More HORRIFYING Creatures Of The Finnish Underworld! Tavern Lore- Clan Lore

When we last spoke of Tuonela and its inhabitants there were a few we did not include from the Court of Tuoni and Tuonetar! So, let us speak more in-depth of Louhi and Loviatar, villains of the Kalevala, and of Surma and Tuonen Tytti guard and ferrywoman of the depths of Finland's demented underworld!
Much Thanks to Tero Porthan for providing the art for this video, his work is incredible do go a check it out!
www.artstation.com/teroporthan
www.deviantart.com/teroporthan
teroporthan...
I Upload videos 3 to 5 times weekly on lore, gaming, stories, books, myth, history, and pop culture all as they relate to mythology and modern interpretations of ancient gods, legends, myths, heroes, and traditions from Ireland, Norway, and all of Scandinavia and Europe. Ranging from the Vikings to the Celtic, Gaelic, and Manx people, all the ancient tribes and clans of these people and cultures. As well as mythologies from all over the world.
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#Finland #FinnishMyth #Finnish #Kalevala #Louhi #Surma #Pohjola #Mythology #Myth #BlackDragonTavern
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[@MasterZagato]

There is Finnish idiom about Surma. Mennä surman suuhun = Going into Surma's mouth. Which basically means, "going into one's death"

[@AnnaBridgland]

Finnish folklore is so interesting, it's really different to neighbouring countries too, which makes it super unique!

[@duhni4551]

Not so entirely. You find lots of same myths in Baltics and some parts of Russia. I guess because there are lots of Finno-Ugric tribes in these areas and further we go in history, the more there are fusion between Finnish and Baltic myths and Gods. For example Ukko / Perkele originated in Baltic countries and was God of Thunder. In Finnish mythology it became God of many things until it became supreme God like Zeus, yet still living in sky. To make it more confusing, depending on the region of Finland the same Gods had very different meaning and powers, thus in time mythology around the same Gods could be very different. And to make it even more confusing, there has been many religions in Finland which all melt together differently in different regions. You get good introduction to Finnish myths and religions if you read literature of Uno Harva

[@duhni4551]

I should mention that Kalevala is only small scratch of Finnish mythology from only one region of Finland. It was written in purpose of raising national sense and thus made in haste (independence movement), it also suffered from bad translating and author also used his own imagination to fill the inevitable gaps, also he made it such that it didn't upset Church too much. Non the less it is great Epic but has quite little to do with actual Finnish mythology at large, you could describe it to be a tip of the iceberg and as product of its time, answering political necessities.

[@jefftaylor529]

In seeking to instill enthusiasm for our ancestral culture, I've found it overshadowed by Viking/ Old Norse culture. As intriguing as all that may be, it is nice to be able to dive in to our own. I'm half-Finnish and American.

[@duhni4551]

@@jefftaylor529 Finnish mythology is not that well known, we are small unknown country in remote part of the world with small population =) But the mythology is tens of thousands of years old and huge AF, you can spend years reading it and still keep learning new stuff =D Well, i can't really say it is Finnish mythology at that point specifically but Finno- Ugric mythology. There are no such thing as a half Finn, you have the blood then Finn you are, no matter where you live or how far the relation is from. =) This is how we like to see it in here, we are all one big family and there for each others if need be, it doesn't matter did you born here or did your grand parents or their grand parents born here, you are one of us. Oh, if you want to learn Finnish mythology, you might want to introduce your self to Finnish, Baltic and Uralic mythologies. The roots are in Uralic myths and beliefs and there are still Uralic and Finno-Ugric tribes living traditionally keeping their beliefs alive.

[@jefftaylor529]

@@duhni4551 kippis!!

[@riissanen93]

Much appreciated man. Finnish mythology and paganism is not really tought in schools here exept maybe Kalevala. Even tho, I'm a Christian, I find finnish paganism (and paganism in general) really interesting. I feel like really learning about it we can learn about our ancestors way of thinking. Also these stories are just really fun. So thank you for these videos that are about finnish mythology. It really does mean alot. PS: The pronunciation is fine, dont sweat it.

[@BlackDragonTavern]

That is really kind and genuinely encouraging, thank you for this and I am so glad I could entertain and share my families culture of storytelling with you

[@riissanen93]

@@BlackDragonTavern If you want to chat about finns and our mythology, I would be happy about it. Discord, skype, anything realy. I'm also really interested in celtic mythology. If you dont have any hub for your follovers then please, if this is in your interest then make that hub to be.

