Problematic Patterns in Joseph Smith’s Revelations | Ep. 1734 | LDS Discussions Ep. 36

Today we identify and analyze four problematic patterns in Joseph Smith's "revelations": 1) Using revelations to convince others to submit to his requests, 2) Using revelations to get out of a jam, 3) Changing revelations to fit Joseph Smith’s evolving theologies, and 4) a look at Biblical errors made in Joseph Smith's revelation. Today we are joined by Mike of LDS Discussions and ‪@NEMOTHEMORMON‬.
LDS Discussion Essay on Joseph Smith's Revelations: www.ldsdiscussions.com/revela...
LDS Discussions Series on Revelation in Mormonism: • LDS Revelations, Past ...
Chapters:
00:00:00 Introduction
00:08:50 Using revelation to get others to do things
00:15:20 Joseph’s uses of revelation in polygamy
00:20:00 Joseph Smith’s revelation to Nancy Marinda Hyde
00:27:30 Lucy Walker and Joseph’s command from God to Marry him
00:40:00 The Angel with a drawn sword and Zina Huntington Jacobs
00:53:09 A revelation to fund the Nauvoo house
01:03:25 Nauvoo House revelation comes and gets it wrong
01:05:30 Using revelation to get out of jams
01:05:40 Lost 110 pages
01:09:04 When Oliver Cowdery Wanted to Help Translate the BoM
01:15:48 A Closer Look at the Text D&C 9 a smackdown of Oliver
01:22:40 A revelation when Joseph’s revelations seem poorly written
01:29:18 Hiram Page Gets revelation with a seer stone -and witnesses believe him
01:36:45 Which is it? Gift to TRANSLATE and his gift to receive REVELATIONS
01:39:40 Joseph Smith doesn't want to travel on Rough Waters
01:47:00 Emma Pressures JS on Tobacco Use - Word of Wisdom
01:53:27 Using God’s voice to Convince Emma to Allow Joseph’s Polygamy
02:03:05 Changing revelation to fit JS evolving theologies.
02:11:50 Biblical Errors in revelations
02:12:00 Joseph Smith Makes a Biblical Error in D&C 132
02:15:12 Elias and Elijah in the Kirtland temple
02:19:00 Conclusion
www.mormonstories.org/podcast...
LDS Discussions Playlist: • LDS Discussions - An E...
LDS Discussions Revelation Playlist: • LDS Discussions - An E...
ABOUT US:
Mormon Stories Podcast is the longest-running and most successful podcast in Mormonism - hosted by Dr. John Dehlin. At Mormon Stories we explore, celebrate, and challenge Mormon culture through in-depth stories told by members and former members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We also occasionally interview scholars, authors, LDS apologists, and other professionals. Our overall mission is to: 1) Facilitate informed consent amongst LDS Church members, investigators, and non-members regarding Mormon history, doctrine, and theology, 2) Support Mormons (and members of other high-demand religions) who are experiencing a religious faith crisis, and 3) Promote healing, growth and community for those who choose to leave the LDS Church or other high demand religions.
Mormon Stories Podcast is a product of the Open Stories Foundation - a 501c3 non-profit dedicated to supporting Mormons in religious transition.
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[@sheliabryant3997]

JOHN! Your anger is not extreme! You don't have to keep apologizing for feeling appropriate outrage where/when outrage is appropriate.

[@SaneAsylum]

Either way it's your choice so own who and what you are. You might not yet realize it but the real purpose of life is to reveal you to you so that at the judgement (which is really just a reckoning) you wont gripe about which house the hat sorts you into.

[@madeleineclark283]

Yes, agreed. John Dehlin, at his most angry and caffeinated, is still not as bad as most Mormons 😂

[@LUCACAMPBELL-ny4qt]

@@madeleineclark283 So caffeine is harmful or at the very least makes you angry.

[@mrdinx]

Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Therefore, he was a liar. End of story, zip up your pants.

[@liz3564]

@@LUCACAMPBELL-ny4qt Caffeine keeps you sane! Drinking my Starbucks as we speak. LOL

[@rebuildingmylife400]

Dishonesty is what started the church and dishonesty is what keeps it going.

[@inChristalone1960]

Yes.

[@victoriadixonpence-bv2fu]

And I would add, it's this Extreme Dishonesty that will, at last, bring this Pseudo Religion DOWN!

[@RampidWarthogStudios]

I’m currently in my faith journey with the church and this is deeply concerning. I’m unsure what to believe but I appreciate this video very much. Challenging beliefs is healthy

[@inChristalone1960]

Yes it is. Blessings to you on your courageous journey.

[@RampidWarthogStudios]

@@inChristalone1960 thanks brotha

[@heleneocleary5888]

You’re an utter Gentleman John. Thank you for your company on you tube.

