Mountaineers Climb Over Mortally Wounded Porter to Reach K2 Summit | K2 Disaster Analysis

[@loooopeytunes]

A popular quote among hikers and mountaineers "The mountain will reveal the true face of people who climbed it"

[@SF-fb6lv]

The gentleman I climbed with on Mt. Rainier, who also has climbed Everest and K2, famously participated in two extreme altitude rescues, giving up his summit bids. Luckily, I have been fortunate enough to be taught by a truly good climber.

[@jacedjohnson3541]

@@SF-fb6lvdid he ever get to summit them?

[@artmallory970]

There are old mountaineers & there are bold mountaineers, but there a no old, bold mountaineers...

[@Sarmatae1]

​@@artmallory970 All mountaineers are bold. Every single of them. I think the word you're probably looking for is "brazen". Those are usually the ones that do shit they're not supposed to and get themselves or other climbers hurt. Fortunately for the rest of us, they are super easy to spot from a distance so you can stay well out of their fall line.

[@artmallory970]

@@Sarmatae1 It was actually an old Pilot's saying: 'There are old Pilots & there a bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots'. It's the same principal. You take high risks - it's only a matter of time before your luck runs out - statistical probability, or law of averages...

[@SirArghPirate]

I really hope I never happen to be in a situation where Todd Grande speculates what could be happening in a situation like mine.

[@morticiaheisenberg9679]

😂😂😂😂me too!! Some people live by "What Would Jesus Do" I live by "What Would Judge Judy Saw and Dr Grande Speculate" that keeps me out of trouble

[@markusgorelli5278]

It depends. If I was the victim in the crime or something, I would be honored if my gruesome death would be featured on his channel.

[@nhmooytis7058]

Me 2 😂

[@flickymurph]

😂😂

[@bandlehars]

Best comment ever 😂

[@Paul-ou1rx]

You will not be remembered for the mountains you've climbed, but for the people you climbed over to get there.

[@thebusinesswoman23]

😅

[@hiddengem-is8cw]

Huh

[@Jimmybarth]

Don't think so

[@kimmuckenfuss2284]

Ain't it the damn truth! The more I think about your statement, I believe this is the mantra they teach to the future 1% when they're in college.

[@utubewillyman]

​@@kimmuckenfuss2284In terms of average income worldwide, you're in the 1%.

[@markstevenson6635]

In 1953, Art Gilkey was NOT brought down. During the rescue, he was swept away and his body not found by his team. The rescuers nearly ALL died in a fall during the rescue but were only saved by a miraculous belay by Pete Schoening. And, as you noted, this occurred at a much lower elevation. Then there is the case of Dudley Wolfe and the Sherpas who died trying to rescue him in 1939.

[@johngerson7335]

Crazy thing is, the fall that nearly killed them all, as well as the loss of Gilkey which followed occurred within 100 meters of camp VII, where Dudley presumably died in 1939. Not to be grotesque, but the survivors have stated that they did encounter _traces_ of Gilkey's remains on the descent from camp VII to camp VI the day following the accident, after they spent the night at camp VII. One of them said something to the effect of "..we knew as we climbed down that Gilkey had come down the same course which we were descending, presumably bouncing along in a terrible style..."

[@MichelleRomero-lf1nu]

​​@@johngerson7335😮😢

[@shuswapbcoutdoors8652]

About 3 weeks after I summitted two peaks in the Canadian Rockies on a guided trip, my college buddy died on a similar climb when his entire 7-person team broke through a snow bridge and tumbled into a relatively small crevasse. Six of them walked out of the crevasse, but my buddy died quickly from a crushing chest injury when he was flung against the crevasse wall. His daughter was 11 years, my 3 kids were pre-schoolers. That was almost 30 years ago; I never climbed again.

[@A-classic-smithy]

I will never hike in the winter, it's dangerous enough in good weather. One slip, dizziness, and it's all over, that fast.

[@lisanelke9726]

How tragic 🥺

[@amang1001]

Damn what was your friend's name? My next beer is for him...

[@glow1815]

To be honest I'm glad you never climb again. Risking to do something that is dangerous only time will tell.

[@scottandrews947]

Pretty stupid and selfish to take those kinds of risks when you have young children.

[@MrDlt123]

Im a former climber. - I just got old, which is a blessing, all things considered. There is NO comparison between Everest and K2 climbers. Many Everest climbers can be considered novices at BEST, whereas K2 demands very high levels of skill from every mountaineer. But even so, the death rates are still far higher. This is because the slopes are relentless and steep; all of the skill in the world will not protect you from freak events like avalanches and freak storms. And because K2 doesnt have even 1/20th traffic as Everest, that means you have far few support and rescue personnel on site if you get into trouble. Its a desolate and unforgiving place to have an incident.

[@chohaewon88]

Did you get to climb both of these?

[@valerierodger]

That is no longer true. A few years ago, the expedition companies began to commercialized K2, and now it is essentially Everest 2.0. For the right price, you can have two sherpas dedicated to getting you to the summit, which makes up for lack of personal skill in mountaineering.

[@stevecarter8810]

Seems like getting old is a pretty good fate for a serial mountaineer.

[@MrP-kw3lf]

There are old mountaineers and bold mountaineers but there are no old bold mountaineers, as they say.

[@cb9746]

From everything I've seen or read, I agree. Im guessing this kind of thing happens a fair but just got filmed this time

[@loiskondo8349]

I feel climbing these time types of mountains comes with ethical dilemmas. I am glad I have absolutely no desire to do so. Thank you Dr. Grande for another thoughtful video!

[@H37P5kY57]

my husband went to do Kilimanjaro and no training that year as he was doing his dissertation and we were discussing marriage and possible move to Europe. I think most climbers are smart enough to know what their limits are. The night before he summited he said he didn't even think he was going to go that morning to summit as it was so cold and difficult to breathe - he knows his limits and isn't going to bother climbing these types of peaks. I think for Hassan - the quest of wanting to help his family got in the way of judgement as he's never climbed to those altitudes nor did he really have proper equipment especially for someone who was inexperienced for these types of technical climbs. It's really sad but I suppose its typical that most of us when we love people we will go to extreme lengths to make it work..like the parent that their child has a terrible disease and they go through bankruptcy to becoming homeless all to save the life of their child... I suppose that's why I generally like to get someone else's opinion on when I go to great lengths as I'm aware when you're emotionally invested in something it's really hard to pull back. Someone once told me the best type of advice is the one you'd give to your own child.

[@monacoofthebluepacific2571]

I'm also glad I had no desire to do things like thus. But I wish I'd been there to at least comfort him during his last hours; talking to him about his family etc ...

[@monacoofthebluepacific2571]

​@@H37P5kY57Very well said 🥺

[@Fiona2254]

My husband had a mountaineering thing going on at some point. After a scary night all alone in Mt Rainer he changed his mind about going up and came down the mountain. He had Everest obsession for a while but watching Everest movie of the disaster in 1996 finished curing him of the selfish desire to climb ever higher. Climbing is a selfish endeavor and I’m never surprised to hear these things happen in the death zone. BTW if you don’t want to die on mountains do NOT pay for guides who will basically drag you up the mountain for money. Train and aclimate before you risk your life on the mountains.

[@sylviekins]

@@H37P5kY57well said- those of us living in first world conditions need to think before we speak, that is for sure.

[@Erikazilla]

kudos to the brazilian dude who tried saving the porter, even sharing his oxygen with him, while others were just stepping over his body

[@jamesmaybrick2001]

Because thats NOT a place or location you CAN safely stop. A backjam of folks all standing around could well have resulted in many more fatalities. Its funny how folks are judging others for actions happening at extremes of where people can survive.

[@omariwest9068]

@@jamesmaybrick2001/ agreed! and then when the Brazilian dude ran out of air they’d probably expect the others to risk their lives saving him. Then they’d be at risk.

[@aldranzam3456]

@@jamesmaybrick2001 the problem isn't they didn't help. It's the accepted for him to be hired in those conditions in the first place. They're responsible for the exploitation that caused his death.

[@TheSubpremeState]

I don't think the guy fully understands what it's like near a mountain a fraction this size

[@stuffbinaboxdos]

Damn right! Probably the most decent human beings on the mountain that day.❤

[@andarwarje8127]

My step dad gave up his climbing career after climbing Denali and meeting another group who lost one of their members on the mountain. He said, I decided I didn't want to die up there. These stories always make me think of him. It's normalized to step over dead bodies in a quest to make it to the top, which I find disgusting enough, can't imagine stepping over someone fighting for their life.

[@newnamesameperson397]

It's an easy choice especially when it's my survival VS yours. But my opinion is that mountain climbing is a stupid hobby that needlessly endangers lives just like diving and cave exploring

[@georgemen]

@@newnamesameperson397 the problem isn't in the hobby itself. I wouldnt do it myself, but the abillity to push yourself for years and years with strict training and going through all that just to "conquer" a peak is a deeply "human" thing to do - and that's not the problem. The problem is the travelling agencies that advertise it as it's supposed to be for anyone just for the right price and people who should not be there end up there. It's got to this point where you got people waiting in line to get to the peak, which cause bottlenecks, people pushing eacho other by accident, people not paying attention to their own selves/teams because, hey, someone else is right on your back wanting to get to the top, and stuff like that.

[@Seasniffer1969]

​@@georgementraining for a decade plus isn't the same as training for a summer. So I absolutely agree. If I can't run a full marathon, ya i probably can't climb a mountain is my motto.

