Electrics, Hybrids, CNG, Petrol... What's Going On! | ThisConnect S02E14

[@motorinc]

*Chapters* 00:00 An Independence thing 02:17 Does Ethanol make sense 06:31 Biomass based 'CNG' 09:30 Electric vehicles 16:30 Better laws needed 19:12 Transitions hurt 24:40 Global warming 25:35 Hybrids Part I 26:18 Old vs new solutions 28:08 Battery recycling 28:48 Age of innovation 33:37 Innovation infrastructure 35:05 Continuity of governance 40:09 Carbon credits 41:04 Eggs and baskets 45:00 Do stuff, make a move 46:30 Electrics are better 49:36 Disruption's coming 50:00 More CNG two-wheelers 53:11 Nuclear diamond batteries 54:21 Diesel's done 55:41 Closing comments *Explore MotorInc memberships* at youtube.com/@motorinc/join

[@FranticKnightX9]

Don’t let Shumi near Infinity Gauntlet. He will snap without a thought 😂

[@motorinc]

😆

[@kshitijpandey6514]

​i have the same thoughts as him and I agree to him more or less

[@madotra27]

He might snap twice.

[@amit.deshmukh]

haha

[@shresthsonkar9207]

@@madotra27 it cuts world population in half, so even snapping once leaves 4billion but snapping twice still leaves 2billion

[@abiofficial-ws7pn]

How we'll drive tomorrow. In the same crappy manner, without manners

[@motorinc]

Nice tangent! 😁

[@MuditBadlani]

Extremely mature conversation backed by a very solid knowledge base. One expects nothing less from you guys, but I still felt the need to say it. This is a conversation "petrolheads" (or personal mobility enthusiasts more generally) around the world could/should listen to. Since so much of this is about "prediction". And how well you guys understand and explain the idea that to understand the future best, you must look to the past, I'd like to add 2 things: 1. Taleb's "Black Swan" is another you can add to the reading list (don't know if it's eventually recommended, typing this at 49 minutes in) 2. Throughout, I am reminded of one of my favourite quotes: "History seldom repeats itself, but it does rhyme".

[@motorinc]

Thank you for the suggestions @MuditBadlani. And for joining us today!😊

[@agamsingh4209]

Perfect an episode after the Bajaj CNG first. So much insight and even more food for thought. This is also like a tangential episode to the season 1 EV episode. I love this.

[@motorinc]

Thank you for joining us @agamsingh4209!

[@HarikrishnandIceman]

When automotive journalists discuss policy better than the government. 😮

[@motorinc]

🙏🏾

[@imahadevan98]

Great episode! Now, this has become a Saturday routine. Grabbing a coffee, relaxing on the couch, and watching Motorinc ThisConnect.

[@motorinc]

We may be biased but that sounds wonderful @imahadevan98!😅

[@vic110291]

Just noticed the cool Motorinc wallpaper on Shumi’s watch!😮

[@pushparaj3908]

I am working for MNC for ethanol production we have capacity of 300 KLPD and we are using both sugar-based as well and corn but as the sugarcane-based feedstocks sugar syrup is banned for ethanol production so right now we use heavy and c molasses for 155 days and grain-based feedstocks such as corn (mainly) and broken rice again rice is banned by FCI so right now only corn is the option for ethanol production which we run for 175 days as we guys rightly discussed just wanted to for the discussion sugarcane is a seasonal crop and depending upon sugar factory capacity and distillery capacity we can utilize sugar based FS for max 150 days rest of the year grain based feedstocks are the only option. And as for the water consumption perspective if farmers move towards mirco-irrigation we can save upto 40% of water

[@trilokyamohanchakra6351]

Good god never have I ever imagined KLPD used in this context

[@pushparaj3908]

@@trilokyamohanchakra6351 kilo liters per day

[@shresthsonkar9207]

@@trilokyamohanchakra6351 lmao

[@motorinc]

Thank you for sharing @pushparaj3908.

[@avinashtv6993]

Thanks

[@motorinc]

Thanks Avinash!

[@shashankrawat4437]

Government of India need to add you two in decision making committee. You are more thoughtful about average Indian than our Government.

[@Anant.Bhatia.Antz_Bin]

54:30 My "Fuel of the past" car (Figo Diesel) is roughly the same age and size of Karthik's Ignis. It cost me the same as a WagonR in 2019 but it is faster than most sub 20 lakh cars, does less CO2/km than most modern Petrol cars. Went to Ladakh and came back without a hitch. And it still cranks in 1 go because it is rated for B7 (7% Biodiesel) a number which has still not been hit. I think I did pretty well when I chose 😊

[@motorinc]

Lucky you! And hugs to your ride too!

[@Yavvee]

Very stimulating conversation! Usually when I see an hour long podcast, I assume it's going to have a lot of fluff. But when it comes to Shumi, the depth of his knowledge and crispness of his points makes it so watchable. I work in decarbonization and energy transition and wouldn't disagree with more than 95% of what he has said

[@motorinc]

Thank you for joining us @YashvardhanVerma.

[@mohs1nsha1kh]

My 1st Members Only Video Ever - Yeah - Looking forward to more

[@motorinc]

Wonderful to have you @mohs1nsha1kh! What did you think of the episode?

[@mohs1nsha1kh]

@@motorinc The topic was interesting and i found it insightful

[@gauravsharma1636]

@@kishanskp it was. Early access

[@chandan4156]

Electric Vehicles are definitely coming no matter how much hybrids, hydrogens are promoted. EVs are just one battery breakthrough away from total domination. Samsung's 1000km SS with 9min charge battery is just the beginning

[@motorinc]

Electrification is the way. That is clear. Which solution will works for whom? That is not clear.

[@swapnilbarhate6229]

That's a one BIG breakthrough. Problem is the world doesn't have any Einsteins.

