Mother Goes to Jail for Son's Shooting

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[@LegalEagle]

Will this case lead to more charges against parents?☕ Get your first bag free with Trade Coffee legaleagle.link/trade ⚖⚖⚖ Do you need a great lawyer? I can help! legaleagle.link/eagleteam

[@osmosisjones4912]

Don't the people asked in a survey or poll matter more then the people asking the poll . And why are their no left wing polls on How people believe joe Biden's election was legitimate. Focusing on the source of poll seems like copium

[@osmosisjones4912]

School shootings happen mostly in Gun free zones

[@osmosisjones4912]

Don't the people asked in a poll matter more then the people taking the poll. Why are no left wing sources on how people believe joe Biden legitimately won.. focusing on sources of who asked rather who answered seems like copium

[@osmosisjones4912]

Shouldn't the people asked in a poll matter more the people simply taking the poll. Focusing on the source seems like copium

[@curiousworld7912]

My problem is with this child being charged and convicted as an adult. He's even referred to, at one point, as a mentally disturbed child and Jennifer's minor child, and yet he will sit in prison for the rest of his life? Science has shown, time and again, that adolescent prefrontal lobe of the brain (which controls impulsivity, decision-making, and the concept of consequences) are, by definition, not fully formed. They are not adults. Yes, these parents do hold some responsibility for this terrible situation - although I worry about parents being held liable for everything their children do - but their son doesn't deserve life without parole, either.

[@superkingoftacos2920]

"I'm an alcoholic with anger issues and I'm hallucinating." "okay, here's a gun."

[@I_like_aliens_from_mars]

Isn't that the standards of giving a gun?

[@jackhazardous4008]

​@@I_like_aliens_from_marsno, just a cop

[@Elizabeth-xp2sf]

Exactly. They gave him access to something he never should have had access too. They literally gave him what he needed to committ his crime.

[@jackhazardous4008]

@@Elizabeth-xp2sf I'm pretty sure they expected him to turn it on himself, which is even more horrifying than what happened as far as their mindset goes

[@theguythatcoment]

SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED

[@mikelxanadu]

“Can you at least reply” is a text a child should NEVER have to send their parent

[@user-iy1tv9rx9p]

Especially when the parents just casually hanging out.

[@jellibelly]

That just broke my heart.

[@therealdeal3672]

Absolutely mind-blowing and heartbreaking.

[@schrodingerskatze4308]

Parents can't always reply to text. It's pretty normal for parents to expect their child to call when it's important enough for them to drop everything and respond immediately. Text is what you choose when it can wait.

[@therealdeal3672]

​@@schrodingerskatze4308in order to be a good parent one should respond to your kid's texts ASAP. Show some caring. Especially, parents need to listen to what their kids are saying. Jennifer Crumbly just seemed like she wanted to ignore the red flags her son was waving. She put him last.

[@AndreaALenze]

When Ethan was arrested and charged, instead of going to the police station to support their son and face what he did, the parents went on the run. They knew they were guilty before the case ever went to trial.

[@Harlem55]

A fact which the state cannot rightfully enter into evidence in the first place because of the near absolute constitutional right not to be in contact with the police outside of an arrest situation. So your point is exactly what, other than the Defendants exercised a legal right?

[@AndreaALenze]

@@Harlem55 my point is that they knew they were guilty

[@bongkey2210]

@@Harlem55 the parents knew there was a warrant out for their arrest. They were trying to evade their capture. They should have turned themselves in immediately rather than going on the run.

[@magnolia6968]

@@Harlem55This is a youtube comment section, not a courtroom.

[@laura_saurusrex]

​@Harlem55 except they were supposed to turn themselves in and didnt? And were hiding in the basement of some art gallery in detroit, very close to Canada, likely trying to flee the country. Conjecture? Yes, but you'd be hard pressed to find 2 juries worth of people in the area who didn't know about that from when it was very publicly going on.

[@curtshilling1976]

When she was on the stand and said that she wouldn't have done anything different. That sealed her fait. My nephew is one of the students killed that day. I hope she rots in prison. She has no remorse about the shooting. She only has remorse that she got caught or has been inconvenienced by this whole incident.

[@JohnWelsh-oz3jz]

I’m sorry for your loss. I have two nieces and one nephew and I could not begin to imagine the pain if I lost them. I’m so, so, so very sorry for you. 😢

[@Leomoon101]

I'm so sorry for your loss. This should NEVER have to happen to anyone.

[@jennaolbermann7663]

I’m so sorry for the loss of your nephew.

[@wolflarsen1900]

as a german who has nothing to do with that case i can only say its wrong and it doesnt changes anything that she will rot in prison. America will still have school shootings every day as you now have and all the years had. You allready have the hardest sentences in the world in america, real life long prison sentences even for kids. Now also sentencing the mothers wont prevent anything in a country where more weappons exist than people. I hope that the fulfilled feeling of revenge and justice trough punishment will help all the victims, if somebody has to have to rot in prison forever for the actions of another human being at least there should be at least a bit of positive effects somewhere. I hope at some day americans will understand why only in america the most likely reason of dead of a child in america is get shot. Its so absurd. I am sorry for the mother of the victim

[@nathanglasser6845]

I have a niece and nephew, it would be horrific to lose them in a shooting. So sorry for the lose of your nephew! Up here in Canada, it's rare for mass shootings in schools. But they do occur, and any is too many.

[@ryanjeanes5253]

When she says she "never heard her son request a therapist" she's probably telling the truth. He said it; she didn't hear it, because she didn't listen nor did she want to listen.

[@kellynine7438]

Maybe it was in one of those texts she never bothered to reply to.

[@Nickname-ef9tv]

Most of all you can't expect a 15 year old to be able to articulate their need for a therapist and only then start acting. Parents at the very least need to be able (and willing) to figure out their child needs help and if all else fails seek external help.

[@authenticallysuperficial9874]

She's telling the truth because it's in a private journal that she had't read...

[@invadersin5203]

@@Nickname-ef9tv "willing" is the key here. Doesn't sound like she wanted to be a mum and certainly seems to do just the bare minimum to get him out the door at 18.

[@Michadoo]

But she admitted she laughed at him when he asked to see one

[@capitainemmhenri1299]

The "I would not have done anything different" was probably the nail in the coffin

[@calicodavis1511]

I remember when I first heard she said that and I was absolutely gobsmacked.

[@blazeesq2000]

I think legally (not a lawyer), saying "I wish I did X otherwise." Would be admitting fault as well. "So you knew your child...?"

[@capitainemmhenri1299]

@@blazeesq2000 from other reporting I saw, she got asked the question "with knowledge of how everything ended up, would you have done something differently?" I am not a lawyer either and maybe there was no right answer, but I am trying to see it as if I was a member of the jury.

[@Ghostykins]

​@@blazeesq2000I realized this too when talking to my husband. It's kinda a no-win question. If you say you would have done stuff differently it seems like you're admitting you did wrong and by your actions something could have changed. Saying no it just sounds like you don't give a shit 4 kids died by your kid's hands.

[@robertnett9793]

@@Ghostykins Yeah.. any answer is up to interpretation. It's hard to give a concise answer, that can't be misrepresented. "I wouldn't have done anything different." can mean "I don't see, what I could have done different to prevent what happened." - but people will hear "I don't care what went down." depending on their opinion on her... The other way around you can read it as "I didn't know my son was capable of such a thing." (Thus if I had I would have done different things) or "I knew it would go badly so I would do things different now, that I've been met with repercussions."

[@robynrider4657]

Being from Oregon, I have met people who knew the family of Kip Kinkle who committed a mass shooting at Thurston High School. His parents did try to get him help and were unable to. Kip killed his parents before committing murder at his school. The Crumbley’s were not the same. They actively sought to provide their son with a gun. They are responsible for their son’s actions that day.

[@maggie6152]

Oh god I remember that case. Read I sort of "where are they now?" article and he finally got treatment, which led him to regain his mental faculties, and now he's having to spend his life in jail knowing what he's done and that there was nothing he could have done himself to stop it. His sister eventually forgave him and visits him regularly in prison. It was so heartbreaking and even though I support way more gun control, it upsets me when democrats try to say this isn't ALSO a mental healthcare access issue. We need both.

[@soldiaz7261]

@@maggie6152i have never heard a single democrat say it isn't ALSO a mental health issue. when people say "this isn't a mental health issue, it's a gun issue" they don't literally mean mental health isn't involved--they mean that you need a gun to commit gun violence, and mental health is not the root of the problem. mentally healthy people shoot people all the time. people without guns don't.

[@GryphonBrokewing]

This was the right call here, in THIS specific case. The parents ignored his warning signs, his calls for help, *bought for him* the pistol that he could not have gotten himself (if he had to get it illegally, may have been caught trying), left the pistol unsecured for him and refused to take him out of school when the school said to because they had "other things" to do. This was depraved indifference toward their child and the consequences of that, especially with him matching so many of the mass public murderer profiles highlighted in so many new stories. That's not precedent for ALL cases, just this one and any others like it on a case by case basis.

[@Harlem55]

Except for the fact it is blatently wrong - negligence requires duty and a rather long line of precedent predating Miller v. California establishes that the school, and not the parrent, had the duty to the third party at the time of the shooting by reason of in locco parrentis. Therefore, this case failed to properly state a negligence claim. Had this been charged as child neglect I might reach a different conclusion.

[@GryphonBrokewing]

@@Harlem55 School didn't buy the firearm and give the child unfettered access to it. School tried to get the parents to take the child to get counseling, or at least be out that day. Parents refused, they had "better things" to do. Schools have legal restrictions on what they can & can't do. Only thing I can see differently is that the school could have searched him & his possessions to find his firearm.

[@scipocelah6677]

I completely agree, and more importantly it opens up the precedent for parents who do the same thing to be charged, which will hopefully get more parents to pay attention to their child's needs. I doubt it will, but I can hope

[@FrenkTheJoy]

Yeah I'm on the fence about if the school deserves the lawsuit, but his parents sure as hell do. There are plenty of cases where the signs are only obvious in hindsight, or were pretty subtle, or whatever. Ethan was literally like "I'm experiencing a mental health crisis and need to see a doctor" and his parents were like "here's a gun." They deserve every bit of punishment.

[@NeoCreo1]

⁠@@Harlem55 The only thing blatantly wrong is your understanding of the facts of this case.

[@danielhoward8354]

She wasnt convicted for CAUSING him to do the shooting. She was convicted for ALLOWING him to do the shooting.

