Mom of Oxford Shooter Jennifer Crumbley Testifies in her Manslaughter Trial | Criminal Lawyer Reacts

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Criminal Lawyer Bruce Rivers Reacts to Mom of Oxford Shooter Jennifer Crumbley Testifies in her Manslaughter Trial
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[@carrieannkouri2151]

For me, it wasn't the failure to act that bothers me, it was the fact they were aware their son had mental health issues and they gifted him a gun.

[@brainstewX]

Who doesn't have 'mental health issues'?

[@phoenixmerridian9119]

and when he was caught trying to buy ammo before the shooting, she laughed and said just dont get caught

[@soberreflection1773]

​@@brainstewXwhat kid needs a gun for a gift? And most people don't have serious mental health issues.

[@SwampOperator]

​@@soberreflection1773 kids have been gifted guns for centuries karen I had 5 in my room at the age of 12. And so did every single boy I knew. They shouldn't have bought the kid a gun though, simply because they were aware he was legit unstable. This is a dangerous precedent. You ready to go to prison when your 16 year old sneaks and drinks, then crashes into a school bus. You bought the car right

[@pennypopsbeagle6306]

@@soberreflection1773 I agree. I don’t think any kid needs a gun. But I still don’t see that it’s clear anywhere that she knew he was unstable. She hadn’t seen all his notes. From seeing her on the stand she genuinely seemed to think he was messing around about the ghosts and the haunting of the house. I still don’t see how she is guilty when at worst she missed some signs or displayed poor judgement or was a bad parent.

[@Lilover131]

This case particularly upsets me, because I’ve experienced something like this before. I had a friend who was clearly in a mental health crisis and would call me 20 times a day telling me he didn’t want to be here anymore. I tried desperately to tell his parents to please help him, and I would hear from my friend that his parents hadn’t gotten him psychological help and instead bought him a tv and a car. I was FURIOUS. One day, he called and told me he wanted to hurt people and make them “feel the pain he did”. I told my mom (I was only 15), and she contacted the police. When they went to his house, they found thousands of rounds of ammunition in the house and his father, rather than admitting his son needed help, complained about their rights being violated by the police. My friend eventually got kicked out of school after shooting up a bus with a paintball gun, but he never made me forget how angry he was with me that he could no longer buy a gun. Unfortunately, he ended up murdering someone anyways and is now in prison. I never stop thinking about what would have happened though had his parents actually helped him like he needed. I understand parents don’t know and can’t possibly know everything their child is up to or how they’re feeling, but when it’s THIS OBVIOUS, it’s unacceptable to me for no actions to be taken.

[@CherrrrBear]

Yes yes! I’m sorry about your friend

[@tmc1372]

Wow. What a story. So sorry.

[@abebuckingham8198]

Well they did convict her so you can sleep a little easier tonight.

[@JCHarris-iu6my]

I am surprised that we didn’t hear that same crap about rights being violated in this case and if we did I’d ask what about the constitutional rights of the people who were killed by Ethan Crumbley? The parents were clearly unable to raise children 😢

[@HSMfanatic17]

You did everything in your power to get him help

[@karinalemieux9396]

As a kid who suffered from major mental health issues, when I started showing symptoms of schizophrenia and depression, my mother told me to stop being crazy, to stfu and that I had nothing to me sad over because I didn’t have real world problems. When I told her I was seeing things, she told me I was creeping her out or that I was seeing her old coworkers that have passed away. When I tried to k!ll myself, she yelled at me and grounded me. My own mother and many other parents don’t look at their kid as needing help when having the behavior that myself and her son did. They see it as annoying, troublesome and as a means to seek attention. Many kids need actual mental health from as early as 8 years old. When you have stigmas, stereotypes and a negative outlook on mental health as a society, this is what you get.

[@respond2meifudare]

sounds like you need to be in a mental institution

[@mcrachelgrace9568]

I'm so sorry you weren't heard.

[@saralynnech]

Thank you for saying this. Mental health is largely ignored in this country and we are really starting to see the consequences of that. You're brave and self-aware. We need more people to take personal responsibility for their actions, but instead everyone wants to point at everyone else. This country will not get better if we look the other way when shady shit goes down or walk away when we could intervene and help. At some point someone needs to be a grown up. But I guess if people actually started taking responsibility for their actions, Bruce would be out of a job. 😉

[@evelynwaugh4053]

Mental health may be a stigma, but frankly, some parents just don't give a damn. Some parents aren't up to putting in the effort to be a good enough parent. They may not actively abuse their kid/s but they're neglectful and indifferent. Even healthy kids need parenting. Some parents shouldn't have become parents.

[@RobertaReal7980]

​@@evelynwaugh4053some parents are in complete denial. "There's nothing wrong with my child"

[@sandrabausback_aballo4338]

I personally don’t care about the affairs. What I do have an issue with is buying your child with mental health issues a gun, keeping the gun in an insecure location and not taking him out of school when the counselors call you and advise you of his actions. While Michigan may be a “gun state” that doesn’t mean it is ok to give a child with mental health issues a gun. And she knows there was something off with him.

[@rnangel69]

I'm a former school psychologist & now an RN, I listened to the whole trial..I love you Bruce but what you missed is that in the spring Ethan asked his parents to see a doctor for his mental health..mom laughed, dad gave him "pills," he took a hard fall at work hitting his head, and parents still didn't take him to Dr, mom was going to Dr for herself & getting Xanax tho, and parents knew he had 3 losses in his life (grandma, dog, only friend). Prosecution showed that rather than attending to her sons mental health needs, Mom was busy with her own needs/wants...Ethan asked his parents for help in the spring. School admin was pathetically ineffective..seeing "help me, my life is useless," and learning from parents of the 3 major losses, I would have as a school psychologist called 911 to have ambulance take Ethan to ER for psychological evaluation..lives could have been saved..and maybe Ethan would finally receive compassionate help..first time I strongly disagree with you Bruce..when I was a school psychologist I practiced according to the philosophy "ill go to court b4 going to a funeral," meaning I would call 911, CPS, etc regardless of whether the parents or school admin agreed..

[@lisarozzz]

I totally agree so many lives ruined including Ethan’s 😢

[@tmc1372]

Excellent comment.

[@etougaming2176]

i guess with everybody ive lost this year that someone should have me psychologically evaluated! the fact that no one has means they should be held criminally negligent for anything i decide to do? youre dense

[@charlesroberson6118]

I agree with you but if the parents are guilty of criminal negligence then by definition you SHOULDNT be able to charge him as an adult then.

[@orchfantube]

This is the question I wonder about. How is this kind of criminal liability on parents going to intersect with the law allowing minors to be charged and tried as adults?

[@paulfildes5489]

She told the Court that after the fight on 29th November over his grades that they took his phone away - not true - then she said “I know we took the shooting range away and we took his gun away (!)”. Then denied saying they took the gun away. Her son told the judge at his trial that he gave his father money to buy him the gun and that the gun was easily accessible - contradicting his parents' claims that the gun was securely stored. "It was not locked," Ethan Crumbley said in court.

[@MzUpliftingTea]

And if I remember correctly the search of the house, cops found the lock for this weapon still in the pacakging.

[@Cameron_F]

Well I think we need to have evidence from the Dad to get the full picture. She could have taken the phone and the gun (i.e., told the Dad to take them, especially since she had no experience with guns) and the Dad never did or gave them back after an hour or 2. It sounds like and is completely believable that she left all of the gun stuff up to the Dad, since she had very little experience with guns.

[@paulfildes5489]

Nonsense. The fact that "they took the gun from him" as a punishment shows she knew he had unrestricted access to it. She also took Ethan to the range with the 9mm, bought the bullets and actually fired it after he had. So she didn't leave all the gun stuff to Dad. Interesting that she could see how much recoil it had...how much more powerful it was when she fired it. She posted images of it on Facebook and she asked Ethan if he'd shown an image of it to his teachers after he was caught searching for bullets in class(!). @@Cameron_F

[@paulfildes5489]

That was with the Keltec in the gun safe. Could have been for the Sig Sauer or the Keltec - either way one of the cable locks was missing as trigger guards or cable locks are sold with each gun. The gun safe's lock code was the default one - 000. You couldn't make it up! @@MzUpliftingTea

[@danidan9917]

​@@Cameron_Fbut she didn't testify to any of that.

[@Leonimy]

The thing I learnt from this video was that if i was definitely guilty of something I'd sure want CLR Bruce Rivers defending me!

[@EmilyFShockley]

SAME!

[@CherrrrBear]

Same

[@PrinceCharmingsMom2930]

Yup, that’s for sure and luckily I live in MN

[@stephanies5478]

​@@PrinceCharmingsMom2930hopefully you're rich too lol

[@ItzDylanM]

Yeah but I bet he ain't cheap... lol

[@Monty-Remick]

Question... If I buy my teen a firearm and do not secure it with a lock or in a safe, and they use that firearm to kill another person am I not negligent? If I buy a firearm for myself and leave it out and one of my kid's gets a hold of it and god forbid kills someone else or themselves, accident or on purpose, am I not responsible for being negligent in the fact that as a responsible gun owner I did nothing to lock it up safely? What are we talking about... Both those parents knew he had access to a gun and they weren't responsible enough lock it in a safe! 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

[@OneWithTheUniverse55]

Bruce, I read an article in AP that said the school called Mom to school the day of the murders & wanted him removed for his threats & bad behavior. Mom insisted he stay in school, downplaying the threats. I think we need to read the entire transcript. I think this was a Mom so in denial of her son's mental state, she is not only negligent, but ought to be held accountable. Maybe not involuntary manslaughter, but something. I'm not an attorney, but in my book, her negligence is not an excuse for leaving your gun avaliable to a disturbed teenager. The school wanted him out that day. She insisted he stay. 3 hours later kids were dead at his AND her hands. She does have responsibility in these deaths. She CHOSE not to see his instability. She even said she wouldn't do anything differently. How cruel can she be?

[@MsHburnett]

the school counsellor said he would be able to stay at schoolm

[@OneWithTheUniverse55]

The principal wanted him gone, the counselor was siding w the kid. The mom had a responsibility to take his death threats seriously instead of narcissistically thinking he was joking, because how could "HER kid do bad things?" Maybe not manslaughter but criminal neglect.

[@BlessedMomfmTexas]

WRONG!! THE COUNSELOR AND DEAN OF SCHOOL GAVE THEM A CHOICE!! SO MUCH MIS INFORMATION OUT THERE, ITS GROSS!!

[@lisalaursen3684]

Yes. And to add to that, she was at the school meeting for 11 minutes, said she didn’t have time to take Ethan home but had texted her boyfriend to meet up that day so they could have sex. 😖

[@HolidLove]

⁠@@BlessedMomfmTexas Shawn Hopkins, the counselor, recommended the parents take him out of school and get immediate mental health assistance. They declined because they said they didn’t want to miss work, and agreed to take him to a mental health professional within 48 hours. The then-dean, Nicholas Ejak, testified that he didn’t check his bag because he didn’t think there was a reason to. Despite having recently bought the kid a gun (her words, not mine), no one mentioned it to school officials. This is notable because a gun and bullets were drawn in guys book. That was, in part, the reason the meeting was called to begin with. Eiak further stated that he was perplexed at their decision to leave him in school because, “typically, when it’s recommended, the parents take their children to seek out mental assistance immediately, they follow the direction of the mental health professional, and that’s been my experience every time.”