[@inChristalone1960]

@onlyyhwh Respectfully, please, please keep researching. It is a painful process to see all there is to understand about the origins and current dealings of the lds church. Peace.

[@RampidWarthogStudios]

@CHRIST KINGDOM MISSION wow very Christ like. I’m sure he will be proud of all your assumptions you’re without actually know what I’m talking about (typical) and don’t forgot about the hypocrisy you just displayed.

[@jewelbrown7037]

You are right. Every example of the old testament prophets is that God himself took care of their needs. They were fed bread by ravens, told to go live in a cave, or ask a widow to give them bread. Not once did God say "tell people to give you their women, property, money. Even Jesus refused to use his power to benefit himself, even after being starved for 40 days, refusing to change rocks into bread.

[@astromanofficial]

My favorite part was Nemo dying laughing while watching the Monty Python clips.

[@TheShodan92]

I paint houses for a job and get to listen to whole podcasts like this one. Very educational and enlightening. Thankyou John , Nemo and Mike for all your outstanding work.

[@ChrisFBartlett]

Just like Mormon men are taught that the priesthood is for blessing OTHERS, revelation should not be used to tell others to do something for your benefit - like provide you with other men’s wives or a mansion house.

[@kathymunsee6468]

Love you programs always. Could l have an addiction if l can't go to sleep without your program. Love it when Margie's on too. Carry on

[@MultiPetercool]

Lucy Harris: Smart, Smart Smart, Smart Smart! 🎼🎵🎶😂

[@sueellens]

Never Mormon, but seeing all of the cultlike behavior, not just in the US (where I live) but recognizing it all over the world, these videos have been on my recommended list so figured I’d start watching. I’ve read a great deal about most of the larger religions of the world. I was, still am, tired of the evangelicals in my world (friends and family) telling me that all other beliefs are evil and cults, etc. I wanted to figure things out myself. In my early 60s now, I’m finally able to see what the LDS is about, why certain things are not allowed, etc. I live about 25 miles west of Hill Cumorah. My dad took me to the Pageant shortly after my mom passed away (I,was 14-1/2 when she passed, he was 45). He was ‘searching’. Luckily that is all that happened. It was a show we went to see. I was searching in my youth as well…read Dianetics, filled out a questionnaire card, mailed it in. I found out three or so decades later that that ‘church’ did send me a mailer about joining but my dad got the mail that day and tore it up (thank you dad)…he kept me away from Scientology. Anyway, this was my first video and I will definitely check out the others. It’s helpful to me to understand the thought processes not only of Mormons, but any believer who wears blinders to the truth. Thank you.

[@zanzer386]

Watch Leah Remini’s Scientology and the Aftermath…it helped me a lot to see this exact thing…I could so clearly see the comparison, the coercive control & the absolute dysfunction in the religion I was born/raised into. In my journey I’ve decided the only thing I know for sure and can build a foundation on is simply Love itself. I do not need to go to a church/guru/priest when Love resides in my heart and the kingdom of Heaven is within (& all around us, inside our brothers & sisters & in nature itself). Blessings on your deconstructing journey ❤

[@believeinnature8930]

It is unsettling the way JS used revelation and fear to control people. God, has nothing to do with his actions. If God would have decided to implement polygamy, He would have send his angels to speak to women to prepare them to become a guy’s second or third wife, because it is an extremely sensitive decision. Just like when an angel visited Mary, (Jesus’ mother and Joseph) to prepare them for the coming of Jesus through them. I hope my narrative is clear enough to see my point of view.

[@Joyfulness87]

"Give me power, give me your women, and give me your money". 😔

[@erestew]

@@markschultz8982 Many were underaged girls. Truly disturbing.

[@0602penny]

you forgot to add the orange jesus to this list of manipulators

[@kimberlyporter9555]

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 this goes for all organized religion. Private, solitary study might be best.

[@playnicechannel]

LDS and most high demand religions have shorthand for this. Pay, pray and obey. It didn’t work out for the Roman Catholic Church, the Witnesses, the Puritans, the FLDS, and many modern pseudo religious cults.

[@zanzer386]

@@kimberlyporter9555ummmm exactly!😆Raised Catholic & I agree…control, power, greed, control over the sexes & sex itself with a “do as I say not as I do” attitude is a theme in all these man-made religion/cults

[@dannylarsen4290]

Someone should organize a tithing protest march during upcoming General Conference.

[@wesliepowell5698]

Excellent idea!

[@martybaggenmusic]

I would love to see an episode devoted to the exploration of the notion that Smith stumbled into the creation of a religion when his primary motive was to simply SELL BOOKS. His entire story seems to be Joe in a constant state of reactionary behavior where he is simultaneously on the ragged edge of control while trying to reap all the benefits of being a prophet (wealth, power, women, political aspirations, militaristic aspirations, etc).

