Revelations after Joseph Smith | Ep. 1749 | LDS Discussions Ep. 38

Today we discuss several problematic "revelations" by LDS prophets that succeeded Joseph Smith. These include:
- John Taylor's 1886 revelation on the continuation of polygamy.
- The multiple "manifestos" allegedly ending the practice of polygamy (but not really).
- The lifting of the 1978 priesthood and temple ban against Mormons of African descent.
- Changes to the LDS temple ceremony over the years.
- Russell M. Nelson's condemnation of the use of the "Mormon" identity after Gordon B. Hinckley and Thomas S. Monson's strong support of the "Mormon" identity.
- The 2015 LGBTQ Exclusion policy, and the subsequent 2019 reversal of the policy/doctrine.
- The Mark Hofmann forgeries.
LDS Discussion Essay: www.mormonstories.org/wp-admi...
Episode Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/podcast...
LDS Discussions Series on Revelation in Mormonism: • LDS Revelations, Past ...
LDS Discussions Playlist: • Joseph Smith and Treas...
00:00:00 Intro & recap
00:04:00 Prophetic fallibility beyond Joseph Smith in Church History
00:11:15 Wendy Nelson accidentally explains how “revelation” really works
00:15:30 Hesitance from subsequent prophets to take on the title of “prophet”
00:23:40 John Taylor’s 1886 Revelation on Polygamy
00:30:30 Implications of John Taylor’s 1886 Revelation on Polygamy
00:35:00 The Lifting of the Priesthood Ban
00:39:00 How the Lifting of the Priesthood Ban Happened
00:46:15 Takeaways from the Lifting of the Priesthood Ban and Revelation
00:54:30 Masonry background
01:00:15 Implications of Changes to the Temple Ceremony
01:03:30 Russel M Nelson and the Use of ‘Mormon’
01:09:15 GBH vs Nelson clip
01:17:45 The Mormon Church’s “I’m a Mormon” Campaign
01:24:30 The “Meet the Mormons” campaign
01:32:00 The 2015 “Policy of Exclusion” for LGBT members and their kids
01:44:00 Clip-How Russel Nelson Described the 2015 on LGBT Members
01:51:45 Compare Nelson’s 2016 Statement to the 2019 Reversal
01:56:30 A Picture is Worth a Thousand Words…
02:05:00 Lack of Discernment Among Mormon Prophets, Seers, and Revelators
02:07:15 Joseph Smith & the Kinderhook Plates
02:10:15 The Mark Hofmann Forgeries
02:13:30 What the Hofmann Episode Tells Us About Discernment
02:19:45 A Picture is Worth a Thousand Words… Again
02:22:00 The Watering Down of Revelation
02:31:45 Fly Me to The Moon
02:34:00 This is Certainly Not Joseph Smith’s Idea of Revelation Anymore
02:36:15 Revisiting Wendy’s quote
LDS Discussions Full Playlist: • LDS Discussions - An E...
ABOUT US:
Mormon Stories Podcast is the longest-running and most successful podcast in Mormonism - hosted by Dr. John Dehlin. At Mormon Stories we explore, celebrate, and challenge Mormon culture through in-depth stories told by members and former members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We also occasionally interview scholars, authors, LDS apologists, and other professionals. Our overall mission is to: 1) Facilitate informed consent amongst LDS Church members, investigators, and non-members regarding Mormon history, doctrine, and theology, 2) Support Mormons (and members of other high-demand religions) who are experiencing a religious faith crisis, and 3) Promote healing, growth and community for those who choose to leave the LDS Church or other high demand religions.
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[@manchitas3531]

All I say is. I am sorry I converted so many during my mission. I too was blindfolded and did not know better. May you all find freedom of thought without fear, and peace

[@chrismiddleton4733]

We're all victims of the indoctrination and brainwashing. You did what you thought was right. The church is in the wrong, not you.

[@Dutchess0909]

❤

[@oakemaka]

I have thought about this as well. I think of how many poor people I converted are paying tithing because they believe God wants them to.

[@hopeinHim5160]

♥️🌹

[@hopeinHim5160]

@@oakemaka 🌹♥️

[@rebeccasirrine947]

It is an absolute truth of Mormonism that, once a man becomes the prophet, his pet peeves immediately become "the mind and will of the Lord for His people."

[@LeeThatcherlcthatch]

Rebrand the Mormons

[@freedomandcoffee]

wow... who is creating who in his own image, eh?

[@jamesleverett6802]

No one becomes a prophet. A true prophet is born having visions at an early age.

[@freedomandcoffee]

@@jamesleverett6802 um ok. how come all of the "prophets" of the LDS church haven't added any new revelation in decades? Why do they have agendas that aren't ordained by God until they become the prophet? Why aren't they called a prophet until the previous prophet dies?

[@jamesleverett6802]

@@freedomandcoffee that's just the order of things I on the other hand have had many Revelations over the years including the church coming under attack and the end of home teaching

[@gracebe235]

The whole changing the name of what we were all called; Mormons, or the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in my opinion, was just ‘rebranding’, because the term ‘Mormon’ was beginning to take on negative connotations. And the attitude that was involved by making members say the mouthful version, was akin to controlling how we spoke, as well as our underwear, etc. When my sister started chastising me in an overly pious way, for not saying the mouthful version, that pissed me off. It was just rebranding! Good grief! I was tired of playing ‘the game’! When I finally found out about the Gospel Topics Essays, horrible things written in the Journals of Discourses, the CES Letter….I was glad to find out the truth and be done with the b.s.!

