Polygamy & Abortion in Joseph Smith’s Nauvoo - John C. Bennett Pt 2 | LDS Discussions Ep. 50 | 1854

[@ninaradio]

Re: William Laws’ use of the word “issue,” at the time, issue was commonly used as a formal term for referring to someone’s biological children (as opposed to ones who were adopted or otherwise fostered). So, for example, you’ll see legal writing of the era talking about how the estate of someone who does without a will should “be divided among his issue,” i.e. split between his kids. So Laws is just trying to use very careful and formal language to say Joseph avoided having babies with all his spiritual wives. Perhaps he’s finding it too uncomfortable to get into the weeds of the more lascivious parts of his past life, so he’s using formality as a distancing tool. Or perhaps the situation of that affidavit felt formal to him, so he chose to use the most high-minded and careful wording he knew. But all he’s saying with “issue” is children.

[@analyzingmormonism]

I love this! Additionally, the word "issue" was also used to refer to a woman's menstrual cycle.

[@shannons5790]

I can’t believe none of the hosts knew what the word “issue” meant in this context. 🤦🏻‍♀️

[@carbine090909]

" ​@@analyzingmormonismmy ex husband came up with "inventory reduction" for a woman's menses. Not the best as a husband, but right up there with thinking up ways not to say something. 🤭

[@Zeett09]

A while back I heard the term Frontier Sex Cult. The more info that comes out the more I’ve come to agree with that term. Wow! Thanks for the great episode!

[@jamestrek2570]

Mormons mid-1800s: Pimps of the Wild Wild West. 🤦🏽‍♂️

[@gordons-alive4940]

For God!

[@anjelikag]

I can’t imagine doing all of this research for this podcast. It would probably make me dead inside.. BUT I love to listen to these episodes. Thanks for the breakdown and for making my work day fly by!

[@carbine090909]

It's no wonder Emma denied polygamy to her son. The church is her son's legacy, it's his fortune, and she is ashamed of her husband and herself.

[@whitajeman]

My mind has been blown on almost every discussions video, but this one has to take the top spot now. There is so much info that I'm probably going to watch for a second time tonight.

[@radicalkelly59]

In the late 90's I saw the play "Quilters" at BYU. It was about the experiences of pioneer women in the 1800's. Included, were the abortions that were being had back then. As a young, believing, and naive Mormon at the time, I remember feeling shocked.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

Are the older screenplays available to read?

[@user-mn447]

@@alisterrebelo9013I just googled it.

[@debbieshrubb1222]

I think abortions were common in the 19th century into the early 20th century. My grandmother who was not LDS talked about how she prevented pregnancy (sponge in the vagina) and referred to ways of causing an abortion without going to a doctor.

[@ninaradio]

The abortion discussion clearly at least nudged Mike out of his comfort zone, but I’m so glad you all went there. It’s really important to understanding the experience of the women who were coerced into that system. And even if you can’t reach a firm conclusion about Bennett’s participation, I think some aspects of the various testimonies are telling on a larger level. Both faithful Mormons and those who left the church bring abortion up as a common practice, at least where plural wives are concerned. That seems quite telling. And it’s so interesting that some faithful Mormons were comfortable-in the post-Brigham Young, open polygamy for the sake of raising up seed era-with alleging abortions were an important part of making Joseph Smith’s early polygamy work. Even if they were telling lies to sully the reputation of someone they no longer liked, they were also making clear statements that their leader was having sex with many women for the sake of sexual pleasure alone. Which really tests how far the God of the Book of Mormon would let his prophet stray from the way without being struck down.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

"God of the Book of Mormon" - as a Christian never-mormon, this is one of the few times I've seen the intellectual honesty from someone in the Mormon/Ex-Mormon world to make the distinction compared with the God of the Old and New Testaments.

