How the Mormon Church Handles Doubt | Ep. 1800 | LDS Discussions Ep. 44

[@purkinje7894]

I wasn’t pulled into the boat, I was born in the boat. I was told how dangerous the water was and had to take them at their word. I was told that there was a captain who wanted nothing more than to take us to safety… but the captain wouldn’t talk to us directly. We could send him notes and sometimes he would send vague messages back, but he never showed his face. We had a first mate who said he spoke to the captain and he would tell us what the captain said and how we would get back home. The first first mate said we needed to head north so we did. But then he died. The next first mate said the captain told him we need to be heading northeast, not north, but we were close. Then the third first mate said we should be heading East. Then south. Then west. Then north again. Then you start to ask “are we just going in circles? Can we talk to the captain directly? Can he come out of his quarters and show his face? We want to go home.” Then you are told “no, you just have to trust that the first mate is telling you the truth.” Then they tell you “Look, I can’t promise that we’ll get you home while you are still alive. You might die on this boat, but you just have to trust that we’ll get you there eventually - even if it’s after your dead.” You start to wonder if there is a captain at all. And if there is a captain it starts to become clear that the first mate isn’t talking to him. So you gamble. You take your life in your own hands… and you jump into the water out of desperation to find your own way home. And the water is refreshing, and it’s waist deep. It has been the whole time. Sure there are storms, and waves, and the water is cold sometimes, but it’s also teaming with life.

[@heidisorenson4678]

Thank you, beautifully said.

[@InTheNeau]

My life story in 14 short paragraphs. Yes, the water is refreshing AF + waist deep. Thank you for this beautiful description 🙏💕✨

[@monus782]

I grew up Catholic but we have a very similar metaphor to refer to the Church but it's usually compared as a new Noah's Ark or something like that, before the changes in the 1960's the Church basically believed almost all non-Catholics were going to hell (they've softened it since) and the mantra "outside the Church there is no salvation" is popular in the fundamentalist movement I was part of and I think it's also something used to gaslight those who want to leave. This is yet another thing that both Mormon and Catholic churches seem to have in common and another reason why I've found so many things in common with you guys as an ex-Catholic (in some cases more so than I do with exvangelicals and even other ex-Catholics despite the theology being different).

[@gomifunelives6085]

Great analogy. The Mormons say (and I was a convert for 27 years) they restored something but there was no pope/prophet in the primitive church. Prophetic gifts were dispersed through the Ekklesia (the body of believers). Even women had the gifts. But they can’t have that in the “restored” church. 🙄. The pope/prophet ended with the atonement of Jesus Christ: Hebrews 1:1-2. A man representing that he stands between us and God, telling us what God wants to say to us is blasphemy against the atonement of Jesus. He came to restore what was lost in the Garden.

[@gomifunelives6085]

There is a Captain, but the LDS church has so misrepresented him

[@marlenemeyer9841]

“Get an answer for yourself……..but if you doubt then you are being deceived.” It’s a thought stopping technique!

[@karenvecsei4217]

You need Blessing

[@gd8205]

@@karenvecsei4217Lololol

[@karenvecsei4217]

@@gd8205 LOL You don't have a response. Now that you have been educated. I am now dismissing you.

[@karenvecsei4217]

You definitely need Divine Intervention. Maybe your too far gone.

[@trixieloo]

@@karenvecsei4217 “you’re”

[@Zodiacalesotericmatrix]

As a convert, I was required to doubt everything but Mormonism.

[@monicatulia]

That’s how it works

[@rOnda88]

😳wow

[@markkrispin6944]

It is called "brainwashing". All cults use it.

[@BobF321]

Yes now you realize the truth of the saying way back in 1945,Sunday School Manual,that,"when the prophet speaks,the thinking has been done". So now you know,BUT PLEASE DONT THROW THE BABY OUT WITH THE DIRTY BATHWATER! INVESTIGATE WHO THE REAL JESUS IS. HE IS CLEARLY NOT A SPIRIT BROTHER ONLY OF LUCIFER IN THE PREEXISTENCE. Rather He enjoys a far greater,highest exaltation position that any other angel or man created alittle lower than angels but for a brief moment in time to redeem&reconcile by an act of legal propiation of our sin nature with sins. Read who He really is at Moroni 8:18,Colossians1:16,2:9&14 2Corinthians11:4&14 John1:12-14,3:3-36/5:24,10:28/14:1-6 1Timothy 2:5 Hebrews 1:3-8/4:16/7:24-5 1Peter 1,2,3:15 Bless you we dont need to suffer ongoingly with half an atonement,as 2Nephi 25:23 forces me,rather we get it all as in Romans5😊

[@BobF321]

PPS. Sorry to be so wordy LDS.doctrine says that Man in Adam actually FELL UPWARD,BREAKING THE LAW TO NOT EAT OF THE TREE SO HE ***COULD STILL***ENJOY THE FIRST COMMAND,TO HAVE JOY IN PROCREATION(&SEX) HOWEVER,ROMANS 5 AS MENTIONS IN VERSES 5-8,17,THAT,WHILE WE WERE STILL IN THE ACT OF SINNING,CHRIST DIED FOR US...SCARCELY FOR A RIGHTEOUS MAN WOULD ONE DIE,BUT GET THE BIG PICTURE,HE DIED FOR YOU&ME,SINNERS OWING A DEBT WE COULDNT PAY,WHICH HE PAID ON HIS CROSS,NOT ONLY SWEATING IN A GARDEN BEFORE COLOSSIANS 2:14🎉

[@function0077]

That is exactly why we are ex-Mormons. We believed our parents and leaders when they taught, "say what is right, let the consequence follow", "the truth matters", "by their fruits ye shall know them", "the truth can withstand scrutiny", etc.

[@matthewmitchell68]

The very first thing I felt when I left was relief. It didn’t matter anymore! I could be more myself and not worry about the stress that Mormonism puts on you.

[@blythe169]

i have spent my whole life trying to justify NOT looking outside of the church for answers and was always met with disappointment and dissatisfaction. these videos have been a HUGE part of my deconstruction and have given me more peace and understanding than anything the mormon church has published. keep up the great work john, mike, and nemo!

