Lizardmen vs Warriors of Chaos Warhammer The Old World Battle Report

[@Sealdog]

Lizardman main here - loved the battle!

[@jacktowle3664]

Love to see the honor of my lizardmen defended, they are a really solid fun faction, skunks are probably the best skirmishers point for point in the game. With all of that said they really struggle with dragon meta, carnosaurs can kill them but they’re just tough to catch and the slann is just meh

[@drdiscostu]

Agree, I'd actually say the Slann is below "meh". My issue with the Lizardmen is that they certainly have good units but also loads of trash and it just forces a narrow meta. Mandatory unit of Saurus, skinks + carnosaurs/stegadons is all that's viable. Steve had a very good list.

[@poxous3854]

Steg charge on turn 1 would be front. If any part of its base was in the cav front arc it has to go front.

[@luigicasolaro9967]

Great video as usually. At 46:17 carnosaur can't pursue marauders because it made already an overrun move

[@oldschooldragon2473]

I'm a simple man. I see bigg fuckinf dinozor, I click like.

[@CLAREROMVoid]

Yeah! Using the AOS model as the Horned One Rider, sweet! I wish we could mold the aggradons to be the Cold One riders... perhaps using the AOS raptadons would be better at this, so they can fit the rank and line format.

[@lestrike2707]

would be nice to just play cold one riders with aggradons while 1 aggradon equals 2 cold ones (doubling the HP and attacks), changing them to monstrous cavalry. Might cause issues in challenges but would otherwise balance itself quite niceley I assume.

[@babsae826]

Is it possible to apply the AOS unit to the old world rules?

[@lestrike2707]

@@babsae826 any specific rules in mind?

[@rayn619]

Putting an Old Blood on a horned one is my go to too. It's a beast. Also, gotta remember sooner that old bloods have 5A base, i was losing my mind every time you said 4. :)

[@Havok229x]

How do you run your Oldblood on a Cold One. I'm assuming you give him the Horned one to get rid of stupidity. But what else?

[@rayn619]

@@Havok229x I converted an old cold one to look like an infant carnasaur that the Old Blood is training. So if I'm playing casually/thematically, I like to give it a berserker blade and say the frenzy represents the infant's eagerness to get food. However, my go to lately for more competitive matches has been to give it Horned one, Glyph Necklace, and Giant's Blade. The Horned One to let it run around the battle field quickly and long-distance charge 360; the Glyph necklace to give it extra protection from magic missiles in particular; and the Giant's blade for more versatility in killing characters, small monsters, and dragons (I try to teamed up with my other old blood on a carnasaur. The 360 long distance long distance charge has helped with this. It looks like the horned one is war machine hunting, then it cuts across the battle field to hit the dragon unexpectedly. Doesn't always happen, but I enjoy when it does.) I could give it a Luckstone too, but I usually use the 15 points elsewhere.

[@Havok229x]

@@rayn619 Thank you for the info. I have a 3v3 Old World game next Saturday I'm list building for. Last time I ran a Scar vet on Carno with the Tally of Protection and Meteor Armor and he did work but not enough to earn his points back. I'm wondering if I run a Old blood and Scar vet on Cold Ones kitted up right could be a great one- two punch. But also free up more points for more skinks lol

[@rayn619]

@@Havok229x I also recommend giving your saurus warrior champion the Sword of Swiftness. edit: assuming your taking more than the required 10 with no command.

[@Havok229x]

@@rayn619 In my last game my partner gave that sword to his Orc champion and was able to do work. I'm limited to 1500pts so far I've got One decked out Slann, Old Blood on a Cold One w/Horned one. 1× 10 man warriors w/HW, Champ and Standard. 4× 10 man Skinks units with jav/shields and 2× Solar engine Bastiladon. I've got about 196pts left to either add more models or upgrades. Id like to fit Kroxigors in if possible.Last time i used them as a hammer against enemy units that were already engaged in combat and worked great.

[@drdiscostu]

Carnosaur doesn't have AP unless its a monster :-( - edit you did this so often i looked it up as you're usually better at rules than me and I'm wrong!! Love learning as i watch 1.14.30 so you rolled 2d6 for the horned ones pursuit (swiftstride) and i looked up the rules, i guess youre saying that you can choose to add the modifier after looking at the result? Interesting

[@grundysgaming8513]

The warriors Duel challenge doesn't trigger gaze of the gods rule right because its characters only for the sea wolves rule?

