The Problems with Mormon Personal Revelation | Ep. 1758 | LDS Discussions Ep. 39

[@danp1969]

On my mission, a member recounted a story of hearing the Spirit during Sunday school. The still small whisperings of the Spirit told her to get up and go home. She followed the prompting. She got the kids, but before going home she crossed the street to get the kids some cookies at the mini mart to calm them. While crossing the street a drunk drive hit and killed one of her children. After we left the member's house, the first thing my companion said to me was the Spirit told her to go home, not purchase something on a Sunday. Wow. After my mission, I told the woman's story to my mother. I deliberately paused at the end to give my mother a chance to react, and my mother said the exact same thing my companion said, the Spirit told her to go home, not purchase something on a Sunday. Sometimes Church culture pours massive amounts of salt into the wounds of life.

[@susanmagalas3074]

Amazing how people justify these so called voices of the Spirit. If someone told me that story of hearing voices I would refer them to a mental health expert and sure as hell would never have put them in a position of caring for children. As a non Mormom this just sounds like complete nonsense!

[@bonojennett]

And people wonder why we struggle with scrupulously "following the spirit" in church.

[@Avenger24601]

Maybe she followed the Spirit™ exactly by going “home” to be with Jesus.

[@patriciaswetka3893]

So very sad

[@cristianmerli5050]

Amazing how nobody considers the idea that most LDS call Spirit what is their own thought instead

[@rebeccasirrine947]

Had a returned missionary tell me he'd had a revelation that I was to marry him. I replied, "well, when God reveals it to me, we'll talk." 🙄

[@markkrispin6944]

That return missionary is an idiot.

[@lindseyweaver9857]

🤣🤣 well said!

[@personofinterest8731]

Somebody said something similar when turning down JS too! On point girls!

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

I love it when there are "dueling revelations". I got a revelation telling me that you are supposed to marry me. That's funny, I got a revelation telling me that I'm supposed to NOT marry you. Your revelation is from the devil. Nuh-uh! YOUR revelation is from the devil.

[@jamestrek2570]

Sounds like he’d learned a few tricks from JS. Lol

[@familygrows7627]

My mom had personal revelations and her patriarchal blessing that told her she had lots of kids to bring down from spiritual world… she ended up with 13 children and became an alcoholic and addicted to pills and eventually died from her addiction. The church is to blame for a lot of what happened to her. She was so caring, giving and loving and very vulnerable. It’s disgusting how they treated her when she could no longer pay tithing.

[@TheShodan92]

I'm so sorry to hear about your mum. May she rest in peace

[@EpolynPaprica]

The church's proposed method of "personal revelation + check it against what leaders say" is just exact/unthinking obedience with extra steps.

[@markkrispin6944]

It is called brainwashing.

[@OuttaMyMind911]

It’s the leaders taking over the roll of the “spirit”. When leaders tell us the spirit can only confirm what the leaders say anyway, what’s the point?!

[@anjelikag]

I will say at 1 hour in, John goes OFFF in the best way! The energy you have when talking about personal revelation differences and why God can tell Joseph to marry someone who is 14, but God couldn’t possibly be the one telling a family to stay home to possibly receive a blessing that they wouldn’t in church is amazing. “If God can tell Nephite to chop off the head of Laman certainly God can tell a member to stay home from church for whatever higher reasons God wants..” thank you Nemo for pointing out saying “they lead God, they are in charge of what god gets to say to you and not say to you..”

[@yoitsannajo]

"The gospel is consistent throughout" is the funniest part of this whole thing.

[@michellejean8068]

But societychanges. Tge people we were 200 years ago are different than what we know now. The truth will always be truth. Not saying about society's changes. The Sun will always be the Sun but science etc looks at it differently than it did then We all walk in Grace so give yourself a break and there's a way for us all to attain our goals.

[@bjb-iq3lp]

Thank you John! Please keep going! You are very good at being sensitive to all sides to create a dialogue! I couldn't do it...! I feel more hope for the world because of your show

[@tawnyachristensen7310]

This series is so helpful! Thank you to this wonderful and wise panel for this discussion! Love it when Nemo joins!

[@mariapark2374]

Extremely well thought out podcast. I agree with John, giving "man" the power to be God is just too dangerous.

[@cantsay]

Following that logic, since all bibles and all religions are made by man, all religions are dangerous

[@michellesmith6891]

Thankyou so much for all your work Mike, Nemo, and John!❤

[@SilentThundersnow]

I finally concluded that it was driving me literally insane, trying to hear a voice from outside of me tell me what to do all the time, but never knowing what voice was from where. I 'heard' a thought in my head once that said if I loved Jesus, I would stop wasting time watching TV. I didn't think that. But this thought popped into my head one day. I spent the next couple of years in torment as I vowed to not waste time watching TV. Every time I tried to relax and watch TV with my family, I felt intense guilt. It's just wrong to teach people that this 'voice,' that comes from who knows where, is telling you what to do! It completely separates you from your own voice of reason, your own decision making based on what you want to do or need to do. If you were raised with child a*abuse, 'voices' from your past can come into your head . I thought for much of my life, that God was saying 'You're stupid.' 'You're not forgivable.' It makes you obsessive and compulsive. I can't tell you the peace that came into my life when I gave myself permission to stop listening for 'a voice' to tell me what to do. I was reconnected to my own identity. I was reconnected to logic and reason and my own 'voice' and I could change my mind without guilt because it was me. My son has schizophrenia, and I've since learned that this is teaching members to be schizophrenic. Since Joseph Smith had a son that was institutionalized with schizophrenia, it makes me wonder if he had a mild form that made him so believable because he really was hearing voices and seeing hallucinations. This teaching is far more dangerous than people realize . I have friends that are frozen in indecision because they are listening for a voice from outside of themselves to tell them what to do. Simple decisions become monumental roadblocks to just living your life! If you're prone to OCD or schizophrenia, it makes them SO MUCH WORSE . It's truly insanity to live like this.

