MSE or Double Jaw Surgery?

[@MM-cx7mw]

The way you talk “do mse” seems so easy, not as easy as to FIND SOMEONE WHO WORKS WITH THOSE SURGERIES...

[@Raptaria]

Thank you so much Ronnie. I had a consultation for MSE this week and I am hopeful that it will be enough to resolve my nasal breathing problems

[@DetectiveConan990v3]

did you end up going with MSE? how are you feeling now?

[@borz55]

Ronald you forgot one thing about MSE, what is unique about MSE is it doesn’t just expand the nasal floor, it also expands the nasal walls laterally, which hugely improves nasal breathing. The oral surgeon that will be doing my MSE told me that patients report more dramatic improvement in nasal breathing from MSE compared to the “Segmental/multi-piece” LeFort 1 surgery (in which they cut your maxilla further into 2, 3 or 4 pieces to expand laterally). The reason why MSE is superior to this for nasal breathing is because the segmental lefort only expands the nasal floor, and does nothing for the nasal walls because the lefort 1 line is right at the nasal floor level, while MSE expands the whole nasal cavity (floor and walls). This is why I decided to do MSE first and then go into double jaw surgery 6 months after (to take care of the forward movement). For lateral movement of the maxilla there is nothing better than MSE.

[@spiscold50]

Lifefuel man, I love this post

[@spiscold50]

I'm planning on doing this plan as well but the main issue I'm worried about is my assymetry

[@sapereaude1984]

How did it go?

[@andymanland]

Why did you need surgery after you did MSE if it was effective?

[@borz55]

@@andymanland MSE only widens, MMA surgery can widen and bring you forward. and if you’re a young male your chances of getting a lot of expansion with MSE is low, I even got a midline osteotomy to help the MSE, but could only widen 4mm at the maxilla bone. my doctor said Ronald is an exception.

[@Rita1984]

What about MSE with the FM? Does that actually move the maxilla forward? I know you had to stop treatment with the FM but we don't have too many samples of people who used the FM with MSE.

[@Rita1984]

We need an MSE appliance that's like AGGA with the forward growth except it pushes the maxilla forward rather than teeth...

[@bigdino475]

Nighbeerious Leywkeemious what do you mean? What are distractors?

[@c4burger]

Masoom Chauhan yeah wtf is this lol

[@borz55]

Masoom Chauhan distraction osteogenesis

[@SurfbyShootin]

What is the result of expanding laterally for the mandibular condyles? I have TMD and jaw click when I open my mouth (like to yawn.) While having a narrow anterior portion of my mandible ( anterior tooth crowding as a result) my condylar width is widest when most agape, it seems that I dont have enough lateral width (even with moderate cheek width.)

[@balakfnd1931]

I’m 18 right now. My nose is always stuffy and I don’t even have allergies... I also want a wider smile.. when I get my shit together in a year or two, I’m gonna get MSE

[@aleksandartoza7313]

Until then you should be mewing unless u lack significant IMW to be able to place the whole tongue

[@test-ky8tu]

CharlesTron108 what’s the difference?

[@prince_sach50]

Same I'm working on getting invisalign and getting my septum fixed here bud

[@louisronan5903]

Yeah you should be mewing hard everyday for the next 2 years, you will probably solve your problems with mewing.

[@andrewgarfield9898]

Louis Ronan what if you can’t breathe when mewing?

[@maurice5402]

Merry Christmas man, keep up the good work.

[@lukebruce5234]

I know you said you haven't really done the facemask (since AGGA already gave you some forward growth) but do you think FM hooked up to MSE is potent when it comes down to forward growth?

[@jeffrman777]

Not when you're already an adult.

[@bella____________9690]

MSE does not provide any forward movement (maxillary advancement) or counter-clockwise rotation, two things that improve facial appearance in many people. A segmental LeFort will be able to expand the bite and also do these things. MSE is really intended to fix a cross bite, not to improve the airway as mentioned here

[@sixteenttwonine9675]

What’s a LeFort?

[@bella____________9690]

@@sixteenttwonine9675 LeFort osteotomy is double jaw surgery

[@FreerunnerCamilo]

How would it not increase the airway?