[@tassadarc8069]

I think it was a marauder chieftain, aka the hero level character, not just a unit champion? Not actually sure how that rule works though.

[@grundysgaming8513]

@@tassadarc8069 only 1 wound infantry or cav champions can partake in the warriors duel so that doesnt add up either lol

[@andrewschall8671]

Great bat rep, loving the Old World. Wish i hadnt gotten rid of my o&g army. I think in the skinwolves fight, Carnosaur attacks are D3 wounds, not sure if it would've mattered but just a heads up, i know you guys play a ton of armies

[@MountainMiniatures]

They are not d3 damage unless the target is a Monster

[@andrewschall8671]

@@MountainMiniatures Ahh didnt see that!

[@darksos1808]

I'm not sure the champion of the huscarls, when it won the pre game duel, can have a roll on the gaze of the gods. Only characters can do a roll when winning a Challenge.

[@lestrike2707]

nope, the special rule for wolves of the sea grants to roll.

[@darksos1808]

@@lestrike2707 but only for characters when winning a duel. And I don't think champions are characters?

[@cameronhaynes9983]

​@@darksos1808You're correct here, only character models roll when they win a challenge, non-character units only roll when they capture an enemy standard

[@sarahhillary7698]

CROM! CROM! CROM! CROM!

[@AllbinP]

Go SPACE LIZARDS :D Use LASER ;)

[@consistentlystupid4726]

I love the Battle Reports, but it's sometimes hard to take seriously when Steve is making sweeping claims about Swordmasters of Hoeth being awful and point for point worse than Saurus Warriors, and ends it with "Do the math" when it seems like he hasn't? And doesn't take into account that they're often used to fight different enemies? Lets look at it. Equal amount of points of Saurus Warriors vs Swordmasters is easy. They're both 14 points per model base. Saurus can buy Spears for 1 extra point. That means 20 Swordmasters is 280, and 20 Saurus Warriors with Spears is 285. So close enough. For ease of calculations we'll assume no Command Upgrades. Swordmasters will always swing first. 5 attacks hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's, with them getting a 6+ Armor Save is 1.8 Wounds on average. Saurus swing back, with 11 attacks (3 left in the front rank, 5 supporting attacks from the spears). Hitting on 4's, wounding on 3's, 5+ Sv is 2.4 Wounds on average. A difference of .6 Wounds per combat. The Saurus come out only slightly ahead, winning by 0-1 Combat Resolution on average. That's hardly Swordmasters being awful and Saurus being this ultimately superior unit. That's just their direct comparisons. If we look at them against a wide variety of units: Empire Spearmen. They'll do .8 Wounds to the Saurus, and then take 2.8 back for a difference of about 2 Combat Resolution in favor of the Saurus. The Swordmasters will do 2.7 Wounds, and take 1.1 Wounds back for a difference of 1-2 Combat Resolution in favor of the Swordmasters. Almost even again. Against Chaos Warriors with Halberds: The Chaos Warriors will do about 1.4 Wounds to the Saurus, and take 2.1 Wounds back, so the Saurus win by 1-2 Combat Resolution. The Swordmasters do 2.1 Wounds to the Chaos Warriors, and take about 1 Wound back so the Swordmasters win by about 1 Combat Resolution. Again, almost even. Against Minotaurs with Hand Weapon/Shield Minotaurs do 3.2 Wounds to the Saurus and Saurus do 1.4 Wounds back losing by 1-2 Combat Resolution. Swordmasters do 2.1 Wounds, and take 3.7 Wounds back and also lose by 1-2 Combat Resolution. Now lets look at Chosen/Blood Knights. These are Initiative 7 on the Charge, and this is where the Swordmasters advantage really shines as they're Initiative 7 on the first round of combat and WS6 meaning they're still hitting these elite units on 3's. On the charge with 10 attacks, the knights will hit the Saurus on 3's, wound on 2's, and the Saurus only have a 6+ Sv left for a total of 4.5 Wounds. They'll get about 6 Attacks back and end up with .2 Wounds losing combat by about 4-5 Combat Resolution. The knights will get 4.1 Wounds on the Swordmasters, and the Swordmasters will end up killing 1 knight, losing combat by about 3 Combat Resolution. That means if you're in range of the Prince's Command Aura, the Swordmasters are only taking a break test on a 7 Leadership which gives it a 50/50 of only Giving Ground which is real bad news for those knights. Meanwhile the Saurus are taking a break test at a 4-5 if you're using a Slann, and only a 3-4 if you're using an Old Blood making it much more likely that you'll Fallback in Good Order giving those knights another round of charge bonuses. Now you could give the Saurus Shield Wall, but now you're up to 16PPM to the Swordmasters 14PPM. If you "Do the math", the Swordmasters and Saurus come out with the Saurus only ever winning combat by about 1 Combat Resolution over the Swordmasters against a variety of Infantry units. However, against Cavalry units, with their high Initiative and AP Swordmasters CLEARLY come out on top by a pretty big margin. A bigger margin than we see with the infantry differences.

