Plagiarism in Classical Music

In this video I discuss my opinion on musical "plagiarism", from the perspective of a classical composer and musician.
I also give zoom composition lessons:
calendly.com/musicauniversalis
A special thanks as always to musopen.org and imslp.org for offering free public domain sheet music and recordings online.

[@baronvonbeandip]

Imagine if Rossini claimed copyright on William Tell Overture. Shostakovich wouldn't be able to make music.

[@snorefest1621]

Shostakovich's obsession over DSCH motif vs Shostakovich's addiction to William Tell Overture

[@tamed4171]

I think I find it more impressive than anything that you could subconsciously turn the jeopardy jingle into a really beautiful flowing melody like that

[@junlee7237]

I knew the copyright system was bad, but you did an amazing job of showing how utterly stupid of a joke the whole thing is. Also, this video was hilarious

[@thanasispap4096]

I think there's another point you could have mentioned. At the "micro" level music is made of individual blocks (notes), if we are looking at arrangements of 3 notes, there are 1728 unique combinations (12^3, not counting register or note duration) so in the millions of minutes of music that have ever been written, we should expect totally unrelated repetitions.Not to mention that the number of usable 3 note motifs would be much more limited by the context they are presented in (most music is tonal, and not all of them fit whatever the artist is trying to do). Speaking of things that sound similar, the opening of Doctor Who (the original, don't know if there are multiple ones) reminds me of a part from a little piece written by Godowsky called Anachronisms (kinda weird that Doctor Who happens to be about time travel) and Rachmaninoff wrote something very similar to All Star my Smash Mouth in his "4 pieces".

[@howtouploadinfullquality3638]

Speaking of John Williams…has anyone else noticed the similarities between Princess Leia’s theme and Chopin’s Scherzo in B Minor (Op 20 No 1). You can hear the similarity at around the four minute mark

[@vesteel]

in the Philippines there was actually a court case of music plagiarism in the 1939 where Jose Estella claimed that Francisco Santiago ripped off a song from Estella's 1929 operetta. It turns out they just used the same folk song as inspiration for their own melodies, so the case was trashed. Thankfully, that's the only example here of people suing each other for alleged music plagiarism!

[@benjaminbcgb]

Another John Williams one: Villa-Lobos Bachianas Brasileiras 3 halfway through the second movement there’s a little motive that’s extremely similar to March of the Resistance from Star Wars VII. The pieces are completely different except for the seconds long excerpt in Villa-Lobos. (Note: the motive has been used in Star Wars since Empire Strikes Back, but it was only given a dedicated fleshed out version in VII)

[@klsztsu850]

I think different communities have different ideas on this thing. For example in Japanese Anime community, some creators are very happy to see other creators adopting and building upon their materials. They see it as a kudo for their work and a sign of prosperity of the community. I think in Classical Music, things like this may never happen, not because of that it's not worth it, but because Classical Music community, as is explained in this video, understand how music ideas emerges and also has a history of this kind of things happening.

[@caterscarrots3407]

I have definitely subconsciously had motifs from Beethoven appear in my music because Beethoven is my most influential composer. I wouldn’t say I’m plagiarizing Beethoven in any way, that’s ridiculous, not only because of what you mentioned, but also because Beethoven is public domain. That said, I have been a victim of true musical plagiarism. It was just a piano draft of mine that I eventually decided to expand out to an orchestra, but I still felt very uncomfortable and upset when it happened as I wasn’t even given any credit for it. I reported the person who plagiarized my music(it was on one of those music forums in case you were wondering) and it hasn’t happened since. I felt like "If they plagiarized my piano draft, what’s to say that they won’t plagiarize a finished piece of mine, even an orchestral piece? I’ve got to stop it before it goes any further." That’s why I reported it more than anything else was because of that feeling, that discomfort.

[@loveclassicalmusicalot]

Another musical plagiarism case with Mozart versus Beethoven is that one of two piano concertos by Mozart to be in the minor key is his 24th Concerto in C Minor. Beethoven was known for having admired this concerto. It is said that it inspired Beethoven's 3rd piano concerto also in C Minor. What's interesting is that the third piano concerto has one thing that Mozart's 24 piano concerto does not have but one thing that Mozart's 20th piano Concerto in D Minor has. It ends in major.

[@adammiller6299]

Speaking of Beethoven's C minor piano concerto, didn't Leonard Bernstein get the melody for the song Somewhere in West Side Story from the 2nd movement of that concerto?

[@keatonlaceymusic]

I love this! I’ve been watching a lot of your content lately and I’ve learned so much. It makes me happy when I see all the comments agreeing and pointing out more examples of this. As a composer, I love taking melodies of songs I heard a lot as a kid and repurposing them for the music I write today, like little Easter eggs, even if for myself.