[@Terahydron]

hydrogen will blow electrical out of the park ,if we keep following rules of physics as they exist now

[@CustomMarine]

We need a video on Shumi's book collection!

[@motorinc]

Noted!

[@thebaconbaba]

A funny thing about bus converting to electric… they did this few years back in pune and it was all goody goody. However, the bus charging stations were powered by diesel generators! Irony jumped in front of that pmpl bus 🙈

[@motorinc]

😆

[@richardtharakan]

i've read someone say in shorts' comment "this is why i pay my internet bills", so true

[@animeshchoubey1331]

Hi MotorInc i love your content the way the two of you have a very casual conversation while being very informative , the slight conflicting mentality of both creates more eagerness to listen , kudos to all of you i have a request please do a segment or a video on wheather to buy new sports bike or a old one and how much would be difference in the riding experience between the two and the maintaining cost ✌✌

[@motorinc]

Hi @animeshchoubey1331! Thank you for joining this one. Regarding your request, we've touched upon this in Season 01. Check it out here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/amOvZHhpbLiMhK8si=p4PudlUmihIGeaHU

[@animeshchoubey1331]

Oh thanks

[@babbalgts]

I love this channel. As someone who is building a "Potential Disruption" in the EV space, I constantly have to battel with VCs, fellow entrepreneurs and a lot of riders, that one fuel, one silver bullet doesn't exist, and the future will be a co-existence of a lot of technologies and people will decide what "They need". Talking just about the two-wheeler, it's a 300B USD market in India which is going through energy transition. It's really fun and interesting to see likeminded people talk about this transition. We don't know what's the future holds, I may be in the 99 that fails, but that is the PROCESS. meanwhile all we need to do is "Chill" :)

[@motorinc]

All the best B!

[@leakedzebra]

I love this conversation. Really cherish the digressions. Every once in a while you guys should need to do podcast episodes where the boys(and maybe also the rest of the crew) just sit down and chat.

[@motorinc]

Haha sounds relaxed for sure @leakedzebra! Thanks for the suggestion.

[@7567_Rex]

6:58 > you look at hydrogen for instance hydren the entire argument is is hydrogen efficient it depends on whether you've used green energy to First make hydrogen efficiency is a misnomer here, rather it should be emissions per unit fuel, efficiency of H2 remains same whether you use coal power for doing electrolyis or you use solar/wind Water will need 50kWh electricity for electrolysis to make 1kg hydrogen irrespective of the power source. What you maybe referring to is different colours of H2 not made by electrolysis rather by methane reformation (grey) in which case it is by product of existing refinery processes, which is why most petroleum companies seem more interested in h2 as it allows them to use existing refineries to push a “green” fuel made from methane reformation (CO2 intensive process) 9:46 > because and we've always said this EVS will make sense when you are using it all the time when you max out the usage of EVS is when you get the max return on investment because you're spending so much on the batteries in the first place In most states, the OTR price of EV and ICE model of same car model and trim has very little difference now ( it make sense for trucks where as it is they're carrying very heavy loads for that size it won't make as much sense for trucks it maybe better to opt for H2 as trucks also have fixed locations like truck stops and rail depots, harbours etc which can setup h2 stations (even better if the trains and ships already use H2 so the trucks can use the same pump) without need for every petrol pump to offer H2. Further in cars and bikes there is just not enough space to store h2 for meaningful range. Mirai compromises heavily on the boot and legroom, just to match the 400mi EPA range of the Model S which I feel toyota engineering took personally “WE WILL NOT LOSE TO TESLA” and threw practicality out of the window with mirai just to match the range estimate. For the smaller cars sold in india, it makes even less sense to go H2 for cars. 12:56 > Fame yeah which was for electrification yeah for Electric Mobility why should that not be there for the other forms of new engine types that are going to be needed for vehicles which will need new types of fuel to run 100% it should 100% be there whether it's CG whether it's Flex Fuel because all of those are driving costs up yeah all of those will Drive costs up especially when we talk about flex fuel vehicles which just will be a lot more complex and there will be a penalty for the user as well I I think it is slightly in the name itself : FAME Faster Adoption and Manufacturing of Electric (Vehicles) So it is to be expected that the scheme was aimed at electric transition itself from day 1 of its inception. In fact under FAME 1 hybrids used to get subsidy just like EVs but Maruti squandered that subsidy quota by selling nano femto hybrid (SHVS) theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/India-hybrid-and-EV-incentives_working-paper_ICCT_27122016.pdf Page 2 btw (A shame that govt document is so badly written and uploaded on some obscure site that I have to post the pdf of the document from ICCT who have better access, formatting and readability) If anyone, then not govt, Maruti is to blame for wasting the quota on their fake hybrid instead of actual hybrids being sold now. The current scenario is even footing for both EVs and Hybrids. EV subsidy quota also expired in March 2023 for ITR rebate of 1.5L and states like delhi ncr also exhausted the quota within 1 year of the subsidy going online (2020-2021) It is expected that FAME 3 will purely focus on charging infra and commercial vehicles only which is a good move, at this point charging infra and awareness about the same would be better nudge for adoption than lower costs (something which has already been reduced to quite an extent through recent EV price cuts) 20:43 > is one thing like see I love EVS from the standpoint of Driving Experience that's it's fun it's great it's and we've I will continue to say that today they're are lifestyle Choice they're not an environment choice because if you just do a basic Google search about the kind of mining that's happening I would not say a “google” search alone is enough, I would not treat anything below peer reviewed journals or reports as reliable due to the lobbying efforts of oil companies. They already did it once in 90s for the GM EV1, ie massive disinformation campaigns to save the service industry and profits of oil industry. I would recommend ICCT resources, the same which uncovered dieselgate. Links in separate comment for visibility. > to get um lithium and Cobalt and all for these batteries it's scary it's freaky I mean yeah yeah and and I think also you have to remember that petrol as devastating as you think it is diesel as devastating as you think it is is a very Advanced system of extraction today which is far less wasteful than where it began Not to say that lithium mining is all rainbow and unicorns, but here we are comparing a process done ONCE for EV (battery production) to a RECURRING process of oil extraction, refining and transport. In fact even today, using by above example only of googling, you can openly find emissions impact of EV battery mining in terms of a particular X number in kgCO2 per kWh battery. However, try the same for oil and you would get convoluted answers as to how it is too complicated and how it is a trade secret (actually happened to me when looking up cobalt usage in desulphurisation of crude oil) It is apparent who is not afraid to show the data and who is hiding it, not even for the first time. Even today it comes to light how the methane flaring from oil rigs and refineries is not fully burning the methane and letting 70% more of it into the atmosphere than initially reported by oil companies. Via IEA in separate comment.