[@SenatorSigma]

This is the first time we disagree on an issue but this was incredibly informative with all of the nuances of manslaughter explained.

[@HumanHamCube]

Disagree on the law?

[@smoocher]

@@HumanHamCube Clearly the jury also disagrees.

[@qwerty112311]

@@smoochera jury found OJ not guilty.

[@CosmicAnimalClan]

@@smoocherhaha they disagreed with OJ too tho tbf

[@ajqueen31]

Strawman argument ​@@CosmicAnimalClan

[@jtodt23]

This is not just a case of "being a bad parent". She neglected him, she lied in court, she dissembled and deflected her role in this, and she fled to avoid responsibility. I am very pleased she and her husband were charged and she's found guilty.

[@juliaroy1382]

That doesn't make her guilty of involuntary manslaughter lol.

[@ezralindsey4902]

Bruce, they left an unsecured firearm in the house with a child they knew had mental health struggles. That's a crime in and of itself. How could they not have foreseen this? Sure seems criminally negligent in causing those deaths.

[@Celisar1]

Didn’t she say the school psychologist told her the son wasn’t a danger and did the school psychologist not mention that the son needed urgent treatment? How was she supposed to know?

[@MissAlissaxX]

This might be the one case that shouldn’t have been a blind react. Love your work Bruce

[@katharineharrison9091]

For me it was that when she went to the school and failed to tell them ‘that’s his gun’ and ‘check his backpack’ and ‘let’s call James to check where the gun is’

[@unbrickablee]

A toy is an object in which a child uses to play, he is not a child and you don't play with guns. Sad to see them call it a toy @therealz360z7

[@rachelleschmidt2114]

Bruce, please watch an entire trial before commenting on it. The reason her boyfriend was brought in was that she texted him before the shooting saying that she was afraid that Ethan was going to do something dumb, to which the boyfriend responded "where is the firearm." She then lied and told him it was in her car, the defense then threw up a smoke screen to have the affair brought in to distract from the written fact that she knew something was up and could have stopped it.

[@user-xq9cl3pw4c]

Amen 🙏🏿 he’s showing his arrogance here. Watches a couple clips and he’s got it all figured out. There’s hours of testimony to consider and the closing prosecution arguments.

[@sashaa911]

Yep and as a firefighter, he immediately knew what to check.

[@dihardpatsfan8168]

I mean, you do not have to watch his videos if you dont like the way he does things. Why should he change what he is doing?!

[@maximusreed9270]

Every time Bruce says "What did she do?" I shout "Nothing! Because she was negligent!"

[@josie4401]

that's the whole point. the level of negligence she displayed does not rise to the standard of her charges. i think she's 100% guilty of some lesser charges, but in order to get her on involuntary manslaughter she has to have acted in some way to cause this. failure to act isn't enough.

[@maximusreed9270]

@josie4401 one definition I found states criminal negligence is a "misfeasance" or "nonfeasance" (see omission), where the fault lies in the failure to foresee and so allow otherwise avoidable dangers to manifest. In some cases this failure can rise to the level of willful blindness, where the individual intentionally avoids adverting to the reality of a situation. I think this definition fits the situation perfectly.

[@theAverageJoe25]

@@josie4401she bought her disturbed violent child a gun…

[@dinkywinky2860]

@@theAverageJoe25 No she did not, her husband did. At least pay attention to the facts.

[@cmsmhp]

@@josie4401 Negligent failure to act is actually a valid basis for charging manslaughter. Go back and read the judge's instructions to the jurors regarding the two theories (one of which must be proven by the state) in play in terms of manslaughter. The one that applies here is the "failure to perform a legal duty" theory. The idea behind that is that Jennifer (and James) were presented with a legal duty once they saw that drawing by Ethan. Their duty, at that point, was to do one of 3 things: check Ethan's backpack themselves, mention the recent gun purchase to the counselor, or take Ethan home. The reason the legal duty came into play - at least in Jennifer's case - is that she admitted on the stand that she did not know if the gun was secured (she just left it up to James). Any reasonable parent who doesn't know if the 9mm gun they just bought for their son was secured - when presented with a drawing of that specific content - would have done one of those 3 things there at the school, just to make sure he didn't have the gun. By failing to exercise reasonable care to ensure that Ethan was removed from the gun at that point, they placed the lives of everyone at the school in jeopardy - thus it was a negligent failure to act.

[@indayloveschocolate]

I’m a parent and a gun owner and I’m not threatened in the slightest by this conviction. She failed so many times but knowing there was unsecured gun in the home after seeing his drawing at the school and failing to use common sense to check the home or his bag is inexcusable. The school didn’t know they purchased their son a HANDGUN. Jury got it 100% right!

[@tiddliewinkse2952]

Please keep sharing this, this needs to be heard.

[@LynetteA68]

As someone who was a paralegal for over 20yrs I can tell you that Defense attorneys ALWAYS over react to guilty verdicts!! 😊

[@hollymeredith4148]

Ethan told someone at the school they went target shooting. So they knew they had guns.

[@privatename2648]

@hollymeredith4148, yep, Shawn Hopkins clearly testified to this, yet somehow dependent counsel (and defendant) appeared to completely miss it. They didn't even bring it up in cross.

[@AnaFernandez-jp5uh]

There is no evidence that anyone but the shooter was aware of the drawings. I just wanted to clarify that point. Should the gun have been secured, absolutely. Should dad have purchased a handgun, absolutely not.

[@lisamcclendon2720]

In Michigan, a parent has the legal duty to take ordinary care to prevent their minor from harming others. EVERYONE KNEW that morning when they were shown that drawing of his plans. They saw the picture of the gun THEY bought him. Picture of someone with bullet holes, blood everywhere. He said HELP ME. The world is dead. The parents had the legal duty to take ordinary care to prevent harm. They did NOTHING. Im sick of the argument that they didn't know, they couldn't have known. They knew that moment that he was asking for help. And did nothing. They neglected their duty when they failed to take ordinary care. Gross negligence resulting in death is involuntary manslaughter. This is what they are charged with. After the meeting, she sent that picture to her boyfriend. He asked her where the gun was. She said in her car. If the boyfriend could see that something could happen and ask where the gun was, mom should have just like any reasonable person. She failed her legal duty which makes her negligent and that negligence resulted in 4 deaths. I don't care what people think he did or didn't tell her leading up to that. That morning, she knew. He drew out his entire plan while saying HELP ME. Guilty of negligence resulting in death.

[@julieo4580]

The school said that they thought he was a danger to HIMSELF not others. They said to keep him at school. They said wow that bag is heavy and never checked it. The school kept stuff from the parents.

[@Amy-dw7ii]

She lied and said the gun was in the car to her boyfriend. I missed that. What a bitch. She knew.

[@traceymitchell6619]

@@julieo4580 Started with the parents, they bought the gun for a kid that's telling them he is having delusions and needed help. If the school thought he was a danger to himself after seeing that drawing she should have too. She couldn't get out of there fast enough. You would think after being sent that photo the first thing she would have done is got home asap to check that gun was still there before going into the school. That drawing had warning signs written all over it.

[@charlie-qh2ll]

That applies to the teachers as well. Will you now demand they all be held accountable for his actions as well?

[@JeffBeesaus]

This is a common retort when the responsibility of parents is brought up, and the answer is yes. The school also failed in their duty and everyone down the line should be held accountable. What's your next "gotcha" going to be?

[@syljm515]

Bruce said 'the defense should back her up with teachers and people who spoke to her'. Thats the problem... They did put teachers, counselors, the person responsible for discipline on the stand! No one backs her up. Watch the entire trial Bruce.

[@powerhousedance]

I watched the entire trial from day 1. She isn’t guilty.

[@julieo4580]

The school didn't tell her shit

[@meglukes]

Yeah because they know that under this DA if they back her up and admit anything that could possibly be construed as foreknowledge then they’re likely going to end up getting charged.

[@JackT-7]

@@meglukesAre you talking about Dana Nessel? If so, you prejudice is peaking out.

[@PotentiallyCriminal]

They did back her up. Nobody saw this coming

[@LaurindaBellinger]

I think when she said she wouldn't do anything different, she sealed her fate.

[@Denbrr]

That was the most obvious wrong answer. I can't believe it fell out of her mouth and that her lawyer asked it.

[@horvathsogranfume658]

her testifying was a mistake imo

[@vichikes]

@@Denbrr Completely wrong. It was a question irrelevant to the charges and clearly didn’t seal her fate.

[@Denbrr]

So you think the jury was wrong?@@vichikes

[@Denbrr]

Also the jurors were interviewed the next day and that was what they cited as the final nail. @@vichikes

[@liquidmomma2226]

My son was in that school, in his classroom in the same hallway as the shooting. It was the most terrifying day of my life. I’ve followed all of these cases very closely. As a lawyer I’m sure you know there tend to be a lot of facts that don’t make it to trial. It’s the one thing I don’t hear any lawyer content creators speaking about and it baffles me. There are so many more things these parents did, or didn’t do, that didn’t make it to trial. For example, mom talked about the picture of him on the 8th grade field trip, the one that other parents had to sit in the school parking lot for an hour waiting with the future shooter because the parents didn’t show up until much later to get him. There are many CPS calls from neighbors about him being alone for hours as a young kid. There’s so much more to this that left the prosecutor with no choice but to try. The one thing the defense has done best is keeping facts out of this case. I have always felt at the most she will get guilty w time served, but there is so much they couldn’t say. The journal didn’t stay out because the parents absolutely knew he had a journal, they told him just to write in his journal about his feelings right in front of the counselor in the school.

[@susanmann5286]

Had no idea about this other information. Thanks.

[@Rtgvshdy]

WOW…. THANK YOU.

[@charlie-qh2ll]

Wait, so the school was aware of how disturbed he was yet still allowed him to attend the school? Why aren't the teachers and school staff also being held accountable for his actions since they could've also done more to ensure this wouldn't happen?

[@New-bl4jg]

"Being a bad parent does not make you criminally negligent"

[@jtrudeau7577]

But according to your statement, the school already knew very well that he had massive problems. Why isn't the Dean on trial, who testified for the prosecution at the trial, stating, among other things, that he saw no problem with leaving the boy at school on the day of the crime because he was "no danger to the school"? So why isn't he charged with involuntary manslaughter? Is there negligence on the part of the parents? Absolutely. But where do we draw the line here?

[@rnangel69]

PS: in trial it was revealed that the HS only had 1 social worker!!! Has anybody looked at how much of their budget went to sports? Just 1 of the reasons i resigned after years as a school psychologist...

[@StrawberryPopTart4]

She was found guilty today of 4 charges of manslaughter. My take is that you don’t buy your kid things like weapons to make them happy. Edit to add: The judge will give Jennifer the minimum…

[@origamikami3486]

Are you bringing sarcastic?