[@andrewshakespeare2691]

This happened when I was all but inactive. I still attended but spent most of the Sunday meetings sitting in the foyer scrolling social media, thinking of all the pleasant things I could be doing instead. I asked in Elders Quorum what difference it made. Of course, I got the "when the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done." I said "That's the kind of reasoning that resulted in the Mountain Meadows massacre." Silence Finally, the EQ president said "Anyway, let's hear the lesson..."

[@gracebe235]

@@andrewshakespeare2691…..Yeah, I’m familiar with their ‘tactics’. If they don’t like what you are saying, they will just ignore you. If you are asking an honest question, not trying to be a smart alec, I have still received the ‘silent treatment’. Example; In Relief Society, we were being given a lesson where the teacher was talking about the ‘abomination of desolation’…..I sincerely asked; “Who or what is this abomination of desolation?” She just looked at me, then looked away, and went back to her lesson as if I never raised my hand and said anything! I found that EXTREMELY RUDE. If she didn’t know, then she should have just said so! But to just rudely ignore an honest and sincere question, was uncalled for! Ignoring others and gaslighting, are some of the tactics that church members are aces at. The ignoring tactic is used as a means of imposing their superiority over you….that you/your question is not important enough to justify it with any answer. Your answer to the prophet speaks/thinkings done, was PERFECT! Lol!

[@hopeinHim5160]

Russell Nelson is avoiding the Joseph Smith King Follet Discourse. But He cannot pretend Joseph did not prophecy it, and still call him a true prophet. This is why he wants to be called Christian instead of Mormon. They follow a different Jesus. This Jesus is evident in their Temple theology.

[@andrewshakespeare2691]

@hopeinHim5160 Mormon Jesus, it must be said, is a very pissed off dude! Forever threatening to destroy people if they don't do as they're told. He could use a course in motivational psychology!

[@hopeinHim5160]

@@andrewshakespeare2691 Mormon Jesus is a cheep knockoff. The real Biblical Historical Jesus Christ healed me after l was so terribly broken after the sexual abuse, church 's failure to do anything about it, family shunning, ...I really fell apart. I had no idea how amazing and glorious Jesus really was. He healed my soul. Mormonism is a total cult. I just read the Bible . Blessings to you. I wish you all the best. 🌹🎉💕🫶🕊️

[@blueridding]

This is exactly why I left. I struggled for years with my conscience contradicting the church. The more I realized that the church changes stuff through the years, I had to ask myself: How would I feel if I sacrificed my conscience for something that the church would later reverse or abandon? For a while a rationalized that God would reward me for my obedience even if I was lead astray by the church. At some point, that wasn’t enough. God gave me a mind of my own and a sense of right and wrong and I believe God expects me to use it and not use obedience or covenant keeping as an excuse

[@mikemorris4714]

So what religion did you join that never changes? Just curious what the real true church is? I'm betting none.

[@neilssterling5122]

Good on you.

[@kentpatriot4062]

It's a "Living Church." Would you prefer a church incapable of self-examination? Prayer itself is a trait of an on-going, living, evolving (no double-entendre intended), Church. Each individual's relationship with God and Christ grows and changes over time. Frankly, this notion that religious laws ought to be written stone and can never change is silly. That's not to say that eternal truths don't exist. Christ is our Brother. God is Love. But also, Christ lives! Every prayer is an on-going conversation with our Heavenly Father.

[@rachelhansen2417]

I just left, and finally started listening to “anti” podcasts like this. You bring me so much more peace and answers than I ever found before.

[@markmeyer3017]

I was raised Mormon and I was so happy to leave the Mormon church as soon as I could, when I was 24 years old. A completely false church. Glad to be out.

[@andrewshakespeare2691]

Yes. The brilliance of this channel is to present all the arguments together in a massive, three-hour blast. Approaching things on an individual basis leaves room for doubt. But this crescendo of evidence, episode after episode, is devastating! There is simply no response to the sheer weight of problems

[@personofinterest8731]

My letter releasing me as a member of the LDS church is dated the 26th November 2015. I'd had enough.

[@Electricalwizard]

Beat ya both. 2008!

[@Sunset-chaser777]

Happy Thanksgiving 🤣

[@MamaSea888]

Wait, you can get out?

[@personofinterest8731]

@@MamaSea888 lol yes, but you can't leave it alone!👈😁

[@touretteslife]

I’m expecting my letter to arrive any day now. I wish I had broken away sooner but better late than never right?😊

[@kerryholyoak5720]

Assuming that prior teachings to deny priesthood to black members was true, why didn’t the leaders realize that Brazil had plenty of black people and black members ? And why would they even allow a temple to be discussed for Brazil if the priesthood ban was correct doctrine ? Then as now, leaders were clueless about anything outside their ivory tower in SLC !

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Procrastination. Nervousness. Confusion. As mentioned, some of them, led by Hugh B. Brown anticipated the problems and tried to "fix" the doctrine well ahead of any crisis. Others didn't think anything needed fixing. So they kicked the can down the road and decided to put it off until it couldn't be put off any longer. No sense in giving the fake priesthood and fake temple blessings to "unworthy" people any sooner than absolutely necessary.

[@hopeinHim5160]

Mormon Church Research this thing. Manmade religion, inconsistent philosophies of men. Freemasons (right there is something that must be researched! Not Christian!) Racist. Doctrines, Change according to tax exempt statice, and Political correctness. Will be Ever changing. Stands on shifting sand. False prophets . Joseph Smith the occultist. 😨 Run from it. Fly away free!! Run to the True Biblical Historical Jesus Who Has the Power to Save! Here isis a true statement. God does Not change or lie! Blessings to you.🌹♥️🕊️

[@hlnbee]

I was told as a teen that Jesus literally met with the church leaders in the temple every Thursday!