[@bartonbagnes4605]

Obviously "sexual pleasure" never entered the picture for Joseph Smith Jr. When he "wrote" an excuse for practicing polygamy into The Book Of Mormon in 1829, would he then wait over 13 years before implementing the practice? After there were way more people to object? Martin Luther and John Calvin had no problem with polygamy, because it never says anything against it in the Bible, and many of the Prophets in the Bible were polygamists, God himself saying that he gave King David all his wives, and took them away because David committed adultery. Martin Luther even signed a letter giving a German prince permission to practice polygamy, when the prince asked him if it was allowed. But what Martin Luther did have a problem with was God's covenant people, the Jews, he wrote a book that in english is titled On The Jews And Their Lies, this book was the basis for the treatment of the Jewish people by the Nazis. This is verifiable history, no slader, just facts.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

@@bartonbagnes4605 At a minimum, that is an argument from silence to say God instructed the Old Testament patriarchs and prophets to take multiple wives, God did not make such a command or instruction. But if you find such a verse, I'll change my mind. The verse you mention, 2 Sam 12:8, references the *transfer* of Saul's wives to David, for it was not their fault that Saul sinned and God shows his benevolence to the women. 2 Samuel 12:8 KJV - 8 And I *gave* thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if [that had been] too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. "..and took them away because David committed adultery". Aren't you contradicting yourself here? You've implied earlier in the post that Saul and David can marry multiple women, so how can David be guilt of adultery?

[@bartonbagnes4605]

@@alisterrebelo9013 Do you not even know WHAT adultery is? When you sleep with someone else's wife. Bath Sheba was married, and not only did David sleep with her, getting her pregnant, he murdered her husband and married her to try to cover it up. And what did God do when Aaron and Mariam complained that Moses had married a second wife, an Ethiopian at that? God reprimanded them both, and gave Mariam Leprosy. And what did he do to Moses? Nothing. God did command any man who had a brother die childless, whether older or younger, to marry their wife and raise up children in their name, no exceptions for if they were already married and had children. ANYONE who refused would be publicly ostracized. Why did God command this, and with such a strict punishment? So the inheritance of Israel would not be sold, traded or given to non Isrealites, so when the Children Of Israel return to the land of their inheritance, no one else would have legal claim.

[@sheliabryant3997]

@nina. X 93 million. 🌈

[@williamwallaceg2627]

I’m embarrassed I was so naïve and gullible. I appreciate the exposure but I feel so deceived and lied to. Everything unique about the “church” is shameful and disgusting.

[@sadiecosmos7512]

For those who couldn’t catch what Julia said, adjust your playback speed to .75x. Great knowledge, Julia! 😊

[@sweetsuzanna]

She is so knowledgeable but her speaking speed is too much for me to follow, and I speak fast. This is why I no longer follow her on social media. This issue is not just this episode.

[@sadiecosmos7512]

Totally valid! Hopefully she sees this feedback and applies it in the future.

[@iffyangel3380]

Nope. Then John and guests are too slow! Not worth the back and forth!

[@Velmahepcat]

I agree, she speaks very fast but doesn't clearly enunciated or vary her tone. I mean this only as constructive criticism.

[@iamjustsaying1]

When THAT MANY people are saying that abortions were taking place, I wonder why there is such a hesitancy to just believe them. Is it because so many that are saying it are ("angry") women? If you need men saying it to believe it, you've even got that (ie Hyrum Smith). John nailed it in saying there is enough talk about abortions being done to believe it; and I believe the women.

[@michelle5784]

I really liked hearing Mike's skepticism and evaluation of the sources in real time, it added even more validity to all of the other LDS Discussions podcasts because it showed how meticulously he verified the sources he shared. Thank you for an interesting and enlightening discussion!

[@TheEuniceBurns1]

Mike is nothing if not meticulous!

[@hi_its_stephen]

Great episode with a lot of interesting sources to consider. As John points out, it paints an interesting picture of what may have been going on. This is just an interesting point to share when evaluating quotes from the 1800s. An example from this episode that came up is William Law's use of the word "issue." In the 1828 Webster dictionary, the word means to flow, like an issue of water from a tap. It also means progeny. Ex: "He had no issue," i.e., no children. Today's definition of "issue" was only used back then as a legal term that would appear in cases of law. When in doubt, look up the word in an online dictionary close to the time period. It can be helpful!

[@claudetterush1086]

This usage of "issue" as offspring is commonly found in the Bible too.

[@nadineevans5195]

The reason we might find the use of this word in the Bible is because the Bible was translated into English in King James' time period, and that word would have been used in this way during that time. As an aside, a random thought: maybe Joseph Smith was sterile....

[@ginafrancis4950]

@@nadineevans5195 Or had a very low sperm count as he grew older cause he did have 3 children with Emma.

[@RaechelArgento]

Oh goodness I’ve never been able to catch a live before and it’s LDS Discussions! My fave! How did I get so lucky today???