[@paivyt9777]

Not trying to be rude but Kalevala isn't about Finnish mythology. It's a nationalistic book and most of the poems aren't even Finnish. Some are even made up by Lönnrot. If you're interested in Finnish paganism maybe don't use any Kalevala sources since it really doesn't represent Finnish paganism.

[@Tinonen]

As a Finn I find your pronunciation impressive. Your voice and appearance are quite charismatic and also manly, you are suited for telling the dark lore of Finnish Gods and damned beings. I sincerely thank your intriguing towards old beliefs.

[@theotherkat722]

I'm so happy I found this channeI! As an American with Finnish roots, I find these kind of videos fascinating! Thank you for sharing these characters and stories with your audience!

[@BlackDragonTavern]

It is my privilege and pleasure to do so, thank you for the support 💚💚 I hope to continue to entertain and enthrall💚

[@jannehietavirta9744]

@@BlackDragonTavern you pronounce everything wrong though I am not angry as our language is impossible

[@jannehietavirta9744]

Do you speak finnish?(I'm not angry if you don't, not even disapointed, only slightly dis-satisfaied)

[@BlackDragonTavern]

I don't speak Finnish, though I am learning fundamentals from a few countrymen. That's not why a mispronounced the names though, my family hands down stories as a part of our Traditions, in Gaelige this is how the names are said. When I made the video I didn't think anyone but a couple dozen of my regular viewers would be interested, so I didn't even think to research the Finnish pronunciation. I have, of course, remedied that💚🙏😅

[@jefftaylor529]

@@BlackDragonTavern my mom even struggles with pronunciation, and she's 2nd generation straight from a Finnish homestead in Harrison Maine.

[@larrywave]

Just have to say that many parts of kalevala were collected from karelia and were translated to finnish as they were recorded from karelian. Kalevala was first time translated back to karelian in 2009

[@Aurinkohirvi]

Since there were many oral tradition keepers and huge amount of song-poems, about 100 000 were recorded, it's quite natural that things get confusing. And even more so, as they only started to record the tradition when it was dying, living its last breath, almost disappeared. For example smith Ilmarinen is a human version (avatar) of the prime sky god (Ukko/Perkele). Same way Louhi is probably a human version of Loviatar. That's why the stories get intertwined.

[@BlackDragonTavern]

That's a very interesting take. I won't pretend that I understand the Finnish culture around these stories explicitly, but I do my best to empathize. As I mentioned in another response to you, these stories have been taught in my family for nearly a hundred generations, our ancient ancestors travelled much to gather stories and record them both in our Traditions and in our skin(we tattoo histories and stories on our backs). So I'm certain they vary from what is generally understood or even spread. My entire channel is based around, and was found to, tell the stories as my family knows them. I do try to be fairly transparent about that.

[@laurijelonen6762]

@@BlackDragonTavern not trying to shit on you or anything BUT if you are so good story teller then could you please tell me a story of the longest recorded family lineage. The Confucius genealogical line that is 86 generations old and then tell me a another story that involves the explanation why your line of generations isn't holding the record if you guys are up to almost 100 🤔

[@BlackDragonTavern]

A lot of our records and family artifacts were lost in WWII and in the 17-1800's. Between the Catholic and Protestant churches and the British empire a lot has been done to suppress the history and traditions of just the general Irish people, our Traditions and people have always been outside the norm, and through out most of recorded histories have been considered heretical. Our family did make up some of the Seanchai, but that's the most public that we've ever been. All the children in our family are raised to uphold these traditions, and our eldest sons carry "family trees" on their backs. These trees record our lives and the stories we collect while alive, as well as any notable societal events while we are alive. Our traditions are very private, and our family community is highly structured. I left home at 14, to come to the US for schooling, and in my twenties I realized how disconnected people are from their roots. So, my grandfather isn't thrilled that I share our Traditions in such a public forum, but I am portraying them as I was taught them, so I allowed. But yeah, no one in my family is happy about it 😅

[@BlackDragonTavern]

Not these specific stories, but there are some Finnic stories that go back pretty far. And it's not a religion, our family has collected stories and for a very long time. Recording events and retelling of events is how we are all raised and how our family has existed for a very long time. It's just the culture of our Clan.

[@BlackDragonTavern]

Technically, we're not supposed to flaunt our trees, nor are we supposed to wear our hair down, but I would be happy to make a video going a little more in depth, I've done a few on tiktok. I do not have my tree yet, trees get passed down after our fathers die. My father passed two years ago, but I haven't had money to get mine done, and I can't go home to get it done(long story short, I left home to show I could be independent from my grandfather, going home would be an admission of failure). But I hope to have it done by the end of this year👆👆

[@chryssalidbait8765]

I myself was always under the assumption that Tuonen Tytti was indeed a daughter of Tuoni, because the given name Tytti is, as far as I am aware, derived from the word 'tyttö', which means girl. Making he name 'Girl of Tuoni'.

