Mortal Online 2 - A Sandbox PVP MMO reviewed by someone who hates Sandbox PVP MMOs

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Do you like Hardcore, sandbox, open world, full loot on death, PVP based MMO's?
Because I don't.
anyway here's a review of Mortal Online 2.
Which is basically Mortal Online 1 with better graphics.
Seriously who thought asking me to review this would go well.
Thanks to my Patreon supporters and Twitch subs for making the videos possible :)

[@wernerolivier1134]

How to drink water in Mortal Online 2: 1. Learn the alchemy lore 2. Learn the biology lore 3. Learn the swallow skill: liquid 4. Learn the "pour liquid skill: water 5. Learn the elemental lore: water 6. Follow any god of water 7. Pray for 6 hours a day for "the blessing of drink water" 8. Unequip any helmet and weapon 9. Equip the "water holder" 10. Press both the Shift key and Ctrl key and then type the word "water"

[@creationsofmadness4867]

Plot twist, water damages you because you haven't unlocked swallow skill

[@merten0083]

@@creationsofmadness4867 you take extra damage over time because you didn't read the book how to breathe through your nose while you have water in your mouth

[@onlyontuesdays4483]

@@creationsofmadness4867 You start drowning

[@dreamcometrue461]

Wheres the button where i shove a knife in my head? Or do i need to learn to do that too?

[@FairyRat]

If Poseidon was the only God.

[@christianna4404]

I commend these devs for having the balls to provide Josh with a beta key after his brutal MO1 review.

[@Hoi4o]

It still creates exposure for their games. Josh might not like the game, but some of his viewers might get interested.

[@WolfCoder]

They are ＨＡＲＤ　ＣＯＲＥ after all

[@saladmancer4802]

The only thing hardcore about it is the drugs I'm gonna have to take so I can forget the experience Took me 1 year to fix some grammar errors because of the drugs.

[@Tomatosaladz]

They're the people that actually know how to take criticism.

[@makse10]

And then promptly ignore.

[@Probablyacowtbh]

"Whilst the game itself might not hold your hand. In a round-about way, you can hold it yourself" Beautiful, frankly.

[@prateeksharmakharel7678]

But isn't that kind of inappropriate?

[@larrymantic2635]

⁠​⁠@@prateeksharmakharel7678 you literally butcher your own corpse, how isn’t that inappropriate?

[@prateeksharmakharel7678]

@larrymantic2635 Dude butchering corpses is fine, but hand-holding is kind of weird to do. I come from a strict "no hand-holding household" that must be why it feels inappropriate to me.

[@varethedemon]

Phhht

[@nikbrickkbsgaming4117]

10:33 That strangeness your feeling about the city could be do to the fact that they are using 3 completely different architecture styles , spanning hundreds of years. Walls are Byzantine (Medieval), the main city houses are a mish-mash of all 3 Greek periods (Archaic , Classical and Hellenistic). And the cathedral in back is gothic period. It feels strange, and even if you didn't consciously realize it, your brain is still telling you something's off , even though everything looks pretty . Oh , also the starting area was a Tudor style village for some reason. its like they mixed several building asset packs together lol.

[@kq2488]

No wonder the city looked so awful. Thank you for info.

[@boscobiggs3429]

Also some of the guards in these cities are using Roman style armor instead of Greek armor. Romans used segmented armor whilst the Greeks used chestpieces with the muscle engravings on them. So not only are they using different models of architecture but they used different models of armor from two completely different empires.

[@nikbrickkbsgaming4117]

@@boscobiggs3429 Ooo nice catch Biggs. This is what happens when a game company skimps on the Art direction lol

[@BinkoBunko]

Not to mention the NPC placements remind me of Conan Exiles player bases with their crafting thralls lined up neatly for easy access wearing mismatched era clothing. Yknow, completely utilitarian design for a PvP survival game?

[@JaneXemylixa]

The colonnade around the plaza is a dead ringer of the colonnade around Piazza San Pietro in the heart of Vatican City. It's a copypaste of an insanely memorable and famous (and copied by imitator architects a million times) landmark. And the gilded column things on pedestals remind me strongly of Neoclassical. Which is 18th century pretending to be 1st century. It's a world with zero art direction besides "it looks old enough i guess".

[@Hotshot2k4]

So basically: "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe", the video game.

[@RobertoRafaf]

Must buy a book about making pie, but alas that knowledge is only useful if you first buy a book about crusts and another about pie fillings, but of course the book of pie crusts requres you to buy books about the different materials of pie crusts, like the different flours and butters to use, and the fillings of course need you to buy at least the book for fruits and the one for apples. But of course, you didn't forget your pie lore history book on how they made pies back in the 1800s right? Otherwise how can you cook. Because we know you can't cook otherwise. Are these "hardcore players" such snobs they think this complicated system is "hardcore" and "realistic"?

[@opossum6077]

@@RobertoRafaf Of course... you have forgotten a key aspect of the pie making process... You must first learn how to read in order to learn how to make a pie. To learn how to read, you must make a Duolingo account, and then send video evidence of mastering at least 5 languages. Then you must beat Minecraft. Why? Because complicated = realistic.

[@jackal9545]

@@opossum6077 Oh but you're forgotten that you need to learn the skill of making an account, they only tell you this when you've already managed to find your way through 17 convoluted menus just to find the registration. And of course the people in the game will flame you for not knowing the script of the original shrek movie and will keep boasting about their 25th hard-copy.

[@jimmythecrow]

all you need is flour and ingredients. How hard is that? People now a days wouldnt have survived in video games 10 years ago. Hence why alll you guys care about is graphics, thats literally yalls #1 priority in gaming. Should quit and go watch tv instead cause thats what you really want to do

[@Hotshot2k4]

@@jimmythecrow The problem here isn't the joke, it's that you don't understand it. If you take "from scratch" to its most extreme interpretation, you have to start from square one, which is literally the creation of the universe. This game's crafting system takes so many steps in order to do something basic, that it reminded me of that humorous quote by Carl Sagan. The frog is dead now, I hope you're happy.

[@Cyberjesus2006]

A big problem with hardcore games is that they don't understand the difference between being complex, being complicated or just being plain convoluted

[@FlamespeedyAMV]

Being boring too

[@saltee8460]

Maybe try the game before shitting on it.

[@gaijinkuri684]

@@saltee8460 Regardless of gameplay, you can see how unnecessarily convoluted everything is without any real reason for being so convoluted.

[@dizzy_eevee]

@@saltee8460 nah sorry i only play good games

[@saltee8460]

@@dizzy_eevee What's a good game? WoW? NW? LOL

[@deevee5327]

"Most of the navigation is done from memory" Aka a 3rd party website interactive map, just like with all of these "hardcore" games.

[@yurigagarine6998]

Second monitor no jutsu.

[@ardynamberglow3124]

Or better yet, draw your own!

[@gregs9210]

bad game design

[@ArmoredarmadilloX]

Aren't all those maps made by fans?

[@AvengingMikon]

@@ArmoredarmadilloX Fans are generally under “3rd party creations”, yes.

[@joshprice4855]

I'm of the opinion that if a game isn't going to "hold my hand" and explain a thing to me the thing needs to be naturally intuitive. I don't understand why facilitating discovery and being intentional immensely obtuse is considered the same thing.

[@NicholasBrakespear]

This is very much a basic design principle for any game; that which is not explicit should be implicit. That which is not immediately apparent, should nudge you along a path of potential discovery. This applies to gameplay mechanics, and level design. But a lot of developers mistake "not bothering to explain stuff" for "leaving it to the player to discover". Leaving things for the player to discover still requires a lot of work; in fact, one could argue that it requires more work, because what you don't explain must be crafted with greater care to ensure that the players DO discover it.

[@IzzySarru]

@@NicholasBrakespear They also need to make it actual gameplay. Navigating menus and the wiki for answers definitely isn't gameplay.

[@BigPuddin]

@@NicholasBrakespear Exactly. It's incredibly easy to introduce byzantine, cryptic mechanics that are ill if not at all explained then state that the game "isn't holding your hand," but it's much harder to have mechanics that the player can discover intuitively. It takes talent. The devs for this piece of shit lack that quality.

[@Bollibompa]

@@NicholasBrakespear You should only know how many that bashed Demon's souls and Dark souls for the exact reasons that you write. There are countless threads on Gamefaqs and similar old forums about "bad game design".

[@23Butanedione]

@@Bollibompa yeah I was going to say that. Pretty poor take

[@14Blackspirit]

Actually someone said it very well. "In pvp mmos there are wolves (veteran players) and the wolves need sheep (new players) to survive (play the game). Without sheep the wolves need to turn to each other and kill themselves and so the wolves get thinned out until the last wolves starve to death." That is basically every hardcore pvp mmo in a nutshell. The best time is the beginning because some sheep turn into wolves or the sheep help each other to thin out wolves becoming wolves after a while themselves. After the initial "new blood" there is barely anyone trying it out because the world is full of wolves hunting themselves and they try to help the sheep grow in population so they could hunt them down one day.

[@irfanm6852]

this is very well said

[@Sorrowdusk]

Would periodic server resets help?

[@tomislavterek5544]

Sheep evolve brains and make games where wolves can be tamed to work in farms which feed sheeps.

[@NeiasaurusCreations]

Im a wolf that never f*cked with sheeps. I only went after other wolves. There's no sense of victory in a fight that isn't a challenge. Tis the same for pve, if a raid or boss is easy to the point it cant possibly harm you, you gain absolutely nothing in the terms of pride for winning. You're just going through the motion for gear or achievements, not for love of it.

[@MrQwertyman111]

@@NeiasaurusCreations So you're that excemption that actually prooves the rule to be right. Because most people playing games such as this, are kids or people taking joy from griefing others. Just go and watch how popular are vids here on YT of people trolling/griefing others in pvp mmos. And don't get me wrong, I've been part of communities is certain games that wanted to build big stuff and have massive battles where working together was the key. But in the end, most people play to be massive dicks and spoil others fun ;)

[@dousan6515]

"Now, while the game won't hold your hand, you can hold it yourself." I WASN'T READY FOR THAT LOLOL!