[@AnUnlikelyArkie]

It makes sense that Sarah Pratt's name was trashed. That was Joseph Smith's method when he gets rejected from someone he wanted he asked to be his plural wife.

[@VerticalGastricSleeveSuccess]

Great video. Lots of info!! I also tend to talk too fast especially when I’m excited. Thank you for slowing her down a bit and having others do the readings so we can keep up.

[@phoenixflamefeather]

maladie galante(/ma-la-di ga-lant/) is French, it's quite old fashioned and I think it probably is a euphemism for either sexually transmitted infections or for pregnancy. Maladie = illness, galant can be used to mean romantic or chivalrous... I would read it to mean "...professionally treated the consequences of the sexual indiscretions of the high priesthood..."

[@sheliabryant3997]

@phoenix. X 186,000! Read I Samuel, ch. two [Non-jst, of course] Eli's sons not only extorted the "tithes", etc. but demanded how they wanted them COOKED (NOT according to the proscriptions of the Law). Worse, however, THE PRIESTS engaged regularly with the women who "served" at the Tabernacle doors (IN THE TRYSTING TENTS). ELI, being much aggrieved by his sons' appalling behaviors - "which caused the people to HATE the sacrifices" - pleaded with those "sons of Belial" PRIESTHOOD HOLDERS, but to no avail. So the "Man of God" turned up to advise them that THAT PRIESTHOOD would be brought to an eventual, but certain, end. [Also because of the GREAT AMOUNT OF WEALTH they would attain in, and by, it. v. 32] And IT. WAS. brought to an end IN the JESUS born of Mary in Bethlehem; crucified BY THE SAME DAMNED PRIESTS in Jerusalem, and raised by HIS OWN SOLE priesthood power in the garden where He had always retired and was buried. Which means that THAT raunchy PRIESTHOOD IS. NO. MORE. [See also Malachi 3, non-jst]

[@fudgeb0t]

Yes ! That was my thought exactly. They use so many euphemisms in these old letters and affidavits that "maladie galante" could very well mean "an illness of the romantic kind", which could range anywhere from bickering between lovers to STDs or pregnancies.

[@wilburwhateley2683]

Damn, you beat me to it. After hearing these four struggle with the pronunciation, I had to get up and look at the screen. Thank goodness for that French education; once I saw the words, I knew how to pronounce them, but I mistranslated the term 'galantes' to refer to the liver or gall bladder. Well done, @phoenixflamefeather!

[@New_River_Trail]

I came to the Comments to say this, but checked others' first. It's a historical French euphemism. Think of it as "maladies of gallantry." In other unrelated sources it's been specifically spelled out that this means VD, STDs, sexually transmitted infections.

[@mylifewithmarmalade4624]

1:46:38 “Issue” is a somewhat archaic term but still used as a formal legal term for children of one’s own, synonymous with heirs. So here they were remarking that it would be highly improbably under normal circumstances for him to father no children while regularly having intercourse with that many women of childbearing age. So either he is making the whole thing up and isn’t actually having intercourse with them, or he’s infertile, or something is being done to prevent conception and/or births.

[@sanecatlady77]

Voluntary abortions have always been common historically, just as pimps and sex traffickers forcing their victims to have abortions is a standard of their trade to this day. I have no trouble crediting Mrs. Pratt's testimony on this basis.

[@tawnyachristensen7310]

Great discussion and also the thought in my mind is more clear that John C Bennett and possibly other midwives are the reason that there doesn't seem to be any issue from JS' s polygamous wives. My guess is JS probably influenced these women to take care of any embarrassing ( issue) at this time until it could be lived openly. No wonder JS gave so much power to Bennet, they were two peas in a pod and had so much dirt on each other.

[@bartonbagnes4605]

Was that why Joseph Smith Jr. excommunicated John C. Bennett? Because they were two peas in a pod? Use your common sense please. And why did Joseph Smith Jr. wait over 13 years after "writing" an excuse to practice polygamy into The Book Of Mormon in 1829, when there were way more people to object, including those who had openly left The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints? Obviously "pleasures" had nothing to do with it.

[@Decision_Justice]

Joseph Smith Jr. did not wait 13 yrs before philandering. First off we don't know what he engaged in behind Emma's back. And as of 1833 he was already seducing a teenage housemaid whom he and Emma had adopted as an adopted daughter. @@bartonbagnes4605

[@malindagunderson]

Massively important and impactful show! Thank you so much!