[@SergeyPRKL]

Tuonen tyttö can mean also the girl of river Tuoni, wich refers tho her profession, she rowed the ferry that transported those who had recently died from the land of the living to the underworld. Basically same profession that Charon had :) Except Tytti did take living passengers too. Many has gone to the underworld, but only few she has ferried back.

[@NoMuchies4You]

A native finn here! I'm so happy that I came across your channel because I can't even put into words how much I've learned from your videos. I have also started looking into things myself and learning more since not all this is taught in our schools either. I love history and all mythology, and after finding your channel I've spent countless evenings/nights just listening with eager ears. Keep up the good work man, I hope to see more of you soon! Ps. Don't worry about the pronunciation, finnish is a tough language. You're doing great!

[@ThisTrainIsLost]

Glad to hear that you have a language coach, though I might drop in a word or two occasionally. One point: if you should ever have the opportunity and desire to spend a year up here in Finland, you may learn why the Finnish tales and more (for example, hymns) are so grim.

[@BlackDragonTavern]

I did spend one winter in Finland with my grandfather, it was beautiful but most certainly a very cold and harsh climate! I would of course like to visit again. I have travelled much in my life, and I am fortunate, that my grandfather showed me that most places have a muted beauty to them that certainly has to be found

[@PoPcheesemo]

I love your channel, it's a wonderful tavern to come and give one some rest and entertainment. But I couldn't find this bit info to be shared with you yet. The kalevala was compiled by Elias Lönnrot, an important figure for Finnish literature and history. He traveled all across Finland on foot with a stick and some stationary. Elias would go from town to town and look for the the poet elders. They were a duet of poets who would sit across from each other reciting the entire story as a poem, switching between each line (or possibly stanza). Probably quite comparable to the Seanchai of old. So I find it enthralling to hear our stories that survived centuries by word of mouth to be told by another source of passing on stories through family and tradition. Also, I would love to hear all the different Earth/world origin stories your family possesses, and how they correlate. My favorite (yes, i'm biased) is the one from kalevala with the mallard.

[@maxontheplane6371]

You, good Sir, have earned a new subscriber.

[@BlackDragonTavern]

Welcome to the Tavern 😁 I do so hope you'll find yourself at home my friend

[@kristiinahonkaheimo2797]

I feel called out and angry after these 2 videos about Finnish mythology. So little was taught about these subjects at school, that I am just fuming. Thank you for these awesome videos, I got more ideas and material for rpg's now and will dig into these subjects even more...

[@groundsforkilling]

Might incorporate some of these into a Nightbane campaign I'm running. As for learning about this pantheon after living in Canada most of my life only has me more curious about my home land.

[@r.tuohimaa504]

We know more about ancient Greece mythology than our own. 😿

[@groundsforkilling]

@@r.tuohimaa504 It kinda hurts.

[@Chokwik]

i never thought of this before, but now thinking about how Louhi's daughters were the go-to option for Kalevala characters.. It kind of gives the image of Louhi being not something to be despised of, or being anything terrible at that moment. thank you for sharing., i subscribed, because stories that have survived orally are rare and i think even here we don't really have continuing carriers of the story lineage.. or if there are, they are so deep in keeping their silence that i doubt if the stories will ever surface to wider public

[@ThisTrainIsLost]

Love your uploads! Just one thing: Finnish words, names included, always have the primary stress on the first syllable, unlike English, which mostly places that stress on the second syllable, which is why I have had my name mispronounced for well over 60 years.

[@BlackDragonTavern]

Interesting, so your name would have a Hard V at it's front with the e as a softer sound?