[@beccaw74]

Many of the churches teachings fed my OCD. There are so many things I would have done differently had I known that the thoughts I was having were because of a mental illness and not the spirit telling me what to do and not because I was a bad person. For example, I felt for the longest time that I had to quit taking dance classes that I absolutely loved. The only reason I felt that was because I had an intrusive thought guilting me into quitting during sacrament meeting. I fought mentally with it for the longest time. One day one of the counselors in the stake presidency has a heart attack, and has an intrusive thought promise to God that I would quit dance to save him. I didn't actually want to do that, so I did my best to undo the thought. Then he died within the week, and I had to convince my 14 year old self that my lack of quitting dance classes was not the cause of his death. I kind of felt like I had totally killed him. The guilt I carried then was not mine. My parents don't understand why I've stopped attending church, and to be fair to them I haven't explained it very well. But I was so tired of following what I thought was the voice of God, and church is so triggering to me now. I don't want to go back, even though I do miss the sense of community that came with church. But I want to make my own choices, and not be a slave to my own brain, which going to church made it easy to do.

[@paulhoughton2273]

My wondering about things started in Logan when I have a highly trained service dog that was trained just for me because I have a traumatic brain injury, and they were specific things I needed the dog for. My bishop told me I could not bring him to church, even though all he did was lay under my chair and not make a sound. I felt like I received revelation from myself that it was OK that I didn’t go to church because I need to take care of myself. I know that sounds odd but every since my coma everything is about me as odd. Since watching these, it’s really opening my eyes. Before I thought it was just President Nelson but now it looks like it’s everything from Joseph Smith and started with him. It’s really messed up everything I’ve always thought to where I don’t know what I believe.

[@SilentThundersnow]

Keep standing up for yourself. It's actually illegal for your bishop to tell you your service dog can't come to church. You're doing the right thing. You deserve the same treatment of kindness, empathy, and respect, that any God would want you to give to others. If others take that away from you, surely a loving God would want you to take away their power, and give yourself that love you deserve. 💕🐕 I'm sorry about your tbi. I know how it changes everything. My son got a relatively minor concussion, but it changed his personality and abilities. It's so hard. Take care of yourself.

[@jozz7061]

I believe there is a God, but it’s not what we were taught to believe as Mormons. Try not to worry too much about what to believe. Life itself is a spiritual journey.

[@danp1969]

I know of a couple of fireside chats with famous LDS who did not go on missions (Danny Ainge (NBAer) and Devin Graham (youtuber)). During question and answer periods when asked if they went on a mission, they responded the same, that they didn't because they felt they could reach more people with their celebrity. The funny thing is, when they were 19 they were not famous yet and their answer implies if they went on missions they would not have been famous. I guess if you become famous your personal revelation is allowed to contradict the Church.

[@tombaker6083]

That's the LDS Psyche

[@garthof_izar2688]

@@iamanempoweredone6064 Sometime around 1976, I was told Spencer W. Kimball had given Donny special permission to not go on a mission. I took that to mean I didn't have to go, either. Of course, I was ostracized about two weeks after my 19th birthday when I didn't go. I then felt I had no choice but to drop out of the church. It turned out, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. Thanks, Donny and SWK. Kimball was the guy who changed missions from optional to mandatory in 1974. My personal opinion/revelation has always been that pushing religion on strangers is stupid. No offense meant to RMs, like three of my siblings.

[@garthof_izar2688]

@@iamanempoweredone6064 According to this video (which I agree), you had better not express your opinion at the pulpit about missions being optional for young men. My understanding is that in the following 49 years, SWK's 1974 "request" has morphed into a "revelation", aka commandment.

[@copper2walcott]

Great video!! This is the main reason I was so miserable in the church. Feeling like you are broken for 35 years is far too long. My convert parents still don't understand the pressures and complexity of being raised LDS.

[@Zeett09]

The spirit told me to stay home and stop paying tithing so that the blessings intended for me could be redirected to someone less fortunate.

[@laurettaleone6482]

Thanks for doing this public. This helps in the patriarchal Church I grew up in. This helps in the patriarchal home I grew up in. This helps me in the patriarchal world I grew up in. Such an important video. Bravo!

[@mattenger7064]

I think it’s also important to know that revelation isn’t just for “the righteous.” God spoke to the vilest of sinners, he spoke to Cain, he spoke to Laman and Lemuel. I do believe that the kingdom of God truly is within us. It will never be found in a church. All church and all institutions are corrupt. God will speak to anyone and the revelation Oaks forcefully rejected from that poor youth is so wrong…. God will talk to all of us…. And it really is within.

[@zacheryeckard3051]

Or... he talks to none of us.

[@sheliabryant3997]

Matt Enger: Say it again, 1000 x !

[@cristianmerli5050]

Talked to leman and lemuel? For sure not because they are proven fiction

[@SammyNeedsAnAlibi]

How very brave to make this video, especially after the gag order from President Russell telling everyone to be mute on it, or if called to testify, call the LDS Front Office first on August 4, 2020. Power to ya.

[@ryanhollist3950]

Do you have a source you can point to on this?

[@sallyostling]

Ignoring the reality that the Daybell case is Mormon related isn't how this channel is run. John has been excommunicated for talking truths, they're not afraid to report on the case.

[@SammyNeedsAnAlibi]

@@sallyostling I didn't know that- thank you for clarifying it for me. ☯

[@SilentThundersnow]

I'm so confused. What?

[@user-sr2qz7uw2t]

I believe in personal revelation. I have been inactive for many years but I will always be LDS. I pray regularly and try to be a good and honest person. I feel him with me. I have had impressions to do or no do something. I follow those impressions and I feel safe. I thank God for him being in my life and not feeling alone. I am grateful for the blessings he has given me.

[@jeffs4483]

CES Letter.

[@bobicusrex]

A lot of spiritual things can be explained by someone entering a frisson emotional state. It's an actual emotion that can be triggered by multiple things but it can often be confused with spiritual things depending upon how it activates.