[@mormonstories]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@anoriginalcreationx]

1:11:43 using one of my new favorite tools for understanding what things mean (ChatGPT) using the prompt: What does the following quote mean: "Treated professionally the maladies galantes of the high priesthood" and I got this response: The quote seems to suggest addressing or handling the romantic or courtly issues of the high priesthood in a professional manner. The term "maladies galantes" might refer to romantic difficulties or challenges in a refined or elegant context. Edited to add: My interpretation of this would be that the Romantic Difficulties of the high priesthood that would require a doctor would seem to be pregnancy or infections and that they were being dealt with in a professional manner does also suggest a doctor's care.

[@Brad14397]

Disappointed to see John react so viscerally to the topic of abortion. It is healthcare and self determination. I felt Julia’s standpoint was shut down in favor of some bogus “45% of people see abortion as horrifying” argument. I find the best conversations around polygamy are between female scholars since it lessens this kind of dismissal and feels more emotionally honest on women’s issues.

[@IAmJustOneMom]

“Issue” is & was a term referring to progeny in legal docs.

[@Wren402]

Back in the sixties my mom told me that the church hadn’t taken a political stand on abortion because it taught that the soul didn’t enter the body until birth, while many other religions taught it happened at conception. Was that church doctrine? Is it still church doctrine?

[@PARebecca]

I am enjoying these discussions and I really appreciate the skepticism. Religion requires you accept doctrine hook, line and sinker, and we all know how well that doesn't work out for the believers. If we all practiced a tad more skepticism in our day to day lives, then well religion would not even be a thing..

[@bartonbagnes4605]

Okay genius, what would you have without religion? Without any Deities to state good and evil? With each person's opinion as valid as the next? The strongest and most violent would run everything, taking whatever and whoever they want, to do whatever they want to them. Children raised with no concept of love.

[@trudes4415]

Can’t wait to listen on Spotify! Just showing the love here too…really enjoyed the first one!

[@claudetterush1086]

I learned that John C. Bennett was a first class snake in late 1960s seminary. You definately rounded out the story. Well done!

[@jdarkwind]

BTW, "maladies galantes" means venereal diseases.

[@phoenixflamefeather]

I was thinking either this or pregnancy... in any case the consequences of the sexual indiscretions

[@shannons5790]

I would love to see a podcast about how rampant STDs were at this time amongst Mormons. Ann Eliza Webb Young’s Wife No. 19 book spoke a lot about women who would go mad in polygamous marriages, even during pregnancy. I’m wondering how many possibly suffered from syphilis (as, if left untreated, it can lead to insanity).

[@nadineevans5195]

​@@shannons5790I'm sure it was rampant in all societies during that time period, so I don't know how telling them information would be. There were no real treatments. Babies born to women with STI's could carry some types their entire lives.

[@shannons5790]

⁠@@nadineevans5195I think you’re missing my point. I’m obviously not looking for a numbers report and I realize any sect of society is vulnerable to STIs. I’m interested in human stories on how or if they were even recognized, what was done about them, who got the blame, what (if any) consequences were there based on societal beliefs at the time, etc.

[@DeathValleyDazed]

@@shannons5790LDSTDs good catch there. Joe Smith’s slogan: Let’s Do Snatch!

[@kellystarlight7025]

Yes!! Friday night and I just got super excited to have a new MSP to watch!!! Lol. Who would of thought?? I find these stories fascinating🎉❤

[@byonnoyb]

Please, please, please....STOP saying "when Joseph Smith was martyred"....he WASN'T a martyr!!!!!!

[@believeinnature8930]

It will more effective for listeners like me who speak English as a second language if Julia speaks slow! Please!!! Thank you!

[@janet-Spirit_of_the_Living_God]

You can always watch the replay and change the viewing speed to slower under the "gear" icon on the screen.

[@nadineevans5195]

Even for native English speakers, it was like a rapid fire machine gun.

[@iffyangel3380]

@@janet-Spirit_of_the_Living_God then John and other guests are too slow with slurred speech!

[@jamestrek2570]

JS Mormon History. Ages like sour milk 🥛

[@bartonbagnes4605]

Only the questionable third hand accounts written decades after the alleged events. The reliable first hand accounts age like fine cheese.