[@ThisTrainIsLost]

@@BlackDragonTavern I really should put together a basic letter pronunciation primer for you but, for now, just a few points (and pardon me if this goes on for a while). First an anecdote that compares English and Finnish: English is a language with relatively few rules but a thousand exceptions, while Finnish is a language with a thousand rules and virtually no exceptions. As the two tongues have nothing in common, an English speaker has a good deal of memory work to do when learning Finnish. - There are no silent letters in Finnish; all letters are pronounced. - The pronunciation of letters, and we mean the vowels, never change. - Finnish vowels can be described as being what in English are called their “short” forms. For example, the letter “i” in Finnish is “i” as in “lit” and not as in “light.” In an English pronunciation guide the vowels would have that wee “u” shape on top of them and not the horizontal line. - Since all letters are pronounced, adjacent vowels form diphthongs. For example, to show a Finn how to pronounce the English “out,” you would spell it as “aut.” - If you have a doubled consonant in a word, it is a syllabic break (since all letters are pronounced). For example, in “tt,” the first “t” is the end of a syllable while its neighbour is the start of the next syllable. - Finnish has two vowels English does not, “ä” and “ö.” (They have umlauts.) The Ä is like the “a” in “apple” while the Ö sounds like the “o” in “work.” - I’ve already mentioned the syllabic stress rule and, since Finnish has vast numbers of compound words, learning to identify syllables is one of the challenges of learning the language. - Fortunately nearly all of the consonants sound the same in both Eng. and Finn but the one exception is the J, which is soft. The J sounds like the Y in “yellow” and not like the hard J in “Jack.” - That’s enough (or too much!) for now. When it comes to apps I’m only sure of what can be found in Apple’s App Store but there is an app for learning Finnish. I don’t know why it’s there but there it is. And it’s free! I hope that this monograph has something in it that you find useful or at the very least, entertaining. N.B.: I’ve come to learn that merely being fluent in a language does not make of one a good teacher of same. That’s an entirely different skill set. Still, I’m more than happy to assist to the best of my ability should you have questions. Or comments and criticisms for that matter. Blessèd be.

[@larrywave]

@@ThisTrainIsLost just to add Ä would be similar to A in cat

[@ThisTrainIsLost]

@@larrywave Or just plain “at.” The one I didn’t mention, because I’m not a speech therapist nor a dialect coach, is the Finnish pronunciation of “Y.” I say go for it if you can find a straightforward explanation. I know that a speech therapist would get into the shape of the mouth, tongue placement, breath control and so on (I used to be married to one). But that takes personal contact, which is tricky over the internet. And Covid has now ruled out personal contact. Thanks for getting involved! Good luck!

[@larrywave]

@@ThisTrainIsLost you gave me quite a challenge 🤔i just had to throw the cat as apple and at arent always pronounced with Ä in american/autralian dialects but with A Now i go hide in my hole to think pronunciation rules for Y

[@Son-of-Tyr]

Love the tapestry on your wall, bud.

[@BlackDragonTavern]

Thank you 😊

[@juhoqqeli]

Great video again, made me giggle everytime you said tytti because you said it as tutti which means pacifier. Finnish is hard language so I will let that pass🤣

[@DrumsAndGadgets]

Surma in 2:18 I just realised that where a Finnish expression "joutua surman suuhun" came from! Direct translation is "to get into Surma´s mouth"; to be killed/to die if doing something dangerous. Makes all sense now; Surma will eat you and you die. I have not thought it that way earlier. Thanks!

[@BlackDragonTavern]

This was one of my favorite revaltions from this video. I didn't know about this until the kind folk of Finland came in droves to tell me😅

[@absentiambient]

Love you man! The way you make your videos 100% correct as a textbook (i know my Kalevala too), and at the same time managing to make everything entertaining & fun is a rare talent.

[@Aurinkohirvi]

He was far from correct in the 1st video. See the comments there. kzbin.info/www/bejne/kIfLYXmblrKkj7M

[@BlackDragonTavern]

Thank you very much my friend 💚 I appreciate it. I did have a bit of a bumpy start with pronunciation in the first video, apparently my Gaelige upbringing did not prepare my tongue for Finland 😅😅 but I always try to learn and improve. These stories are from my family, but I want to do my best to respect their culture of origin in anyway I am able💚 thank you for the support and kindness 💚💚

[@Osmohameds]

I searched your channel for a topic but a did not found. Have you make a vídeo about the history of your family? The more of your videos I watch, more I want to know about your family.

[@raewren]

As always, much appreciated! 💚💚💚💚

[@BlackDragonTavern]

Thanks for bringing the love😁

[@Alexandros.Mograine]

Its funny to think that tolkien drew alot of inspiration from finnish mythology. he loved kalevala.

[@Sandcat]

I would love to see Surma! I mean... It probably wouldn't be a good sign to see him. But the image you painted sounds so imposing!

[@Taistelukalkkuna]

Just bring dog treats and squeaky toy. He is a good boy.

[@neponepo8349]

Really looking forward to watching this!

[@BlackDragonTavern]

Thank you for the hype😁👆

[@Sandra-vv4il]

Love your content, can you do a video on light and dark elves?

