Muhammad Had SEX SLAVES In The Quran - Atheist Sam Harris & Christian Apologist Jordan Peterson

Full discussion here: • Jordan Peterson vs Sam...
#samharris #jordanpeterson #debate #religion #jordanpetersondaily #jordanpetersondebate #atheism #atheist #atheistviews #muhammad #islam #muslim #muslims #secularism #secularhumanism #humanism #quran #exmuslim #exmuslimlive
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[@Pangburn]

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[@michelangelope830]

I am talking to humanity. Please stop the war. Don't talk for a moment. Rest in peace and tranquility. Close your eyes and breathe mindfully. I am the greatest psychologist of all time because I have discovered the nature of God, not a charlatan looking for attention. If humanity don't know God is the creator of the universe or believe the idea of God is fantasy or dogma of faith that belongs to religion is because they have deceived you manipulating the information with disastrous eternal consequences. God is necessary and logically it is impossible the existence of the creation or finitude without the creator or infinitude. Are you a religious person reading this loving poem? How many times have you said you want the end of atheism? You can have what you say you want when the discovery that atheism is a logical fallacy is news. The greatest knowledge of all time is atheism is a logical fallacy that assumes God is the religious idea of the creator of the creation to conclude wrongly no creator exists because a particular idea of God doesn’t exist. Nobody ever enjoyed eternal paradise lying and God exists with absolute certainty. God exists as certain as I exist. Would you memorize and understand the atheist logical fallacy to preserve knowledge useful for future generations? I am not asking you to agree with me and everyone can be right or wrong, which doesn't mean I can not be right and humanity past and present can not be wrong believing God is what atheists call "sky daddy". Emergency! Share! Share! Share!.

[@user-su9pm3qo2d]

FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEE ISRAEL FOREVER WILL BE FREE

[@VesnaVK]

Did Jordan agree to being labeled a "Christian apologist"? He refused to affirm the Resurrection, in this very series of conversations with Sam.

[@davidemmet7343]

@@VesnaVK I noticed that labeling also. How could you not decribe Sam Harris an atheist apologist?

[@davidemmet7343]

The question is not just whether a person is dogmatic, but whether their dogma is good or bad! Harris claims that "good people" join a religion and suddenly do horrible things.This is much more likely to happen with people who don't have strong beliefs and a strong moral compass. Also, as Peterson pointed out, many of the worst atrocities that were carried out in 30th century were atheists or agnostics. The way that Harris trys to exclude himself and atheists from being labeled a religion or dogmatic is ridiculous.

[@mahdih2141]

That's the main reason why i left Islam. I couldn't believe that a religion could be that cruel

[@useyourbrain2966]

So glad there are still humans with common sense in religion who are waking up. 🙏🏻 I left a religious cult 5 years ago and I’m being shunned and looked down at by my old community just because I woke up and realized my beliefs were cruel and just plain INCORRECT.

[@ReligionAndMaterialismDebunked]

:3 Out two days ago. Fellow Jewish brother, and anti-religion, as well, Sam Harris.

[@ReligionAndMaterialismDebunked]

​@@useyourbrain2966congrats to you, too 🎉🎉🤝!! 😻✊🏼🤝🤜🏼🤛🏼🫶🏼

[@hasanabduqayumov]

that makes two of us

[@johnpoo1662]

Also if Islam was really the revealed truth of an omnipotent god, Muslims all over over the world would be the most enlightened people ever. In fact , they are the most backwards, and are in fact holding back humanity as a whole with their bronze age myths.

[@Max-dk5vz]

Ex muslim here. You cannot imagine how much resources,time and human lives wasted so muslims can bring back the 21st century to the standards of 1400 years ago.

[@TiOw-yu6xe]

I’ve heard some people say that leaving Islam is not an achievement. I disagree. I think it absolutely is. The people that were not raised in islam, have no idea how difficult it is to do it - to leave this faith. This first means intellectually it is difficult to question particularly, this particular mode of thinking, that was reinforced for many years in early life, since childhood through very controlling methods. This isn’t a regular strain of thoughts you pick up when you’re a kid. There is a uniquely strong concoction of fear and hope and community that works against you, if you’d like to venture outside the islamic norm. Everything is used from its very frightening threat of a terrifying hellfire, to being outcast by your peers, or even harm in certain countries. Remember that often Muslims are taught to have great fear, and that they MUST believe in God, directly related to the Islamic concept of hell and other influences. It takes a ton of intellectual honesty, and work - sometimes even bravery. This is especially true if you’re deep in the Islamic faith. If you would like to see how difficult it is firsthand, you theoretically could politely talk to Muslims and see how convinced they are about Islam and how UNWILLING they are to change their mind about Islam being the one true religion. Just ask them what would change your views and make you think Islam isn’t true? Was the answer “absolutely nothing”? Almost always this will be the answer. Coming out of islam is rare, and only the strong minded can make the difficult walk through Islam and then to atheism. Only strong types of people can do the work of painful inquiry and introspection, then come to a logical conclusion. From a typically closed system to an open one, where you are receptive to new information and adaptive in your approach. This isn’t a walk in the park. Give credit where it’s due. ✌️

[@davidwatermeyer5421]

Well said indeed. It is a pity that your type of response is so rare in this world. I find Harris very lacking in the type of sentiment you express. I also find him very selective in his judgements and would be far happier if he would focus on the crimes of Judaism, since he is Jewish, than endlessly selecting Islam to bash. If you take his line of reasoning through deeply (I agree a lot with his reasoning but don't like the prejudiced examples he gives) then you would find no justification for the past at least 70 years of violence that has brought about the state of Israel. But Sam is an apologist for Israel, almost certainly because he is Jewish, and blind to the violence of Israel, instead focusing on what he clearly sees as evil backward dogmatic Palestinians to justify this endless systematic violence. I respect people who look at the faults of themselves and their own group instead of forever looking at faults in others and other groups. Which is why I don't have an enormous amount of respect for Harris. He clearly is intelligent and has that going for him. But he is by no means the cleverest kid on the block as he seems to think.

[@thesavantart8480]

​@@davidwatermeyer5421 I disagree with Israel being in the same category as Palestina. I'm not Jewish and neither am I a Muslim. As someone from the outside, if I were to compare the two then to me, it seems clear that when it comes to violence, hatred and potential danger to everyone (not just the people in their region but the world) then Palestine just easily takes that spot. The core argument for that being the Islam. After I met people who left the Islam, who experienced the true culture of the middle east, their stories only compounded my views. Stories I've never heard about people leaving Judaism. They just aren't at the same level.

[@all-caps3927]

​@@thesavantart8480 well if your opinion is based off of stories it has no value to anyone but yourself buddy. If you think Palestine is more violent and hateful compared to Isreal 1. you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about 2. you are simply historically ignorant and in denial.

[@MrManny075]

You missed the point a major one, Islam means submission a Muslim is the one who submits, How to do that? believe in God who created you and do the right thing, What's the right thing? the opposite of evil. How do you know that? Deep down we all know it, sure some people try to justify evil but it will not change the facts, Hell is a deterrent to keep people on the right path and away from evil, Whatever you do you do it for yourself only you and God know Religion means a path there is no true or false path but there is a right and a wrong path, How does someone on the right path come out and take the wrong path? Are you saying someone by saying I don't believe in God meaning he takes the wrong path? this can only happen by the action he chooses to take if he says this life is the only one and he will do whatever to live it in full regardless of others if he has to step on them so be it, himself first he will take and take whatever he can and in any way or form, if he have to lie cheat or even kill that what he do, Do you see the pint?

[@Dontbeasheep345]

Just don’t F**K your daughters INCEST IN THE BIBLE Genesis 19:32 Daughters and father having sex.( Lot and his 2 daughters) Genesis 35:22 Reuben sleeps-with his father's concubine on the roof and Israel his father heard about it and said nothing. Genesis 38:16 Judah (father of the Jewish race, You know Judea, Judaism, etc.) Sleeps with his daughter in law by the road side Genesis 20:12 Abraham married his Sister Genesis 9:20-22 Ham sleeps with his fathers wife or his father wife both. Leviticus 20:17).[16] The same idea was raised by third-century rabbis, in the Babylonian Talmud (en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_Talmud) (c. 500 AD), who argue that Ham either castrated his father, or sodomised. The same explanations are found in three Greek translations of the Bi ble, which replace the word "see" in verse 22 with another word denoting homosexual relations Genesis 11:32 Uncle(Nahor) sleeps with his niece(Milcah).

[@freeman500]

Ex muslim here 😅

[@user-qn9tm8yp5b]

👏

[@Pangburn]

Welcome :)

[@tonykhoury5522]

Always the best ones!!!

[@rsr789]

I wish more people would listen to your views! Instead, they listen to the Islamofascist extremists!

[@Vgallo]

why have you stopped being Muslim?

[@wahidkarimi-zw7fx]

I was born in Afghanistan but am athiest since 35 years back. So I left religion at age of 16.

[@Wise__guy]

Woow do you want a cookie or something?

[@wahidkarimi-zw7fx]

@@Wise__guy Yes. Hahaha. Idiot

[@JCPoetryCourner]

@@Wise__guywhy so needlessly grouchy? The guy just said his story.

[@RepaSre]

Amazing 🙌

[@h4rder10]

do u still live in Afghanistan? if u dont, then when did u live ur country?