[@MrBrock314]

Allowing isn't the right word even. Not preventing is more accurate. She didn't give permission but she could've prevented him doing it multiple times and didn't. Not telling the school that you have 4 guns in your home during a meeting about your son being mentally disturbed and drawing a gun and talking about blood? Sure, I can imagine you don't want them to look badly at you but community safety trumps your pride.

[@redjellonian8126]

Extreme negligence

[@MunkyDrag0n]

​​@@redjellonian8126 More accurately "gross negligence" as defined by Michigan law.

[@cogandball]

Are you sure or did she buy the gun so he would do something with it just not shoot the school. Convicted went past my brain

[@Nickname-ef9tv]

Also they enabled him to do the shooting. Maybe, depending on what caused their son's psychological issues, even caused it. In any case, with almost any other set of parents in their stead 4 people would still be alive.

[@stodo1337]

"I wish my son was into normal things" *buys him gun* The lock combination was '0000' I'm about to scream

[@ruben307]

I believe it said 000. So it probably was a bad 3 combination lock.

[@HellecticMojo]

Even President Scroob and king of Drudia had 1234 as their luggage combination.

[@Aliceintraining]

@@HellecticMojo guess i need to change my luggage combo now

[@Rikard_Nilsson]

@@HellecticMojoActually the king of druidia and President Scroob had 1-2-3-4-5 as the combination. That's 100000 combinations, 3 numbers is 1000, and beefing up one avenue of security more than the other is just a waste of money so if your lock only has 3 numbers it's probably not physically strong either.

[@OrigamiMarie]

At any point along the way, one or the other parent could have said "y'know, the kid seems pretty distressed, maybe we just shouldn't have guns in the house at all" and found temporary or permanent places to store the guns not on the property. Certainly they didn't need to buy the "weird" kid a gun of his own. So many missed opportunities, so many obvious ways to reduce the potential for harm.

[@UseZapCannon]

Can't believe I'm saying this, but you begin to feel bad for the shooter - begging for help until you broke, and now your parents are each on trial, saying that you breaking was inevitable and there was absolutely no way they could have helped you

[@Hydraina]

Honestly, that kid doesn't need an entire lifetime in prison. He needs help.

[@LordSandwichII]

@@Hydraina I'm almost willing to go with the idea that he was completely out of his mind at the point when he committed the act because his mental health had been allowed to deteriorate to that point that he snapped.

[@pamelatucker3504]

Additionally, Jennifer Crumbley said she wished her son would have killed herself and her husband. I feel that was a very selfish way of thinking. That would have left Ethan to suffer the consequences (life in prison) while Mom and Dad died. Why not regret having purchased the gun instead?

[@coleg5578]

@@HydrainaI’d argue the reason he does need a lifetime in prison is not for him, it’s to add more deterrence for the next person who thinks about committing such an act. Historically this was the reason for what we now consider inhumane punishments.

[@mastelsa]

@@Hydraina There was a great HuffPo article semi-recently with an extensive writeup and interviews from Kip Kinkel, who appears to be a similar case. He faced extremely harsh sentencing despite being a textbook case for the insanity plea because it was _the_ tough-on-crime era. His lawyers thought the jury would never accept it despite mountains of evidence this kid was not in his right mind and has a clearly identifiable mental illness making him believe with full conviction that he had no choice but to kill people. He seems to be doing extremely well after getting meaningful treatment for paranoid schizophrenia. The whole story is sad and infuriating--I don't think KZbin will let me link the article, but it's well worth looking up.

[@sparklestorm1236]

This is textbook child neglect. I’m glad my parents listened to my cries for help.

[@resplndnt]

and given the Burgeoning independence of adolescents, often when they want help, their parents just need to sign off on it and give them transportation.

[@omgkthxbi]

I think this case is unique because not only did the parents not STOP their kid, they bascially encouraged him by buying him a gun, knowing he was making threats in school.

[@citrinedreaming]

This is the only reasonable response to the people who are criticizing the decision of the jury; the parents failed their duty as parents in so many ways on more than one occasion and people died as a result

[@andrewharrison8436]

I would like to hope this case is unique - what is it with Americans and guns?

[@Tenchigumi]

"Mom, I need a therapist." "Here's a gun!"

[@sleeplessdev7204]

@@andrewharrison8436 It's a cultural remnant of how our country was founded and our Constitution

[@aohige]

I honestly feel like this particular case the parents were more in the wrong than the child. He expressed cry for help for god's sake.

[@eroseland]

The voices won't stop. Please help. If EVER there was a cry for help, this is literally it.

[@anna9072]

“Oh, he’s just such a joker…” 🙄

[@notme3920]

Maybe the voices are just trying to help you out man, you should listen to them.

[@alexthewrecker4666]

​@@notme3920"dip your balls in the boiling water" -the voices in question

[@Pikachu2Ash]

Coby is that you?

[@MelkorRules]

Second amendment laughing in Americans faces.....this week we have an inept mother to blame......next week it going to be mental health....the week after....he had a gun....I had a gun...bang bang. How long are you going to keep up this charade 🇺🇸.

[@Billabonggg2011]

She wasn't convicted for "bad parenting" i.e. that's what could have caused him mental duress to the point he wanted to commit violence... she was convicted because she enabled, or almost basically aided and abetted him in this act. She GAVE him the gun with which he performed the shooting. She DIDN'T pull him from school when he threatened violence in his drawings and literally wrote "please help" mere hours before he committed the crime. She DIDN'T tell him to stop looking for ammunition, just to "not get caught" while doing so. I mean... helloooo???

[@snekysneks]

I heard a theory that she was hoping he would kill himself. She clearly didn't want to care for a child.

[@maryhales4595]

"The thoughts won't stop, help me." LITERALLY a cry for help. And this woman still has the gall to say she wouldn't do anything differently. I'm not a parent and have no desire to be one. But if my niece said something like this, I'D GET HER HELP.

[@erictaylor5462]

My aunt is retired now, but she spent her career as a school counselor. In 1998 her best friend Faith Kinkel was murdered by her son, along with her husband. Kip then proceeded to his school where he shot up a bunch more people. 2 more died. She had to go to work and help kids deal with the event shat shoe could hardly deal with herself. She doesn't talk about it much. But she is interviewed in the documentary they made about this shooting. Remember when school shootings were so rare it justified not only a 3 minute segment on the news, but an entire 1 hour long documentary?

[@arctictruck10]

We can't fix stupid, but we can give it a court date

[@namantherockstar]

Legal inspires me.. My parents said if i get 70K followers They'd buy me a professional camera for recording..begging u guys , literally Begging..

[@SkunkApe407]

​@@namantherockstarstop spamming this BS. Nobody cares what your parents said, nor do we want to hear what some kid who lives with his parents thinks about the law. Go flip burgers or something. Earn the money for a camera, if that's what you want. Stop begging. It's annoying and isn't going to get you anywhere. Do you think Legal Eagle begged for his college tuition? Do you think Mr. Beast begged for his first camera?

[@bluegold21]

You can't fix stupid but you can take the guns out of the equation. Blaming the parents is just another bs attempt to protect weapon manufacturers and the gun lobby.

[@skrumbobumbo3279]

​@@bluegold21this is the dumbest take I've ever seen. If the parents had never purchased their son that firearm and responsibly locked up their own he wouldn't have had easy access and they wouldn't have been convicted. It's not about being pro or anti gun, it's about a mother who cares neither for her son or her husband and neither parent accepting the very obvious signs their son was unhealthy.

[@hieronymusbutts7349]

​@@bluegold21 "A sword does not kill; it is an instrument in the hands of a killer" - Seneca the Younger

[@mmarksz86]

If politicians want to increasingly push "parental rights", as in parental control over their children and their education (or other areas of their lives), then they also have to accept that this makes parents increasingly liable for the actions of their children.

[@callsignapollo_]

Thats part of the problem, they want the *"right"* to not take responsibility for their actions. Its why when their calls for action or actionable threats have consequences, they jump to the 1A as if the right to free speech is a right to not having social consequences. Prime example being that in most of Trumps lawsuits, he isnt arguing that he *didnt* do it, but that *he should be allowed to do it* because of who he is.i say FAFO

[@nikkafrog]

My thoughts exactly. As a parent, you are responsible for your child until the become an adult. That included teaching them how to be a law abiding adult. There are scenarios where parents are clueless and it is not their fault. This is not that scenario.

[@ZepherENocora]

The parent is/was already responsible for most of not all actions of a kid until they hit 18. Alternatively phrased - you are still responsible for raising your kids, not the schools.

[@bobbycrosby9765]

If the parent is so liable why was the son charged as an adult? It makes no sense to me.

[@callsignapollo_]

@bobbycrosby9765 probably because theres not a less severe charge for a teen committing homicide? If you murder someone, you committed a felony of the highest level, there's no reduced sentence version of murder for those under 18

[@JJ-qo7th]

You know you've got a losing case when someone says, "But think of the precedent about holding people accountable!"

[@teamcybr8375]

_sideeyes a certain former president_

[@DracoMagnius]

​@@teamcybr8375 Listen that former president knows he's guilty he just thinks he should be above the law.

[@somedragonbastard]

​@@teamcybr8375 fr "no we can't do this then we'll have to hold every president accountable!" YES I'D LIKE THAT "but that includes biden!" YEAH HES A WAR CRININAL TOO

[@tabithal2977]

@@somedragonbastard i dont think you know what war crimes are, or what you need to do to be a war criminal

[@oswaldrabbit1409]

you realize that most criminal rights stem from this exact form of argumentation? Rare is the case a jury finds the 'rights' of a murderer particularly important, what has consistently been advanced most successfully to argue for these rights is the precedents set by limiting those rights in regards to innocents.

[@Simone-uu8ne]

Once again, I cannot comprehend why a 15-year-old would even need a gun in the first place. It might be that I'm not from the US, but to me, kids shouldn't be allowed near a firearm.

[@lord0jackostar]

Congrats, you come from a sane country that likes to keep its citizens alive…don’t try understanding the American mind in this area, it won’t help. All you’ll see are the basic facts of reality that the US insists can’t possibly apply in their case.

[@FrenkTheJoy]

Someone suggested that his parents were actually hoping he'd unalive himself, hence why they got an obviously disturbed and depressed 15 year old a gun and did nothing to keep him from using it unsupervised.