[@ulu9208]

@@bella____________9690 did you get ur wisdom tooth extracted before the double jaw surgery

[@ye23.]

You didnt address how mse makes your nose shape change. It’ll make the nose look wider which is undesirable for many. It’ll also leave you with a bugs bunny gap for several months post surgery. These factors are a huge downside if you’re an adult looking into this

[@ye23.]

Valeria Sari nose change is permanent. I said as an adult the bugs bunny gap is undesirable because if you work, especially in a people focused role, it will be embarrassing to sport a gap that huge even if its temporary.

[@nicholastaylor9882]

Great video, your reasoning makes sense. I'm curious about one particular point with MSE. You state that it isn't really ideal for people looking for more forward projection, but I'd assume that since almost everyone these days is too narrow relative to how we should be, even someone with relatively normal width would still benefit aesthetically from expansion at the mid-face. Is this a correct assumption? Along with this, would any meaningful upswing be possible by combining a facemask with MSE? I know you had it for a while so I'm wondering whether you think the facemask might be a viable option for gaining greater projection for a person with normal occlusion but recessed mandible/maxilla who doesn't want double jaw surgery.

[@drkstrnd]

It is the only option, but take some facepulling device instead, it won't create a overbite

[@babywolf-100xincoming-baby8]

DARKSTRAND Official What kind of facepulling devices are out there? That’s interesting, I’ve only heard of face mask.

[@c4burger]

Nicholas Taylor it seems people with the most dysfunctional airways and facial growth there is less sources and options. It seems there are specific nasal surgeries(non-invasive) that can help because MSE and other expansion seems to have little to no impact on forward movement. May be a solution in the near future, but I doubt the face mask alone could add that much growth. I don’t have an interest in double jaw surgery but it may be the only reasonable solution if you’re as bad as me. Really irritating how Ronald, the mews and other sources just don’t care or deal with the people suffering the most.

[@prince_sach50]

C4 Burger Same bro I have an overbite, recessed mandible and maxilla, and narrow high arched palate along with a Deviated septum

[@tonato17]

@@c4burger If you expand the palate, couldn't you move the jaw forward with mewing? Wondering that for myself.

[@mazdakmomen8903]

You've shared a bit about the positive benefits of splitting the suture, I'm curious if you've experienced, or heard of, any negative side effects from having the split or MSE in general?

[@shaftofwisdom]

The only risk is that one side expands more than the other. Most ppl with narrow maxilla are also recessed so surgery following mse is probably the best.

[@fatimav441]

@@shaftofwisdom what kind of surgery is needed after? Sorry Im new at this

[@prince_sach50]

Karl Es You just stated my plan lol

[@ye23.]

If MSE is just another term for Sarpe surgery then yes there are side effects. It’ll make the nose look wider. It’ll also leave you with a bugs bunny gap for several months post surgery. These factors are a huge downside if you’re an adult looking into this

[@christianjohnson2562]

Broooo you live in Massachusetts?? I live on the borderline of Connecticut, 30 minutes from Worcester, Massachusetts!! WHAT DOCTOR DID YOU USE I BEEN TRYING TO FIND ONE??!

[@aikaterineillt9876]

When you said black triangles, did you mean the dark buccal corridors on either side of the mouth?

[@oe9953]

yea

[@LaughinLoneStar]

Wow, Ron looks 12 years old here, so cute!

[@healthwithjeremy]

I just had double jaw advancement for my sleep apnea last month. Do you think I could do MSE after? Maybe in like 6-12 months when bone heals?

[@jb12852]

Hopefully no

[@ulu9208]

did you get ur wisdom tooth extracted before the double jaw surgery

[@robertoj.guzman6642]

Hi Ronald, I will like to know which doctor for MSE do you recommend in Orlando.

[@Dylan-yv6ko]

My question is if you expand the maxilla with MSE, then what happens with the bottom teeth? Won’t they be left more narrow than the top? How to expand the bottom as well to ensure a proper fitting bite?