[@davidwhite8220]

It's worse than that: the Koran says three times that rape of slaves is permitted. It also says, no less than six times, that Muslims should not be friends with "infidels". So much for "failure" to assimilate: it is part of the religion. The idea that Muslims are in effect "the super-tribe of the faithful", which would also prevent assimilation, is also implicit in much of the Koran.

[@sandermanso]

What shocks me is that we can’t cite Quran on KZbin comments because of its violence … very hard to discuss it if we censor ourself about what is indeed on such book

[@syedhameedullahshah2221]

Quran is less violent than Old Testament

[@TheMagnificentGman]

That and the quran specifically says to cut off family that choose disbelief

[@syedhameedullahshah2221]

which verse

[@marcusgronwall1340]

Which surahs, please!

[@southernc4919]

If you think, you have to leave Islam

[@AsifKhan-hf9zy]

you mean leave planet earth?

[@mad5161]

​@@AsifKhan-hf9zywell currently you cannot live elsewhere, you have to make a place for yourself regardless of what your beliefs are... Ya know there is this thing called competition, and there is an abundance of that on this planet so you gotta cope alot!

[@nathanspark4876]

same for all other religion bro, all made up to fool retarded people incapable of SIMPLE critical thinking ;)

[@nunya54]

No way. Islam is the most logical religion; It has intellectual proofs and evidence.

[@jasontito7644]

@@nunya54 and most honorable, like allowing pedophilia, beating women, taking slaves, marrying 10 different wives, killing non believers and cutting off their hands and feet etc. all taken from your Hadiths and Quran and not from other sources..do you really read your Quran and hadiths?

[@Milestonemonger]

I'm a Christian woman born and raised in the Middle East. I hated how religiously strict everyone was. It felt suffocating. I couldn't wait to leave.

[@syedhameedullahshah2221]

Jesus kept all the strict laws

[@chirantanchatterjee7371]

​@@syedhameedullahshah2221no bro it was mohammad who created Islam in its own turm and believes he is the real evel

[@ChillAssTurtle]

​@@syedhameedullahshah2221jesus didnt know about germs or the smallest seed. Dude was a fraud n they mercd him

[@rexsceleratorum1632]

@@syedhameedullahshah2221 Jesus broke all the strict laws. He violated the sabbath and justified it. He stopped the stoning of an adulteress.

[@syedhameedullahshah2221]

The story of adulteress was a later addition. Since Jesus himself is sinless is he allowed to apply strict laws to adulterers?

[@hamodalbatal464]

That was one of the reasons why I left Islam

[@mekavio8231]

what were the others ?

[@hamodalbatal464]

@@mekavio8231 the fact the Koran and Hadeeth contradict science in away made me question if Allah the almighty the all knowing didn’t know got it wrong, how on earth can I trust him or his religion, this took me years of contemplating till I finally found myself I no longer can justify to my conscious being Muslim anymore.

[@hadiakhtar1990]

​@@hamodalbatal464 what part of Quran and Hadith contradict science?

[@haroldwood1394]

Years ago, I came across an English version of a North Korean book about Kim jong-il as a child and youth. It was filled with secular miracles: effortlessly, he fixed tractors that no mechanic could fix, repaired a sewing machine in seconds and thus saved a weeping female worker, asked questions that no teacher could answer, etc, etc. The religious parallels were unmistakeable.

[@ponygirl1716]

Yes, in the absence of a god, people will make gods of people, animals, or things. We are called to worship. Even when we deny the existence of God, we will always put someone or something in His place.

[@quail4sale334]

Ayn Rand taught us to exalt our own being & purpose, and to attempt to elevate ourselves rather than worship anyone else.

[@puraLusa]

​@@ponygirl1716in the case of nk no one chose, it's mandatory to believe and practice the faith.

[@Durzo1259]

Honestly that sounds more to me like a genius who could MacGyver anything than a miraculous super human.

[@perfectlysureunknown]

​@@ponygirl1716That is just not true😅 In that case you need to prove it. Its not true just because you said it. In that case, every atheist on the planet worships some god-substitute. That's insane and if you cannot show it, you certainly don't know it to be true.

[@j.whisper2379]

If it requires only 10 words, Jordan will use a hundred!

[@kumaranvij]

Because the ten words would expose him as the fraud he is. With the hundred he can cover up his own lack of reason with a nice, fresh word salad and many won't be the wiser.

[@timducote5713]

You guys who go after Peterson always use his vocabulary as a point of attack. Do you think that may possibly say more about your shortcomings than his?

[@j.whisper2379]

@@timducote5713 ! Or it says something about baffle them with BS!

[@odinson6348]

​@@timducote5713 Because it's through his vocabulary that he says such stupid shit.

[@timducote5713]

@@j.whisper2379 Or, you criticize what you don't understand.

[@chrismathis4162]

Jordan Peterson is the master of saying nothing.

[@miyojewoltsnasonth2159]

I've heard about Jordan Peterson more than actually watching him. Are there any examples you'd point out from this video where he is the "master of saying nothing"?

[@nibsvkh]

@@miyojewoltsnasonth2159 KZbin…be prepared to be extremely bored!

[@DiZtheJedi]

@@nibsvkh I mean, waiting for nine days with no answer is probably pretty boring.

[@kmsdoj4519]

He really is, it's nothing but pseudointellectual fluff.

[@jakethehuman7]

@@miyojewoltsnasonth2159the only people who dislike him are people who don't dig into his lectures and either only read headlines or come into a video with a predetermined agenda.

[@Rosie-fk9mf]

love that we are now addressing him as Christian Apologist.

[@ryanharrington2890]

Haha cracked up when I saw that too 😂

[@davidjanbaz7728]

LOL 😂 as he isn't an authentic Christian YET: only culturally influenced! His daughter is which my influence him to become one.

[@tonykhoury5522]

Yes, that surprised me. But jesus loves all. Not me to judge him. And well he talks quite well

[@runthenumbers9698]

He is a Christian Apologist. The only difference is, he's an apologist for many different religions and traditions. The thing that annoys me about Peterson most... is that he seems to want to fit objective truth into a mythological box all the time. He's got his favorites, but if he can't come up with a Christian backing to his argument, he'll go ancient egyption... or Ancient Greek... or Roman... or Viking... and if he hasn't found a religious package to put his argument in, he'll go Shakespeare, and if that doesn't work, he'll cram it into the Lion king, or Beauty and the Beast! And more annoyingly yet, he's a Darwinnian (in the "Darwinnian Truth" sense). Darwinnian Truth is not truth. Darwinnian Truth is nothing but "ends justify the means" meet theology.

[@misanthrophex]

Makes no sense.

[@secondaccount2874]

I’m so happy to see in the comments: “ex Muslim” guys, you are more supported than you think

[@HitchensRAZ0R]

@12:40 valid points JP ... HOWEVER there is another type conflation. *_There's a difference between Allegory and Instruction._* That is the crucial point of Sam Harris, if people flock to a book that lays out specific instructions from the Creator of the Universe to commit acts of barbarism like child brides or rape slaves or killing infidels, that should be a huge concern for all that merits total pushback

[@Martin-el5uu]

Spot on!

[@spankyjeffro5320]

Counter point: People are infinitely stupid. ALL religions take advantage of that fact.

[@h4rder10]

take a look when SH says 'its not an allegory' .. JP's immediate reaction was a hmhm in a very quick affirmative manner ... he knows ... he's not an amateur like u seem to think he is ...

[@petercurrie7131]

Harris applies modern standards to people from thousands of years ago. Slavery - thousands of years ago - yeah - You mean 3000 years ago there was tribalism? No way! So the non religious 3000 years ago were moral beings like Sam? But yeah force people to take an experimental medication - Sam is all good with following false idols. And he won’t back down Evil done in the name of the state - well that never happens… ?

[@tubsy.]

Why should it be a concern? What value does human life have anyway?

[@Rfh78]

Ex muslim here. Im happy I left that fucking bullshit.

[@steveflor9942]

Religion and critical thinking.... Mutually exclusive.

[@afshinnikkhoo2013]

Sam harris was the only one who Jordan Peterson couldn't overcome with his arguments.

[@JJR1476]

True....

[@mirapilates]

Peterson talks in circles in a nonsense word salad. Peterson got demolished in a debate with Matt Dilahunty.

[@clarkkent1521]

Peterson can't even overcome his own arguments.

[@chriswalker9478]

@@JJR1476 explain how that's true.

[@chriswalker9478]

@@mirapilates Just because he uses words you don't understand, and concepts you don't understand, in your mind that comes down to "oh fuck, it just must be word fucking salad".

[@Knighted357]

And Moh called Ethiopians raisin heads . His favourite slave was the strongest because he could carry the most and Moh gave him a pet name ‘translation’ ship or boat.

[@RossKempOnYourMum01]

Based Mohammed

[@JRECLIPSFAN]

​@@RossKempOnYourMum01Pedo Mohammad

[@knowledgeispower6726]

Actually the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) had a very healthy relationship, and a lot of respect for Ethiopians, who were known as Abyssinians at the time because Ethiopia was called Abyssinia. Some muslims were given refuge in Abyssinia when they were under threat from the leaders of Mecca during the time of the Prophet.

[@Knighted357]

@@knowledgeispower6726 yes but what I have written is correct. Plus slavers did look after their slaves once they were perched because it would be stupid to damage your own goods. The Romans looked after their slaves regardless of what movies depicted.