[@satikantabanerjee7844]

EVs are so quiet that they are actually alarming when they pass by you closely.

[@your_arno]

Exactly 😢 that's the problem I've faced so far!! So what can be potential solutions!!!

[@therealanbhv]

I've been sick for the past few days. And naturally that means I'm binging motorinc at home.

[@motorinc]

Glad to keep you company @therealanbhv! What did you think of this episode?

[@Sarthaksharma18]

Thanks for the shout-out to Indore! It’s always awesome to see my hometown mentioned. Really enjoyed the video and appreciate the great content-keep up the amazing work!

[@motorinc]

Heya SS! Lovely city too!

[@anuvabsaha5317]

This topic did come up before in another video, couple years back.....however, watching this updated video shed so much light on the reality of Automotive Journalism. Such a clear picture! Thanks so much both of you. P.S: Really loved the journey both of you have been on. 🎉

[@manjeetkolte8601]

21:00 Kartik please also discuss the emisisons needed to produce, refine and transport petrol/diesel to the consumers. Also I'd like to point out that EV batteries are completely recyclable and have second life uses in stationary storage after being used in vehicles. Petrol/diesel cant be recyclable and has terrible efficiency compared to any battery operated vehicles. As the problem of global warming becomes more and more serious in our lifetimes the faster we switch to battery operated transportation is the better. It reduces the pollution from our cities and is cost effective as well.

[@exhausted-tears]

You understood the facts in reverse direction 😂

[@motorinc]

Hi Manjeet please look up mining for EVs. Electrification is the way ahead. But, not like this. Thanks!

[@exhausted-tears]

@@motorinc Hydel Power, Wind Mills, Solar Energy etc but definitely not the Energy obtained either from burning Coal or burning Uranium 🙏

[@dhara1002]

Also, I'm still so pissed about nuclear. We have such a good alternative energy source that is relatively clean, scalable and usable. Only issue that comes out is waste (which also might get fixed, saw some research on reusing nuclear waste to get back Uranium from it). Safety has largely been solved. But the hurdle that stops it is public perception. There was a ship called the NS Savannah which was nuclear and was so much better than traditional ships. And there are some icebreaker ships running in the Arctic by the Russians. What killed them was public perception. I'm imagining a perfect solution with nuclear once that gets the oppurtunity to mature.

[@ViShNu5963]

😊 Thank you so much we will chill no panicking ❤ This connect ❤

[@motorinc]

👍🏽

[@makeitnik]

54:25 can’t get enough of Shumi’s humour

[@lipidsled]

Such a great, sane & holistic conversation! Send it to em govt reps somehow...

[@motorinc]

Thanks for joining in!

[@rishabhpandey3398]

Some perspective on Ethanol: Ethanol is not a green fuel of choice but rather a strategic bet to counter import of hydrocarbons and secondly (and less talked about) to solve for the surplus sugar production in the country (which is the case for almost every staple foodgrain production). Ethanol takes the load out of the government to procure and maintain fair market prices for farmers by creating a synthetic demand and a fair remuneration model for farmers (governemnt regulated price for procurement of sugar and ethanol) by way of routing surplus to OMCs and sugar producing companies and in turn routing liquidity back to the agricultural sector. So in a way you are routing foreign reserves spent on crude oil to a local sector in distress. Also ethanol production goes beyond just using sugarcane as source (1g ethanol) but also venturing into using agri waste and residue as a source (2g ethanol). Incremental production gains are and will be met by 2g ethanol (which in a way also solves for stubble burning..). Also ethanol needs to be seen beyond just E20 fuel and in innovations like Compressed Bio Gas and Sustainable Aviation Fuel. Imo ethanol can't really be put under the green fuel (E20) basket because any net emissions gains (if any) will be offset by its affect on engine performace and milege (although there are some research materials on how a higher blending factor increases the thermal efficiency of the engine). Also the entire discusion on the choice of fuels becomes a lot more crucial when viewed against the CAFE norms in the industry. Having said that not really sure how stringent will be its enforcement.

[@motorinc]

Hey RP, thanks for taking time to share your perspective. Are you interested in this space too?

[@johnkodamala6149]

21:50 another aspect I want to point out is that people disregarded human life in general for greater technological and scientific progress. We had 9 year Olds employed as factory chimney cleaners back then, we added lead in petrol before we discovered it was a bad thing. The engineering around petrol and diesel were made reliable upon the backs of these sacrifices we made as species. With the progress we've made on human rights I think it will be a far greater challenge to transition in the span it took us to adopt our conventional sources of energy without throwing people under the bus in the name of progress

[@motorinc]

We have learned a thing or two from the last transition and it would be less prudent of us to avoid as many mistakes as we possibly can @johnkodamala6149. But yes, transition of any kind, isn't gonna come easy.