[@aosidh]

Proud of my child self, who realized "if it's actually true, then it can withstand doubts", and as a corollary, "when you get in trouble for asking a question, it's because somebody doesn't want to answer"

[@bsteiner4995]

I am 1000% in agreement to all of this! I have 5 kids in the church and seeing these clips makes me so angry 😡i worry about them but this gives me strength to know i have more knowledge to act for myself and communicate better with them

[@karenvecsei4217]

I'm Curious. Did you have five kids to the same man? Or do you have multiple husband's and he has multiple wives. Mormons love orgies

[@hbendzulla8213]

Let them slip.

[@OuttaMyMind911]

It’s almost fascinating in a way, that in just a few decades, I’ve watched the church go from touting itself as gods premier church, the greatest institution the earth has ever seen, containing all truth; to being compared to a rundown dirty dinghy, with a disheveled, unkempt fisherman as the “leader”. It’s been a crazy ride!

[@gomifunelives6085]

One thing that stands out to me about Nelson is he was such an amazing heart surgeon when he was practicing, but putting him in the “prophet” seat, he’s totally out of his element. It’s pathetic to watch him bring his liberalism to play in his decision making, like giving $6 million to the NAACP, just a bunch of race pimps and shakedown artists. And his fearful response to COVID are but two examples.

[@shelagh7850]

Thank you John, Mike, Gerardo, and Nemo for your thought provoking LDS Discussions series and faith journey stories. As of Friday the 25th, I received my notification from QuitMormon that I have been released from the Church. I hope that others, through your talks, find what makes them truly happy and content. I have gone back to my pre-Mormon faith as a belief in something, but a worship in nothing, a knowledge that there is a higher power, but I don't name them, and a strong knowing that I will be reunited somewhere with my family. Once again, thank you for your show.

[@ieatoutoften872]

I am not even doubting. I just wanted to get out of the toxic culture that would use me, and then throw me away like yesterday's newspaper.

[@elizabethrose9364]

I remember Steve Benson’s writing. Then about 12 years ago I accidentally found writings from a husband and wife translators who discovered some of the same things found in the CES letter today. It was on the internet, and I sat back in shock. I got real chills and I knew that what I had read was true. I was heartbroken. My grandfather joined the church so I was ingrained in it. I was a seminary teacher for nine years. But I also had an American History Degree. So, I started my research. I am 76 today but still go to our little ward here in Michigan as I love the feeling of being with my friends and don’t want them to be shocked or for us to be shunned. Our four children are no longer active. But I won’t go to RS or Sunday School where I would not be able to keep quiet. And we decided to finish paying our mortgage off instead of paying tithing. No guilt.

[@iamjustonemom1950]

Mike nailed it on Oaks' "research is not the answer" is meant to separate spouses in mixed faith marriages. He does not want the spouses to talk and study together, looking for truth.

[@ACompleteUnknown97]

Yeah, what really gets me is this insinuation that people with lists of doubts are doing it to find an excuse to be against the Church, that it's because of some moral problem or commitment problem, or a problem of their heart. As a kid I really had the idea drilled into my head that "good kids believe in the gospel, bad kids, the Lamans and Lemuels, are the ones who fall away." Which is one reason why even though I had so many doubts I was so committed, because I was a "good kid," and "good kids" were like Nephi. Only in my 20's did I feel the confidence to doubt a little more freely and honestly.

[@jerrimenard3092]

I am 52, so I remember a lot of this too. Thanks for sharing so new people can hear the truth.

[@sheliabryant3997]

@jerri. X Thousands 💞💞

[@katphyre]

Doubts do not lead to "faith" but doubts will almost always lead to truth.

[@mattbarnes3325]

Say that to the flat earthers

[@jlpack62]

I wasn't raised Mormon, or have ever been Mormon, yet here I am.

[@karenvecsei4217]

My advice is to become a Jack Mormon

[@elizabethgrogan8553]

@jlpack62 Same here

[@inChristalone1960]

My advice is to run from this toxic cult.

[@karenvecsei4217]

@@inChristalone1960 Good advice

[@teemarie5478]

Not only have never been Mormon, I’ve never in my life seen a Mormon church or Mormon people. I live in the Deep South of Louisiana. Yet here I am. I find it interesting how much these people let happen before finally walking away😩

[@misschoop2]

"I'm already British" 🤣 thank you SO much for all the time and energy put into these videos. They have been so helpful!

[@christopherrandallnicholson]

You hit it out of the park as always, John, Mike, and Nemo. Speaking of Sister Renlund not being equal to her husband (although I want to say parenthetically that I heard them speak in a smaller setting, and I thought the way they relentlessly teased each other was far more romantic than the usual "My wife is so amazing and I'm so unworthy of her" crap), could you do an episode on the church's history of sexism? It's a very neglected topic compared to the racism, but possibly even more damning. I grew up being taught that the church was the most pro-woman organization on Earth, that its divinely ordained gender roles weren't sexist and that anyone who thought they were just had the wrong perspective. My final shelf item was learning that a. this is pure BS and b. the church's current teachings about gender roles are a quietly watered-down version of its more extremely and blatantly sexist teachings from less than half a century ago. Mormons have no right to get away with pretending that the Family Proclamation's lip service to equality represents eternal and unchanged doctrine. Frankly, I'm still pissed off that the church intentionally conditioned me not to recognize sexism right in front of my face.

[@DanielFreed-ns3bv]

It's so weird to see how drastically different the churches doctrine is becoming in comparison to what it was when I grew up in the 70's. It's becoming unrecognizable. So glad to be out, I'm so much happier.

[@heidisorenson4678]

Me too. I became active in the 70s. It was very different.