[@kyrroti]

The personal revelation stuff is so toxic. I’m trans, and while I was still active in the church, my parents asked me to pray if that was true. They DID NOT say that for me to test or validate my feelings, they said it to push me away from what I want.

[@julieprince5538]

John, I love your passion in sharing the Truth! If you step back and take the emotion out of the narrative and look at the church with common sense, the church makes no sense. Thank you Mike and Nemo for your perspectives! Can someone explain if the church leaders take voice lessons to hypnotize its members? They all sound the same. Spot on Mike that it’s only God if the message support the church. When I was baptized at 8 I was telling the church my God doesn’t hate black people, and I am so grateful my family left the church when I was 10 and was not brainwashed for my formative years.. Thank you Mormon Stories!!!

[@nadzach]

The first time i ever heard from God it was a voice behind me, absolutely as if a man were standing there. I felt the vibration in my ear as well as hearing the voice. I had a strip of wet wallpaper in my hands and on my way up a ladder. I had no clear idea why my husband was having me redo the second floor into an apartment. I thought it was for income. God knew what the future held. He spoke my name and said "I will take care of you." A few months later i accompanied my husband to sttlement on the sale of this house. He had requested a cash settlement and he walked out with all the money. I was left to pay rent in what had been my home. I had no food for the children, while my husband bought a home for his girlfriend. But i held those words in my heart, "i will take care of you." I went out to find a job and my prayer was that i would take the first job i was offered, so "please make it the right one." I knew we wouldn't starve, but i sold everything to make it through those first weeks. I did my part, God fulfilled his promise and my faith was lifted to a new level. Im not LDS, and im not sure I'd believe what an LDS member thinks is revelation. The less dramatic leadership comes from prayer and answers in scripture, that would be the Bible as i know it. And I'd write my question down before prayer and searching. If i really didnt get an answer, I'd try starting in the direction of my desire. The righteous desires are a drawing. The unrighteous desires feel like youre being driven.

[@seasonsofrenewal]

thank you for sharing this there are many similar stories within the church this just happens to be a forum for venting and negative stuff I hope that he will do a podcast on stories like yours that are not as easy to explain away or mock because they exist in very large numbers in the church and wherever people are open to them

[@Lookatmedonnad]

at 60 minutes John talks about the murders in the BOM. talks about those getting revelation to kill their children and call out Daybells and Lafertys. Thank you

[@polyglot6542]

I got my patriarchal blessing and nothing of what it said came to pass. I made decisions and I am a very happy person with my decisions throughout my life. So, I cab sincerely say, Patriarchal blessings are the desires for a person to do what the church wants you to do and has nothing to do with achieving happiness. I'm proof of it. I'm sure there are olenty of cases out there that corroborate my story

[@danp1969]

Well said Nemo, tell people revelation is real and then immediately manage expectations regarding the extent revelation will work. On my mission I had one person immediately ask why the need for prophets if we can receive revelation ourselves. If God is no respecter of person's then He must behave the same with everyone. So, if a person prays with the exact same faith as Joseph Smith, God would be obligated to appear to them also. It seems by LDS standards God is a respecter of persons. Nemo nailed it again "People don't get expectations out of nowhere" Apologist don't get that with their blame the flawed members for the Church's failures. Mike nailed it. Heads we win tails you lose. No principle of falsifiability. Without falsifiability then the method cannot give truth.

[@utah133]

Trouble is, the human mind is such that one can convince themselves of nearly anything with enough mental effort. I'm a "baptized at 8" Mormon, but wasn't severely indoctrinated as a child. Now I figure it's all a myth, as are all religions.

[@SilentThundersnow]

You three are so brilliant brilliant brilliant! This is packed full of insight and wisdom!! Church leaders: 'we're infallible,' but 'you can't expect us to be perfect, we're just imperfect men.' It really is 'heads i win, tails you lose.'

[@Cel_566]

Fantastic episode guys. So much wisdom from all three, much appreciated ❤

[@function0077]

The expectations do not come from the "culture" (this is victim blaming). The expectations come from the teachings of the leaders (past and present).

[@JackieCooligan-ci7wm]

Thanks for not tiptoeing around the immeasurable harm caused by the church. Mormon Stories is an excellent evidence-based podcaster that extends in value beyond Mormonism to other high demand religions.

[@phyllisw.]

Thanks so much for all of your dedication !!!

[@tradehead]

My wife and I have always prayed for revelation regarding the raising and direction of our children. Perhaps twenty to thirty times or more throughout their lives we have been amazed at the thought we have received to direct them that turned out to be the perfect decision. We have marveled many times about this. Lets see, your listening to a guy that was excommunicated from a spiritual entity. That makes sense.

[@SilentThundersnow]

Let's see, you're listening to an invisible friend. John is speaking from experience and conviction. When you stand up for what you think is right, and you get excommunicated, that's honorable. No God would ever find fault with that, or else the whole Joseph Smith story is just a story of a boy who refused to submit to the truth as it was known by church leaders, and was a Infidel and a rebel. You can't say people should worship 'how, where, and what they may,' and condemn John for doing that, without also condemning Joseph Smith. 90% of people on earth are praying for help to feed their children and things are not 'working out great' for them. Do you ever ask yourself why you get helped so much more than them? I'm sure it's not just because you are privileged enough to have enough opportunities that made things working out more possible. Maybe you just made good decisions. Maybe it was a God, but it doesn't make you a good person to condemn John while you claim the right to do the same thing to other Christian churches. Remember? They're 'abominations.' Fine. You can even speak out against the Catholic Church if you feel it's not true. So why would you, in your mind, think that John doesn't have that same freedom to do and say what he thinks is truth, and STILL be a good person? 🤷‍♀️

[@ranicalerp7765]

I actually got very clear answers from "God" when I had asked questions. Maybe I attributed parts of my own self to a god, I don't know. But I would have very specific thoughts of what to do, or time frames that were predicted, certain people to talk to, etc. Now that I'm out of the church, I still have the same inner guidence. Maybe some people attribute parts of themselves to external things, so it feels like the information is coming from the outside? Or maybe there really is some collective consciousness that our minds tap into sometimes like a radio?