[@jamesbyrd6922]

"Issue" in a biblical sense refers to descendance . Thus due to the interventions of Bennett and others, Joseph had "got no issue".

[@isaackotter1797]

Has this channel ever done an episode of the council of 50? I’ve heard that Joseph Smith was crowned King over the house of Israel but I don’t know if that was symbiotic or not.

[@analyzingmormonism]

That would be SO fun!

[@Decision_Justice]

Yes, it would be great to hear them go into the minutes and records of The Council of Fifty. Channel MythVision has a series on this with Bryce Blankenagel.

[@mary-je7gb]

That never happened

[@hopscotchlemonade]

I am disappointed in how many people are asking a group of men to wrangle Julia’s speech. I understand she speaks somewhat quickly. However, she is not the only guest who has spoken quickly by a long shot and some of the other fast talkers were men. I think she needs to have space given to her to think more as she is speaking. The men hop right in so quickly that she often gets run over and then it comes out that all of the things they were so speedily jumping in to say were in later slides she provides. I don’t think the men speaking over her is intentional, I think it is simply an implicit bias. And they give each other more room to speak and think than they do for Julia. There are other issues at work here that are not necessarily conscious efforts but simply implicit bias. She did the leg work, but Mike and John have loads to say before she is allowed to talk about what she thinks. I think the men need to slow down and give her some space and let her set the pace of the slides. I noticed in this episode that the did try a little harder to include Julia in the convo, but they were still speaking over her and covering her research before they moved to the next slide. I am loving this series and I am glad they have included a woman into the discussion since our voices are often left out. Also keep in mind that after a lifetime of being spoken over, people tend to have to rush to get their thoughts in. There is more at play than Julia just speaking faster than most people like.

[@helenr4300]

And you can change playback speed. I use it to speed up slow speakers, but can slow down if too fast...

[@Suzyslly]

Please ask Julia to slow down . She has a lot of great information but it sounds like her speech is at 2x speed.

[@egriffiths8993]

This! She has quite a strong accent compared to John (to British ears) sometimes it sounds like she’s slipping into Spanish or something.

[@Chezsey]

I had a hard time listening to Julia and finally abandoned trying. Maybe it's her mic? It's like there's an extra warble or syllable in her speech which makes it sound like she's speaking too quickly and her words run together. She has a lot of great info. Hope she will practice slowing down and separating her words from each other. It's just too hard for my brain to hold onto her words. Don't have a problem with any of the other speakers even when they are speaking quickly

[@shannons5790]

@@SP6ATOh, FFS! 🤦🏻

[@sarahparkin2869]

Aaaaand you could watch it at a slow speed just for the sake of taking ownership

[@marlenemeyer9841]

Thank you for having a balanced discussion.

[@DeathValleyDazed]

Yes, a balanced discussion about an unbalanced Mormon Church😂

[@ellieroo6719]

23:30 I’m surprised this didn’t get mentioned. The modern church plays the same word game as Joseph’s “polygamy” 👍 v “spiritual wifery”. 👎 Only now it is “plural marriage” v “polygamy”.

[@orisonorchards4251]

And lying for the Lord. They still practice that, too. Packer gave a whole talk about how the truth is not always useful.

[@sandaroocompilations5182]

I’m almost 40, did 4 years of seminary, 4 years of BYU and never heard of John Bennett until this podcast.

[@jimforman3754]

well , 1.25x playback worked until Julia...... jk, the energy and quick wits (compared to the boys) is impressive. "Issue" is a reference to live born children.... f I'm old.

[@yorgasor]

For Emma’s denial of polygamy, keep in mind that her marriage was destroyed by polygamy and was the cause of Joseph’s death. Her sons were leading a new branch of Mormonism where polygamy wasn’t practiced. If she admitted to her sons that Joseph taught and practiced polygamy, her sons would have been honor-bound to incorporate that practice into their church. I believe her denial was to protect her sons from the damage her husband faced. Who wouldn’t try to protect their kids from a life like that?

[@ColleenJohnston-t3j]

Julia you’re wonderful, but it sounds like you’re speaking at 2x speed.😅 This panel and these episodes are FABULOUS!!!

[@jenniferlane6720]

John have you done any podcasts on KZbin discussing where all the millions go that are collected by the LDS church/corporation? Who has access to all the $ excluding funds used for temple & ward construction? Thank you so much.