[@diyachatterjee6933]

An Ethiopian not all Ethiopians in general

[@Scalpaxos]

There can't be a religion claiming to represent the will of its god(s) without being dogmatic, it doesn't work, any claim presented as "divine" can only be dogmatic otherwise it would contradict the claim in the first place, imagine a religion claiming "this is the will of our god, but he might be wrong so let's debate it", a non dogmatic religion would be a religion that admits it could be wrong which goes against the "business model" of religions which is selling certainty, hence the absolute necessity of dogmatism.

[@Boethius411]

There’s two types of believers, both religious and secular. Those who begin believing with the assumption they have found the ultimate answer whether they understand all or not. The faith begins and ends where there’s nothing else to believe. Then there’s the believers who come to believe from a place of ego deflation. They begin with all are fallible, perhaps to the extreme, therefore it is my duty to humble myself before this mysterious thing out there called the good, the true… god , God, etc. It is possible that this may only be communicable existentially and therefore only attainable through imitation. I. E. But by the Grace of God… It’s Jesus on the cross saying Father forgive them. It’s Boethius in prison writing the consolation of philosophy. It’s Socrates in all his wisdom declaring all I know is I know nothing.

[@MrManny075]

What is religion? If you think religion means just a belief and worship you are wrong, religion also means a path the right path and the wrong path, good action and evil action, Nothing happens without God's will, good or bad, People have free choices but not free will because it all comes down to the outcome of the action, Why dogma is used? it's simple to keep people on the right path it's like a deterrent Those who rejected the deterrent want to take total control the question is why? Surely no one can deny there are a lot of bad people in this world, most of them try to justify their actions by all means and they say there is no right and wrong path,

[@rayrwyr]

Hinduism is a far more modern, humane, anti-dogmatic religion in comparison to the Abrahamic religions like Christianity/Islam, because: 1) There is no dogma. People are encouraged to be seekers of the Truth and it is recognized that the Truth may take different forms depending on their individual perspectives. Hence Hinduism is pluralistic, very diverse, allowing both polytheism and monotheism. Hinduism respects all religions equally. There is no superiority complex. That's why Hinduism does not tell Hindus to convert others into Hinduism. There is no absolutely hate or disrespect towards people practicing other religions. 2) Hinduism is truly in tune with the environmentalism. Hinduism encourages (but never dictates) vegetarianism and it says (in Sanskrit) "Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam" which means that the "Entire world is One Family". That means we are all connected, we must be respectful and harmonious with all other humans and all other species. Our prosperity and happiness depend on peaceful harmonious coexistence because we are mutually dependent. A core theme of Hinduism is "Ahimsha" which means Non-violence. Hindus are discouraged from taking lives of other animals even for food. Violence is acceptable only for self-defense and for righteous justice. 3) Hinduism does not have a set of strict "do's and don'ts". It has "should and shouldn't". Hinduism does not rule by fear. It never scare Hindus with the threat of permanent Hell fire. It does not try to lure Hindus with sensual pleasures in Heaven. Hindus do not get special favorable treatment for being Hindus. It all depends on their Karma. Karma and Reincarnation principles are in play for all people (regardless of religion). Love, compassion, and self-sacrifice for the benefit of others (regardless of their religion) are highly encouraged.

[@Scalpaxos]

@@rayrwyr "Convert or we will k**l you, Hindu lynch mobs tell fleeing Christians" -The Guardian 2008 "Hindu mob lynches Muslim rumored to have killed a cow" -Reuters 2015 "India: Vigilante ‘Cow Protection’ Groups Attack Minorities" -Human Rights Watch 2015 "In cow-worshipping India, beef stirs up vigilante violence" -PBS News 2016 "India: ‘Cow Protection’ Spurs Vigilante Violence" -Human Rights Watch 2017 "Emboldened by Modi's ascent, India's cow vigilantes deny Muslims their livelihood" -Reuters 2017 "The Festering Religious Violence That Underpins Modi's India" -Newsweek 2017 "Mob lynches cow smuggling suspect" -Deutsche Welle 2018 "India 'cow vigilantes' lynch three men" -BBC 2019 "The violent rise of India’s cow vigilantes" -Vox 2019 "Religious violence reaches India’s capital as a Hindu mob swarms a church" -NBC News 2023 You were saying?

[@Martin-el5uu]

Can't help but think of Christopher Hitchens when I watch this discussion...😁

[@SuperNzed]

Peterson is tidious, Sam is clear but he ates the whole salad and Christopher (RIP) I feel great, just slightly imagining what he would say to Peterson.

[@mchauhan4]

Sam Harris's point that he doesn't have a problem with religion without dogma actually makes sense for me as well. Those who want to try something like this can look towards Hinduism. It's like a medley of beliefs & gods working under an overarching framework of dialogue & debate. I'm not very religious myself but can vouch for Hinduism's anti-dogmatic roots. The main book of Hinduism, the Bhagvad Gita, is itself a discourse between 2 characters/ Gods - Krishna & Arjuna. There are no commandments whatsoever. Some people take these Gods' lives as the strict ideal to follow but the good thing is everyone is free to have their own interpretations. PS - Stay clear of the Manusmriti please. It's like a law book which is "said" to have been written by a God. It does have commandments (some good, but some anachronistic & rigorous ones as well) & hence is not very widely followed among Hindus themselves.

[@aditisaini556]

When people read the gita or mahabharat, a large majority takes it as ancient history not as fictional epics or something like that, Wouldn't you call that as dogma???

[@kittuojha]

people are dogmatic, not necessarily the religion. There are so many dogmatic hindus I know.

[@calacestar]

When did they have this conversation?

[@georgegrader9038]

Yeah. This is like 2019 or something. Pangburn should document that is description. Maybe I missed it.

[@MarcusN-kp1jn]

2018 I believe

[@tuikupp9750]

J. Peterson thinks he knows everything, but is outclassed by Sam Harris.

[@billybob-vy4sw]

JP doesn't even challenge Sam on his saying that Marxism and soviet violence is linked to religion!

[@TheWorldsprayer]

THey're discussing, not arguing. Further, why challange something that you don't immediately disagree with. You don't have to have a comback to everything you don't completely agree with.

[@billybob-vy4sw]

@@TheWorldsprayer do you think Marxism and Soviet violence is linked by religion?

[@TheWorldsprayer]

in the fact that it becomes a form of religion yes. It's a rule-driven, don't question in heirarchal strcuture that applies the concept of good/bad to following its directives. Further, they can be motivated by religious ideas as well. The original bolsheviks for example were HEAVILY jewish as they directly rejected the invitation to start a jewish state during ww1 and were the reason all the allies secret documents got published. @@billybob-vy4sw

[@ryans1623]

When people communicate respectfully, refreshing, as it was normal thing in the past.

[@lexa5842]

Any time intellectuals discuss the filth of the most obviously fake religion (of pieces), I am happy.

[@jonasilia]

Tell me which that is? Because all religions are obviously fake.

[@F1986R]

They're all the same, Islam is just more effective as a cult

[@sybo59]

They are all ridiculous.

[@Mandems973]

They are all ridiculous, Christianity is the most fake in my “estimation”.

[@joman388]

@@Mandems973 What makes you think Christianity is the most fake as i say it is the only true belief on the face of the earth? thanks

[@guest6398]

Rationalists: "Religion is fiction." Peterson: "Religion is useful." Rationalists: "Whatever. In any event, religion is still fiction. Also, lots of religions are downright monstrous." Peterson: "Religion is full of metaphors. Metaphors can be true, in that they contain deeper truths, and that makes them useful." Rationalists: "Novels are metaphors. They're still fiction, like religion is fiction." Peterson: "Lots of my patients find comfort in religion. Religion is true in that it's useful." What's the point of this discussion? Peterson is always avoiding the actual question presented. I suspect that he'd argue that placebos are real drugs.

[@68Tboy]

@guest6398 Novels are useful…

[@kumaranvij]

Perfect parallel! I gotta remember that one: placebos are real drugs the way religions are based on truth.

[@joemarshall4226]

Who says religion is fiction/ There was no Moses? There was no ten commandments? Buddha didn't give up all his wealth and meditate? Jesus wasn't Crucified, and didn't teach people to love Thy neighbor?

[@sc100ott]

@@kumaranvijBut sometimes people take placebos and get better, possibly due to the psychosomatic effect of the placebo. In such a comparison, could not a religion help a society, not because of any physical change, but a psychological one?

[@matthewalexander3891]

@@joemarshall4226of course it’s fiction, they can’t all be right and clearly it’s not the case that one is and the rest aren’t.

[@inriellux6232]

When Jordan Peterson shaves, he looks like Dennis Reynolds from "Its Always Sunny in Philadelphia".😂😂😂

[@empoweryou1]

How old is this exchange?

[@williammcfarlane6153]

As a psychologist, Jordan Peterson should be completely embarrassed by trying to use ape behavior to justify why religion and religious Dogma are not dangerous... What the ape Behavior shows is that we do have a natural propensity for violence and often reinforced under tribal identification. Religion plays a key part in that it allows a person to justify their natural tendencies as being good because it falls under the dictates are there identify deity. While also being an extremely valuable tool to get people that are hesitant about the violence to follow through or else they're in violation of their deities dictates. Yet again, Jordan Peterson shows that his ideology and Dogma are far more important to him than his reasoning.

[@freeindeed13]

Sam Harris is the most articulate human being I've ever listened to. His shit is tight!