[@pattykake7195]

More rubbish propaganda from mormoncorp….🤥😡🤥

[@geen6071]

Me too!

[@alexlintu26]

Just with them right, it must be special spirit Jesus😂

[@helenr4300]

Only on a Thursday? ( as a never mo I wonder if God was busy on Wed as that is when the Jehovah's Witnesses governing body meet; not sure when God meets with the Pope, and then all those protestants, inc the individual leaders of independent churches, or maybe they just get once a month?)

[@carlenepalmer3181]

I was never told that.... Maybe wishful thinking.

[@AT_ID]

The church would never face backlash if they focused on making people’s lives materially better. The focus on controlling personal behavior and choices will trip them up every time.

[@loubylou1899]

My goodness, the name of the church!!! Any god that would be offended by the name of the book reserved for the last days (allegedly). The word Mormon became a swear word in my parents house after this despite 40+ years of being proud of this identity. I just wondered when was the last time my parents actually had a thought of their own and why the spirit hadn't clued them in before the prophet mentioned it.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

My Mormon relatives are the same way. They're always just waiting for the next download from the "General Authorities" to tell them what they should think and do today, even if it's 180 degrees opposite of what they thought they were supposed to think and do yesterday. It should actually be renamed as the "Church of Simon Says" because that's the game that they're actually playing.

[@TheShodan92]

It's a open ended type of belief system based around everything the church leaders tell them. Looking at it objectively anyone could see how religion can influence it's followers to be completely conforming to the leaders instructions. The B.I.T.E model is greatly in force on it's members. I wonder what members will now call "The Book of Mormon" now?.

[@yvonnetitus8620]

Mormon Stories came to my non-Mormon attention a couple of months ago and prompted me to do a deep dive of understanding what is going on with those in this church. It has enhanced my compassion and empathy for those who were born into or converted into this high demand religious organization. The truth of the biblical Gospel is really quite simple in that the biblical Jesus fully atoned for my sin with nothing on my part makes a difference for my salvation. My heart goes out to those who are trapped.

[@hollayevladimiroff131]

Me too!!

[@yvonnetitus8620]

There is nothing more satisfying than having a relationship with Jesus Christ of the Bible. The universe may be indifferent to my existence, but I know my Creator and Savior cares. I hope you, LongJourneys, one day soon sees the glory in Jesus.

[@rp7983]

The comment about the church not being able to buy a revelation for $200 billion made me laugh out loud. I enjoyed this episode you guys hit a lot of good points nobody talks about.

[@kentpatriot4062]

They talk about things nobody talks about because they're making stuff up. And your laughter is disrespectful. To God! I guess it's true that there are people who will deny Christ while standing in His presence.

[@rp7983]

​@@kentpatriot4062 If you truly knew God, you wouldn't be LDS. Acts 7:48-50 God does not dwell in temples made by man. Romans 1:17 righteousness is given by faith alone and not by any works. Hebrews 9:9-10, 14 no ordinances and rituals cleanse you of your sins or make you righteous before God. Only through Christ and his atonement. Romans 3:28 we are justified (redeemed) by faith alone and not by any works of our own doing. Job 41:11 God owing us any kind of due for our works is absurd when God has created everything. Hebrews 1:1-3 Christ is the final revelation. The age of the prophets is over now that we have received the very same Spirit the prophets of old had and Christ has manifested himself. James 2 talks about progressive sanctification; i.e. behavior change after you have been redeemed. James 2 does not refer to positional sanctification; i.e. the very act of receiving salvation, which is done only by faith "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness" (see Romans 1:17). Genesis 3 Adam and Eve's sin was disobeying God by eating of the fruit of the tree of knowing good and evil. However, at the heart of that sin was Adam and Eve believing that they could come to know what is good and evil without God and doing so on their own. Thinking that any kind of act, ritual, ordinance, works, behavior, etc. brings upon some portion of your redemption is fundamentally committing the same sin believing you are good enough by yourself to obtain a portion of your recovery. Additionally, believing baptism or any other kind of ordinance is required for salvation has the implication that Christ's atonement wasn't good enough or complete and that an act or ritual is required to complete the sacrifice. Luke 17:10 God does not owe you any due for your works or acts that you have done. Redemption is from grace and faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). The definition of grace is a gift and a benefit. If redemption is brought upon by any act or ordinance, then it would be considered a due, which would make grace cease to be grace. Luke 17:20-21 Kingdom of God/kingdom of heaven is not a destination or a place. Kingdom of God is a state of being and realm that is around us that only believers can see. Keep this in mind before you start throwing out LDS apologetic versus, like John 3:5, that grossly misinterpret the word of God. The word of God bears the ultimate mark and work of the Spirit. Doubting the accuracy of the Bible doubts the ability for God to preserve his truth. I would recommend reading "Scribes and Scripture" by John D. Meade and Peter J. Gurry. Additionally, I would read "After Acts" by Bryan Litfin to understand the intensity people have put into making the Bible as accurate as possible. Better yet, toss out your KJV and use and ESV study Bible so you can understand all the context. If you are worried about translation, then get a reverse-interlinear Greek to English New Testament ESV Bible and go directly its original form. Ask Chat GPT about the original Hebrew and Greek and walk you through the direct translation of a verse you are looking at.