[@heathercondie4176]

Mike and Nemo your comments are awesome.

[@Maryfs1]

51:38 I have to push back on John here. He implies that our desire to civilize and improve on our base instincts is somehow NOT also a part of the "natural man". But it is. We're not going against human nature by participating in being part of a social species.

[@anjelikag]

Thank you Mike for pointing out that “we should replace what God wants with that the Church wants”. I would rather bet my money on the fact that those parents DID receive a real relevation about not still paying tithing to the church, than pay the church tithing myself..😅

[@Mrs.WhiteLady]

Very interesting and a very worthwhile listen!

[@celestejohnson6581]

It's called intuition, your inner soul but you must have one

[@patriciaswetka3893]

Thank you for this discussion - and for this series and channel!

[@reneenolan3163]

There is so much good, honest information here, thank you! I only wish I could figure out how to ask the questions that would help my family think critically for themselves. Many are so intelligent and open in every intellectual arena just not religion.

[@mhunt7843]

The one Mormon leader said he needed to be still and to know that HE was God. He put himself in the true God’s place.

[@flowerpower3618]

I’m not LDS , but a Bible believing Christian. It is so important to always back every thing biblically. The Lord 0:17 will never lead you to do anything against His own Word. The Bible is God’s Word. It is how He speaks to us. One thing I noticed is their tendency towards new age practices. Did they not read Deuteronomy chapter 18 , where the Lord calls all such things an abomination? Go back to the simplicity of the gospel . We are sinners, we are in need of a savior . Jesus Christ died for our sins that we might be made right before a never changing MostHoly God. His resurrection gives us a chance at new life, and eternity with Him. Praise be to God for His plan of salvation offered to all who believe.

[@elizabethharris8172]

Yes and Amen!

[@DrBananaPig]

"The Bible is God's word" (citation and proof needed)

[@lilypondo]

@@DrBananaPig How circular is the thinking of Christians?? They cite the Bible as their "proof" in any argument and are deaf, dumb and blind to the possibility that the Bible could simply be fictionalized history and myths. Why does anyone need a group (such as a church) to tell them what is right or wrong? Why is their God not as good a parent as my own daughter? Religious believers as people can be delightful humans, and I don't discuss religion unless I trust the person to be open-minded. But the rigid ones, the brainwashed ones, the ones who use religion to hurt others, those believers are people I avoid. Last thought: people are complicated, life is unpredictable, variety in living things is inevitable - - binary-thinking, rigid and unchanging "rules", lack of plasticity in perspective, these are the signs of a belief system that will eventually break. No argument with you, @BananaPig, just picked this spot to editorialize upon, as it seemed that you might be less religious...

[@OuttaMyMind911]

Personal revelation and spiritual witnesses are really just a way for people to give support to their own feelings. It’s completely undeserving of this support and in a religious atmosphere, also helps prevent questioning.

[@Zeett09]

“Nemo you’re a tiny bit more salty than me today” Caffeinated Nemo! Yes! 😂

[@bbbarham6264]

What happened to the Mormon news weekly episode w. Patrick Mason? It’s gone. I heard he got a lot of kickback for it. Hopefully it’s not canceled.

[@patricianoel7782]

Yes, how different is he from Nemo in confronting the dogma of the Church?

[@danp1969]

Revelation is not allowed to contradict the Church. Except, as the apologist are now educating us without end, most of what we thought was the Church was never doctrine, just personal opinions. So it is impossible for personal revelation to contradict the Church. For example, Oaks' example of receiving a revelation to give 10% to welfare instead of the Church doesn't contradict the Church because the idea of giving 10% to the Church instead of welfare was personal opinion not doctrine.

[@jeanettemarie6456]

Okay, number 39, at this point I should get a degree. Thanks for your hard work! >>>>>Vote 💙

[@steel6322]

I received revelation to leave the church and my bishop mocked me.

[@bobicusrex]

Frisson emotional state is the standard for the "holy Spirit" and usually the cause of personal revelation

[@AR-sz5lm]

Belief in personal revelation is great until your psychotic abusive father claimed to literally be having personal conversations with God and Jesus (in person) to then say what "they" think of you and want you to do. It's freaking scary then.

[@trishayamada807]

Exactly why as a nonbeliever, I’ve never been afraid of any god, only the people who claim their god wants them to do something to me.

[@susandonohoe1494]

Love the series! Not LDS but have 2 sisters who converted. I think the instruction of reading the BOM and wait for verification is somewhat self hypnotizing. If I read Gone with the Wind, I'm pretty sure my "revelation" would include hoop skirts and a strong craving for a mint julep.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Scarlett O'Hara, describing the way that devout Mormons deal with the logical, doctrinal and historical problems of Mormonism: "I'll think about that tomorrow. Tomorrow is another day."

[@mariapark2374]

@@TEAM__POSEID0N v

[@AmbibiIbarra]

Just baptized 30 April 2023... but after watching the revelations and painstaking research of Dr. Dehlin, Nemo and Michael, most likely I'm recanting my belief and faith with LDS...

[@AmbibiIbarra]

My greatest regret was my immersion, my conversion, the greatest deception to every member of LDS, 3B dollars church l...

[@shirleywilcox6565]

As a Christian and non-Mormon, I have learned so much from your channel. I am amazed (and disgusted) by the teachings of the Mormon church. So many really good people have been “duped.” Keep up your good work! And I love your beautiful wife. What I believe (that Jesus is the way to God) is a fairytale to many but I know in my “knower” that He is real.

[@hbendzulla8213]

Very nice, just believe in Jesus Christ and do the best, in lives honest life.