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

I agree with John that we should be able to hold God accountable. One of the reasons I left the church is that I felt that I had a relationship with God but God didn't have a relationship with me. Nothing broke my heart more than God not doing it's part to keep me in the church by leading me to conclusions that made sense to my brain and didn't just lead me to mental confusion. ❤️❤️❤️

[@sheliabryant3997]

😭Sorry, BodyTrainer. Came to feel that way as little girl & refused to even think of God til 40-something. I thot to escape that mindset by exploring & joining Mormonism. 🤣😂 Still, after discovering Shawn Mc. and, later, John Dehlin, & now the whole MORMON WOKE pilgrimage, I am so thankful for each & all. Because, just as the SEC R.E.V.E.L.A.T.I.O.N. is less about the munny than about the REVEAL, I have realized that my fury with GOD's permitting men to hijack & crash His creation is not at all about God's failure as God, but is, likewise, about the REVEAL. But He called us out, didn't He, from the steaming pit? And was leading us all along to the edge of "the world" where we would reach the point of, "Jump or Die.". And He's caught us. And here to bless us every one. 🌈

[@inChristalone1960]

I could not find god within the lds church. Could not find HIM till l left.

[@andreadiamond7115]

Excellent work gentlemen! Loved hearing John say “cluster f”. 😂

[@dreibel]

The Nauvoo House revelation reminds me of sage advice from Simon Whistler on The casual Criminalist: "never write down your crimes.".

[@easydoesit62]

Did you guys remember the prophecy that Joseph got that he didn’t have to do manual labor on the Kirkland temple? Everyone else did but God commanded that he didn’t have to? Ridiculous! 😂. I know you can’t cover them all but to me, this one was a hilarious doozy!!

[@celinepope]

Omg where can I read that?

[@zanzer386]

😮whaaaat?! What a selfish dick move. Reminds me of Lori Vallow tho…she didn’t have to do any of the things the others did because she’s a “translated being”…how convenient

[@freedomandcoffee]

wow.. what a humble servant of god he was.

[@Alibee123]

My father used the LDS God as his role model and guide in parenting. He said things like, “It’ll hurt me more than it hurts you.” Before administering physical punishment and that he only did it because he loved me. He told pregnant youth that it was better they died than become pregnant out of the covenant and he threatened me that if I moved out of the family home to further my education that I was not welcome home again. He was sustained as a bishop in the church. It probably goes without saying that my relationship with him is severely damaged and the entire family is dysfunctional. It was reading an essay by polygamy survivor Doris Hansen ‘what love is this?’ (after I had been pressed by members of the church to secretly join them, living the everlasting covenant as intended and practised by JS) helped me to recognise the manipulative, controlling, abusing ‘love’ that I had grown up with in the LDS organization.

[@jamiepotts6102]

😱

[@annamommy6393]

Oh my gosh thanks so much for putting in this clip! It is exactly what I was thinking of as Nemo was reading about the stockstockstockstocks haha

[@RebeccaRaven]

"I am the great and terrible Oz!" coming up next.

[@christopherhardy8937]

Listening to Nemo read the Nauvoo House revelation reminds me of Monty Pythons Holy Hand Grenade Scripture

[@christopherhardy8937]

Omg I just typed that as the skit came on!!!

[@freedomandcoffee]

@@christopherhardy8937 😂🤣 that's amazing

[@jamiepotts6102]

I always love the LDS Discussions episodes

[@phrodoggg]

After the Dartmouth and this episode, I have no more doubts to doubt.......the church is not true.

[@missypinegar9993]

Another great episode! Love to watch an episode about President Nelson and his fabricated stories.

[@lesliejentzsch1063]

In the Bible, angels went to Mary and others to tell them what God wanted. Like you stated, why didnt angels go to these women and tell them to marry Joseph? As a former Mormon and son of a polygamist I still have many questions about the mormon religion, which is why i watch your podcasts.

[@spoopyradicalsnake]

I love Mary's song written in Luke :) it's the truth about our Lord

[@isabelateixeira3713]

Exactly! God wasn’t afraid to speak directly to women, like the mormon “version” of Him seems to be🙄

[@debbie5876]

We do not have very many Mormons in Tennessee, and I have never known a Mormon or seen a temple, but I have always had the impression that Mormonism was a cult-like religion. I became interested in Mormonism after the Lori Vallow Daybed crimes came to light. After doing some research and watching some videos like these, I definitely cannot understand why anyone with common sense would be a practicing Mormon unless he or she was brainwashed. It appears to me that this Joseph Smith was a sham and scammer and he is still scamming people today in the name of money and power.