[@sweetafton5655]

‘Issue’ meant children produced. As in ‘issued forth’ not as a synonym for ‘situation’.

[@markvonwisco7369]

1:45:50 "getting no issue" means that Joseph didn't have any children with these women. "Issue" is archaic synonym for progeny.

[@Krebssssssss]

The sorting hat part was legitimately funny 😂

[@shannons5790]

Wife No. 19 by Ann Eliza Webb Young talked about how many of the babies in Nauvoo had questionable paternity (it was commonly questioned if a baby was Smith’s or the legal husband of the woman’s). Not all unwanted pregnancies were aborted.

[@bartonbagnes4605]

And yet the only descendants of Joseph Smith Jr. came from Emma, his first wife. As has been proven by DNA through the church on the forefront of ancestral DNA, or at least by independent businesses run by members. So many questionable children, yet none trace back to Joseph Smith Jr. 🤔

[@fudgeb0t]

I think it was brought up in past episodes that one way to be looking into Joseph Smith's polyandrous marriages (women having more than one husband) perks was exactly that : any pregnancy could be attributed to the woman's first husband. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the count of polyandrous marriages for JS was 10 or 11.

[@shannons5790]

@@fudgeb0tI think you are correct, good sir!

[@bryanpratt9380]

Issue: Offspring, progeny. 3rd definition (noun), Merriam-Webster Dictionary.

[@alexarobertson17]

lol I just made a similar comment! Surprised that none of these 4 knew that definition or synonym.

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

I'm pretty sure Todd Compton lists Fanny Alger as an actual wife of Joseph Smith in "In Sacred Loneliness."

[@jandunn3075]

The word issue has been used historically for offspring.

[@North_West1]

At “issue” is often used in wills or probate in 1700 & 1800. (Still used in probate today). “Died without issue [child]”

[@corinnecivish7673]

"maladies galantes" was a term used to refer to sexually transmitted disease, like syphilis and gonorrhea. Sq___ weed is pennyroyal. I'm in my 60s. I remember the church being strangely silent pre-roe decision, when it was being debated. They did tell women at the time that the spirit first entered the body with the first breath. In the case of the mother or the fetus the mother always had priority. Let's think about this critically for a minute. People used folk remedies ALL THE TIME. Any village midwife or physician worth their salt would know what common remedies in their region would endanger a pregnancy. And soon to be brides would likely to be counseled about what to avoid, to help ensure her conceiving and retaining. It wouldn't take all that much for the information to get around between sisters, cousins, etc.

[@function0077]

When it comes to whether someone is telling the truth or lying, it is also important to consider their incentives. I think Emma had an incentive to lie about polygamy at the end of her life, because she was trying to set up her son as a religious leader.

[@christinawilliams4853]

Just a quick comment from a never Mormon but a person in the medical field regarding abortion. Abortion has been practiced as far back as recorded medicine goes. However it was generally thought of as a women’s thing and therefore was something between the woman and her doctor midwife medicine man etc. it is only in the last century that abortion has been moved into the courts. The vast majority of abortions performed today are medical meaning they are using the same procedure that have been used for millennia only with better and safer medications. “Surgical abortions” are extremely rare and because they happen later in pregnancy are almost always due to severe fetal anomalies not found until the 20 week ultrasound or for the safety of the mother. As to when life starts no one knows. It is only recently that anyone has said conception because it is only recently that people could even tell they were pregnant that early. Classically life was designated to start either at quickening or using the Torah at the first breath.

[@colleenmartin9467]

The word "issue" used by William Law means "child" or "baby" or descendants. If a couple had three issue, that means they had three children. This term was used in my parent's day as well [1940-50-60's].

[@hadanihadani4044]

love u guys!! maybe there is so much material to get through and that is why julis talks so fast

[@billwatt3775]

Folks. Simply reduce the setting for "playback speed." Contol yourself not others!

[@rosemariebennett7213]

Poor Emma. At this point, she's exhausted. Shame on you , Joseph!

[@DrofJustice]

No no no! Issue means children in the law

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

What are everyone's thoughts on why Brigham Young didn't use abortion (or didn't use it much) when he may have known that Joseph Smith was using it?

[@ninaradio]

Well, for one, Brigham wasn’t trying to hide his polygamy. And hadn’t he shifted fully into embracing the teaching that polygamy was a tool for increasing the number of the faithful?