[@monus782]

In Catholicism we had sort of our own equivalent to this by diving revelation in general into two sections, that is "public" and "private". The former is the stuff that every Catholic is obligated to believe (that at least the core stories like the Gospels are very much historical, that the Bible is inerrant and the power and necessity of the sacraments for example) while the latter is stuff that is approved by the hierarchy but you're not obligated to believe in and this includes almost all accounts of miracles that have happened since Biblical times (such as the Virgin Mary appearing to a bunch of kids somewhere or Our Lady of Guadalupe that is everywhere back when I was growing up in Mexico) and this category might fit more with the Mormon view of revelation but the Catholic church is even more strict on what type of personal revelation it might approve. John Dehlin's story of waiting for an answer from God as a teen very much reminded of my own story as Catholics have something called the "vocation" which is basically the type of role God wants you to be, it's mostly either being married and having a ton of kids (at least if you follow the more fundamentalist interpretation like I did) or if you're a guy you become a priest or monk instead (however if you're a girl the convent is usually your only other option). Without realizing it back then I think when I was in my early 20's I was already childfree because I couldn't see myself as a biological father so I was convinced I was meant to be a priest instead (also intentionally not having children is unthinkable for devout Catholics because that's supposed to be the main purpose marriage for them but I know most American Catholics ignore this teaching anyways, another reason why I really looked down on less devout members then) and was given similar advice about how to go about it, that is mostly just pray to God and he'll give you "signs" as you go along. Since I was also a bit of a theology nerd this was another thing that convinced me I was meant to be a priest and nearly ended up going to a seminary college in the middle of Nebraska as it has the reputation of being one of the most conservative ones you can find. During those years I was also an arrogant "facts and logic" type of guy who very often mocked Evangelicals for their apparent emotionalism and I would've done the same to the Mormons had I known about all of this (I barely paid any attention to them because I thought it was super obvious Joseph Smith was a false prophet and couldn't see why would anyone fall for someone like him, however one time I went to the local campus Institute of Religion out of curiosity and after being given a tour I was also told to pray if the BoM was true, I never did though), conservative Christians usually mock more progressive ones by accusing them of creating a God who agrees with "the world" and their modern views for not seeing the LGBT+ community as an abomination and some of the stuff Nemo said reminded me of that. To add to that after leaving I considered the Quakers for some time and went to their Sunday Silent Worship sessions and one of the things that stuck with me was their concept of the "Inner Light" which sounded pretty similar to listening to the Spirit or the interior wisdom y'all mentioned, like the Unitarians I am now part of they allow all sorts of viewpoints for the most part so they're nowhere near as hierarchical as the Catholic or Mormon churches. 53:45 this is the exact same problem I have with the Catholic Church and other high demand religions and in our case it was because we were threatened with eternal torture the moment we did something like having sexy thoughts, in hindsight one of the most absurd things I've ever done is allowing celibate men to dictate and control my sex life especially as a hormonal teenager and in my early 20's. I've tried to make peace with my past as much as possible but this is the one thing I'll probably never forgive my previous church for all the pointless repression and guilt I went through and I've heard that Purity Culture can be pretty brutal for Mormons too. 1:09:34 as I've sometimes heard from other ex-Catholics and ex-Christians in general in these groups you can have a high school education or less to join but you need at least three theology PhDs to be able to make your case on why you left, I used to look down on apostates as simpletons who didn't read the apologetics enough (our equivalent to the lazy learners thing I guess) but ironically I didn't read the Bible or other doctrinal documents in their entirety back then.

[@freedomandcoffee]

It's funny that the church leader says that if you are hearing to do something you don't already want to do it's more likely it's from the spirit... what about JS & polygamy? what about all of those visions and Holy Spirit messages he got about marrying teenagers? They sure didn't want to do it but he wrote a whole letter about how it would make him "Happy." Why is it not the Holy Spirit when a current church member is lusting but it was for him? Which is it?

[@freedomandcoffee]

Wow. "If your message from God doesn't agree with us it's from Satan." Good to know.

[@madeleineclark283]

I've never heard such an insanely good point before! If God can command us to commit murder or take on multiple wives when the Book of Mormon itself (which is supposedly God's word) says polygamy is an "abomination," why can't he command one family to stay home from church together? He commands us to break the commandments sometimes, apparently!

[@michellejean8068]

No killing someone has rules. To protect family and country. Multiple wives was shut down because tge phropet said the people would ve wiped off the face of the earth. So now days it isnt supported by By the Priesthood. .

[@patriciaswetka3893]

The emotional manipulation and damage the LDS Mormon Church does is so heartbreaking. One family member who converted shared with me that they were told to listen to feelings and NOT intellectual knowledge. After 40+ years, I believe that the thought control has strongly contributed to my loved one’s descent into mental illness.

[@jeffs4483]

LDS is mental illness.

[@brookealbretsen5180]

I wish God would tell people not to go to church when they are sick. Then one wouldn’t have given my daughter RSV when she was a couple months old.

[@fatemeetsluck]

42:00 Oooo you're gonna love this. I went directly to God about my doubts, and He explained to me personally, step by step, line upon line, precept upon precept, how this false church that bears the name of His Son is the most anti-Christ blasphemous mockery of the Almighty in the way it is operated, and the harm it did and still does to His children, regardless of the core truths they were given and squandered. The Spirit of Truth bears witness of this and holds more weight than the uninspired opinions of these false prophets who claim to speak for Him. EDIT: this isn't a "feeling" or "burning" I literally mean, God lead me down an information rabbit hole and divine insight.

[@markbutler6196]

LOVE YOU GUYS! so true- excellent!

[@imkindofabigdeal4308]

If the prophet doesn't get any more inspiration than the Pope or the paster of the mega-church down the road then why?

[@jayme6189]

About 26 yrs ago I received a vision or revelation, that my family needed to go and be sealed in the temple. As soon as the vision was over, and it literally only lasted about 30 seconds to a minute, I knew what it was that I was experiencing. I knew it was a true revation as soon as it happened, and why the personal revelation was given to me. I contacted our bishop that night, and we made arrangements for us to go to the temple and be sealed. These men are talking about in recieving personal revelation, but they forgot that God answers our questions and prayers in many different ways. A direct answer is only one of the many ways we receive answers.