[@jessicaclark7354]

The Finnish stories are really cool love this stuff

[@ville_1235]

it is honestly outrageous that finns arent thought about these in school. Still in finnish you can say kalman haju, to say that it smells like death, and the verb surmata, to kill or slay. i didnt know the origins of these words before i started to study these things

[@numbdigger9552]

lätkäjätkä ville

[@sternzeichenzeug8845]

Basically my only source of learning finish mythology😅

[@dannahbanana11235]

The Loviatar/Louhi in your split personality version reminds me of the Sheogorath/Jyggalag relationship from the Elder Scrolls. Just a thought. Feel free to correct me if I'm understanding that wrong!

[@MrAatami]

Sai surmansa = Got his/her (own) Surma = ...got killed

[@peterplotts1238]

What interesting people. And what a pity Finns are so shy. But, on the other hand, shyness is part of their charm.

[@BlackDragonTavern]

Agreed across the board👆

[@peterplotts1238]

@@BlackDragonTavern I understand that, in general, Finns get on well with Germans and vice versa. But, fair or not, Finns are firmly in the minority on this question. Is this so, and, why do you think it is the case? My own attitude toward Germans and Germany is very positive. However, I can also understand why others do not feel as I do.

[@flipavila5424]

this is not what you asked but I just found your videos really enjoying them, question can you explain the subject of thanking or not thanking the old gods.

[@ThisTrainIsLost]

I don't know what text you are reading from but here's one tip: unlike English, in which the general rule is to put the primary stress in a multi-syllabic word on the second syllable, in Finnish the firm rule is that the primary stress is always on the first syllable. Therefore that terrible northern land's name is POH-jo-la. And the grand epic is KA-le-va-la. A handy reminder is that, while English has relatively few rules but a thousand exceptions, Finnish has a thousand rules with no exceptions. Finnish is a challenge for the English speaking to learn because the two tongues have absolutely nothing in common.

[@BlackDragonTavern]

Actually, the names as I pronounce them is how my family pronounces them, and the versions of these stories I'm telling are my favorites from those we collect and hand down. It didn't even cross my mind that the pronunciation I knew would be so vastly different from the Finnish articulation 😅 I have been practicing Finnish since these videos though, and I do have a gentleman from Finland helping on the videos that will be coming in the future. I appreciate the tips, I will certainly apply then😁👆

[@BlackDragonTavern]

The pronunciation is from our Gaelige ancestors, so it was certainly from an entirely different rule of language 😅

[@ThisTrainIsLost]

@@BlackDragonTavern All that I wanted to do was to try to be of some meagre help. No criticism was intended, neither overtly nor as subtext. My first language from birth was 1950's colloquial Finnish even though I was born in Toronto. Circumstances beyond my control have kept me living here in Suomi (roughly "bog land" in English) for 20 years so far. I would also be more than happy to answer any questions that you may have, if I should happen to have an answer. You have a fine channel set up and I have yet to see an episode from which I had nothing to learn. You have the best method of teaching: making the learning fun! Blessèd be. May your tavern always be filled to capacity!!

[@BlackDragonTavern]

You're a beast my friend, thank you for the support and I am very glad you're enjoying yourself 💚 that is the whole point, to share and enjoy stories together! I really to appreciate any critique or tips, I may know a little about a lot, but I am always open to learn and be challenged in new and constructive ways. Your comments have been respectful and constructive this far, and I appreciate that🙏👆

[@arminpeet9796]

As Estonian Surma means death and kalme is cemetery.

[@BlackDragonTavern]

That is quite fascinating 😮

[@georgbreckmann584]

Louhi is slandered by Xian interpolations and distortions. She is not evil and has helped some of her priestesses to accomplish amazing healings in our middle earth.

[@michasalamon8315]

2 Questions. 1.What is the difference between Sami and Finish mythology? And 2. Could you possibly make w video with a list if all Finnish gods?