[@catlovesthemoon]

Same 🎉❤

[@sjenson6694]

Well all they really care about is money and they have more than ever.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Prior to the 1970s, there was still some degree of autonomy for local congregations. The central church bureaucracy wasn't nearly as big and didn't try to micro-manage every detail of when, where, how and what local congregations were supposed to do from moment to moment and did not dictate (beyond the basic parameters of doctrine and church-prescribed morality) what local congregations could do in terms of activities. The "Correlation Committee" started its operations in the 1970s and really got going in the 1980s. By the 1990s, what had previously been closer to a religious franchise that allowed for local customization...morphed into something more like a tightly controlled, globally standardized corporate chain of religious "fast-food" restaurants. By way of fast-food analogy, at least in the 1990s, the Church corporate bureaucracy made some effort to serve food-like products in attractive wrappings and packages. Now, in the 2020s, the Church corporate bureaucracy has reduced content across the board, while demanding that their customers continue paying the same prices. You can still buy the Church's "Happy Meal" and "Super-Size" drinks. But the boxes and cups are empty. If you complain about the emptiness and deception, you're labeled as a troublemaker and hooligan. Instead of even going through the motions of providing anything of substance, they attempt to win you over to continuing loyalty by giving you pictures of dozens and dozens of beautiful new Ronald MacMormon Temples that have recently been built or are planned to be built. Sure, your cup may seem empty and dry and your Happy Meal box may be empty too. But look at what beautiful things they are doing with the money you've given them. Ronald MacMormon Temples are popping up everywhere. They've even started deleting Moroni, the Ronald MacMormon mascot, from the newer ones. But don't worry about it. And if you keep punching your customer loyalty cards, you may be invited to visit one of them, where you can dress up in special Ronald MacMormon Temple costumes (purchased by you or rented by you), practice some Ronald MacMormon handshakes and then walk through a creepy mesh curtain. Fun times! But only for loyal customers! (I'm still wondering when, if ever, any of my devout Mormon friends and family members will get a clue. The rug is being pulled out from under them, but the pullers just tell them to enjoy the ride...and my Mormon friends and family members say "okay!" )

[@Beksabe]

What I thought was a gathering in the 80s and 90s was actually a reigning in of the herd and then a mass branding in the 2000s. What was once a feast at meetings is now a peanut. The content has been whittled down to pamphlet material. I leave progressively emptier each Sunday for the last 2 decades and am now running on fumes.

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

The problem of anti- mormon material at 00:21.00. I think the best example of preventing members from reading any "anti" material is the self-regulation done by individual members. I know members who never read Rough Stone Rolling because they did not know who Richard Bushman was and so labelled him "anti". There is so much ignorance among members about material about the church since they will not read anything that might be critical of the church. They will then deny a number of church history problems like polygamy, blood atonement, anachronisms in the BM, and credibility issues with Joseph Smith.

[@inChristalone1960]

I am a former lds member. What you said really was true of me. The conditioned fear was so strong that it actually took me about 10 years to get the courage to read the history and anti material! When l finally did , l realized that those who had been slandered as wicked apostates were not the villans. The ones doing the slandering ( The General Authorities) actualy were the villans for lying and controlling us in this way. The Truth shall set you free.

[@mikeoyler2983]

Yes! I second this absolutely. Bushman is a pro Mormon historian in the sense that he is not trying to completely deconstruct any aspect of the Church's history. However, like any good historian he critically examines the narrative, he works with primary and secondary sources, he compares what other researchers are doing and gives his own opinion on the matter. This is too much for most members because it is not "faith promoting". They do not understand that history is a science. Yet, his work "Rough Stone Rolling" as far as I am concerned does not go far enough. Although, I think it is competent research.

[@lyndasalgodo3812]

Not Mormon but have Mormon friends. Very helpful, thank you so much for all of your work. 😊😊😄🎉🎉

[@janemelham1605]

Love when you sing, John ..... and when you show your passion for the truth.

[@Clintcellington]

I found my way out of the church in uch a different way. So I love these podcasts! They are so informative of history I had no idea existed, even when I left. Keep em coming!!

[@knz10639]

My RS president sent me that talk by the renlunds when I told her i had foubts and questions. It was so offputting and demeaning to me and didnt help at all. It was one of the last things that pushed me away before i committed to leaving the church. I was so upset listening to that talk that i was shaking with anger and frustration and almost crying.

[@Krissylyn177]

I’m so sorry someone sent this to you :/

[@marlenemeyer9841]

In my experience, Someone who doubts something is someone who cares deeply about truth.

[@kera9389]

1:38:50 I tried to give this analogy to my mom I just simply stating could god exist, and the church be untrue and she couldn’t even fathom an idea of that. that was not even possible but this analogy just puts it so perfectly about the house you know you don’t need to have the church to believe in God

[@cristianmerli5050]

We really need you to make an episode on HOW people start their process of researching the church. Most mormons won't even give it a thought even after being shown the facts. So I'm wondering, those who left the church, what brought them to the point of saying "ok, I'm ready to investigate"??

[@misschoop2]

That would be an interesting episode! I decided to make a timeline for my faith journey to figure out what happened. It started with only church approved resources. 2021 - 2023 I read the Saints books and the "Let's talk about Polygamy" book. I heard things I had never heard about which led to questions and the Polygamy book didn't make me feel better about Polygamy. 2023 we watched lots of documentaries about different cults because it was interesting: Jim Jones, Under the Banner of Heaven, Cult Sisters, etc. But it wasn't until Jan 2024 that we decided to be done with church because we were burnt out! That's when I finally gave myself permission to look at resources OUTSIDE of the church. I was shocked by all the information! I was just looking up videos on how to tell family we were leaving the church!

[@karukun0212]

John does a great job here of summarizing the timeline of how anti-Mormons have been viewed--concur with that description and timeline. The Tanners were very much of the devil. Internet has really changed the game; Church trying so hard with IO ops to counter this, but it is hard to overcome.

[@DmanRC]

Ah crap, how long am I going to have to wait to get the rest of this episode? In many ways, this should be one of the first episodes you should watch of the LDS discussions series. It validates from the beginning that we aren’t crazy. The LDS church has manipulated so many of us since birth that when we even think about doubting something they taught/told us we think that we’re the problem. It’s a long painful journey out but this episode is a “car in good working order” for all of those lemon cars the church sold us.