[@Aiphares]

fuck man i was just drinking some water when he said that... had to pause to clean

[@ShiningDarknes]

you can hold both of your own hands

[@asteryon_]

Such a realistic game! We all remember the 16th century mining riots where the miners were demanding pickaxes instead of torches for mining ore

[@xbon1]

It was a dark and stormy night when the miners decided to take matters into their own hands and stormed the castle of the greedy lord who owned the mines. They were armed with nothing but torches and a burning desire for justice. They hoped to find some pickaxes in the lord's armory, but they were sorely disappointed. Instead of pickaxes, they found a pile of feathers, a collection of porcelain dolls, and a portrait of the lord's pet poodle. The miners were furious and confused. What kind of lord would hoard such useless things while his workers suffered in the dark? They decided to teach him a lesson and set fire to his precious belongings. The lord woke up to the smell of smoke and ran to his armory. He was shocked and outraged to see his treasures in flames. He grabbed his poodle and ran out of the castle, screaming insults at the miners. The miners chased him with their torches, hoping to get some answers from him. But he was too fast and managed to escape into the woods. The miners never saw him again, nor did they ever get their pickaxes. They had to go back to their mines and continue working with their torches, hoping for a better future.

[@diewott1337]

I swear it's impossible for a new writer to not write "It was a dark and stormy night" at least once in their life. It's part of the initiation, a thought sent by God 😂😂😂

[@Dudebrotheguy]

As some one who learned leather crafting, wood working and masonry by just doing it I cant imagine why the game doesn't allow you to make simple(or even not so simple) things by just trying I mean the first leather vest I made looked cobbled together and was ill fitting but it helped me learn what not to do for the second one Same goes for the first wooden table I made Make it look bad or have bad stats, cost a lot more resources but let people experiment

[@notspacekeeper]

You're dead right. And the thing you almost never see in fantasy medieval settings is that people couldn't read or write. No one could read except for members of the religious establishments, some aristocrats, and certain other professions where it was a necessity. Go back just 200 years (let alone 600+) and every other man (and every two women out of three) you meet are illiterate.

[@Dudebrotheguy]

@@notspacekeeper Kingdom come had reading as a quest to learn Also we as in all humanity lost a ton of knowledge due to the fact that some of the best craftsman thru ought history ware illiterate Even today we lose knowledge because people feel they aren't qualified enough to write it or they just don't care to do so

[@TheOrian34]

Some good games do have their crafting system based on making the things to gain experience and being more proficient at it.

[@sehrgrossesglied5000]

truth is , u actually can do exactly this in the game . for basic stuff u don't need skills or books , u can even craft armor from skinned dead player if nothing else's around. or ur dead horse , or cook a soup from greens u just picked with water u just collected from a nearby lake . basically this review is misleading at best , showing a guy who is/was just not able at all

[@sehrgrossesglied5000]

the game even tells u that and other vital stuff in the basic , brightly highlighted tutorials lol

[@TheKruxed]

Hardcore vs obtuse, Difficulty vs unfairness, Intricate systems vs lack of direction Most 'hardcore' games get these core systems wrong and they get them wrong because its far easier to make the following vs the proceeding

[@GruppeSechs]

"Hardcore" is a compliment this trashfire doesn't deserve.

[@stuglife5514]

If there’s anything I’ve noticed about games, it’s that hardcore only works when your game World is realistic and well fleshed our and tight knit. For example ArmA. It makes sense in ArmAs game world for it to be brutally hard, But it wouldn’t make sense for call of duty to be the same.

[@brunosaraiva8437]

dot

[@user-zu1ix3yq2w]

learn 2 spell, nerd

[@ckopen7192]

i started playing it after watching this video cuz the game looked interesting, and after actually playing it i gotta say he really overexaggerates a lot of stuff, and makes some things seem more complicated than they actually are. i dont blame him for that, because he was clearly just confused, but for the most part all of the "hardcore" systems arent nearly as overbearing and complicated if you take the time to learn them.

[@DarkNaifu]

23:50 So in order to fry an egg, I first need to become a master chef, study the history of chickens... And of course, I need bread and bacon, so baking and butchering..

[@GruppeSechs]

No, that's to hard boil an egg. To fry one, you need to first splice avian DNA in your lab to create chickens, but you first need 20 books on genetic engineering after reading 50 books on basic biology.

[@NipapornP]

Without the knowledge of proper forging, for crafting the necessary frying pan, you won't get anywhere. Of course, you need to read all the metal related books...

[@JAMLASICAAA]

@@NipapornP For that, of course, you need advanced mining skills and knowledge of the ore youre attempting to mine. You will also need a pickaxe and boi does it get fun there

[@forog1]

Lets not forget the most important thing. You need to buy the book " The Element of Fire" and another book "Fire Starting" and then a skill level you would have never seen before tell you studied these books will appear called "fire making". You need level 5 or higher Fire Making skill to start your cooking skill. But unfortunately you need a tool that takes 3 more books to even start fires. To start fires and you need to Find Out for yourself on what that tool even is. You also need the "Fire Safety" (Optional) book or else you would have a 70% chance to catch your character of fire killing you on fire start after 5 seconds of being on fire, you know, for hard core... Good Luck. This is about what I get from watching this game.

[@jimmythecrow]

no, you need to put the egg in a campfire, thats it.

[@Otome_chan311]

I think there's something to be said for what the game seems to be going for. Player built cities warring against other player built cities, all items crafted via blood sweat and tears, full loot pvp and guilds being formed around that. However, you've clearly pointed out a lot of problems about the game, that goes *against* this goal. There's no reason to have crafting be obtuse. There's no reason to have the basic beginner gameplay loop be so bland and difficult. There's no reason to have such sterile cities.

[@HawKiew]

Yes, this game has problemas that are unrelated to it being a full pvp sandbox game. Compare that with other games in the genre like Ultima Online and you'll see that it's not the genre that feels wrong in MO2, but the execution. Even if they were aiming for theme park it would still have the exact same problems described in the video.

[@sehrgrossesglied5000]

finally reasonable comments , ty

[@badbeat787]

To craft you put materials in the open slots on the screen and press the button. It's actually pretty cool how they managed to make such an easy system with such depth. Gets even easier if you interact with other players and get them to share their methods. Or if you really wanna go wild, and this is completely optional, open up excel or notepad and start experimenting and recording data. Or just click sparking sprites that tell you how to progress in your themepark, to each his own.

[@sophistrionics]

​@@badbeat787 When everyone else is saying something is bad, and you are the only one to claim that "It's Good, Actually!" while also putting down some of the most successful creations in the genre... you're the one with bad taste. I'm not sorry.

[@badbeat787]

@@sophistrionics nowhere in my post did I knock your games pal. you just said you'd rather follow the herd to be shown what's good and what isn't, and you still think your opinion can affect me enough for you to specify that you're 'not sorry'. you are cute

[@Khabaal87]

This looked like the most barren, boring and uninteresting MMO I have ever seen in my life.

[@HookerHeels]

Honestly, I've seen Minecraft and Roblox MMO servers more inviting and immersive.

[@vida2559]

I save you a lot of time.Dont try EverQuest , UltimaOnline or Rune scape.Bcs if you want to reach something in this games than you need to do about it.

[@vida2559]

And this will shock you but if you want to be a wizard its not enough to have high int and mana you even need specific item for the specific spell like coal or sulfur.Its really boring I know

[@kimrasmussen7188]

life is feudal looks even worse.

[@sophistrionics]

​@@vida2559 Oh, come off it. RuneScape is far more engaging than this asset pack collage.

[@victorvolf3990]

"And it's worse than the sword you start with". I felt the pain in that line 😄

[@fenchellforelle]

reminds me of that weird weapon scaling in anthem where your starting gun was actually stronger than the rarest legendaries

[@GruppeSechs]

@@fenchellforelle Dark Souls mace flashbacks.

[@vqnate2640]

@@GruppeSechs wat lmao the scaling in dark souls is so intuitive, literally every piece of equipment is viable

[@GruppeSechs]

@@vqnate2640 wat lmao that's literally the point.

[@Krytern]

@@vqnate2640 /r/whoosh

[@ShermTank7272]

There's something to be said about not having _overly_ convenient mechanics for a game and having players work for it, but there is a fine line between "needing to put in effort" and "needing to dredge through the tedium"

[@GeorgeMonet]

No there isn't.

[@starsiegeRoks]

@@GeorgeMonet actually yes, there is.

[@TG-ge1oh]

@@GeorgeMonet No u

[@nallen1006]

@@GeorgeMonet Sure there is, if a game wont let me skip the tutorial, im out. Done before it even starts. Fuck that im not 5, i can figure shit out for myself. I dont need to dredge through 2 hours of hand holding before i can play the game.

[@diewott1337]

​@@nallen1006I don't think I ever saw a game with a 2 hour tutorial. Skyrim at worst takes an hour.

[@DrZaius3141]

For something like that to actually work you need: a) An easy to reach cap to power - so new players can actually join at some point without having to work for years to catch up. b) An impetus for automatic alliances - "this city is bad, because it's not the one I started in" is a great start, because if there are factions, it means that players from your faction benefit from lifting you up instead of just farming you. Instead, people like that helpful player on voice chat will either stop playing or stop their actions, because in a dog-eat-dog world, only the most sociopathic, vicious and egotistical dogs survive. And no-one wants to play in such a world.

[@endryju1]

a) you can literally kill guy with top tier stuff using basic sword. You just need to learn blocks and counters.

[@somerandomgamer8504]

@@endryju1 Then what is the point of making armour or weapons if all you need is a fucking torch? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[@endryju1]

@@somerandomgamer8504 hymmmm lets think... TO DO IT FASTER AND EASIER?!

[@chowder130]

@endryju Sounds like you are a noob who needs to git gud if you actually need better gear to kill enemies faster. Mad cuz bad.

[@luminatron]

@@endryju1 farter

[@AndresLionheart]

23:25 Forgot to mention that not only are they lined up in neat rows, some have their feet going through the floor while other are floating over it. Seems like the devs used the same coordinates for every npc without considering their height. This is only a problem because the coordinates spawn the character from their center, if coordinates were set to start from their feet (or if the npcs were affected by gravity) this wouldn't be a problem. Anyway, with some more polish and a playable combat system I could see this being fun if I could just sit down every day playing for 12 hours and not do anything else. With limited time due to life and other games this is out of the question.

[@JangoDripDrop]

That’s why there are books you can learn while not in the game. Every skill you can level while not in game. The stuff it takes to craft gear isn’t hard to get at all. They made getting gear easy because you will be loosing it a lot in battle.