[@zanzer386]

Religion=the longest running scam run by scammers on earth

[@violetlaw8119]

Yes, they are all BRAINWASHED , by a lie

[@fionascheibel977]

Well the algorithm is pushing Mormon stories channel into my playlist after pretty much any video i watch on youtube no matter what the subject was. I have autoplay set up and you guys will play without me ever choosing you actively. I do sometimes watch you and im subscribed. But spooky that you arrive so often. I really hope you are arriving to people who you really can help. Im "Never Mormon" I just found you one day along with a heap of "exmo" presenters and channels.

[@hbendzulla8213]

I really feel, it is sacrilegious for people, saying, God put these words in Joseph’s mouth. My gosh give me a break.

[@natenelson9102]

With revelation about polygamy, there's already a model in the bible for God to work through. An angel appeared to Mary to tell her she'll conceive and then I believe in a dream, appears to Joseph to say: settle down, it's alright. God doesn't have to talk only to prophets

[@simplyjoyfully]

At 35:27 my first thought was "Didn't God go to Mary directly via an angel"? So,why wouldn't he go directly to the woman or, more correctly, GIRL and give them the "revelation"?

[@VWCheryl]

I thought the same thing. An angel visited both Mary and Joseph- both that were involved. It only makes sense it would work the same way if it was coming from God.

[@michaelservetus5340]

If you learned that an angel did in fact go directly to one or more of the women who agreed to become plural wives, as reportedly happened in the Bible with Joseph and/or Mary, would that make a difference to you? Keep in mind that an angel appearing directly with Mary was pertaining to her becoming the mother of the Son of God. So, I think you would put that in a category of events which you might expect an actual angel to announce in person. Even today, we understand that there are some things to be communicated from one person to another that are too important to be handled in a more informal way such as, for instance, via a text message rather rather than in person. As to Joseph, though, "the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream." When you ask about why didn't God go directly to the women to give them " 'the revelation'?," what makes you think He didn't? If you actually did any kind of research on the issue without relying on anti-Mormon highly-biased spin, you would find that there are all kinds of accounts of the revelations to women who became plural wives and that these women would never have agreed to become plural wives without the personal revelations to them (separate and apart from anything Joseph Smith may have communicated to them as being revelation to him) that convinced them it was of God. I'm not saying there is extant evidence in all cases, but there is ample evidence in many cases. For instance, there is evidence that Mary Elizabeth Rollins, who was one of the four "polyandry" wives, certainly had revelation in advance of her agreement to become a plural wife, and that she would not have agreed without her own witness from God. For a summary description of events pertaining to Mary Rollins, check out Answering the "CES Letter": Polygamy & the Book of Mormon Translation (Hannah Stoddard, Radio) on KZbin beginning at, say, the 14:18 marker of the video. Of course, Stoddard's description is not the evidence and I do not vouch for Stoddard. For years Mary Rollins experienced dreams while sleeping, which could be characterized as unwanted dreams, in which she was married to Joseph Smith. But, she did not rely on the dreams she had experienced. The evidence is that she wouldn't even consider plural marriage to Smith without first receiving a witness from God. However, it is her account that she received revelation that convinced her. It should be noted regarding a different one of the plural wives that DNA evidence showed relatively recently that the daughter of Sylvia Sessions Lyon was not the biological child of Joseph Smith. Following the DNA results, there really is insufficient evidence now to show, even by the low standard of preponderance of the evidence, that the plural marriages of any of the "polyandry" wives involved sexual relations between any of these particular wives and Smith (not that it truly makes the difference for purposes of determining what you choose to believe pertaining to the "polyandry" wives). To be clear, there is reliable evidence showing many of the plural marriages of Smith involved sexual relations between him and the other plural wives, which is not something the vast majority of TBMs dispute given that Smith and these particular plural wives were married in every sense. However, the evidence is that there was never any any courtship, romantic relationship, or sexual relationship involved pertaining to the plural marriage of Smith and Helen Mar Kimball, which was a marriage that the evidence indicates was nothing more than a formality expressly pertaining to eternity only and never intended to apply during her mortal life.

[@emilywinkel8669]

I LOVE Nemo’s perspective and comments!!!

[@cmitc01]

Taking it further back and to its logical conclusion, how about the veil? Wiping your children’s memory then asking them to trust their feelings is a mess

[@SaneAsylum]

Funny thing is that you'd be saying the opposite if you understood the purpose of life and God hadn't!

[@cmitc01]

@@SaneAsylum Not sure I’m picking up what you’re laying down but it feels a lot like “the thinking has been done” which, sure if that works for you. Doesn’t for me.

[@SaneAsylum]

@@cmitc01 No, not at all. The purpose of life is an objective choice absent compulsion so... That (as you will one day find out) is objectively true. There are lots of things people didn't believe in that later turned out to be true. As my entire point illustrates, you still get to pick which side of that you want to be on.