[@lord0jackostar]

@@FrenkTheJoythe more I hear about these “parents”, the more I’m convinced breeding licenses should be a thing. Like, how does someone screw up a kid this spectacularly and not be doing it deliberately?

[@duane_313]

It’s partially cause you’re not from the IS. Different culture. Some people here in the US truly believe guns are just tools and it’s no big deal to be looking up bullets online. But this kid was sick and crying out for help, yet his parents didn’t care.

[@kyledabearsfan]

​@@FrenkTheJoy part of the issue is gun education, guns are tools, and you need to properly know about your firearm, the reason for its use, and basic civility and the cost of mistakes. A lot of states have these firearms but the purchasers don't educate themselves. She does deserve charges, criminal neglect at minimum, but I agree with harsher terms as well.

[@jessicaolson490]

She brought her mentally disturbed teen to shooting ranges and bought him a gun and left it out with blatant signs he was thinking of shooting people... I don't think a properly responsible parent would have duplicated those choices.

[@usingThaForce]

That's every crazy European I run into😮😮

[@WolfieDawn]

Her best defense is so far is "I thought he was gonna kill himself not others" which, wtf??

[@KrackerUncle]

put them both in jail then...

[@tatkkyo9911]

I have no idea why she would give him his own gun with unfettered access.

[@Harlem55]

"Blatant Signs" according to whom? "Signs of a school shooting" would seem to be Daubert evidence - and hence cannot be used to support a negligence claim upon the view that there is very little science on point and the experts on point often disagree. Therefore, this passes the reasonable person threshold exactly how? The other problem I see with your argument is that there is generally no duty to protect others in our society - that falls as the tenth amendment police power which belongs to the state. Hence it was the states duty not the parrents.

[@SS-xr7jf]

“There’s nothing that could have been done to prevent the shooting” What??? You bought your kid a gun and then didn’t lock it up properly. wtf? That’s like baby’s first gun safety rules.

[@WolfieDawn]

That would have required her to care about her kid at least minorly. She didn't and still doesn't. The father is just as guilty.

[@FrenkTheJoy]

"We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!"

[@Alvan81]

​@FrenkTheJoy Wish I could give 100 likes .

[@fdm2155]

@@FrenkTheJoy "We're also not open to any of the professionals advice, requests or suggestions" But yeah... we did the best we could. Their son should be able to sue them for negligence too! Who ignores a depressed teen who asks for a therapists? wtaf?

[@ccricers]

@@FrenkTheJoy It's more of a highly skeptical "THAT would never happened with our son" attitude and then are in shock when it actually does happen to them.

[@TUBESTOOL]

I volunteer in a diversion program for kids and young adults. It's shocking how many of the kids in trouble either didn't have parents or have terrible parents. Parental responsibility is paramount to keep not just your kids safe but everyones kids safe.

[@venuae]

Woah. Parents influence their children? That's an insane and radical belief

[@reed560]

Yeah, I think the defense kinda did not recognize that the argument is gross negligence. Cause when you say "I didn't know he was a danger to others, I never heard him say he needs a therapist," that only doubles the problem. It shows a distinct lack of necessary care. Kinda funny to me I guess

[@Eguzky]

Bloody hell. There's a reason I believe the parents are at fault: When I was in middle school (So, in the mid-90's), a teacher caught me doodling deathtrap mazes on some paper. Just lil stick figures in deadly mazes. She, of course, told my mother. Mom asked me if they were meant to be anyone I knew, to which I replied "No. They're just stick figures in deadly mazes." She asked why I was drawing stick figures dying. I...honestly had no answer. It was just something I felt like doodling. She then asked if I ever imagined any of the people who bullied me being those stick figures. The idea actually made me feel bad to consider. Like, to the point of actually feeling a bit sick about it. And I said so. Her reply? "I believe you. But I still feel it would we best if we talked to a therapist, ok? Maybe something's going on that not even you are conciously aware of?" A+ parenting, in my book. She let me know she accepted my answers, was on my side, and also gave **me** the choice to accept going to a therapist, while giving a valid reason for going. So I did not feel attacked or alienated or ignored. The therapist did not find anything alarming, and I quickly grew out of doodling stick figures in deathtraps. 😁 The parents in this case actively ignored red flags (and their son in general), and then try to claim "We never saw it coming!" Well NO CRAP! You were ignoring the source of the red flags; YOUR FREGGING SON!

[@MrT3a]

Similar story on my part. Concerning doodles, some sessions with a therapist, nothing alarming, grew out of it. Still dealing with other mental scars due to too much expectations from my parents, school teachers, and myself (I've always been hard on myself, frog and ox problem), but at least my parents cared, and I now know I can (and do) work on it with the professionals needed. In this kid's case, the parents actively ignored the cries for help.

[@aceman0000099]

I wrote a couple of graphic stories at school for Halloween, and they were clearly very video game inspired, to me I was just trying to be funny and provocative. once my parents found out they banned me from playing games that were 18+ (twice my age) Looking back I probably could have become a lot creepier if they didn't intervene

[@trudivination8497]

I used to draw the boys of my class being tortured to death (I labeled each) as stick figures whenever they teased me as a little kid, school eventually brought this up to my parents who just dismissed it as an active imagination. There could be something to be said about if my gender played a role in this getting dropped so quickly but I think the fact that this happened like a day after I cried my eyes out cause my cat brought me a beautiful dead bird as a present was a factor. Kids are sometimes just a bit morbid.

[@annekeener4119]

Exactly. If they had taken any efforts to get him some sort of therapy, even just pulling him out of school that day like school officials wanted or mentioning that they bought the kid his own gun at the meeting, I would not consider them liable. The barest attempt to get their son help and control their weapons would have prevented them from being liable.

[@floricel_112]

When I was a kid, I liked drawing stick figures at war. Like, really going at it. Planes were falling out of the sky, buildings were being blown up by tanks, people would be falling off those crumbling buildings etc. The best reason I can give is that war drawings from history atlases always fascinated me. It's really captivating to see how much chaos and how many different scenes can be conveyed in a single image

[@Deltarious]

The defence *really* went with the "‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens" Onion attempt for closing arguments? That's insane.

[@elonstruths1475]

I'm not sure I understand the defense's strategy at all. It seemed to be to allow Jennifer to be portrayed in the worst possible light and then to say that even if she's a horrible mom, there was nothing that could have been done different. Except there is quite obviously lots that could have been done different.

[@Bird_Dog00]

Sounds like Poe's Law to me.

[@TenmasSchoolOfThought]

Are the defense public defenders or paid criminal defense attornies?

[@consciouscode8150]

Parents like Jennifer exist in every country across the world, but the US has more school shootings than all others combined. It's not so much that "there was no way to prevent this" as it is "the system in other countries supports kids and parents enough that parents like Jennifer don't inadvertently cause a school shooting". I don't like the ruling because it scapegoats a convenient party, the negligent mother, instead of focusing on the deeper systemic causes.

[@damenwhelan3236]

Reminds me of Flanders parents in the simpsons "We tried nothing, and we're out of ideas!"

[@j.stonehouse5004]

I'm glad her negligence was recognized by the jury.

[@glenjennett]

"School shootings are not unusual in this country." That should never have been a true statement EVER. It is proof of how this country has fallen with little hope of recovery and it's why I hate being part of it. The wrong people are being blamed, but whatever. This country is out of control.

[@AD-dg3zz]

If only the NRA wasn't so good at lobbying.

[@glenjennett]

@@AD-dg3zz If only politicians weren't idiots. I wish they would just outlaw guns in this country.

[@somedragonbastard]

​@@glenjennett they're not stupid. They know the refusal to regulate is killing people. They just don't care.

[@voidytb]

"there is no way to stop that" says the only country that has this problem

[@silentdrew7636]

I vaguely remember that onion article

[@MakusinMeringue]

@@silentdrew7636"There Was No Way To Prevent This," Says Only Country Where This Regularly Happens

[@cedrickulacz8468]

@@silentdrew7636 vaguely remember? They keep publishing it.

[@Balsiefen]

From so long ago too. From across the ocean it's incredibly bizarre to watch support for guns continue to swell while the deaths mount and mount. The psyche required is quite alien.

[@GreebleClown]

@@cedrickulacz8468If the shoe fits why stop wearing it?

[@BelEnnui]

Their son was literally begging for help and she just dismissed him as weird. If you're not going to take care of your kids then DON'T HAVE KIDS.

[@Keithustus]

Not really a CHOICE in some parts of the U.S.

[@thegrimharvest]

Him: "💀👿🔫💀🔫☠🔫💀👿🔫🔫🔫" Her: "Oh! Haha! What a kidder! What a goofy jokester! 🤣☻🤡☠💩 🙊🙉🙈

[@SimonBuchanNz]

It was stated that she didn't choose to have the kid. I might raise an eyebrow at the lack of any actual actions towards not getting pregnant, aborting, giving the kid away, or just accepting that you have to put up with caring for this kid for less than two decades, but what do I know, I've never had kids and therefore can't possibly understand.

[@RedDragon-og8wn]

I mean if we believe the testimony she referred to him as an oopsie baby

[@thegrimharvest]

@@RedDragon-og8wn sort of explains a few things if that's factually so, and he was an unwanted. Her cheating raises bigger question, did it start only recently or has it been ongoing behavior, in which case is the kid even her husband's son or is there a double meaning to him being an oopsie baby?

[@x77punk77x]

These so-called parents were horrifically negligent and the fact that they stole their own kid’s bank balance when going on the lam after Ethan was apprehended speaks volumes about their despicable selfishness. Their son was clearly suffering for a prolonged period, exhibiting severe depression & obviously psychotic episodes. They were themselves so emotionally juvenile, self-involved, and callous-into-cruel in ways that probably not only exacerbated his emotional distress and suicidality but encouraged him to emulate their behavior patterns of repressing perceived vulnerability/weakness in favor of embracing contempt and aggression towards others. Providing the weapon was part of their imbecilic philosophy of acting cold and tough and “manning up” and denying/masking underlying psychological decline. Ethan arguably didn’t have a chance given the “parents” he depended on who seemed to have no idea how to do anything but fail him over and over.

[@DrumWild]

I grew up GenX, and got bullied a lot in school. So many times, my father would put on his police uniform and go visit the parents to have a talk. Without exception, in every single case, this did NOTHING to move the parents and only made things worse by causing the bullying to escalate. When I finally fought back to defend myself, I got in big, big, serious trouble. The bullies NEVER got into this kind of trouble. Too many "parents" seem to just "have children," in the same way they "have a dog," when they chain it to the far corner of the back yard and leave it to rot.