[@bahlivern1054]

Seeing that row of NPC trainer reminded me of these WoW privates servers where you started level 100 and every starting zone was filled with NPC that would sell you max level stuff

[@pdot421]

Same

[@KanetsidohiKanotoush]

The first time I played Aion, the npcs at the starting village were all over the place minding their own business There was a big update, the starting village was "renovated", and the npcs were all aligned, and static like shown in this video :(

[@drakain54]

Those were some scary days in my childhood

[@henrik1743]

SAME lmao! Kas-WoW

[@trevorweisberg8470]

Ragnarok private servers for me. I was expecting one of them to auto-level you and have job changes for free.

[@KoutetsuSteel]

24:05 ...but why... why is it so needlessly overcomplicated? I know it's hardcore, but I didn't think it was boinking you up the arse levels of hardcore. At least buy me dinner first, yeesh.

[@Hellxdamage]

I don't think it's usual to have dinner before BDSM.. :D

[@lv100Alice]

@@Hellxdamage dinner is usually after

[@protestthebread1046]

Crafting has a higher upfront cost, but buying all of those books is a one time requirement. And while this might seem a cop out, the game is actually designed around the player getting lost and discovering things, banding together with other players to learn from or teach them.

[@AFnord]

@@protestthebread1046 In reality that seems to mostly encourage wikigaming though. Make the basics so obtuse and people will get in the habit of checking a guide or a wiki online to find out what needs to be done.

[@chaplace]

I think some people confuse 'hardcore' with 'poor game design' really.

[@luluMusicGamesMovies]

Honestly I love hardcore RPGs but making it an MMO just seems to prove self destructive based on what I've seen. I'd rather have a really well done hardcore single player experience or maybe something with a few friends then worry about being grifed by other players all the time :/

[@WlatPziupp]

Green Hell was real fun with a buddy. In multiplayer you respawn whereas single player reloads a previous save. It's a difficult survival game that doesn't explain much until you learn it yourself, set in the rain forest so it's full of natural challenges like keeping a fire from being rained out and hostile wild life. It has a story where you need to explore the map to progress, and the crafting system encourages experimentation by showing how many more ingredients you can add to make something, but not what they are. So when you find or make new materials or just try a new combination of things you already have you might just stumble on something useful

[@marcussmith4913]

why cant you and your friends group up and kill the lawless murderers?

[@ILikePi31415926535]

You've talked about "Quit Moments" a lot in past videos, and I new what you meant but never really internalized it. When you started the crafting system I had my first real "Screw this, I'm not learning 14 skills" moment 😂

[@khosmo7097]

The smug players and the game flaming Josh for his new-ness is like verbally abusing a baby for not knowing how to count numbers like it's a given.

[@rrohbot]

THAT BABY BETTER START LEARNING QUADRATIC EQUATIONS OR YOU DON’T WANNA KNOW WHAT I’M GONNA DO TO IT

[@TheZenytram]

@@rrohbot more like, this baby better know how to tripple integrate a quartenion logarithmic function or else....

[@Arigator2]

'hardcore pvp' players are the worst. All their games go to zero. They're only fun if A) you're an asshole. and B) you're better than most of the other players. People quit when they realize they are not better than most of the other players. Which causes other people to no longer be better than most of the other players and they will soon quit. This continues until almost nobody is left.

[@GC_Rallo]

Nah, not the same thing. He is playing a game that prides itself on being difficult and complicated, as well as having many aspects of the game be a mystery that each player has to learn about for themselves, etc and faulting it for being difficult, complicated, and not easy to follow. It's fine that it's not his cup of tea, but he doesn't say that, instead he acts as if it is objective fact. Just like he acts like it is objective fact that MMORPG's today NEED to cater to solo players to be viable, it's just not true unless you are trying to create a game that competes directly with WoW/ FFXIV/ whatever-other-shit-MMO. People enjoy Mortal, and there should be games for people that want this kind of experience. If everyone followed this guy's advice there would be absolutely nothing but WoW-clones on the market, which was the reality for years and it was awful.

[@0grilo0]

See mortal teachs life lessons without even playing it... Not a douchy veteran. But i plaied this for years and it was Amazing, althougt Theres way more to the game then waht he talks about... Mistery and secrets are part of the game.

[@Phex1]

"while the world chat is flaming me for not knowing all of that instantly". Jep, my experience as well. My favorite comment "Go back to WoW" after asking if there are tooltips that actual tell me what stats do in the game.

[@philmehrart]

Lol getting toxic shit talking from people telling you to go back an MMO with probably the most toxic community xD

[@kreenect]

And then they will ask, why are no more new players play this game?

[@musikalniyfanboichik]

cuz unintuitive = better remember, filthy casuals

[@musikalniyfanboichik]

@@kreenect doubt they really ask this question. quz filthy casuals ofc. but devs probably do, yes.

[@Phex1]

@@musikalniyfanboichik Yeah, i played some "hardcore" pvp with full loot and stats loss on death mmos in my time, but all off them gave at last hints how the Systems work. MO2 gives you nothing to work with, i wanted to play an archer so my instincs went to take the "elven" race and focus on dex. After several hours i crafted a bow and it Was actually a decent one. But then i learned i couldn't use it because my Lack of strenght to pull it. After some Research i came to the conclusion i could never use the bow i crafted because my decisions at the character creation no matter how long i would grind my stats. So only option was to delete the char (you can only have one) and start New What is this adding to the game besides frustation?

[@virtueofabsolution7641]

This honestly makes me think of one of those mmo kickstarters where they go “yeah yeah! Let’s do this! And this! And that! And also this that this that!!! BUT HARDCORE!!” And then, the UI/design guy goes “oh yeah! Plus what about a skill tree for crafting!” And it’s that one jpg where there’s a boss and he throws the guy out the window.

[@badbeat787]

Close but it's just a guy who played good mmos in the 90s and wants to keep the dream alive

[@vihaanreyansh6244]

I was actually interested in this game, so I popped into the MO2 forums and saw a thread for PvE servers. I was intrigued so I clicked on the thread and it was exactly what you'd expect; people asking for a PvE server and MO fans calling them "soyboys". I passed on this game in the end.

[@sarahd2623]

The suicide button made me laugh. It felt like it's just there for when you get frustrated at the book system.

[@randomusernameCallin]

There are some games that players want a suicide button.

[@Solo8812]

I have a feeling someone will be able to build a meat and skin farm around that

[@bestguywhotellsitlikeitis]

Pretty sure I saw this exact comment on another video about this game.

[@Vashiim99]

Sometimes it's for when you're stuck in some terrain or geometry, thus halting all gameplay without help of a gm you may have to wait a long time for.

[@unbearifiedbear1885]

I have _definitely_ murdered my character out of rage before

[@Ch1l1C0nCarnag3]

Being a new player in Mortal Online is like you've been Isekai'd to a Fantasy World, but as one of the helpless peasants that are going to get slaughtered so the protag has a starting quest.

[@baronsengir187]

Great comparison 🤣 Not even as Gazef Stronoff. Not even Enri Emmot Dad. Or you can look at it like beeing Ainz just at LvL 1. If you do not have the help of a Touch Me coming to help you. And that is definately not the fun part.

[@soapydandy]

That is very very appealing to me. honestly the grind and difficulty make me believe that achieving something in the game will feel very rewarding. After getting blasted with useless gear and irrelevant rarity in games where everything is handed to you, a game like this makes me wanna go at it. Too bad it looks so barren and desolate.

[@lemonlupinreuben5362]

@@soapydandy just play a rpg like elona then

[@BigPuddin]

@@soapydandy It isn't. It's like ripping off a bandaid. It's only appealing because you're not losing anymore, but there aren't any systems in place that make doing so worthwhile. Hell, Gothic series suffers from this problem, and it actually has a real story, plot, characters, and interesting systems. But once you clear that hurdle and bridge the power gap, it all becomes easy as to the point of enduring sheer tedium. Now imagine a game made by people less talented than Pirahna Bytes. Terrifying, yes? And I'm actually a fan of their games who's saying that. You're not achieving anything meaningful with this grinding because the game simply doesn't reward you with anything more qualitative than being able to effortlessly stomp on helpless noobies who can't possibly fend you off. There's no meaningful world building, story, or characters to get invested. It's just shitty, obtuse mechanics, grinding, walking vast, empty spaces, occassionally engaging in shitty combat, eat, rest, repeat. It's not good. Don't bother. You've been warned.

[@jamesryan099]

yeah so i guess when I start playing mortal 1 I'm gonna be playing re:zero simulator and just getting fucked every five minutes till I can figure out how to get past something

[@Those_Weirdos]

*Hits tree with torch* [Skill]Intelligence increased to 41 *chefs kiss*

[@motorb1tch]

i like how the biggest and most prominet button of the character / level screen is "suicide"

[@skullkid325]

The funny thing about games like this is that the players are their own downfall. They go out of their way to make the experience as miserable as possible for new players, not just through gameplay but through mocking and insulting people who need help and then they wonder why the game is dying lol

[@Ythiro]

not trying to justify what Hard core players do but, that's more like a trial to see how much pressure new players can take, because they are going to die>tilt>quit anyway... back in the day playing ArcheAge, the guild leader would say "if they can't stand us PK'ing our own faction or can't take jokes/personal item(gold) loss, they don't belong in this guild" but in MO is in a larger scale because even before you get "hooked" in the game, the game and large part of the community wants you gone.

[@shippy1001]

@@Ythiro That`s the issue with going hardcore, games are meant to be a fun and thrilling experience, if it`s frustrating we humans just don`t do it, now if you like to have that feeling it probably means that your regular day life is so good that you feel the need for bad things happening somewhere, casual players are still players, most people don`t make a game their second job or life.

[@MarvMarvensen]

@@Ythiro So I am just worthy to play a game if I am willing to get my ass spanked and eat shit? Silly me thought I am playing games to relax after work and have fun...

[@TheStephaneAdam]

@@Ythiro That's not gaming, that's abuse. That sounds like a battered spouse explaining to me her husband only beats her when she deserves it.

[@shinkamui]

@@shippy1001 the sad part of it is that it is satisfying… for the party on the top of the power dynamic. Thats why developers mist step in, cause the stablished playerbase is having a lot of fun driving out the new people

[@notatrollll]

Are we not gunna talk about 16:06 in a city with no living people or players, suddenly a person on a horse ride up a stair case indoors at a blacksmith?