[@tonykhoury5522]

The only problem is, that he is wrong. Other then this i agree

[@rghl5617]

​@@tonykhoury5522he really isn't, muslim.

[@EggMan1066AD]

​@tonykhoury5522 can you elaborate where?.

[@Vilutusk]

@@EggMan1066ADof course he can’t lol his views are as fictitious as his faith

[@janparchanski9242]

@Umbra555 Of course Abdul

[@444NRG]

As a hindu brahmin, when i found out about real islam i felt sad for all indian muslims. i hope everyone in south asia recovers from this disease. 🙏

[@neotralize9110]

Hinduism is also problematic and is hurting South Asia

[@adm7038]

Jai Shri Ram 🙏

[@theodiatraderjay]

​@@neotralize9110best strategy to defend pisslam is to attack on other religion.

[@VikramKumar-oy8gq]

@@neotralize9110 Well Hinduism is not a religion of the book, so it can adapt according to times while just keeping the base of dharma.

[@neotralize9110]

@@VikramKumar-oy8gq not being a religion of the book also allows hundreds of conmen disguised as “gurus” to divide the population into irreconcilable different interpretations of Hinduism, setting them against each other forever while exploiting them for everything they’re a worth.

[@CvW-iy8jt]

When was this recorded? (recent - or a few years ago)

[@kevinc3751]

Harris’ assertion that complete belief in faith that allows for normal or regular people to engage in evil acts does not account for those with proclivity towards sadism and psychopathy where by these people use religious beliefs such as those of ISIS as rationalizations of the worst imaginable violence and hatred toward others. It is important to distinguish between these two possibilities: normal or regular people committing horrible acts vs psychopaths and sociopaths aligning with a faith that allows them to live out their twisted fantasies.

[@brandoncorrie472]

A psychopath and sadist is not necessarily considered a normal person. My interpretation is that a sadistic psychopath can succeed in making a non-sadist non-psychopathic believer to commit said heinous acts in the name of religion. That is the real danger. That the vehicle allows them to get that far because of the conditioning of the religion upon its observers.

[@mentallychallengedforreal]

people were going around enslaving people back in the day, and they weren't sadist or psychopaths. your moral point of reference doesn't work with Islam because their perfect prophet was perfect and whatever he did is worthy of emulation. Just imagine a bunch of people who don't consider slavery wrong, in fact, its the opposite, they think it's completely justified and it's the other people who are stupid for not enslaving other people.

[@hrieyansh]

Entire Arab world still practices slavery in one form or another because all believing Muslims think it's okay to enslave people

[@petercurrie7131]

Fauci is a serial criminal - Harris has faith/ trust in Mr Science.

[@udaisingh2509]

“Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because Allah has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them.” - Qur’an 4:34

[@jaya8729]

So?

[@JimJamJuicy]

Jordan is not a Christian apologist, he’s not even a Christian

[@Pangburn]

You don't need to be a Christian to be a Christian Apologist.

[@JimJamJuicy]

@@Pangburn ok perhaps not, although I wonder why one would defend something they don’t believe in. Aside from that he is not providing a defence of the Christian faith. He is discussing his own theories of mythology and psychology and how they the Bible can fit into that. He is in no way defending the traditional Christian faith.

[@bassbird]

he is christian thou

[@JimJamJuicy]

@@bassbird you either don’t know what a Christian is or haven’t listened to Jordan enough. The first part of Christianity is salvation and this comes through confession of the Lord Jesus as God and Lord of all and belief in your heart that He rose from the dead. Jordan has done neither. He doesn’t even like the question “do you believe” when this question is all through out the Bible as the prerequisite of faith. I’d say he’d be far more a Darwinian then a Christian as he overlays this over everything, even the Bible.

[@cas343]

​@@JimJamJuicyJordan peterson is an adherent of Hume's razor: "You cant can't get an ought from an is." He believes there is a universe of facts and there is a universe of values and they are incompatible. He has picked the side of values. What he doesn't understand is that values COME from biological facts for a given value-er. The concept of "Value" is incoherent without reference to biological life. The chair he's sitting on cannot die and has no preferences regarding its condition or environment. This is why he chooses to defend religio😊n.

[@Bolfeen]

14:13 Dogmatisim also entails perceiving that the notion of "cutting off the thief's hands" involves physically severing their hands with a knife. However, in reality, it signifies preventing them from engaging in such activities again, namely by incarcerating them, a practice observed worldwide. Furthermore, the phrase "cut off" can also be used in the context of terminating access to resources such as water, electricity, or roadways. It does not imply employing a knife to physically sever the road.

[@arlenelewetzow2937]

If the Quran meant to say terminating access it would have written that.

[@bernarduscairncross2221]

Rational wisdom being explored onto religion is incredible...

[@nigelatkinson6920]

Harris just schooled Peterson

[@mikeydoes]

Harris is an idiot, and Peterson is a little smarter. Don't think so. He doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, atheism and religion are both caught in the same duality. We are intelligent energy, simply look inside yourself to see that, but it isn't the words, it something much greater.

[@christopherfiorentino6552]

You're joking right?

[@nigelatkinson6920]

@@christopherfiorentino6552 you must be a hoot at parties if you think that was a joke

[@christopherfiorentino6552]

@@nigelatkinson6920 I was an atheist too, until the day my only child was murdered and I found myself screaming to the heavens "no God please God no" It was then that I reassessed my materialistic world view. I hope you arrive there without such a tragic event. Peace Love and Prosperity brother

[@nigelatkinson6920]

I presume you believe your God wanted your child to die@@christopherfiorentino6552

[@daleblue22]

I'd would love to see Christopher Hitchens debate JP.

[@komradepistoff6584]

...or Stephen Fry.

[@ponygirl1716]

Yes, that would be very interesting, since Hitchens is dead.

[@l3eatalphal3eatalpha]

It was very generous of Harris to take questions from Peterson.

[@larsschilling1794]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/nHephH6bmd5snJY@@komradepistoff6584

[@Critchlow062]

Their rhetorics would clash massively. Just like it did with Dawkins. Hitchens would eat JP alive even if JP had decent points to make. JP values the symbolism of religion and believe that the stories and morals that are embedded in human nature now would not exist at all had it not been for ancient religions and their teachings, he isn’t necessarily interested in whether god exists. Hitchens’ viewpoint is very simple and very easy to understand with little nuance. he is also likely correct which makes it easier to resonate with his audiences. Would be interesting regardless, a shame we will never see it.

[@feministaekhon]

One does not have to believe in a “ Divine” in the Sankhya school of Hinduism in the Mandukya Upanishad and in all schools of Buddhism. Why don’t you guys discuss that? It’s about consciousness, unconscious, etc.

[@Aj-qb3pr]

Hadith. Muhammad had no concubines for most of his life when he was married monogamously to Khadija. Muhammad was sent two women as a gift from the Byzantine ruler of Alexandria and he took one of them, Mariyya, as a concubine Abraham was given a slave to have a child with.

[@cufflink44]

This is not a debate between equals. One participant is crystal-clear and cogent; the other is muddled and befuddled.

[@johanpregl4801]

Jordan Peterson is a really good student--

[@worldsstongeststrains983]

The irony is that when’s scientist finds religion his credibility is held suspect by the scientific community…but if a theologian finds science he is cast out by both.

[@mattsteinle2182]

Sam comprehensively demolishes the simplistic arguments of Peterson.

[@df4250]

This is how intelligent debates are debated. Excellent exchange of intelligent ideas. Well done!!

[@XAE_A_Xii]

I'm not sure they even understand themselves, but yes great intelligence at making sound intelligent

[@df4250]

I Think they pretty well understand each other well enough.@@XAE_A_Xii

[@gmw3083]

​@XAE_A_Xii Also, it turns out they're both zionists who support the ethnic cleansing campaigns of a secular supremacist state that hides behind a mash-up of religious doctrine to justify it's crimes.

[@Chemtrooper46]

@@XAE_A_XiiSam Harris is perfectly normal to understand. Jordan is obviously the one who shoves ten million stupid overlong words into his nonsense to trick stupid people into

[@wallraven55]

@@XAE_A_Xiiso your theory is they are saying words randomly in hopes of sounding correct? Sounds far fetched.

[@2011littlejohn1]

I love Jordan's double standard. He believes in a creator but uses an evolutionary reference - via the chimps to make a point.

[@reallynow6276]

I would argue that Old Israel's religion was a unification of all forms of power. It was at once the center of law, militarism and enforcement of group identity. It was inherently antagonistic to competing groups and was a warring religion. That is also why God was called the Lord of the Host - which refers to armies. Christianity moved away from this and started out as a peace seeking international religion, but which was quickly captured by the Roman politicians and outfitted with new doctrines.

[@jara8653]

I can hear religion is a highly subjective matter. People have tendency to become religious when they overcome an illness. During the process of being ill or shortly after the survived scary time, there may be a strong influence of significant others to drag them into "God's will" talk. What about death, suffering, injustice...also "a will"? Who's will would that be?