[@mauirandall8176]

And if the dog gets in trouble they always 100% fully blame the dog

[@chrise8275]

Every child deserves parents, But not every parent deserves a child.

[@SilverMe2004]

That is a lot less meaningful than in most other context. if you are a parent you have a child whether you wanted one or not

[@rodrigojds]

just because a person can have a child doesn't mean they should have one

[@maryhales4595]

"The thoughts won't stop, help me." LITERALLY a cry for help. And this woman still has the gall to say she wouldn't do anything differently. I'm not a parent and have no desire to be one. But if my niece said something like this, I'D GET HER HELP.

[@itscarl0zyall1]

I get what you're trying to say, but you ARE a parent if you have a child 😂

[@f1rebreather123]

Doesnt meanthey deserve that child.​ @itscarl0zyall1

[@trevinbeattie4888]

As a former teenager, I can attest that parents need to keep their own guns safely locked away in a manner that teens can’t easily get them out. There’s no legitimate reason to give kids their own gun unless it’s a water gun, BB gun, or non-working replica. I sincerely hope this encourages all parents to be more responsible with any dangerous weapons and to be more attentive in their children’s development.

[@namantherockstar]

Legal inspires me.. My parents said if i get 70K followers They'd buy me a professional camera for recording..begging u guys , literally Begging..

[@warhokn4178]

When I was a teenager I had access to guns. However I didnt have any suicidal or violent tendencies. I was into hunting and in a country area so I feel like its normalized.

[@GreebleClown]

Heck, my parents wouldn’t even let me have water guns unless they were non-gun shaped. It was dolphin squirters and stick swords for me, and I was fine with that.

[@SuperAmaton]

My oppinion might be skewed since I don't live in the USA and have never owned a firearm myself, but I don't think any child should without adult supvervision be able to access ANY firearm. It should also be made clear that guns are tools used by soldiers (and in some sports i guess), not a toy, NEVER a toy. If you cut yourself accidentally with a knive, you likely only have to go to the doctor. But with a gun, its far more likely a doctor can't do anything anymore.

[@Creeperfun12]

as someone from england, seeing how easily teens are able to get guns in america amazes me.

[@kepecos]

"She began her opening statement with, 'Bandaids can't fix bullet holes'...that was a CHOICE." I love the lawyer shade ❤

[@miriamart9712]

I am on the 7 minute plus time mark and what I'm thinking is this mom wanted her kid to delete himself. 😢

[@nlwilson4892]

I was thinking the same. It seems they just didn't want him, they were going off and having fun and leaving him alone. They're aware he is disturbed enough to get drunk alone and yet buy him a gun and do nothing to secure it.

[@WolfieDawn]

Yeah no the definitely were hoping the repercussions would be himself or solely fall on him. They absolutely did not want him. Things like this is why Roe v Wade should be brought back because people who do not want children should not have them.

[@miriamart9712]

@@WolfieDawn Roe vs Wade would not have change this outcome. If religion didn't force women to have unwanted children, they would abort with out feeling shame. Plus this kid is old and R v W was in place at the time of his conception.

[@chayden153]

Oh 100% I feel like they only got him a gun just in case he decided to game over himself.

[@claireity8490]

opening with "bandaids don't fix bullet holes" in a case of a school shooting has got to rank up there with one of the worst opening lines in a court case ever. I wouldn't say it's the worst but it's got to be up there.

[@SnazziestOfSnazzy]

Better than using lyrics from “Pumped up Kicks”.

[@TakenTook]

The defense attorney was clumsy and offputting in so many ways throughout this trial. I know she became famous defending Larry Nasser, and I did not watch that trial as closely as I've watched the Oxford situation, but she really seemed unprepared and did a lot of complaining.

[@NeutralDrow]

Trying to imagine a hypothetical worse line, and the only thing coming to mind is "Sure, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, she did it, but...I mean, c'mon, right?"

[@thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527]

Damn, if I was Taylor I would’ve sued

[@melting_snowman]

@@SnazziestOfSnazzy "Your honour, if the students didn't want to get shot, they should have simply outrun his gun."

[@Nemonurwingy]

“You never would think you have to protect your child from harming someone else.” That’s the biggest pile of garbage in this whole thing. Of course you do. Most parents aren’t going to buy their kids guns, but most parents are going to have their kids drive. And they are absolutely responsible for making sure their kids aren’t menaces on the road. This is an outstanding verdict, she was absolutely negligent in this case, even buying the gun in the first place was crazy given his history, but completely dropping the ball on all supervision is unforgivable.

[@DraconisLeonidas]

While it's stupid in this case, I don't think it's a generally odd sentiment. Even with driving, I think most parents will be more focused on having their kid drive safe so THEY stay as safe as they can, and other people are a secondary, though still important, focus. Not to mention that a gun is also a different matter than a car; cars are a part of our everyday life and have a purpose outside of potential harm- in fact, harm is the very opposite of the desired outcome. Guns, on the other hand, have little purpose besides destruction and harm, but even then, most parents are unlikely to want to think that their child could be capable of committing such a crime. That doesn't excuse any of this, of course, especially not the sheer negligence, I would say it's more of a defense for a parent that actually was doing an okay job and simply overlooked a smaller handful of less prominent warning signs.

[@sudokode]

You're mostly right, but buying a gun for a kid is absolutely common. You just probably don't live in an area where responsible gun ownership is common

[@JK-zt4ym]

The majority of boys in rural areas will at some point recieve a firearm from their parents before the age of 18. They have an obligation to lock it up, but your statement is incorrect.

[@Tonoborus]

agree, what a strange sentiment. When i take my kids to the playground i watch them play from a distance but i watch to make sure no other kids mess with them AND to make sure they don't mess with any other kids. teaching your kids to be just is a core moral duty of a parent (if not a legal one).

[@thepsion5]

​@@DraconisLeonidaspart of teaching your child to dri e is being safe for themselves AND everyone else on the road, even in cases where their dangerous behavior would primarily endanger other people (like hitting pedestrians for example). Part of raising a child is raising them not to be a danger to the people around them.

[@H-mz4hy]

I have never seen a more open and close case of parental negligence in my life. The school called them about his behavior, he was looking for ammunition at school and the parent's response was "did you show them the gun at least" and "learn how not to get caught". Their son clearly needed help and instead of addressing it and getting him any kind of help they ignored it. There are red flags and then there's this trail of behaviors which were clearly building to some kind of violent outburst, the only question being whether the target of it would be himself or the people around him.

[@deniseandrews113]

The boy wondered why he was even alive...and the parents bought him a gun

[@daltonfreeman6551]

Literally PLEASE HELP. Literally a cry for help, dismissed after an 11-minute conference. And then he shoots a school. That is absolutely gross negligence. The fact that they bought him the gun and put it behind a code of "000" is just icing on the cake.

[@spvillano]

A combo lock with three digits is pretty much not locked at all to begin with. They're the cheapest POS one can buy beyond a fire security box. Meanwhile, a secure safe for firearms that requires two keys being used at once to open it costs $320 on Amazon for a handguns only sized safe. The pistol retails for around $1k - $1200, one would reasonably presume other firearms in the house if one is being bought for the son's usage, so the cost of a properly secure safe is a drop in the bucket. And more than a reasonable protection on an investment.

[@insertianameia2224]

I like how shebinsist he didn't ask for a therapist or for help...Despite litteraly outright asking for help.

[@bertolid]

The gun used wasn't even in the safe

[@Bound4Earth]

Right, I think gun laws need to change, if you leave a weapon unsecured and someone takes it, you should be included in legal blame. Weapon handling negligence in America has gone on long enough. Fine, buy a gun, but if you do there should be requirements for the gun to be secured on your person or in gun safe of some kind. If missing, you better report it stolen because if some uses it to kill you should be responsible in part.

[@Bound4Earth]

​@anoNo lock can stop anyone, if they want your stuff they can get through that lock. It is a deterrent and if locked most will move onto the neighbor, but if you don't set up the lock it might as well not be there. You can get some cheap gun locks, no need for an expensive safe and they have gun boxes that are reasonably priced and can be locked. Which is why it was so massive for me. The fact that it was a combination was just more evidence that the parents were abusive and negligent.

[@wrinkles99]

This lady didn't see the warning signs, she flat out ignored them. This is absolutely painful to hear every single way she just never paid a single ounce of attention to her son. Heartbreaking it came to lives being lost.

[@ZombiZohm]

She encouraged the child to have problems

[@suebecker9972]

The gist of her testimony, from what I gathered is that she saw the warning signs but didn't think they weremactualreal,warning signs - basically a "hind sight is 20/20 defense". From being a mom myself (2 adult sons) my thinking is that she missed it BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T WANT TO AXKNOWLEDGE THE TRUTH, not to herself, and not to anyone else. It was perhaps a subconscious reaction, rather than an actual decision on her part, but it all comes down that the parents didn't see the warning signs because they never took off their own blinders

[@magimerlyn9596]

She refused to seek help for his persistent hallucinations. Personally, i think that should fall into the category of neglect, especially when we have written evidence that he's hearing voices and his parents weren't helping

[@hodgeelmwood8677]

That and the fact that she and her husband TRIED TO FLEE THE COUNTRY, leaving their son behind in prison awaiting trial. They were close to the Canadian border when they were found, and claimed that they were hiding from reporters, etc., and "they intended to return." Suuure they did.

[@fourcatsandagarden]

I fall on the side of 'more parents need to be held accountable for negligence of not properly preventing their kids from accessing guns/weapons.' Like its one thing if your kid goes completely behind your back to track down a gun on their own, or if you have proper safety mechanisms in place and they figure out how to get through them. But the lock's code was 000, come the fork on. At best, that's child neglect right there.

[@FlaviusTheGrumpyCat]

As a grown adult I can't even joke with my mom about me buying alcohol without her assuming the worst and trying to stage an intervention. This kid's parents really decided the best thing for their troubled teen was buying him a gun and teaching him to use it?!?!

[@dorpth]

This is something that sounds insane and unreasonable when you first hear it: "parents sentenced to jail for son's crime". But then you hear the actual details of their (in)actions, and you 100% agree.

[@Shenaldrac]

Yeah, it's a clickbaity title. They're not being sent to jail for their son's crime, they're being sent to jail for gross negligence in failing to prevent a school shooting.

[@mattosika]

@@Shenaldrac The problem for me is the selective prosecution.