[@MartineH1]

Yes, the sport don't test your physical and mental strengh to suceed but your egoism and cold heart to ignore those ones that are left behind dying. You are training your lack of empathy.

[@richardb8104]

@@MartineH1 Nah, it's just too extreme for you, and that's ok.

[@fredalwatkins4506]

If you can't save someone, comforting them as they are dying is a beautiful thing

[@cremdilly7176]

That's a good point. The thought of him dying alone up there is sad.

[@Dr.Pancho.Tortilla]

Saying what to comfort them? that they will soon meet Jesus or prophet Muhammad? Well that's a lie

[@againsttheleftandright4065]

@@Dr.Pancho.Tortilla Yikes. Maybe just be there as another human being or animal in their final moments.

[@Dr.Pancho.Tortilla]

@@againsttheleftandright4065 the world is brutal, and there's no escape from that.

[@mrazik131]

I imagine cold, lack of oxygen and forecast of storm, if i stay behind that there is a HIGH chance of death, I feel your sentiment but no the healthy thing is to go....staying 2 hours behind is death for you dear compassionate person.

[@sweeabn6736]

I know its just Mt Rainier, but I greatly appreciate the people who reprimanded me when they found that I did not have sufficient supplies on my way up. They cared for me and sent me back down. :)

[@amyepstein4868]

And you were smart enough and logical enough to listen to them!! Many have died on mountains because they didn't heed advice.. Mt. Ranier is a mountain, commands respect and you gave the mountain respect. 🥶🏔

[@sweeabn6736]

@@amyepstein4868 Thank you -- I was strangely not a bit embarrassed at the reprimand. I felt loved and cared for. It was a wonderful, beautiful day.

[@jenerin905]

​​@@sweeabn6736That's a wonderful way to put it. A lot of people let their pride get in the way and refuse to listen. I'm glad you're here and able to tell your story!

[@Tina06019]

You are a very smart climber.

[@Pippi-Longstocking]

That’s a hard conversation to have, even if your willing to have it. For some people it’s difficult to hear. I love that you took it in the vein it was probably given: care and concern. You must be a delight to travel with! (No sarcasm! I genuinely mean it)

[@Liam-zw1ek]

"The opportunity to unnecessarily risk their lives was quickly passing them by..." love it.

[@p.siadoreyou9050]

Financial desperation can cause a person to put themselves in dangerous positions. This case is heartbreaking 💔

[@bazle64]

Capitalistic exploitation and tyranny

[@throbbinwoodofcoxley6830]

@@llamamama2910the hell they were.

[@sylviekins]

@@shellyliban7069well he paid for it. We who go to bed (and have a bed and a roof over our heads) with full bellies, have no right to judge this man. I apologise that I make the assumption that you have a reasonably comfortable existence.

[@valerierodger]

@@shellyliban7069 it wasn’t selfish at all. He wasn’t up there for his own glory, he was trying to feed his family.

[@Luna_2085]

@@shellyliban7069 What's selfish is making people risk their lives and all for an expensive hobby, knowing that they will go to extremes for literally crumbs, I bet those climbers have socks more expensive than what the porters make a day of climbing. They see them being exploited, but they don't care as long as it helps them fulfill their own selfish endeavor...

[@SentMyOwnWay]

The best thing you can do when it comes to people is to keep your expectations low. The selfishness of average people can be shocking.

[@mrparlanejxtra]

Homer Simpson says this too.

[@Flamsterette]

Yup, like this guy earlier today who held up the grocery checkout line for almost ten minutes, demanding multiple price checks on a bag of Hawaiian buns that were 30% off. I had a full shopping cart, including ice cream and frozen lasagna!

[@comradeballin]

@@Flamsteretteno. it’s not like that at all.

[@jimh6254]

The selfishness of the average person used to shock me, but now I expect it

[@SentMyOwnWay]

@@comradeballinyou say that, but the people who hold up a grocery line for no good reason are probably the same ones who would step over you as you lay there dying. Different scenarios, same energy.

[@Lcm2003]

Whether it was possible to save him or not is one thing, that woman‘s behaviour after he had passed and getting back to base camp where they partied and celebrated themselves for their record is another and was just disgusting and shows what she truly cares about - collecting records to pump up her ego and not the human life that was lost while trying to help them feed their soulless ambitions.

[@celem12]

I would say that the companies who commercialised the c'imbing and charges thousands of domlars per person but than pay a dude 3$ a day as a lot more blame imo. You could also argue that the people who pay these companies to climb whilst knowing workers risk their lives for measly pays are also to blame.

[@Jesus.Fuckery]

*You Put your StuPud Values upon a Group of PeoPLe who Live by a Diff set of RuLes!!!* *EveryOne there Paid a LOT of Money to be on a Suicide Mission!!!!* *OnLy the Serpas can be HeLp AccountaBLe, if AnyBody!!!!*

[@anacleta424]

Had she stay to keep helping him would have been the humane thing to do. Just supposed that was her hanging like that the outcome would have been different. It was more important to her to finish the climb than try to save a human. ✌️

[@michelledodge2599]

The companies that run these climbs should not sun people up without at least a four-man rescue team who do nothing else, but rescue anyone who paid for their climb

[@ArtU4All]

“Sole less ambitions” so well said 😞😰

[@danparish1344]

I talked to someone who climbed Everest once. When she talked more about her life, the stories were that of narcissistic fantasy and couldn’t possibly be true. Sure, many that go on these just have a passion for climbing, but anecdotally, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if most of these people have little to no empathy. The person I talked to was clearly driven by a need to be perceived as special more than anything else in her life.

[@adalEun]

thats because those people have never worked hard to achieve something physical. therefor they try to make whatever special event they do seem greater than what they are. For example the ability to do a simple backflip on land is much more impressive than climbing a mountain like this because the difference is a mountain requires outside factors like clothes and gears, a backflip on the other hand only requires human ability.

[@mysteryseaker1914]

Exactly-"narcissistic fantasy."

[@chriswitt2596]

Just the idea that the porter had three children three boys in fact makes me so sad. Couldn't one of the rich climbers go on down the mountain I'll give you a few hundred dollars when I get back down. That would be nothing to some of these rich people that desire to climb the mountain.

[@aldranzam3456]

They all should be fucking ashamed of themselves, using the services of empoverished locals, risking the porters and sherpas' lives for less than you'd spend for a fast food meal. If these people are so bored of their privileged lives, and want leave their corpse as a landmark, they should at least have the decency to not take others with them.

[@stellviahohenheim]

at least he died doing what he loved

[@Tina06019]

This is a gruesome story. Mohammed Hassan was told to go down. He must have known he was not prepared for this work. Did his employers pressure him to do it, or did his own significant economic need cause the judgment-impairing pressure? Many local porters and high altitude guides take these jobs to send their children to school in Katmandu. These men want their own sons to be able to take better, less hazardous jobs.

[@L-K-Jellyfish]

Dr Grande said that he had 3 sons and a diabetic mother to look after.

[@citizenoftheearth6]

I can't believe they pay the porters only 20$ per day!!! They spend tens of thousands on their equipment, trip, and climb, but can't raise the pay for the guys who do the hardest work.

[@laurenurban3942]

That’s the problem. Once the big guy makes his profit…..there’s nothing left for the little guy. That’s how greedy people are today.

[@TatraScrambler]

Katmandu? You mean some imam Islamabad? This is Pakistan and K2, remember? Not Nepal with its Everest.

[@jcjcviews]

Can we imagine this poor fellow dangling in the air and how his family and loved ones must cope with the memory? (Who needs such a job?!) Right, you are. I've worked with these folks from Nepal. Now I know why they're not impressed when I talk to them about the accomplishments of sherpas and mountain climbing. What troubles me above all else and yet enlightens me for the best? I learned the extent to which we innocent humans are worth so little in the grand scheme. My friends, for all "our" progress, we remain in a lonely, uncaring world, vast numbers of us, and Mr. Hassan's story is an excellent example of where we find the "rich" by any standard and the rest of us. We are so naive. May you RIP, Mr. Hassan, and God be forever with you and yours.

[@quhan7664]

My friends and I once encountered a girl crying alone while hiking a local mountain trail. This hiking trail is famous for local legend and supernatural sighting. One of my friend though she was a ghost. We were spooked for a while seeing a girl crying in the middle of a rainforest, as it's not something you usually see or experience. But I notice she was in hiking gear and back pack. I decided to approach her and ask her why she was crying. To my relive she was not a ghost or anything supernatural. But she was from another hiking expedition. It turns out that she was relative new to hiking and her team mates decides to leave her behind since she was to slow. We decide that she could join us and try to comfort her the best we could. Long story short, in the end she was no longer crying and after the end of the hiking trip, she promised not to hike with such people who leaves their team mates behind.

[@markusgorelli5278]

I had a work colleague who once led a hiking group. Heading back out one day, one of the ladies was slow and was holding back the entire group. She wanted to sit and rest. He was worried because it was getting late and the forest would be dark earlier. Not for nothing would she hurry up so he told her that if they didn't get out soon, that bears and lions would be out. That frightened her so much that she got up quick. I had to laugh when he told the story because we don't have any bears or lions in our country.

[@PaulLoveless-Cincinnati]

This is a heartwarming story.

[@LilyGazou]

@@markusgorelli5278😂 In my area we do have mountain lions and bears. We would never leave anyone behind alone.

[@nhmooytis7058]

She was inexperienced and shouldn’t have been there.