[@big_red_machine3547]

The “will” of all the suffering is probably the individual’s own fault- for living a crappy life that attracted all the misery and suffering

[@WisdomSeekingWriter]

That's a discussion of an intense or sustained period of Truth and Wisdom seeking through study, prayer, plain old life experience (suffering, pain and joy) and, most importantly, the willingness to be open to receive. Just because you don't understand things the way others do does not mean that you are wrong in what you have come to understand or believe (as long as your understanding does not contradict God's pure nature). That's why a relationship with God is a journey and not just a destination. You can answer someone's questions, but you can't make them understand. There might come a day that they DO understand, but mutual understanding depends on the spiritual maturity of those involved. That's a very personal journey between you and God and each journey is very unique. Those things that are understood in community are intended for the understanding of the community. That is just one, albeit very important, element of one's belief in God. It is true that the more you come to know, the more you realize how much you don't know. It's a lifelong adventure, full of ups and downs!

[@jara8653]

@@WisdomSeekingWriter I appreciate your cogitation.

[@joemarshall4226]

@@big_red_machine3547 Jesus made it clear that this was not always the case. In fact He said His followers would suffer greatly, and some of them would die for Hissake 11 of His twelve apostles were given the death penalty and tortured first in horrible ways. The twelfth was tortued, but survived. They all prayed for mercy for their killers, just like Jesus did. That is the highest morality ever seen. Suffering and death were brought into the world by the sins of men. But they are leading to a place of eternal life and joy in the next life for those who are true to their callings.

[@wyleecoyotee4252]

They'll make up some excuse or reasoning as to the masochism of their god

[@artwdog]

Sam is Brilliant. JP wasn't listening but waiting to talk.

[@christopherfiorentino6552]

Sam is dull

[@artwdog]

Maybe to the uninitiated.@@christopherfiorentino6552

[@elmoblatch9787]

Sam nails it, as usual.

[@hebber1961]

As usual? Not when his TDS comes into play. Embarrassingly bad for him.

[@chamuuemura5314]

His views on those not lining up to lock themselves down and experiment medically also resembled the worst of aspects of those he criticizes.

[@cortical1]

Sam goes too easy here on religion. He needs to follow through. He says that the only thing wrong with religion is its dogmatism, and thereby implies that religion without dogmatism is okay. The problem is that religion is actually inherently dogmatic. All religions reauire beliefs in supernatural beings, events, and powers for which there exists absolutely zero objective evidence. Such beliefs are dogma through and through. The only way for the human race to move past this destructive dogmatic thinking is by shedding religion. ☀️🧠📚

[@TheWorldsprayer]

The problem though is religion/dogma is needed for societies to function. You have to have an agreed upon "absolute truth" on certain things, otherwise you wind up with societies where anything goes including murder and rape. That's what religion was for in the first place: Uniting communites together so they could be larger than the maximum 150 people tribes that non-religion is limited to.

[@cortical1]

@@TheWorldsprayer Not true at all. Some of the largest, most thriving societies in the world today aren't even a majority religious like Sweden and Japan. And they have some of the lowest overall crime rates and homicide rates of any country.

[@TheWorldsprayer]

Thats because theyve had thousands of years of developing. Both the regions you mention USED to be very religious regions. Religion has now been replaced by law and nationalism however. During the rise of our species however its considered fact that relgion was the mechanism by which tribes grew to be able to establish communities large enough to make cities.@@cortical1

[@tubsy.]

Such a dumb thing to say

[@cortical1]

@@tubsy.What's dumb about it specifically? 🇺🇸

[@finalio]

Source: eventhough I dont know Arabic, trust me bro

[@ZBspicey]

For those who know nothing what Islam preaches about slavery here it is: In Islam there is no slavery accept to Allah (God). As the prophet Muhammad said "Let not anyone of you say my slave, all of you are the slaves of God". As for captives taken post-war the prophet said "they are merely your brothers that Allah has placed under your care, feed him what you eat, dress him with what you dress, do not burden him scope, and if you place upon him a duty that he cannot bare make sure you assist him". He also said "Whoever kills anyone under his care then we will kill him". The prophet saw a man beating his slave and said to him "Allah is more capable to do that to you". The man let the slave go. The prophet then said "Had you not freed him, you wouldve surely entered hell fire". Further hadiths: The Prophet said, "Allah said, 'I will be an opponent to three types of people on the Day of Resurrection: One of them is the one who sells a free person and eats his price. (Sahih Al Bukhari, Hadith no 2270) The Prophet said: There are three types of people whose prayer is not accepted by Allah: One of them is a man who takes into slavery a freed person. (Ibn Majah, hadith no 970) He who emancipates a slave, Allah will set free from Hell every limb (of his body) for every limb of his (slave's) body. (Sahih Muslim, hadith no 1509) In the Quran (90:12-90:17) “What will explain to you what the ascent is? (13)It is the freeing of a slave; (14)or the feeding in times of famine (15)of an orphaned relative (16)or some needy person in distress, (17)and to be one of those who believe and urge one another to steadfastness and compassion.” So clearly "slavery" in Islam is not the western idea of slavery. There was great wisdom in not instantaneously abolishing slavery. Islam made the removal of slavery from society a gradual process, so that society may be free of it and the poor and helpless won’t suffer in the process.

[@Sanjay-lt9pw]

Lesson that Peterson learnt: It is one thing to lecture and impress young and unprepared students and totally another thing to sit in front of Sam Harris in a debate and be able to make a cogent counter-point...

[@taigenraine]

I mean the video cuts off before Peterson can give his rebuttal to Sam's last point. I didn't hear any point Peterson made that sounded foolish or wrong. In fact Sam agreed with most. I think you have to be fairly predisposed toward Sam to come away with that viewpoint. Just like was discussed here, you also have to be careful not to fall into secular dogmatism.

[@grendlsma]

@@taigenraine watch more of these debates. It becomes clear pretty early on that Peterson is out of his depths. He begins to only bring up points he knows Harris will agree with....

[@BobDingus-bh3pd]

@@grendlsmait’s a four part 8 hour series. Also Sam and Jordan have had multiple long form engagements. So either Sam agrees there is substance in their conversations. Or he just really enjoys Peterson’s company.

[@grendlsma]

@@BobDingus-bh3pd or he sees it as an opportunity to debunk quackery....and collect a paycheck at the same time.

[@BobDingus-bh3pd]

@@grendlsma it takes 8+ hours and a facade of academic decorum to debunk quackery?

[@elfboy29]

Sam is a patient adult accomodating a child here.

[@rexsceleratorum1632]

The title is slightly off. Mo's biography is in the hadith and the sirat. Not in the Quran. An easy mistake to make from a Christian background.

[@jochuba]

The problem with Quran is it is an ambitious text. Randomly arranged verses written in prose and lacking details. Just short lines that rhyme. Most of the Quran is talking about Moses and stories of the old testament. The few verses with instructions do though mention some punishments like crucifixion and amputation of hand and feet. Other few verses discus sex and marriage rules and also inheritance. The Quran is read in the light of interpretation (called tafasir in Arabic) in which there are a few big book series. More over the religious authorities base their rules on 2 pillars, the Quran (by the interpretations) and the Sunna (The deeds and saying of prophit Mohammed). The Sunna is even more problematic than the Quran because it is so variable, inconsistent, and loosely verified to be true in a small percentage. If a Muslim degree with the Quran or Sunna, he or she will become apostate, a crime punishable by death. Making big changes in Islam by making new interpretations is not permissible. Minor changes are allowed based on picking out of few different views from the past or by making certain rules conditional without negating the principal.

[@davidconlee2196]

I love JP, but does he even claim to be a Christian? Let alone a Christian apologist?

[@Pangburn]

You can be an atheist and a Christian Apologist.

[@cohort075]

@@Pangburn Could you please give one example of an atheist Christian apologist? If such a person exists, and don’t say JP, he’s still working out what he believes, and as far as Sam Harris is concerned, I really wouldn’t believe a single thing that he has to say. I heard him on a KZbin channel bare face lying to an audience about what Jesus said in the Bible, and could not believe how blatantly he lied about it, taken from a parable Jesus used as an example, of what not to do, but Sam twisted it into a massive lie.

[@djinnxx7050]

"I act as if though god exists." Sounds like a somewhat apologetic phrase to me. Which god must that be, I think we can safely assume it's not fucking Zeus. Although I'd quite enjoy seeing Jordan trying to revive long dead deities, that'll be amusing. The fact is, if you can say "God, as depicted in the bible, is a bit of a tyrant.", and bit is putting it mildly, then say "Christianity has brought us a lot of good, despite all the bad", and then say "Authoritarianism and tyrants are always bad.", I'd wager that you're either being an apologist, or you let go of the logical thread somewhere along the line. Religion is the height of authoritarianism, an authority so unquestionable, it doesn't even exist. Jordan is too intelligent to let go of a logical thread, even with all his fucking drivel along the way. He's an apologetic, he makes excuses for religion, for god, whilst failing to make those same excuses for secular ideologies and tyrants that actually exist. I'm not saying secular tyrants and authoritarian ideolgies are good before you make that attempt at character assassination, I'm saying both are bad and it takes an apologist to fail to acknowledge it, and an idiot to fail at recognising it. Whats funny is even the supposed believers will correctly point to a tyrant and denounce them as monsters, yet anyone points to the same qualities in their god, and suddenly it's okay, they try to play it off and explain it away as "context" and "interpretation". It makes me wonder, is it only okay because deep down they know that god doesn't exist, that he is of no genuine threat, despite supposedly being all powerful and that.

[@Suite_annamite]

@@Pangburn : In places like Spain, France, Russia, or indeed here in Québec (French Canada), there are indeed people who call themselves "Muslim atheists": claiming that Islam is their "cultural heritage" although they don't actually practice or even believe in it.