[@lisadavis9535]

The mother of the Sandyhook shooter did the same thing, but of course, she was never tried because he killed her first.

[@dr1flush]

@@lisadavis9535she might have been. Courts don’t prosecute the deceased

[@StrawberryPopTart4]

Btw~ I predict the residing judge is going to give Jennifer C. the minimum time. No more than 3 years. Idk why, I just feel it will settle the dispute between those who feel she was not responsible and those who disagree.

[@josie4401]

you'd better take that back that's akin to blasphemy in America! how dare you imply that we shouldn't be recklessly handing out lethal weapons to children and mentally unstable people. what are you, some kind of commie?

[@tigerlilygirl2643]

Even if you don't think the school shooting was foreseeable, what about the danger of your depressed kid commiting suicide after drawing on that paper??? There is no parent i know that wouldn't have taken their kid out of school right there and then...

[@HarperGamble]

When your 15 year old kid is noticeably “down,” and you go and buy a gun for him, I think that is criminal stupidity.

[@mrsshagsswagfrosty]

It's definitely a lot of things, but to charge the parents is not a good place to go.

[@ComradeCage]

It is an insane reach to go from "my kid is down enough to not go bowling" to "My child is going to become the next school shooter". Shame on you for trying to make that gap look smaller than it is.

[@juliaroy1382]

But guess what? Not a criminal offense.

[@jordanferguson7425]

Looks like the jury disagrees with you@@juliaroy1382

[@macysondheim]

Criminal stupidity isn’t a charge.

[@deannamarie8389]

Ooohhh, Bruce, I have disagree with you on this one. Ethan Crumbley told his parents he was having visual and auditory hallucinations. Ethan BEGGED his parents for help and to please get him therapy, they ignored him. Jennifer Crumbley laughed at her son when he told her that, the father told him to "suck it up." This school shooting happened right next to me, the shooter was absolutely 100% failed by his parents. Ethan Crumbley is apparently doing better in prison cuz he's receiving proper mental health treatment there. *Ethan was no longer in bowling. *Ethan rarely worked. *Jennifer Crumbley lied on the stand (more than once), which is why the prosecutor asked her if she understood she was under oath and knew what a lie was. *Jennifer Crumbley was the last person in possession of the gun. She is the one who failed to lock up the weapon. *FYI- both parents talked about getting their son the weapon. Both parents agreed on buying him the gun. Jennifer Crumbley went to the shooting range with her husband and son, she said it was a family event. *Also, the cable lock was NEVER even opened. It was never placed on the gun, it was in the original, unopened package.

[@curiositykilledkat1]

I don’t think there is much doubt they were bad parents. They are not on trial for neglect or negligent parenting though. They are on trial for involuntary manslaughter which means that they are being accused (and she is now convicted) of being reckless as to the reasonably foreseeable result of her actions being that her son would kill those people. I don’t think that it was reasonably foreseeable to her that he would kill people and I don’t think therefore she can be found to have been reckless regarding that to the extent that charge requires. Reasonably foreseeable consequences for Ethan of their dysfunctional marriage, substance abuse, poor supervision etc might very well be that he developed depression or substance use/behavioural issues but did she have insight into her behaviour & did she know how he was feeling? They didn’t prove that I think. Is it reasonably foreseeable that a depressed teenager who feels as though nobody is helping him, not school, not home, nobody, will shoot up his school? With hindsight maybe but with foresight? It seems like Ethan did not share what he wrote in his journal with people, parents & school didn’t communicate effectively with each other what they each knew about him. I think all the adults around Ethan failed to help him, the school, his family but does that mean they should be held criminally responsible for him taking a gun and, after a long period of premeditation, executing several other children? Not in my view. Perhaps they should be held legally responsible for their neglect of him but that is different to the idea that they knew he was or was very likely to kill people and just didn’t care.

[@WickedWitchOfOz1]

​@@curiositykilledkat1​part of finding someone guilty of manslaughter is proving there was gross negligence. So yes, the parents being neglectful to their child trying to communicate to them he needs mental help and then buying him the murder weapon is relevant to them being guilty.

[@curiositykilledkat1]

@@WickedWitchOfOz1 gross negligence re the death though, not negligent parenting.

[@KD214_]

Ethan also wrote in his journal that he gave his dad the money for the gun. If that comes into the dad’s trial he is toast.

[@tigerlilygirl2643]

​@@curiositykilledkat1thank you

[@Mari-go5hc]

My husband was a gun collector. He hunted he would target shoot His dad raised him around guns. The entire family were big hunters. I hated guns. My father never owned a gun that I was aware of. After I had my kids I wanted no guns in the house. My husband built a room under our garage with a heavy metal door that he alone had the keys to. That's where the guns went. As my kids grew they were taught gun safety. My son started hunting with his dad and he learned everything he needed to know about guns. My daughter would go targeting shooting with her dad. My point is this. We had guns, my kids knew it. They were locked away. We never had a problem. I thank God for that!

[@BlackCatBonkers]

You and your husband are responsible, good parents.

[@Hwarang-lee.]

Yeah the fact that this kid used guns to commit his crimes is almost irrelevant the kid was begging for help so much so that he wrote about it multiple times in his journals and the parents failed to help or act THEY are also liable.

[@micnorton9487]

And I was also,, my old man had all kinds of guns and they were always in one room, unfortunately it wasn't locked but we knew we weren't supposed to go in there... He did teach us to shoot when we were really young, me and my brothers and although he gave us BB guns at first, at like 9 or 10 he gave us 22s and a 410 shotgun but the point is, even though we could have just kept them in our rooms we didn't... And he didn't give us any pistols, which is where I think these parents really messed up... You don't just give a kid a pistol and especially if you live in town and especially if the kid is kind of shall we say a little odd.... There's lots of odd people around and most of them are perfectly fine however what kind of idiot parent gives their kid a pistol AND ammunition AND then fills their own life with extramarital affairs and stupid stuff to the extent that they don't even know what their own kid is doing?

[@BlackCatBonkers]

@@Hwarang-lee. -that’s the part those Crumbleys can’t justify. Their kid is begging for mental health help and they didn’t give him held….they didn’t even give him their time.

[@BlackCatBonkers]

@@micnorton9487 -exactly right!

[@justinwaddell2956]

First time I’ve disagreed with CLR. If a parent buys a bottle of vodka for their child who is not of legal age, and that child kills someone in a drunk driving accident, most people would be OK with prosecuting the parent. A parent buying an underage kid a handgun is the same scenario. Lock her up.

[@Beowulf891]

A teenage boy who was clearly mentally distressed and wanted help, but was denied. Ethan still made the choice to do what he did but his parents failed him completely.

[@TravisDoesGames]

That seems not entirely fair to the parent

[@user-bx2bc7nu3v]

My first time disagreeing as well. I have to agree with you.

[@jjjackson8489]

I think we all agree here in theory, Bruce can’t help but view things through a legal defense lense.

[@ImAlxxy]

This is the exact comparison I use even saying vodka lol. That is the pure reason I would accept charges being put on the parents. The added evidence about ignoring mental illnesses and not removing their child from school the day of when school staff had said he needs help also heavily salts my opinion. I do find a trap in our logic that I don't have a clear answer for, how would I feel if the kid was instead 18 or 19, still under 21 and thus not allowed to legally acquire the vodka or that weapon.

[@nrjaz4600]

Whenever I see Bruce post a 1 hour+ video I lose my absolute shit

[@carlycaye90]

the long videos breathe life back into us

[@tom_shredz]

“Guy watches Bruce rivers video, absolutely LOSES his mind, TASER DEPLOYED!!” Your Bruce rivers reaction video lol 😂

[@giovannchavez]

@@carlycaye90😊😊

[@Him_He_Me]

[@nowherenothere]

here for it

[@HostileWorkplaceEXPOSED]

In 1986 my brother murdered somebody when he was 17 years old and high on meth. My parents were horrible parents and to this day I still believe they should have been held responsible. My parents hated their children and told us every day how much of a burden we were to them. They had six children. For that lived with them. I'm going to refuse to say they raised us because we raised ourselves. Look into aces. Adverse childhood experiences proves that how we are raised affects our brains. This research has been around for decades and decades. I am sure glad she was found guilty and I wish my parents would have been held accountable im 1986.

[@ZenDreaming60]

❤❤

[@dk-ux4fz]

I love your post! You are so right on. My parents were made us feel like we were just a pain raising us. Many Years later I found out something horrible that happened in our house under their watch. My parents were just as responsible as the “perpetrator.”

[@CatwomanMeowz]

Right on. My “parents” were awful to me and my siblings too. Our “mother” would constantly tell us how much she wanted to run away to somewhere nobody called her Mom. Real sweet lady, that “mom”.

[@marycarricaburu3683]

Hugs, My mother did not hate me, she just never cared about me, her own words.

[@julial3325]

So how come you came out ok? How bad can your parents be if you didn't murder anyone?

[@katefox7692]

I can’t get over the fleeing, leaving their son to navigate the police interview/lawyer all that by himself. And it’s about time parents were held responsible for leaving guns accessible. Btw hi Brucey 😊

[@haleyshappenings829]

I can’t get over that part either. As a mother, that part isn’t sitting right with me. I think charges should certainly be filed but I’m not convinced manslaughter is appropriate. They seem like neglectful, shitty parents that seriously failed their child but I can’t see how parents could have imagined their child would do this. I imagine there has to be more appropriate charges.

[@joank.0421]

Agree. I think they were crap parents and completely out of touch with their son. As a mom to 2x teens, we have constant check-ins. The guns we own are in a heavy-duty locked safe.

[@mollymaciulla1917]

@@joank.0421 thank you for being a responsible firearm owner 🥹 especially with teens. Truly.

[@lawncuttingplusdelta]

I think Bruce made a great point when saying it’s always easier to see a problem in hindsight

[@janedixon8491]

Mom got caught in a lie….. she knew he had that gun the night before!

[@paw-prints839]

Exactly!! She lied on the stand more than once.

[@lindatexas5906]

Didn't she say gun was in her car, when BF asked?

[@mickeyphillips6603]

Mom was having too much fun having an affair to worry about her son or the safety of others.

[@macysondheim]

@@mickeyphillips6603having an affair isn’t a crime. I really wish she could somehow switch places with you, so you would be locked away instead…. Grrrr

[@joshuagarcia839]

52:47 “I’m into horses, I’m in to skiing, I’m in to Fucking around” 💀😭😭 Had me dead😂

[@rchristy5767]

Yes those things had nothing to do, but she was still guilty of ignoring her child had scary issues

[@B_Bodziak]

She needs a new attorney who knows how to object. It took her atty SO LONG.

[@M_R1der]

I know you have better understanding of the law, but as a teacher for 15 years, we rely on parents to do the parenting. It's honestly difficult and sometimes scary to tell parents that their kid isn't successful in one way or another. I've been reamed through emails, on the phone, and in person. Parents try to go after our teaching certificates because they don't like what we are telling them. The school said he wasn't a risk because no one informed the school he had access to a gun...that would have been a very different situation I'm sure!

[@derfrosch1487]

When you people tech kids about transgenders and stray away from basic biology, your certification should be pulled. You are the danger in the country.