[@Hygelac1000]

Considering all the dangers and possibilities of a rescue on an unforgiving mountain like K2 is one thing, but just leaving someone behind on a hike is disgusting. That is far more callous than this K2 story. I've been in this situation and I put the slow person's arm over my neck and I made him walk my speed before he realized the pace required and started walking again on his own. That poor woman.

[@calthorp]

I was a climber & was a member of search & rescue. It is very hard for 6 trained people to carry one guy on a proper stretcher on a formed track. Never mind at that altitude with no rescue equipment no trained people & on a difficult mountain. He would have died trying to get him down. However this does not absolve the callous nature of people walking past & not offering to help or trying to give comfort. God help them.

[@darthkek1953]

He had people though. They were sharing oxygen for as long as possible.

[@stine7144]

then what should the other gropus do then? Spend 10 minutes of their oxygen to speak of allah or jesus? While possibly not making it down themselves? 1/3 die trying to ascend K2. Stopping to chat is a death hazard. Please dont.@@darthkek1953

[@jscab7140]

The most sad is that some people celebrate his summit after , as nothing wrong happen

[@DeffoZappo]

People don't realize that in order to summit these peaks they have to walk past dead bodies. It's gross what happened but it's probably common

[@davidturner1641]

Also many millionaires paying $20 for a 25% death rate job

[@katherinebergdahl2669]

This reminds me so much of Jon Krakauer’s “Into Thin Air” about Mount Everest. It’s terrible and unimaginable the kinds of atrocities the sherpas endure in order to satisfy tourists’ grandiose egos

[@steveshea7725]

Yes those lazy tourists were having a hechuva time relaxing and sucking down slushy Mai Tais up in the Death Zone.

[@inquisitivenessandcontempl9918]

The sherpas make a living off the climbers they would have never been able to afford otherwise. That's what they do. They would be severely worse off if the tourists disappeared. They are paid, they are doing their job for money. You are not doing them a favor by depicting them as indentured servants or slaves, which they are not. And in "Into thin air" Anatoly Boukreev actually saved several people from the mountain by putting his own life at stake. While Krakauer himself refused to go out with Anatoly because he just wasn't able to. It's not a matter of personal choice whether you feel like saving someone or you'd rather not to in those conditions. It's about whether you are physically able to or not.

[@ytc257]

Do you know Jesus is a messenger of God

[@Sushikatherman]

Such a good book!

[@ayatollahlalalola]

That book is full of lies and highly disputed by everyone else on that mountain that day. It's a good sensationalized narrative to make Jon Krakauer money.

[@bunnymad5049]

Thank you. You filled in a lot of what the media didn't, so I had ignored their outrage headlines. You keep it calm and sensible. It is terrible he felt compelled to risk his life due to such poverty, and love for his mother. And now she is mourning him. It's just so sad.

[@adjohnson9897]

.. plus his 3 boys are without their father and his wife is without a husband.

[@bunnymad5049]

@@adjohnson9897 I had no idea. That's even sadder. 😢

[@slucas6303]

@@bunnymad5049 It’s mentioned in the video…

[@bunnymad5049]

@@slucas6303 LOL. Because you remember every minute detail from what you've watched 8 days prior. Good for you, darling. 😘

[@hannahvickery4683]

I really appreciate the detail and gaps filled in here. I think the biggest issue to me now that I know this is that these commercial climbing expeditions rely on exploiting vulnerable, desperate people and don't equip or train them properly. Even if there wasn't a chance of saving him at the end, he could have had a much higher chance of survival if he were properly trained and equipped and if the people on the expedition were properly trained and cared to look out for each other and saw each other as part of the team.

[@BDnevernind]

Yeah, I made my judgment of these climbers when I heard that groups of them only pay $20/day/porter. They are all rich, and yet even in groups they pay this ludicrous market rate just because they can get away with it. I am far from rich as that's what I tip my plumber just for coming out. These people were indecent before they started the climb.

[@melissamcclain34]

​@@BDnevernindtotally agree!

[@michelebrowne418]

I totally agree with this. Where are the Sherpa/porter union organizers!?! Another issue is how climbers can distance themselves from the treatment and pay of these people by thinking that the sherpas are the responsibility of expedition group they have hired. “Not my problem.” It’s all on the expedition company. Then the expedition company shoves it all off on native organizers. More distancing. Better, more expensive companies treat all their employees better, but there are plenty of cut rate outfits willing to take advantage of people with little to no other option.

[@BDnevernind]

@@michelebrowne418 A whole world of oppression I never knew about. Holy hell.

[@user-jo5ml8et1z]

​@@michelebrowne418 I don't necessarily disagree, but do you make sure everyone you deal with is treated and paid fairly? Do you investigate how the cashier at the grocery store is paid , if she has health benefits, etc., or if the clerk behind the gas station you buy gas at is making a living wage? I highly doubt it. Poor countries are poor because of the people who built their societies, and it's ultimately up to them to fix that.

[@RileyRunsWithScissors]

The route through the bottleneck on k2 is single file, very narrow and has huge seracs hanging over it and is avalanche prone. Six people carrying another person between them could not fit down the route. A helicopter rescue would have likely caused falling seracs and/or avalanches, burying and/or killing everyone at the porters location. Everyone who attempts these insane climbs are forewarned that if you run into trouble high up on the mountain, and you cannot move under your own power, there is nothing anyone can do for you and you will die. K2 and Everest are both littered with frozen dead bodies due to this simple fact. If you attempt one of these peaks, you cannot expect rescue. It’s wonderful if it can be done, and an amazing feat, for sure…..but you just can’t expect it.

[@valerierodger]

No excuse. Rescue is possible as long as the person is responsive and can aid in their own rescue. Entitled narcissists just like to throw around excuses for not even stopping to see if they can assist.

[@steveshea7725]

​@@valerierodgerblah blah blah, valley dweller. You don't have a clue what it is like to operate in a low oxygen environment, where each step forward takes five breaths.

[@missdemeanor3524]

​@@valerierodgerI don't think you understood what the OP said. But everyone knows you stamp your feet and cover your ears and say BAD.

[@smilesfordays]

@@valerierodgerthe problem with “assisting” is that it ends up much like trying to help drowning victims. If a dying person pulls you down you’ll drown too. The people up there have very little oxygen, and would be endangering their own lives to try. You would have those people die as well? The fact they got him back up and not hanging dead was a tremendous effort that took supplies he didn’t come up with himself. The person who sent him up with the group in his company is liable. Everyone who goes up there knows they might die, but sure, tell you what, how about you go up and do that work to retrieve bodies or the injured on the mountain. Even going up should teach you a lot about your own limits and how being endangered by others unpreparedness would make you move to safety or not. I’m interested to hear if your opinions hold up.

[@victoriaalicewestwood3558]

Dr grande already mentioned that by the time they got him down he was unable to move or assist.

[@davejob630]

Saving a man from 27000 ft up K2 is a much greater achievement than climbing to the summit.

[@rasta77-x7o]

For normal moral folks like me, this is true, for social media morons they think a pic at the summit it more important.

[@nineteeneightynine432]

No none sherpa could have carried a body from the death zone down. To much weight for the average person

[@margodphd]

​@@nineteeneightynine432Yup

[@serenitynow66]

❤🧡💛💙🤎🤍💜❤

[@JeffreyAllanBackowski]

They probably wanted to save the porter, but he was all like "No, leave me, I'm a goner... reach the top... for me..." at least that is what I'm going say that's what his last words were as I cut the chump's safety line for slowing me down, then I would've tossed him down the mountain, no one would've known. How did anyone even find out the climbed over a wounded guy, did they tell people about it? I'm not even going to watch this video.

[@Jay5-0]

The blame falls on the expedition company. They put a inexperienced porter, without the proper equipment, on a mountain renowned for killing people.

[@costco_pizza]

The blame also lies on the climbers who stepped over them. They all need to be arrested immediately.

[@preciousmourning8310]

@@costco_pizza People have stepped over mortally wounded people high on mountains before when they were not able to be saved. This is the folly of allowing profit driven adventure companies to operate on the mountain. It's full of novice climbers who would have just gotten in the way. They would have needed about 6 experienced mountaineers to get him down because the lack of oxygen up there makes it hard to even move your own body and every weight is magnified. It's a tragic situation all around.

[@Beth-sn9ip]

Plus he decided to go whereas other porters didn't. He knew he didn't have the right equipment.

[@filipferencak2717]

​@@costco_pizzaYou wouldn't do a single thing to help him if you were there, so stfu

[@creativeamerican8811]

@@costco_pizzait’s not that simple. As much as I don’t like climbers like this, they couldn’t stop and do anything to help. Climbing over him to get to the top didn’t seem helpful but it would have allowed people behind them to come and help, if you have all your gear it’s not a simple thing to carry a person down a mountain. But I don’t know any of the story, whether help was coming or whether the Norwegian team did have the resources to help and carry him down. If so they should have obviously focused all their effort on that. And from my understanding it does maybe appear that they could have helped. But it isn’t as simple as it sounds. Just trust me. I haven’t climbed anything like this but done a few volcanoes and once you are up in those places you are on your own. The cold and altitude of these big daddies is like a different league to what I have done, you are fighting multiple elements and then add in a huge amount of luck as K2 has seracs and ice walls that break constantly.. I have no idea why people do these big ones. Fair enough the odd explorer may try it but I can’t stand rich kids who have nothing better to do on this world than risk their lives. Been so pampered they don’t know how to actually feel alive. Touching the Void is a great film but both the climbers and their mate are complete toss pots in many ways. Love to all. X

[@paulthew2]

I began rock climbing in the mid-eighties. I superficially knew a few top mountaineers, and they all said the same thing; K2 was the mountaineers mountain. It required a high level of mountaineering skill, and is very dangerous. Luck really helps. That it is now being used for paying customers, with ill-equipped, lowly-paid porters, is breathtakingly sad. I thought K2 was still the mountaineering jewel in the crown, so to speak. This is fucked.