[@sheliabryant3997]

@@SaneAsylum Your presumption neither sane nor asylum. Good, however, that God understood the purpose of life, having created it FOR HIS PURPOSE. 🌈

[@zanzer386]

@@SaneAsylumplse elaborate… the purpose of life is what now? According to you…

[@loghog4392]

Nemo nailed it! I am convinced that Joseph was almost always thinking, "How far can I push this? Just how much of this nonsense will these people believe?"

[@GregoryMutt]

I had a revelation last night. I cant remember it exactly but it was something along the lines of " I , the lord am not happy with thine wife, for she hath not provideth her husband with a slice of cake and a cup of tea, and thus should go about doing so immediately or I will show her my wrath" I told my wife about it, but she thinks that it was from the devil.

[@scottduede8134]

This is wonderful; thanks!

[@robmckay5421]

Martin Harris is so afraid of God's wrath that he mortgaged his farm is amazing how gullible he was.

[@elizagrogan9454]

The Monty Python scene makes me laugh hard every time I watch it. Joseph Smith was a fraudulent, money hungry, mysogonist. How can anybody accept his word as truth? He founded a church to enable his lust to flourish and his greed to be fulfilled. Today's leaders are following his lead by hoarding money and living a lavish lifestyle.

[@sheliabryant3997]

HOLY HAND GRENADE, INDEED!

[@shaunameyer1808]

What I hear all the time is…… how could a 14 yr old boy write a book like the BOM, with little to no education. I have a hard time with this myself.

[@rkn2800]

Having been born and raised in the Church, these discussions are earth-shattering, and completely logical. It gives me the feeling of being tossed out of the plane without a parachute (i.e. terrifying), while realizing at the same time that ʻWait, I’m fine. I can fly and land safely as I am using my faculties of making sense of logic.’ Yes, the logic is correct. The discussion about the nature and ʻlimitatons’ of God (or really the narrative around God) is near the center of the stripping away of the burden of what we’ve been saddled with all our lives at church.

[@agustaharting21]

The LDS church never was our parachute. Jesus ALONE is our “ark”, our safe place, our rock and our fortress. The counterfeit scam that this cult is, only proves further to me that Satan is real, and that the warnings by Jesus Himself about false prophets are indeed legitimate. Thank God for all the exposure that is finally available to those who are tormented by doubt in this powerful cult. There was only a fraction of that available in 1981 when God enabled me and my family to escape! Please keep loving and telling the TRUTH!!

[@erpthompsonqueen9130]

Thank you. Watching from Alaska. You all are inspiring.

[@leobramel5345]

Jesus said he would return soon . That was 2,000 years ago . Some people would say times up .

[@spoopyradicalsnake]

2 Peter 3 ... there is still time

[@anthonydelfino6171]

1:45:20 I recently realized that the temperance movement coincided with the word of wisdom independent of this after having watched the Knowing Better video about the movement. It also made a lot of sense both as to why coffee and tea were banned as part of it since those weren't considered okay in that movement. And also why soft drinks weren't banned but likely would have been since the first soft drink didn't exist at the time the temperance movement was taking off. (tangent.... also it's interesting to see so many Mormons that were either outside of Utah or were still devout when I left the church in 2002 describe soft drinks as against the word of wisdom when it never was considered against it in the churches I grew up in)

[@MultiPetercool]

Boss Nass from Star Wars: “We sah no care’n ‘bout de Naboo! Tink dey brain so big! Dem all BombBad!” 😂

[@freedomandcoffee]

that holy hand grenade scene tho... CLASSIC. pretty sure that's what JS was riffing off of 😂🤣

[@BULLHORNZ_]

God bless you guys

[@PrestoJacobson]

They really are doing God's work. ;D

[@mjordan79705]

It just occurred to me (I’m kind of slow) that there’s phallic imagery in the flaming sword

[@jenr8tor]

Here's what I need: how do you address 'line upon line, precept on precept'? My very active Mormon family's counter- arguments largely consist of more info/knowledge being given to Joseph & the Church in smaller, more easily observable chunks. Also, what is the 'WHY'? If you can't be persuaded that Joseph Smith was after money, power, influence to the point of risking his own life, why would he keep perpetrating the con? Hubris, narcissism, sociopathic tendencies? I would have gotten out after being tarred & feathered, if not before.

[@tykiisel8801]

"My ways are not your ways."

[@Mark_McC]

Thank God!

[@ryanhollist3950]

In listening to the apologetics, I've come to view the Mormon (and even general Christian) God as a combination of impotent, capricious, and/or cruel.