[@PandaBear62573]

While I know there are crappy parents out there who don't want to believe their kid is capable of failing or being a bad kid, teachers and school administrators do keep important things from parents. At two separate elementary schools in different states, my son was bullied and punched. The only way I found out is from my son telling me at both schools. One time he got pink eye from getting punched in the eye and his doctor confirmed he had ocular bruising from the punch. The school refused to punish the bully. I was punishing my son at home for not doing his schoolwork and lying about his homework but the school refused to punish him. He's an adult now and has told me he didn't do the homework because he knew the school wouldn't do anything about it. There are situations where the school doesn't communicate with the parents and doesn't take appropriate actions.

[@veroniquedemauroet7489]

@mollyrider9044: As a professor, I agree 💯! Even if the school had an iota of suspicion he was dangerous, yes, they should have called the parents. However, I don't just leave it up to administration, I call myself. Having said that, it's the parents responsibility to call the school, talk to teachers and basically, stay involved! Schools aren't daycare & were not babysitters. Let me ask you: How many parents take the time to show up for Open House these days?

[@stevensakers9146]

Screw your teaching license. The kid said “I’m going to buy a gun and hurt people” have you lost your mind putting the blame on others? Even if it cost your teaching license is it worth the life of the other children? You people make me sick. Disgusting.

[@louhortonsculpture]

Yes. I agree with this completely. The parents are so unconcerned with the wellbeing of their child, more like they are offended that you noticed a problem. These parents are insane and should be held accountable! They act like they own the child until the child commits a crime, then the kid is on his own. It’s insane. And denial is sometimes the issue, but sometimes they know and have no concern for the child or anyone else.

[@divinadecosio]

I'm psychologist and once had a schizophrenic teenager as patient. I was very worried about his symptoms and talked to the mother. She totally refused my diagnosis and refused to continue with the sessions and as far as I know either to get another opinion. We human tend to denie our problems and also to judge others because it's easier to look the grass on the neighbor's yard, and that's what I see here.

[@elvisman8721]

Parents buying liquor for a minor who kills in a drunk driving accident can be prosecuted, no different than a gun, really shocked you don’t see it.

[@Etrius10]

Guilty verdict, thank God. And yes, big L take from Bruce here.

[@user-xq9cl3pw4c]

@@Etrius10yep big L. Seems like he’s biased and making a lot of assumptions. Also he’s not a big fan of prosecutors if I’m correct 😒 lol

[@lucasnicastro-story3828]

Isn’t the minor allowed to own a gun? Genuinely asking, not trying to be facetious - if he is allowed to own the gun, I do see a difference in the two, although I’m not saying it’s right

[@chrishansen8201]

​@@user-xq9cl3pw4cit's his first time looking at the case..of course hes making assumptions

[@Oreo-gd2zq]

I disagree. It's more analogous to parents buying their teenager a car, which the kid then kills someone with by choosing to drink and drive.

[@loriswenson2276]

The affair was part of the case due to the defense attorney. It wasn’t going to be allowed into evidence until she opened the line of question and screwed it up for her own defendant.

[@BallzDeep666]

I swear 99% of people don’t realize this cause they only watch news clips.

[@hissallymyjack4684]

I thought she did it to show that the affair didn't necessarily take time away from Ethan because she was doing it when Ethan was in school 🤷🏼‍♀️

[@MsChristinaLS]

@@BallzDeep666right…. Just like the guy who made this video lol 😂 clearly only watched snippets of this trial.

[@polly6336]

The defense attorney is doing more harm than good. Mrs Crumbley would've fared better with freebie State defense rather than this pro bono bonehead.

[@jtrudeau7577]

That's true, but on the other hand it didn't stop the prosecution from referring to it again and again during the cross - right up to the absurd statement that she had spent time not only carrying out but "planning" the meetings with lovers in order to insinuate that this "planning time" had somehow taken away time with her son. The shaming in this case was completely out of proportion and just absurd. The vast majority of the arguments were a nothingburger.

[@SexinessSquared]

The school didnt buy a gun for a 15 year old and then leave it in an accessible place. The parents did.

[@SexinessSquared]

Yes, if you buy a gun for your child, you are responsible for how they use it. Should not be debatable.

[@ChrisCardenDrums]

Mr Rivers, I have to respectfully disagree with your take. One of the key differences being that they provided their son with the weapon. He had no legal right to a weapon, it would be no different than handing a 15 year old a bottle of booze and the keys to your car and just saying "now make sure you don't do anything dumb" then he gets drunk, goes for a joyride, and hits and kills somebody. I agree with the premise that not all negligence is criminal, and kids aren't robots, but she definitely crossed the line and kept walking about a mile, giving her child, who she knew had some screws loose, a deadly weapon. All due respect, love the channel. Thanks.

[@TravisDoesGames]

In Europe, as long the parents did not give him keys they would not be found at fault. Honestly this could go either way. There’s a billion shit ass parents. There’s not a billion school shooters. I think both parties suck, but i guess i feel like terrible parenting isn’t necessarily criminal.

[@eric6cartman9]

im inclined to agree with you, and luckily so was the court

[@TravisDoesGames]

They never handed it to him for him to keep. Where is this mile past the line? Everyone got a screw loose. Doing shit like shooting guns can make some people feel better. Some people are just evil like their child. These parents are evil but theyre not criminals imo

[@dread357]

And i think she was trying to pretend those loose screws weren't really loose! It seems like many parents think loosely along the lines of: you're a kid you can't have any serious problems that can't be chalked up to teen angst and or rebellion and they'll grow out of it. And parents may think getting their child help somehow is going to reflect negatively on their parenting skills, the material things they're able to provide or not and they believe that if their child sees a mental health professional that child will be negatively labeled for life. All of which probably place the parents needs above the childs i think. It's hard for me to understand that this mom was herself seeing a mental health professional and was rx-ed nerve meds but she completely missed that her son (who she testified she was close with) wanted help with his mental health🫤

[@HeyTezza]

She said there is nothing she would do differently. After all this time mulling over all the signs she missed, she’s still like “nope, not my problem”. It must have killed the victims families hearing her say that.

[@hissallymyjack4684]

I think it comes across that way but even looking back she really didn't feel he was a danger to others not that it wasn't her problem she did not see any red flags there was nothing that was sticking out to her

[@SusanMarie3]

Agree 💯

[@lizadoesray]

That part was really effing sad

[@PotentiallyCriminal]

Shit happens. It wasn't her fault

[@talyahr3302]

​@PotentiallyCriminal Giving a kid at that age a gun is absolutely insane and I'm pretty sure ILLEGAL??

[@QueenOfTheNorth65]

I have to disagree with you here, Bruce. There were so many texts from Ethan to his mother telling her that he was seeing and hearing things, and begging her to come home. These texts went unanswered. They had no health insurance for him, yet seemingly had plenty of money for horses. Ethan had asked his parents for mental help but his mother just laughed (this was evidence in court). If they had gotten him help, there is a good chance he may have never murdered those people. And this isn’t even taking into account the gun.

[@rnangel69]

Thank you!! From a former school psychologist...

[@shaynalange7488]

Along with that,the fact he is 15, begged for help over and over and was ignored is negligence. Buying a gun where he could have access to it or know where to find it, is also negligent. If the parents got him help, didn't have weapons available in the home, then this may not have happened.

[@jamc666]

@@shaynalange7488 .... long live the 2nd amendment ... at the expense of everybody else

[@MB-ml8ti]

​@rnangel69 school psychologists should have also been held accountable then because they said with their professional opinion that he was not a risk.

[@rainbowblitz9896]

Ya, you know. Cause that damned gun did the shooting on its own. Stupid 2nd amendment.

[@jbeers1234]

I’d say buying your crazy kid a gun is the definition of parents saying “fuck it”…

[@cestmoifu1406]

LITERALLY!

[@melissagatlin1976]

Agreed.

[@tammyburke9453]

Yep 👍

[@Violexie-wb7op]

Agreed

[@AltuveLJ]

How would they possibly know their kid is going to jump to the final level of shooting up a fucking school? I mean if my kid were depressed I would try to figure out WTF is going on but I wouldn’t immediately assume, “oh no my kid is going to shoot up a school.” The way the parents handled the whole getting their son a gun, that’s what went wrong in this case. Father should’ve been way more attentive and should’ve made sure those guns were locked up at any time they weren’t being used at a range.

[@unbrickablee]

The issue is...she did know, the school contacted her multiple times in regards to threats and drawings her son has made. The school asked if it's alright to take Ethan home and she denied saying, "He shouldn't miss any more work." She was aware of the threats and violence her son was putting out there. Ethan was given the gun and taken to the shooting range by his mother as well. She posted a story saying something along the lines of, "Mom and Son trying out new Xmas gift." She testified the reason she didn't secure it was because it was more of her husbands job. After the pictures that Ethan crudely drew that depicted him with a g^n and another subject, the school counselor suggested giving Ethan immediate mental health treatment, which promoted the mother do nothing and declined due to not wanting him to miss school work. The text messages Ethan sent to his friends could all genuinely be a lie, a cry for help, so the text messages really can't be used if Jennifer says, "He never asked me that." or so forth. There were many pieces of evidence she was given towards Ethan's mental health, she did know. The verdict she was given is very acceptable, as to the multiple comments. She did kill someone, she knew.

[@tumbleweed576]

That’s right unbrickablee ‼ I would have taken my child from the school that day and I would have spoken to him lovingly, but we’d talk and then see a professional. This kid was reaching out practically screaming for help, but mommy had a boyfriend and her horses and stuff.

[@stephernoodle]

I think you’re missing some of the evidence here. She lied several times during her testimony. For 1, she says the cable lock was kept on the gun, but the state had the lock there in the room and it had never been opened from its packaging. For 2, she said they took his phone away the day before the shooting, but he recorded a video with his phone that night in their shed. Anyway, she’s convicted which I think is the correct verdict based on the instructions the jury was given

[@juliaroy1382]

Use common sense. Do you have a teenager? If my parents took my phone away i snuck it back. He was literally in a shed. 😂 You think if he had permission to have that cell phone he would've been hanging out in a SHED?

[@privatename2648]

Defendant is a TERRIBLE communicator, I could NOT BELIEVE she didn't say that! She should have said, we did not give it back, he must have taken it without permission, DUH!

[@KD214_]

@@juliaroy1382he was in shed bc the mother kicked him out of the house that night over missing assignments. This was discussed in the trial… she also slipped and said “we took the gun range away and his gun” then a few minutes later when the prosecutor Called her out on saying they took his gun away and she said oh I meant phone. Come on now.

[@angelathomas4301]

Typical of the US to blame the parent particularly the Mum, let’s NOT blame your gun laws let’s deflect let’s find a little woman who can be mad3 to seem like a villain, and who is already quite submissive to the system, who’s parenting skills are not wonderful and maybe could have done things differently, but by no means are they criminal. How many other parents do exactly the same things, how many are so busy trying to keep their heads above the water to make ends meet, to me this all seems ludicrous. The parent who should be looked at is the ones running your country, look at your gun laws, look at your policing! I would also be looking at the school they were aware of things that should have been shared with the parents, that school let it’s pupils down drastically. This is so sad lives ruined for ever, and I can imagine they want retribution but honestly I think your going down a dangerous path doing this,I see a rocky road ahead especially for women in the US, with your abortion laws and the way women are treated in your criminal system, it is diabolical!