[@gamerdweebentertainment1616]

Totally normal phenomenon.

[@lorgarmor5886]

Good that I scrolled through the comments to see if anybody else stumbled upon this.

[@GruppeSechs]

It seemed pretty standard in a game with no direction or pacing whatsoever. Wouldn't have bat a lash at a dragon walking up those stairs. The game's basically a Skyrim mod simulator.

[@pineapplejuice6339]

Edgy hardcore realism.

[@Jrock420blam]

As someone who has played games for over 25 years, anyone that calls a game "hardcore" really means, "the game I am talking about is filled with lazy game design, with a ton of systems and is devoid of content."

[@archonwarrior9146]

To sum up the cons of crafting from someone who played several hundred hours as a crafter: The game does not tell you a single thing. It does not even give you the option to write anything down for you, it EXPECTS you to do everything outside of the game, this being either tedioulsy recording every possible combination of materials and their outcome.... or simply use tools that calculate that for you if you cant bother to do that on your own for hundreds of thousands of combinations. The game does not help you in any way getting into the crafting system. There is a basic tutorial now, but it tells you basically nothing except for go gather some materials and then craft something that we have already unlocked for you. If you want to craft anything else there is no indication on what to do. The skills are split up into action and profession skills. Action is mostly combat and world interaction while profession ist mostly crafting and material knowledge. Skills are also divided into secondary and primary skills. While you have a limited amount of points to spend on primary skills, secondary skills don't require points, although they mostly have a primary skill as a prerequesite. The limited amount of profession points makes it impossible to master multiple crafting areas. My char was barely even able to max everything required ONLY for refining Ores to Metals and had no more points left to do anything else. The efficiency is calculated on the actual skill of what you use/want to craft AND the Level of your Lore for the specific materials you use/refine which itself is a nice system, but due to the limit on primary skills you are pretty limited in your choice if you want to craft efficiently. The game almost forces you into an int/psyche based char when you mainly want to focus on crafting as your stats give an inherent bonus to certain skills. If you dont play a char with high int, you will have problems with your profession points when it comes to crafting skills. The decision on what is a primary skill and what not seems stupid. The game would have been much better if the roots of the different skills would have been primary skills and the children secondary with a reduced amount of total points to spend on primaries. Lore skills should have been all secondary. The game does a lot of things right, but at the same time has systems that turn these good things into terrible things.

[@Kfo221]

I saw that this essay didn't have any likes or comments. I didn't read it myself because it's so long, but I'll give you a comment and a like because it seems like you worked really hard on it.

[@sehrgrossesglied5000]

not being able to max even one profession incl. lores forces player interaction i.e. content in Mortal , no. Also you can be pretty flexible still: As a foot fighter I can do - crafting 2 of 3 Bow types at 100 + most used wood lores - armor crafting at 70 (so def stats are maxed , all pts after only increase dura, not needed) + basic lores for light and medium armor - butchery for common mobs in my region - taming horses and being able to control 2 horses

[@archonwarrior9146]

@@Kfo221 Well i played the game for 300+ hours. I really liked it, excluding the pvp aspect, because it was rewarding once you go through literally studying the machanics of the game. I'm just someone who doesnt enjoy forced/unbalanced pvp.

[@archonwarrior9146]

@@sehrgrossesglied5000 and that means you cant do f.e. Weapono crafting at all except you are willing to waste all the time you spent on learning bowery or armor crafting, and if you would do so you would have to rely on other people for materials for smithing because (i tried it) you cant do the whole refining and smithing tree together. Maxing out refining took almost all of the profession points a char has leaving you with almost nothing you can do in the profession tree because you need the full lvl 100 in the refining skills, unlike for the crafting skills, to get the maximum amount of materials. Even as a fat mage it took me abouth 800 points to level all the refining skills (at least in theory, practically i never got to that point). What im saying is that by doing that and NOT giving you the option to create several characters without buying a second or more copies of the game, the devs heavily limit the players "freedom to do what you want" because factually you cant do everything you want. You can only do a portion of what the game offers you at the same time. And as probably no one is willing to just dump a char they put hundreds of hours into the devs basically force you to buy another copy if you want to experience other parts of the game.

[@WeirdWizardDave]

Yeah the idea of these games always sounds good but the reality has never been enjoyable for me. I think it mostly stems from the fact that people play games like they are a person playing a game, not a person living in a world. People playing games enjoy randomly ganking people, jumping around, building absurd monoliths and all the other gaming stuff that is generally only fun for the person doing it not everyone else around them. Mortal online 1 is one of the games that taught me that.

[@elwiseguy69]

Very true. I enjoyed my time as a hunter in MO2s stress test but quickly realized I’d be constantly ganked while hunting in Beta/Full release. I know that’s kinda the point but it just sounds like an unnecessary amount of time to do the most basic of things.

[@WeirdWizardDave]

@@colbyboucher6391 That does sound like a step in the right direction. For these games to work the developers need to think, not about player freedom but about how to implement systems that allow players to build functional societies. Even then though I think the ideal game would be populated primarily by NPCs as they can be programmed to behave, unlike players.

[@shiuido359]

Perhaps, ironically, these tools already exist if you want to use them. People either aren't that interested in protecting new users, or new users aren't that interested in asking for help.

[@WeirdWizardDave]

@@shiuido359 Which goes back to my original point. People play games like they are people playing games, not people living in a society. I suspect that is an irreconcilable problem on MMO scales. Smaller scales with heavy moderation and gated entry is likely the only way to achieve something manageable.

[@user-zu1ix3yq2w]

There's this idea that "just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should" that doesn't really apply to games. In fact, for a lot of people, the implication that you can do some thing is an invitation and permission to do said thing. The devs say "this is possible" and it gets interpreted as "I can do this? I'm allowed to do this" and what was made possible becomes the expected norm. Just because something is possible or allowed doesn't mean it's the *point* of the game. But that's how gamers interpret it. It's also like one state being acceptable of something, so the criminals from other states flock to it so they can safely commit their acts without fear of repercussion. It becomes a cesspool where all the trash congregates. That was vague, hope it made sense.

[@aurondoxon3805]

The gameplay loop is you getting lost 90% of the time and reading guides online while you're afk "training" your resting buffs

[@TheZenytram]

but first jump from a high place so you also train your regeneration while afk

[@kooken58]

That's the losers way out! I brute force my way through the first Mortal Online, refused to look anything up and it was quite the memorable experience. Especially the time I got lost in the world and had to have a friend come rescue me because I couldn't find my way back to town lol.

[@TheZenytram]

@@kooken58 tHaTs tHE lOSeR WaY..... are you seeing how ridiculous is what you are saying.

[@kooken58]

@@TheZenytram Minus the whole more "joking" response it really is dumb. Game guides in books were dumb in the past, and they are dumb now. Many people prefer games that don't hold your hand the entire way. And while the game could use a bit of a basic tutorial, leave the rest for players to discover.

[@frosthammer917]

@@kooken58 There is a world of difference between "not holding your hand the entire way" and "everything is super obtuse and overly complicated with 0 explanation". Zelda: BotW doesn't hold your hand, yet it is one of the most successful games in recent history. Obviously it is a different genre and has a different design philosophy but it shows that a lack of hand holding isn't what makes games like MO unpopular.(and not that anyone excpects MO to be as popular as BotW but it could do a lot better than it has done in the past). Plus there are many harsh survival games that are quite popular as well. A hardcore sandbox PVP game can still be intuitive and easy to understand the basics. overly complicated != deep gameplay, obtuse mechanics != hardcore.

[@57precision]

The devs were very smart in making the "suicide" button so prominent upon opening the character panel. That's exactly what I would want to do if I was forced to play this game.

[@hovsep56]

his PTSD must have been unbearable when he started playing mortal again

[@darkholyPL]

This game feels like work. I don't play games to feel like I'm back at work.

[@Arigator2]

You need a better job if this reminds you of work.

[@dr.d4025]

MMO's might not be the right genre for you.

[@Kalgert]

@@dr.d4025 Come now, there are MMO games that feel like proper games rather than a day job.

[@Darthus]

Say this to people who play minecraft.

[@starblaiz1986]

@@Arigator2 Having a better job would only make his comment more valid...

[@kylehofmeister6906]

The biggest problem with these games is that 99.99% of the time, if you can't figure something out, you alt tab to google for the answer that the game didn't provide you. Its counter intuitive and more immersion breaking in the long run. Its makes more sense for a NPC or in game guide or book to be able to guide you through the process. Its like in Escape for Tarkov, I would bet damn near everybody has the map and extraction points open on a second monitor until you start to memorize it.

[@Blazed099]

As someone who just found out about this game and your channel on the same night. This was a very well done and professional review of a game and genre you stated clearly you don't like. your review seems fair and honest about the game.

[@yahootube90]

Rule #1 of game design: You have to protect players from themselves. I love sandbox worlds and even the open-world PVP, but if you don't protect people in some way, the notorious griefer types will always kill off your new players... which is the same as killing your own playerbase.

[@Kalgert]

Can confirm, I quit plenty of games because the existing playerbase made it seem like I am not at all welcome to their party.

[@Prawnsacrifice]

I think it's quite amusing when a playerbase can't see it's the problem 😂😂

[@justiceforjoggers2897]

Rust and Eve Online in a nutshell

[@DerJuvens]

Griefers got me off MO1 :P Liked the game aside from those griefers.

[@toddtaylor6506]

Griefers kill everyone until no one logs in .... game dies .. Mortal Online 3 begins development ...

[@RamdomGuy1337]

Its funny how the devs CLEARLY understood their wrongdoings with Mortal Online 1. AND DECIDED TO DO IT ALL AGAIN! Also, what the HELL is that community? Can they be more edgy? I doubt it.

[@Koranthus]

Well, its funny because they put the game copy into alpha with updated graphics, then asked him to review it in alpha, and then end up fixing some things he points out later on. So I guess they wanted to use him as a sounding board for the 2nd one?

[@NeiasaurusCreations]

@@Koranthus Why pay for beta testers when you can give John a key, and get him to break down every way your game is flawed, and how to improve it.....And not pay him.

[@Chance57]

@@NeiasaurusCreations because even Josh isn't and idiot and know it's symbiotic? A beta key is better than no beta key when views on these videos are his bread and butter.