[@elizabethrose9364]

It’s interesting to me about the veiling of my face is now no longer used. We were married in Temple in 1969. I have always told my husband, he is not allowed to put that veil over my face in the casket when I die or I would come back and haunt him. I told him I, and any woman,had every right to look on God’s face unveiled as any man did. And just think! I don’t have to worry any more if my husband “forgets”. 😇Also, When I graduated from Primary, we had to name the 13 temples that existed at the time.

[@augustoarsenio9032]

I was just wandering if it was Christ himself who inspired the "apostles"to hide the $32billions😮

[@Blue-Mondays]

I cannot express strongly enough how much I enjoyed the Hinkley/Nelson video and this entire episode has been amongst my favorites. Thank you all!

[@barbaralael5092]

This is so eye opening. It's very healing. I left the Church in the 1990s. I have never met anyone besides me an ex member who left the Church. I felt lucky that I was a convert (1974)... But in the Church I was always feeling 2nd class. Just by being a convert instead of being a Lifer!

[@gracebe235]

Don’t worry…..I seriously doubt that you would have felt anymore special, had you been ‘born in the Covenant’. I was born in the Covenant, and I always felt like I was looked down on or something, in every Ward I attended throughout my life. I don’t know if my father having darker skin with jet black hair (he was part Native American), had anything to do with it or not. But I always felt like I was ‘second class’, or didn’t know the secret handshake 🫤, or whatever. Even after I went through the Temple with my late husband, I was especially ‘regarded’, after he died, as now I was attending church alone….and the married women suddenly treated me differently. Um, I didn’t have any interest in their husbands, but they sure acted like an insecure, unfriendly bunch after my husband died. Any friendliness that was feigned in the church, seemed very forced and false. I never made any friends there. And whenever I tried to, they quickly joined cliques of other women. It was weird. They acted like there was only so much friendliness to go around. This was foreign to someone who grew up having slumber parties with all sorts of races when I was growing up. I actually enjoyed people who were ‘different’, and finding out what they were all about. But in the LDS church? Being different would get you shunned, if it wasn’t a difference that they all embraced, that is.

[@kathydahlstrom8193]

Discernment! Yes! I’ve had a lot of therapy to undo that damage. Lived experience. I stayed in an abusive marriage, was homeless and starved (my husband was against food stamps and my bishop took us off the food program without explanation) because of my bishop’s direction and my belief that he had revelation about me. One ridiculous highlight was when I’m crying in the bishops office about how my husband was treating our toddler twins. The bishop pointedly asked me if I was teaching them to pray. Pray?!?! They were babies who could barely talk!! But like I had many times, I left his office believing it was my fault. I’ve been out 30 years now.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

I've heard from old Mormons (people in their eighties and nineties now), that back in the 1950s and 1960s, there were actually faith-promoting stories about the power of discernment of church leaders and temple workers with regard to keeping people out of the temple who did not even realize that they had some African ancestry. It would go something like a person is trying to get a temple recommend or has a recommend and is trying to enter the temple only to be confronted by a leader who gets a prompting that the person has the blood of Cain. The person can't believe it, but does some genealogical research and finds out that indeed they have an ancestor who was black. At that point, people go "ooooh" and "aaaaah". Not because they're cringing and shocked by how stupid the story is, but because they're so impressed by how the story illustrates the priesthood power of discernment. The additional point that I got from that story was that prior to 1978, the church's policy was a "not one drop of prohibited blood" policy. It didn't matter if someone LOOKED "white and delightsome" if they had a great, great, great grandmother who was of mixed race, then...sorry...no temple or priesthood. But then fast forward to the 1970s and Brazil is the fastest growing area for the church and the leaders in SLC are forced to realize that in all likelihood nearly all of the Brazilian priesthood leaders have mixed-race ancestry, but the church has a century of policy, revelation and belief that does not allow for such people to hold the priesthood and leadership positions. Something obviously had to go.

[@irmavincent9546]

I met the Mormon church in 1975 and black people were not accepted because they said the became from evil. I really hate this church.

[@fatemeetsluck]

Yep. Kinda odd how their "discernment" can somehow sniff out a now debunked concept of race yet they can't seem to discern abusive narcissists or predators.

[@neilssterling5122]

Brazilian here. Mormons gained a lot of terrain over the last 2 decades. They are nearly everywhere. I often see Mormons walking around the streets of my city, which is not that big and even more often I meet someone who's Mormon. This is quite puzzling.

[@proffernot5485]

MIke: "The greatest source of revelation is outside pressure." Bingo.

[@dorothybatton9544]

You all do an amazing job! Wish I had known you 48 years ago. Thankfully it’s never too late!

[@alexandertwol]

The video between Nelson and Hinckley is so incredibly funny. I need that link so I can share it everywhere.

[@extremepayne]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/aJ2ugqWPiqpmr8U

[@iamjustsaying1]

The lack of priesthood leaders' power of discernment caused me to follow extremely poor counsel, that led to PTSD. It's dangerous!