[@simonb3158]

Hey Ronald, you said, that in the case of a very recessed "ugly" chin/lower jaw, MSE might not be ideal to solve the problem (I thought the same). But what do you recommend for those, if they are not willing to do surgery? Would still be something like AGGA the way to go? Thank you!

[@babywolf-100xincoming-baby8]

Simon B AGGA is limited in how much forward growth it can give you while still being healthy/safe. I’d do it only if I needed less than a centimeter of forward growth and if my jaw rotation angles were closer to horizontal

[@simonb3158]

@@babywolf-100xincoming-baby8 thanks for your reply! How would you determine how much forward movement you need? And you would not do it if the jaw was rotated downwards because you would think it would elongate the face? How about vertical rotation?

[@prince_sach50]

DNA appliance

[@manisx7490]

Hello @simonb3158 did u find a solution for forward growth without having to resort to surgery?

[@simonb3158]

@@manisx7490 hey, back then I unfortunately went down the AGGA route but stopped treatment after about two years. While the forward movement was amazing at first, the teeth movement alone was not stable (and not safe at all). Right now, my jaw and teeth situation is similar to how it was before treatment. I am still hesitant to undergo any kind of surgery because I am not in pain anymore and I am afraid of the risks. I know that I would need to have at least a couple mm of forward advancing of the upper jaw for better breathing and posture, but I do not know how to achieve it. What is your situation like?

[@razvan7984]

So if MSE expand the maxila that means you will have a hole between your front 2 teeth?

[@amen7692]

yes and you get braces afterwards to move teeth together

[@goodvibesxox]

I’m so confused. I’ve been told by a professional who revises ties mse works or even just a regular shwartz expander. Yet also read to avoid all toothborne..so do I avoid going to an ortho who doesn’t offer mse? also it seems many say to not do surgery unless really necessary and to test for apnea. I see you can get expansion from surgery too. So wouldn’t DJS be best to do over mse alone?

[@BodyOpt]

maxillary expansion will not widen the cheekbones!! That's ridiculous. The level of cut is below the cheekbones, so they are not carried along for the ride.

[@norubi]

5:31 help! What does he mean when he said "for someone who wants to eliminate the black triangles when they smile"?

[@MsMusicalBeans]

He's talking about the "buccal corridor." Basically, if you have a narrow palette, there's more space between your teeth and the corners of your lips when you smile. The bigger this black space, the less attractive the smile, generally. Do a Google image search of "buccal corridor" to understand better.

[@DayVideo1]

We’re you able to get any type of compensation after any failed attempts? Just had a failed MSE, a bunch of wasted money, and now I’m regretful that I didn’t just do the double jaw surgery in the first place

[@eriksxo]

Why did it fail?

[@SajidKhan-kt6rz]

EASE offered by Dr. Kasey Li also expands nasal floor

[@_Trakman]

So great Skyping you 🙌🏻

[@TheMutedVid]

i thought this guy had widened his jaw with MSE but in this vid his jaw doesn't even look wide, it looks like his before pic.

[@andrewgarfield9898]

Exactly lol. All that and that’s the result lol

[@prince_sach50]

He did it mainly for breathing and to get rid of the triangles not to actually widen the jawline lol

[@UrslurStarSky7]

Is MSE effective for adults? I'm 24 right now and considering doing this...I've read online that only surgical actions are effective in adults

[@ThePodgyPanda]

yes, 24 is plenty young enough. Apparently it becomes difficult in adults after the age of 40 or so

[@darkmom8903]

Is it possible to expand laterally during a double jaw surgury? Making the mse not needed if you were to do a double jaw surgury.

[@sgberardo]

I suspect orthognatic is more to move the jaws to new places, symmetry and rotation. SARPE or MSE are more for transversal bone growth allowing transversal expansion.

[@darkmom8903]

I would think they would(or could)in a double jaw surgery, cut the mid sutures, expand the jaws, and then place them in optimal position. I've seen many testimonials of people saying their jaws were laterally widened in their double jaw surgeries.