[@stevencharles8421]

Awesome Podcast 🙌. One thing I’ll like to add about Carbon Credits is that the companies purchase those carbon credits earned by other company to reduce the emissions. So the company A who purchased the credits from company B for the good work of company B will be transferred in the name of Company A

[@Mr.the.spectator]

Some major misses: 1. Euro 6 petrol already is 95 octane. Indian cars to suit indian fuel run on drastically reduced compression ratios. To expect similar co2 emissions is a travesty! And is only hurting indian consumers for now. 2. Oil extraction, till a few years ago was the largest cobalt consumer. offshore oil (or all crude) is extracted from an average of 9500 feet below, and if lithium mining I scaring Karthik, I believe he should read up on oil spills. Al least the exon Valdez and BP Deepwater! I really believe the electrics are being demonized far too much while crude and ethanol are getting a free pass. Refining again, worries Australians, they are getting rid of it, while being the Frontline lithium producers. Must know , all of your oil is boiled to 900 degrees to refine, and only a portion of it used, while we have to sadhaaao the mineral oil and pet coke left behind. They are the actual polluters. 3. Diesel, well. Your car used fuels in grams, even at same price diesel would still be 17% cheaper. And then it is always far more efficient 4. Ethanol I can't even begin to explain how horrible that is. Biofuels are beyond stupid. India is the largest edible oil importer and to save up on crude bill we are going in for ethanol. 24 lakh tonnes of RICE so far has been turned to ethanol. It takes5000 liters of water to get kilo of rice. A fraction of it after processing and distilling/boiling etc is turned to ethanol. While that water was extracted using lignite, not coal, but lignite power. I can't even handle this, whatever this is.

[@motorinc]

Breaaaatheee!! 😁

[@pratyasaha9876]

Miss those days of the small DDiS engines and the 1.6 Hyundai CRDi with Ford's TDCI. Man weren't they the best for India. 😢

[@motorinc]

Those had issues with emissions. Which is why they went away.

[@sandiipmohanty9819]

Long wait for a podcast on this topic, thanks… it filled in most of the blanks. There’s lot of noises in the internet to bias or grow fear upon one’s choice based on fuel options, those are quite polluting nowadays. Glad that this podcast detoxed it. My favorites are biomass based CNG, transition hurts, age of innovation, innovation infrastructure and eggs and baskets; as it conforms that good things are happening. Yap… with Bugatti’s examples… I was recently following velomobile stuff. Hope to see a podcast on such weird or “utpatang” type mobility 😉

[@TheVanillaMotorcyclist]

For environmental protection, the govt should bring stringent laws for vehicle longevity and right to repair. Spare parts should be available in the open market from all manufacturers( I am looking at you Honda). Also this flex fuel is basically adulterated petrol so if anything, petrol prices should reduce significantly, it should not be sold at the same price as pure petrol. There should be option to retrofit engines to be compatible with e20 or e30 or whatever. Vehicles should comply with emission norms, not age. If age is the deciding factor then we should start by throwing out the old farts out from the parliament. Nuclear diamond EVs are just bad idea because many people don't/can't maintain the petrol vehicles properly. Then you will have to evacuate an entire block one morning because someone failed to maintain their vehicle properly and threw around radioactive elements everywhere. Most of the users are not responsible enough to maintain miniature nuclear reactor in our cars. Also about comparing the horsepowers between EV and ICE, I recently learned a horse makes around 15 horsepowers, don't know how to feel about that. Great podcast as always guys.

[@motorinc]

Hullo TVM! Thanks for sharing your take! The bit about age is funny! 😆

[@shresthsonkar9207]

> Vehicles should comply with emission norms, not age. The countries like USA charge almost 100-200$ for certifying vehicles every year, we have pucc but those ppl dont even insert the device and give report, how many cars you really think are polluting as rated? Will people pay so much for annual fitness checks? leave that, arai mileage is known to be overestimated however the main issue is that mileage itself is calculated as by product of emissions which means even the ARAI tested emissions are underreported to begin with when the car is sold itself > If age is the deciding factor then we should start by throwing out the old farts out from the parliament. absolutely, the fact that 70-80yo boomers are deciding policy for next decade when they aren't even sure of completing their 5y term alive

[@TheVanillaMotorcyclist]

People who have cars are already paying through their noses for road tax, toll tax, petrol tax. So don't underestimate then for paying for a stringent pollution test. However the bit you said about testers not putting sensors in exhaust i.e. basically cheating the system is right but cheating also happens when issuing licenses too.

[@sreejat]

MotorInc Morning 🌆

[@motorinc]

Morning @sreejat!

[@DayumSonny]

This conversation needs to happen with a representative of both automotive manufacturers and the Ministry of Road Transport.

[@motorinc]

👍🏽

[@kripal_kulur]

Schumi's worst nightmare is when he has to wake up and review a KTM CNG! 😋🤭. But, in all seriousness, a very engaging, informative discussion. A lot of food for thought. Karthikeya makes such a valid point when he mentions about his Ignis taking two cranks to start up. There are so many millions of vehicles across India, of all ages, that will slowly begin to show issues and it is going to be expensive and time-consuming to retrofit older vehicles to be compatible. A small crisis bubbling or nothing to worry about?

[@akshaypandey5576]

As of now, maize is biggest source of ethanol production in India not sugarcane due to FRP getting very high for sugarcane.

[@motorinc]

Thanks again AP!

[@JustChill1267]

You guys deserve more subscribers 🤩🤩

[@motorinc]

Thank you @swayam1267!

[@anuvabsaha5317]

Riding the Ather 450 really changed my mindset on EV scooters. The torque felt effortless regardless of pillion. The modes do work. The Warp mode really pulls sharp and fast. Looking forward to more such exciting EVs. Thinking about multiple fuel choices apart from Petrol, Diesel also sounds exciting🎉 Great discussion as usual. Shumi being brutally confident and dark really got me to pause whatever I was doing and listen again.😂

[@pskiranps]

Packed with a lot of thought provoking aspects which are being overlooked right now in terms of alternative fuels. I loved the conversation for they way things were discussed in a macro perspective even though Shumi went 'dark' a few times and I am with him on that.