[@wildliferox2]

What was this man doing on K2 if he had only ever been to base camp and no significant experience of climbing above that. From the images it looks like they were at the technically demanding Bottleneck and the Great Serac- that means this is the last push, you summit and then you come down. No way should an inexperienced climber have be there without support.

[@LDiamondz]

​@@wildliferox2I agree. He shouldn't have been hired for the job in the first place. He went up their without proper clothing or gloves. He had to know he needed those items. Even if just climbing to the base camp, you need proper equipment. It's very sad this man lost his life. All of the deaths on that mountain are sad, as well.

[@moniqueengleman873]

A Congo line on Everest.

[@nhmooytis7058]

🎯

[@Just.A.T-Rex]

The porters want, market, and exist well under their countries governing due to these climbs.

[@overzealouseuthanasiast9731]

Am grateful you mentioned the financial burden that contributes to decisions of people. Is sadly an overlooked factor in most cases.

[@SirenaSpades]

Dave Ramsey talks about this all the time.

[@janineroux2398]

Incredibly sad...especially his circumstances and how little he earned, the pressure for him to go further and the loss for his family

[@yarnpower]

I can’t believe how little those porters and sherpas get paid just to enable some wealthy person to reach a summit.

[@TatraScrambler]

There is a name for it: it's called capitalism. Supply and demand - the equilibrium market price. As long as there is someone willing to accept such price, that's what the employer is gonna pay them. If you live in a capitalist state you must be a pretty darn hypocrite for saying that. But yeah, it is disgusting. That's the world we live in.

[@darkprince56]

@@TatraScrambler I’m not saying it’s appalling but they get paid 20 a day….where as my eldest cousin & his wife together make ~29 _a month_ in communist Cuba. Just sayin’

[@bluejay9890]

Yeah, they should demand higher wages. The mountains are all clogged up with rich people wanting to check off their bucket list. Maybe if it cost even more to climb these mountains they wouldn't be so crowded.

[@nhmooytis7058]

Might seem like more if someone is from a poor country but us still wrong!

[@charshill2978]

Wealthy people who have never had to worry about their next meal or having a roof over their heads don't understand why anyone is poor

[@jimbobshambles]

It’s an extremely sad story. I hope he’s at peace now and I hope his mother is okay.

[@ivanasukjadic1423]

Why would his mother be okay? Silly comment. Of course she is not okay and much worse now that the son is gone

[@cryptnick_]

​@@ivanasukjadic1423Maybe it was poor wording, chill out.

[@Jesus.Fuckery]

@@cryptnick_*

[@cryptnick_]

@@Jesus.Fuckery make me, girl.

[@caderainier4052]

​@ivanasukjadic1423 Obviously they meant that they wished the best for his mother, but let's not let the benefit of the doubt get in the way of your self-righteous navel-gazing.

[@juniperwool]

This story made me cry...here's a desperate man working for pennies on probably one of the world's most dangerous jobs. I felt so much sorrow for him laying there trying to get help from those around him. Put yourself in his position. Try to imagine what he felt. He probably felt so much pain and so much helplessness as no one around him could or would help him.

[@Lemmon714_]

They are too high up to carry anyone. If Sherpas can't do it then no one can.

[@cindyl3297]

There is a reason why you shouldnt try to rescue a drowning person unless youre a life guard...

[@Hatbox948]

It is tragic. He left behind three sons and a sick mother. I doubt the village he hails from has any social services to make life easier for them.

[@juniperwool]

@@Lemmon714_ I understand, but it is still terribly sad. It's still a life gone.

[@ronald3836]

He would not have helped someone in danger at that height, either. He was not even equipped to help himself. The only reason why I can say with complete confidence that I would not have stepped over him is because I have ZERO inclination to ever climb a mountain.

[@VictoriaMarch13]

My former doctor actually passed on Everest in 2017. His body is still there. RIP Dr. Roland Yearwood

[@BetaBuxDelux]

You just left him there too? 😢

[@darksu6947]

You're a terrible patient. Why would you just leave him there? What the hecking heck man?

[@insanehippiehippieinsane3828]

​@@BetaBuxDeluxEvery person who climbs Everest and K2 knows that if you die on the mountain your body will stay there.

[@pandakk6998]

@@darksu6947are you serious?

[@VictoriaMarch13]

@@darksu6947 🤣🤣

[@Lady.B0420]

When you climb these types of mountains, if you can't get yourself up and down, do not expect anyone to risk their life to get you where you want to go. You are responsible for yourself in that environment. Good climbers know the risks and do not expect anyone else to be their responsibility.

[@josephstabile9154]

There is much wisdom in appreciating that expecting people to risk their lives on one's behalf is more often than not a futile expectation. That's why altruism & self-sacrifice are considered heroic, and medals are often given for such efforts.

[@fractalign]

I can’t think of bigger more selfish bunch of narcissists than mountaineers ! They risk their lives and the lives of others just so they can boast about something the rest of us couldn’t care a less about.

[@scottbrower9052]

And they litter everywhere.

[@glengrant3884]

Global divers are pretty much the same.

[@ANPC-pi9vu]

And the people they hire do all the real work of lugging the gear and setting the lines ahead of these tourists so that the tourists can get their selfies and bragging rights. We shouldn't even call them mountaineers. That term should be reserved for the shirpas.

[@jakeviolet2195]

Nobody has to be there who doesn't want to be. And they don't do it to impress normies. They do it to challenge themselves and impress their fellow mountaineers, who are very much interested in their exploits. It's no different from any other pointless recreation activity, except the stakes are higher.

[@valerierodger]

I don’t consider these high-paying commercial tourists to be mountaineers. Mountaineers are not a selfish bunch of narcissists - and they sure as hell wouldn’t leave a companion to die without exhausting every possible option for saving them.

[@ShrawanRegmi]

Sherpas are from Nepal. The word "Sherpa" doesn't mean a profession. Its the ethnicity of people in Nepal living at high altitude mountainous region who are physically superior in climbing mountains in extreme conditions.

[@ModernVintage31]

Thank you for stating this. I’ve been saying pretty much the same thing on other channels that have covered this death, and no one has acknowledged it. It’s a bit weird, really.

[@alisonmary1443]

Unacceptable said it all, you don't step over a dying man to reach your goal, he was putting his hand out to folk who passed him, did any stop to hold the hand that was reaching out for help. This is extremely sad.

[@sisi_zzz]

Utterly disgusting disregard for human life

[@Jessersadler]

Called Triage

[@jenanne31]

How tragic to lose your life for a $20 paycheck. Perhaps expeditions like this provide employment for many people in the area but the risk seems too great, particularly for the people who may not understand or be prepared for the dangers. Thanks for your excellent content, Dr. Grande!

[@oftin_wong]

The locals know better than anyone ...

[@shannonjaensch3705]

I was wondering how much the Sherpas got paid. I was doing my forklift licence training yesterday with a Nepal man who had moved to here in Australia 17 years ago. We were talking about all the deaths of climbers and he informed me of how many do including the sherpas. He made it clear that Sherpas do it as they like all other locals need the money to survive and have little choice. He didn't answer my question and hopes that they the sherpas got paid a decent amount of money tho. They should be paid exceptionally well for the risk/efforts and provided with the same necessary clothing/equipment as the climbers/clients by the climbers but it sadly appears that most who climb these mountains are very selfish and focussed on their own personal goal rather then the care for others.

[@prettyokandy230]

the fact that people that can afford to travel the world to try and climb this mountain only pay these guys that little is pretty gross tbh..

[@oftin_wong]

The Sherpas charge US $10,000 To rescue someone ..a climber

[@dickjohnson9582]

I watched a documentary on sherpas and they said their wages are relatively good. Making a whole nepal years salary in a couple months but still very dangerous

[@Mila_Brearey]

The "bottleneck" which is in the death zone, is where most lives are lost. It's due to regular avalanches, altitude sickness (causing hallucinations) and just the fact that K2 is almost vertical with nowhere to rest for a few minutes. Add to it hurticane-type winds, the inability to breathe, frostbite, exhaustion, etc. Everest & K2 are very different; however, death zone rescues on either mountain are not possible if you are incapacitated and can't help to get yourself down some very technically challenging vertical 4-5 storey cliffs likd on Everest. K2 is a vertical nightmare all the way. Msny people here just have no clue at all that mountaineers & sherpas follow strict rules, which apply to everyone starting at 8,000 meters & higher.

[@TatraScrambler]

Some voice of reason at last. Grandeur has no idea what he's talking about (not his first time). P.S. what a lovely angel on your avatar. You're not exactly horrible looking either ;)

[@sarahfox5379]

@@TatraScrambler Well that's a cringey comment if I ever did see one.

[@Torrque]

Voice of reason, yes… and then, definitely cringe the rest!

[@QJacPLo]

@@TatraScramblershe’ll never be into you bro

[@sarahfox5379]

@scotttillman01 What has that have to do with anything? Do scientists have to go to Mars to know anything about it? Do biologists have to personally travel down to the bottom of the ocean for them to have knowledge of what is down there?