[@Aurinkohirvi]

When they collected Finnish ancient poetry, it wasn't collected from the Sami people. It was callected from Finnish peoples in Finland and Russia and Estonians. The reason Finns and Estonians have different mythology than Sami people, is most probably that Baltic-Finnic (Baltic Sea region Finnic) languages separated from Sami languages earlier than the poem-song tradition was born. Earliest poem-songs date to the Bronze Age, possibly some to Neolithic Stone Age, Wikipedia says it's estimated about 1000 - 500 before Christ was the time when the tradition became sung in the style it was collected and recorded. The poem collection Suomen kansan wanhat runot contains only poems collected from Finns (including Karelians but not Estonians). This is my view, but I think the poem-song tradition spread from Finland into Karelia in the Iron Age, when Hämäläiset tribe (Tavastians) culture from Finland in about 600 - 800 AD expanded in the Baltic Sea region: they also migrated to Karelia and fused with the local Finnic Vepsian peoples, resulting as the Karellian tribe. Ukko (also by names Perkele and Piru) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkele the Finnish prime sky god, is the same thunder and fertility god that was worshipped all over pagan Europe, his origin goes to at least Chalcolithic Era. Deducting from Perkele and Piru names, the religion came to Finland from east, from Balts and or Slavs or possibly by migrating Finnic peoples. With the Saami the main god is Tiermes. It's the same god as the Finnish prime god, but deducting from name he was adobted from Germanic peoples (Celtic Taranis and Germanic Þunraz (Thor)). Sami mythology has more to do with spirits while Finnish mythology also has these poem-songs which include tales of ur-heroes, gods, myths, spells and so on.

[@Aurinkohirvi]

Having said that, I wouldn't wonder if there was same sort of nature spirits known both by Finns and Sami. But I don't know about that.

[@michasalamon8315]

@@Aurinkohirvi So. If I understand it correctly. Sami and Finnish people have the same language origin. But they separaed around Bronze age and have two different mythologies with Sami focusing shamanish. Heh. Neat. I learned something new today. Quess it's the same kinda deal like with Aesirs and Vanirs in norse myths.

[@Aurinkohirvi]

Oh, and one can't make an actual list of all Finnish gods that would be generally agreed upon. There are many that could be gods (it is very difficult where goes the line between a god/goddess and some sort of spirit), and some ur-heroes are also gods, that is they have dual character, in belief system gods but in tales heroes. Some are so new in mythology, that were they ever considered as gods in the pagan age is questionable. You could make some sort of list of most important gods, but that would result into debate as well. For example Agricola's list from gods (from 1551 AD) includes several names that are now better known not to have been gods.

[@Aurinkohirvi]

@@michasalamon8315 It is debated when Baltic-Finnic and Sami languages separated, and even IF they separated. But they certainly were in very close relationship.

[@teyanuputorti7927]

great creatures and real terrifying thanks Castle

[@Son-of-Tyr]

Surma and Kalma...kind of like Garmr and Hel.

[@reme7903]

To this day one word for killing is to "surmata" coming from Surma.

[@BlackDragonTavern]

Something I was not aware of before making this video, but a super cool fact 👆

[@ironjavs1182]

Väinämöinen was not just a wizard/hero (he was those also), but he was one of the creator gods, other were Joukahainen and Ilmarinen and they were sons of Iro the Maiden. They have been here since the beginning.

[@Aurinkohirvi]

I would recommend channel Fairychamber. It's run by a Finnish woman who is into mythologies, mostly Finnish but she knows a LOT about mythologies in all Europe (maybe elsewhere too). Some of her videos are in English in addition to Finnish. About Loviatar (Louhi) she had this idea she was an ancient goddess of shamanism and magic who got later demonized. Only that she supposed this demonization happened in Christian era I disagree. I think it happened when male gods took over pantheons in Eurasia. Stone Age Eurasia had wide spread religion of female gods, a fertility religion, as the Venus figurines en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurine had exaggerated focus on fertility related body parts. This continued in Nordic countries until Bronze Age. In Chalcolith era (just before and early Bronze Age) the male gods, the variations of Eurasian sky & thunder and male fertility god Perkwunos en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkwunos en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkele spread over Eurasia. Replacing in many places the female gods. Even in Mediterranean Europe some female gods that survived in pantheons, are thought more ancient than male gods. In Finland that would place Loviatar against Ukko, Louhi against the ur-heroes and gods of Kalevala.

[@MrMan-iq6bu]

Thanks for the vid. I knew us b back

[@BlackDragonTavern]

My pleasure brother, hopefully I'll be back at full steam this next week😅👆

[@Katharsis540]

Two things: Does your beard change color with the seasons? Second: Have you heard of Joseph Campbell book "The Hero With A Thousand Faces". The TV series "The Power of Myth" by Bill Moyers featuring Joseph Campbell.