[@125082durant]

I've grown up around lots of different religions and have attended study groups with LDS. I've always thought good in many religions but the more I learn about the "prophets" "bishops" and leaders the more I see horrible lies. I feel they will one day be judged very harshly for the things they are doing. James 3:1

[@markkrispin6944]

All of the Mormon cult leaders will burn in Hell

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

@@markkrispin6944 They'll probably just end up in a "Mormons only" section of heaven, where all of their fantasies about heaven will be just as they imagined...in other words...hell. Old higher ranking guys with beards chasing all the women around to collect in their harems, while the lower ranking guys, with no beards, lose their wives to the higher ranking guys, finding out that some "sealings" trump other sealings. And the whole time this is going on, a really low-energy choir of garment-wearing angels will be singing hymns that sound like funeral dirges. It will be what the Mormons always hoped for, with jello salad and 3-day-old potato casserole for everyone. And all the men will have to wear white shirts and neckties forever and ever. For entertainment, Nelson and Hinckley will face off in cage fights on Thursday nights. "You're a #@! Mormon, I tell ya!" "No, I'm not! You're a walking victory for Satan!" "Oh, yeah! What about your mother and those combat boots she wears?"

[@llamamama2910]

Bishops are people with regular jobs that are called for usually about 4-9 years and NOT PAID. Usually good family men, didn’t seek out power or authority and so humble-some of them have been bad. What specifically have the bishops you are familiar with done that deserves judgement?

[@atlasthestars3077]

​@@llamamama2910 Wonferful example of cognitive dissonance right here

[@sanachristian4577]

My late husband and I were with President Kimball in his suite at Kahuku Turtle Bay Hotel on Oahu the day after the priesthood revelation. I told him there’s dancing in the streets for the lifting of the ban. He looked me in the eye and said that it was not as intense as the other revelations he was getting. And he told us what it was. He was terribly burdened by what he’d been told. After our visit, the counselors came into the room and we all hung out with them till they had to go to their lunch appointment. We all slowly made our way down to the lobby and left together.

[@jordangrimes2820]

What other intense revelations was he getting?

[@lauraalmiron2749]

Hello: I’m a former SDA. Discovering that Ellen H White is as false as Smith has been at te same time traumatic and liberating. One thing I discover when taking off the Church and the Prophetess glasses I discover that we do not need any Prophet telling us what to do or shaping our Spiritual experience. Paul the Apostle said in Hebrews 1 that in ancient times God Spoke through Prophets but now He speaks through his Son. And that same son said to his disciples that the Holy Spirit would Guido us and reveal his truths and words. Smith, White and several others false Prophets emerged at the same time in history when fairy tales were very popular and there was much witchcraft and communication with spirits. So I think that God has made us free from error.

[@peachysparkles]

Nemo's final words-I have been wondering that since I was a child. Joseph Smith was constantly revealing new and important things about the kingdom of God but prophets since then haven't revealed anything new (except polygamy which I don't believe in) and just basically build new temples and give sermons and I've always wondered why. If this is supposed to be the same church then why is it so different from Joseph Smith's time? After researching about Brigham Young and seeing he gave 2 different stories for how he became the prophet and also seeing that Pres. Joseph F. Smith straight up said in the Reed Smoot trials that prophets after Joseph were NOT called by revelation I was like "Well there you go.... there not true prophets." If anyone is wondering about my sources for what I've said, I learned these facts from the official church historical archives on the BYU website, the official church website, and the church's official website for Wilford Woodruff's journal.

[@freedomandcoffee]

My goodness. Nelson is insufferable, isn't he? That mashup of the two "dueling" prophets over the word Mormon is CLASSIC.

[@danp1969]

Nemo nailed it. If a personal opinion is not a revelation, then it is a philosophy of man. If used with scripture it is a philosophy of man mingled with scripture.

[@eutenhoproblemas]

the whole thing about the church name sounds a lot like language control, which tracks with all the high demand group aspects the church has exhibited since the very beginning

[@HaydenEvanoff]

LDS is SOOO careful with semantics. It’s not reformed, it’s restored. It’s not marriage, it’s seals. It’s not false prophecy, it’s human error. It’s not a mere feeling, it’s a burning in my bosom. And now.. I’m not a Mormon, I’m LDS.

[@stevenbolin7688]

Thanks John for the content, just watched BYP' s response to Ballards " don't you dare come home early to the Elders, they are hemorrhaging people for years now and are terrified of the loss of money, which they definitely no longer need. All members could walk away and they're still going to survive, it's just disgusting greed.

[@psychopompp]

Where is this Ballard talk you reference?

[@rtwindsor]

I think you meant Jeffrey R. Holland’s talk to missionaires, but I could be mistaken.

[@stevenbolin7688]

@@rtwindsor right on, I just didn't redact the message, I did see that video though

[@susanaanderson3150]

You guys are amazing together. I love the series, the dinamic between you 3. The series are super informative and I have learned a lot. Thank you, gracias.

[@mormonstories]

Awesome! Thank you!

[@TheSundayParty1]

Had an Ex General Authority James J Hamula tell me that he had the gift of discernment and could read my heart just by my handshake. In another crazy turn of events I was in in a private interview with him (I believe it was a rebuking set up by my mission president for questioning his direction on my lack of faith in street contacting) He essentially told me that it was not our job to question authority or leaders. That I needed to consecrate my heart more unto god. Spent to the rest of my mission viewing myself as a failure. Lots of turmoil lol

[@littlezentz]

Discernment (IMO) isn't a gift of the Holy Spirit, but a skill we can all learn as we learn from the con artists and manipulators we used to be controlled by, as we leave that crap behind. Congratulations you are a discerning person, don't ever forget your super powers. I am assuming you are free now.

[@NightSkySymbol]

Keep doing what you are doing. ❤

[@ThomasALeavitt]

One of the best episodes ever!!

[@rebeccaking4493]

This is smack on, gentlemen! Thank you so very, very much!!!