[@motorinc]

Thank you for watching @pskiranps.

[@Don_Mitchell]

Spot on about following the money! How ‘green’ electric cars are is a growing debate now….the cost one pays in terms of mining minerals for batteries to damage in disposing old ones. Seen intercity electric buses being charged using diesel gensets….I think it’s largely about economics and optics.

[@motorinc]

So true DM.

[@shresthsonkar9207]

the valuable distinction here is that battery production is one time emission, and disposal is not happening in first place because the batteries are outlasting the mfg expectations. For oil extraction and refining, it is lifetime emissions for that car. Every drop has to extracted, refined and transported, for it to finally reach the pump, just like battery, the fuel in the tank has already polluted before being filled and burnt.

[@7567_Rex]

25:28 > upon one four more uh the one thing that you brought up and we did not talk about at all is hybrids yeah and to me that combination of so to speak old school and future is so good as a transition and the problem that we have today in the transition is we're not getting our minimums which is why hybrids work hybrids give you the benefits of the new tech because you can drive all electric for a distance and feel the new tech as it were but it has none of the downsides Lets not be dishonest here, the EV range of most hybrids in india is barely 3-4km due to how small the batteries are. There is of course the downside of low boot space (not as low as CNG but still) 36:33 > the why is it why is it that they're dragging their feet on that I know that I've heard that it's because of Taxation not being supportive it'll be a lot more expensive but but in Europe no to India like what I'm saying is that in Europe in India I think it's a blind spot look somebody very high up said look what is the problem the problem is crude importing crude costs a lot of money so all derivatives of crude have to be put down There is hue and cry about tax reductions for hybrid but hiding in plain sight is the sub4m rule - 28% tax for hybrids under 4m and engines under 1.2P/1.5D - idk why the companies deliberately ignore this when they make use of it just fine for ICE cars, instead of chasing dead ends of tax reductions on the 43% slab on >4m sized hybrids. Clearly a case of thicker margins on halo products like innova than say brezza or baleno strong hybrid. Currently, one would need to drive 2000-2500km to break even on hybrid GV vs its ICE model, that is a niche, not a majority, even EV can make fincancial sense for more people than hybrid. Idk why the topic of breakeven only comes for EV not hybrid when both command the same premiums, if not lesser for EV models. 28:11 > an unknown yes because it is the same problem as too many people trying to do the same thing I think it's also because it's evolutionary the tech that is going into making these batteries every year we're talking about a new chemistry we're talking about new cell sizes we're talking about new technologies to process them and none of them have been commercialized yet when enough people start doing of this there'll be a glut at the recycling end Battery recycling is already existing and upto 95% recovery rate (JerryRigEverything YT), the issue is finding enough end of life batteries to get economy of scale 28:35 > exactly where there'll be stacks of batter nobody know what to do with them and the problem will be compounded by the fact that evolutionary technology means stuff in the battery changes all the time how quickly can these processes adapt to extract those things back It is in fact opposite, the longevity of batteries in EVs on the road is beating mfg expectations so there is in fact not enough batteries to recycle in the first place. (DW Planet A YT) EV batteries also have second life uses like grid storage which cannot be said for hybrid batteries (owning to small size and low voltage) 36:02 > hybrids that's also not come to that's an American thing more than European thing what hybrids but in America that conversation exists, they forgot the hybrid in the middle andara got piss out in the middle as I said for something else they're just not aware of the benefit whereas if this was a result oriented exercise we said we need to slowly and steadily reduce our dependence on crude what are all the available At the current prices, it feels more like “we need to get our big hulking SUVs to comply the next emissions norms” rather than efficiency. The cost of a hybrid GV can buy a brezza + tiago EV and still leave money left. There’s a resource website e Amrit, e-amrit.niti.gov.in/crude-oil-savings-calculator ACC to this, an EV driven 10K km per year saves 684L of crude per year and 5500L over 8y span That’s 35 barrels of oil import worth 90$ each, or a total saving of $3000 (~₹2.7L) Even the max subsidy offered for ev’s was ₹1.5L so it’s well below the savings offered by govt The benchmark of this crude saving is 16kmpl vehicle on website which means a vehicle getting 32kmpl will still need 342L of fuel per year, and the saving only being 17.5 barrels or ₹1.4L over 8y period. Still lesser than maximum EV subsidy of ₹1.5L. For 24kmpl, the same saving is just 228L per year or 10 barrels over 8y coming to just 75K worth of fuel saving. The majority of hybrids fall somewhere between 24 and 32 so it’s simply not feasible to give 1.5L subsidy to hybrid. Going by EV logic, the subsidy would only be 60% of saving or just ₹50K - that much amount stealerships will loot from owner in name of accessories and insurance alone. How much is a ₹50K reduction in terms of tax %? 10% at most. There is 5L tax on hyryder hybrid base model. 48:29 > going to be in 30 years from now people will be paying millions of dollars to buy the latest petrol car yeah I give you a guarantee because then when EVS are common place what people will pay through their noses for is the experience of driving something pure which will be petrol Maybe not millions but surely similar to what one may pay to do horse riding in today’s time. Circuits or Restricted roads only, come, rent for few hours, drive and go. Owning will definitely for the multimillionaires only.

[@RajaSekar-dw1kb]

ESG stands for Environmental, Social and Governance. It’s way of reviewing a way of how business’s products and services to sustainable development

[@motorinc]

Thanks @RajaSekar-dw1kb.

[@makeitnik]

Remember the Honda Activa CNG? They incorporated the tanks under the handlebars

[@surjethumapathy]

Change is the only thing that’s constant!! Like how Fuel injectors was made mandatory it’s just the time factor now to know what’s next!! But for sure as a personal matter I think I will miss the ICE when this happens!!