[@ronnieroo227]

Agree, she told him don't get caught which was her plan for life.....well she got caught now 😊

[@lynnette9046]

What is proper accountability then for this? Surely there is some responsibility since we know often school shooting the gun is owned by parents, in the parents home, not secured. She is in custody because she ran for Canadian boarder.

[@charlie-qh2ll]

The proper accountability lies with the perpetrator, Ethan.

[@Pugetwitch]

border*

[@Bubbleguppy_sometimesVR]

NO lmao. She didn't run to the border 😂

[@Bubbleguppy_sometimesVR]

Seriously find your brain and stop getting "facts" from social media.

[@lisalaursen3684]

Exactly. This unstable teenager, who had been fantasizing about committing violence for a significant time, would not have had access to a gun if his parents hadn’t provided him one, taught him to use it, and left it unsecured. Just before he went on his killing rampage he was in the school office with his parents discussing the violent drawings and statements he made on his math work. The parents refused to take him home.

[@tjrs26]

as of 2 mins ago, she was found guilty on all 4 counts

[@gilbertosilva3461]

This reminds me of a lecture where my criminal justice professor (phd and attorney) had mentioned how a farmer could be charged for manslaughter for loose livestock that caused a vehicle collision resulting in death.

[@nunyabiz7699]

Technically that is the case. But they would have to prove negligence and that the accident was a foreseeable event that any reasonable person with the same level of knowledge would be able to either predict or anticipate. On top of that they would have to then show not only did he NOT take action to prevent it. But also did not live up to the social or legal contracts that his position and property would entail. For a Farmer it would be like having a fence. Or a method of making sure the live stock does not interfere with traffic. Doing periodic checks. And if even the bare min is done. Most likely the charges would not stick. Problem here.... There was no bare min. The parents were made aware of his issues. And of his mental state. They did not take it seriously. That in and of its self is not enough. But Combined with lack of actual parental guidance or care. The Providing a fire arm to him. Lack of care in securing fire arm. Failure to act when the school contacted them the first time. LYING to the school. Failure to act the day of when they were shown evidence that any reasonable person would see and arrive at a conclusion of action needing to be taken. Failure to inform the School about the firearm or take any action to ascertain its location. And also add in that She in particular lied about why and was in fact with an affair partner at the time. (moral implications don't mater. It was the fact that it was a personal thing to attend to rather than a work one and one for enjoyment rather than necessity. Proving that they failed to take it seriously enough.) It was not just one thing. If either parent had taken even the smallest measure before the day of. This would not have even made it to trial. Hell the Judge practically babied the defense team on this one. Parents can be held responsible for Damages of property of their minor Children. They can be held responsible for the Children skipping school. They can be held responsible for if the Children get into Drugs they have or Alcohol. We have Precedent for hold them responsible for some of a Minors actions. This is just a case where said actions were Murder. And yes he was charged as an adult. For his Actions that day. However their is nothing in the legal system saying others could not be charged with accessory or with neglect.

[@kandice278]

Why would you buy a gun for that kid? What responsible parent enables a depressed kid to own a gun. Yes, her actions enabled his actions to happen. They didn’t buy him a gun to hunt wildlife in Michigan.

[@usaroxx8085]

Because who says he was depressed? His journal? And you know she knew this journal contents? This is laughable

[@davilanetworks382]

@@usaroxx8085 this kid had a record of bad behavior going back years, no one in their right mind should purchase a gun for someone like that. He was publicly making death threats to people..........

[@OshunMoon-bq8ne]

His mom said that he was depressed.

[@hollymeredith4148]

Ethan clearly states in his apology video to his parents that he was sorry for tricking them and making them trust him. They considered his journal private and didn’t see it. Ethan put his journal in his backpack for the world to see. It was intentional to make them look bad and get sympathy. These parents are not a danger to society, why are we paying for their existence the rest of their lives?

[@ComradeCage]

"Depressed" no, what she said was he felt "down" and he didnt want to go bowling. how do you infer that to condemn someone who may have very well not known better? @@OshunMoon-bq8ne

[@bixbysnyder-00]

Everyone likes 'rights', but many have hard time dealing with the accompanying 'responsibilities'

[@constancesims18]

That part.😮

[@Roguewarrior37]

So parents need to be mental health experts?

[@kamkam3457]

@@Roguewarrior37No but people with guns need to be responsible for choices they make with guns

[@kriggo1]

​@@kamkam3457and I think the kid got held responsible for his actions. No parents goes around and think their kids gonna grow up to become a school shooter

[@JohnDoe-qz1ql]

You didn't even Watch the video, huh!? Talkin out your 💩🕳️.

[@kikusama]

I watched and listened to everything. normally I'd agree parents should not get blamed for their kid's actions. However, in this case, its different. The mom literally told her son "next time don't get caught'' when Ethan was looking at gun violence videos in school. Ethan asked for help numerous times to his mom. she laughed at him. This case is very different than other school shootings. the mom was the last adult to have the gun after the shooting range. she didn't lock it up properly. The school asked them to take him home and get him professional help...... and the parents didn't do that. Plus, the mom was soooo unlikable on the stand. The jury said what pushed them to choose "guilty" was that the mom sat there and said she did nothing wrong, and that she would have done nothing differently. Normally a parent would say 'I wish I got him help' but she didn't. She came off cold, called her son "a mistake/oopsss baby'' She was a horrible mom and wife (she was having affairs). No, she didn't kill anyone. But she knew Ethan had issues, she knew Ethan was having killing thoughts. he would tell his mom "I'm having those thoughts again." the mom 100% knew more then the school did. the mom knew he had issues, she would tell her co-workers and others.

[@KBtx23]

The entire saga of the Crumbley family was the parents' failure to act responsibly as parents. This isnt an issue of parents who made an occasional error out of exhaustion or stress. It' s an issue of parents who were consistently unavailble for their child. And then when he's jailed, they run. The mother still says she would do nothing different. Im just wondering at this point whether she's a total narcissist or just incredibly stupid.

[@CmlDexter]

According to this lawyer, it is legal to be a narcissist, being more into horses, skiing, and be promiscuous than taking care of your kid because you know... is protected by law! Remember we live in a society were protecting the rights of people is more important than being a responsible parent... and this lawyer is totally cool with it. Or rather, he is cool with it because he needs chaos in the world to justify his profession and make bread.... Rights are more important than morals according to him!

[@thejumper7282]

Americans will literally blame everything but themselves for not having gun control

[@BlueAlien2]

Narcissists can be incredibly emotionally stupid. A few of them even lie well.

[@carrow1057]

Mum knew enough to get herself Xanax for her anxiety. Yet she told Ethan to suck it up with regards to his depression. "I knew he was sad...depressed" She knew what to do. Come on!

[@abeltesfaye_]

GREAT POINT!!! Hope the prosecution addresses this.

[@Pugetwitch]

Teens get depressed from time to time, you don't go out and put them on xanax. What the hell is wrong with you! Depression doesn't always need ssris, that's for a serious chemical imbalance, not hormonal changes or situational depression

[@Pugetwitch]

boo hoo

[@UnhungHero]

Also SSRI's are sometimes more dangerous for teens than the depression itself.

[@EarthsField]

There is no proof she said to suck it up. It’s hearsay.

[@carlyrussell7297]

You should watch the whole trial, the gun was not locked at all.

[@lilkevin219]

Even if they didn't use it, they bought a lock, which shows intent that they thought about safety at some point.

[@soude85]

@@lilkevin219 It’s not enough to *think* about safety, lock your effing guns!!

[@Xzcvr]

@@lilkevin219imagine being this stupid, you need help

[@LadyBirch]

@@soude85and ammunition. But didn’t she say she but didn’t she say she hid the ammunition?

[@ofagehomegirlbasicfemale]

@@LadyBirchthey hid both separately, or at least Dad did. If you look into that community, guns are pretty common and so is going to the shooting range for kids there. Ethan was failed by his parents but he was failed by the school too and the community overall, as many people said they had concerns about him but kept them quiet. The legal issue people seem to have is that the parents were charged with Manslaughter, when they personally didn’t commit the crime. Negligence charges might have been more appropriate legally, but the community was clearly angry this occurred and the DAs charges certainly represent that anger and desire to punish this family for Ethans personal actions that he was charged as an adult in.

[@GLeon-ov9yu]

Michigan resident here - I 100% Agree with the verdict & the precedent it sets to hold parents accountable for parenting and hold parents accountable for the actions of their minor children.

[@BatkoNashBandera774]

the only thing I don't agree with, because I'm not sure if there is capital punishment in the state where this took place: otherwise electrocution followed by firing squad while still strapped to same chair.

[@TravisDoesGames]

There’s not enough evidence to prove without a reasonable doubt she was criminally negligent

[@Pants.69]

I’m also a Michigan resident and I respectfully disagree with the verdict and the precedent it sets. I do however agree that she failed miserably as a parent and she should probably not be the parent to another child

[@honeygirl769]

I will remember to remind you that you said that when you have kids and are convicted of a crime that your kids committed. It is easy to JUDGE when you don't have kids or that it's not your kids committing the Crime. Wow ... People are amazing in their JUDGEMENT OF OTHERS. God Bless all of those who lost love one's by this kid. Prayers that will lessen in time. RIP to all who lost their lives. God Bless You All. In Jesus Name. Amen 🙏🙏🙏💯💯

[@megnado5325]

When she was asked if she would have done anything different and she said no, that rubbed me the wrong way. Not sure testifying was a great idea, she just came off as unlikeable to me.

[@marcusolsen96]

You realise that she meant if she only had the same information that was available to her at the time, right?

[@act2lifeafter50]

That one statement sealed her coffin.

[@asafoster7954]

​@@marcusolsen96no lol, that isn't what the question was. The question was "would you do anything differently?" That totally assumes you do have the knowledge of today

[@marcusolsen96]

@@asafoster7954You cannot be serious? So according to you, the question was actually “if you had known that in a few hours, your son would take the lives of four other students and injure several more - would you have done something different?” I don’t know what else to say, except that you and everyone else who believes that’s the question she was answering, are fools… But at least it makes more sense to me now, how it’s possible for so many fools to want to take this woman’s life from her. She’s already lost her son. Leave her alone ffs. But no, ofc not - because this world is a cruel place and true empathy is something that barely even exists at all.

[@asafoster7954]

@@marcusolsen96 that's the question she was asked lol

[@latinbeautymaria]

It’s a dangerous precedent to say parents are in no way responsible for the actions of their minor children, especially if it’s due to an unsecured weapon you purchased for them.

[@gigiarroyo3939]

@latinbeautymaria Agreed!

[@JohnDoe-qz1ql]

Unsecured?? 🤨

[@dozekarTheCursed]

@@JohnDoe-qz1ql It's one thing to provide a child with a gun and control when and where they can use it. It's another to provide access to a weapons that is not secured against their use at inappropriate times (if only because they're a child and children are by nature less experienced and make more mistakes. Mistakes with a gun are hard to take back).