[@Dink1963]

Sooooo many similarities to fundamental Roman Catholicism and further back, connections to the pagan beliefs of the British islands where Joseph smiths ancestors came from. NOT a coincidence.

[@chrissessions6108]

And by the power of the stupor of thought ye may know the truth of all things.

[@connormorgan6884]

I've long since turned my back on the LDS leadership and any false revelations they may try to bribe me with... I'd like to share an experience that happened to me almost 4 years ago. A tragic love story. There was a young lady I dated known as Esther Ward in my former YSA. She was my closes friend whom I dated for a good 3 years. We were close and we were always together whenever we had time from work or from school in her case. She was the only young lady in the ysa ward that made me feel loved, wanted and accepted. But the thing was Esther was a bit of a Molly mormon and I wasn't. And because I wasn't living up to her lds expectations, she broke up with me. But prior to her breaking up with me, I do remember asking Heavenly Father in "sincere prayer" if Esther and myself were meant to be together as lovers and eternal companions. I did feel the confirmation from the Holy Spirit and I did feel the burning in the bosom. So I was really happy and confident we'd be together throughout the eternities. And that wasn't the first time I felt that confirmation and it wasn't the last. Unfortunately those big dreams of us being together never happened, she started dating a guy behind my back and broke up with me very harshly and judgementally about a week after my spiritual confirmation. The guy she left me for is currently her eternal companion. And because that happened, it was soon made clear to me that the lds church isn't true. I tried to stay in longer and tried to hold unto my faith but I couldn't. Because you have to think outside the box with logic and reason. I had a confirmation from a feeling that is supposedly caused by God himself telling me, we'd be together but we didn't end up together. In d&c 9 verses 8 to 9 it says if something is right God will cause a burning in the bosom and if something is not right, you are supposed to forget about it. So a burning for yes and forgetfulness for no. I felt the burning and I don't believe that's personal bias, I think thats a cop out excuse to avoid the real problem. I wasn't just betrayed by Esther but also the mormon God or rather the religious institution that claimed to serve God directly. So I don't mean to sound self centered when I say this but this does come from the heart. If the lds church turns out to be true, then I think its reasonable and fair for me to say she married the wrong guy and she made a mistake leaving me. Or the church is a lie and I was misled by an evil organization that cant take accountability for their own faults, Which is what I believe in Today, because what kind of God tells me something will happen and then doesnt? I soon left the church after she got married and I left to go find the true God and hopefully one day find my true soulmate, I have yet to meet someone but I have find greater happiness outside the church than inside. I have no interest in returning to the lds church, unless God plans on returning my former lover to me. As far as I'm concerned the mormon church is a lie. Do yourself a favor and leave it before it does to you what did to me

[@derektilley669]

I would just love to hear the leader's response to hearing another cult give the exact same counsel on defaulting to the leadership. Don't you think Joseph Smith's evangelical leaders told him the same thing? Aren't people investigating the mormon church told by their current church to default to the bible, or the pope, or allah? The biggest problem with believer's logic is that it's never applied equally.

[@jonathana8411]

soooo basically they use their conscience when getting answers to personal questions.... hmm, interesting.

[@Dink1963]

Can you give your honest perspective on the Lori Vallow and Chad daybell’s murder trial partially connected to some of the original Josephus smith beliefs including personal revelation and visions?

[@danadennis7454]

There were two great episodes about the overlap in beliefs - maybe a year or so ago. Lauren and dr John were guests (hidden true crime).

[@Dink1963]

@@danadennis7454 thanks. I will check it out!

[@zedlaftzegarld]

John, I believe the marshmallow experiment has been found to have issues

[@darinbracy8433]

15:33 - The NAR movement (New Apostolic Reformation) Bethel Church in Redding California has also picked up this being able to get revelation and other gifts of the Spirit and they have a School of Supernatural Ministry that teaches how to obtain your gift.

[@Pay-It_Forward]

I'd like to 🐻 my testimony that when the rubber meets the road, you better not be wearing it!!! 😆 🤣 😂

[@hourofprayer2960]

Do an episode on n patriochal blessings

[@walkbyfaith2874]

Why does the church put more authority in the Book of Mormons than the bible?

[@cris23peralta]

Because it's another testament of Jesus Christ

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

They actually put more authority in their blowhard leaders. They can interpret the Book of Mormon to suit whatever. The Book of Mormon takes priority over the Bible because, according to Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon is the "most correct book on earth" while the Bible is full of errors. Don't try to make sense of any of it, unless you like getting headaches.

[@sthomas2504]

@ 1:18:08 I'm still very confused about what exactly is covered under "clergy privilege" when it comes to deciding whether or not to report child abuse. Yeah, if a child abuser is confessing to a member of the "clergy" that they are committing acts of abuse then that is A CONFESSION (which I assume rarely happens in the Mormon church)! However, if a person is INFORMING a member of the "clergy" of abuse because they suffered it or know of the abuse; that is NOT A CONFESSION! OH MY GOD, WHY CAN'T THESE BASTARDS GET A BRAIN! I'm confused about whether or not the church leadership refuses to explain to their "clergy" the difference between a CONFESSOR and an INFORMANT, or if they are just pretending ignorance in order to clump everything said behind closed doors as privileged information?

[@darinbracy8433]

13:00 - Personal revelation would be an off shot of the whole Second Great Awakening, and the bringing back the Gifts of the Spirit, tongues, healings, prophets, apostles. There were others during the time of Smith who had started to push this, but it does not come to full fruit until the Azusa Street Revival which gives us Pentecostalism.

[@CuriousThinker1776]

Personally, I don't think it is their age that removes them from understanding what is going on. I think it is their money, popularity, and unquestioned (in most cases by the majority of the church) authority. That could happen to a 30 yo just as easily as an 80 yo or 90 yo.

[@function0077]

What if the personal revelation you are seeking is something important to you, but also something that the leaders of the church have not ever addressed? This seems like a weak point in Mormon "theology".