[@NeiasaurusCreations]

@@Chance57 Bruh. What does any of this have to do with using Josh as your beta tester because he's good at it?

[@OldManShoutsAtClouds]

@@NeiasaurusCreations I'm sorry are you angry at an indy dev for using community feedback and acting on it? What exactly would you prefer, that they don't solicit feedback? The they don't use it?

[@Necrosian]

I suggest waiting few month if you're thinking about buying this. Corrently there are major server issues(servers cant handle more than 4000? people) and queues are anything from 3 to 20 hours, sometimes more than that. It's been going for 2 weeks now.

[@Nulldron]

I like how people actually tried to help you out tho like telling you what you can and cannot do

[@majones117]

I feel some PTSD coming on from my attempts to having fun playing Ark. A whole week of grinding and taming on a server lost to an offline raid by a guy with a ton of C4 and infinite ammo. RIP all those Dinos.

[@bluexephosfan970]

It's a shame because I would really love these types of games if not for the pvp

[@pitaden5620]

On the official server I played on, there was an alpha tribe that had blocked every single metal ore spawn. If anyone progressed to stone structures, they got attacked by C4 and a quetzal platform filled with turrets. If anyone built more than 1 story, they get removed from existence. If the alpha tribe felt like it, you got removed from existence. It was physically impossible to do damage to the tribe, because even if you somehow manage to destroy their metal walls and kill their dinos and destroy their turrets, they still had thousands more - but if they do the same to you, you just lost all of your progress and you have to restart everything from scratch. And the developers, instead of fixing the constant crashing or optimizing their game or fixing exploits that are public on youtube, decide to pump out more fucking DLCs before they even leave early access.

[@MarriedMule]

Even on the pve servers, if people didn't like you they would kite the big dinos to your base to destroy them. Every game like this seems to have people that think they're something amazing.

[@konirtemori6845]

at least with ark you can have fun on pve servers. this is so much worse.

[@Olivia-W]

@@bluexephosfan970 I love this kind of open world player created content... without PvP. Unless it's by consent.

[@calmkat9032]

That's why I love this channel, it'd be tempting to say "wow, this game is better in every way!" And get a kickback from the dev, and make you feel like your time was worth it. Instead, you're brutally honest so we dont waste our time.

[@420noscopesonlylol6]

I also heard him say in a video that he doesn't over react like most youtubers. I think that's a reason why he is really good content creator, because a lot of youtubers overreact instead of having good content. Josh is honest and hardworking

[@starblaiz1986]

@@420noscopesonlylol6 "THIS MMO IS SO BAD IT LITERALLY KILLED MY DOG IRL!!"

[@ekki1993]

@@420noscopesonlylol6 Not only that, youtubers who overreact are always the first ones to jump into an opportunity to shill for a game that pays them to say nice things about it.

[@shooby9496]

I'm not averse to a game not having a map for the sake of game experience but only if it makes sense in the universe. Here there are apparently giant cities that would take many generations to build - there's absolutely NO WAY that the denizens of this city wouldn't have maps. It's absurd to even suggest.

[@___________0Z0X]

Or at least give the player an option to create a map.

[@arkanaloth2617]

lol, Never been a fan of sandbox games or "hardcore" pvp and I don't see this one changing my mind. for those that love it, go for it..

[@endryju1]

And that's the problem with this review. He doesn't like this game type and want it to be changed into casual MMO. While you can understand that this is not a type of game for you. I know as well that Bus Driver Sim would not be something for me, yet i do not whine that its not NFS.

[@Kaledrone]

@@endryju1 No, the game's just fucking shit and you are coping to the maximum because no one ever taught you how to deal with reality. If you were really into hardcore pvp mmos you would play something like EVE or literally any other "hardcore PVP" game better than this shitshow. The game is just bad and it's not just because of the hardcore pvp part, he also explains how shit Mortal Online 1 was in another video and this one has most of the problems the previous game had, they were supposed to fix all the problems but no they repackaged it with better graphics. Keep coping, it won't change reality.

[@brianmcquain3384]

I never thought about drawing my own map in a game until I saw this concept

[@jenathan76]

Frankly, I'm surprised there isn't a cartography skill tree that requires you to read 25 skill books in order to begin creating a rudimentary map that you'll need to start over every time you die... Seems like a missed opportunity.

[@nobody-ms7uz]

@@jenathan76 Cartography is actually a planned skill. Right now people are using third party software for cartography. The fact that drawing maps and sharing it is important in this game, is really appealing to a lot of people.

[@Prawnsacrifice]

@@nobody-ms7uz said nobody 😉

[@elwiseguy69]

@@jenathan76 I think a Discord Mod told us they were going to add that at some point during beta.

[@kooken58]

Right? one of my biggest gripes in games like WoW and other MMOs is how detailed ingame maps are, pointing you to exactly where you need to go. It honestly kills immersions and I'm honestly surprised no game has tried to incorporate a map making profession. I think it would be pretty cool. I heard that Ashes of Creation dev's have debated on adding this, but we shall see if it gets implemented or not.

[@Jonathan-pm2zf]

i played mortal online years ago and i remember enjoying it right up until i was killed repeatedly in the low level graveyard outside the city. i needed to leave to get things done but a group of high level players just sat out there killing anyone who stepped outside the city. i attempted to play for a few hours but i couldnt get anything done so i gave up eventually.

[@ForExampleJon]

Times like that I'm glad I had my buddy who has been playing WOW since release to come protect me when getting griefed.

[@nathanc939]

The only people who ever attacked me out of nowhere in MO1 were other new players. I probably have like 200 hours, over 10 years. I played it a bit from time to time and always had fun, but it was never my main game. Still, I did not get ganked once and the community was extremely friendly and mature. Idk when that happened to you, but to me it is surprising and hard to believe. Because the griefers join, try to grief get stomped, realise the game is hard then leave the game. Griefers usually do not like to put in time and efforts.

[@boscobiggs3429]

Sounds like gta online the experience

[@NoirTheSable]

@@nathanc939 - Respectfully, I find it a _lot_ harder to believe someone has gone 200 hours in a PVP MMO without experiencing ANY griefers or ganking, than someone getting ganked in a low-level PVP area.

[@Hb093]

I guess THEY had a good time

[@cheyennereynoso4116]

Man, I’ve really been enjoying Josh’s content. Every video I’ve seen thus far is really good. Your intros are great.

[@sopppa]

when its easier to craft a warhammer from scratch in the real world than in your fantasy game something is wrong with your crafting skills system

[@TheDapperDragon]

Stick + heavy rock + rope. Basic ass warhammer right there.

[@zeroone2136]

The two biggest problems with this game are it's community and the developers' unyielding stubbornness to keep mechanics in the game that only their two digits playerbase likes.

[@RahzZalinto]

git gud noob

[@fencingfireferret1188]

@@RahzZalinto ded game

[@edgarallanpwned6666]

@@RahzZalinto get good at a game the devs won't make accessible and is virtually baron? Yeah nah, I'd rather play in a literal cemetery.

[@lonelykitchen]

@@edgarallanpwned6666 not everything on the planet needs to cater to you, snowflake

[@ironrose6]

@lonely kitchen That's a valid opinion to have, just don't bitch when your niche game dies.

[@jaysonbird3975]

Lol at the guy in chat asking for admin to ban him, cause as he says GAME SUCKS. 😄🤣

[@phftheebonidiot637]

If it was Darkfall they would have...

[@hillehai]

@@phftheebonidiot637 Wait, does Darkfall still exist?!

[@ahappylictor3214]

yeah lol, epic hardcore gamer over there with skin as thin as paper.

[@Doriansgirl19]

Not having maps is the dumbest thing I have heard in a while. Like as if maps have not existed for thousands of years as a real world tool that anyone with the means to travel would have had access to? Even if they weren't to scale they still existed as a way for travelers to orient themselves in the world, so choosing to not have maps in the world is literally just telling the player "f*** you for wanting to understand where things in this world are."

[@kordlesskure]

I got this ages ago and finally started playing recently. Gotta say it has some of the worst players I've ever met in a game. Ventured out to find a specific resource and was instantly chased down by 2 players who killed me and my horse. I'm not stupid enough to bring valuables, but they actually searched me out in the nearby city to talk sarcastic trash to my face. Gritted my teeth and took an alternate route to try to find said resource and avoid running across players. Was a minute away from where I needed to be to start gathering when suddenly 2 other players run up behind me and again start to attack me. Mind you, I'm basically naked with the bare minimum gear needed to accomplish the task. Cheap tools, no money, a little food for my horse. Maybe I'm not toxic enough for a game like this. It's sad because the global help chat has a lot of nice people in it, but the larger game world is overtly hostile and predatory to new players. I can't see this game ever being anything but a niche of a niche for people with nothing better to do than be nasty to each other. You can cram all the systems and intricacy into the game you want but if the only people really playing your game in the long run are kind of awful, I don't see the point of it. Wish I still had the money I spent on the purchase lol

[@im50yearsold]

As it is an MMO consider that you should group up with likeminded people, that is the point of an mmo Playing solo is a recipe for disaster

[@alconeuskhan4747]

"If your enjoyment comes at the expense of another you are not creating a sustainable environment for new players." I will not be trying this game for this very reason. That is a sentence that should be analysed by anyone making a multiplayer game. It is basically 'if your fun removes other peoples fun, why would anyone ever play?' For every player you have that is enjoying it, you are bound to remove potential other players from your game, they will scare them off, and thus remove the thing that they are enjoying. Why make a game that is inevitably going to nose dive into obscurity? P.s. that crafting system looks so ridiculously convoluted. A convoluted crafting system is not good, not if the only reason it is convoluted is for the sake of making itself more convoluted. Admittedly its probably better than modern WoW crafting. There is somewhere in between these too extremes.

[@Thor-Orion]

Yeah, FFXIV crafting.

[@tiagolopes4383]

I like the idea of crafting the handle/hilt then the head/blade, using different materials and that getting reflected on your actual weapon model and weapon stats but the whole book and skill system seem absolutely insufferable.

[@3Dant]

@@Thor-Orion If FFXIV didn't have a sub I would play just for the crafting

[@Phyzm1]

Because man, the counter side to that argument is your fun comes from helping players. A name is carried a long way in MO, and just as there will be players and guilds with horrible reputations, there will be those with amazing ones as well.