[@johnnymichaux9316]

I've been waiting 👆

[@ThisTrainIsLost]

Let me tell you a little story. It's not mythological but it will tell you something about the character of Finns. Once there was a man who became tired of living in his town, surrounded by all of the people living around him so, one day he packed a kit of all that he would need to survive and headed out of his town and into the forest. He trekked for a long time until he had passed all of the signs of civilisation. He kept going deeper into the forest until he found a glade with a wide creek running through it. It was a perfect place for him to live and so he built a house there. He lived there, in his precious solitude, for some years with nature providing him with all of what he required. One day, when he went to the creek for a bucket of water, in the creek he saw a piece of wood that had obviously been cut by a saw. He immediately packed up his kit again, left his house and proceeded to move deeper into the forest.

[@javierivantorres7668]

i love the miniature pic, who is the artist?

[@BlackDragonTavern]

Most of the pictures I just grab from Google. If an artist is associated I usually put it in the description

[@fightingfinn1503]

i have the finnish movie called sampo with English subs which is extremely hard to find online atm i should really upload it on yt sometime

[@Aurinkohirvi]

I wonder where this description of Surma, beast of Tuonela comes from. It doesn't come from Kalevala as far as I know. I tried to look it from the Suomen kansan wanhat runot (the ancient poems of Finnish people) database, but it has too many words "surma." I browsed 200 results of them and none had this Surma beast. Searched poems collected by Elias Lönnrot and word surma, also didn't have Surma beast. In many poems surma is however described as skiing over swamps or walking by lake side, not as a beast. If it skiis, then probably it was understood humanlike.

[@BlackDragonTavern]

My grandfather's Clan has travelled and compiled stories since before the Christian monks, our family tradition is based around preserving and collecting these stories from all over the world. We don't have many from Finland, but of the ones we do have there are several varieties. In some versions, Surma is a man, not dissimilar from the rest of the family of Tuonela, but in my favorite version he is a hound with 1000 teeth and a snake like tail that watches behind and his head watches forward. The stories I share here are the ones approved by my grandfather to share from our families collection. We are of the Norse Gaelige from Ireland.

[@Aurinkohirvi]

@@BlackDragonTavern I see, so there is no written version anywhere, you take it from oral version. Well I hold it absolutely possible that Surma was seen also as a beast. Only I didn't find source for it yesterday when I was looking for it a few hours (including Kalevala and Suomen kansan wanhat runot). That's why I'm asking.

[@varjovirta3085]

@@BlackDragonTavern Surma dog is completely made by lönnrot, it doesn't exists that form in folk poetry at all. You just took this stuff from kalevala.

[@varjovirta3085]

he took that stuff either from new or old kalevala.

[@varjovirta3085]

@@Aurinkohirvi surma having snake tails is very similar to kerberos of greek mythology, which also has snake tails and freezes everything on gaze, this lönnrots own addition, it didn't exist in the folk poetry, This is coming fronm the age where mythology researchers and folklorists were obsessed to see greece and rome everywhere, they even made their own additions to non-roman mythologies to make it look like it came from rome and greece, because rome and greece were seen as root of all civilization since renaissance. Everything else were seen as I don't think he has heardthis from his grandfather or anything, he just looked at some lönrots stuff which are not reliable and now he claims that he preserved this from pre-christians times, i don't think so.

[@DarkMode95]

Yes, more please

[@BlackDragonTavern]

You got it😁👆

[@zacharyrodriguez4348]

If this finish hell; what is finnish heaven!

[@mikisterio]

There is no heaven and hell in finnish mythology, only Tuonela. As in all dead people whether they were bad or good go to the same place.

[@uwu_smeg]

but as consolation (not 100% on this and it's gonna be very vague but here goes) there should be a cozier place down there that you have to walk to, but if you get tempted by the mf with the black juice then you'll forget you were ever alive and will never find your way there so kinda willpower centric i guess

[@alexie832]

I've read somewhere that Tuoni has another daughter who men travel from far and wide win her hand in marriage. But in order to do that, they had to pass several impossible trials. If one of them succeeds, they get to marry the princess. However this means she'll live and die like a mortal woman, thus probably having her return back to her family where the cycle repeats itself. Can anyone confirm that this myth exists?