[@kacycatartist]

Strike at the Heart! Yes, fatal blow!!!! Great post - Thank you gentlemen❣️

[@sarahlundquist3853]

Thank you! Thank you! LOVE this discussion ❤

[@andreadiamond7115]

Awesome content and delivery gentlemen and crew. Never-mo Atheist here. ✌🏼❤️

[@GavinusMaximusMaster]

What brings you here?

[@mikeepperson4139]

Absolutely brilliant! Well done brethren!

[@touretteslife]

Brilliant job guys. Thanks for sharing.

[@PackerGirl]

Incredible as always! ❤

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

This was fantastic guys!!!!

[@pattykake7195]

Nearly as good as you Prof….😁

[@markkrispin6944]

​@@pattykake7195 I agree my dear❤

[@jonipitcher7185]

I love the 3 of you guys together. Nemo is funny. He should do exmormon stand up!

[@shches8480]

What Nelson's stance on the proper name of the Church fails to consider is this: just because you name your Church after Jesus Christ, doesn't mean your Church embodies any of his values or teachings.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Dueling prophets. I love it! Combining it with the "Dueling Banjos" music would be great. Hinckley: People are always going to use the "Mormon" nickname because two syllables are practical. Demanding that people (especially non-Mormons) always tire themselves out trying to say all 11 syllables of the church's official name anytime they want to say something about Mormons is just foolish. So I will invest in the "Mormon" brand to make it as positive as possible. Monson: I love what my mentor and predecessor, Hinckley, has done in building and improving the value of the "Mormon" brand. I will continue it. Nelson: My predecessors are dead and I'm in charge now. They ignored my pet peeve about the nickname "Mormon" when they were my bosses. Now I spit on their graves and imply that they were tools of the Devil...because now I can. Outliving your enemies can make a difference. This is Jesus's church, dammit! Can't you tell by the way I act and speak?? Mormon Tabernacle Choir: Who are we now?

[@tracygittins6343]

My favorite old-timey detail from endowments past: Satan had a CHOIR that sang protestant hymns.

[@realhealthrealwealth]

LOVE ❤️ your new trailer 😍

[@steph744]

always love the mike episodes

[@MsCaterific]

🧡 Such a fantastic episode.

[@danp1969]

The Church does not really claim to have a value proposition. It has an OBLIGATION proposition. You are obligated to be LDS and you are promised happiness in return. If you are not happy it is your fault, not the Church's. Heads the Church wins, tails you lose.

[@t.thompson9977]

Great episode!

[@davidwilson1401]

“….in 1978 God changed his mind about black people!” Ok, quoting the musical “Book of Mormon” is a low-hanging fruit. The “revelation” which was “coincidental” to the opening of a temple in Brazil reminds me of a quote from former Congressman Barber Conable: “Hell hath no fury like a vested interest masquerading as a moral principle.”

[@drakelazerus]

"The secret of masonry is to keep a secret" Joseph Smith

[@tawnyachristensen7310]

Great podcast!

[@brennonbehrmann1215]

I'll always remember the moment on my mission when we were knocking on doors (and this is when Monson was still prophet) and this guy answered and we brought up prophets and this guy asked “What is the current revelation that your prophet said and it came true?” and I was stumped. I had nothing. So when he slammed the door in my face my companion turned to me and said “Prophet London surely gave a revelation. Why didn't you say anything?” I responded with “I'm sorry I could not think of a single thing.” From that moment on my faith in modern prophets was shaky until it crumbled and I left.

[@sheliabryant3997]

So glad to see Mike back & hope doing well. Certainly doing wonderfully at your "great commission!" Thank you, John, for hosting & encouraging these endeavours. My "contributions," I fear are nil except to be grateful to all for all. Don't mean to be penur- ious interloper. Could never repay in kind or other the great good you have done. Hope the "fates" make it up to you. God bless 🌈

[@sophronia5991]

Great episode!!!!

[@kentthalman4459]

Great answers for questions I had as a believer

[@michellejean8068]

Over the 30 years of becoming a member. There was a few incidences that my involvement in the church could have caused me great financial and personal loss. I agreed to meet with them 3 different times. One was over a business deal. 25 years ago. The customer 350,000 to me pulled his business back. Over the next 3 weeks we had weekly discussion. At the end of our meeting . The person came with tears in his eyes and asked for my forgiveness...When people would mock me and wanted to prove how wrong I was , I'd welcome the discussion. In all cases they apologized and the Spirit proved that Everyone has to come to their own testimony ..in their own time.

[@lincstar182]

Loved the Rock!ing Chair Hat, Dr. Dehlin. Where do I get one, like right now :)?

[@fabulous_finn7810]

This is a fantastic episode. It is important to discuss how prophets post-Joseph Smith in the Brighamite church have failed their members with bad faith "revelations". As someone who has questioned their sexuality until recently finally coming to terms with being straight (I had bisexual tendencies but just did not feel comfortable in a relationship with a man recently) the 2015/16 policy hurt me deeply. My lesbian sister lost her faith as she really began to understand how "revelation" worked. This is a corrupt and hurtful organization, and yall do a fantastic job of exposing people to the lies of the Mormon church.

[@lucillepryor808]

In addition to the Brazilian temple, there was also discrimination with the BYU football team. They did not allow black athletes and other teams did not want to play with them.

[@erpthompsonqueen9130]

Thank you. Watching from Alaska.

[@suthatheplee2777]

Mormon = Mor-Mon-ey 😮

[@hollayevladimiroff131]

Thank you!!!

