if the guest and the host know Arabic very well or read the Quran properly as it should be. the guest seems to base his investigation on some ideas and findings found in some works of orientalists and missionaries then rephrased them with some wrong inferences. I suggest for the host to bring some experts and true scholars like Prof. Shabir Ally who is well-versed in the Quran and the Bible, people will be enriched immensely by his wide and precise knowledge.

[@strongwater7814]

Brother Professor Mohsen Goudarzi of Harvard University seems to be ignorant of Qur'an Ajim and the Deen Islam. Why then he was called to teach us? He summarized that the deen and Islam are all (or almost all) about eating certain types of meat and avoiding the most of other meats. Is that Islam? Brother seems to have read one sura, the Sura An'am, and considers that to be all of Islam. I invite you to read a verse with me, verse No. 2 of sura Mulk, so that you understand Deen Islam: aujubillahi minashaitanir rajim, bismillahir rahmanir rahim "Allathee khalaqa almawta waalhayata liyabluwakum ayyukum ahsanu AAamalan wahuwa alAAazeezu alghafooru" Translation: "He Who created Death and Life that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might Oft-Forgiving", Yusuf Ali Quran Translation Text, pronunciation and translation: www.alim.org/quran/compare/surah/67/2/ You can see brother no meat in there; is that clearer to you now?

[@nadeemsiddiq7636]

You appear to be "ignorant" of what Prof Goudarzi actually said. Perhaps re-listen to the discussion or read his article -- things may be "clearer" to you then....

[@strongwater7814]

@@nadeemsiddiq7636 you seem to be unaware of the manners of intellectual discussion. You needed to provide proof for your assertion, which you didnt. What did I miss? Please enlighten me.

[@nadeemsiddiq7636]

@@strongwater7814 You seem to make statements without any grasp of what is actually discussed - hardly indicative of "manner of intellectual discussion". Your statement is plenty proof of that.

[@strongwater7814]

@@nadeemsiddiq7636 Tell me then "what is actually discussed"? He summarized that the deen and Islam are all (or almost all) about eating certain types of meat and avoiding the most of other meats. Is that Islam?

[@nadeemsiddiq7636]

@@strongwater7814 And he never "summarized" as such - neither in the video nor in his article - I said from the outset. You actually want me to tell what is in both to substantiate that? That is not how "intellectual discussion" works - both the video and the article are enough to show that you "seem" to be a joke posing as a smart person.