[@Pugetwitch]

@@dozekarTheCursed he stole it. That happens even with secured weapons. Children often are diligent and can figure out how to break into things without the other party knowing

[@JohnDoe-qz1ql]

@@dozekarTheCursed Well That's ay the Center of this case. The mom Did testify that safety measures Were taken...

[@kathychapin6421]

Oh Bruce I usally agree with you but I have watched this case from Day 1 and in this trial there is so much Evidence in this case! Mom knew her son was ill for a long time! He asked his mom for help and seeing demons. One Phone Call To Get Him Help and we wouldnt be here! Also you dont buy a gun and not secure it when these Parents knew

[@TravisDoesGames]

She’s not trained to identify mental illness. Yeah she should have been a lot better as a parent. Yeah the gun should have been locked up. Is she criminally negligent?

[@ChrisMorray]

@@TravisDoesGames Yes. According to the jury, yes she was. She's not trained to identify mental illness, but she repeatedly shut down her son's request to get some.

[@grimaceisbest]

Maybe it’s cause I’m not American, but I think in the US in particular, giving your troubled teen access to a gun is completely irresponsible.

[@MrKadvaga]

American here, agree with you completely.

[@janedixon8491]

Why did they run? Why didn’t they stay and help their son? That’s odd right?

[@melissagatlin1976]

The mom TESTIFIED she didn’t know about the texts. I watched the whole crummy trial. I didn’t believe her at all.

[@debralewis6437]

They bought a child a gun, ignored his cries for help and didn’t even think about the fact that he might be in possession of the gun, I believe warrants punishment.

[@mofrm6-070]

Not they* THE DAD bought the gun. Did u watch the video?

[@deedee3568]

That's the USA for you. Does not happen In Australia!!!

[@jacobturnbow2158]

What "cries for help" were they aware of? They knoll thought it was him after it happened, which is new evidence to form an opinion/impression at the time. That doesn't prove they knew in advance. I would argue they could have known in advance as long as ordinary care of the weapon was taken (not perfect care). You don't have to report on crimes.

[@riisky2411]

@@deedee3568yeah let’s all strive to be like Australia! Where our government arrests us for leaving our house !

[@natemann13]

@@riisky2411 That's a very hyperbolic and wide reaching statement. Care to elaborate with something non hyperbolic?

[@sophieloves7092]

I hear you but as parents we should be responsible for our childrens actions just like if they throw a rock into ur window

[@HomeStudioMovies]

Did that actually when I was 12. My parents made me take responsibility and pay for it. I worked it off on a dairy farm. It taught me responsibility

[@Jennifermcintyre]

Bruce!! The parents wouldn’t spend the money to get him insurance or get him psychiatric help when he said he was hallucinating and seeing demons but instead she was spending 20k on horses!! I just don’t know how you buy a depressed child a gun.. don’t use the free safety locking device given to you by the gun store.. then a couple days later.. the son is caught searching for bullets while in class by the teacher.. the mom responds with “just don’t get caught LOL” then a day or two later Mom and Dad were called In because he drew a picture of a shot up person.. “blood is everywhere” and a picture of his gun. Instead of taking him out of school and getting him help as the school had told her to .. she leaves him at school. Once the shooting was announced she wrote him “don’t do it” because she knew it was him.. she didn’t even contemplate that he wasn’t the shooter. She knew!

[@Christine-dz6wh]

Of course because if she didn't leave him at school she would have no time to have her affair. She's a trash parent.

[@BrandonGuidry]

She didn't kill anybody, her son did... YEAH with a GUN bought by the PARENTS 🙄 hello

[@ZenDreaming60]

And she is the one who bought the bullets!

[@BrandonGuidry]

@@ZenDreaming60 Exactly, Thank you

[@natemann13]

Bruce, my man, I was a legal assistant for an attorney in Minneapolis in criminal and family law back in 2011 (pretty sure I shared an office with an attorney you worked with). I now work in corporate law still in the Twin Cities, and I frickin' love your vids and your honest and non-legalese analysis. My partner, who is not a lawyer, is a huge fan too! And God bless your grandma.

[@eldermillenial6335]

The god bless your grandma comment took me OUT 😂

[@theelletrain4775]

You gotta root for Grandma, she’s a real pistol. Just like Bruce’s pearl handled pistol cuff links that Michael fitted him❣️

[@cindyhowell1836]

Bruce…you should have watched trial before you decided to take the mom’s side. She lied on numerous occasions…she knew they were buying the gun…she approved & it was a Xmas gift from both parents! She is obviously pointing the blame at her husband. Watch the trial & see if you change your opinion of her!

[@Celisar1]

But that‘s exactly what she says here in the video. Point for point. Maybe you didn’t focus on the video?

[@MeNonya]

I disagree with you Bruce. That pitiful excuse for a mother neglected her fucking kid and 4 other kids are dead and a whole school was traumatized. But not for her prioritizing herself over her kid, she would have been more in tune. She also knew enough to tell him not to get caught and to make sure he didn't tell yhe school about his "new Christmas present"

[@kenyonbissett3512]

Permissive parenting at its best, do whatever just don’t bother me. It’s all over the USA like a disease. It’s where spoiled, entitled meet neglect. It’s why they cuss out teachers and throw furniture in classrooms regardless of how it might hurt others.

[@josie4401]

that's the issue, though. being a shitty parent should not translate to criminal negligence. i think the dad buying him the gun knowing he has mental health issues is more in line with criminal negligence.

[@rubiirae]

@@josie4401 both parents are aware of the gun and should've done their due diligence in securing it so ethan wouldn't have access to it. but instead, they left in a safe without a probably passcode, they might as well leave it on the dining table...

[@marinothegreatsan]

Just lawyer boing lawyer.

[@advena996]

​@@josie4401that's the thing. I think this whole thing speaks to the fact that people having trouble comprehending a teen doing something like this, and want somebody to blame.

[@annajosullivan]

How are the parents not responsible when they bought a minor a gun and laughed at him when he asked for help? *Edit okay so far I understand what you’re saying but why did she and her husband run and hide? That’s why she’s been in jail this entire time, because they consider her flight risk. BTW, the mother of the 6 year old who shot his teacher was tried and convicted for letting him have access to a gun.

[@LD86]

And the mom also texted to her son “lol I am not mad at you, you have to learn not to get caught.” When her son was caught in class with his phone searching for ammunition.

[@joeyh9116]

Stop being caught up in the semantics. It’s not like he had unfettered access to the gun. The “gift” doesn’t change the facts of the case.

[@SilverDraco]

​@@joeyh9116actually, he did have unfettered access to the gun. It was never locked up.

[@HammerStudioGames]

​@@SilverDraco Lmao, your immediate correction was golden

[@malabuha]

People do that to each other every day, at school, at work, in the comment section. It's really bad, but...

[@C3LaLa]

I feel like this goes beyond “failure to act”, they bought him a gun after he told them he was hallucinating & needed mental help. That is negligent parenting. They put the gun in the hands of someone struggling mentally. They didn’t get him any mental help, when there are statements from the mom that her son was troubled & weird. She knew he was struggling with depression - he lost his friend, his grandmom, virtual school isolation, she knew these issues. Instead of help, her priorities were elsewhere. It seems like they couldn’t be bothered when it came to their son. The school didn’t know he was hallucinating, that he was asking for mental help & that they bought him a gun 4 days ago. If they had just told the school “hey that gun drawing looks like the gun we just bought him” or “hey, we did just buy him a gun” then things might be different.

[@LD86]

She not only knew he was struggling….she laughed at him when he told her he wanted help.

[@radiantmessenger3369]

​@@LD86the father told the mother that he gave their son drugs too

[@lisalarsen2384]

Legally speaking is different then mentally speaking

[@zangmo]

Agreed!

[@weepinglilies]

Thank you, and she also had a hunch he would do something, that’s why as soon as she heard there is an incident with a pew pew, she freaked out and texted him to not do it!

[@kathiewool4292]

This lawyer shot past the fact that they could have taken him home instead of letting him choose school.

[@chipsdad5861]

The prosecution is trying to show that the parent were focused affairs and horses and other distractions when they should have been caring for their child. 4 children paid the price.

[@etougaming2176]

20 more couldve died if something changed. You dont know how he would have reacted. assuming is a stupid game to play when law is involved.

[@PhatsyKline]

These parents failed their kid and as a result, people died. It's not like just one red flag was missed.

[@TravisDoesGames]

Multiple red flags can be missed yet we don’t blame battered women for being with abusive men

[@PhatsyKline]

@@TravisDoesGames battered women don't buy their abusers weapons.

[@TravisDoesGames]

@@PhatsyKline in spirit they do

[@PhatsyKline]

@@TravisDoesGames how so?

[@TravisDoesGames]

@@PhatsyKline it’s definitely not exactly the same and it’s definitely not exactly comparable but when you allow someone to do things to you that you’re uncomfortable with you’re giving them weapons. like the ability to coerce someone is similar to having a weapon on them.

[@fabulouswoman5068]

This is the first time I have disagreed with our beloved Bruce. The parents all but abandoned their child When he was crying out for help. They are responsible for that and the outcome of their neglect

[@harleyadams4551]

Exactly my thoughts. I have always agreed with Bruce. The kid never really stood a chance in life, being blessed with such parents. They had first hand knowledge of his mental issues, yet pursued him a gun no matter. Gun owners need to be held accountable for their guns. With the various safety locks available.

[@phoenixmerridian9119]

I've seen him, Dr, Grande, and other solo talking heads seem to not understand that this is the ONLY WAY we are going to get change when it comes to minors and guns and killing sprees. Just because someone is a parent doesnt give them a free pass to aide and abet and enable their terrorist little monsters. She even told him when he tried to buy ammo at school "LOL DONT GET CAUGHT" Bruse is saying this is OKAY parenting

[@juliaroy1382]

You guys are absolutely insane letting this homicidal antisocial adult get away with murder because you want to push an agenda. Psychologist stated he was not mentally ill. Are you smarter than a licensed professional?

[@ZenDreaming60]

@@phoenixmerridian9119I love your second paragraph!! Spot on 👍🏼😘

[@owonapikins]

Completely agree, this CHILD should not have ever had access to a firearm and the parents are responsible

[@jodieanndesigns832]

As a parent in Oakland County and neighbboring school district. This entire case is disturbing. The parents were negligent and failed their child who clearly needed help. The school however, upon seeing disturbing and threatening images on paper, should have enacted a zero tolerance and removed him immediately. In this case, I disagree with Bruce, parents did not do everything they could to help their son and now many lives are destroyed in the wake of this tragedy.

[@othiq1077]

I live in Wayne County and totally agree with you. I don't get why anyone would believe anything this "mom" said due to her lying from the get go. She so failed her kid and in that failing the community. Dad sucked to but mom seemed to be worse.