[@HarveyDroke]

Best one yet

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

The weirdest thing about the whole Mormon temple template is that, substantively, there is no justification whatsoever for the contents of the temple rituals, ordinances, doctrines and teachings to be secret/sacred and protected by a paywall (i.e. only recommend-worthy tithepayers allowed). None whatsoever. Substantively, in terms of doctrine and teachings, there is NOTHING in the temple that should be considered more holy and sacred than the weekly "sacrament" segment of ordinary, open-to-all standard Mormon worship services on Sundays. There is no special super-secret and sacred doctrine that can't be found in Mormon scriptures. Nothing more sacred than the regular, open-to-all baptisms, child blessings and so on. Doctrinally and substantively, nobody in the church can explain why attendance at temple weddings should be off limits to anyone who is not a full tithepaying member of the church. They'll just parrot the empty statement that "it's soooo sacred"...apparently, not realizing that such statement explains literally nothing. (Of course, the real reason is probably because the original endowment and wedding ordinances of the Mormon temples were part and parcel of the SECRET practice of plural marriage. That's the reason for the secrecy. That's the reason for the bloody penalty oaths, whereby participants pledged that they understood that they should be killed as punishment for revealing the secret plural marriages and club passwords. And it was to protect Joseph Smith's monopoly on licensing plural marriages. "Accept no substitutes! Only plural marriages authorized by God, through Joseph Smith, are free of sin!")

[@function0077]

Did Gordon Hinkley not realize that D&C 132 was still part of his scriptures?

[@DirtmopAZ]

Fuck, man, I love your new trailer. I’ve been watching Mormon Stories since 2017, and this gets me more pumped than ever!

[@elwren75]

2:13:35 Plus, Dallin H. Oakes had been a Utah Supreme Court Justice. You’d have thought his power of discernment would have developed in the role as Officer of the Court and Justice. You’d think that as a lawyer he would have been able to detect evil. Or maybe lawyers are good at “not knowing” just to survive in their careers

[@thecounterfeitchosen2238]

Mike is great! He doesn’t pander to these false prophets

[@monus782]

54:49 I guess our equivalent as Catholics were the changes made to the usual Sunday Mass ritual that mainly changed it from Latin to the vernacular after the Second Vatican Council in the 1960’s, the movement that was pretty close to being the FLDS equivalent that I was part of came from people who opposed those changes and some of them ended up rejecting the Vatican’s authority and got excommunicated as a result and are considered to be “schismatic” (the community I was part of was one of the approved ones). I remember watching a video made by a faithful LDS member explaining the temple rites and architecture and from what I understood it’s supposed to be based on the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem, that’s actually what the Catholic liturgy is also supposed to be based on to some extend and this was sort of the justification I was given why we had a priesthood in the first place and why did our churches had to look so fancy so that was another interesting parallel.

[@RespekfulFungus]

The Bible tells us if a prophecy is wrong, it didn’t come from a true prophet. We’re not talking about a refusal or mistake here, if you’re prophecy is untrue…it wasn’t prophecy to begin with.

[@katphyre]

Another great episode. Just the effort you guys go to to prepare this stuff is so appreciated. Thank you.

[@garthhunt7238]

Also, regarding “Dr. King”; this from The NY Times: “A committee of scholars appointed by Boston University concluded today that the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. plagiarized passages in his dissertation for a doctoral degree at the university 36 years ago.” "There is no question," the committee said in a report to the university's provost, "but that Dr. King plagiarized in the dissertation by appropriating material from sources not explicitly credited in notes, or mistakenly credited, or credited generally and at some distance in the text from a close paraphrase or verbatim quotation." Despite its finding, the committee said that "no thought should be given to the revocation of Dr. King's doctoral degree," an action that the panel said would serve no purpose.

[@5783sguitar]

Nemo mentioned a talk by Jeffery R Holland that the "church is here, the world is here" Does anybody know the reference? I'd love to watch it.

[@mormonstories]

@nemothemormon

[@LavaMan60]

GREAT episode!

[@Clintcellington]

Excellent episode!

[@mortenle]

It sounds like Nelson's speech to not consult the internet was an invitation to people not to really study at all, opening the door for single-source misinformation campaigns to follow in 2016 forward.

[@Boo-YouDoYou]

58:03 - I noticed that change also when I last went to the temple. I always found that bit odd when they talked about the loud laughter and then they removed it. I always noticed it before the removal. So it stuck out to me when it wasn't there.

[@doctorquestian]

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. Matthew 7:22

[@doctorquestian]

Matthew 7:15-16 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

[@doctorquestian]

1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

[@JimmyUtahGo]

I grew up in Provo as a 5th generation member I had nearly all this information before my mission. It wasn’t until I witnessed church leadership intentionally hiding and rewriting history that I had to rethink my approach to building my cognitive faith reality. I can steel man both sides of most church arguments. But I can’t make any perspective square.

[@function0077]

This is one of the most savage Mormon Stories episodes I have ever listened to. Dallin Oakes self own was hilarious. What's your vice Dallin?

[@josephhocking4345]

what is with the 'wooping' sounds in the background during Rusty's little speech at 1:45:30 ?

[@shirleybleazard8049]

The proclamation to the church is in the triple set of the book Mormon in the Bible.

[@azstate94]

My husband states the changes come because Heavenly Father knew the world wasn't prepared for the truth. And it is through revelation that these changes occur.