[@robgrey6183]

Some thoughts from a mountaineer: -Dr. Grande references the attempted rescue of Art Gilkey from high on K2 in 1953. I would suggest that this incident shows rather the near impossibility of such a rescue. Gilkey succumbed to illness, probably pulmonary edema, at the high camp at 7800 m. His team, which had been stuck at that camp waiting for a storm to subside, immediately abandoned the summit attempt, even though the weather was perfect for the summit, and coordinated a rescue. What follows was an epic of mountaineering, as his team fought storms and avalanches to get the helpless Gilkey down. Gilkie was swept off the mountain, where he had been anchored while the team attempted to make camp in a blizzard. The team got off the mountain with serious frostbite injuries. This was a highly experienced, cohesive group of mountaineers led by one of the pillars of American mountaineering. They behaved selflessly, and could not save Gilkey. They barely escaped with their lives. Several of the team went on record with the opinion that Gilkey, to save his friends who would not leave him, undid his anchors and fell to his death. There is a small, beautiful peak named Gilkey Tower between the South Teton and Nez Perce, which I have climbed. So, rescue is not so easy, at that altitude, in those conditions. Those who have never experienced the brain fog and fatigue of high altitude, the biting cold of oxygen-starved limbs, and the stress of dealing with exposure and objective hazards inherent in a route like that, or who have never spent a prolonged period camping in the snow and hanging on to wind-rattled tent poles, are of course entitled to their opinion. What is that opinion worth? Another observation: I've spent some time working with Sherpas in their homeland in Nepal. They work on K2. Sherpas are Tibetan Buddhists. The porters on K2 are Pakistani Muslims. I would not discount the possibility of language and cultural differences contributing to this accident.

[@ModernVintage31]

Thank you for your contribution to this discussion. It seems like many of the commenters here are forgetting that even professional rescuers, for instance the US Coast Guard, have specific parameters within they will attempt rescue. And if a victim’s situation falls outside those parameters and attempted rescue will threaten the lives of the rescuers, they don’t do it. There’s a cascading affect, as you pointed out. Attempted rescue in impossible situations puts MULTIPLE other people at high risk. Thank you also for acknowledging that Mr. Hassan was not Sherpa, and that Sherpa are a distinct ethnic group. Mr. Hassan certainly deserves to be seen as an individual human being, of Pakistani descent, versus being lumped into what many people incorrectly believe is a job title.

[@davepirtle9790]

I had heard about the porter but not the part about people climbing over him. I would need more Info but it sounds like they were in or close to the death zone. It's well understood truth that in the death zone you are on your own. The rescues typically occur below the death zone. Also for clarity K2 is not the most deadly mountain to climb . That's either Annapurna or

[@molassescricket6663]

This is the opinion of a human being, and someone who spent nearly two decades caring for the sick, wounded and dying. I would want nothing to do with people who think and behave in such a degenerate, despicable manner.

[@bobsterclause342]

look, your run gives you this obstical, then that's just bad rdm you fail to help you cheat and you fail your run, you are disqualified and banned from future attempts if hurt someone furthermore, if someone dies, you need to be banned froma ll recorsds cheating and manslaughter if you cheat, you don't go on the leaderboards, you are just a cheater no records, nad you can never compete again, as you are just a cheater this is what needs to happen

[@tim27scissorfists]

@@bobsterclause342Are you OK? lol

[@Paintbl99]

This is tragic and is such a perfect exemplification of current society - people are more concerned with their status and vanity then they are of the actual lives of other human beings

[@asegal4677]

Okay, but with a 23% death rate on K2 "tragedy" is rather common. Hard for me to use the word "tragedy" under these conditions.

[@danielwarwick8086]

Human beings have no business being in places like K2, death valley, Mariana's trench, the moon, mars, etc. If you go to these places you need to be aware of these risks and prepare for the worst because at a 23% fatality rate you are guaranteed to hit some road-bumps. Mohammed didn't prepare his death is on him.

[@OmarAbdulMalikDHEdMPASPACPAPro]

"The opportunity to unnecessarily endanger their lives, was passing quickly."😐 Your dry humor is awesome.😅👍🏽 May the hearts of the remaining friends and family be granted solace.😔🤲🏽🙏🏽♥️

[@nazer9]

I think the biggest issue with these deaths, especially this past Everest season, is stemming from regulatory bodies allowing far to many people to climb the mountain(s) at once and far to many inexperienced and unprepared climbers. Its a dangerous combination thats why so many have died this past climbing season.

[@SueRosalie]

yes. China limits numbers on their side of Everest and requires climbers to qualify by having already climbed another 8,000m peak. The Nepalese govt has much less strict requirements and they need the money from the climbing permits, so Everest is overcrowded on the Nepalese route.

[@jakewilson7112]

fully agree. Its the dangerous mix of ignorant people and profits.

[@artmallory970]

*too

[@PerlaOC]

Although the rescue attempts failed, I can clearly see who the heroes are in this case. Those who tried to help him, so he didn’t feel alone, even if he died waiting, he died knowing someone cared. So heartbreaking, truly, heartbreaking. This case reminded me of the Nutty Potty Cave death case, which kept me crying for days over the heart-wrenching, agonizing death of the young man. 💔 Edit: miss spelled “Nutty Putty Cave” (correct name)

[@maxw5900]

Your paragraphing is also heartbreaking.

[@PerlaOC]

@@maxw5900 ?

[@th3unmaker]

@@maxw5900 I find the name 'Nutty Potty Cave' to be more disturbing still.

[@ranman7688]

@@th3unmaker The Nutty Putty cave story is nightmare fuel.

[@th3unmaker]

@@ranman7688 Well, if it is "Nutty Putty' and not "Nutty Potty' i'm a bit less horrified so far.

[@jean-marcknight8816]

My final though would be : $20 a day while the cost to climb is $15000 and above

[@wandarose9285]

$30,000+. The more you pay, the more sherpa support and creature confirms you get.

[@paulajohnson139]

There was a rescue effort. According to what you said, Daniel and 2 workers pulled the Sherpa up to the ledge. After that the Sherpa couldn't move (very important) or talk (less important). Harila comes off slightly better than previously thought. However, I don't believe for one minute she didnt know if the Sherpas doing the roping had been lost/injured in that "avalanche" as radio contact woipd have occurred and uodated her.

[@calvinsmyth]

The majority of deaths on K2 happen at the bottleneck. It is steep, icy, and prone to falling rock. In books and YT shows about K2, the bottleneck is always mentioned as a place of most concern/danger for all climbers. It is not uncommon for climbers to lessen their load, including leaving behind their O2 at base camp to make it through the bottleneck to the summit. Also, the health status of the climbers vary. Not all are feeling great and rested, but all will push themselves to get to the summit with little reserve for anything else. In general, most deaths occur during the descent. Add in the weight of taking down a person and the odds greatly increase that more deaths will follow. This has occurred many times. If the body is frozen it will be heavier than the dead weight of an unconscious person as ice will accumulate on a dead body. That is the main reason that dead bodies are not routinely retrieved. Rescuing or retrieving is a concerted effort. Good planning equals more safety and one bossman is the limit. There are many stories of climbers being left to die alone, so the porter being left behind is not a simple case of entitlement regarding the climbers. On the mountain, it comes down to everybody for themselves for a variety of reasons. The main reason that any company would go above and beyond for a client is because they want more clients. Some have literally had their climbers carried along the way and to the summit by sherpas. Catering to more weekend climbers is big business and there is great competition to get such customers. If the climbing groups are private, it's best to be amongst close friends if you need help, because even in small groups where everyone knows one another, often egos clash, and that is how some climbers remain on the mountain for all time. There is often a lot of drama on Mountain Mamma. The big celebration at the end of this particular climb is a case in point. It was in poor taste, but not at all out of the ordinary.

[@ANPC-pi9vu]

Fuck that. They should have abandoned the climb to help get him down the mountain. He was alive and could have been saved if more than two people had bothered trying. Also these climbers should be called tourists, not mountaineers, since these locals they treat as disposable do the real mountaineering and risk taking so these egotists can get their selfies and bragging rights.

[@glow1815]

Well said

[@veganjeliza8518]

Yes, the bottleneck is no place for a porter with little K2 experience and lacking proper gear for climbing and warmth. He was doomed at that point.

[@zebeart8808]

Mountain climbers are cruel, selfish, and filthy people.

[@happyinparis]

Then climbers have a creepy, self-centered way of thinking.

[@michelleobrien6996]

The primary issue based on your explanation is that he was not given adequate equipment for the work he was given. For that the company is responsible and should compensate his family significantly. Imagine the consequence for the company if he were a paying climber and not given adequate equipment. His lack of experience is secondary as he had experience working at lower altitude and everyone who works at the higher altitude would have a first time for doing so.

[@thefisherking78]

I could never step over a hurt person just to check a box. But I also don't have the motivation to climb mountains like this. It's hard to put myself in the shoes of anyone who was there.

[@axv95]

not just hard but impossible. at over 27000 ft on a mountain like K2 you’d need to change your underwear every 3 minutes climbing without supplemental oxygen is a death wish.

[@jb-xc4oh]

You would if your life depended on it.

[@junioradult6219]

Sry but you would be the first dead body lying next to him. You dont know the mountain or even the area of the mountain this happened on

[@housemana]

it's "hard to put myself in the shoes of anyone who was there".... are you seriously trying to fence sit in such a quandry? jfc. terminally online oblivious fool. "motivation" does not trump morality. period.

[@cockoffgewgle4993]

Yes you could and you would. It was literally the only option.