[@kerwalker4246]

Still waiting for the CLR “Here’s the thing” on the pouch of the Step Ones😂

[@joanjava1]

Or “nestled goods”

[@sharonwilson8208]

😂

[@jay-el-bee]

This might be the only channel I don't mind listening to adds from. The misadventures of mischevious basement grandma are great, too. 😂

[@Pugetwitch]

@@joanjava1 polished gems

[@Pugetwitch]

@@jay-el-bee don't miss out on YT'er Philion, his promos are always tucked within his vids ( the older ones where he makes fun of fake Fitness influencers on Instagram are always good😅) in the most hilarious ways. His content overall is pretty good, some of the newer videos have somewhat of a grimmer tone, but overall I appreciate his channels progression. His deadpan delivery is great!

[@delightful640]

Even babysitters, childcare workers or school teachers are held to a higher standard of care than parents. This case has unprecedented proof that she ignored her child's plea for help. . Not just once but over and over again. Her horses got more care and attention.

[@samuelhong4272]

What unprecedented proof? Point it out. Was the affair proof? Proof of what?

[@WickedWitchOfOz1]

​@@samuelhong4272proof she was spending more time focused on what she wanted than what her son needed. The affair coming in was to attack her character and to show she can't be trusted when she lies to her family about where she is and what she's doing. The prosecution was basically saying to the jury "don't believe a word she says, she's a liar" when they brought it in. Same as the text to her husband saying "I'm gonna get drunk and ride my horse" coming in. It was to attack her character and paint an ugly picture of her and what makes that text even uglier is the fact her son was asking her to respond to his texts while she was, in her own words, drunk and riding her horse.

[@curiositykilledkat1]

Yes but is it proper for a court to find that the reasonably foreseeable consequence of her unequivocally poor parenting, chaotic marriage, substance abuse plus the presence of a gun in the house etc was that he would kill several other students at his school in cold blood like that? I don’t think so, maybe with hindsight we can all see how this crime came to be, but it is not hindsight she is being judged on, it is foresight & neither the school nor the parents communicated effectively with each other & so both were missing important information, the school didn’t see what was about to happen either & he was in their care at the time, but even if everyone had all the information I think it wouldn’t have been fair to say it was reasonably foreseeable he was going to kill people. Maybe it would have been reasonable to have a suspicion that he might pose a risk to himself or others & maybe that would have led to searching of his bag but reasonably foreseeable he was going to kill people & the parents but not the school staff were reckless to the extent they are responsible for his crime in part? I don’t think so.

[@samuelhong4272]

​@@WickedWitchOfOz1 What you're describing is a character assassination. It’s not permissible in trials. What does her affair have to do with this trial? Matter of fact, what does her character have to do with this trial? She's not on trial for being a bad person or having an affair. It just isn't relevant. It just isn't. "more prejudicial than probative" applies here I think.

[@samuelhong4272]

@@curiositykilledkat1 real. This wouldn’t be an issue if her son wasn’t a psycho.

[@tonysoprano1454]

Can you make a follow up video on the guilty verdict?

[@sandid1826]

As a blanket statement parents are not always responsible for these kinds of actions their childrens commit. In this case there were SO MANY points where parental intervention would have stopped this. To me the criminal intent is the fact they didn't give a shit and said fuck it towards their own kids mental state.

[@eleanoraquitaine2966]

Buying him the gun? Teaching him how to use it? Ignoring his desperate cries for help? And zero culpability?

[@LD86]

That’s the questions the jury will have to answer.

[@jmorrisey79]

The problem is this... far too many parents either do not take mental health problems seriously or they live in a state of denial that their children could possibly be dealing with such a thing. For a myriad of reasons.. one major one being that they feel it reflects poorly on them as a parent.

[@phoebebeach1194]

The kid was down, they live in a pro-gun hunting area. Looked like the only thing he enjoyed was going to the shooting range. I think it’s hard to blame her saying she caused the shooting.

[@tishwitch]

They owned guns for yearsssss and had 3 of them. How would they know buying #3, all unlocked (legally) would be the tipping point?

[@tishwitch]

​@@jmorrisey79except they didn't show any evidence of mental illness nor has Ethan been diagnosed with a mental illness. Not even today. I'm not saying she's a great mom... she isn't. But she also wasn't a psychic.

[@marlenen6130]

Bruce if people can hold a bartender responsible for involuntary manslaughter for over serving someone, or a surviving friend responsible for involuntary manslaughter for taking tainted drugs-then I think, in this case, it’s fair to hold the parents accountable for their behavior. I’m surprised they didn’t have an actual heavy duty safe when they have 3 guns in the house. The 9 mm gun safe lock was never set. I wouldn’t let an angry teen drive off in their car because it’s my responsibility to keep them and the public safe-as best as I can. Had they had a ligit gun safe, where the teen didn’t have the code (a minimum of parental control) then this teen wouldn’t have shot up the school. She didn’t get health insurance or do counseling on him because that would divert money from her horse, hotel rooms and swinger parties. I’m curious why the prosecutor didn’t bring up the doses and types of controlled substances in the house? How did she secure them? It may have been nice to have gotten a blood toxicology test on her at arrest, as well as, a hair toxicology test. I’d like to know if she was also using illicit drugs. I really don’t understand why a teenage boy was ever sleeping in his parents bed? None of that makes sense at all. She actually over sells how busy she was with her son. 1. She brings up his work but he had already not been working at the time of the shooting. 2. She mentions all the bowling stuff, but he was not currently on a bowling league. 3. The boy made that video on the patio, which was right behind the parents bedroom, on the night that she states she took his phone away-so she lies several times. She admits that they (as a family) talked about getting that gun, but says she didn’t know it was going to be that day. She brags about getting him his prized gun, she knew her kid was doing a lot of research about what gun to get. On one hand she says there were financial pressures because her husband lost his job, but they spend a lot of money on discretionary things-but didn’t buy a ligit gun safe. Those visits to the gun range were not cheap at all. Bullets for those guns isn’t even cheap anymore.

[@kjh6903]

I’m thinking about the Murdaugh case . Not the financial crimes just the boat accident that killed Mallory Beach . Paul was 19 at the time of the accident. Alec was sued by the Beach family because he was driving his dad’s boat . The connivence store that sold him the beer was sued . The bar that sold him 2 shots was sued . Paul was underage for drinking but legally an adult . They were suing Alex for all of this before he killed Paul and Maggie . So this was definitely a case where a parent was sued not jailed but sued for what his adult son did . Now he never had to worry about the boat case because of all the other stuff he ending up doing . I have no sympathy for AM at all just to be clear . And we’re talking being sued vs being put in prison . But in some cases yes parents can be held accountable for what their kids do .

[@kazbee6978]

You are going to be disappointed when the verdict comes in……😬

[@lizadoesray]

Well stated

[@brittneyzarwel6242]

​@@kjh6903yes and this case would be better suited for civil purposes, not criminal. The preponderance of evidence is lower than reasonable doubt. Many ppl who believe she was LIABLE civilly do not believe she should be convicted criminally. I could vote she was liable in a civil suit but not guilty in a criminal case. Just bc criminally I don't believe it was foreseeable. Not with the evidence presented at the trial.

[@bbe3034]

Alex Murdaugh shot and killed his wife, Maggie and his son Paul! He’s definitely guilty!!

[@sunshineinarizona1726]

I wouldn't allow my son to have a gun. When he turned 18, he started buying them himself. I can't understand how prosecutors can prosecute the shooter as an adult and, at the same time, prosecute the parents for being negligent parents of a minor.

[@CherrrrBear]

That’s where I have a hard time too!!! You say he’s an adult but then now treating him like he was a minor which is it?

[@BlackStump172]

Hypocritical , and he is not an adult .

[@AngelGonzalez-pd4cn]

But if the same kid was having sex with a teacher instead of shooting people then everyone would call him a "child"

[@MySqueezingArm]

If you drink at 19, you're both a minor and an adult. I see this very similarly.

[@ghostpuppolter3207]

​​@@MySqueezingArmat 19 you're not a minor though in any state, not being of legal age to drink doesn't make you a minor. In most states you're considered an adult at 18 years old.

[@Fallocaust]

Gotta say, I am SO happy to see the comment section disagreeing with Bruce's take. Bruce is awesome but I have to respectfully disagree with him here too. This goes so extremely further than being prosecuted for bad parenting.

[@scottbaxendale323]

These parents are completely liable. Normally I agree with you on everything, but not here.

[@Searwitch]

great argument

[@scottbaxendale323]

@jessie6600 She just was convicted on manslaughter charges just as she should have been for her completely negligent parenting. Her actions directly led to the unnecessary deaths of innocent kids. Trump is criminally responsible for Ashley Babbitt’s murder too, in much the same way. She was criminally negligent.

[@kjh6903]

Guilty on all counts !! People should watch the pre-sentencing hearing for the shooter where the children who he shot and survived testified . It is awful and heartbreaking. This trial was a very sanitized version of what was happening with the shooter and in that house . It’s horrific !!

[@abebuckingham8198]

@jessie6600 Because he literally drew a picture of his plan on a math test, with a clear picture of *his* gun, and handed it in to his teacher. Drawing your plans is called a blueprint. I think before you send that child back to class you should check to ensure your guns are secured at home. Don't completely ignore him and only check *after* the active shooter situation is announced.

[@deannamarie8389]

I agree, I usually agree with Bruce, but not on this case. This school shooting happened very near my childrens' school. These parents completely failed the son.

[@wendyhutchens9914]

What about when kids get a hold of an unsecured gun and accidently kill someone or themselves with it? Aren't the parents or owners of the gun held criminally responsible?

[@LD86]

That’s what’s happening with the parents of a six year old who got ahold of their gun and shot his teacher with it. It wasn’t accidental though.

[@a.g.4981]

@@LD86she wasn’t charged as though she actually shot the gun. she was charged for using marijuana while having a gun and lying on the application

[@LD86]

@@a.g.4981 What? lol that’s not what I am taking about.

[@hopefulhuman]

6yr old to 15 yr old is different.

[@Algebruh2407]

They can, but it depends on the circumstances surrounding it. If you leave a loaded gun within reach of a small child and the kid ends up shooting someone in a way that is significantly different to what a normal person would do, then you can be charged with criminal negligence. However, the child couldn't of gotten it due to an accident (such as the gun fell off a high shelf or you dropped it and the kid got to it first) or mistake (like keeping it under the bed when the child isn't usually allowed to go into your room), you would have to be aware of the risks that would come with it, and you must not of acted with reasonable care.

[@lornaginetteharrison7168]

She was only in custody for the last two years because of her own actions: she fled! She went on the run with her husband. She was a clear flight risk.

[@julieo4580]

Wrong. They were not fleeing. They already showed evidence that was not true.

[@ewn0404]

Karen set them up, they were talking to the Crumbleys’ attorneys but Karen intentionally made it a Manchin to prevent them from getting bail.

[@vullinghs2009]

As I understand, she was afraid of reactions by people. So how call this "flight-risk" ?

[@traceymitchell6619]

@@vullinghs2009 Withdrew thousands, even emptying their son's bank account and you don't think she's a flight risk? Why withdraw the money, did her lawyer want cash in hand? They did a runner.