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

What I've observed is that the leaders are totally fine with "personal revelation" on matters of personal importance (job decisions, marriage decisions, career decisions, relocation decisions, etc.)...BUT ONLY to the extent that the "personal revelation" in no way challenges the authority or leadership privileges of the leaders. For example, if the leaders say that you must teach out of the approved and correlated lesson manual, a lowly Sunday school teacher cannot claim any authority based on "personal revelation" to go contrary to that. (They may get away with it for a time, depending on their local leaders, but if any leaders above them don't like it, the SS teacher's "personal revelation" will count for nothing.)

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

As for things that the church has not ever addressed, the top leaders don't seem to care as long as it promotes faith in the church and the leaders. If it undermines their authority or faith in the church as an institution, it's definitely taboo. The rule of thumb is that pretty much anything is okay (as long as it's not embarrassingly ridiculous) if it is consistent with positive perceptions of the authority, leadership and goodness of the church and the GAs. You can't teach about "Heavenly Mother" for example, because the leaders have already declared that off limits...so to do so would be a challenge to their leadership.

[@Gideonslc]

The history of The King James Bible isn't the most correct version. The committee that developed it also wanted to establish the divine right of Kings. It's heavily modified to help support the divine right... it becomes the easiest Bible to use to establish the divine right of religious authority.

[@With_a_Grain_of_Salt]

If people in power can overrule personal revelation, bad people can use that to offend. Ex. Follow your parents and your parents have addictions and are abusive. Ex. A kid tells a bishop something doesn’t feel right; the bishop says they are right and the bishop is committing s*x**l *ss**lt.

[@michellejean8068]

My point is the gospel is true for me. People are not perfect so if a person left the church because what someone said or did ....then there missed the point. I dont t find anything beneficial here .., sharing a person's own experience with no proof or back ground. But it's their journey I don t call them a liar . Just sad they lost a piece of connection to God. If you remeber what you felt at your baptism then it can get you through the dark times. U less y0u d8dnt feel the gift of tge Holy Spirit. Maybe y0u weren't meant to be a member. Only yo

[@dannyardito72]

I have been a convert since 1979. I have learned a very valuable lesson while serving in various leadership roles, those who leave the church, did NOT have a testimony and many joined, because it was easier to get financial assistance from the church. Opinion varies. If you are miserable sitting in church, look at yourself first. I have only found that, my path on this earth has a purpose and the church has helped me a lot(not financially. I'm self reliant).

[@LockLemon]

I believed in the Church more than I believed in anything in my entire life. Served a valiant mission. Got married in the temple. I believed in it fiercely. When I left, I still believed it was true, but I couldn't ignore how terribly dishonest and cruel the church was, especially towards missionaries and LGBTQ people (Of which I am both) Now that I'm gone, I'm so, SO much happier. But I believed. Saying "oh those people never believed in the first place" is disingenuous at best.

[@melk6049]

We r glad for u. Others are unable to believe that a con man would be chosen by God to reveal a "new" revelation and use a seer stone to"translate" gold tablets that were never seen...oh you bad that God took them back to heaven. Also as a blk person I would never believe in this revelation bc it says I'm cursed bc of behaviours I did in a pre existing life that I don't even remember a d the con man is the one who said this preexistence even happened. No thx..but if believing lies helps u in this life then so be it. If your pride makes it so that u believe that u can be good enough to one day be a God then so be it. No wonder pride is one of the 7 deadly sin...it leads to a path of destruction. U will never be good enough to be a god...u can never be a god...u will never be a god...bc u are a flwed being and u KNOW this deep within your soul but ur pride won't let u admit this. We cannot be good enough to be worthy of worship...

[@kaitlyns9737]

It sounds to me like you have never actually talked to anyone who left the church. And if you did, you sure weren't listening.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Nobody actually has a "testimony". That's a silly euphemism for having a belief and either feeling good about the belief or trying to talk oneself into feeling good about one's belief. When a person is intellectually honest enough to consider all the evidence for and against their belief and realizes that the belief can't withstand scrutiny, it's silly to talk about them "losing their testimony" or "not ever having a real testimony".

[@jeffs4483]

Many leave after gaining a testimony of the truth that the LDS is a fraud.

[@Aveysaur]

i did the whole praying to know if the church was true thing. multiple times. never got a thing. i used to wonder what was wrong with me. now i know this church isn't true, and it's the most freeing feeling. there's nothing wrong with me. there never was anything wrong with me. edit: "he'll answer when he wants to" he waited so long to answer my prayers that he lost me. how is that beneficial?

[@MsCaterific]

❤️‍🔥

[@thanksformutton1037]

1:21:51 look to the cookie! - Seinfeld

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Funny how they always talk about a "still, small voice"...like that's a good thing. "Still" actually means nothing is happening because everything is...still. "Small voice" can mean anything from inaudible, to very indistinctly, unintelligibly and faintly audible. Not good. I know I'm weird, but it seems to me that it would be better if God or the Holy Ghost would communicate with a "clearly audible and intelligible voice" instead of a "still, small voice". Like a "small voice" at best would be like me being upstairs and hearing my niece down in the basement whispering something to her dolls in her pretend tea party. "Ssprsh...shp gessr to sussssklr rfrrrs tea ashhssrps...hisshag shhyrr ok?" "What's she saying down there?" "Oh, I'm pretty sure she's saying nice things about me." Can you imagine how valuable it would be to give important presentations in a "still, small voice". "I can kind of hear her voice, but I can't make out what she's saying. Why doesn't she speak louder?" "Well, she's using the still, small voice technique for presenting information. It's supposedly a really good technique. "How so?" "Uh...you know...I'm not really sure. I've never had a good experience with it."