[@sherieweber6708]

Truth IS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS AT THE END OF THE DAY!

[@rp7983]

I haven't had the opportunity to inform my family that I've left the church. They're too caught up in their own lives to take notice my lifestyle change. Listening to this is making me anticipate their obtuse thinking and predictable shallow apologetic responses. Probably the best route is to not even engage in their programmed responses, because they're designed to run you in circles and create division in an already narrow channel.

[@heidisorenson4678]

I've been there and done that. Stay strong. My family lives in fear of the truth.

[@ieatoutoften872]

@rp From the Mormon play/movie Saturday's Warrior: "You're not alone!" Based on my experience, they won't even notice you left THE church.

[@Sentientdreamer]

Make things easy for you... This was one of the best episodes on how the church 'thinks' about these things. I have family still in the church and if I could have frank and open conversations with them, I'd ask them how being an active member of the Mormon church makes their lives better than other people and break down the discrepancies between what they 'feel' and what's accurate... It's taken work on my part to let them be with the church. It's like finding out a spouse is cheating on a sibling. Do I bring it up or no...? At this point and for the foreseeable future I don't bring it up.

[@TheSaintelias]

Good luck with that moment of communication

[@ZCMIShopper]

Very Enlightening... Forty years ago we were taught, If you have doubts... Seek and ye shall find the truth...Thank you, the truth has set us free! LOL Great Episode!

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

Having served in a bishopric here is another strategy. Whenever I bring up how can we minister to those who doubt or have faith crises, the leadership changes the subject to something else. Thy don't want to talk about loss of active members, instead just hoping the problem will correct itself. The church is now betting the farm at retaining active youth in the church and turning a blind eye to older members and their struggles.

[@sandaroocompilations5182]

What a great episode! Thank you Mormon Stories!

[@mikegrogitsky105]

Thank you guys! Got my letter back from the church last week. I am officially an ExMo. After listening to every lds discussions episode there was no way I could possibly let my records exists in the church anymore even though I left the church years ago. Glad I made the decision to get out officially. Bye Felicia 👋🏼

[@skyjust828]

I left "the church" in 1978 (my church court happened to land the Monday they announced black men could hold the priesthood I chose not to attend. By that time I just thought they would kick me out when they rescheduled & didn't show then either 🥴 finally in 1996 I think I called & demanded my excommunication! For yet another long story. Today I style myself Mormon by birth, Christian by chouce❤😁🙏

[@Geospasmic]

I love Nemo's comment about the deck chairs. I can hear that lady's voice now: "As you notice the Titanic sinking, the chaos around you, people plummeting into the Arctic water, you also start to think that you don't particularly like the arrangement of the deck chairs. You're choosing to be a perpetual doubter."

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

I think many members with doubts will never go to their bishop. He would probably take away the temple recommend and tell the person to abstain from taking sacrament. It is easier to stay in the closet with faith doubts.

[@karenvecsei4217]

In Australia we gave a member who fooled around with a Bishop then married him. This doesn't sound right to me?

[@heidisorenson4678]

It's really scary. I am glad I am out.

[@Ex-LDS]

Outstanding! Well done Mike, John and Nemo! Thanks!👍

[@MsCaterific]

The Renlund's talk is soooo Gaslighty 😡 Great episode!!!

[@kyrroti]

I don’t enjoy the church being wrong. I don’t enjoy my perspective of the world being false. I don’t enjoy that bad things happened in church history. I didn’t want to doubt. I am happy that I now have a worldview where I can let new information inform my beliefs.

[@K8O-hp8sz]

Please cover the connexions/8 passengers and how this relates to Mormonism

[@shayla3034]

From an ex-LDS to Christian perspective, getting out of the boat and walking to Jesus on the water is exactly what we are supposed to do. The guy in the boat is taking you to the wrong place!

[@BobF321]

Who is better?2Corinthians11:4&14

[@BobF321]

Sorry Shayla,I read u wrongly,YOU RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT,NEED TO GET OUT OF THE MASTER LDS.CRAFT&IN FAITH WALK OUT OF THERE,IN RISKY WATERS TO THE CAPTAIN&SHEPHERD OF OUR SOULS. Hebrews11:4

[@VWCheryl]

Yes!

[@heathercummins9778]

Amen to this 100%.

[@gomifunelives6085]

The guy in the boat, the first mate, he was relieved of his authority to speak for the Captain after Christ was crucified and the curtain was ripped from top to bottom in the temple that led to the Holy of Holies. We now go directly to Jesus. (We have gifts of prophecy in the body but there is no Pope (man) who tells us God’s will). He (Jesus) is our high priest and our intermediary to the Captain. We are totally authorized to speak to the Captain He is the first mate now, not some man. Hebrews 1:1-2 is quite clear. Who was prophet of the church in the primitive church? No one! How do you restore something that didn’t exist in the primitive church? Why were there prophetesses spoken of in the NT but we don’t have that today? Luke 2:36 How is something restored but other things from the primitive church ignored? 🤔

[@thelastgoonie6555]

Remember the conference talk about the church being a LUXURY CRUISE LINER? I love that the church is now a dilapidated dinghy. lol