[@TheManinBlack9054]

​@@Shenaldracremember that LegalEagle is another millionaire KZbinr that will exploit the system for clicks

[@Shenaldrac]

@@TheManinBlack9054Dude. He's a _lawyer._ Of course he's wealthy. He doesn't need KZbin for that XD

[@jackalo34]

​@@ShenaldracI mean the title is the truth n the video explains the details. Not clickbait.

[@jenniferellis2275]

Several years ago, my son had a slightly similar situation at school where I was called in for some disturbing writings. Neither the school nor I believed he was a danger to others but we were concerned about him harming himself. They MADE me take him home and have an evaluation done by a mental health professional before he could come back to school. I would have done it anyway because who wants their child to have that kind of pain. Seeing Ethan's writing where he is begging for help and the parents laugh it off fills me with rage. Not only did the allow him to kill 4 other people, but they also destroyed his life by being so selfish and self serving.

[@andreaweber8059]

This is a mix of two things: Parents not acting responsibly AND America apparently treating teenagers like adults as soon as it comes to responsibility. He should get treatment and a chance for life in society after.

[@scottmcshannon6821]

yes, theparents failed, and the school admins allowed them to fail, they should not have backed down to the parents.

[@jackalo34]

​@@andreaweber8059some teenagers do need to be tried as adults esp if wat they do is so srs. Also, there are kids that have abused not being an adult to commit crimes n off with little to no punishment. There comes a point where the kid should know better. In this case though, I feel like the child might still do well with some therapy in the future but his parents failed him for now. He was too unstable to know any better and I hope he gets parole n a chance to repent.

[@nlwilson4892]

@@scottmcshannon6821 I suspect that due to the attitude of the parents, the school thought that if he was sent home, he would be left alone. They might know that the parents had a history of leaving in the house alone for long periods.

[@megalonoobiacinc4863]

@@andreaweber8059teenagers are adults the moment they do something wrong or want to drive, but are otherwise innocent children right up to passing the 17 year mark...

[@qelizabeth_i_5013]

I know what he did. I am aware of how awful it was. But as someone who has dealt with mental issues, albeit focused on harming myself, I cannot help but to feel immense sorrow for that kid.

[@bararobberbaron859]

It kind of reminds me of the cannibal frat boy case. That guy just had a full on psychotic break, was Googling if maybe he was possessed and well, things derailed as things tend to do.

[@margodphd]

Yeah... With parents like these very few kids would stand a chance if they ever had mental health issues ... It almost felt like she wanted him gone, any way possible, he was just an obstacle, unwanted, unloved.

[@StephenBadger]

It's generally not a bad thing to both condemn the act, but sympathise with the circumstances that brought the person to the act. With that basis we as a society can start to make positive changes to help prevent it in future. "Bad person did bad thing" unfortunately is often too simplistic a mindset for most crimes.

[@StarxLolita]

"No way of knowing" LMFAO insane statement for her to make when they'd begged her to bring him home that day.

[@ronaldeliascorderocalles]

I also remember the case of the 6 year old who shot his teacher. Parents need to be responsible for their children. Their hands are not clean on this matter.

[@vvitch-mist20]

As the parent of a child who is that age I barely trust her with a butter knife, the fact the child was able to get a gun!? That's their own fault.

[@namantherockstar]

Legal inspires me.. My parents said if i get 70K followers They'd buy me a professional camera for recording..begging u guys , literally Begging..

[@LightPink]

Yeah but the six year old wasn't then charged as an adult

[@Dan-dy8zp]

@@LightPink Yes. The six year old one is different. Here, they're saying this mother should have known he was crazy, yet they found him guilty, and 'adult', not innocent by reason of incompetence. It's all a bit inconsistent.

[@ShihTzuPosting]

@@LightPink more than one person can be responsible for an outcome regardless of age. They’d be just as culpable if he was a 45 year old in their basement because their decisions would be just as clearly wrong.

[@jukahri]

"Nothing could have been done, it was unforseeable", said in the country where shootings are a *very* regular occurence and virtually nothing is done to stop them.

[@starwarriorterra8373]

Well in this case, if "nothing" was done, this tragedy might have been avoided, ironically enough! Seriously, what pieces of work those "parents" are. Their son deserves punishment for his actions, but that doesn't mean that he isn't also a victim of negligence and lack of care from those who were supposed to be raising and helping him. Instead, they give him a gun, don't do anything to ground him to reality, and ignore the warning signs every step of the way pointing to a mental unstable teen about to commit an irreversible act.

[@Keithustus]

Nothing? But our schools have locked doors, strict visitor policies, lockdown drills, all sorts of things. We've tried EVERYTHING. /s in case that's not clear.

[@linkesocke4533]

​@@KeithustusDon't forget the bulletproof backpacks. And the NRA also suggested that teachers should carry guns in school to defend the kids like in some Hollywood action movie. SMH. 😞

[@JargonMadjin]

@@Keithustus If you really were trying everything, you'd stop selling guns to people, because these shooters are clearly getting these guns from somewhere

[@Keithustus]

@@linkesocke4533 Oh and don't forget the militarization of our police including armored vehicles, tactical gear and assault weapons, and SWAT training, so that they SHOW UP AT THE SCHOOL AND DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHILE THE RAMPAGE HAPPENS SINCE THE OFFICERS MIGHT GET...... SHOT if they go inside, OMG who knew?

[@EXoDuZ302]

something to understand when it comes to bad parents is that the really bad ones never own up to their kids shortcomings because they think its their shortcomings "what? my son is disturbed? no no im a brilliant parent so he must just be joking!!"

[@MrZerodayz]

Defense really looked at a certain Onion article ("No way to prevent this, says only country where this regularly happens") and went "that might work as a defense"...

[@MrBattlecharge]

"You never would think you have to protect your child from harming others" YES! Yes you should absolutely teach your kids it is not okay to hurt others! This should be one of the first social lessons taught, usually around the time they are showing jealousy or retaliate for not getting their way (the terrible twos).

[@GokuSS400]

this is actually something that EVERY SANE and responsible parent worries about a lot. They worry their child might accidentally hurt someone. This is why we teach kids at an extremely early age that it's not ok to get into random fights, treat others with respect, etc.

[@daltonfreeman6551]

literally going through this now with my twins. I don't see how this isn't the first thing you learn to control in your children.

[@WitchOracle]

I'm not even a parent yet and this immediately stood out to me as the opposite of my philosophy. I absolutely care about my kids not hurting people, as much as I care about my kids not being hurt!

[@HotDogTimeMachine385]

"I wouldn't think I'd have to teach my child to (not harm others)" If you can't parent DON'T HAVE KIDS. You're there to teach them to be people!

[@S3lkie-Gutz]

I'm not a parent no do I ever want to be but I have volunteer experience working with cats in a rescue shelter and I see so many parents just letting their kids rough house and harass their pets it's insane. The first thing you should be teaching your child when needed is how to be gentle and is that it's not okay to hurt other people or animals, but no apparently it's not that important and inevitablely the animal fights back after being cornered by the kids so they send the animal to a shelter at least if they have the decency to not dump their pet somewhere or immediately get them euthanized. It's alarming how many parents actually don't think about this(maybe not many but still a very concerning amount)

[@cooperolm9687]

I struggled with severe depression as a teenager. When I was showing signs of being a risk to myself, even my tiny antique pocket knife I used when camping and was otherwise left on display was taken away, nevermind access to a gun! I don't know how a parent could read what he wrote and not think he was at high risk of using the firearm to kill himself, if not others. They clearly didn't even care if their own son lived or died.

[@davidbrayton1143]

That work page where he wrote the plea for help is incredibly heart wrenching. Those poor parents, knowing their children died after the shooter explicitly asked, nay, cried out for help. Utterly tragic. More tragic than any Shakespeare tragedy

[@nlwilson4892]

I wonder about them leaving him at home when they were going out horse-riding. Did he really dislike horses, or did they just always leave him alone when they were out having fun. They didn't seem to care about him at all. I really wonder if they made that gun available to him in the hope that he'd kill himself. Which is horrific to think of, but should be considered.

[@The_Real_Kyrros]

@@nlwilson4892Yeah, that possible motive of the gun purchase has definitely been stuck in my mind after watching this video - glad I'm not the only thinking her behavior would justify such a suspicion. I thought maybe I was just being too jaded.

[@jenniferredd1430]

@@The_Real_Kyrros The text Jennifer sent to EC when she heard there was a shooting was "don't do it" likely referencing the fact many school shooters shoot themselves at the end. It also tells me she reasonably believed her son would shoot up the school, as the only reports at the time were about a shooting, not who was doing the shooting. It also makes me think she thought he would kill himself without intervention. Poor kid didn't stand a chance with those parents.

[@nlwilson4892]

@@usingThaForceThat comment is totally uncalled for. There is no reason at all to think this person could be a danger to anyone. About 1 in 4 people have a mental health problem in any given year. It is generally the ones that don't realise or accept that they have a problem that are a danger to others. In this short post you display some worrying characteristics.

[@cheknauss9867]

Duuuude... One of the worst mothers I've ever heard of. Disgusting. The poor kid. Not even surprised he did that shooting, given his horrible parenting. She needs to be locked up for life.

[@jsthomson42]

The straight delivery on "That was a choice" had me rolling.

[@limalicious]

That child was literally asking for help, and yet their response was to ignore him. The only reason why she wished it was done to them instead is because she doesn't want to take responsibility for her failure.

[@geraldstephens6612]

Her & her husband, who also failed.

[@gianlucamorelli]

Why you guys keep selling/buying guns in the US? Depression and neglect are common elsewhere too, like in Europe we are not exempt, but nobody shoots at school regardless, because people don't have access to guns. Take the guns away, and innocent people who didn't have anything to do with the personal life of unfortunate individual who find themselves with depression or other internal struggle, will stop being just randomly massacred. Is it for ego that you don't let go of guns? I don't get it honestly

[@maryhales4595]

"The thoughts won't stop, help me." LITERALLY a cry for help. And this woman still has the gall to say she wouldn't do anything differently. I'm not a parent and have no desire to be one. But if my niece said something like this, I'D GET HER HELP.

[@RaveN_EDM]

@@gianlucamorelliit’s not only guns, we didn’t have school shootings being commonplace before columbine and gun laws were WAY more lax before the 1980s. Back then you can buy a fully automatic machine gun or buy shotguns at Walmart with just an ID. Just focusing on the guns will just turn mass shootings into mass stabbing, crashing with vehicles, improvised explosives, etc. it’s a mental health issue that needs to be addressed first.