[@CrzyLion]

im so tired of plebs making this argument "oh but the casuls will be driven away so the game cant ever function" rust and ark have been hanging out in the top 10/20 steam games being played for half a decade now. the game that invented this system, to my knowledge, is runescape which has been one of the most succesful games in the world for most of my life now, and when they removed the wild(the pvp zone where you lose everything) there was a huge outcry from the community. the logic behind the statement sounds ok at first, but the simple truth is that a game doesnt need 10 milion players to feel alive, it needs populated servers (which all of the above games have). Not every game studio is trying to make the biggest game ever, best part of the internet era is that niche markets are actually big now.

[@wheeloftimem8481]

Why did they design such a huge world with almost no NPCs?

[@zeroone2136]

The lead designer wants to add six other continents... They're already working on two of them apparently. These people are fucking delusional, that's why.

[@nobody-ms7uz]

It's still in closed beta. They just ended the stress test and have been focussing on getting server capacity on par. Now they'll be focussing their development on filling the world and enhancing the new player experience.

[@zeroone2136]

@@nobody-ms7uz Usually, you make the game first, and worry about server capacity issues a few weeks before release. Though to be fair, their roadmap was promising early access by the end of March, which is uh, perplexing to say the least. These developers are in way over their heads, which is funny, considering they've been working on this franchise for over a decade.

[@nobody-ms7uz]

@@zeroone2136 I'm not sure if that's what's done usually. Even if it is, usually it goes terribly wrong.

[@zeroone2136]

@@nobody-ms7uz Yeah, it's the industry standard to have a stress test or "open beta" a few weeks before release. Usually works pretty well. The reason you don't want to have it earlier, is because you need large amount of players, and showing your unfinished, bug ridden and empty game to a large amount of players is bad for business.

[@mafiousbj]

This game shows perfectly why sound design is also extremely important for immersion and player enjoyment. Same applies to fighting games....when hitting an opponent doesn´t feel "right" or satisfying...it can feel really bland and take you out of it quickly

[@sanghelian]

...wait what, so if i'd make a obese dude who spends most of his time sitting down, it would be viable tank build??

[@1Apep1]

So characters know how to read from the start but have to figure out the slightest bit of crafting from books. In a harsh environment, where improvising tools and weapons would be absolutely crucial for survival, the character's parents decided that the only thing they wanted to equip their offspring with to face the world would be the ABC song.

[@Bollibompa]

Yes...? You know that this kind of "joke"-critique can be made about any game ever, Unoriginal and boring.

[@splitprune]

@@Bollibompa i like your comment it is a very good comment

[@flyingduck91]

@@Bollibompa it's not a joke tho

[@BinkoBunko]

@@Bollibompa Other games crafting has you understand how to make steel from iron using a forge. This game wants me to read a lore book to understand what wood is.

[@DuskEalain]

@@BinkoBunko how is tree born? how did ground get pregnant with plant?

[@svoloch125]

Got Skyrim flashback from that cinematic. Was waiting for Alduin to pop his head into that hole in the wall along the stairs and breath fire into camera.

[@von__db]

The game has come a long way since then, I would love to see you do another one of these just to see what you think of it in its current state

[@grifyn882]

wow...the cathedral is brutally impressive ! wonderful design

[@ZDanielPhoenix]

"Mortal Online 2: Be immersed. Eat... Eat yourself. Use your own corpse as a weapon." It's odd, because games like this rely so heavily on players doing the heavy lifting, but then insist on making in-game systems have a somewhat hidden bar for entry. I'm just not interested in games that do that anymore.

[@shinkamui]

kinda odd if you think about it. If the social interaction and the survival thing is the driving force of the game, it would stand to logic that systems should be simple and not get in the way of the main thing

[@Hyrdonemicus]

@@shinkamui it's because the thought process is of that of the late 90s - early 2000s when MMOs were mostly full loot on death. Most gamers, even some vets, have outgrown the need to grief to validate themselves or rather the need to have conflict. To me, if I get ganked and lose everything I'll quit and not look back. It's not that I couldn't continue, there would just be no point.

[@zappodude7591]

10:06 These sorts of games can't have interesting world features. The second you try to engage with them, another player sees that you're distracted and kills you.

[@surg23]

One of the rare videos in the series where critique isn't mostly projecting personal gameplay preferences. Good one.

[@DrHippo]

For about a year I was responsible for rigging/animation on Mortal Online 1, about 12 years ago. While I agree with most of the critique and it's not a game for me particularly, I feel that the "this is bad because it alienates players and it stops the game from getting big" commentary is not always so black and white. Not all companies value the same things, some companies want to be succesful and grow, others value more to make the game *they* want to play, and if they can make a living off of it then that's a bonus. I feel that the later is exactly the vibe that I got from StarVault back then and that was what initially attracted me to apply for the job. They were ( and I presume still are ) extremely passionate about this exact vision for a game. And in an industry where so many companies will do anything to optimize sucking every gamers wallet dry, it was refreshing ,to me at least, to see someone putting the game vision first and not desperately trying to please everyone for a quick profit. It doesn't mean that the game is good obviously, I guess I just appreciate this approach from a game dev's point of view. Also nice video and shout out to SV's lead programmer who's a total prodigy 🤟

[@kaanaydogan5130]

Everyone probably appreciates their passion but the actual application is really bad. I tried playing 2 or 3 times and had to give up since there is no guidance. And having to open up a player made guide is not really newcomer friendly.

[@Tucarius]

Their 'exact vision for the game' is systems which are intentionally convoluted, frustrating, and downright aggravating to make any use of?

[@TheIdealisticRealist]

@@Tucarius I would say the exact vision is a recreation and improvement on Ultima Online

[@JgHaverty]

Reminds me of path of exile in a way. Hopefully the implementation of mortal online 2 will be more fleshed out but given their own self critiques back in the day; i think they understand they arent making something to appeal to everyone. Ive never played either of these, but the whole premise is very old school in a nostalgic way for me. Its marmite; but i absolutely love being able to level *everything*. Reminds me of old games where id jump literally everywhere to get my jump skill crazy and i felt rewarded for my inputs for anything i did. Anyway, its obvious you guys missed the mark on the first game; but it sounds like you guys were super young and *very* ambitious, and failure means you tried. I think josh is overly harsh on the "lack of story" thing; as a lot of games have mechanics like this without being as overt about it.

[@gregs9210]

the problem is how committed they are to importing mechanics that were broken or less than ideal in MO1

[@DarkWarchieff]

The hardest game I played and enjoyed is ''from the depths'' a naval engineering sim - but it's very intuitively made. It's possible to do ''hardcore'' but mortal is not how you do it. From the depths is over 5 years old and it still gets updates regulary. Lovely dev team.

[@theslay66]

You sir, have good taste. Mortal online makes things complicated just for the sake of it. Having you go through multiple stages, failing without appropriate explanations or guidance and overall letiing you stumble in the dark just to craft some basic weapon, that's just obfuscation, trying to look deep by adding meaningless tasks where it's not needed. By contrast, the complexity in From the depth is meaningfull. You don't have to engage in very complicated stuff if you don't want to, you can just copy existing ships and you will be perfectly fine. But you can also go deep into the engineering to make your thing, the game provides all the tools you need to really tailor your own perfect ship, with precisely calibrated guns and finely tuned AI behavior. And everything is exaustively described in game, as the dev team has made lot of efforts to make it accessible to beginners. For people who never heard of this gem, but like the "create your own ship" principle like in Space engineer or Starmade (although the action in FtD all takes place on the surface), try it, it's really good. Also interesting for rts lovers, as it is a game about territory conquest and ressource exploitation against multiple factions.

[@WannaComment2]

99% of the time "You can do whatever you want" is just code for "You can grief other players" You can do the things other games don't let you do, for good reasons. Honestly though, I appreciate the existence of these types of games. They lure players that only want to mess with other players away from decent games. In these games they can just be assholes to each other.

[@fatrat600284]

Have you played Eve Online? Yes, you can grief other people in different ways. But, you can also play smart play mostly avoid most pvp, you can do pve missions, mine, explore, craft, etc. People in these comments and Josh in his videos have complained about these types of games not holding their hand, but that's the point, it's up to you. You can do whatever you feel like doing and you can find a way to make that work. Some of the best gaming moments i had where in EvE, i've never gotten those from a Thempark mmo.

[@Koranthus]

@@fatrat600284 I think you missed the point actually. The point is that these games are driven by players, and if there are no players there is no content and the core gameplay loop of this game makes it so players will continue to leave because its obtuse and relies on a wiki or other players to play.

[@Tucarius]

Maybe that is the lesson nobody likes to openly teach... a lot of people just like being assholes. There is no good reason for it, there's no tangible benefit, they just like being awful to others for the sake of it.

[@starsiegeRoks]

@@Tucarius yeah, every person has a horrible version of themselves, and if you nurture it enough, even in video games, you will begin to enjoy the terrible things you do. Most of the times video games are used to simulate things that would land you in prison if you did them in real life.

[@steveescher1554]

I watched a dev try and show off the fishing system and he kept getting pushed in the water to his death haha and he addressed how people did that a lot in the first one too. Then why do nothing to address it? myb even just add some ladders so you can get out without dying, or a rail of some sort. To me the game just seems like a lazy shell of a game and they use the "hardcore" thing as an excuse for lack of a game.

[@JK-gm6kk]

It seems to me that most people use games as a form of escapism from the harsh cruel nature of actual life. If I wanted a "hardcore" simulator, I would just not play video games and wait for another crushing blow from life

[@coltdallas8687]

as far as the lack of tutorial/lack of crafting guide etc. I think people assume the devs did that on purpose, but most of the time its just the devs who didnt bother to take the time to actually make it or the dev team left and now its a skeleton crew etc.

[@MasterTeeee]

Mortal online reminds me of my actual birthday, except, rather than being raised, taught and cared for, I'm instead handed a tiny mace, a steel helmet, and then abandoned in the middle of Ottawa.

[@Danaba67]

why Ottawa?

[@MasterTeeee]

@@Danaba67 it just has a novel sounding name.

[@Thor-Orion]

Funny you should have that “lol random” story. Because it’s my life. I still have the tiny mace. It stopped being useful once I gained my child sized mace.