[@jacuzzibusguy]

@@traceymitchell6619testimony in the case revealed that the parents were advised they were likely to face civil liability and their bank accounts may get frozen, so it was suggested to pull out their meager savings before that happened. It was only about $7k, not the kind of money one would need to go on the run.

[@Jlynnjoneski]

They're not being tried for actions of their Son. They're being tried for their part in it..their gross negligence.

[@KatlynHaydon]

I was psychiatrically hospitalized several times as a child (I’m bipolar but we didn’t know why I was having such a hard time back then.) I had also been raised with hunter parents and had multiple guns of my own. Even though I never showed an ounce of violent behavior, I was just suicidal, as soon as I presented with mental health issues my dad removed every gun from the house. I do think his parents are at least a bit liable. Common sense comes into play no matter how hard in the paint you go for guns. I have my own guns now as an adult, but my husband would remove them all if I showed an ounce of psychiatric concern. Idk. This is bad judgement. Whether it’s criminal I guess is up in the air.

[@StillKeepOnLosing]

Common sense.... Common sense is the school should have suspending the kid for his actions prior to the incident... Not everyone has common sense...

[@Nurturing2]

@@StillKeepOnLosingSadly, common sense isn’t common. 💔

[@catw461]

My experience is very similar to yours. Non-violent (but suicidal) bipolar that was undiagnosed as a child, also with guns in the home. Other than the guns, what my parents did very differently than these parents is they saw I was in distress, believed me when I said I wasn't ok, and helped me get treatment asap. I was hospitalized, had therapist and meds, and they cared and believed me every step of the way. These parents said no when their teen asked for therapy. He was distressed by (what I'll call) hallucinations, which were written off as him playing a weird joke. I had horrifying hallucinations as a child. My mom thought it was a combination of an overactive imagination and scary TV shows. But it didn't matter that she didn't believe I was actually seeing it. She got me help because my distress was real. These parents didn't provide reasonable care to their son.

[@2and26]

@@StillKeepOnLosingIf memory serves me well, the school counselor mentioned the reason for the call to EC’s parents was due to his suicidal ideation as depicted from his drawings on his math assignment, not a discipline issue. Taking that into consideration, would there be grounds to suspend? I’m not defending the school, but it appears it may have had its hands tied taking the suspension route. Crying shame no one cared (i.e., his parents) to either search his belongings or take him home/hospital as a normal, concerned, loving parent would do.

[@Cameron_F]

@@2and26 if the school thinks a child is actively suicidal, they certainly didn't do much about it. Definitely a really hard position for the educational staff. But the school had full right to search his backpack and locker, if they truly thought he was suicidal, it is very strange that did not happen.

[@rationallyruby]

The biggest lesson in all of this is talk to your kids… Know what’s going on. If you develop a strong relationship with them shit like this is way less likely to happen.

[@phoenixmerridian9119]

people dont realize as a minor, the child has no right to privacy. Parents *need* to be checking their kids rooms, journals, and internet history/usage. But they refuse and claim innocent ignorance. No one wants to admit it because they love being self absorbed and letting ipads raise their children for cheap, but unfetter access to the internet and social media for a minor is NEGLECT

[@gw3485.]

You must not know how mental illness works. Just talking. You assume parents don't try to talk to their kids? Explain yourself

[@gw3485.]

​@phoenixmerridian9119 only females keep journals. At what point would an at risk youth give a signal to their parents? The parkland shooter parents didn't know.

[@Punishment_for_Decadence]

​@@gw3485. Saying "only females keep journals" is some ignorant shit

[@samuelhong4272]

⁠@@phoenixmerridian9119cool found the invasive parent that doesn’t respect privacy. You are wrong and any child psychologist would disagree with you. It’s easy to look in hindsight and point out every little detail. Stop yapping

[@chrisj1455]

I’m so glad the jury found this woman guilty! We need tougher laws that hold parents accountable for their actions. A gun doesn’t belong in the hands of a child, especially, when he’s mentally ill. Domestic terrorism should never be tolerated in our country!

[@Quasiguambo]

Exactly. People need examples to learn from apparently.

[@heatherstegenga]

I believe this sets a terrible precedent. If my teen leaves the house and does something dumb, how am I criminally responsible? If my teen had access to a gun because we go shooting at the range and hunting, if he is sad or acting weird -- I try to talk to him about it, let him know I'm here, do we need to get help or is it typical teen stuff. Sounds like he hid alot. The school didn't even think he was a danger. Do you have teens? Do you live where people hunt and go shooting? This kid was sick. Mama was very naive and didn't want to see how sick he was. I think her defense attorney was horrible and hope she gets a new trial.

[@gilgamesh3698]

@@heatherstegengasafely store your gun so your kid doesn’t have easy access. A trigger lock is not expensive

[@sarahm8865]

I want you to revisit this after watching her trial. I believe you’re a loving parent. This child was severely neglected, screaming for help and his parents didn’t give a fuck. She deserved this verdict and how!

[@HeatherHolt]

If you buy your kid a case of beer and then they go out get drunk and kill someone in a wreck… wouldn’t that be criminally liable? Are kids able to legally own handguns in that state? Google says “Michigan generally prohibits persons under 18 from possessing firearms with exceptions for adult supervision, target ranges, and hunting.” Edit: also the Supreme Court let the charges stick so there must be some merit to it and it’s not completely frivolous.

[@joisagirlsname]

I think it's the circumstances of the shooting that really pushed it into relevance. The school called her in, she assured them that he didn't have access to any firearms and refused to take him home. An hour later, he shoots up the school. ETA: with the gun she bought him.

[@staceyw.6608]

if it was intended to be locked up by a parent, whether jennifer or husband...technically, the parents had control of the gun, though it was for his use. I researched how young you can be to legally go to the firing range and shoot a gun...and it was as low as 10-13 years of age. That's why this case has some gray areas. certainly, they did not hand him the gun that day nor give him permission to access it whenever he wanted to. But if they bought it for him to use at the firing range, that's not illegal.

[@tanjameijer589]

Kids can't legally drink and drive. Kids can legally go to a shooting range with there parents. The gun was kept in a safe. A shitty safe but a safe. It wasn't supposed to be in Ethans possession without supervision. The parent didn't know he had the gun. If I buy a sixpack and let my kid drink 1. Is okay right? No harm... But if my kid drinks all 6 and gets in a car wreck? I didn't give him the beers... He stole them. This case is a real slippery slope.

[@StillKeepOnLosing]

Did they purposely buy beer for the kid to take to a party? No

[@StillKeepOnLosing]

All this is about was to try and cover up the negligence the school failed to take action on seeing the red flags days leading up to the incident....

[@meaganshea6795]

First time I have ever disagreed with you! I see your side, but just can't get there.

[@yarnpower]

But the point of going through the details of the mom’s life shows that she was lying about spending lots of time with her son claiming that she was a ‘helicopter parent’.

[@R12390]

Bruce please watch and understand the case. They bought their mentally unstable kid a gun. They did not safeguard the weapon, mom knew he was searching for bullets, she told him “ don’t get caught” they were at the school 4 HOURS before he shot up school. He drew a gun and asked for HELP jfc. I hope you do a follow up once you actually know the facts of the case.

[@mitzimcewan9124]

If you watch the son’s trial, testimony is that the parents were, neglectful, verbally and physically abusive. They left him home very young with the dog and ferret as “babysitters”. Not exactly a “ close relationship “ with her son.

[@kjh6903]

Yes !! That’s the problem. People are basing this on the mother’s trial . Anyone who watches the shooters pre-sentencing trial can see the shooter was deeply disturbed and his parents ignored him and failed him . This is not the case in all shootings but in this one the parents are absolutely to blame for not getting their child help and for buying a troubled 15 year old a gun .

[@staceyotten5312]

The jurers were not able to take that into account for the mothers trial. ​@@kjh6903

[@usaroxx8085]

Soooooo

[@6Haunted-Days]

Again ……neglect bad parenting but it’s NOT MANSLAUGHTER for her! I’m seeing a lot of uneducated knee jerk “opinions”. It’s like you people grasp the more analytical logical side to this. 🙄🤡

[@Cannabidragon]

Claiming she was a helicopter mom was a joke, maybe to her horses or her lovers. Seeing the messages from him to his mother tore my heart out!!! I can't imagine ignoring my son when he's going through such a clear mental struggle and just do nothing about it and actually buy him a deadly weapon?!?! Wtf?!?

[@happyfunjenn]

I'm grateful they found her guilty. She IS guilty.

[@theresafox7690]

The parents gave him the gun as a gift. Then mom came to the school after being called there for the creepy note his teacher discovered. When mom gets there to the school, she didn’t check his book bag, knowing he owned a gun. I blame the mother for not being proactive and checking his book bag roughly 30 minutes before he started killing students. I blame the parents.

[@mofrm6-070]

THE DAD*** bought him the gun. He’s mums on trial here….

[@onnabear]

But you don’t blame the school for not checking?? It’s their duty to protect the other children in the school, and they failed. He should have never been allowed back in class after those drawings.

[@mofrm6-070]

@@onnabear if you’d watch the video. You’ll see that the cop admitted to the mother NOT knowing about the drawing..

[@onnabear]

@@mofrm6-070 what do you mean? The school called the mother about the drawing and that was what the meeting on the day of the shooting was for. I guess I’m confused by your comment.

[@mofrm6-070]

@@onnabear @13:00 listen before u talk… idk what papers your talking about but the ones they are using in evidence the mother never seen em

[@shaunoconnell5457]

She was found guilty of all 4 counts. Her lawyer wasn't a public defender. She's had several high profile trials in Michigan including defending Larry Nassar's CP and CSC charges. Read up on her thoughts about those victims and it says enough about her character.

[@susanpitcher5956]

My 96 y/o mother taught high school students her entire life. If one of us had made those drawings on a test, she would have dragged us out of school and had us stay home until she could get an emergency appt with a psychiatrist. Period. She also would have searched our backpack and room. No stone unturned. We would never be allowed back to the same school.

[@lisalarsen2384]

Right but legally speaking this case is nuts

[@carolemayer6467]

Absolutely agree with U!! These parents didn't give a damn about their son or wat he was going to do!!!! Now their A**es R on the line they're throwing each under the bus!!! They now!! give a damn!!

[@RWhite_]

You had me until you mentioned searching rooms/backpacks and expelling the child without hearing back from the psychiatrist(*). Treating a child like a dangerous criminal because of a drawing is not something to be celebrated. Especially since not everyone will have the same reaction to the same drawing. Some might not find anything inherently alarming about the drawing, and at the same time another teacher could find the most innocent drawings to be signs of devil worship. Edit - I seem to have misread or misinterpreted your comment. When I first read it, it sounded like you were talking about what your mother would do from the position of a teacher. Searching rooms/backpacks is significantly less of a problem if being done as a parent, but generally still not a good to treat your child like a dangerous criminal because of a drawing. As stated above, interpretations can vary, and a parent treating their child like they are definitively a danger to kids around them because of an interpretation that might be specific to you is not good parenting.

[@BlackStump172]

@@lisalarsen2384Civilly responsible but not criminally responsible , in this case . Grandma would have brought him up well and bought him Step One indies .

[@zangmo]

Amen!