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

At around 49:50 , Elder Renlund refers to a person's doubts caused by finding out that there were multiple versions of the "First Vision" story. The way Renlund talks about it illustrates another way that the leaders create an impression (in impressionable minds) that there really is no valid basis for having any doubts or concerns about any particular issue relating to the church. They create this impression...without actually addressing any of the specifics involved or explaining why the relevant doubts are not valid. In this example, Renlund simply says that he put the doubter in touch with an expert and, according to Renlund, the expert explained everything and all of the problems were easily resolved to the doubter's satisfaction by the expert. Of course Renlund doesn't provide any relevant details. Nobody in the audience has actually been educated on how the multiple, contradictory First Vision accounts are not a problem and a valid source of doubt. It's just implied. Nobody actually knows what the expert's explanation was. But in order to enjoy Renlund's talk, they reflexively suspend any disbelief, go with the flow and assume that the explanation by the expert happened and it was a great explanation, just as Renlund implied it was. Renlund's anecdote is just put out there as an example of how, in "cases" like this, none of the doubts ever turn out to be really valid because they can almost always be resolved in favor of faith by experts who know their stuff. That's the meme that is intended to be implanted in the minds of the audience. The meme: People have doubts about the church due to certain issues only because they're ignorant (maybe even "lazy learners"). There are no real issues or concerns that should ever cause anyone to validly lose faith in the Church's teachings and its leaders. Anyone can stay faithful and dispel their doubts by listening to a faithful expert's explanation, and if such expert is not immediately available, just set the doubts aside knowing that someday you'll find out why your doubts are not valid. That's the meme...and you don't want to spoil a good meme with specifics and details that may undermine the meme, so you just keep it vague, implying things that you want the audience to infer, without offering any details or specifics that support such implications and inferences. To the extent that you succeed in getting audience members to infer things that were actually never proven or demonstrated, such audience members will often go through much of their life mistakenly assuming that their inferences are just "the facts". A number of people in the audience who heard this presentation from Renlund most likely do believe that the problems with the multiple First Vision accounts have been resolved in a faith-promoting way because...well...there was that guy who doubted and then found out that his doubts were not valid when that expert explained it all.

[@corydensley7631]

Scientology and Jehovah's Witnesses also forbid their members from seeking outside information about their religions. Gee, what do these groups have in common? My mom thinks that it's horrible that these groups aren't allowed to dig deeper into their faiths, but somehow doesn't see it as a problem that the Mormon church also vilifies any information that paints them in a bad light.

[@kerryholyoak5720]

I go back to the good feelings I had while listening to Paul H Dunn’s stories. The feelings were real but based were based almost completely upon falsehoods.

[@kadehogg]

@@Wes-ry2of😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@kerryholyoak5720]

@@Wes-ry2of as shown by his own testimony

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Yep. Paul H. Dunn just made stuff up. But his stories were entertaining and fun to listen to. Compared to the typical monotone recitation of pseudo-scriptural drivel that characterizes most of Mormon sermons, it's no wonder that Dunn's talks actually made people have feelings (as opposed to feeling numb). And since the Church tells people that feelings that make people like the Church are the Holy Ghost communicating (and all other kinds of feelings are meaningless), you've got a recipe for instant testimony building right there. So when Paul H. Dunn told people about that time when he was the last surviving person in his squad, responsible for single-handedly defending a position of such strategic importance that the entire outcome of the war depended on him being successful against an approaching army of 10,000 Japanese soldiers and how he was all out of ammunition and had only his temple garments to protect him from the constant rain of bullets and hand grenades and mortar shells, people were all on the edge of their seats wondering how this had anything to do with Mormonism, other than the underwear. Then the answer came. Paul H. Dunn read that passage from Nephi, prayed for deliverance and promised to pay double tithing for 10 years. Then the Holy Ghost inspired him to make a baseball bat out of a tree branch, bless it with his last drop of consecrated oil, by the power of the priesthood that only worthy Mormons have...and...wouldn't you know it!...he then was inspired to start swinging that baseball bat like the first-round draft major league baseball player he was. And, brothers and sisters, miracles DO happen!! With every swing of the bat, he was knocking bullets, hand grenades and mortar shells right back at the Japanese, but with triple their original velocity. There was a lot of noise and commotion and screams. Eventually, Elder Dunn collapsed in exhaustion, not knowing what, if anything, had been accomplished. He thought "well, this may be the end, but I'm wearing my garments and I went out swinging". He waited for his eventual doom. But all was silent. Slowly, he stood up to survey the battlefield. All 10,000 Japanese soldiers were dead. Even a couple of light tanks of the enemy had been taken out. The position had been successfully defended! All was well. And that's why you need to keep going to church and stop doubting!!

[@Fatfinger4378]

Such a beautiful and heartwarming story! I feel the spirit!!!@@TEAM__POSEID0N

[@Caveman57]

Does anyone else feel the talks given by church leaders seem overly rehearsed and distastefully saccharine?

[@nolinpowe]

How the Mormon church handles doubts? Easy, they tell you to talk to the bishop about it and then the bishop tells you to pray about it and the circle continues on & on, see I just saved us 3 hours 😆🤣

[@monus782]

While I was still a Catholic I was told to consult a priest or look at the apologetics and I did that until I couldn't take the cognitive dissonance and rationalization anymore (and also realized some of the answers I was given couldn't stand to scrutiny) so I guess the Mormon church isn't the only one that takes this type of approach.

[@mjordan79705]

Reminds me of Steven Hassan’s observation concerning inculcating phobias in adherents.

[@erpthompsonqueen9130]

Thank you. Watching from Alaska.

[@randalljones3979]

When I was 8 I read The Wonderful Flight to the Mushroom Planet. Two boys build a "Spaceship" with debris from their garage under direction of an Alien from the Planet in order to rescue the people of the Planet who are dying off from an unknown disease. The boys fly through space with a Hen from a farm (to test the air). They save the Mushroom Planet when the Hen lays an egg. People are dying of a lack of Sulfur. The egg cracks, the smell of Sulfur alone "heals" the People, they leave the Hen, fly home, (the Planet is only 50,000 miles away). All in a week. I loved that book. The first book (214 pages) I read non-stop. I BELIEVED that book. There were ZERO discrepancies of logic, proof, or probability. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

[@johnrosbarsky1375]

It is more sound to start with wonder rather than doubt. Doubts can be combatted in many ways by ideologues. Wonder always leads to the inquiry of the truth and it cannot be suppressed by social institutions.

[@sewcellosusan8664]

One of my pastors gave sermon about Thomas. He loved Thomas because he showed us it is okay to have doubts as even Jesus' closed friends had doubts. Loved that perspective. (Never Mormon).