[@fudgeb0t]

I believe BY was much more inclined to following the teaching of polygamy and the fact that it was only permitted to raise up seed. You could argue that BY was the only one doing D&C 132 correctly 😅

[@hopscotchlemonade]

I understand Mike being uncomfortable with the subject of abortion, but it comes off as him simply not wanting to believe women. That message came through clearly once abortion came up. He seems to be looking at it through a modern lens rather than how people would have felt about it in the early to mid to late 1800s.

[@rosemariebennett7213]

Excellent presentation. How can i remain in this church!

[@stokenasty]

I imagine Emma was trying to stamp out polygamy for good in her family, and her son’s church, by flatly denying it. She saw firsthand the power of this idea and claiming authority from God through Joseph. I think she viewed lying about it firmed her son’s grasp on power. And what Mother wouldn’t do all she could for her son in her final months? 1:04:38

[@spookymicah3131]

Julia was great 🔥

[@brittanycox8603]

Love all the LDS discussions. Thanks!

[@klondike6223]

Also. "Issue" in a 19th c. context means "children". It's pretty straightforward (i.e., "issue from his loins" i.e., descendants... think also in terms of "issuing forth" referring to people coming out of a city gate or some such.)

[@ScottJB]

Fascinating. Thank you for this work!

[@Nora-xk5tf]

Thanks Guys. I understand ISSUE means offspring. Ever look up a historical figure in Wikipedia? For example: In honor of the King of Denmark, if you look up their Monarch tree. If the K or Q had no kids it will note in short bio Born, Date died, the Town, parents.... under Children it often reads "Died without issue. Or Bachelor, Widower, No Issue.

[@maureenjamieson9730]

"Issue" can also mean "children of one's own".

[@mouthymormonmetalhea]

Sarah Pratt needs to be noted in this episode as an eventual activist against polygamy. The following from Wikipedia but of course follow the footnotes and get co-oberating sources: Opposition to plural marriage and apostasy In 1868 Orson married his tenth wife, English-born Margaret Graham. Orson was 57. Graham was 16.[24] Incensed that Orson would marry a woman who was younger than his daughter, Sarah Pratt functionally ended her marriage to Orson Pratt, citing his "obsession with marrying younger women."[14] Sarah condemned polygamy, stating: [polygamy] completely demoralizes good men and makes bad men correspondingly worse. As for the women-well, God help them! First wives it renders desperate, or else heart-broken, mean-spirited creatures.[25] In 1874 Pratt testified on behalf of the Liberal candidate running for the position of Utah Territorial Representative to Congress, Robert Baskin. Baskin had accused his opponent, Apostle George Q. Cannon, of polygamy and said that Cannon's obligation to the Mormon hierarchy was greater than his loyalty to national law.[1] Sarah was excommunicated from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on October 4, 1874.[26] Describing herself in 1875, Pratt declared: I am the wife of Orson Pratt ... I was formerly a member of the Mormon church ... I have not been a believer in the Mormon doctrines for thirty years, and am now considered an apostate, I believe.[27] Pratt lashed out at Orson in an 1877 interview: Here was my husband, gray headed, taking to his bed young girls in mockery of marriage. Of course there could be no joy for him in such an intercourse except for the indulgence of his fanaticism and of something else, perhaps, which I hesitate to mention.[28] In 1878 Sarah was a strong supporter of the Anti-Polygamy Society and styled herself as a Mormon apostate.[29][30] Sarah's surviving children rejected the LDS Church.

[@skyjust828]

58:36ish Where Joe "slut shames" these good women the other women see this, they dont want to be on his bad side . This makes his (Joseph Smith) talking next victims easier to convince. 😢

[@TracieAviary]

I love these series... What coffee are y'all drinking, I wish I had that much pep when I give talks?

[@rosemariebennett7213]

Fascinating history..

[@joseleitao3588]

The “Cyprian Saints” are likely a reference to the Greek goddess of love and lust Afrodite. She is sometimes simply referred to as ‘Cyprian’, meaning, “from Cyprus”, on account of being thought as having been born on that island. So, basically, it’s the “Aphrodite Saints”.

[@klondike6223]

"Maladies galantes" is a French phrase that has to do with male health issues, e.g., erectile dysfunction (or possibly venereal diseases), which totally makes sense in the context of Bennett's other medical "work"; maybe he was prescribing mercury treatments to men who had contracted STDs (or other issues noted previously).