[@ashesfalldown492]

59:57 and man I thought this week’s Torah Portion on building the tabernacle was tedious. That “revelation” feels like a joke. Why is it canonized scripture is a good question. What does it teach us in the present other than the church follows the example of Joseph and hides money and invests it and doesn’t pay out to anyone else?

[@AnnaReed42]

I'm so glad John pulled up the holy hand grenade scene, because that is exactly what came to mind as I listened to that revelation 😂🤣😂🤣

[@edlukens2447]

Alexander Campbell's 1832 analysis of problems with the Book of Mormon - "Delusions" is fascinating and worth a look by Mormon Stories. This is an analysis that's less than 2 years after the publication of the Book of Mormon - a contemporary analysis of problems with early Mormon truth claims.

[@believeinnature8930]

God’s personality and way of doing things in Joseph Smith’s time is totally different from the God in the New Testament. Can you imagine God telling the Pharisees and scribes “You better accept Jesus, my beloved son, as your Savior or I will destroy you.”

[@inChristalone1960]

l believe that the god of the lds came from joseph's imagination. That is why mormon Jesus behaves and speaks differently. Respectfully, He is not real, and cannot save. Please, please research all you can about the verifiability and reliability of the Bible. Research the truth claims of the lds church, it's doctrines and history. I once was a true believer. The people within the church are so beautiful.🌹 They are what is true, not the twisted doctrine or lies about the hidden history. 💔

[@geoffnoyes520]

The two best days in many people's life are the day they become LDS church members, and the day they resign from that church.

[@Pay-It_Forward]

1:00:00 sets a precedence for future consecration of assets. The endowment promise.

[@jonathanwilliams1641]

At about 1:27:48 Nemo holds up his German made pencil. Curious what brand it is as I like nice mechanical pencils. I have a few Rotrings which were a German brand that is now (mostly) produced in Japan and no longer in Germany.

[@janangel3708]

JS sounds so narcissistic

[@SaneAsylum]

It was rather hard for him not to focus on what everyone was attacking so violently from day 1 don't you think? I see it as a positive quality given his circumstances.

[@Mark_McC]

@@SaneAsylum violently attacking from day 1? Really? LOL, uh ok…

[@SaneAsylum]

@@Mark_McC You're probably right. I mean Joseph was met with bouquets of flowers when he told people about his experiences. Don't know how I missed that among the viscous attacks that saw him in hiding from (lest I repeat myself) day one.

[@Mark_McC]

@@SaneAsylum sure. Go ahead. Swallow all of the kool-aid you want. Whatever works for you. Took me 50 years to see the extent of all the nonsense so you do you.

[@SaneAsylum]

@@Mark_McC You state "Took me 50 years to see the extent of all the nonsense" in an attempt to appeal to (your assumption) more experience but in reality it just sounds like a bad line on a resume that is more of a disqualifier than a qualifier. You spend a life building something only to realize that you had built it all wrong so tore it down along with 50 years of toil that amounted to nothing. That says nothing of me nor my choices (which time will bear out I am quite sure). You think that people are wrong because they came to a similar conclusion as you, when you were. There are many inherent flaws in that logic!

[@beverlya.8751]

I have a question and I'm hoping I get a response. What about the revelation from Joseph Smith through the seer Stone to sell the copyright of the book of Mormon in Canada? Have you brought this up yet? It was a failed revelation. Anything you can share would be helpful to me.

[@rockthemic12]

Theist philosophers have attempted to construct what an ethical God might look like. Those constructions seem irreconcilable with the God of the Bible. And the God of Mormonism is even more ethically problematic than the God of the Bible. I personally support follow up episodes that have experts in philosophy, the Bible, and Mormonism speak to and compare the different conceptualizations of God.

[@SaneAsylum]

It would be problematic IF we claimed the scriptures were written by God rather than men acting under imperfect inspiration. The massive irony is that you are here cheerleading an episode that seeks to discount Joseph on the same basis as you are using flipped to discount God himself. That Joseph wasn't perfect strengthens the case that revelation isn't either and cannot be relied upon to use as an iron clad litmus test of objective truth (but such an undertaking may certainly be personally inspired by such consequent to its study). Evidence of God is literally everywhere all the time. Few scientists discount the probability of intelligent alien life. The sticking point is benevolence (ironic since they often postulate that aliens would be non-destructive having overcome our human weaknesses). In the end it really is an emotional issue for most religious and most non-religious people with extremely few exceptions. Take a long look in the mirror there.

[@rockthemic12]

The world is only so big. If you know me IRL I would be happy to talk to you sometime. I’m sure I didn’t do the best job of articulating my thoughts. But you clearly attributed to my comment meaning far beyond what was explicitly stated, and which was not intended.