[@MountainMiniatures]

tldr most of this but you said: "A difference of .6 Wounds per combat. The Saurus come out only slightly ahead, winning by 0-1 Combat Resolution on average. That's hardly Swordmasters being awful and Saurus being this ultimately superior unit." proving my point and the Saurus have t4 4+ save allowing them to get into combat. the t3 5+ 6++ against non magic al shooting and mr1 does not keep the sword masters alive to even see combat. this edition of push and pull combat the sword masters dont hold long enough to positive impact the High elves combat. Sword masters of the least usefull of the 3 elite HE infantry, any on the table experience proves this time and time again. people got razzle dazzled by the crazy high initiative at first sight and though man Swordmasters are OP fighting first all the time. then people actually started playing the game and know better now.

[@consistentlystupid4726]

@@MountainMiniatures I'm not saying Swordmasters are the best infantry High Elves have. But f you're trying to say a difference of less than 1 Wound on average in a fight between Saurus and Swordmasters is "proving your point" I would say you're arguing purely on semantics at this point. You also completely ignored the part about Swordmasters being MUCH better against Cavalry, something you see quite a bit of in this edition. In a fight against each other, they're almost dead even. In a fight against other infantry, they come out as almost dead even. In a fight against Heavy Cavalry, the Swordmasters have a clear advantage. As for seeing combat, here's how many wounds on average you can expect to see when shooting against Saurus and Swordmasters. This assumes they're in short range and the shooting unit hasn't moved in order to maximize hits. So at best: 10 Outriders will do 5.3 Wounds to Saurus, 7.2 to Swordmasters. So Swordmasters will lose 2 extra units. 10 Glade Guard w/ Hagbane Tips will do 1.7 to Saurus, vs 2.7 to Swordmasters. 1 extra Wound. 10 Thunderers will do 1.7 to Saurus, and 2.4 to Swordmasters. Less than a 1 Wound difference. Fireball will do 1.7 to Saurus, 3 to Swordmasters Pillar of Fire will do 1.2 to Saurus, 1.9 to Swordmasters Blue Fire will do 2.7 to Saurus, 4.3 to Swordmasters. The Summoning will do 2.3 to Saurus, 3.8 to Swordmasters. Most of these are a difference of only 1-2 Wounds. Magic and Shooting is not blasting huge swathes of Swordmasters off the board and leaving Saurus unscathed going into battle. MR-1 DOES come into play on this though. Is it the biggest buff in the world? No. But it does mean you only have a 50/50 chance of casting any of these spells as you're casting as a Level 3, and the enemy is Dispeling as a Level 4 meaning they only have to match the number you roll on the dice. It's also just a straight 8% extra chance the spell fails as you need to roll a 5 instead of a 4 (Going from 91% to 83% for the spell to go off). Lastly, and I didn't bring it up originally, the Swordmasters can buy Drilled for 1PPM. Since we've been assuming Thrusting Spears on the Saurus, this means they're both now 15PPM. High Elves are Movement 5, meaning that first turn they can March 15 inches to the Saurus' 8 inch March. An extra 7 inches of movement means the High Elves will likely be in combat before the Saurus, limiting the amount of time they can be shot. Again this isn't saying Swordmasters are an S Tier unit. I'm saying the hyperbole of "They're completely awful compared to Saurus" is silly as when we actually do the math as suggested, the Saurus only come out slightly ahead against Shooting and Infantry, but fall behind against Cavalry and the ability to maneuver. If you believe Swordmasters are awful, you should be saying Saurus Warriors are equally as awful, as they perform nearly identically in most scenarios.