[@motorinc]

Yep! What is next…

[@chinmaykulkarni591]

i reallly dont know well this solution is like i am no economist nor am i highly educated person I am just a student who is just finishing his graduation this March but the thing we miss the most in EVs is the quick just fill and go option as available in petrol and diesel vehicles But what one can do is make more and more removable batteries and there are already EVs(Raft was one probably a chinese brand i guess) who have removable batteries just like what we did with petrol to make it available to everyone we extracted it a lot and then transported it to various places creating hubs and accessible to everyone everywhere by having these removable batteries what we can do is setup multiple ports and stations where one can just come give his existing battery to charge and have the charged battery installed again and go just the Quick Easy Fill and Go option but with EVs i know the idea seems immature and idk how viable it will be to the country but just like TYPE C charging port which is a uniform thing in almost all new gen mobiles what we are able to do is charge any phone with any charger as all are type C this same uniformication can be done by the govt for all the battery types for EVs to be made in same type same design which can fit any E-vehicle yes we can design vehicles depending on performance and size of battery it needs but thats just the further extension just think it like this M size batteries for all 125cc to 200cc vehicles L sized for above 200cc and so on I dont think storage is that much big of a problem , we already figured a way to store petrol which is liquid also dont we replace batteries on a regular basis in our Ac and Tv remotes etc it will work kinda like that and then also I agree using a full petrol bike in future will be a luxury kinda thing just like Horse Riding has become now I am Open to all opinions Lets Discuss what others think

[@motorinc]

Hey CK! Absolutely happy to have you spark this discussion. Swappable batteries are coming to India too. Should help improve usability and battery utilisation.

[@gaurangnaik850]

OEMs like tata hyundai have actually opposed favorable laws for Hybrid cars for the long time. This leads to siam opposing lower taxes and subsidies for hybrid.

[@dhara1002]

Hey guys! Slightly off topic, but I had a couple of questions some weeks back on visibility in the Baleno and how to better judge the corners. And you guys gave some superb advice. I took them, implemented it and also drove more following that advice and now am much more confident compared to just 5 to 6 weeks back. I'd like to thank y'all for that brilliant advice. Also, I want to ask, how to improve further? I want to learn to rev match shift and heel-toe downshift, that's one of the main things I wanted to learn and that's mainly why I chose manual. Can you tell me how do I do that? How do I do that in the Baleno? I do it on my motorcycle and am familiar with the concept, but haven't been able to do it well on the car. Any tips you guys can share on this?

[@VR_1331]

@45:42 ...karthikeya at his absolute best 😂😂😂😂😂

[@SurajV320]

That thing on top of those trucks in Europe (and what you see on electric locomotives) is called a pantograph.

[@raviv5109]

Such a intelligent discussion, thx!

[@motorinc]

Thanks RV!

[@Yuvi_3939]

You and I have same mindset towards EVs nd other stuff .. But I was not clear to justify my answer. But your video 💯 😂 I'm going to tag this video to Mr. *Nitin* *Gadkari*

[@satweeksaswat9732]

I give a like even before going through the entire content! At this point I am absolutely sure that this content is going to be great.

[@motorinc]

Thanks @satweeksaswat9732, what did you think of the episode?

[@satweeksaswat9732]

The conversation was quite intriguing I loved the episode.

[@tharun72]

Completely irrelevant question but when can we watch the MotorInc first video of the Guerilla 450?😃😃

[@motorinc]

Stay tuned @tharun72!

[@tharun72]

@@motorinc alright😃😍

[@RevsAndWheels]

If nuclear vehicles ever get made, we would have the water problem though. The nuclear energy heats water, which spins the turbine, which generates electricity...

[@motorinc]

👍🏽

[@Abhisek_03]

Great insightful content as usual no complains there, but where is the upcoming episode topic play between you two? I loved that part at the end when you guys just play some back n forth after a great conversion really missed it.

[@motorinc]

Thank you for the feedback @kakarot9899!

[@NavjyotSingh0001]

During 18-19th Peanut Oil was used in vechiles and gave a really good mileage aswell. We can explore many options. But the idea of Nuclear fision as a fuel is not so far, people are working on it. One of the example of this is NASA - Project Orion. Great Fun Podcast. Also Voyager 1 can be a great study that can be taken up for future fueling alternatives, OR REMs

[@motorinc]

Thanks NS! The Voyagers are heroes. ❤️

[@nikhilpatil6543]

HElpful Information as always. Can you guys do video recommending bike and car as per budget bands? It will be helpful.

[@motorinc]

Hi Nikhil, any specific vehicles or segments you were thinking of?

[@nikhilpatil6543]

@@motorinc Personally , Bike for around 1 lakh budget & Car for around 7 Lakh budget (new or 2nd hand).

[@nikhilpatil6543]

@@motorinc And thanks for reply. I did not expect that. You guys are truly amazing. Hope you will be same when you become super huge. And I really appreciate that you did not mince your words & give thoughtful criticism with as thoughtful solutions.

[@rahulpati3514]

Never thought I'll hear terms like CSR and ESG on this podcast 😅 ... That's the beauty of it 🎉 whata thought-provoking episode ❤ #motorinc

[@sho_k1]

You should say "Thisconnect" without countdown and while facing the camera. The struggle would be something to look forward to at the end of the each episode.

[@motorinc]

Um, that's what they did in this one @sho_k1?

[@sho_k1]

"without countdown". ​@@motorinc

[@ameykaval5576]

Side eyeing my phone and just waiting for that motor inc pop up ! ❤

[@motorinc]

Glad to have you join us @ameykaval5576.

[@khs3274]

Awesome insight ❤❤ love from Hyderabad

[@motorinc]

Thanks a lot @khs3274!