[@user-sr2qz7uw2t]

I am curious about the handcart company disaster. Was there revelation sending them West. This disaster has always haunted me since childhood.

[@johncunningham739]

Brigham Young in 1855 in a sermon said Joseph Smith did not see god,jesus, and the Holy Ghost or the 24 different angels. as we are not all immortal, and the armies of heaven did not appear .

[@SaneAsylum]

Yeah but he was making a point about Skype at the time to be fair and people just didn't understand.

[@quincyjensen5917]

So is Nemo actually Mormon? If so why does he seem to disagree with so much of it?

[@shmataboro8634]

Whoa...Joseph Smith: Prophet, Seer and Groomer.

[@sheliabryant3997]

At Joseph AMNON Smith & all his CHILDREN

[@sanachristian4577]

Like two magnets having their negative charged ends. One pushing against the same charged magnet. North pushes against north.

[@freyseagrove-nelson4726]

1:10:46 To translate, Oliver Cowdery would put his dosing rod in a hat then put his face in the hat and the words would appear on the rod, obviously.

[@tinatieden8499]

Im very CONFUSED. where is the playlist for this series? I click it and it links back to episode 36. I cant even find the playlist in the videos. HELP !

[@drakelazerus]

image if a general conference talk shows up censored in the ensign. Oh wait that has happen, The infamous "The church and the Gospel" Talk by Eleder Poelman in 1984 that John did a review on. They not only edited in the ensign they made Poelman go back and redo his talk and then they spliced it to the original to make it look like it was the original. Going back and editing revelations throws a whole lot of shade on the validity of those previous revelations. Did God not know what he was doing or did Joseph? So confusing. Why not just announce an addition to it? But that would point out the glaring problems with the originals though.

[@devers6]

The demands of Joseph Smith: - Will you believe me? - Will you follow me? - Will you obey me? - Will you exalt me? - Will you remember me?

[@merricat3025]

Declaration of Indepence US declared from independence from a monarchy with King George ruling. The monarchy from my memory, at the time, had no separation of powers. I think the founders (US) got inspiration from Native American tribe (Iroquois) and maybe the Dutch.

[@zanzer386]

People who have been born into & indoctrinated into any and all religions need to start asking themselves some hard questions… these man-made coercive control systems have harmed so many. Follow the money. Who benefits most from these “rules & revelations”.

[@jimrollick8157]

as a non mormon I want to ask how you guys can so profoundly question the roots and individuals you base your beliefs on yet at the same time continue to hold on to or at least continue to retain in your hearts the "system" of mormonism?

[@guapagorda]

Didn't God send an angel to Mary to let her know she'd be having God's baby and then, notified Joseph the same way? He sent a messenger to Joseph to tell him he had to marry Mary despite her being pregnant. This is the way that those "revelations" for polygamy should've been. If God was commanding JS to marry all these women and little girls, they had the right to personal revelation and a testimony from God that he required them to obey him. God could've sent a messenger to those women the same way he did to Joseph (Jesus' step dad). If JS's revelations were true, there wouldn't have been a need to threaten anyone.

[@charlesoliphant8905]

On the subject of Lucy Walker, I wonder why you exclude the history of her own personal witness, and manifestation from an angel before she consented to enter into plural marriage with Joseph. Did you exclude that detail intentionally or is your research incomplete?

[@mathewmusic4919]

Let a subject be proved by two or three witnesses

[@kevinmorris7224]

As I understand it, the 'Mansion House' was completed and was later used as a hotel, and even had a bar in it, and still stands today. The 'Nauvoo House', also referred to as the 'Nauvoo Mansion' was never completed, but was later converted into a smaller home for Emma and Mr. Bidamon, (subsequently, Joe & Hyrum's bodies would be temporarily buried there in secret after their assassination.)

[@allzeenamesaretaken]

OMG the holy hand grenade looks awfully like the depictions of the Liahona…

[@fakestreamedia5309]

This is fascinating information. I’m curious are the hosts of this show podcast believers now Christians? Or something else? Thx

[@lolocsun]

Go to the BIBLE... That's the way to see if what JS claims is "God's" plan, is really from God... In Matthew19, Jesus counsels, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning, made them male and female, and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife ((not WIVES)), and the TWO will become one flesh?" ...I'm sure there are plenty of unseen devious spirits, that are eager to take the place of/stand in for "God" when God's Word is not trusted... = )

[@Rongodby]

Didn't Oliver Cawdrey make the book of Hebrew available to Joseph Smith to base the Book of Mormon on?