[@MountainMiniatures]

@@consistentlystupid4726 Im glad you are enjoying your Swordmasters. You are literally pointing out that math over and over and dont even see the obvious mathmatical conclusion. i should pin this post so people can read you make my arguments over and over. Infantry only has one real job this edition, hold out long enough for a heavy hitter in get in and help. The Output on Swordmasters is terrible compared to their cost and survivability. How often do you play the game? Do you have a lot on experience on the table? This isnt ment to be condescending, its a serious question. Tone is hard to covey through text.

[@consistentlystupid4726]

@@MountainMiniatures I don't think you're being condescending. You guys have undoubtedly the most experience out of any channel (and maybe anyone?) when it comes to The Old World. You guys put out a crazy amount of TOW content. I get 1-2 games in per month, and get to witness a few more while hanging out during games so obviously not as much experience as you guys have. Maybe the difference might be down to the opinion of what we personally view as being "awful". Swordmasters are worse than Saurus against Infantry by a marginal amount, and take a marginal amount of more damage from shooting and magic, though MR-1 offsets the magic vulnerability a bit. MR-1 is something that I do have a fair amount of table experience with as I play mostly Tzeentch Marked Warriors of Chaos. It's not going to be absolutely game changing, but -1 to cast comes up more than you would imagine, though that admittedly is when it's on every unit in the list so that might make it feel more impactful. Meanwhile Swordmasters are better against Cavalry. I just don't think I could ever label a unit as "awful" just because it's slightly worse than a different unit against one Troop Type, while being better against a different Troop Type. To me, awful means basically unusable. In my examples, both the Saurus and Swordmasters are winning their fights against non-elite infantry and elite infantry, the Saurus are just winning by about 1 extra point. They're both tying units up, they're both winning combats. They're both successfully doing the same job. Against Monstrous Infantry, Saurus and Swordmasters both lose by the same amount of Combat Resolution meaning they "hold" the same against them. The biggest difference is against Cavalry, where they both lose but Swordmasters lose by quite a bit less, meaning more likely to simply Give Ground. They're performing the same jobs, at about the same cost, at nearly the same effectiveness. I just don't see that as unusuably bad. The biggest strike against Swordmasters vs Saurus (That hasn't been brought up yet but I'll still concede on the point in advance) is that Saurus are a mandatory 1+ Unit. You HAVE to bring Saurus. You don't HAVE to bring Swordmasters. Saurus performing mostly the same job is a big benefit when you are required to have them, where as Swordmasters are optional so it feels like they need to be pulling even more weight to justify them being in a list.

[@ironbreaker82]

He also claims that chaos warriors are the best core in the game. But not forsaken, not the core unit with a 5+ ward, stubborn, immune to psychology, m5, furious charge, mutations, d3 attacks and swiftstride with slaanesh. Every army would kill for a core unit with even half of those abilities. Kinda makes you wonder if he's a gw shill with claims like that, especially, a week before choas went on pre-sale. So absurd.

[@roryoutdoors5431]

GOOD MORNING HOSERS!!! ❤️ 🇨🇦 Milk for the Khorne Flakes! Syrup for the Pancakes!

[@sarahhillary7698]

Khorne cares not from whence the syrup, flows only that it flows 🍁

[@roryoutdoors5431]

@@sarahhillary7698 tabernak c’est de Rivière de Loupe bien sur!

[@Vikingeek]

How many skin wolves are you running?

[@MountainMiniatures]

there are Four Skinwolves

[@Vikingeek]

@@MountainMiniatures That is the correct number of Skinwolves xD

[@shagmetz]

​@@MountainMiniaturesHe got you! Foreskin wolves😅

[@MountainMiniatures]

@@shagmetz he got me with the joke i made in the video.

[@phantombaz77]

No AoS games going to happen?

[@cp1cupcake]

Were you guys doing the skinks as S2 or 3?

[@MountainMiniatures]

@@cp1cupcake it’s S3 T2.

[@cp1cupcake]

@@MountainMiniatures Yeah, its just I thought you might have done them S2 in the first stegatron fight.

[@MountainMiniatures]

@@cp1cupcake Huscarls are T4

[@DamBrooks]

You can’t kill Kromme

[@jaspasouter]

First one love the videos yes seraphons

[@temus2858]

Use the true word: LI-ZARD-MEN

[@MagpieR6]

it isnt seraphon

[@konatelassina5301]

Complete and total drubbing. How do Wolves of the Sea compete with a list like that?

[@MountainMiniatures]

@@konatelassina5301 lol