[@ginagruber1732]

Issue in that context is result of the marriage. If you look at the records of British monarchs on Wikipedia for example, you'll see Issue used to define children they fathered or mothered.

[@girlwalkswithgoats]

Mormon history seems to be a big game of two truths and a lie

[@bendyrland7213]

In my opinion. Polygamy is central to early Mormonism and the existence of abortions helps to understand how it took off and was implemented without the "consequence" of unwanted children.

[@reefshadow1]

Not sure if anyone has addressed the term "issue" but the term was commonly used to directly refer to offspring. So he was literally saying Jo never had children.

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

What about the pregnant women who refused an abortion?

[@ginafrancis4950]

They may not have had a choice.

[@paulie1532]

Nauvoo was certainly an interesting place at the time. And frankly it is no surprise joe got killed.

[@shannons5790]

Great episode! Julia speaks way too fast. She ends up tripping over herself a lot and/or it’s a race to keep up with her. Mike does this some as well. Maybe they need a Valium prior to recording? (That’s meant in jest… just maybe take some more time to speak.)

[@nadineevans5195]

I totally agree. I think it behooves anyone to listen back to their own episode and critically evaluate what they sound like on tape. Speech rate? Too many interjections? Etc etc.

[@Wren402]

I understand that the lambs blood on the door sounds like too much, but what about any of this isn’t too much?

[@personofinterest8731]

Regarding the blood thing on the door: I had one for many years, think it's called a Mazuzzah (sp?) and somebody (a member) removed it. It is seen as a symbol of protection in Jewish homes.

[@helenr4300]

they contain Torah verses and about its about writing the law on door posts and gates. Deut 6:9. Not about blood and passover story.

[@CLK7378]

For the women who "willingly" entered into polygamy and claimed it was great with JS would surely be eager to bear his children?? I mean, wouldn't it be a righteous display to bring up the Lord's anointed seed and a testimony to Joseph's so-called calling as a prophet?🤷 Rather, it is very apparent that polygamy was for the men. As a woman, I think I would talk about my rage toward these men and this practice more openly years later because the immediate physical threat was gone. That's a reality that women have to consider... that we have to shout louder to get anyone's attention and can pay a heavy price for it. Don't assume because a woman's use of colorful and emotional words makes her less reasonable or credible. It's just another way the patriarchy silences her truth.

[@rosemariebennett7213]

Where is Emma in all of this ? I heard she only knew of four wives

[@rebeccasirrine947]

In re: William Law's statement: when he talks of Joseph having "no issue" from the women, in this case, issue=children.

[@Mimi73161]

no shade here i am just utterly baffled how they got so many ppl to follow along and continue this religion....they must have been so charismatic or powerful or both....

[@rosemariebennett7213]

The believing Mormons now, will not think Hyrum lied. They believe Joseph could do no wrong

[@harryfve5]

The response from the “ new mos” will be fun. As a fan of courteous polemic I say game on.

[@paulie1532]

Saying joe was a “ flawed man “ is absolutely absurd. He was a terrible person. A con man. Without doubt.

[@Jsppydays]

I find it interesting that Joseph had him sign that paper that in itself is a biggest red flag out there. It covers Joseph if the men don't keep it a secret

[@ikaramba3954]

132 talks about Joseph making a sacrifice too… so the blood on the doorknob isn’t all that crazy.

[@sarahparkin2869]

Guys i kinda think Julia and Mike are talking at the same speed.... Its her accent and makes this a listener's issue. Lets stop trying to get people to conform to our inability to meet them where rhey are.

[@wmjas]

I think “maladies galantes” refers to venereal disease.

[@bendyrland7213]

Abortions we're taking place all over America (including the frontier) at the time. Why would it be any different in Navou?

[@Mimi73161]

really great show, thank you for sharing...

[@carlao7157]

Please interview Tim Sledge, author of Goodbye Jesus

[@mgeuleinstsear]

A comment to the quote around minute 16: I have watched so many documentaries about cults/cult leaders and most of them seem to build or rent a building just for abusing women (and sometimes boys). Only very few select have access to it. Not knowing before what would happen, women are then always stripped naked and have to perform some sexual acts with or in front of the cult leader. Sometimes, other women have to watch them. This just reminds me so much of what I have seen over and over again. I cannot imagine that God would command such a thing.