[@shaftofwisdom]

Mse is better for that, doing rotation, advancement, symmetry AND expansion in one surgery is very heavy and you should avoid it. Expand with mse and get surgery for advancement and rotation

[@sgberardo]

@@shaftofwisdom Agree

[@jesper9622]

@@shaftofwisdom Dude, you forgot about Facemask.

[@phoenixrising9352]

How about increasing IPD, interpupilary distance?

[@drkstrnd]

I thought about that, my idea was to loosen/split all the midfacial sutures so expansion also happens for orbitals, as it does for young people (still in growth) anyways

[@phoenixrising9352]

DARKSTRAND Official So it does?

[@phoenixrising9352]

Aidan Oakes I’ve read and seen it increases 1-3mms

[@PeterGriffin-in5ut]

@@phoenixrising9352 interesting

[@phoenixrising9352]

Aidan Oakes Intredasting indeed.

[@cristoff3]

Anybody know surgeons within UK that offer such services?

[@haydenjones5849]

Can mse help a recessed chin?

[@test-ky8tu]

Can someone explain the difference between mse and dna?

[@spiscold50]

DNA Isn't guaranteed bone born expansion

[@Mimixrose99]

Isn’t there a non-surgical solution for recessed maxilla ?

[@nancyceuleers5606]

@CharlesTron108 yeah i would love to know! I have an overbite (not a huge one but still) and due to that my jaw looks recessed and I dont know if MSE is going to benefit me but jaw surgery sounds dangerous.... So please let me know!

[@nancyceuleers5606]

@CharlesTron108 thanks so much!

[@nancyceuleers5606]

@CharlesTron108 belgium, so if you know any specialists there you may always let me know

[@simonb3158]

@@nancyceuleers5606 there is one in Germany, but not in Belgium as far as I know

[@simonb3158]

@CharlesTron108 Have you done DNA? If yes, how far did you expand forwards and laterally? Did your breathing improve?

[@Sunrise-fr9jb]

I just kinda am thinking of doing only jaw surgery because then ild have todo something with the mandible also and it seems easier to just do double jaw surgeries

[@_Trakman]

Can you make video on DOME please

[@be246]

i thought about mewing till 25 and if nothing goes right im going to do jaw surgery..

[@Serenity-tn4yn]

Don't waste time mewing. Surgery is better.

[@prince_sach50]

If your condition is super bad like mine just go with surgery but make sure to find a really good surgeon that cares about asthetics as well man. Then after, practice good oral posture

[@Itachi-rl9xg]

Why does his face look weird? Is he still recovering from the mse surgery?!

[@american4280]

MSE is not a surgery

[@ZUNNI333]

Would getting AGGA before MSE be more efficient?

[@shaftofwisdom]

I think it depends on whether your front teeth are already angles forword that much/. In theory 3 to 4 millimeters Agga prior to expansion and surgery would always be optimal

[@wince9537]

@@shaftofwisdom can you help me? My chin is slightly recessed. What would you recomend?

[@prince_sach50]

Yo what if you need surgery for a flat face and also expansion for narrow and high arched palate

[@carlj6212]

Aye man...those are my problems

[@Blank-km4qr]

Has your headaches gone away

[@Itachi-rl9xg]

CAN YOU DO BOTH SURGERY?

[@ziegrahlsoul]

Did you get the mse device out after the expansion? Or not

[@JawHacks]

No. It will be in until October (1 full year after finishing expansion).

[@gauravpednekar3288]

one question, when you do split the palatal suture with mse and expand, what fills up in that gap? is it blood and permanent scar tissue? or does bone eventually fill it up??

[@prince_sach50]

Bone naturally but then I think braces or invaslign close the gap

[@swagpeach9850]

Do you know of a MSE provider near Toronto Canada

[@prabhnoorsingh2964]

I am looking for one as well. Have you fond anyone ?

[@Gigachadashlum]

I have tmj now beacasue of mse

[@lumoquest6609]

My palate is too narrow to mew (like 35mm or less), should I get a palate expander?

[@gustavodemira7416]

MSE is the way to go! If you have maxillary hypoplasia, retrognathia or terrible mandibular prognathism, you could pair MSE with a double jaw surgery afterwards. However, it is considerably expensive and invasive, but those are THE best methods to expand the maxillary width and reconfigure the entire jaw, respectively.