[@tiff3156]

The thing is we are all carnal minded. We are human. Its in our nature. We all have evil thoughts and do evil things. But Christ conforms us to His liking...by much chastising...basically reality hits you. For example, You cant continue to be a drunk because it wrecks your life and everyone around you. Jesus gives us wisdom... and we can NOT know what is good and righteous without first experiencing what is bad and unrighteous...we wouldnt have definitons otherwise! Cant have sweet without bitter! And we are saved by FAITH ONLY...not by anything we can do. God changes the hearts. He writes the commandments in our fleshly hearts for us to obey them... We CANNOT circumsize our own hearts, this is something that comes from God.. you just wake up one day and realize- this sin I'm living in doesnt work...we all sin and will continue to until Christ changes our bodies.. but when He borns you again, then he starts changing your mind and heart. It has nothing to do with Mormon doctrine or any Organized religon...Jesus is coming back for His spiritual church, not an organized religion!

[@teresapitman1659]

Well, aside from the fact that I don't believe in God or Jesus, this isn't even logical. You say we can't know what is good without experiencing what is bad. Not true. I know rape is bad, for example, and I don't need to experience it to know that, or to know that consensual sexual relationships are good. When you say you can't have sweet without bitter - that isn't true either. Breast milk is very sweet, and babies who are breastfed for many months experience nothing but sweet during that time. They don't need bitter, they are innately drawn to that sweet taste. Sin is really a made-up concept that people use as a weapon against others.

[@MKM508]

I don't have evil thoughts nor do i do evil things.

[@tiff3156]

@@teresapitman1659 how do you know what good is or what evil is? How would you know any of those definitons? How do you know something is up without down? How do you know for sure breastmilk is sweet? Do you know what the definiton of sweet is? Imagine a world with no definitons whatsoever... you probably wouldn't have a brain.

[@tiff3156]

@@teresapitman1659 the definitin of sweet is having the pleasant taste characteristic of sugar or honey; not salty, sour, or bitter... that's assuming you know what not salty ,sour, or bitter is!

[@tiff3156]

@@MKM508 change that word evil to bad... or unpleasant. I'm sure you have never told a lie either. You must be incredibly righteous like the Mormons.

[@annaandre9131]

People believe that God talks to them? American Christianity is so over the top!

[@karenl7791]

Maybe a "freudian slip" when Ballard says when he prays he recommends he gets "quiet and know he IS God". Oops.

[@karenl7791]

LOL Nemo caught the same thing! Note to self: watch the entire episode before commenting.

[@MrPuglove13]

CHAD DAYBELL is what’s WRONG with “personal revelation”. loriVallow is what’s WRONG with personal rvltn.,julieRowe is what’s WRONG w/p.r.,alexCox is what’s WRONG……Moroni-we have a problemo!!

[@melissar2943]

Oaks said "If we get a prompting contrary to the scriptures... then its not of the Holy Ghost" Oh so we are supposed to do polygamy then?

[@michellejean8068]

At the end of your life..... theres a life review. Only you and Your self ....and Council. so dont let anyones actions or gossip take you away from what you know and feel ... only you have your testimony...and dont let their experiences take that away. Even this podcast thinks they are helping people. But no proof of others stories. And someo e whos been hurtnay take e ery story as proof that the church sucks and they are leaving cuz everyone says so ....sad.

[@johnsmitty9295]

If you pray to know whether Mormonism is true and you get a warm feeling in your bosom, that answer is from God. If the answer is the Book of Mormon and Mormonism are both cons, you are being deceived by Satan. What silliness. God answered my prayer be saying "don't waste my time with stupid questions."

[@timothykessler3597]

I asked the question on the last episode what these guys believe about God, but I think John makes it clear here that he is really not a Bible believing Christian. He says man is not born with the stain of original sin and that mankind over the centuries is improving. None of this is true of course. I love these videos but am increasingly disappointed their disbelief in Mormonism (justified) is not due to a saving knowledge of the Jesus from the Bible. Still, these videos are instructional in the Mormon farce.

[@michellejean8068]

Why not start the discussion with a prayer. I think bringing in statements from 200 years ago is called mental masterbation. Going back and forth with words written on a page is confusing and unfair . Answers take time . Not like putting an order in at McDonalds. And spreading your hurts making misery loves company. Yup im gone. Going to clean my bathroom and toilet . But i hope those people looking for answers say their prayers and get all their questions answered. A great gift is our free will choice.

[@slconley]

The spirit only works with yes no answers 😂

[@rebeccaking4493]

Always love listening to this group of three musketeers! Whoops! That's a bit too Jeffrey R Holland-ish, right? 🤣So I'm wondering if, when some of you ask "what would Jesus do?" or talk about the bible and quote it...does that mean you believe the bible to be the words of Jesus? At least the New Testament? Do we not agree that nothing in there was written down until almost 100 years after the death of a man who might or might not have been more than just a man? And how logical is that? And are we overlooking that the writings have been manipulated and massaged through millennia? I put that entire book into the same category as the Book of Mormon, D&C, Pearl of Great Price and every word out of the LDS leaders' mouths. Fiction!

[@damonm3]

The problem? What do you mean? When narcissistic men say god came down to him personally to tell him that he needs his help. You can’t make this stuff up.. we’ll unless… 😂🍻. And it’s a well played banjo. Not the first or last time this will happen. They’ve rebranded confirmation bias as “personal revelation”. It’s this simple. There’s no other way than the “good feeling, or telling yourself in your own head”.

[@shellhill3142]

Listening to you I'm recognizing that you're taking what was said then putting an extra spin on it or catastrophizing it. For example. A member says your parents got that Revelation from the wrong source. And then you quote that member as saying your parents got that from Satan. That is dishonest. You're saying the church controls me. I see it as a church has the standard they would like to help the members live by. I have seen countless examples of bishops either be horrible or incredibly kind and compassionate. It is the individual and how they interpret or implement what they think is taught that can become controlling. Church leaders have constantly spoke out against abuse and control. I have stories of myself pushing back against misguided members even leaders and setting them straight on What the Gospel of Jesus Christ actually encourages.

[@Fromtheburg]

Personal revelation sounds like anyone can be an apostle??