[@h4rder10]

just cos they call themselves dont mean they become or it is possible to become. they dont believe in the core of islam they just like the periphery. they dont like the Allah part they just like the dresses, words, songs the style of the muslim culture.@@Suite_annamite

[@darthnihilus511]

They do not play well with others for sure and in today’s world that means dead people 😢

[@ainsleystevenson9198]

The dogma that needs to be corrected concerns the character of the god we worship, because we become what we worship. We worship a god who judges, condemns and punishes his enemies, he even burns them in pain, suffering, agony and torment throughout all eternity. Perhaps it’s time to reconsider Jesus’ revolutionary idea, that of worshipping an entirely different god whose character doesn’t resemble Satans. Jesus claimed to show us this god by being the exact image of him. Rather than god being a lawless sinner Jesus revealed a law-full sinless god who loved and forgave his enemies, so much so that he freely gave himself as a living sacrifice, allowing his enemies to judge, condemn, torture and kill him, on a cross. Early believers were converted to this new god, which is why the went from selfishly cutting off soldiers ears and killing Christian’s, to selflessly giving their own lives for others. Jesus’ god has long been forgotten, perhaps we should reinvent him.

[@tommorris8066]

Very powerfully put: "Jesus’ god has long been forgotten, perhaps we should reinvent him."

[@URAZKIVANER]

Why do I have to believe a person who claims that God is not what you think and claims that he is the reflection of the actual God who is loving and forgiving. There are lots of people like this in the world which do not claim to be son of God or reflection of God. Just simple people who use their rationality and logic to come up with pretty simplistic morality. " Treat other people like you wanna be treated " ... Done ! I am an atheist living in a muslim country and even I can tell you that ISIS does not represent ISLAM whatever they say. All these books including Bible were written in an Era where people needed guidance . Because Medieval times were rough for everybody . And Religion "unquestionable faith" was the perfect medicine for this reason alone for that time. You can not expect people in this technology era who are able to question everything and get actual objective answers with one click to believe in a magical being controlling everything rewarding or punishing people who deserve either...

[@kumaranvij]

How do we know that Jesus "freely have himself as a living sacrifice"? Even assuming that the story of the crucifixion is true? He didn't have time to explain this to Mark, Luke, and the other guy before he got taken and killed. That's just a story people believe because...why exactly?

[@ainsleystevenson9198]

@@URAZKIVANER Nobody needs to believe in ‘God’ but we do need to believe in love and goodness in order to survive…but perhaps ‘God is love’ and Jesus love and goodness personified.

[@ainsleystevenson9198]

@@kumaranvij Its an age old conflict relatable to any time and people…in the beginning God claimed to be worthy of worship because he was ‘good’ and said sin destroys humanity, but, Satan implied God is not good and suggested we shall surely not die if we sin. God claimed Satan was a liar and murderer, Satan suggested God was the liar and murderer. Wether God exists or not the issue remains true, goodness leads to life and evil leads to death, sadly Satans claim of evil leading to eternal life is believed by too many, even the Christian church believes Satans claim that God is not good (he is unforgiving and punitive) as well as sin not harming sinners (hence God needs to burn them in hell). What we believe determines our behaviour.

[@MG-ot2yr]

And just look how dishonest the religious have had to become to continue to push this nonsense, not that it hasn't always been a lie perpetrated on the masses, but as skepticism has risen greatly it has created a more conscious effort among the religious to defend it. Take the slavery issue as an example, the popular apologetics of today is either completely ignoring the chattel slavery, and sex slavery of the Bible or painting it as being better for the slaves and only addressing indentured servitude that had a 7 year limit. Its mind blowing hearing a Christian defend this stuff.....so heck yea Sam is right, dogmatism is incredibly dangerous when it keeps people's minds and ethical views locked into the Iron or Bronze ages.

[@djinnxx7050]

You're spot on, they're just sinking lower to preserve what little grasp they have left on it. It's a positive sign that we're winning, at least on the intellectual front. Sadly, they're still outbreeding us. There simply ain't enough lions in the world to deal with all of them Apart from that, enough with the "chattel slavery" bollocks, slavery is slavery, it can't get any worse than deprivation of individual freedom. Stop with your own ideological delusions before you criticise others for theirs.

[@jamescurrie2246]

The Bible is a bedtime story, bathroom reader, coffee table book, anthology of references(a library basically), operators manual, etc... The records, allegories, and instructions contained within the Bible are all designed to help you answer the question of "what the hell is going on?". It's a question that is asked hundreds of times a day by everyone on some level. That's what all books do. The Bible has just been practicing a long time.

[@chebochitalu6543]

Yes, the bible covers centuries of Jewish history. No book can be compared to it.

[@luisclaudiodaltro4064]

If it s totalitarian.... it s religious

[@Uranus_is_the_size_of_a_planet]

Soviet Union was state enforced atheism. North Korea is not particularly religious. Nazi regime sent the priests to the camps. C̶o̶m̶m̶u̶n̶i̶s̶t̶ Fascist China is quite atheist too for some reason.

[@joemarshall4226]

The good religions are attempting to find ways to AVOID violence against other humans.

[@itsROMPERS...]

That leaves out Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

[@hijodelsoldeoriente]

​@@itsROMPERS...Indeed. But it's naiveté to not recognize that Islam is invoked more to justify violence compared to the other two. Don't get me wrong, I've seen Jewish or Christian extremism. But Islam takes it up a notch. Just in my country which is predominantly Roman Catholic with a Muslim minority, there are more than 3 Islamic terrorists groups. One even pledged allegiance to ISIS and razed a predominantly Muslim city.

[@edus9636]

@@itsROMPERS... Incorrect, jihad is unique.

[@RoyilBlue-vp1ut]

I don't trust anyone who claims god speaks to them, that he is watching us 24/7 and that their supposed god is all loving. clearly none of that is evidenced and is more akin to brainwashed madness.

[@RoyilBlue-vp1ut]

All supernatural beliefs are dangerous, they are all promoting faith without reason looking forward to death and no reason to live. or worse the bible quran and torah/talmud are books that violent and hate filled they would make freddy kruger cringe.

[@4bidden1]

4:09 Nerds agreeing on something..crowd goes wild 😂

[@bigbong620]

My thoughts precisely. 🤣🤣

[@udaisingh2509]

“Your women are a tilth for you, so go to your tilth as you will” - Qur’an 2:223

[@okiepita50t-town28]

This video clearly shows the difference between a rational man and one who has been so indoctrinated that he just can’t let go of his baseless beliefs. Keep telling it like it is Sam.

[@Johnrider1234]

Yes. Keep being a idiot fool sam

[@jakethehuman7]

It's just a conversation between 2 smart guys who are trying to figure the truth out..

[@kenkonundrum5538]

On the subject of religion, Petersen seems to feel a need to "protect" his followers who he thinks psychologically need to believe in christianity, so he creates confusion and obfuscates trying to keep such sensitive souls from being confronted with the reality that all religions are man-made and archaic.

[@wyleecoyotee4252]

​@@jakethehuman7 Truth is atheism

[@SmugAmerican]

​@wyleecoyotee4252 Atheists just made up how they think reality works based on what they know about their world, creating facts without evidence. That's what religion does. It's fair to claim a religion is wrong or archaic. It's religious to claim there is no god or soul.

[@PrometheanRising]

It's not that hard to understand, Jordan, totalitarianism and deism both require faith.

[@big_red_machine3547]

How would someone under totalitarian control have faith in anything? Other than “Master cares for me?”

[@PrometheanRising]

@@big_red_machine3547 Have faith that communism is the beat system Have faith that the leaders are the best. Have faith that the new 5 year plan is going to work. Have faith that if the dissenters are crushed that everything will finally manage to work. It goes on and on. I am reminded of a joke. In the old Soviet Union a man meets his neighbor on the street and after they exchange pleasantries his neighbor inquires, 'how do you like the new 5-year plan?' The man looks around and gestures to his neighbor to follow him to a nearby alley. After arriving in the alley, he furtively looks around and gestures his neighbor to follow him inside a nearby bulding. At this point, he looks up and down the stairwell, still feeling anxiety, and gestures for his neighbor to follow him to the boiler room. Once they arrive, he locks the door, and his neighbor looks at him and asks 'well?' to which he replies, 'Actually, I kind of like it.'