[@Danaba67]

@@Thor-Orion all citizens of Ottawa are actually bestowed a tiny mace with their birth certificate from Queen Elizabeth II herself

[@jeremytitus9519]

@@Danaba67 ​ Never experienced it myself, but I hear that before the Elizabeth II patch, the Ottawa start was basically unplayable.

[@ericb3157]

something you said reminded me of a weird game i heard about called "manual Samuel". you have to manually control EVERYTHING Samuel does for an entire day. INCLUDING BREATHING. you have to press a certain button or key to make him breathe every few seconds, NO MATTER WHAT ELSE IS HAPPENING. if you forget to make him breathe in the middle of a BATTLE, he dies and you have to start the ENTIRE game ALL OVER.

[@raptecclawtooth9046]

And don't forget the blinking, if you don´t blink every time your vision start to get blurry until you blink, but at least in the context of the story all that make sense since you are trying to get your soul again and you are literally a dead body with no organic functions; But here is they just put everything backwards: learn all about materials and "lore" and career in weaponry before doing basic stuff, In real life even if you don't know nothing at least you can experiment with you have, right all your initial things you do will be shit, but you get the basic knowledge to improve AND at least an object to use, even is not very good.

[@Fuzen.]

Sounds like an interesting main gimmick for a short game ! But obviously a whole full-length game based on this kind of concept would be anything but fun.

[@Salsmachev]

Sounds like that running game where the left hip, right hip, left knee, and right knee each control separately and you have to spend hours just to be able to walk

[@raptecclawtooth9046]

@@Salsmachev You are not far

[@rngesus6295]

@@Salsmachev You mean QWOP? I can see the comparison but I don't think it really compares with Manual Samuel that well. Manual Samuels point is multitasking whatever normally mundane task you are given along with basic living functionality. While QWOP's controls may need multi managing it is a lot more similar to Getting Over it, it's about mastering a control scheme that is honestly very basic.

[@MontyDotharl]

I do like how, even in games that are dead (or like this, dead on arrival), you still run into a few people. And even though those people, if they recognize you, realize that you being there likely means a Worst MMO Ever? video or something along those lines is coming, they still often help you out. Give you stuff, answer questions, etc. And I've seen it happen even as someone who isn't a fairly popular content creator. The custom server I sometimes play FFXI on may not have a large population (at peak maybe a few dozen to a couple hundred on rare occasions, and it's one of the larger custom servers) but the people who are there are generally glad to help with anything. You'll often find jerks but generally people just want help when they can. It's nice to see.

[@igunn8632]

I mean thats the thing, even if its a negative review, its coverage the game might need for those people who think it actually does look fun

[@thraxus6661]

There seems to be a large subset of gamers that REALLY enjoy games that are just hard for the sake of it so they can feel superior to other players, and clearly games exist and are created constantly for them. One of my favorite games, Path of Exile, is one of them and every time I complain to people about how I hate the crafting system, or the super punishing climb from level 90-100, I constantly hear "PoE is not supposed to be an easy game". Why is that an excuse for the game design? Why is that a good reason? I'll never understand it, and I hate that such a good ARPG is plagued with this subset of people.

[@JohnSmith-kb4re]

In short: Mortal Online is edgy Club Penguin, with a toxic community.

[@TheVioletBunny]

@Flare sounds like I’ll pass on this one

[@FireroseNekowolf]

@Flare Maybe I should get a voice changer, pose as a girl for free shit, and rule the land with an iron fist.

[@AoiYukinoMisharu]

@Flare Yeah that's just bad. At that point I don't even care if people like 'hardcore' games, that's just bad design, if your system can facilitate such griefing.

[@GruppeSechs]

@Flare Their target audience are the kind of people to abandon games after a week of griefing others, and the bare bones infrastructure seems like they don't care after initial sales, as long as there's a profit.

[@JH-zs6vh]

Bannerlord Online. It’s hard for me to explain, but a single developer made a 1000 player server for a Total War/Mount and Blade multiplayer experience. As a mod, for completely free... i do not understand how a large scale pvp mmo hasn’t come out yet despite everyone screaming for one. Planetside 2 is the only real example of large scale pvp with hundreds of players capturing bases and etc, Return of Reckoning has some good large scale pvp, but its extremely clunky. New World will only support 50v50, Ashes of Creation showed last week 100v100 with their endgoal being 200v200. But Ashes of Creation just seems beyond clunky in terms of combat, as if they tried to copy ESO’s combat but gave up halfway through. I put more faith into modders than actual game developers to make a good game, because modders will volunteer all of their free time to transforming a game into something better than it was to begin with.

[@brendancoulter5761]

"This is not a good interface for new players" Thats a bad interface for any player, how annoying is it that the system does not tell you how many resources you need? That would get annoying for any one doing allot of crafting with allot of different materials. Its deliberately frustrating design.

[@desplanchesstevan1418]

That's just it. That's not design for people who want to play an ''hardcore'' game, that's not design for people who already know how this works. That's just bad, blatantly bad. Awful even.

[@WannaComment2]

Nah man it's hardcore. Everyone knows that watching youtube tutorials and reading the game's wiki is what separates the men from the boys.

[@moosenman]

@@WannaComment2 oh absolutely. Reading 30 comments to try and figure out what you’re doing is a right of passage/j

[@KubinWielki]

My absolute biggest gripe with Mortal Online 2 is that it's... literally just Mortal Online 1 in a new coat of paint. I did play MO1 for some time, but soon the mechanical clunkiness started to wear me down and I've stopped. I was elated when they announced MO2, thinking that it might be "it" - with reduced clunkiness of combat and magic, and some lessons learned by Star Vault in general design, MO2 might be "the" hardcore MMO. Nope. It is *literally* MO1 with better graphics and less pop-in (better draw distance). Weapons might look better, but the combat is still cartoonishly slow and clunky, and some magic effects look gorgeous, but the spellcasting *mechanic* is still the same atrocity it was back in the days of MO1. My hope is that those systems are temporary and intended to be replaced with something better, but knowing how SV has been approaching design throughout the lifespan of MO1, I don't believe it.

[@kiticanax1421]

There is no such thing as bad publicity. Watched this video when it came out. Wanted to try out a new sandbox MMO a few weeks ago and saw this game come up. Was intrigued by the recent positive Steam reviews and the polarizing first hand accounts from people. Purchased the game and am loving it. Thanks for first exposing me to this game JoshStrifeHayes.

[@im50yearsold]

The game has come a long way and has been getting better with every patch. You definitely have to adopt a different mindset but it's a good time. A good way to put it is that it has the highest of highs but it also has the lowest of lows. Sometimes you're tearing things up and sometimes you're the one that gets got

[@nef36]

Part of the appeal of these games is that, while they are obtuse and time-consuming, they aren't inherently hard games. The target audience of Mortal Online 2, and most other full loot mmos, are people who say they want hardcore mechanics in a game, but they aren't actually good enoughtat games to play the harder, more competitive games. What they *actually* want, but wont admit to themselves, is a game that they only have to read the wiki, and not actually get more skilled at to thrive in. The combat in Mortal Online 2 perfectly molds to this appeal, being extremely boring, simple, and easy, but being obtuse enough to new players that veterans won't actually be threatened by the newer players in the graveyards when they inevitably die at the higher levels, where combat between players of near skill is mostly determined by level and gear.

[@HermanManly]

I am immeasurably mad that these devs aren't putting their immaculte city design skills to use in a good single player game. Those are probably the best cities I've ever seen in a video game when it comes to scale. Walking through that gigantic gate into the wilderness feels so grand. Real shame there is just no game in this awesome world

[@jeremytitus9519]

@@1776Jan Whenever I see somebody with Downs Syndrome, I burst a blood vessel.

[@Phyzm1]

Have you even played the game or are you just taking this bias review for face value? Alpha footage from a brand new character with no skills and having never left town.

[@Koranthus]

@@Phyzm1 That is what the developers wanted him to review, probably so the beta had a tutorial and all the other shit he pointed out in the video. Also all the people saying he didn't leave town clearly don't have the attention span to watch the full video before coming to the comments to whine.

[@steveescher1554]

World feels so empty and bland. They just made things big to be big. I thought the smaller towns were actually better looking. They had more detail and realism to them.

[@IzzySarru]

@@steveescher1554 Yeah, this feels like a world that would have benefited from the large cities actually being dilapidated ruins the players can work on restoring or just bulldoze and build something else.

[@Dant_D]

That peanut analogy was amazing. Bravo.

[@lilthreegame7991]

"Apologies guys, I cannot put this rock on this stick until I have read an entire library's worth of books on rocks, sticks, rocks and sticks, rocks and sticks used to hurt people, and human skin."

[@elitereptilian200]

handle, head & weapon books are all different skill books.. but.. shouldn't a weapon crafting book teach you to make the whole damn weapon without needing separate books for the handle and the head? this is so silly..

[@browniegames865]

That rest mechanic is a funny way to pad their daily user play time. Hoping people afk for hours while resting.

[@E1m0ren]

Nobody cares or will ever look at a full loot PVP game's average daily user playtime.

[@browniegames865]

@@E1m0ren pretty sure that is an important stat for any game. If u can show investors that ur players play for crazy hours everyday then investors will likely invest in ur future games. Not all investors care that its a survival pvp whatever game. They want numbers.

[@E1m0ren]

@@browniegames865 There are no investors for this, almost no games publicly report numbers and investors care about how many people continue to show up and pay money, not whether or not they're online potentially afk or (insert anything unrelated to making them money here).

[@jacobbatchelor7877]

@@browniegames865 t. Someone who has done no research on the game or the company and their history whatsoever

[@aleksandrlaffhof3046]

@@browniegames865 Black Desert Online pretty much. Scooping water for hours...

[@ianharac5153]

Raph Koster once said "No one pays 12 bucks a month to be somebody's bitch." EVE Online is kind of the exception that proves the rule. But there's things it does (due to the setting) that most other MMOs cannot. And it's been around for, what, 15 years now? Longer? So any new game has to compete with all the content EVE has added and re-learn all the lessons it's learned.

[@CheeseOfMasters]

A Star Wars Galaxies which is set in an original scifi universe would be worth a try by that logic. Although I do enjoy playing swg-online from time to time, but the lack of content always throws me off, so a little bit of dynamic world content would be good in that mix. I don't know much about EVE in that regard but I guess something akin to Guild Wars 2 radiant quests could make a lot of fun.