[@Mrtyjr]

Absolutely, but don't look specifically for MSE which is just one device to expand the palate, as there are many similar devices with just different names. It's difficult enough to even find an orthodontist who is prepared to expand the palate in an adult, let alone finding someone who specifically offers MSE to expand palate.

[@lumoquest6609]

Gustavo De Mira, Thanks for your response :) I was thinking of buying a palate expander from this link: www.bracesshop.net/en/active-plates/4/active-plate-schwarz?number=0051.1 Thoughts?

[@ZUNNI333]

Gustavo De Mira hey, do you think I’lo be able to get MSE after I’ve had orthodontic treatment and extractions?

[@eleanorrigby2923]

@@lumoquest6609 you have to keep in mind that the teeth will move as well, and if you don't do it properly you can really mess up the roots of your teeth.

[@angelsky6869]

Double jaw surgery splits the maxilla

[@user-qj7fp9ug7j]

Hey Ronald! Can I ask you about my plan? Basically I'm 15 as of now and I'm applying the mewing principles. According to my fellow redditors I should be able to achieve fully forward growth by 25. I would like to know if after achieving close to forward growth or forward growth form 10 years mewing can I get MSE and FM? Will this help me achieve forward growth, palatal expansion and upswing? Also what to do about my mandible? Thanks in advance

[@biomaterialskorea6827]

Hello. We are BMK company which is a supplier of MSE. How about to meet MSE doctor? If you’d like to receive MSE practitioner's information, please send it to us via email. [e-mail] Thank you

[@estrela19]

updates?

[@mojo382]

What are some of the differences between MSE and the DNA appliance?

[@shaftofwisdom]

DNA is much less painful expands laterally, forward and upwards, but some of the expansion might be teeth movement. Mse is painful and clumsy af and only expands laterally but it's guaranteed that's every millimeter is bone growth. You want to move as much bone as possible, teeth can be easily adjusted with braces later

[@dmjb3852]

@@shaftofwisdom so what would you recommend out of the 2?

[@prince_sach50]

Declan Bullen mse

[@angelsky6869]

@@dmjb3852 probably dna based on what he said

[@xeize]

What are the black triangles when smiling?

[@godchild505]

They're Called Buccal Corridors.

[@xeize]

ok ty guys

[@Bobbyeverything2000]

Where and how do I go about getting MSE?

[@amen7692]

find a provider and ask him ? lol

[@biomaterialskorea6827]

Hello. We are BMK company which is a supplier of MSE. If you’d like to receive MSE practitioner's information, please send it to us via email. [e-mail] Thank you

[@PeterGriffin-in5ut]

@@biomaterialskorea6827 thank me? no, thank YOU.

[@viktorsvanstrom1297]

Im 16 soon 17. And I was wondering if the Mse or Rpe is the best option for me. I dont have anyone that uses the Mse near me. Is rpe to late for me?

[@dracula5205]

same question

[@dracula5205]

@CharlesTron108 I have the same issue as victor and there are no ortho who knows about Dna appliance here.

[@oscarquiros9848]

CharlesTron108 I live in the USA more specifically Florida. Im wondering how much it would cost to get MSE on average.

[@biomaterialskorea6827]

Hello. We are BMK company which is a supplier of MSE. If you’d like to receive MSE information, please send it to us via email. We will give you helpful information. [e-mail] Thank you

[@Byemiek]

What is the purpose of this man? Test all expander palate?

[@american4280]

Function and health

[@prince_sach50]

Breathing right and looking better

[@CroElectroStile]

do you neeed to remove wisdom teeth with doing MSE, and does SARPE expand the nasal airways?

[@OnePiece-os3pe]

Sr Did you have SARPE done ?

[@OnePiece-os3pe]

it would because with SARPE your splitting the maxilla and have to have an expander to widen the crack .

[@Molly797wo]

What is mse and where to buy it

[@SurfbyShootin]

Find em at Radioshack.