[@pratikindia27]

I feel Diesels can't get very expensive beyond the level they are today, because of commercial vehicles. Any more price hikes, and prices of everyday goods will go through roof. Almost all trucks (at least around Maharashtra or South) have Diesels and it won't make a business sense to run them if more price hikes are introduced. Plus, Turbo petrols fuel efficiency is soo bad, at times you feel punished for getting that performance or power. You realistically only use it 5 or 10% of the driving time. Diesels won't make you feel bad about the power (or guity). Great fuel efficiency, not so great price gap and all discouraging or punishing is already done (it seems!) to say the least. So I guess Diesel will still make sense.. if you could have pre BS6 diesel vehicle without AdBlue problem

[@shresthsonkar9207]

Commercial vehicle tax slabs are different from the pvt ones, the real cost of the diesel is not in the price of purchase as much as the headaches of dpf and adblue that come with it. EUROVII & BS7 is hanging guillotine on even petrols, let alone diesel, the costs to bring it upto the new emissions norms are going to be back breaking

[@pratikindia27]

@@shresthsonkar9207 I'm saying, price hikes of fuel (not vehicle). It's already at 90 something vs Petrol at 105. Any more hike and it will hamper the everyday goods cost. And I'm not advocating to buy new Diesel with AdBlue headache. But if you already have pre 2019 diesel, or buy one in resale around that time.. it still makes sense to run that vehicle till you are forced to not renew the registration (after 15 years).

[@shantanubbhosale]

Shumi & Kartikeya can we have a small conversation about Solid State Batteries. They seem really promising. They're lighter, degrade slower and have higher power density than Li-ion. Discovered them in the Yoshino Powerbank. Great conversation like always

[@motorinc]

Thanks SB for the suggestion.

[@tarunprabhu2562]

I'm sincerely hoping RNG / CBG is the silver bullet we need. Technically, it should be able to take most types of biomass. Biggest problem with Natural Gas is storage, by the way, Methane (the largest constituent of natural gas) can be converted to Ethanol pretty easily. I'm not sure about economies of scale but this would basically mean ICEs forever! Also, CNG can be used in tandem with fuel cell and motor. Even though Hydrogen is a lot of power per kg, it's significantly harder to store. Curious which solution will eventually manage economy of scale.

[@shresthsonkar9207]

when we say CH4 to C2H5OH easily, it probably involves multiple chemical reactions which involves heating to 1500ºC in presence of catalyst to make acetylene C2H2, then it must be treated with H2SO4 to make ethanol, usage of high temperatures and acids means it will be costly and heat must come from somewhere, which basically means burning something else to generate the heat

[@vehisure]

Great conversation as always but I am curious as to why weren't synthetic fuels discussed!

[@motorinc]

Not feasible enough yet @Vehify!

[@vehisure]

@@motorinc agreed but I do think that India is the place to make things cost effective like we have have done for other things

[@masterwayne8253]

@49:00 talking about tourbillon just a curious thought...wonder why both Mr.Dark and Mr.zen sport an apple watch and why not sport a mechanical/automatic one. & if you guys do so what would that be?🤔 the apple watch feels like modern EV's some how.. i do own one just don't like as much as the Seamaster.

[@motorinc]

Noice!

[@hairstuff371]

Forget electric society and apartment in metro are not very good terms with electric vehicles and charging them on your own parking allotted slots

[@7567_Rex]

@@hairstuff371 Karnataka govt has released order stating that apartment can’t stop owner from installing charger in their parking

[@motorinc]

Ahh… have you had any issues?

[@hairstuff371]

@@motorinc my society/appsrtment does jot allow it so let it go i don’t want to be in arguments and legalities as they don’t save much

[@msbharat017]

What episode man. Gadkari ji get them into transport ministry

[@motorinc]

Thanks for joining us @msbharat017.

[@igneouznayan]

That is some hard hitting podcast!

[@motorinc]

Thank you for joining us @igenouznayan.

[@adityapriyadarshi1227]

As a climate entrepreneur, just want to point out @Shumi that there is conclusive research now that shows the current climate calamity would not be happening if human activity wasn't there. Happy to share much more context

[@motorinc]

Hi @adityapriyadarshi1227, thanks for the info. Please share more research if you have them so that everyone can learn more. Thanks in advance.

[@satyabratapal8977]

Great episode as always. I would like to say that the motive of this episode was not have an opinion for or against any energy source but to discuss about what we have now and where are we moving towards in terms of how we power our vehicles. On the EV side of things this is my personal opinion. When i bought my first EV I never thought of it as a way to save money on fuel. I test drove all the cars which were on my list and i liked the idea of a silent cabin and the driving experience. Saving fuel was not on my list anyways. The point I am trying to make here is that today if someone is buying an ev from the perspective of saving fuel costs then it is only justified when the usage is very very high. However, if the driving experience of an ev , the charging ecosystem (in current scenario) and the range is something fits to your lifestyle then do go for an EV because it's the vehicle that should fit our lifestyle and not the other way round. From my personal experience charging has never been a hassle for me so far be it within city or long drives but I do understand that we are not yet at a stage where we can say that the charging infra is worry free everywhere and if this bothers someone then it's not the better ev ownership experience for them presently. And yes presently ev doesn't make sense for some vehicles like motorcycles (from an enthusiast point of view). All forms of energy have an associated "cost" in terms of the environmental impact as currently humanity is not that advanced technologically where we can produce 100% impactless energy. That is why we should be having multiple energy source choices for our vehicles as the whole point of having these many choices is to try out things and ultimately move towards energy sources which have lesser and lesser impact on the environment.

[@motorinc]

This here summarises our intent behind doing the episode beautifully @satyabratapal8977. Thanks for sharing!

[@satyabratapal8977]

@@motorinc pleasure is all mine 😊

[@mostwanted_007]

On the point of better laws needed: There was a new law about rear seat belt reminders being made mandatory. What that law didn't state was that the seat belt reminders have to be accompanied by load sensors below the seats! And so everyone from Martuti to Tata simply implemented a software based seat belt reminder that ensured that the seat belts have to be belted in even if the passenger is not present! That's the most inconvenient solution possible. So people will simply keep the belts inserted in and never even bother to belt themselves just to avoid the annoying beeps.