[@cutekrizu8214]

there are basically "pohjolan tyttäret"/Louhin tyttäret (daughters of the north / Daughters of Louhi) who are said to be the most beautiful women in the world, and who many men from all over the world go and try to win over. The mother, Louhi, puts one of these men through a multitude of trials in order to "test" him, but in reality she wants the man dead and starts to panic when the man just wont die. Sadly I am not aware of any sort of cycle in these myths so I'd wager that the myth in that sense does not exist in Finnish mythology, or that it is some minority interpretation of the daughters of the north which I am not aware of. In Kalevala, (as the man himself said, basically "our edda") one of these suitors is Lemminkäinen (fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemmink%C3%A4inen), his three tasks are to capture alive the strong and fast "hiiden hirvi" (directily: devil's/hell's/goblin's elk), which he succeeds in after receiving help from the gods of hunting. The second task is to basically kill ("kaataa" in Finnish means to topple, but in old Finnish and during the time Kalevala was written, it could also mean to kill) a "hell's eunuch" (I have no memory of what that was exactly, but it was protected by, if I remember correctly a fiery ring which a hailstorm came and extinguished allowing him to succeed in the mission The third mission is the most well known, it was to shoot the "tuonelan joutsen," (Hell's swan). Basically a huge swan swimming in the black river separating Tuonela (hell) from the world of the living (indeed in our old mythology, if I remember correctly, Hell is not only a place where you go after you die, it is a place where you can visit as a living person. The thing also was that getting in was hard, but not impossible, while getting out was the part most would be worried of. The swan was also a holy bird and a tabu so if you touched it, you would also perish. This is the task which the hero does succeed in, but also dies in the process. In some versions he trips and falls in to the black river where he dies, in other versions he is murdered on the shore by either northmen (louhi's men) who came to see that he did not succeed, or by a shaman of sorts who warned him previously not to harm the bird. since this is actually quite unrelated (I just realized it lol), I'll stop now, but in short. Your depiction of the myth is partially correct. Yes there is a girl of the north /daughter of the north who is said to be the most beautiful of them all, and whose hand many men try to win in marriage. (btw, the stories are actually contradictory in the number of these "daughters", the most that they agree upon is that they seem to be some sort of fairies, or at the very least not human). And yes the suitors needed to go through various impossible tasks and even after them, either Louhi or her daughters may just not honor the agreement. But the rest, and arguably the most interesting part to me, is something that I cannot verify either from the internet, from Kalevala, from my many books about Finnish gods and myths or from my memory, sadly. It still doesn't discredit the rest of it, just makes it super-duper unlikely.

[@appleciderhorror12]

Louhi (Low-He), Lemminkäinen (Lem-min-Cain-nen), Loviatar (Lovy-Atar, just like in the the video)

[@majesticgothitelle1802]

Is there a way to find the lists of slavic & Finnish deity and pantheon.

[@shopdog831]

Tell them about the swan.

[@BlackDragonTavern]

The swan is my favorite 👆

[@AnoAssassin]

Audio cutting out is doing the video disservice :/

[@BlackDragonTavern]

I know 😓 my editing computer has been down and the audio got corrupted, so I had to decide between putting out the best i could get or just putting out nothing. 😩 It will be fixed for the next video!

[@pentegarn1]

Väinämöinen FTW!!!

[@BlackDragonTavern]

By far the funnist name of any legendary hero to say 👆

[@pentegarn1]

@@BlackDragonTavern I just remember in the 1980s getting that first "Wizards and Witches" time life book....with the huge color pictures of him. I was in awe. lol

[@BlackDragonTavern]

His story is one of my absolute favorites. Drunk old bard 😂

[@mattitatti4073]

kalevala's day

[@ilesalmo7724]

Did I hear "Ghost Love Score" at 1:07 or did Nightwish adapt it from some older song? I wonder how much of Kalevala is original, since Lönnrot adapted quite a lot from Greek and Viking myths.

[@ilesalmo7724]

@Lassi Kinnunen 81 For example a lot of Kullervo seems to be inspired by Oedipus. I also wonder if there are any audio--recordings of old people who learned their verses before Lönnrot published Kalevala.

[@crimsonfucker4167]

In my mind, Kalevala does not have a villain only heroes or more accurately maybe champions, a champion of order like Väinämöinen and the champoion of chaos like Louhi.

[@elisabethallison9803]

How long has the name been changed 🤣

[@BlackDragonTavern]

Since the first😅😁

[@elisabethallison9803]

Oh you're joking 🤣 it did not take me that long to notice 🤣

[@Rakuen91]

jeee!

[@haccapel4526]

If you ever learn finnish here would be an interesting read kirjat.finlit.fi/EN/page/product/suomalainen-mytologia/2445460 It's one of the few books on finnish mythology and unfortunately it hasn't been translated to english, though I really think it should be. It is a bit of a slog to read though since it's really academic text. Anyways, keep doing what you're doing,since you're doing great so far.

[@jannehietavirta9744]

Lol we were thought this in kindergarden it's not scary at all

[@iinajulin5161]

I know finnish is super hard language, but pls try to learn how to pronaunce the names correctly.