[@thomasmartin7816]

I've been through some horrendous road marches, I've had pulmonary edema. I've gotten hypothermia, never all at once. You reach a point when it's one foot in front of the other, and praying you can keep going. It's survival mindset. Anyone on K2 was enduring all that and much, much more. I also know that anyone climbing the mountain that doesn't need to for economic reasons is a self-involved egotistical ass who is all me-me-me. they were already that sort BEFORE they even got into the survival mindset.

[@kayjay7585]

But the first half of your comment (which I agree with) means that anyone, not just egotistical asshats, would be in the survival mindset. However, the people who feel like they need to climb K2 are probably significantly elevated in the traits associated with narcissistic personality as in clinical psychology, which is not the same as a lot of people understand narcissism. However, we can't look into those folks heart, so I personally, I give them the benefit of doubt and do not assume them to be uncaring, unpleasant or acting egotistically.

[@JaxonSmithers]

What happened to him is not new. It has happened on Everest too.

[@ANPC-pi9vu]

The porters and shirpas seem disposable to these people. Two colegues of his were not enough to bring him down the mountain, but any of those many shirpas and climbers who went over him could have volunteered, and they could have had that six person team. It really is dispicable how these so called 'mountaineers' act so accomplished when they had these local hires doing all the real work and taking risks with less personal gear so these fucking tourists can get their bragging rights.

[@traceystewart4257]

@@kayjay7585 i think the issue is that this poor person who passed was perceived as not on the same human life grade as the people who stepped over him.

[@KatJ3st]

Absolutely

[@jodiearrington]

I really appreciate how much research goes into your analysis of all these cases. Just brilliant and thank you so much for this content. I use to think climbing was on my bucket list. I don't think that any more. Way too dangerous. Thank you Dr. Grande, as usual, for your brilliant analysis, research, knowledge and the content of this channel.

[@antoniotula262]

There are mountains that are far easier to climb from what I've read. More of a trek or hike than a climb. Don't completely abandon that bucket list yet!

[@M.May195]

@@antoniotula262 agreed. You can climb say snowdon in the UK very safely and the views are amazing at the top. It’s not climbing Everest but it is a lot safer and very rewarding. (That doesn’t mean there’s no risk at all. Make sure to train and prepare before doing any type of hiking, trekking or mountaineering)

[@TatraScrambler]

Research? Come on. His knowledge of mountaineering and its moral dilemmas is less than superficial, and yet he still made his pathetic attempt at moral judgement.

[@bobbobertson7568]

Most of the complainers can't even walk down the street without getting winded, yet these Heroes think they would be able to give effective aid at 28,000 feet under treacherous conditions.

[@soxpeewee]

I might not be able to help in that situation but I'd like to think I would have tried

[@arthurneddysmith]

15:27 On a mountain that has up to 25% fatalities, you really expected people to attempt a rescue that was "practically impossible," according to you? You're just hedging your bets here. The reality is that each and every person who attempts such a climb takes their own lives into their own hands. They should not expect others to risk their lives to save them. The time to save yourself is before you climb.

[@jackwalls7170]

This has all the ingredients for a Agatha Christie novel. A bunch of people that don’t know one another all climb a mountain together 🤣

[@jeynjohnston8085]

If you write it, I'll read it.

[@jayjablunov4697]

Read, "The Eiger Sanction." :)

[@carpediem6431]

I’ll help with the opening sentence for the book….. “It was a dark and stormy night…….” Suggestions: It was the: A) porter with the crampons B) wealthy doctor with the faulty carabiner C) influencer with a frayed rope D) all of the members through callous disregard of human life

[@katherinekirkhope9399]

Imagine hiking over bodies to get somewhere where a lot of other people have been.

[@carfincap]

God will not forgive the fireworks.

[@francislarv3012]

The Brazilian photographer deserves praise 👍🏻

[@frankarouet]

At this altitude, one step is like a small run for someone in shape. Carrying someone is like a marathon. It's a given that at such high altitude, if you can't move, no one can help you. You might have a few cases of people saved. But it's not generally the case. It's rather exceptionally heroic from those who save others. Also, from the picture, you see they would have had to climb with him, not just go down. My hunch is, as you're saying, that it was not possible. This said, if you're going to leave people to die, up there, I personally think you have to be very insensible as a human being, to dedicate yourself to such an activity. Very often, on summits, people even distinguish directions by the sightings of leftover bodies. I'd never have the heart to do this. I guess it takes many kinds to make a world.

[@SF-fb6lv]

True, for me even at 'only' 20,000 feet, each step (with a 50 lb backpack) took 8 breaths...

[@frankarouet]

@@miesvaillanykyisyytta3252 That's pretty much what I'm saying. But you still leave them to die. No matter how you turn this around. I could not do that myself. Besides, how would you know what God wants?

[@junioradult6219]

​@@frankarouetif you herd a stranger screaming as they were burning to death ingulfed in flames would you rush strait into the flames to save them?

[@frankarouet]

@@junioradult6219 Have you even read what I wrote?

[@ITR1329]

Your fake virtue signaling is adorable. Every climber who gets on one of the 14 >8000 meter peaks knows they have a good chance of not coming home. Should there just be no mountain climbing because some dude who eats tortured animals his entire life “has a heart”. Give me a break, you have less virtue than you think.

[@ProfessorMonstru]

Thank you for your well-reasoned thoughts on this. Sadly, people with way too much money and not nearly enough sense will throw said money at all sorts of stupid and dangerous stuff, and poor village dwellers get caught up in the dangerous schemes at the cost of their lives for a measly few dollars a day. The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach, to be completely honest.

[@Jenny-nz8fb]

Agreed. $20 a day for a high chance of dying is disgusting exploitation.

[@dawnwang1558]

I love dr. Grande's humor regarding rich people in there incomprehensible need to risk their lives

[@tink_a]

Imagine the porter's family. ❤ The desperation over his death and the worry their future is immense.

[@annaf3915]

A climber that was in the area at the time of the accident but didn't attempt to climb has started a GoFundMe for the family. He was on tv here in Austria so he's legit

[@falconeshield]

All for 20 dollars

[@KHH595]

They know that career is extremely dangerous. If he had a sick mother to care for he shouldn’t having been climbing the world deadliest mountain

[@bobsterclause342]

i think if you don't help people, then that is bad rdm and you still fail your run you get dsiqualified like this you get banned from future attempts and if you kill someone you are the type of cheater who can't be put in any wrold records because you are just a cheater and an sasshole everyone else has bad luck they respond to, you ignore it, you are cheating and not better, just a

[@grantlarsson9173]

Never will I ever climb a mountain like K2 or Everest. The “dead zone” is a thing for a reason. Everyone knows in the dead zone you don’t stop for anything, it could mean your death. Even if you reach the peak, many die on the descent. Scary stuff .

[@deankruse2891]

You do stop for plenty of things in the death zone, including sleeping and drinking water, and changing your oxygen bottles, which make the death zone a non-factor.

[@nhmooytis7058]

I won’t climb Everest because I get panic attacks and nosebleeds standing on a chair to change a light bulb 😢

[@GarethTiedt]

@@deankruse2891You clearly have no idea dude. Sleeping at 8000+ meters is still considered incredibly risky, even with oxygen. Changing bottles when not over exerted is easy. It's a few seconds. Trying to rescue someone with planned oxygen capacity, while over exerting yourself, uses far more oxygen than planned and thus carried.

[@somebody701]

May he rest in peace. That’s really sad but I’m not surprised that climbers who don’t care much about their own life, or leaving behind families, would walk over him.

[@wpeniche]

Pretty much this.

[@michelleobrien6996]

Old School climbers would be less likely to do this. They left behind families with greater risk to their own lives, but their connections with each other would have been stronger with no "traffic jam" issues. By comparison think how people respond to a traffic jam and how self centred their thoughts are when sometimes the cause of the traffic jam is a fatal car crash or a suicide.

[@Lemmon714_]

Sherpas said that there was nothing that could be done. Would you prefer 20 others try to save him and have some of them die too?

[@carfincap]

Just a 2023 every day heart warmer! Spoiled white brats in the West. I was lucky and blessed with opps but always had a heart. There IS a statistically significant drop in empathy among studied of a spectrum of individuals in past three decades.

[@salla6534]

@@Lemmon714_no just proceed climbing over a poor man dying and don’t help don’t attend to him just focus on yourself and your achievements, because simply you don’t know him ,wtf how can anyone celebrate while a man is left injured behind ! what bunch of modern day savages I mean even animals don’t leave their own

[@redjasper9458]

Should we expect people to value someone else's life when they put their own life at such risk? Honestly these people aren't like the rest.

[@stevenreiser2599]

I climbed for about 26 years. In the Death Zone above 26,000 feet, every person is trying to survive. Assisting others is NOT an option - attempting just kills more people

[@margodphd]

Unfortunately, that's the truth. But, dying in the death zone doesn't take long, especially without oxygen- not so long you cannot hold the hand of someone dying until they loose consciousness.

[@andrewtaynton3402]

Thanks Doc. A well researched and thorough analysis. A real treat to listen to.

[@StAlphonsusHasAPosse]

Anyone who wants to learn more about this subject should read "Into Thin Air" by John Krakauer. He was on Everest when things went bad. It's a great book

[@kevinpatrickcarey3741]

he wasnt happy with the movie Everest he felt they made him look like to much of a dick

[@evelynwaugh4053]

Yes, it is. He's a very good writer. Under the Banner of Heaven and Into the Wild were also good.