[@samandchucksmom2765]

I was born and raised in the church, and it wasn’t until I did a deep dive into trying to figure out if God is real. I am a doubter I have always felt like I was on the outside, and when I asked my bishop why I felt that way. He said it’s because you’re sinning too much. About three weeks ago, I had a vision that showed me that the LDS God is not real, that vengeful, angry, old, white man with a beard and his staff is not the living God. That God is dead as I have met a loving, kind, patient God. He has been actively trying to regain my trust through blessings. That is restless love, he left the 99 for me. I thought I was wrong and bad for having so much doubt, it’s not true! I’m so grateful for this channel! Thank you John and guests for the time and effort….. we love you guys…

[@Sentientdreamer]

The church loves it's use of shame and shunning... That 'parable' animation with the boat and fisherman is so telling to me.

[@rebeccacall7348]

Also the use of fear by making the water look dangerous compared to a rusty, but "functional" boat.

[@ArtsyTartsy0]

Greetings everyone from a NeverMo in Jacksonville,FL❤

[@ryanguinn5594]

I can tell you one thing I was dying from drug addiction and addiction to pornography smoking cigarettes and the minute I decided to get baptized, enjoying the church. All these things started getting lifted from me.

[@thelastgoonie6555]

So you got an expensive hobby...great! Glad it's working for you. You could have bought a Jeep and had the same result. That doesn't make the Book of Mormon a historical record.

[@jivajenmoreno-adams9984]

Replacing one addiction for another does work (temporarily). However, addiction is a symptom and until you address the reason your personality relies on external relief, you will remain addicted.

[@lynettemoody2741]

That was God not the church. Plus you probably felt loved and accepted. I went through the same at Alcoholics anonymous

[@hbendzulla8213]

Just listening to Mike, love that guy. 👍

[@anjuschka8735]

Great episode once again!

[@AlanZabriskie-tr2uj]

Mike, John and Nemo have more truth in their big toes than the Renlunds.

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

Oaks at 1:49:20. Dallin Oaks also said in an interview for The Mormons documentary that members should not criticize church leaders even if they are wrong. That statement interestingly made it into the Gospel Doctrine teacher's manual last year for the study of the Old Testament.

[@skyjust828]

That Mr (or brother) Rutland is better than Jeff Dunham 🤣😂🤣

[@tdanielmidgley]

There’s a really strong relationship between doubt and ridicule. Doubt doesn’t harm good ideas, but it’s fatal to bad ideas. In the same way, ridicule doesn’t affect good ideas or emotionally healthy people. Ridicule is fatal for a puffed up balloon or a fake idea.

[@lyndatracy2334]

Fantastic episode!

[@boxie13]

I had this thought about the wackamole metaphor and the framing of doubters having one issue than finding another and so on. I feel like they are priming the members to see the issues as separate on top of setting up doubters as the bad guy. It’s kind of setting up apologists to take down things issue by issue and take away the validity of the person trying to paint the big picture and get to the truth of things.

[@jamespeters9522]

Great podcast - thank you!

[@quacks2much]

One reason I call no one stupid is because in my 4 years of seminary I thought "seer" was just a word. It didn't dawn on me that it meant "see-er." Excuse me. I'm so dumb I'm going jump off a freeway overpass feet first to try to kill myself. (True story from a guy I know. He messed up his feet really bad.) The reason I left the Mormon church is because Satan deceived me and I didn't even know it. 😉

[@gomifunelives6085]

So you mean satan deceived you into joining and you left, or satan deceived you into leaving and now you’re back?

[@quacks2much]

@@gomifunelives6085 I have seen no evidence a Satan exists. However, I have had Mormons I debate accuse me of being influenced by Satan. Just before I became an atheist, I determined the Mormon church was false. I debated the validity of the Mormon church with Mormons. One woman told me her husband forbade her to continue to debate me because I was influenced by the Devil. I sensed I was winning that debate, so I was not surprised the husband cut her off. I find it amazingly easy to debate Mormons one on one or two (such as missionaries) because they seem to let their guard down more and admit things they wouldn't admit if they had an audience. For example, I got a missionary to admit he didn't know a god exists like they are taught to claim they know. The other missionary, however, maintained his knowledge, even claiming he personally talked to the Holey Holy Ghost through actual conversations like we were having. Like a dummy, I accidentally ended the debate by asking the missionary if he was schizophrenic.

[@harryfve5]

Without a falling away

[@jacobhholt]

Doubt is simply one element in the power of curiosity.

[@rachelhansen2417]

The idea that doubt is selfish (or even a choice) is offensive. I couldn’t control my doubt, and I feel so much more rescued from the ocean of anxiety by leaving. I read so many things that should have “inoculated” me when I was young, and nothing could hold back my nature of critical thinking. The choice I had in this was whether I acknowledged my mounting anxiety and dread, and I assure you, I tried to ignore it. It does not work.

[@kera9389]

1:04:17 gaslighting, the church is gaslighting all the doubters. It’s abusive.

[@heidisorenson4678]

I was taught the glory of God is intelligence, and the more you learn in this life, the better prepared you will be in the next. I am no longer a member. I was taught to question and find answers.

[@patricianoel7782]

Yes. Two years ago I learned that there were multiple versions of the first vision. I was appalled. I bought and immediately read, “Rough Stone Rolling “ by Richard Bushman. Since I’m retired, I quickly bought about 30 books on the facts about church history and doctrine. I watched about a hundred KZbin videos. After 65 years of total devotion and bi-monthly therapy, I’m finally convinced that I’m finished. GET OUT OF THE BOAT AND SWIM!ITS ONLY 6 INCHES DEEP!!!

[@sandee-zn9tq]

$1 Trillion Mormon cult of Q15 Cons is not a weathered dingy. It’s the world’s most expensive yacht!!

[@ZakMakoff]

Going back to the story of the, "kid in the boat" that boat probably wouldn't have passed "Safety Inspections" so that kid was just following his intuition... Just saying... LOL Great Episode, I love Mike and Nemo, they put a lot of research into their presentations! Thank you Mormon Stories! Big Hugs! Thank you

[@jennicablack]

I feel like with her saying that you have to ask for truth in the right way is just so people can be manipulated. For instance, asking God “Is this church false?” She is saying that’s framing in a negative way so basically you just have to ask “is this true?” When people do this especially after reading a good book like the Book of Mormon with hero’s and villains in it, of course the feeling they are going to get is likely yes it’s true. Ask anyone to read Harry Potter and then say a prayer after asking if it’s true and they will all get a good feeling because it’s a good story! I feel like they are framing it to make it hard to get a no answer.