[@motorinc]

😑

[@0220vaibhav]

I am loving this format however, i would love to see you guys do a podcast with other auto journalists, top officials of auto industry etc. 😊

[@motorinc]

Thanks for the feedback Vaibhav!

[@akshaybhagwat1335]

Guys please make a podcast on "how we will drive tomorrow" will we really own vehicles decade down the line? What's the benefit of collecting all the data at the moment? Will we be just passengers after some time? Work live to hear you both on this!

[@motorinc]

We have kinda touched upon this already Akshay. We think that down the line we'll all just be passengers inside the car. We mostly won't have to own one too. Shumi's pessimistic about motorcycles in this future and Kartikeya has valiantly said that he'll fight to keep riding motorcycles. Guess we're gonna have to wait and see what happens. 😅

[@bharathkashyapm]

F1 cars are storing energy while braking and while accelarating, heat energy from engines is used to stabilise turbo spooling and all 4 engine manufacturer is 50 % efficient. This tech can be used for time being

[@motorinc]

👍🏽👍🏽

[@WeKnowIslam94]

Plugin hybrid is my favourite option for car but it cost minimum 30 lakhs... And in India most people buy cars around 15 lakhs

[@SriHariKalyanB]

We need to think out of the box more intensely that's all. For instance, coming to Bajaj freedom bike and the possible future CNG manifestations, there are many things to explore. The degree of compression of the cylinder maybe increased by using some other innovative material other than metal thereby increasing the capacity of the cylinders. Also, why not think about a different shape.. why only cylinder? We might come up with some other shape and form altogether that easily fits in tight spaces and simultaneously holds larger capacity of gas as well. I don't think we're finished innovating here.. 😁

[@shresthsonkar9207]

cylinder and sphere are very strong shapes as in they are well suited to handling pressure by distributing it along the curved walls right angles don't like pressure and are potential failure point

[@souravyadav9909]

I like the addition of the new colors in the background as a viewer. Keep mixing up with colors and more Mkbhd is one creator who keeps doing really minimal but subtle changes every now and then

[@motorinc]

Thanks SY!

[@mostwanted_007]

Lol that example of a new eco friendly house where you can only go to the loo once a day cracked me up more than it should. EVs do seem like that new house with limited range and slow and finicky charging infra.

[@motorinc]

😁

[@swapnilshelake6690]

Damm guy knows about Super Capacitors, would love to listen to more new tech like SS batteries, generator based hybrids and more

[@clarimondrocha5121]

If memory serves me right, i think honda was working on a cng activa a couple of years back

[@motorinc]

We hope they are still working on it @clarimondrocha5121.

[@MrTech153]

very interesting discussion... thank you

[@motorinc]

Thanks for joining us @MrTech153

[@akhilrathod2148]

The telecom reforms, which were initiated by CHANDRA BABU NAIDU (atal ji times) in 90's is the best example of policy reforms. which we're benefitting now! VISION is what need for the Indian politicians!

[@krishnanand8335]

Ah, that's a very nice reference to Michael Crichton's "State of Fear". I'm grateful that I came across this book very early in life which gave an alternate perspective to Global Warming & Climate change related fear mongering.

[@thatduke390guy]

Since we're talking about a movement here at motorinc. Can we discuss some modern automobile features that are absolutely ridiculous like lightbar taillights (cheap way of getting out of designing a proper taillights) or indicator and taillights integrated into one for the same reason. Hidden exhaust pipes (is it just me who likes a visible exhaust?). Piano black interiors (absolute scratch dirt and finger print magnet). Headlights positioned near fog lights (looking at you hyundai).

[@motorinc]

Thanks TD3G! There is a lot! 😁

[@adhokshravishankar]

This episode was truly insightful and enjoyable! It’s great to have something captivating to watch for an hour online, all thanks to MotorInc. 😀

[@motorinc]

Hullo again AR! Thanks so much for your time!

[@sambabro4454]

For a cng scooter may be the general idea of the shape of a cylinder may need to change

[@motorinc]

Tough to do @sambabro4454. There's a reason that we still have a gas "cylinder". It's pretty much the best shape to store gas in.

[@savvywarrier1174]

For India ethanol, bamboo is the way forward given the low maintenance and water needs and its biochar strength

[@cycleworldkalyannagar311]

you guys said that you'll be doing "BRAND LOYALTY" in this connect S02E02. waiting for it.

[@priyanshu_sharma7023]

My dad's 2007 hero honda CD Deluxe can't handle E10 petrol . So yeah , we do need multiple fuel options Petrol Bunks should have Pure petrol , E10 ,E20 , E85 , E100 etc. so one can choose as per their vehicle and cleaner fuels should be cheaper so that people would shift towards cleaner vehicles

[@motorinc]

Oh shucks!

[@haridasification]

Excellent podcast with balanced viewpoints

[@motorinc]

Hullo H! How you been?

[@nishantpratapsingh6628]

ESG means Environment Social Governance. It is a philosophy of running a company and not a boundation or philanthropy like CSR... It basically means that company is working on his business in a way to least effect environment or to help environment or to work towards environment, it is helping socially to his employees and general public either by its product or CSR. Governance is good management for healthy work culture and all legal and moral things likes taxes and salaries, etc.... There are now Mutual fund for them.... companies boast about their ESG goals.

[@motorinc]

Yep! And that’s another convoluted conversation. 😆

[@sijankolay6145]

Recently Shell stopped its big biofuel project in Rotterdam

[@sijankolay6145]

Scalabilityb and money is the issue for almost evey other alternative.

[@vanditgambhir]

does octane 95 fuel also have ethanol mixed in it? if no, will you try to use it in your car to check if things improve.