[@odins_claw]

Nice and concisely put though you may have to compress it more for it to get past jordans impenetrable ego

[@apow3rs]

How remotely did Jane Goodall observe these primates? My feeling, much like certain misgivings I have about how ‘complete’ the double slit experiment is [as there is at least one experiment that hasn’t been performed], is it possible Jane’s acceptance into the group caused the others to seek out more primates like ‘her’? To put it another way, was her presence in the group what lead to the attack? 1. Either seeing her as a threat, so wanting to end the bloodline that brought her into existence? 2. Or looking for a mate like her to find a competing tribe who otherwise would have lived peacefully? The primates’ World view would have been entirely located to what they knew. So QED Jane CLEARLY must have come from the other group they attacked. No? One other the point I’d like to raise, as I’m not familiar with the Quran, but surely if the commandment is to take someone’s hand for what they have stolen, then the person taking “the hand” has also stolen a hand? Ad infinitum. I do realise that’s not the current interpretation, but when Jesus said “he without sin, cast the first stone” I don’t think he was calling for a stoning, but the reverse? You could even argue perhaps, the meaning is to remove The Hamsa from someone’s door to show they’re a thief. The Hamsa 🖐️ is a symbol of protection like the evil eye 🧿, so aside from the shame it would have caused having it removed, there would have been a spiritual price as well. Tyr the son of Odin [or Hymir] lost his hand when it was bitten off by Fenrir the Wolf [In order to get Fenrir on a leash he sacrificed his hand]. Tyre in Lebanon was central to Bronze Age life, dyes, metals etc. How did Tyre get its name? Valhalla… alla… Before I descend into Star Wars and Luke Skywalker also losing his hand. 👋 In conclusion when David Berkowitz (Son of Sam) testimony revealed he believed his dog had told him to be a serial killer, it wasn’t the spirit of Fenrir The Wolf but a mentally ill man who had a limited understanding of the World he lived in based on many contributing factors. So if anyone who reads or thinks anything can’t separate themselves from their own thoughts or the text, they probably won’t understand either. 🖐️🐺

[@wallraven55]

This might blow your mind but anyone can do the double slit experiment. I did it myself in my college physics class. You just need a laser pointer and a hair.

[@apow3rs]

Hello @@wallraven55 are you Muninn or Huginn? 🥁 Hope you’re having a nice weekend. Some of my reply will include my sense of humour. So… Not to go into too many details but my ‘additional’ experiment would require a piece of equipment not in my possession. Briefly it’s about logical fallacies in Quantum Theory that depend on binary logic gates in order to function, which given ‘probability’ is like calling the wall a plate coz you’ve just thrown your sandwich at it, but yes I also went to High School and saw plenty of slits, thank you 🔭🔬🧿😉🫣😵‍💫🤌🤜👍

[@comebychance]

Interesting conversation.

[@HardleyJ]

A significant distinction is being missed if one argues simplistically that religion in itself generates the horrors that Peterson argues can also exist without it. It makes no more sense than arguing that atheism can be the basis of abhorrent behaviour. The simple fact is that humans, like chimps, are capable of horrific acts - starting at competitive territorial aggression and going on from there. This instinct is innate but that doesn't mean it is useful for us as a species which has evolved to form, and is reliant on, sophisticated civilizations to function. Controlling that instinct is the purpose of social conventions, laws and education. The argument should be, in the case of Abrahamic religions, that the authors when creating their "founding documents" have overtly justified: cruelty, violence, slavery, rape, etc. to satisfy their own objectives. This is because these are written by humans, not divine entities. The extant culture of the time is woven into the philosophies they espouse. The same can be said of the "authors" of other dogmatic philosophies such as fascism, Nazism, totalitarianism. Just as extreme political philosophies are repugnant and harmful, religions lean towards control of thought in favour of a (usually self-appointed) ruling class. This is why any dogmatic philosophy is dangerous. Weaning humanity off religion would be a great start but that is far from the end of the problem.

[@johnsmithers8913]

True. Saying this or that philosophy causes violence therefore it's bad is like blaming a murder on the gun. Mankind fights for the same thing all organisms fight for, dominance, resources, the right to reproduce, greed. Religion, philosophies, national mythologies are just tools to organize armies to get them to take the desired resources.

[@joemarshall4226]

But what you say applies to Islam and Judaism to some extent, but absolutely not to Christianity. Jesus championed the poor, not the rulng class. he championed selfless service and voluntary poverty, not riches. He decried violence, even telling His followers to "turn the other cheek" ratter than fight back. He died a non-violent martyr, praying for the forgiveness of His killers as he died.

[@marciateperman8811]

​@@joemarshall4226please explain how it applies to Judaism?.

[@joemarshall4226]

@@marciateperman8811 The Old Testament is replete with wars. Defensive and aggressive, including the battle of Jericho, where every man woman and child were slaughtered, save on woman and her family...all in the name of God.

[@joemarshall4226]

In the New Testament, Jesus did not act violently, or promote war or violence. He taught His followers to turn the other cheek, seek no vengeance, love thier enemies and pray for those who persecute them. 11 of His twelve Apostles were tortured and executed, forgiving their enemies with their last breaths, as their Master had done.

[@bernarduscairncross2221]

How often do we as humans accept responsibility and accountability for our actions?

[@rtarz5191]

Have they read Deuteronomy?

[@Enoch-Root]

I'd really love to see someone push back against Jordan when he tries to reword what they've said into some kind of exacting generalized statement and say "no that's not what I'm saying" and repeat exactly what they just said. It seems like Peterson would have difficulty coping with being forced to have a clear and easy to follow conversation that doesn't allow him to try to show off his obscure vocabulary.

[@Tennethums1]

Ain’t that the fuggin truth! I’ve always thought Peterson tries to inflate arguments by inserting pretentious word salads that amount to nothing in the end.

[@jacknilsson8767]

Truth matters even if you don't think so

[@Enoch-Root]

@@jacknilsson8767 it's the fact that Jordan often intentionally tries to obfuscate the truth by making things overly complicated, so that most people can't follow what he's saying, and then he starts inserting religious nonsense. It's an argument technique known as sophism.

[@wallraven55]

Jordan has stated exactly why he does this. He believes that in relationships, therapy, and debate. It helps to clarify that you understood the other person’s argument by repeating it back to them in a way they agree with. Its not something I agree with but do with the truth as you see fit.

[@SicMundus7]

Truly! Hopefully we will at some point.

[@BillieJolene1]

This is rough to watch. Clearly Sam likes Jordan (I do too) but Jordan is clearly trying desperately not to have his "beliefs" changed or even consider how ridiculous they are. That's fine, people do that. I suppose no one likes to be taken out of their comfort zone, especially when they've been sitting in it for over 50 years. I'm so glad that although as a child I was brow-beaten into religion, so much so that as a teenager I read the bible at least 20 times front to cover thinking I'd missed something and that I HAD to find the "answer" or I'd go to hell, the fear was overwhelming. By the time I was 19 I realized that the reason it makes NO SENSE is because it's nonsense. I've never felt better about myself. I never looked back. And fear is gone.

[@jmccullough662]

How do you explain the world and your purpose in it?

[@h4rder10]

so what r u doing now in life?

[@It__From__Bit]

It's interesting how in the thumbnail Sam has a slight, inviting smile on his face, while Jordan looks like he's struggling hard to put on an authoritative face. It might have something to do with Sam's years of meditation, I think. Sam gets his share of criticism, but you don't see him getting all riled up about it like Peterson does. You can really see the death stare in Peterson's eyes when he's involved in a confrontational interview.

[@captainscarlett1]

Intellectually, Harris makes Peterson look like a dunce.

[@MrTrilly1]

I still fined it incredible that there are still religious people in the 21st century. With the vast scientific evidence available. I liken it to the belief in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus, which we abandon as we lost our childhood. But yet some adults still believe in some supernatural being that we should worship. Jordan Peterson and people like Ben Shapiro are very clever people but as soon as they quote religion my opinion of them plummets.

[@quietus13]

I agree. And Sam Harris I held in high regard until his absurd justifications for extreme COVID measures as well as his intense Trump Derangement syndrome. And I was in favor of some degree of public health measures and I am highly critical of Trump. Harris just took those positions to an irrational extreme. It just goes to show you that even the most intelligent of people can still be idiots sometimes.

[@scarletsletter4466]

People like you are too smart for your own good. Spirituality isn’t “believing in the tooth fairy.” The tooth fairy doesn’t help you, whereas maintaining a spiritual/ religious practice DOES, because it’s an innate human need. Research shows spiritual/ religious people have healthier, wealthier, happier & longer lives. In medicine, we see belief improves outcomes in every area. Whether you call that the placebo effect, God, the power of positive thinking, or law of attraction- it works. If I get cancer, I’d like to have that extra bonus % chance of recovery that is bestowed on believers- wouldn’t you? Atheism gets you nothing. Humans are unique in that our actions impact our beliefs and then our beliefs actually impact our physical experience & even the health of our bodies. FWIW I’m a neuro and I think many of us become spiritual/ religious after gaining a deeper understanding of the mind-body connection. When you start to see the outright supernatural way the human brain can create and heal physical diseases in the body based on our beliefs, it isn’t a far leap to say we each have a soul that will experience an afterlife that conforms to our beliefs. Remember the 1st law of thermodynamics: Energy is never lost, it only changes form

[@djinnxx7050]

@@scarletsletter4466 "Atheism gets you nothing." There we go, said it all in a single sentence. Atheism is a selfless act.

[@quietus13]

@@scarletsletter4466 everything you said was wrong. There are some studies that do show a slight positive effect of spirituality on health outcomes, but no more than a placebo, while there are others that show no statistical impact while still others show it's actual HARMFUL. The sample size and methodology of many of these studies are dubious. Meta analysis of the body of work shows no statistically significant effect, no more effect than wishing on a star or a lucky rabbits foot. If it did have any meaningful impact there would be a chaplain involved in every medical procedure to ensure the best outcome. It's curious that health outcomes are directly proportional to the historically established statistics. If cancer A has a death rate of 50% and cancer B has a death rate of 90%, over the aggregate when controlling for other variables (such as age, quality of care, etc) diseases kill people of all religions or no religion all the same. And conditions with a 0% chance of improvement, such as amputation, have never ever in recorded history been reversed no matter how large the prayer circle or spiritually pure the victim. In combat, there is no statistically significant divine favor to any soldier of any faith or lack of faith, bullets kill all equally well no matter their chosen imaginary deity. I believe in freedom, to include the freedom to believe whatever nonsense one chooses, but don't go trying to spread some BS like how it can affect our physical experience. It can surely affect one's psychological experience, but that is a subjective one that only exists in one's mind, just like their God.