[@okjhbk74]

Krakauer was part of the problem, He was hired to write about a summit atempt and decided to go for the summit, bad move. He did not help with rescue because he was toast from going to the summit with lack of experiance. Anatoli Boukreev wrote the book about this climb and he was on it. He recieved the highest award from the usa alpine club for his behavour and puts Kakauer to shame.

[@okjhbk74]

Krakauer was part of the problem, He was hired to write about a summit atempt and decided to go for the summit, bad move. He did not help with rescue because he was toast from going to the summit with lack of experiance. Anatoli Boukreev wrote the book about this climb and he was on it. He recieved the highest award from the usa alpine club for his behavour and puts Kakauer to shame.

[@purpleslurple5149]

He is a great writer, but after reading his version you need to do some research to get a fuller view of what actually happened, and understand he had bias in the telling of the story.

[@jennifer1996xxxx]

Dr. Grande, you really are the best. Thank you for always being so insightful and kind ❤

[@mistressmozart]

I get that conditions were such that it was probably not possible to get him down, but it took 3 hours for him to die. He reached out to people as they stepped over him. I cannot imagine the callousness of such an action. Kudos to the man who tried to help him and give oxygen. Could no one abandon their narcissistic goal of reaching the top to hold his hand and be with him while he died?

[@ProfessionalJerry]

No point in killing yourself over a man who's already going to die anyways. Get educated 🤡

[@philippebyrnes1213]

A tragedy fueled by wealthy thrill seekers. The first party (Kristin and her photographer) seem much less culpable than the nameless climbers who didn't try to help the poor man. The altitude alone would have killed the porter within a short time without oxygen and warm gear; he was betrayed by his employer as much as anything. Nonetheless, those who later celebrated are the epitome of wealthy dilettantes and I hope they meet their judgment one day. A very balanced and fair exposition, Dr.Grande. Thanks for the presentation.

[@derkeheath5172]

I was raised to believe that there is a special place in hell for the rich. I wish I still believed in hell, because that would be SOME small comfort in this greedy world.

[@eljanrimsa5843]

@@derkeheath5172 Not really. What do you get out of it if they suffer?

[@milehighgambler]

@@eljanrimsa5843what do you get out of forgiving them, and continue letting them burn this world to the ground? Let me guess “God will sort it all out” 😂😂😂

[@eljanrimsa5843]

@@milehighgambler I don't believe in gods. I believe people are people, rich or poor. Fight them, make the world better, I'm all for it. But what's the point in letting anybody suffer in all eternity? That's sick.

[@milehighgambler]

@@eljanrimsa5843 because those are the same pieces of trash have have ended millions of live, exploited millions of lives, and displaced millions of lives. They more than deserve it

[@robinette64]

Loved your honesty regarding people’s decision to climb these mountains. Spot on!

[@mr559]

I would be interested in seeing Dr. Grande cover more mountaineering and cave diving incidents. After having watched so many videos on those topics, it's safe to say that the conditions, split-second decisions and panic really makes people do things unimaginable.

[@jessadelix7415]

I second this

[@PotHead98]

When Nima Purja did the same record he helped multiple people who were stuck and one dude even died in his arms when Nims refused to leave him and stayed with him on the mountain all night thru a storm and gave him all his oxygen. The man died in his arms but he tried. This lady is horrible

[@bobbyboucher3626]

Thank you Dr. Grande for always including the extenuating circumstances of the protagonist. In this case, money (lack thereof) was most likely the deciding factor in his decision to climb knowing he was not fully equipped. Perhaps he would have been too proud to accept it, but these hikers had the money to say, “Hey! $20 or $100 is not worth you risking your life to pay bills; stay off the mountain until you have the right gear.” I’d like to think I would have made that offer knowing his potential danger and life circumstance.

[@kingdele01]

I always like how balanced your analyses are! - What happened really was a bad look - But it might have been impossible for the climber to save him.

[@ANPC-pi9vu]

They could have tried instead of pushing. Funny how the only rescues you hear of are of these fucking tourists and not the shirpas and porters who do the real mountaineering but are treated as disposable.

[@ct5625]

They still celebrated their "achievement" as though this man never existed.

[@ronald3836]

Fake outrage is really strong on the internet. People don't think things through if instead they can be a hero keyboard warrior.

[@Shushus-cz9lk]

I heard it’s like a understood low key agreement of not helping if this happens when you are high enough up. Bc of the dangers of just attempting to help.

[@patosan8120]

Excellent your analysis, probably one of the best untill now, you explain quite clear details that many do not get withouth condemning or acussing anyone . Tragic death of a poor man earning some few dollars risking his life for sport hobby "adventurers"...

[@kenrik2105]

All these high mountain climbers realize that if they get I’ll or injured; they’re probably going to die because it’s too dangerous (and pointless) to bring them down to base camps. I’ve seen videos of climbers walking past dead frozen bodies, and climbers succumbing to the elements.

[@laurie113]

Dad is one thing still alive is another

[@mrazik131]

@@laurie113 so you would give him your clothes and oxygen bottle, right???

[@jsmithsemper4848]

I couldn’t do it. I would take our alive & half alive asses right back down that mountain.

[@ANPC-pi9vu]

Except other climbers have been rescued, and higher up. But hey, this guy was just their pack mule so why even try, right? These tourists paying these locals to do the real work for them so they can take the glory are disguesting.

[@dantevxv1501]

@@ANPC-pi9vu so if they are tourists they would of all died trying, maybe pakistan could try an uphold some kind of acceptable safety standards.

[@joytrujillo9447]

I would like to think that hypothermia set in and he just went to sleep. Prayers for his family. I'm sure he'll be greatly missed.

[@melanieskeldon6289]

There was no consideration for this man's life. Whomever "hired' him knew he did not have the equipment to be at that altitude.

[@valerierodger]

Yep. When his employer was asked why they haven’t provided him with equipment they stated that they had given him money to buy equipment. 🙄 capitalism on the mountain is disgusting.

[@verucasalt9182]

Apparently he was working for another team not fir the team that was trying to break the record.

[@morticiaheisenberg9679]

He was told several times to go back because he was not prepared. He stubbornly stayed. No matter what his reason was, at that point, it was all his fault. I get that they still wanted to celebrate. But they could have taken a moment to be respectful of the deceased. They do seem pretty cold about it. It was his fault though, and he knew the risks of his job. RIP Mohammad.

[@ronald3836]

He was told to go back but did not listen.

[@dantevxv1501]

@@valerierodger so he had been aware he needed it, paid to get it and snubbed the idea to keep the cash. Lucky he never hurt anyone else.

[@kamaltahir6440]

I remember seeing a post about this, that he passed away on k2 but never heard these details. Thanks for the great video on such a sad situation.

[@elliebellie7816]

I grew up in Colorado climbing high mountains. Not K2, but still, most of the 14ers. It always amazed me at how poorly prepared most mountain climbers are. Many showed up for a day's climb in flipflops, short shorts and maybe a sandwich and bottle of water and acted like they were on a playground. I can't count the number of times these people had to be helped down due to altitude or broken bones.

[@morticiaheisenberg9679]

I wouldn't have helped them. Stupidity should be painful. I know that they were told in the beginning, probably by several people, that you cannot hike like that. But stupid, self entitled asshats will do what they want AND give attitude. In AZ, they have a "stupid motorists law". Stupid people that drive around barriers to try crossing flood waters. When they get stuck, the news crew comes out to shame them on local news stations. AND the stupid motorists has to pay for the rescue. I 100% agree with this law and it should apply to a lot more situations. Like flop flop hikers, lol.

[@CalopsitaVanderbilt1911]

Exactly. I’m from Switzerland, and there are tourists who try to climb the Alps with flip flops.

[@evilarchconservative2952]

Flip-flops and shorts...SIGH...these are people who really deserve a Darwin Award.

[@sluttymctits4496]

I noticed this, too. I spent the summer in Summit County last year (will be moving to CO permanently next year), and there I developed my life-long love of nature into a sheer obsession with climbing peaks. I haven't hit a 14er yet (I'm not one to push my limits, but I know I'm now ready for the easier 14ers) but have done multiple 12 and 13ers. Even on those peaks, I saw so many people treating the scrambles at the top like a walk in the park. No pack/food/water on a 6+hr hike/climb, improper clothing and footwear, no map/GPS/knowledge of the trail, etc. Who thinks that open-toed sandals are a good idea on loose rock and high exposure sections? Maybe I'm just overly cautious, but I'd rather be overprepared and successfully finish my hike than unprepared and risk injury, death, or needing rescue.

[@LIBERTYSINCURSION]

But there was a rescue attempt, right? I mean, he was hanging upside down after the fall and it took them hours to get him back to a position where they were able to even assess his physical situation. Beyond that I'll say that an old college friend of mine is into mountain climbing. In fact he never shuts the hell up about it. Anyways he always says that if someone is injured during their attempts their goal is no longer to reach the summit but to get them off the mountain. But he also says sometimes that's just impossible to do though.

[@1984KaliA]

seems like two persons tried to help but the others just wanted to reach the summit. and that's the point, they didn''t change their goal like they should have. even if it was impossible to rescue this guy, they should have tried. or at least should have aborted their climb. and then celebrate afterwards that they have broken some record?! that is just disgusting in my opinion and shows how little empathy they had for this guy :(

[@jorgepeppertrees6612]

I have been binge watching Everest death documentaries, and if one can’t walk, there’s no saving a person. Not in a location like that definitely. As a leader, there is another level of mental fortitude required that we in our regular lives don’t. Not me 😂

[@Emm325]

@@1984KaliAI’m not saying the climber was right, but do you even have any idea what the record was?!? Climbing ALL the highest, most dangerous peaks in the minimum time, which also has a lot to to with weather, permits, governments, etc. watch the Netflix documentary 12. Peaks, I believe it is, the only person to do this before is an amazing climber from Nepal, it’s a HUGE ordeal, had it been just that mountain I doubt they would’ve kept on climbing. However, during the other climber’s “tour” he actually ended up rescuing another climber (almost died doing it) and he was an amazing human, with almost superhuman strength and breathing abilities compared to even your fittest humans, do some research on the backstory before throwing out a feeble comment. Google is great for that.