[@kentthalman4459]

Mormonism is all about the intrinsic value in belief itself regardless of how much evidence there is against it.

[@TravisTuckett]

I am a nuanced morman who is still active. I am honest about my disbelief if people ask,, including my family, however, I don't push my understanding on anyone, including my children They can make their own decisions, including deciding what and when they want to learn what I have.

[@bzrkr842]

Why do you spell Mormon wrong?

[@perryekimae]

In rational thought, doubts and questions represent lines of inquiry to be excitedly pursued. In Mormonism, doubt is a pest to be beaten down.

[@iateabagelonce]

That Renlund clip that was all like "You wouldn't take financial advice from someone who's broke" is INFURIATING for all the reasons Nemo laid out, but also, this is something I was thinking of just last night - why are all our general authorities and modern prophets born into privilege, live extremely faithful and comparably sin-free lives, and generally have not gone through any mentionable rigorous process of repentance? Why are they mostly born into the church instead of being found by missionaries and then converted? I ask this because - what kind of example is that supposed to set? You can be a great Mormon just like this extremely lucky guy who's never known anything except Mormonism? Personally, I would relate much much more to someone who was called as a prophet or an apostle or even just a freaking stake president and was, for example, addicted to drugs and lived through it and got clean - someone who was a thief and saw the error of their ways and worked to undo the wrong they'd done - someone who's homeless and knows what it's like to live on the vestiges of society, what it truly means to be hated for no reason - someone who's bounced from religion to religion searching for the truth and yet came to believe Mormonism was the truth somehow - Why is it only men who live in the lap of luxury (compared to like 99% of the rest of the world) and have been Mormon and pretty much spotless their entire lives who get to be our leaders? Because I'd much rather take counsel, advice, and guidance from someone who's been through the wringer and has seen the worst the world has to offer and yet somehow lived through it and made it and wants to help others too. You know, someone who's a little more like Christ. It's become so obvious to me that not all church members are created equal here. No matter how many times someone pounds the pulpit and says that our sins once scarlet can be made white as wool, people who are generationally Mormon and have been in the church their whole lives are given more leadership opportunities, are trusted more, and are provided more structure and support than others. Ultimately, they are seen as "cleaner" than others, and their word at the pulpit is worth more. And as long as prosperity gospel is the foundation of Mormonism, which it is, the same goes for mormons who are not as wealthy as others, for unmarried mormons and more.

[@2mcarp]

Rather than using the metaphor of buying a car, how about this. The Mormon missionaries knock on Mr. Brown's door and he lets them in. They tell him about the Mormon church and he's interested, so he invites them to return the following week. When they return, he tells them, "I'm sorry, but I told my pastor that I was having doubts about his church and was thinking about leaving for Mormonism. My pastor told me to 'doubt my doubts' and stay in the boat. So, I'm sorry, but I can't talk to you, because you are causing me to doubt my faith." Isn't asking people to doubt their faith a fundamental part of the Mormon missionary experience? But, if we reverse that, the CoJSoLDS tells us to doubt our doubts in Mormonism. So, they are telling us to never doubt what they say, but doubt everything else. Isn't that an appeal to authority cognitive bias (or fallacy)?

[@aanchaallllllll]

0:00: 📚 The Mormon Church has a long history of handling doubts, but with the rise of the internet, doubts have become more widespread and accessible. 12:00: 📚 The internet has made it easier for people to access and consume information that challenges the church's teachings and history, leading to increased doubt and questioning among members. 25:00: 🔍 The Mormon Church uses manipulative tactics to discourage doubt and keep members in the church, particularly targeting youth. 34:25: 🤔 Sister Renlund discusses the importance of starting with the assumption that the church is true and the negative consequences of doubt. 49:23: 😡 The speaker mocks and belittles those who have doubts about church history, blaming them for their own doubts and portraying their concerns as insignificant. 55:19: 🔍 The talk frames doubt as evil and promotes fear of looking at sources deemed unreliable or coming across people with problems with the church. 1:06:59: 😡 The speaker characterizes doubt as evil and uses fear and emotional manipulation to discourage questioning and control information. 1:22:12: 🤔 The Redlands use mockery to teach youth that the Mormon Church is the only source of truth, but this is a dangerous belief. 1:35:40: 🔍 Elder Corbridge dismisses secondary questions about the church and claims that if primary questions are answered, secondary questions become insignificant. 1:43:18: 🔍 Elder Corbridge's talk discourages members from questioning secondary issues and focuses on the importance of affirmative proof through revelation. 1:47:58: 💔 Dallin H Oaks, a member of the Mormon first presidency, advises against research as a response to doubts about the church, prioritizing faith in the Lord Jesus Christ instead. 1:57:34: 🔍 The Mormon Church discourages doubt and questions, promoting a culture of avoidance and burying one's head in the sand. 2:07:40: 🔍 Discussion about Joseph Smith's openness to knowledge and information. Recap by Tammy AI

[@jeannycastro2379]

Did anybody catch at the beginning the part where they talked about the nutrition? As in what the captain of the boat was feeding the kid vs what he wanted to eat? Interesting because as a never mo married to a Mormon for 20 years I always wondered why was the Mormon church “feeding” their members with such weak and shallow rhetoric? Why do I a non Mormon seem to know more than my ex Mormon who was born and raised Mormon and went to seminary and did his 2 yr mission and got married in the temple (1st marriage) and checked all the perfect Mormon boxes? Do you think they know they are feeding their members less info than they should but they still want the kids to know that being fed by the church is better even if what they are feeding you is mediocre? Not sure anyone caught on to that detail.