[@bigtam462]

I cant listen to Jordon on on his 'belief ' in a god or that he 'acts' as if god is real, its truly painful .....Sam makes much more sense and clarity on his position.....

[@impressions9558]

My exmuslim brother in law gives the same cases for why he left the faith. He had to be consequent with what he read and at a certain point decide to become a terrorist or not. A friend of his just left one day to Southern Yemen to join @l Q@ed@.

[@jn846]

Sam Harris started to say something actually meaningful about the nature of spirituality. In my studies of world religions and spiritual practices you can find that level on which there are universal truths. Most religions started out being spiritual practices and principles. But they got corrupted because of course the people in positions of power realized they could use them for their benefit - greed, lust, control, power, etc! True spiritual practices still exist today but they don't get a lot of press time. That's because the true practice is an inward journey to knowledge you already have internally. A large part is centered around the knowledge of understanding the influence your ego has on everything you think and do. And what is the part of you that connects with the eternal consciousness some call the soul. The soul is your higher consciousness which enlightened masters have mastered the connection with. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of people who have made progress in the realm of spiritual practices and use that knowledge and expertise in the same way that religions have been corrupted. So called spiritual practices are replete with charlatans so you need to stay on your toes or you can get caught up in the wrong crowd and follow someone down a rabbit hole.

[@analoguejerry9066]

Religion is not about ideas, religion is about rituals - Taleb Nassim.

[@StevenWolfe-lx8js]

Why are people still taking JP as a serious person? He sold out for $$$ clicks and people liked him after he said I act as if god exists.

[@havenbastion]

Wrong,Brett. The common core of all versions of religion IS dogma. If dogma is the problem, all versions of religion are a subset of the problem, not distinct from it.

[@kumaranvij]

Makes sense. All the major ones are, indeed, very dogmatic.

[@havenbastion]

@@kumaranvij Even the ones with a distinct philosophical side, ie Buddhism, still have dogmatic principles at a metaphysical level, life after death in particular. I've never heard of a "real" religion that didn't subscribe to at least that.

[@arzhangrafii]

I've watched every debate between these two. They are brilliant. JP got truly challenged on his beliefs in these debates and has never recovered since.

[@joemarshall4226]

JP doesn't really believe in Christianity. He just thinks that religions are a good thing. And he admires the wisdom in Jesus's teachings. There is a tendency to lump the "abrahamic religions" all together by some atheists, complaining that many of their teachings are amoral in this modern world. But Christianity is different. It's just what is needed today. It doesn't promote war or violence, and does promote care of the environment and brotherly love among all men and women.

[@arzhangrafii]

@@joemarshall4226 It was pointed out in one of the debates that JP has a different definition of Christianity. He defines a good person as Christian, even if he professes to be an athiest. Which is a very twisted and confusing view. On your other point, I do agree that the modern Christianity is the best of the Abrahamic religions today. But it is a massively diluted one. Christianity has been watered down and combined with modern morality through the centuries in the Western world and a lot of the horrific bits have been 'thrown out'. The modern secular morality is by far superior, as it is revisable.

[@joemarshall4226]

@@arzhangrafiiDoesn't make sense, does it? Especially since Jesus said, “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “No one is good except God alone.

[@Laniokea]

@@joemarshall4226 Please don’t keep deluding yourself. The Bible is the most violent book I have ever read. God himself kills babies or commands their murder. There is slavery, rape, incest, genocide, honor killings, mass murder of different religion priests, corruption… it is everywhere in the Old Testament. I don’t know why there is a tendency by Christians to ignore or condone that. The god of the Old Testament is the worst amoral character ever and yet Christians try to portrait him as the source of all morality.

[@joman388]

@@joemarshall4226 Yes Jesus was calling Himself God once again as Jesus did such quite often,its just folks do not want to hear such. thanks

[@LordEsel88]

James Lindsay argue that the modern political ideologies like Communism and Nazism are in fact Gnostic religions.

[@analoguejerry9066]

He is right. All revolutionary ideologies are secular versions of Gnosticism: this world is hell, and we must strive to turn into into paradise.

[@LonexX18]

@@analoguejerry9066 I suppose the truth of the claim then depends entirely on your personal position in life. Not just your economic situation in any given place, but even the country or continent you were born in, your interactions with other people and the heirarchical structures you are bound or not bound by, wether you are healthy or sick, etc...

[@njhoepner]

I understand why he might think that...but the claim really stretches the meaning of religion to the point that it no longer means anything.

[@nenadmandic7150]

What I am confused about is that it seems to me that communism is related atheism (the attrocities of Stallin can be related to communism but not necessarily to atheism) and that atheism is related to evolution theory (i mean if you are an atheist you may not necessaily subscribe to evolution theory); but very good discussion indeed.

[@wallraven55]

Atheism is not a belief. It is the opposite of belief. You are an atheist towards the god Zeus. How much does that say about you?

[@nenadmandic7150]

I am not sure I understand the response. I am not questioning or discussing the meaning of atheism and your eplanation that "Atheism is not a belief. It is the opposite of belief" is exactly that - explaining the meaning of the word 'atheism'. My comment was more that for some people atheism seems to be more than what you have just explained; they seem to interpolate the meaning of atheist as being for example a communist or subscribing to evolution theory etc. and my comment was it could be more than just that. Perhaps, one can be an atheist and not agree to evolution in all aspects.

[@GetMeThere1]

I wish Sam had brought up the "Isis sex slave" point when arguing with Ben Affleck on Bill Maher's show.

[@jasontito7644]

Affleck is arabic in origin..Affleck family is famous for founding the Baath party in the Levant . thats is why is loves Isis

[@canyegane2406]

i don't know how much Sam Harris was paid for this debate but he deserves every cent of it for having to suffer through Peterson's bs

[@graemem111]

Hell, YEAH! Even speaking as an atheist, Sam literally has the ‘patience of a saint’!!

[@kumaranvij]

I'm sure Peterson's team drove the price up. He's known to demand high speaking fees. I hope Harris demanded equal pay.

[@ronmullick253]

He is long winded and takes forever to make (usually a lame) point. Turn the speed up to 1.75 when he is talking and you wont miss a thing.

[@davidwhite8220]

Peterson, though he does have much wisdom within his field, has a bad tendency to produce "high-sounding nonsense".

[@WeakestYogurtEnjoyer]

Jordan Peterson is not a Christian apologist

[@ChillAssTurtle]

Dear abrahamic theists, child sex slavery is bad.

[@djinnxx7050]

Just leaving a comment here so I can see if anyone actually attempts to defend such things. It's unlikely, but you never know.

[@nunya54]

There was no child sex slavery in Islam.

[@nunya54]

In Islam? Yes, its defended since it's not allowed to have sex with children in Islam@@djinnxx7050

[@djinnxx7050]

@@nunya54 Please be willing to bet a billion, and actually have a billion to bet with. I feel I'm about to hit the big time...

[@richardlouis1284]

Sam Harris is the quintessential public intellectual 👏

[@BonusHole]

Except the Trump Derangement Syndrome. "Who would have cared if Hunter Biden had dead children in his basement - we needed to get rid of Trump" Real intellectual heavyweight right there.

[@sc100ott]

Yet the other 2 on stage are brighter than he is, and it might not be close.

[@rememberingme983]

I'm assuming the position of an alien for a moment, looking from outside this whole event. What I see is a group of humans applauding two other humans simply because they agree on a point. I would highly recommend all watching to rather learn to communicate honestly of your ideas and feelings through having this type of conversations for yourself. In this way you may learn more for and about yourself, though just as importantly, you will increasingly discover an openness, the natural feeling of which increasingly joyful, and this is what truly contributes to a healthy society.

[@big_red_machine3547]

I’ll take some of your shrooms please! 🥰

[@jimquinn2431]

Anyone else suspect that Peterson's recent reawakening to Christianity is slick marketing /pandering to his now substantial audience.

[@nunya54]

Stay mad Muslims will never apologize for what their God allowed or directly revealed. Let the other manmade religions do that.

[@jimmyjambon9206]

The ending of this cut is brilliant. Perterson, "ok so..". lol poor Jordy.

[@h4rder10]

i think u should stick to watch football matches where u root for one and mock the other ... intellectual debates are not for u ... i mean it ...

[@jimmyjambon9206]

@@h4rder10 Sure. It was a comment on the brilliant closure of a video, and the outing of a shapeshifting donkey. So… Keep telling yourself you are brilliant.

[@metinkopan7933]

Would been nice if there was a Muslim scholar on stage so that he could react to whats all been said in regards Islam and Koran and Muslims.

[@FaustVaz]

The Koran is as fiction as the bible.

[@arlenelewetzow2937]

A Muslim scholar could explain how rape, murder is justified by their “holy” book.

[@nunya54]

Nothing in the Koran has been found to be false; the Bible, quite much@@FaustVaz

[@nunya54]

Rape is not justified in Islam. Murder is only done as capital punishment in the judicial system@@arlenelewetzow2937

[@FaustVaz]

@@nunya54 have you read the book at all? I was being nice when I used the word "fiction". Both the Quran and bible are lies. They are full of lies.