[@junioradult6219]

​@@1984KaliAlet me guess you have zero exp😂.

[@brucerorty4014]

@@1984KaliA Read K2: The Savage Mountain by Charles Houston, M.D. and Bob Bates for the 1953 mountaineering ethos on K2, and why the team tried to save their stricken mate despite the high risk the entire team would perish. Decades later, Dr. Houston acknowledged that the team's overall group survival might have taken precedence over trying to save a teammate whose attempted rescue would lead to 7 deaths, not one.

[@lindas5964]

After reading “Into Thin Air” several years ago, I got the impression there is almost a trance like state these people get into in order to reach the summit.

[@ericf7063]

Hypoxemia also helps.

[@mikewypasek8855]

“Summit fever”

[@cassienorman6275]

I love the comment where you said the climbers need a more ludicrous chance of dying rather than a high probability that was great. I love your dark humor. I needed a good laugh, thanks Dr. Grande.🤣😍

[@explainyourself6757]

And people call me a loser because I play video games. I dont got a 25% chance of dying.

[@user-zp3oz7op6w]

If all you do is play video games then that is bad. But, if you have a balanced life then don't worry about judgmental people.

[@palmtrees2420]

Wow, 2 of my favorite things on youtube (Dr.Grande and K2 climbing) in one video? Nice. Before watching this video I must say that once you get near the summit in the death zone its pretty much impossible to safely save someone else.

[@thesisypheanjournal1271]

Elite mountaineers tend to be callous anyway. On Everest, corpses of dead climbers are actually treated as landmarks.

[@Lemmon714_]

Well you should go up there and carry them down. You could show the Sherpas that it CAN be done and it really isn't every man for himself at high altitude. What do you think they should do with the bodies??

[@thesisypheanjournal1271]

@@Lemmon714_ I know that the bodies are pretty much part of the mountain once the person dies. It just can't help but leave you a bit calloused to turn corpses into landmarks. Not evil, just callous.

[@darcydistefano363]

@@Lemmon714_ cover them up....start with Green Boots and Sleeping Beauty

[@rogergummer5173]

So sad. Best of luck to his family to carry on.

[@donnahelm2979]

Reminds me of the true story book Into thin Air about an everest expedition, one guy got left for dead like twice but kept showing up and survived! Very good book. Helped me to understand how truly dangerous climbing can be.

[@faerie1599]

.... Touching the Void's good as well...........

[@st-ex8506]

I have been a climber in my youth... although an alpine one , and I have no experience with the extreme altitudes of the Himalayas. However, I had to take down an injured friend from an altitude of only 3500 m (ca. 12'000 ft), in a time when we had no cellphone to call for a rescue chopper,. That was incredibly physically taxing and extremely dangerous for our whole team. Doing the same at around 8'000m on K2 seems to me like an impossible feat, most likely to end up in another accident! The behavior of some other climbers may well have been callous (although his team seems to have tried their best), but the decision to abandon this poor guy to his fate was probably the wisest one. There are around 200 bodies on Everest, that are for the most part unrecoverable... and, as said, Everest is not K2. The public just can't imagine how tough that environment is... as mentioned, I have some experience, and I still can't really fathom how brutal K2 is. It is too easy to watch a video (and a very partial one at that) from the comfort of one's sofa, with zero idea of the exact circumstances, and get all offended over it!

[@diemes5463]

Of course it's dangerous, but it's just a pointless hobby, that doesn't negate the need for empathy for our fellow man.

[@tomk3732]

I brought a climber down from 5500m and it was not bad at all. Russian guides were very strong and I had hard time going in the back directing the stricken climber due to their speed. Also on a near by mountain a Polish climber lost his legs on 7000m ridge - his partner tried to carry him but the up and down ridge was too much. A 7 man team from Iran abandomed their summit bid and got them down.

[@st-ex8506]

@@tomk3732 So, 7 Iranians, plus the injured guy's partner = 8 people to bring successfully one down from 7000m. I'll buy that ratio... and it was not K2... BTW, kudos to the Iranian team for having done what they did! In your personal experience, you were also several... having "very strong" professional guides, to carry down one injured climber. In the experience which happened to me, we were only two (seasoned mountaineers, but no professional) to bring down our injured partner... and that proved to be hell... even at a considerably lower altitude.

[@simonjones2645]

Non climbers will never understand! .....

[@st-ex8506]

@@mrfake675 The guy who died in the mentioned video was explicitly NOT a sherpa, and should never have been there in the first place as he had neither the experience nor the equipment for it! Sherpas are experienced mountaineers and are making a living, and a very good living at that for Nepal, from mountain climbing. Mountain guides are also putting their lives in danger to protect their clients in the Alps, and certainly in the Rockies, too... and they LOVE their job, I can assure you! And yes, some die... every year, accidents happen! Yes, mountaineering is a dangerous sport... and becomes extreme in the Himalayas; but there are many other extreme sports... ocean sailing comes to mind, where you risk your life, and can be responsible for that of your crew. So, don't criticize from the comfort of your sofa, without knowing anything of what makes a certain "world" tick! BTW, don't choke on a potato chip... that can be dangerous, too!

[@klaus9688]

The first neutral and rational analysis of this case! Thank you so much!!

[@Gundus1000]

You are doing a fair job in describing the situation.

[@deafahrenbruch1055]

The first report I saw was upsetting. However, there's always more to a story that can't be compressed into a quick soundbite. It's still upsetting to me, for several reasons, but I understand it more thoroughly now. Thank you, Dr. Todd.

[@subirbakshi6156]

This is the saddest story I’ve heard and it truly breaks my heart. Having climbed in the Himalayas know that Hillary’s 1953 expedition of Everest had 400 porters and sherpas as crew! Disposable goods? Blind ambition, or man’s greatest challenge? I don’t judge the reasons. I have also been in a near death precarious situation with frostbite and I carry the scars to this day and am lucky to be alive to say that I met the best and most caring fellow climbers (no I never saw them before in my life) but I know what angels truly look like and I know what three to four people working together can do on the riskiest of slopes! I myself helped a fellow climber who had lost a crampon on the Hillary step and had fallen below dangling from the ropes at 28,839 ft so I know what is possible (yes in the death zone, even). Truly heartbreaking. The worlds biggest achievement is being able to help your fellow human in their time of need. None of us is perfect.

[@stine7144]

You helping a man with his cramp-ons and someone carrying this man down from the bottle neck of K2 is not excactly the same. People stayed with him for hours, and gave him O2 until they ran dry (had enough to get themselves down safely). They knew he was a goner, but kept him company til he died.

[@subirbakshi6156]

My deepest appreciation for all those that helped this man in his time of need. 🙏. Who can be helped and who is a hopeless case is best assessed by a high altitude medical expert. I can tell you this from experience, the only thing that can reverse HAPE or HACE is being brought down to a lower altitude, immediately. And if it wasn’t clear, I was brought down 620 vertical feet on a fixed line vertical that would be considered near impossible. All we can do is try.

[@danielch6662]

​@@subirbakshi6156 if you ever meet your rescuers again, asked them if they would have tried it if your accident happened at the place where this guy died.

[@sydneyfairbairn3773]

I do not understand people putting themselves in harm's way. They have families that need them.

[@ericf7063]

I don't get it either and I'm a hiker. When it gets to that level, it's no longer a pastime.

[@oil_painted_dessert]

Just came from another video made by this guy about an Everest climber where y’all were in agreement she should’ve been left, because “serves her right” with her level of experience. And suddenly everyone’s on the moral high ground in this comments section. I have whiplash

[@RowntreeRobin]

I really appreciate how Dr. Todd Grande is able to get to the point of the matter! I love this guy.

[@Illtakeamoodringtogoplease]

WOW! My fellow humans never cease to baffle me!

[@annalisegiovanni7032]

Hello Dr. Grande❤ Thank you for the new video! Climbing a mountain is such a crazy thought to me! Everything looks so scary & unsafe. I'm very curious to hear what your opinion about this is🤩

[@sensiblecrime7699]

Lung disease runs in my family. These people volunteer to have blue lips and labored breathing. I just do not understand.

[@UnderTheShadowOfHisWings]

Yep.... Just went on a Prednisone prescription for about 10 days. So I know about the breathing issues. If I see a person short of breath on TV I can "feel" it

[@sensiblecrime7699]

@@UnderTheShadowOfHisWings I hope you are better soon!

[@UnderTheShadowOfHisWings]

@sensiblecrime7699 Thank You 😊

[@sartoaj]

People thought this incident was a moral failure? I've watched dozens of people drive right around fatal wrecks. No stopping. No rendering aid. Just me, trying to comfort the dying.

[@D1it4FN]

Comparing the possibility of rescue attempts in the death zone between K2 and Everest is problematic. Unless you were talking about Everest's North ridge route, which is much more dangerous then the relative stroll up the southeast Ridge, a rescue operation from the bottleneck is virtually impossible. The altitude is less relevant than is the degree of difficulty in the terrain