[@ashesfalldown492]

Man, I find it sick that a dude who read the Bible all the time got the idea of prophecy was for his own gain. None of the prophets seemed to get much out of it! Lol. Prophets tended to have a short life expectancy because they told people what they didn’t want to hear. So for a dude who took the Bible literally, it is obvious he actually didn’t. He couldn’t. Because he never would have seen a prophet as the person he became. And unless it came to idolatry, it was rare for God in the Bible to smite an individual for not listening. To have that specific threat is wold because it takes the whole idea of free will out. You don’t get anything for listening but you get hurt for not? That isn’t a contract, that is torture

[@anjelikag]

“Power, sex, and money” JS sounds like Lori Vallow.

[@nadinehansen9241]

Regarding the "canal" that was mentioned in connection with the devil being upon the waters, I think that was a reference to the Erie Canal. It was probably seen as a pretty safe way to travel. For a really fascinating podcast about the importance of the Erie canal and its relationship to early Mormonism, don't miss this backyard professor interview on the topic. I had absolutely NO idea how important the Erie Canal was the the nation in general or to the early LDS church. kzbin.info/www/bejne/n4uqZmlqgqp-ipo

[@elizabethdavis8594]

Joseph went as far as to put himself above Jesus. That is too far.

[@marylamphere2112]

If we assume they had actual folk magic abilities then they were scrying. The rock in the hat had no powers, the dowsing rod had no power, the words appeared in their minds when they focused on the rock in the hat or focused on keeping the stick steady. People think the crystal ball shows the images to the fortune teller but in reality they just focus on it, giving their eyes and mind something to focus on while their subconscious mind, 6th sense, Gods word, whatever, appears.

[@phrog849]

1:23:20 The idea of challenging other people to produce content like the prophet's comes up several times in the Quran as well. "And if you all are in doubt about what I have revealed to My servant, bring a single chapter like it, and call your witnesses besides God if you are truthful.” (Quran 2:23) "Say: ‘If all mankind and the jinn would come together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce its like even though they exerted all and their strength in aiding one another.'" (Quran 17:88) “Or do they say that he has invented it? Say (to them), ‘Bring ten invented chapters like it, and call for help on whomever you can besides God, if you are truthful.” (Quran 11:13)

[@sanachristian4577]

Dowsing has to do with the water molecules pushing against the same charge of the dowsing rod. I learned this in my premed biology

[@cantsay]

52:07 this reads like a bad B film with Remlo... anyone know what im talking about? "Take the drug once and you can stop, take twice your ok, take the drug 3 times and if you try to quit you die... " such a funny movie

[@spoopyradicalsnake]

this is so sad.

[@brettbair2654]

Did god pick less attractive old maids for JS? Maybe those struggling to get married? The hotter your wife the farther away you got sent on your mission? Things that make you go, hmmm.

[@dygz]

I mean... “a loving God” is a fairly recent concept. Yahweh originated as a god of Justice and War. And Justice is more often cruel, rather than kind...historically speaking.

[@rtharalson]

Today we learned John takes baths....

[@katrinkarlsdottir]

Interesting. God did manage to send a messanger to Mary about her being pregnant with Jesus. So we know that God can send a messanger to a woman.

[@martybaggenmusic]

To address the concerns of the panel (outlaw people saying they speak for god, or constraining revelations of "leaders").... the answer is NOT to limit expression and speech (implementing church rules or limiting the 1st Amendment), but to EXPAND it. Is that not how this channel even exists? Imposed limitations does not have a very good track record for the last few thousand years. Common sense and critical thinking cannot be legislated or imposed. That is a path to ruin and self-destruction.

[@mathewmusic4919]

God spoke through prophets. To help the people serve and obey GOD . Yall are trying to say what you want GOD to do anD not DO. I'm leaving the church now cause I don't believe nor have really ever believed in Joseph. All my inner man has told me no its not true. I'm just now listening. But I know GOD speaks through prophets. I just don't think Joseph was one. I believe he was decieved and so is my family

[@hbendzulla8213]

Right on, may Mormons feel like that but fail to admit it.

[@LDSDiscussions]

The problem is that the prophets that claim to speak for God continually get it wrong ever since making claims in times where we have records to assess their claims.

[@rebeccacall7348]

An even bigger problem is the countless instances of deception, thievery, and manipulation since the church's beginning, committed by "men of God."

[@mathewmusic4919]

I know GOD exists and if we repent and seek him we will find him just like the Bible says

[@melissamckinley-rigg2311]

I'm assuming you've met God... otherwise, you don't KNOW, you BELIEVE

[@mjordan79705]

1:48 Emma sounds a bit cranky I wonder why…..

[@citizen3902]

One of the worst thing man has done is to create God in his own image: a deity who resembles an earthly human form with major human ego issues like hatred, threatenings, revenge, jealousy, and judging and thrusting people into hell. Christianity’s god is not my god!

[@wmjas]

Muhammad gave an identical challenge: write a revelation like those in the Quran, or admit that the Quran is inspired.