[@LePopeUrban]

You have to remember that in the context of EVE the VAST MAJORITY of its player base spends their time grinding PvE content or passively mining and hauling in hisec where the space cops will blow up the ganker's spaceship for taking a shot at them. This doesn't prevent people from suicide ganking in that space if they can get more out of your wreck than theirs was worth. Make no mistake, the economics of suicide ganking are well known to all of EVE's professional PvE player base, and intended by its developers so that players learn the important relationship between cargo value and risk. This is by design so that unexpected player interaction still happen, and so its pve community still has some small interactions with its pvp community and learns proper play patterns organically without losing too much progress. However, by its developer's own player metrics all of that legendary story worthy hardcore space salt farming is paid for by the dollars of 8 carebears watching mining rocks or doing level 4 pve missions half asleep or watching TV for every 1 guy who actually goes out and gets in fights on purpose. This is why EVE has succeeded where other pvp sandboxes have failed. It may be a single server world of hardcore space capitalism, but that world has within it systems and protections that ensure that the wolves can never completely wipe out, but only serve as a minor inconvenience to dedicated sheep. Simply put, you can have a great pvp sandbox, but that sandbox needs a significant amount of its surface area to be made of a castle specifically built to protect newbies and serve as a refuge for players that have lost the ability to compete in its harsher contests. Half of the game's galaxy is purpose built to allow players to prepare for the unforgiving lawless reaches of full pvp space before they enter it, and replace their stuff if they enter it and fail, and most of them NEVER leave that space because it is in and of itself a fully functional MMO. This is what people who haven't played EVE often fail to understand about EVE. It isn't as hardcore a PvP sandbox as its most vocal players would like you to think it is unless you want it to be, and that alone is why it continues to exist. PvP sandboxes are fun and engaging, but they only work as part of a greater whole designed to give people a shovel first.

[@ianharac5153]

@@LePopeUrban Yes. But that's harder to translate to a traditonal medieval setting. Eve's setting is huge, and this works because it only takes a few bytes to say "put a planet here" in a given system. One solution I've thought of (if I win a lottery and have 50 million to burn) is to go back to the original Daggerfall and have a huge world that's mostly procedural. You have hubs that are hand crafted, and literal hundreds of miles of procedural terrain between them, enough to actually hide in or settle without quickly filling up. Allow fast travel between PVE hubs, but if you wnat to go into the procedural world and spend actual hours of real time walking between settlements, you can. PVE players can zip around between "theme park" quest and story centers and ignore the procedural wildlands, PVP players can build cities and kill each other all they like in an immense world. You'd need to come up with rules and systems to interact between these two styles, though.

[@learntooilpaint]

The other point Is that Eve barely attracts new players, and those it does only 2% last beyond the first 10 days or something. It hasn’t grown beyond the 30k in years for a reason

[@rivaxis]

@@learntooilpaint that could be because of its setting. Spaceship games tend to not be as popular as fantasy ones. But I dont mind. I still love doing those lvl 5 missions in my Hel

[@CommissarMitch]

So I went and checked. The last 30 days, at the time of writing, this game had around 3100 average players. Peak players of all time was on January with 9600 players. This is actually quite impressive considering how shit the game is. Average player numbers in February was 4800. Props for keeping the new players there.

[@sorebeick1064]

It's now sitting at roughly 900. Hoo boy

[@tahnsao4489]

I recently started playing this game and if you can get through the super hard intro and getting your bearings its super worth it.

[@MoonTiger88]

I feel a pattern forming where Josh gets a beta key from devs who expect he'll do a glowing video about their game..

[@nobody-ms7uz]

Pretty sure they look at this as a source of feedback. Star Vault has been very open to feedback during development and are reflective of the mistakes they've made in the past with the first game. I really hope people aren't completely dismissing the game because someone (that admitted they don't like these types of games) didn't like the game in its closed beta state(very early).

[@Fuzen.]

I think that it depends. Some devs look for actual feedback to improve their games. For instance, there are devs who send keys to Let’s Game It Out because they know that he’ll break their game in the most horrible fashion… And possibly get some exposition at the same time. (I have personally played quite a few of these games that looked interesting despite all these issues, while I would never have done so if not for this channel.) And then there is the other type - those who are either delusional about the quality of their game, or those big companies like Gameforge who have mailing lists and basically send this kind of offer to any relevant content creator, no matter if they are known to be shills or not.

[@sei8589]

@HawkEyeAnti Josh did say that it's like asking something who has peanut allergies to taste the greatest peanut butter ever made.

[@jacobbatchelor7877]

@HawkEyeAnti Review's don't have to be objective, as long as the reviewer makes their biases clear to the viewer then they may allow them to influence the review as much as they want.

[@zhwanzie8327]

@@nobody-ms7uz and people act like ashes of creation is the only dev team in the genre to be like this.

[@deathpyre42]

Even EVE has an actual npc driven plot, and that's probably the closest an mmo comes to a totally player driven pvp mmorpg.

[@MagicAlfi]

though nobody playing eve knows or actually cares about that plot ^^

[@deathpyre42]

@@MagicAlfi Still, it's there to justify things like ship designs and the one rando who plays eve like it's wow.

[@LePopeUrban]

@@MagicAlfi They might not know or care about the plot but the definately know the ISK/Hour of farming at least 6 different types of minerals, hauling missions, faction point farms, crafting setups, or planetary industry layouts. That's what separates EVE from a lot of these PvP sandboxes. It actually functions as a PvE game with very little risk of losing your stuff in PvP until you get greedy enough to make it a PvP game.

[@JaamesJohnson]

Lore and Plot is pointless the Lore should be created by the players not some stupid story made up bye the developers....

[@WannaComment2]

@@JaamesJohnson ... and that was the story of how BickusDickus69420 saved the realm by killing the noob invaders at spawn, time and time again, until they came to realise that his spendor was far too great and his sword far too maxed out for them to match, and they resolved to stop playing the game forever. The End.

[@SendarSlayer]

This crafting and books system would be really cool with one very small change. The books can be an easy way of learning anything you want, for money. But you should be able to learn about the material and weapon and such by collecting it. Collect 100 pieces of birch wood? Well now you have that tree unlocked.

[@endryju1]

You do actually learn not only from books but by crafting also. Thou you need book for unlocking skill tree. Like when You want to learn plated armor and all you know is how to do Leather armor. You start reading book ant you receive schematics of plated armor, but also by making them you learn more and do Plate Armor with better stats. Also not your character but you yourself have to learn what is the best ratio of base and second material. Too much cotton and not enough steel, it is good against bashing but not good against stabbing, and so on.

[@SendarSlayer]

@@endryju1 You described a standard crafting level system. Almost every MMO that has crafting has levels. Just you don't need to grind to get a whole library to start crafting.

[@malbogia8003]

Yaknow, bladesmithing is a hobby of mine, and it seems less tedious to do in real life than in this game. Seems like games often confuse "hard core" and "realistic" for unbalanced, tedious gameplay and lack of foresight. How realistic can it be if being overweight makes you healthier? Yeesh. I do wish the best for the devs. Seems like they could make something really interesting one day.

[@midgetydeath]

The crafting problem appears to be that it breaks with how the rest of the skills work. For all the other skills, you unlock it by doing it and level it up by practicing it. For crafting, you have to buy a bunch of skill books to unlock the crafting and the books also give you experience. It should be that you can crafting anything but have to experiment using some simple logic to figure out what materials and what design to use for it. And that you can make larger, more complex things with better materials as your skill increases. That is how it *should* be and would fit much better with how the rest of the game's skills function. Also, a wooden hammer compared to a metal sword...

[@Slvrbuu]

Props to them for at least saying give this game a try. Instead of somehow coming after you with copyright strikes and stuff.

[@Freekillable]

They haven't read the 15 skill books required to submit a copyright strike.

[@LordBattleSmurf]

They know the game isn't for carebears like him, but SOME people who watch his videos WILL like the concept of a modern hardcore openworld pvp sandbox mmo where pvp/ player politics and risk vs reward actually matter and have consequences . And i'm one of them

[@jigslast6843]

@@LordBattleSmurf what he doesn't want to waste his time playing a obtuse and convoluted mmo where developer laziness is disguised as "harsh and realistic" game design. The game frequently follows conventional game design were innovating and detail takes too much time.The game doesn't even have a unified or fitting aesthetic that along with it looking a graphical upgrade of the first one with some more bs systems thrown makes it clear that this is only going to appeal to smug toxic trash who like to pretend they are worth something because they decided to waste their time on an shit game that is probably going to die quicker than the original .

[@maskettaman1488]

@@jigslast6843 So your saying it's bad because need to google some things and it's not as pretty as you want it to be? All you're doing is parroting the same lines you just heard in the video. Literal zombie

[@jigslast6843]

@@maskettaman1488 I hadn't even watched a fourth of the video before commenting. I played the original for a short time and i hated it, the only way to actually have some fun was to know a couple of established friends who could give you a leg up or explain some of the convoluted shit in the game to you. I have also watched enough of second one's gameplay from youtubers who love such games to know that the new one is just more of the same . I mean every single mmo with a small or niche community is automatically going to be toxic as fuck, have you ever played the game? I mean all the fans of it I know swear by the complicated nature of the game, a simple google search is not going to solve most of your problems. Kinda ironic you accuse me of being a zombie while not the awareness of realising that you are using retarded gamer logic 101 by deflecting all criticism by accusing others of being noobs

[@IRdatank]

SO FUCKING METAL In this epic tale, JSH flings himself nakedly at zombies in order to die so that he can then come back from the dead and harvest his own corpse for flesh in order to wrap it around a stick in an utterly pointless attempt to craft a weapon.

[@kermitdavis7452]

The fact is for a game like this to work there has to be some form of Play to earn mechanism. The reason that these socio-realistic games don't work is because they forgot about the most key factor in real life. Money.

[@JgHaverty]

Agreed. I can literally solve every issue this game could ever have with 2 words -> "base building". Holy shit could you imagine if they implemented ark/conan style base building mechanics into this game???

[@JgHaverty]

Probably wasnt super clear; base building can be a display of wealth, give a reason to grind for mats, reward exploration and crafting with higher tiered building supplies, and give some kind of end game fantasy of building your massive base youd have to defend from others. I believe they are in unreal engine too; so it would be very simple to implement as well lol

[@rhaiden7966]

Wtf are u guys talking, you can build in this game and if you hold a keep you even earn taxes