[@TheShodan92]

Changes such as 'the name of the church' , is a good example of the difficulties the leaders have with reconciling issues. It won't matter to what extent the church leaders will go, there is nothing they will say or do that can make any difference to many members who are deeply locked into mormonism. Assuming you've watched the subject matter regarding this by Dr. Dehlin, and a separate one NEMO the Mormon has done, to state "Heavenly Father knew the world wasn't prepared for the truth", is a disingenuous approach to what had been for decades an obvious desire of Russel Nelson to enforce a name of the church. What he did was fulfill a personal desire he had haboured for many years, and eventually use his position as president, with the endorsement of revelation to make it stick. The name "Mormon" had been in place for over a century, then, according to RMN, the Lord suddenly became "offended" by the name. Yes.. RMN did say that "the Lord is offended", he also said, "to use the name Mormon is a victory for satan". Very strong language, far deeper and far more reaching than merely saying Heavenly Father knew the world wasn't prepared for the truth. Aside from your husbands point of view, what do you think?.

[@azstate94]

@zen 101 I believe it's all contrived horse $@!t. I converted because of the immense pressure from him. This is my second marriage and to keep the "peace", I succumbed. Boy, let me tell you... talk about brainwashing starting at a very young age. It's quite disturbing. Needless to say, I no longer attend. He is in callings which SHOULD have people knocking on our door. I once got a call from the bishop's secretary (I think ?) asking to set up an appointment to speak with the bishop in reply to my request to remove my name from church records. When I asked him why I had to speak with him, he couldn't give me a reason. So I said "No, thanks. I don't need to have a conversation with him." I haven't been bothered since. I have only recently been watching these videos. Is there a specific title I should search for the other two you referenced?

[@kevinmorris7224]

I loved the Eminem reference, it made me laugh out loud.🤘

[@jasonanderson02]

John, What is this hat?! I've seen you wear it a couple of times...and I want one! :)

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Logically, Brigham Young's teachings asserting that Adam is THE god that Mormons worship and the ONLY god that Mormons worship...should have been the end of it all. An entire generation of priesthood leaders sustained Brigham Young as the prophet, seer, revelator and president of the church the whole time he was teaching that. How can any subsequent generations of leaders, who trace their "authority" and "priesthood" to that generation, possibly continue to assert that such authority and priesthood has any meaning at all, when it comes from a generation that literally worshiped the wrong god?

[@sedg83]

My understanding of Godwin's Law (sp?) was that you lose the argument for likening your opponent to Hitler, not for bringing up their literal history with Hitler or their actions during the war. It's completely different to say Trump is fascist like Hitler vs. saying the Mormon church has a problematic history in Germany during WW2 when they didn't protect Jewish converts from Hitler and cow toed to him to continue to grow the church in Germany. Those are very very different applications of Hitler: one borders on name-calling, and the other sites actual historical interaction which is quite damning and shouldn't be swept under the rug bcuz Hitler is a bad word now

[@sedg83]

I'd like a special episode on Mormonism's history surrounding WW2, if you could't tell 🤣

[@chasejensen899]

@@sedg83 I remember asking my young men’s president when I was a priest about what would the nazis think of Mormons? He said they would hate the church as much as Jews. Learning about the truth behind the church and the nazis made me sick, but I was still a member at the time and didn’t question the validity of the church. This point still stands out to me even after leaving that they couldn’t just be honest. I would probably still be a member if they didn’t lie so much about their history. I don’t blame my young men’s president though because he was lied to as well.

[@williamwallaceg2627]

Great job and discussion. Thank you for sharing this KZbin video of Hinkley and Nelson battling it out for a name that was changed several times in the beginning of the fake true church

[@AndrielleHillis]

Hey, I don't mean to be pedantic, but there doesn't seem to be an Episode 37. I've looked on the channel, and the last ep I found before this one was "Episode 36: Problematic Patterns in Joseph Smith's Revelations." Please tell me the title of Episode 37.

[@brookesfile]

Are these no longer being added to their own podcast feed?

[@ExmoRaymo]

Imagine if Uncle Russell and the Q15 suddenly were inspired to allow LGTBQ+ full membership privileges just so they could increase sacrament/temple attendance.

[@comstock5800]

Oh they will. Just give it 10-15 years. They are always a decade behind. Plus the Church will love all of that tithing money

[@charlesmendeley9823]

They would alienate many conservative members, so they have to balance their strategy between keeping the youth and keeping the older, tithing paying members.

[@darger3]

I would pay top dollar to see that go down.

[@OuttaMyMind911]

This will likely happen eventually. Might still be a few decades off, but church history opens the way. Polygamy was causing the church too much trouble and Utah wanted to become a state, then came Official Declaration 1. Civil rights had already been won, and the priesthood ban was causing a bad image and slowed growth, then came Official Declaration 2. Officially Declaration 3 may be inevitable.

[@kera9389]

I love johns hat

[@yolandagrabowski6043]

A mormon comes to me and tells not to down talk against Mormonism. I told how my neighbors are acting like mormons. They said they unacknowledge my neighborhood. My former neighbor Dee is his mormon cousin. He's the landlord that rented me my first apartment here.

[@cel2651]

Another fantastic episode. ❤❤ Nemo as well

[@markvonwisco7369]

0:15:30 Brigham Young was the David Miscavige of the LDS Church.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

Yes, but he was actually successful. Scientology will probably not outlive Miscavige.

[@healthfadsfade]

It amazes me that intelligent people with their shit together buy this stuff. I immediately think of the South Park episode that accurately describes the origins of Mormonism, no crazy parody exaggerations needed.