[@red_snow6701]

How much is all this costing you btw? Like MSE for example

[@shaftofwisdom]

@CharlesTron108 my orthodontist suggested to wear DNA for 15 months could I get 15 mm of expansion?

[@shaftofwisdom]

My dentist Noted 4 centimeter but I don't know if it's between the Inside of the molars or from the outside edges if the molars. My cheekbones are narrow and flat and my wisdom teeth don't have enough space so I want to expand as much as humanly possible to get wide face and make room with wisdom teeth. My smile from the front I can count 10 teeth. But I have high palate and nasal issues

[@red_snow6701]

CharlesTron108 you have any advice to like make the wisdom teeth grow right because I’m 18 mine already started to grow and I wanna just try to make not crooked or have to remove them?

[@red_snow6701]

CharlesTron108 thank you and yea I’ve been meowing for a few months now and breathing through the nose but last time I got it checked the doc said I had an extra tissue or something like that in my nose which kinda clogged my nose a bit but I’ve been working on that might get surgery to remove it also I’m into fitness and I realized when I’m breathing just through my nose I have so much more stamina left I watched other videos and that’s when I really started to breathe just through my nose but yea I’m still gonna look into the surgery see if it’s still necessary for my nose to breathe better

[@red_snow6701]

CharlesTron108 yes in Michigan

[@johnoduntan5760]

O well the forwarded swing of the jaw is what mewing.... It seem well to me that you're not a mewing fan.... Lmao

[@Jwalk1829]

He burped 2:37

[@sa25schaam24]

How much is mse?

[@american4280]

5k-15k

[@BadgerBabyBoy]

What's MSE?

[@BadgerBabyBoy]

I'm often asking about the acronyns you use Some viewers may already know but I'd say many do not so they just click off Perhaps just explain briefly what things mean?

[@viktorsvanstrom1297]

@@BadgerBabyBoy Mse stands for Maxillary Skeletal Expander, its a form of Marpe (Miniscrew-assisted rapid palatal expander). Its basically a Rapid palate expander but instead of pushing on the theeth there are miniscrews that push on the bone.

[@sgberardo]

Hi Ron and all! I live in Portugal. Anyone knows the closest clinic I can have treatment with MSE?

[@pedromeleiro5613]

Acho que só em Paris, mas nao tenho a certeza...

[@sgberardo]

@@pedromeleiro5613 Obrigado! I probably will go with SARPE and cheekbones implants.

[@sgberardo]

@@pedromeleiro5613 vou fazer MARPE (é semelhante a MSE, também não-cirurgico) na Clinica Dias da Silva (Porto) com o presidente da Sociedade Portuguesa de Ortodontia (Armando Dias da Silva).

[@biomaterialskorea6827]

Hello. We are BMK company which is a supplier of MSE. If you’d like to receive MSE practitioner's information, please send it to us via email. [e-mail] Thank you

[@atahancamaro]

Mewing with braces? What do you think about it?

[@dawseyboy1]

won't work, to opposite opposing forces against each other

[@atahancamaro]

@Ruka Ruka thanks mate🙌

[@yourbeauty6943]

@Ruka Ruka what if the braces pushe in the maxilla

[@shaftofwisdom]

It depends whether your braces are expanding or refractive. But hard mewing won't go further than the braces curre tly allow so just mew normally

[@amen7692]

are you a "natural mewer" or only started when you found out about it

[@downo]

Why is his hair hanging over his eyes? Is that practical? Please someone explain

[@spiscold50]

To cover the forehead. It's a better look for attracting females

[@spoziscool]

What’s your ideal solution for someone only interested in aesthetics improvement?

[@amen7692]

watch the video again lmao

[@johncoleman6409]

left 3

[@Serenity-tn4yn]

@guillotine 481 Talking from experience?

[@spoziscool]

@guillotine 481 Well MSE is a surgery bro, Just a less invasive and a more gradual surgery. Seems more on the safe side than jaw surgery.

[@prince_sach50]

@guillotine 481 are you saying a double jaw is better in the long term than this mse stuff?

[@xxxangelbreezexxx7821]

I had a mse for about a year and 5 years of braces, about to get djs