[@jamesricks]

They told the boat analogy criticizing the person who judged the boat for being cosmetically imperfect. The real reason he got out of the boat was because he could see safe land, and they we’re heading in the opposite direction. He then pulled up google and realized he was in the boat with someone who was convicted of murder a while ago, and numerous sexual crimes. Yes I’d rather take my chances of drowning and swim back to shore than be somewhat comfortable in a boat that is taking me away from truth

[@monus782]

Growing up Catholic we had a metaphor very similar to the boat story but I remember that it was supposed to be some sort of second Noah's ark representing the Church and the waters around it were basically hell or something like that, another way the metaphor falls apart is that you may also realize that the boat is going absolutely nowhere because the water is shallow enough you can walk your way to land so you get off while the people in it beg you not to because they think you'll drown (I remember seeing a comic showing this but I don't remember where or what's it called though).

[@UmWhaaat]

1:23:48 My thinking is why would you only get reviews on a product from the manufacturer or company selling it? Obviously going to be biased.

[@reaganshumate726]

If you have so many moles in your yard that they keep popping up and won’t go away, there’s a deeper problem. It’s not the occasional mole; it’s a colony. You can either ignore them and leave them to ruin your garden OR you could find out what’s causing them to show up and get rid of them from the source.

[@anarchisttutor7423]

Regarding Whack-a-mole: why is building faith done line upon line when it comes from a place of hope, but must be a one-and-done when it comes from a place of doubt?

[@hannojaanniidas9655]

An alternate interpretation of the animation : the fisherman doesn't maintain his boat. It's really unsafe.

[@ryanhollist3950]

I think the word you were looking for to give a title to Nemo is "harbinger."

[@monus782]

While I was Catholic doubt was never treated as evil in itself but it wasn't encouraged either (at least when it comes to some of the core doctrines) , at least in the parish community that was close to being our equivalent to the FLDS (minus the polygamy but with more anti-Semitism) and DezNatz "giving in" to it was considered a sin that needed to be confessed and I did that very often after a certain point but the doubts kept piling up until I couldn't take it anymore and decided to closely look at the doctrine. We also had a very similar metaphor to the boat story but we called it a sort of new Noah's ark that represented the Church itself and the waters around it were basically hell from what I remember, previously to the reforms of Vatican II in the 1960's the Catholics tended to have a similar approach when it comes to those dissenting but excommunication is rarely done publicly nowadays (one of the more famous recent cases were the Danube Seven who were a group of women who tried getting themselves ordained in 2002 which led to the founding of the WomenPriest movement, in Canon law you can get automatically excommunicated if you do something like heresy or apostasy so I guess technically I excommunicated myself without anyone else knowing when I rejected Original Sin in its entirety nearly four years ago) so especially under Pope Francis they've softened a bit. At least for us being called a "doubting Thomas" is not considered a good thing and while you guys get called lazy learners we get called "fallen away" or "poorly catechized" when we doubt or leave altogether, alot of people left after all the reports about the abuse going on came out especially around 2002 so maybe the access to the internet has affected most churches in some way. We were sometimes also told that the Church is supposed to be a "hospital of sinners, not a museum of saints" whenever someone complained about all the hypocrisy (and abuse) but to me that falls apart if things like sin aren't real to begin with. I don't know what you guys think of ProgMos but I sympathize with people who stay in the Catholic Church to try to change it from within while knowing all its flaws but I just didn't feel I belonged there anymore after rejecting most of the core doctrines and all of the liberal Catholics I've told my story to haven't tried to bring me back into the fold which I appreciate (can't say I expect more conservative members doing the same, at least in my experience they'll gaslight you like people in other churches also do). 1:38:26 in my experience some Catholic apologists will say something similar to the question "where will you go?" if you leave but in our case since we were supposed to believe that the sacrament of communion is 100% the literal body and blood of Jesus they tell you won't find Jesus anywhere else (nevermind that the Orthodox churches are just as old and have sacraments that are recognized by Rome as valid), thing is when I started seeing he had no reason to die in the first place without Original Sin or the Fall I stopped believing in his divinity and the Resurrection as well and that's when I realized I was no longer a Christian in any meaningful way. So I guess that the "we're the True Church" rhetoric I heard not only made me reject Catholicism but Christianity as a whole and I've heard many exMos say they had a similar experience in their case as well (I still believed in a deistic sort of god until last year when I finally started calling myself an atheist so rejecting Christianity doesn't mean you have to go straight to atheism).

[@Lovecatholicfaith]

53:26 OMGssss it was ridiculous. 😂 I think they basically asked members to not questioning nothing 😢

[@dianethulin1700]

On the subject of wives speaking and appearing with their apostle husbands; I saw something recently where Susan Bednar was talking! A true modem day miracle

[@ninaschultz6922]

Love this episode, thanks 😊 Mmh, when serious doubts are raised they should be cleared up imo, or there may be a risk. When in serious doubt I'd be intent on keeping my mind very ope and clarify to my full satisfaction. Serious doubts are serious 😮 wanna clarify sooner than later, don't I? ❤😊

[@hanover2577]

Still love you Lexi! Superb episode!

[@rubyh8420]

That is so creepy and cringy to shame people who have questions or doubts..

[@rob1978]

Joseph Smith isn’t around with his peep stone so I trust my tarot cards.

[@lauriewilliams3402]

As an elementary teacher, I have serious issues with the Renlunds’ talk and the vocabulary they use. Also, regarding Oaks suggestion not to research….what about D and C telling us to work things out in our minds.

[@danp1969]

The boat analogy is missing one thing to be accurate. In the analogy there is only one boat. The analogy used to be which boat in a harbor full of boats was headed to the correct destination. Truth is, the ocean is full of boats and they are all dented with chipped paint. No need for the boy to chose between shark invested ocean or the only ride to dry land. The boy can switch boats, but the boat he is switching to will be similar. Of course, the Church's value proposition used to be that their boat is the only boat not dented with chipped paint and a hard of hearing pilot. Now the narrative has changed to the Church is the only boat that exists, not which boat to get into. It is also interesting that the focus has switched to staying in the flawed and imperfect boat vice getting others onboard the awesome cruise ship.

[@philbrooks5979]

I would ask LDS members, if your religion is true, then what's to fear from any investigation? Having doubts and asking questions should reaffirm your religion, No?