[@Toonrick12]

​@@gianlucamorelliBecause acess to guns is more important than having a fair trial. 2nd before 6th.

[@Cheezitnator]

The saddest thing is if the kid had gotten the mental health help he needed (and wanted), this tragedy could have been prevented and he could've had a normal future. Be a parent to your kids. Listen to them, take them seriously and also set healthy boundaries.

[@nottiification]

Part of the problem is that mental healthcare is not covered by our corrupt health insurance industry. So even in the rare occasion that someone recognizes that they need mental healthcare and actually takes steps to receive it, their health insurance will do everything they can to make sure it doesnt happen. It'll be 100% out-of-pocket, and people who need mental healthcare are seldom in a position that they can afford it.

[@zdelrod829]

That's why part of me has no empathy for the mother. She had seen multiple red flags and ignored them. I live in Michigan. I was in school that day. Classes basically stopped because of how close Oakland County was. It was like it was in our backyard. It is not as hard-hitting until it happens near you.

[@bluester7177]

​​@@nottiificationThat doesn't seem to have been a problem here, if they can have horses and buy their son a gun, they probably could have taken him to a psychiatrist or psychologist.

[@diestormlie]

​@@nottiificationThey could have always sold some of the horses.

[@Piketom1]

Mental healthcare is not covered by insurance and it is very hard to get into an intensive care program for someone who is as disturbed as Ethan. What the US needs is an overhaul of our mental healthcare system and for school officials/social workers to have the authority to remove disturbed children from the home and force them to get care.

[@heidimelendez5623]

I have walked in some of shoes. My son was told to seek immediate psychological assistance. At that time, I went to my father who owned a considerable gun collection and told him to be careful and not allow my son access to them, He received care over several years and is now has a great job and is relatively well, That parent failed her duty,

[@SheyD78]

Parents need to be held accountable for this kind of absentee parenting. Being busy at work, struggling to get along is one thing. Going horse riding and ignoring your son, but buying him a HANDGUN and letting him get drunk is not excusable. There might not be an easy fix for some childrens problems, but preventing their access to firearms as far as possible is one step any parent can take.

[@alexandrorocca7142]

Parents could argue that such an event was impossible to foresee before Columbine, but not after dozens of school shootings and so many children and teachers killed. How could anyone forget that US schools have active shooter drills?

[@CRneu]

Dozens of school shootings? Dude, columbine was in 1999. A quick google pulled up school shootings since 2008, so we're missing 8 years of data here, but we've had 638 school shootings since 2008. In less then 16 years we've had almost 650 school shootings. That's 40 PER YEAR.

[@SKy_the_Thunder]

" 'No Way to Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens" - The Onion headlines after any mass shooting

[@augustuslunasol10thapostle]

@@SKy_the_Thunder the onion isn’t even a satire when it comes to this its just the truth

[@seannanana84]

And even Columbine had warnings prior to the shooting. There were concerned parents, the shooters had a disturbing webpage but the Colorado PD ignored it and the rest is history.

[@maryhales4595]

"The thoughts won't stop, help me." LITERALLY a cry for help. And this woman still has the gall to say she wouldn't do anything differently. I'm not a parent and have no desire to be one. But if my niece said something like this, I'D GET HER HELP.

[@stealthassasin1day291]

The audacity to claim she did the best she can as a parent while ignoring her child's concerns, texts and out looking for hook ups with other men aside from her husband at the same time. Sicken

[@dr.archaeopteryx5512]

Maybe she was talking about the horses. Still probably wrong though.

[@o.b.7217]

Her hooking up with other men has zero to do with the rest.

[@Sharpstoned]

Well that's just not true. Certain "types" of people cheat and they are reprehensible.

[@dr.archaeopteryx5512]

@@SharpstonedCheating happens for many different reasons, and just deciding to declare people as rotten won't help you understand why it happens, or prevent it from happening again.

[@stealthassasin1day291]

@@o.b.7217 Not directly with the case but it does show a lot about her character and where her mental state may have been before the incident when she should of seen the signs to help her son. Phytologically it seemed though they were not allowed to infer that other things were taking priority.

[@kaemincha]

Pretty clear, cut, and dry negligence. Glad they seem to be getting the book.

[@unctrlabyexcite]

I think its interesting that people who who strongly support parental rights over their children's autonomy are among the same people who believe that parents shouldn't be held responsible for negligence.

[@kaemincha]

talk about hypocrites

[@persaunna]

The thing that stands out for me is her statement that she "wouldn't do ANYTHING differently." Really? Nothing? People are dead, and they're looking at you for accountability and answers, and the most you can think of is "nope, nothing" ?!! I know it's not a legal argument for this, but it sure makes it hard to keep personal feelings out of it when these are the attitudes and behaviors of the parents. I think most shootings have an element of "this could've been prevented" and even in this case, where the parents are so wholly unlikeable, I struggle with legal accountability with MANSLAUGHTER charges.

[@archervine8064]

Yup. One now former US president was asked what he would do differently, and couldn’t come up with anything. That shows either a dangerous lack of self awareness or a dangerous inability to take accountability. Same applies here.

[@Sohcahtoa82]

It's kind of a trap question, to be honest. Stating "Yes, I would have done things differently" is essentially an admission of guilt.

[@ohboy1057]

@Sohcahtoa82 Not really, no. Reasonable people make mistakes, refusing to admit to making *any* mistakes makes it obvious you're either lying or absolutely delusional about your parenting abilities. Making a reasonable mistake would not have gotten her charged, which is why she can't admit that she made mistakes, because her mistakes were not reasonable.

[@persaunna]

@Sohcahtoa82 I thought about that, and to an extent, I agree: saying I'd do X, Y, Z differently *does* admit mistakes were made with X, Y, Z. The truth is, mistakes WERE made, and saying "yes. there are a thousand things I've thought of when I think about that day. I don't know if anything would change how it turned out, but how would I not think about it?' That would have been an admission of humanity. Again, I know it's not a legal argument. I'm not making really an argument, rather an observation.

[@dominic.h.3363]

Oh no, bad parenting has legal consequences now. People have to do actual parenting. The horror!

[@Friendlyfirefish]

I know. The bad takes of "this sets a bad precedent" are hilarious. It sets a good precedent.

[@OriginalPiMan]

The problem here is not the precedent. The problem is that this trial blames the parents for the kid's actions, but the kid was tried as an adult, which implies the kid was fully responsible for his own actions. The parents were criminally negligent, but the kid should have been tried as a minor.

[@jean-marcknight8816]

Oh yeah ? every guy turning bad is because if bad parenting ? This is not supported by science !

[@ipodgolfer13]

@@OriginalPiManin Michigan, you can be tried as an adult at 14. According to the Michigan Probate Code, if a juvenile 14 years of age or older is accused of an act that if committed by an adult would be a felony, the juvenile court judge may waive jurisdiction and allow the offender to be tried in the court that would normally have criminal jurisdiction for the offense. Additionally, Michigan’s Juvenile Waiver Law of 1997 lowered the age that a juvenile can be sentenced as an adult for a violent crime, and children as young as 11 have been tried as adults for murder because of this law.

[@Friendlyfirefish]

@@OriginalPiMan that's not why they are tried as adults. Juvenile court is more for misdemeanour type acts where they might not fully understand the seriousness of what they are doing so you dont want them suffering the same proceedings and punishments as an adult. Example being stealing a car and going for a hoon. A 12 year old might not realise the seriousness of what they are did verses someone in their mid 20s. It's all to do with appropriate punishments for the crime, not on if you are responsible for your actions

[@philrod1]

Under the circumstances, I would say finding her not guilty would have set a far more dangerous precedence.

[@seanbarrett9640]

I can't say that I agree. Im troubled that someone can be held accountable for someone else's crime. This is going to be a very slippery slope.

[@paytah1]

​@@seanbarrett9640I agree. They certainly should have been prosecuted for thier crimes of negligence, child endangerment and I'm sure plenty of other items that fit. But charging them for manslaughter doesn't make sense to me. They are terrible people but they did not kill the people thier son did.

[@BubbyBoy]

​@@seanbarrett9640 the precident of holding parents accountable? The circumstances that led to the shootings are so egregious, it's highly unlikely it'll be held against innocent parents.

[@icecoldnut5152]

The jury absolutely got it right on this. As much as I don't like the idea of it being used as a weapon, I disdain the idea of not being able to hold gross negligence accountable.

[@AHersheyHere]

There is a huge gulf in negligence between a disturbed child getting access to a family gun (we can argue that they should better secure guns in a safe) and BUYING A HANDGUN for him.

[@Harlem55]

So then your saying merely executing a constitutional right is negligence?

[@rollinlikebuer9059]

@@Harlem55 Yes. If you buy a gun for a chimpanzee, leave in in their enclosure and it shoots someone do you arrest the chimpanzee?

[@redstormfighter4863]

​@@Harlem55Yes. Constitutional rights still have restrictions. You can't exercise your First Amendment rights by screaming fire in a crowded theater. Felons can't exercise their right to vote or use the Second Amendment, etc.

[@AHersheyHere]

@@Harlem55I am saying that them trying to camoflauge their misconduct with other's practicing their rights is wrong. A child getting access to a family hand gun is still leagues better than BUYING a minor one, especially one who has shown to be unstable. If you want to get a child interested in firearms and their safe use, you get them a junior hunting license.

[@archmage7813]

​​@@Harlem55You have no constitutional right to buy a gun for someone else. And you really have no constitutional right to buy a handgun for a minor. Try reading the Constitution before making an idiot of yourself.

[@thEannoyingE]

She actually said her son was a mistake. WOW that’s brutal.

[@Bacteriophagebs]

Like mother, like son.

[@itsprivate3061]

well, all evidence sesms o point that both she was right, she is included as a failure tough

[@diannebarst6262]

Well, my parent told me, a five year old, if weren't for the law he could me out on the street. And I was not to forget that. Yeah, it had an impact.

[@rodrigojds]

this is why sex eduction is so important in schools. But a certain group of people don't want that

[@janedoe3043]

​@@rodrigojdsnow you can't even throw away your eggs.

[@olknoxlo]

I’ll admit when I first heard about charging parents I thought it was just a scare tactic and ultimately fruitless. I’ll admit I was dead wrong. Buying your troubled son a gun is about the worst parenting decision I have ever heard.

[@jeremypearson9019]

To me, it comes down to the fact that these parents knew that their child needed mental health treatment (the school told them so), but they shrugged it off and let him have a gun. That's the point where it becomes criminal. I don't think that this legal theory will be used to criminalize "bad parenting"--it's for people who knowingly enable potential killers whether they are parents or not.

[@CaptainCat101]

Finally, parents are being held responsible for negligence

[@phatman9762]

They weren't just negligent. They were border line complicit.

[@osmosisjones4912]

We need to look at Divorce system giving to power to one parent and putting the other in definition of slavery. We need to respect men as more just providers .but direct parenting.

[@namantherockstar]

Legal inspires me.. My parents said if i get 70K followers They'd buy me a professional camera for recording..begging u guys , literally Begging..

[@LordSandwich27]

​@@osmosisjones4912The one that bought the son the gun that he then used to shoot the kids?

[@StrikeWarlock]

@@phatman9762 Not Borderline, they WERE complicit. The mom deadass mocked her own son for not knowing how to hide his ill intent. I'm not surprised the jury actually found the mom guilty.

[@jimwaldsmit7983]

About time parents get punished for negligence and just sheer ignorance.

[@Philip02K]

Ignorance? What about society that is broken.

[@mariuspuiu9555]

@@Philip02K what about how they were ignorant idiots who bought their son a gun?

[@namantherockstar]

Legal inspires me.. My parents said if i get 70K followers They'd buy me a professional camera for recording..begging u guys , literally Begging..

[@theodorschmidt2720]

This comment is being shown as "17 hrs ago" and the video as "5 minutes ago". Are you a time traveller?

[@TheMissingDislikeButton]

​@@theodorschmidt2720members got to watch the video early

[@biggybrolunch3809]

Sounds like the parents ignored, among other things, a person experiencing frequent schizophrenic breaks.

[@butch4butch]

Once you hear all the details of the kid’s mental illness and the neglect for YEARS you realize just how guilty these parents are.

[@capnstewy55]

This is not unprecedented. They basically made a straw purchase that resulted in 4 murders. She is getting off very light.

[@maroonmaroonmaroon2985]

Eeeek, buzz light year lights 😬😬😬😬😬😝😝

[@polygaryd]

Technically the father made the straw purchase, while the mother was agreeable to it or at minimum didnt stop it. I'm sure this will come up in the fathers trial since he is assumed to be on the paperwork. Unless the gun was used and laws are like where I live where you dont need paperwork on buying a used gun.

[@kernelpickle]

@@polygaryd to me it sounded like the father was being pestered for the gun for months leading up to the actual purchase, and he discussed the purchase with the wife and she didn't at any point raise any concerns over the quality of that decision making. You'd think a "hyper-vigilant" or "helicopter" parent, like she claimed to be, would have at least mentioned having some reservations about the purchase--but she didn't care, because it wasn't horse or cock related. As far as the paperwork goes, this was a purchase from a gun shop, so new or used would have required some paperwork necessary to purchase it, that you can get from the local PD relatively quickly. At least that's how it was when I last purchased a firearm in MI, but I know they've updated some laws, and have made it easier to get a CPL among other things. That said, since this incident they've passed some secure storage legislation, so people with kids can be charged if they're caught leaving them unsecured.

[@polygaryd]

@@kernelpickle I thought the gun was brand new and would have had to have paperwork but wasnt sure since I havent heard anything about this case in a while. As far as being pestered about something from your child, the adult needs to be an adult and act accordingly. My kids pester me for things all the time. Make em work for some things and others you flat out say no, That's Part of whats missing in these newer generations of kids. Parents handing their kids everything or giving up on parenting because its hard and they want thier kids to stop pestering them. Make em work for it and teach them the way the world should be. Stop these kids from growing up to be entitled little shits and acting like professional victims when they dont get their way. Anyone who gives into a 14 or 15 yo pestering them for a gun is an absolute bafoon. Thats clearly been shown to be the case with these two parents. But I digress. While the wife may be negligent yet again, the straw purchase felony would be on the person on the paperwork and that's the father. I'm sure it will be addressed in the fathers case coming up soon.

[@SorwestChannel]

Oh my god. What an awful person!! Not only did this mom ignore his son's literal "Help me" message in a test. Not only did this mom try to hide from police. Not only did this mom consider the death of a grandparent, the death of a pet and bad school grades to be nothing that required mental health counseling. Not only did this mom buy her mentally unstable child a gun. Not only did this mom talk awful about her kid to friends and strangers. Did this person do anything for her child? Like, what the hell.

[@MA-zg2pz]

You didn’t need to type “not only did…” 4 times. A comma between each description would have been more effective. By the end of all the not onlys, the phrase lost all value.

[@lowlsqwid]

@@MA-zg2pz repetition for emphasis is a valid literary device.

[@travelwell6049]

Not only statements are one clause of a sentence and the second clause of the not only statements was never included. Very odd way to express your idea.

[@travelwell6049]

@@MA-zg2pzagreed

[@FrenkTheJoy]

Like a reddit comment said, "I'll never forgive Ethan Crumbley's parents for making me feel sorry for a mass shooter."

[@schaddalton]

Sociopaths raising a sociopath. The kid never stood a chance...

[@TJtheBee]

HOLY HELL. As somebody who had a neglecting mother, this is absurd. At least my mother *pretended* to give a damn and paid for a sub-par therapist; this atrocious excuse for a parent didn't even try. At first I was hesitant to agree that she should've been convicted, but now I'm just sad she wasn't convicted for general neglect of a child as a whole.

[@Xio189]

They blame the parents when what most likely drives the youth to insanity is social media outlets forcing kids to see only one side of a story. This is a world that teaches CNN as you to hate yourself.

[@lordblazer]

yea it's pretty bad. I've never saw a parent just not give this much of a care towards their own kids.

[@shroomyk]

Yeah I had pretty absent parents but even they at least got me to a doctor and therapy for my depression when it was brought to their attention that I was having S.I.

[@barbararowley6077]

The mother sounds not merely negligent, but doing everything she could to facilitate what happened. Very glad she’s being held to account. As should the father be. Presumably he was also egregiously ignoring his son pleading for help. Hopefully her lack of remorse and refusal to recognise how poor - or virtually non-existent - her parenting was is taken into account in her sentencing. I don’t think the verdict implies that the parents caused the crime to happen, more that they failed to take reasonable action to prevent it. I’m not from the legal community, but do know there’s a significant legal difference. So I don’t see how the protests that it sets a precedent about a parent causing their son’s crime can hold water. They ignored warnings from the school and from their child. They ignored the most basic safety measures with firearms and ammunition. They had so many opportunities to take simple actions to prevent this tragedy, and ignored them. It certainly looks from the outside like they didn’t love their son, but that does not absolve either of them of their duty of care and responsibilities as parents. Adoption is simple in the US (certainly compared to the nightmare it is in Australia), so if they didn’t want the responsibility they had an easy out.

[@MrBrock314]

Yeah, the easiest way to counter the "you were negligent" attack is to actually know about your son's life. Who are his friends, what does he like to do, how does he feel about school, about his future, etc? If you don't know the answers to those questions, start asking.

[@jessicadias5014]

I have a theory as to why they did what they did. In terms of doing everything she could do to facilitate the events, like you said. I don't think they were intending for the mass shooting to happen. But I do think they did what they did with the hope that Ethan would turn the gun on himself knowing he was struggling with mental health issues.

[@colleen6644]

​@@jessicadias5014What fresh hell. I didn't even consider that, and now it's all I can think. How awful!

[@The_Real_Kyrros]

@@colleen6644 Yeah, that reason for the purchase was all I could think after about halfway through this video. I mean, we can't be shocked that someone who didn't actually want to be a parent turns out to be a bad one, there's something to be said for knowing ones' self. (The opposite of course, is also true: There's plenty of instances of unexpected parents turning out great, because they chose to try and be.) As horrible as it sounds, this whole thing has felt like the Casey Anthony case, only instead of an infant, the breaking point happened a decade and a half later. Not that it justifies any of this, but parenting troubled children and teens is overly exhausting in this day and age (well, really, any age, I imagine - but especially in this era of 'two working parents just to get by' when there's actually two parents at all, etc), and that's just for the parents who actually want to be parents. The curve falls off steeply after that. This just seems like a LOT of escapism and just plain denial on her part, probably also a hefty portion of 'throwing in the towel' on the kid, after years of failing to make thing better for him - just letting him act out because it was easier to just let him run uncontrolled, venting all that stress, and what appears to be the teenage equivalent of just 'letting the baby cry' (and ignoring it in the hopes that it will just tire itself out and stop and also somehow learn not to do that anymore), than it was to try and correct or otherwise fight against it.

[@barbidahoinsummer6769]

I taught in public schools almost 25 years. Parents can be crazy. The school requested parents take him home, they refused. How could the school send him back to class without even checking the backpack?

[@robk6551]

She didn't pull the trigger, but she literally put the gun in his hands.

[@madiantin]

The fact that they had nothing positive to say about their son is heartbreaking. But what blows my mind is he is telling them he is suffering and in pain and begging for help and THEY DON'T RESPOND! I can't *imagine* not responding to *any* message from my child never mind one where they are begging for help! I am appalled and my heart breaks for that kid. It hurts for him so much. He just wanted help and he wasn't getting and had a mental break and destroyed so many lives in the process. I'm so glad these parents are going to jail. I hope they are there a heck of a lot longer than their son is.

[@alexanderveritas]

I’m 24 years old and I’ve never shot a gun in my life. Maybe the problem is with parents treating guns like toys. _And yes, I absolutely believe that buying a teenager a _*_gun_*_ as a present is a seriously bad and stupid idea._

[@39zack]

Switch out parentes with Murica and you are 100% right

[@elizabethsohler6516]

@@39zack I would give this comment multiple thumbs up if I could.

[@sporilight]

I don't understand it either. If he's not old enough to buy it for himself, why the HECK were they buying it for him??? They literally put the gun in his hands, and that's besides the fact that they had it in a "locked" safe that has the most basic code in it 😫 I don't even want to get into how easy it is in America for almost anyone to buy a gun... 😭

[@itsprivate3061]

i think buy ANYONE a gun is a stupid idea, if people want a gun they can buy it themselves, when the cops come asking "where did you get that gun" you dont want your name to be anywhere in that conversation

[@erikbjelke4411]

Devil's advocate: I can see buying a "kid" a gun. Going to the shooting range for target practice can be a fun family activity, and teaching them to responsibly handle a firearm from a relatively young age is more effective than them trying to learn it when they're older. If everyone has an interest in firearms, it can be a good bonding experience. THAT SAID, I feel like, until they're eighteen and have proven they have the education and discipline to be a responsible gun owner, that gun is not THEIR gun. It's YOUR gun that you permit them to routinely use under full supervision. No, they don't get to know the code to the gun safe. No, they don't get to take it out when you're not there to show it to their friends. Yeah, they can do all the online research they want. No, "this guy on KZbin said this" is not in itself a compelling argument to change the rules. Yes, if you break any of these rules "your" gun is getting sold back to the gun shop and I won't buy you another one, EVER. And there are other ways to bond with your kids that don't involve deadly weapons. Join them for a DnD game or something.

[@BrightBlueInk]

Teen: There's a ghost in the kitchen, I am not joking, please contact me. Mom: He's got a sarcastic sense of humor, I thought he was kidding. He... Literally said he wasn't??? What??? Like honestly this makes his journal saying "they won't listen to me saying I need help" believable because there's literally evidence of him asking for help and being ignored. Also re: "if my child sexts another teenager, am I guilty of child pornography?" Maybe not. But if your child has access to alcohol in your home and your car, the school calls you into a meeting saying "we're concerned that your teenager has a drinking problem", and then a few hours later your kid gets into a drunk driving accident that kills 4 people... Yeah, I do see how a parent would be held responsible for that. "It was my husband's job to lock up the guns" I'm sorry, is this not your home? Your property? Your child? I can understand the concerns about setting dangerous precidence and all, and I dunno why the mom having an affair matters in this case. And someone having mental health issues doesn't mean they're going to be a mass shooter (I have mental health issues myself, and do worry with the stigma stuff like this causes when it's treated as just a mental health issue when statistically we're more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators). But if I was a juror given a bunch of evidence of a teenager asking for help and being ignored and laughed off, and then the parents gift him a gun, like... It would be hard not to consider them at least somewhat responsible? Like, my parents weren't always perfect, but I can't imagine them completely ignoring me if I was telling them as a teenager that I was frightened and needed them to contact me. They didn't understand my mental health issues as a kid but they also didn't IGNORE me, they tried to educate themselves and then went "well, it doesn't seem like depression?" (It wasn't exactly, I'm bipolar, so I get it.) And they made sure I knew they loved me, when I told them I was suicidal they talked to me and tried to find ways to make me feel better and understand why I was struggling. I just don't understand how I parent could respond to their 15 year old telling them they were distressed and just going "eh, not a problem."

[@MrDeadhead1952]

How any parent can claim no responsibility when they have armed a child is beyond me. And how a lawyer can claim nothing could have been done to prevent the murders when at the very least the parents could not have supplied the weapon and once supplied it they could have insured it was safely stored.

[@rayyaanrahman1568]

Poor kid probably just required psychological help but was denied that by his parents. Now he ended up making a mistake that he could never live up to

[@DannyBoy443]

Poor kid?! wow.

[@mariee.5912]

​@@DannyBoy443 yes. He has serious mental health illnesses. That doesn't condone his behavior, but he as crying for help. He had hallucinations about killing and was gifted a gun abd his father said suck it up.

[@somedragonbastard]

​@@DannyBoy443 yeah because people are still people who can be suffering and also do horrible things and have both those be true at once

[@golbatgirl]

This case is so unique that there were a ton of red flags leading up to the event that could be seen before the purchase of the firearm. I don't think every parent should be charged for their child going on a shooting spree but if the evidence of your actions support the fact that you supported it or just didn't care then you should be charged.

[@technicolorsoultheory3924]

the amount of kids i grew up with that were oopsie babies and had so much less love then they needed makes her negligence totally believable.

[@Clashbash3170]

It's so frustrating that these crimes continue to be committed and only now are the courts finally looking towards the source of the issue instead of what everyone sees on TV.

[@FasterDrivers]

You are weak if you let a tv influence you. You are responsible for yourself, period.

[@Braiam]

I mean, some people aren't ready to be parents. The state can and should do everything possible to make sure kids grow in a nurturing and constructive for their lives environment.

[@jameslawrie3807]

What, your psycho gun laws over there? Why doesn't the rest of the world do this? Because they don't have politicians funded by the gun lobby. They don't even *have* a gun lobby

[@osmosisjones4912]

How about the family court system. 99.8% of all school shooters were raised by single mothers.. and also put on psych meds

[@danvernier198]

That's the dumbest statement ever, the cause is obviously the ridiculously lax handling of weapons. All places have negligent parents, almost no places have school shootings.

[@happymanharp1378]

I am confused. My whole life I was told that a minor is not legally responsible for their actions and that the parents are unequivocally responsible for their minor child's actions. This conviction doesn't set a precedent, it follows it.

[@macandcheese__]

i think that when people say that, it usually means that the parents are civilly liable for the actions of their child. in other words, they should be made to pay damages to the victim. but the liability here is about criminal liability. and criminal liability is personal to the person who actually committed the crime or who induced another to commit the crime because the source of the criminal intent is that person. so it does set a precedent of attributing criminal liability to the parents for the criminal acts of their children. and from my understanding, the parents in this case are not being held criminally liable for being bad parents; but for being negligent in preventing a crime from happening. the signs that a crime is about to be committed was glaring from the circumstances, but they lacked the skill or foresight to see those circumstances and prevent the crime from happening. their roles as parents come into play because theyre the ones with the authority and influence over their child (practically and legally speaking). this explanation is quite long and may or may not be entirely correct, but i hope this helped. :)

[@macandcheese__]

also, if i may add: when the law says "minors are not legally responsible," it's that because of their age, they are incapable of determining what is right or wrong. and because of that inability, it cannot be logically said that they intended to commit the crime or to do something wrong. and criminal intent is essential in criminal liability. so it's not because their parents are the ones shouldering their responsibility. also im not sure about US laws, but in my country, at a certain age (but still below 18) and depending on the circumstances, a judge may rule that despite being a minor, he/she is capable of determining what is right or wrong and committed the crime knowing it was wrong, and may be held legally responsible.

[@TheManinBlack9054]

In what country? That's insane. Idk what culture you're from. But thats NOT how it works

[@arturoaguilar6002]

Except for crimes. Minors are still legally responsible for their own crimes (even if the legal consequences may be lesser than in adults). Besides, this minor was charged as an adult; so there is that.

[@CodyEthanJordan]

​@@TheManinBlack9054 Not how what works?

[@caseh4235]

12:19 “‘There was no way to predict this’ says only country where this happens regularly”

[@pkmntrainerlilly5]

"You have to learn not to get caught." That is very telling. She deserves the charges imo.

[@TheClaw47]

Did I hear that correctly? The defense attorney successfully kept the affair out of the case. Then messed up questioning a witness, allowing the affair to be brought into the case, and then afterwards is moaning about how it never should have been allowed?

[@cheeksakimbo6591]

My family was very pro gun when I was a kid Dad bought a bb gun to teach us gun safety, only used it with him around as he would lock it up with the other guns in the safe. That was back in the 90s so it's not like people didn't know shit could happen.

[@joendeo1890]

Similar case here. Except it was a .22 rifle which I always had to be supervised using, and was shot into the side of a hill with little targets. I was taught basic gun safety, which is to treat the gun at all times as if it's primed and ready to go, and to not aim it anywhere except down the makeshift range my family had. This range was at my grandparent's house and grandpa had a big heavy gunsafe for all the family's guns. Many of which he made himself because he was a gunsmith.

[@HarsherVibes]

I got my first gun at 3 years old. The only time my grandpa ever yelled at me was negligence or mistakes with it. He kept it hidden from me and to this day I have no idea where he keeps his guns. I was taught to respect firearms because of how dangerous they can be. I hate how American culture has glorified firearms; it has the unintended consequence of desensitizing us to the danger of firearm misuse. These parents failed their son and his classmates. They deserve to do time.

[@GreenShark4]

This is a big reason why I loathe the gun fetishism this country has. They're not toys or status symbols, they're weapons. They are made to destroy things, to end life. When we lose sight of the respect you need to pay to such power and casualize their usage, we casualize their misuse as well. I was playing ref at a tiny shooting competition at a party where we were taking turns hitting beer cans with a .22 and people got annoyed with me constantly checking for clear sight lines, making sure everyone around us was aware of when shooting stops and starts, yelling at people who tried to quickly run across the range to get to the other side of it. Like call me a buzzkill or w/e but these are weapons! Take them seriously!

[@camarofan2008]

Think a lot of parents back in the 80s and 90s must have had a class about gun safety because my parents did the same thing. Remember growing up going to school assemblies to discuss kids' accidentally harming themselves with unsecured guns.

[@doomsdayrabbit4398]

​@@joendeo1890Sounds like a well-regulated militia to me. And yeah, I know, paperwork and all that is a pain in the ass, and no one wants to be told what they can and can't do, but it's gotten to a point where in order to make sure that people who are dangers to themselves and others cannot obtain a firearm, personal responsibility must be proven to society at large. Maybe what would be best would be an MPAA/ESRB scenario. After all, if it's just private businesses coming together as an industry to say "we're going to stop this" because the Supreme Court incorrectly decided the government can't, it is what it is.

[@NA-wf2bq]

I hope this sets a precedent for parental responsibility. Maybe not all school shootings are negligence (gross or not) on the parents’ part, but I think every time a school shooting happens it should be taken into account. We need to focus on mental health and gun dangers on every level, that includes parental. I asked for therapy for years as a kid and only started getting help when I was 14. I have long lasting trauma caused by my parents that I am still working through. We need to make mental health care and parent classes more available. We need to teach mental health and parenting (/child psych) in schools- as a core class not as an optional one. We need more regulations on home schooling, because I was so isolated as a kid that it hurt. There are so many problems on every single level that are damning our kids.

[@eno88]

Can someone explain in what twisted universe a parent buys their minor child a gun?

[@WolfieDawn]

She was hoping he would unalive himself. If others had to go too she didn't see a problem as long as he unalived himself too. His parents paid out of pocket for their lawyers but their child had to get a public defender. They never wanted him and still don't.

[@margodphd]

Yep. I know what he did but ... I'm sorry for him. If he got help, if he had someone who CARED - it wouldn't have ended this way.

[@hailhydra7959]

Welcome to the USA.