[@hippotropikas5374]

If copyright is a way of providing financial security to the artists, it does a rather bad job, since the proportion of artists who can live solely from copyright is very small! I recently came across the idea of "public patronage", under which the artists earn money, not from the sales of her or his work, but from the donations she or he receives from the people who like her/his work and want to finance it. I think it could be a better way to provide financial security to the artists while still maintaining artistic creativity intact. Of course, such a system needs some conditions to work ; for example, to make sure that all artists get enough money, we could make that the donations are made of public money - the population would then have to vote for the proportion of money they want to give to each artist (with a limit to how unequal the distribution could be). But I have the impression that it has the potential to be better than copyright (although it's probably not the best conceivable system)

[@hagardeviking9314]

John Williams " Star Wars" CD is full with a collection of classic scenes

[@dzinypinydoroviny]

Great video! I hope people finally realise how absurd the court cases are. What is worth mentioning too is that the chances two composers independently coming up with two identical themes or chord progressions are not that low. The "Eroica theme" allegedly "stolen" from Mozart is just an arpeggio of the tonic chord in 3/4 time. That's nothing out of this world. You can often hear people cite grotesquely high numbers of combinations of notes. However, 1) Right off the bat, you can divide that by 12 since transpositions don't make much difference; 2) You can divide that even further since many themes, even though theoretically different end up sounding very similar if not the same; 3) Out of what you're left with, only so many combinations sound good, which is probably the most significant factor.

[@snorefest1621]

Many musicians have melodies unconsciously engrained into their subconsciousness. Where they may bring up the melody at the top of their head but cannot name the music. Music in a quotation is the ultimate "flattery" and a medium of creativity. Even Freddie Mercury specifically talked about how repurposing his music is totally appropriate. No one should have the right over music, instead it should be universal

[@pedrod.7576]

The examples are interesting and the argument is coherent. However, I would have enjoyed a more direct discussion of the following question: How do we determine the boundary between INFLUENCE and PLAGIARISM?

[@loveclassicalmusicalot]

I like using Classical Music in my own pieces. The main reason why I like doing so is because of the case with Pachelbel's Canon and Gigue in D Major vs. the Maroon 5 song Memories.

[@kofiLjunggren]

YESSSSSSS!!!!!

[@Musicrafter12]

I wrote a fugue where the first subject was essentially directly plagiarized from Bach's BWV 1003 Fugue. I only noticed after I posted it and someone pointed it out, which is weird because I'm a violinist. I had just never actually played BWV 1003 myself before. I wrote a work for solo violin and orchestra where the main theme partially quoted Papageno's Aria from the Magic Flute. I suppose I must have watched Amadeus recently at the time I wrote it... This sort of thing just happens, and when you do ultimately discover the source of your plagiarism it can be at least mildly uncomfortable, at least depending on how close the resemblance actually is!

[@Fritz1457]

I remember an interview with Vanilla Ice where he said that for a song to be considered as plagiarism and eventually the subject to a lawsuit, what matters is the popularity of the song and how much money you're going to receive out of it. Vanilla Ice was not in the reason when he gave this interview, but this phrase mostly summarizes what happens very often in pop and rock music.

[@teddavid3082]

I thought that chord progressions w/o a melody couldn't be copyrighted. And what about a composer (I'm thinking Handel) using his melodies again and again in different compositions. Financial motivation?

[@chuckbosio2924]

I see it as a game. E.G., you can hear Freddy Mercury borrowing a couple motifs from Scarlatti's Sonata K. 208 in Bohemian Rhapsody. "A C# F# E" repeats three or four times as he sings "Mama!, etc."

[@ROKaleidoscope]

It interesting to see this point of view. Indeed the copyright has many abuses. Indeed some claims are ridiculous but i cannot agree 100% with you. I think this should be analyzed from different points of view. One strict technical and one stric melodical or how the melody is identified by the listener. Another perspective is intentionality. Yes there are a few notes and a few chord progressions so is hard to make 100% original music because the basics are the same. BUT, a composer can identify exactly if his works are similar and can avoid them. A composer is supposed to have knowledge of the music so is hard to believe that a 21 century composer can claim that he didn't herd that piece or the other. I think that the imitation stuff is just for practice. As in "ok let's rewrite this let's try to write like that or that composer in order to understand the music". But just there, as an exercise. You don't put your name on this stuff and claim is yours. Of course are exceptions when you reedit or remix stuff (also in classical music it happened) but from the start you say it is a remix or is based of X piece. But when you imitate on purpose it is not an excuse. Also you made a premise that if we will apply the modern laws to the 17th century and concluded indirectly that they will never do that. I think that they would use it. Mozart was in his time a pop star that was generating big money. So if the laws were in place I'm sure that especially his Father would sue Beethoven. At the end of the day if you create something and bring something really new in a field and that new something can generate money is normal to be upset if somebody took your innovation and claims is the owner. If I would create something original and someone just took it it will not make me proud (oh, is just admiring imitation) it will annoy me. The conclusion is that some claims are ridiculous and a agree with it. I agree also that some imitation is good in the learning process but only then. But I don't agree with the ideea that if imitation is done from admiration is ok. At the end of the day if you want to be you you will try to bring the best and avoid to do what others did by censorating what you found similar. Also as a classical music listener I noticed something that surely is missed. The today composers of classical music have the tendency to compose music just based on technicality and wish to cross the line, to be avangarde and to not respect any rules or to use them where they are not supposed to be used. Because of this act of over thoughtful creation process the modern classical music is so hard to listen. What made the classical music beautiful was the continues search of beauty under the form of harmony and symmetry. Also a vital element for the best composition are the FEELINGS. Many great pieces of classical music have strong feelings attached. At Bach the religious sentiment, At Verdi the patriotic feeling or the empathy, at Mozart the joy of creating, and so one. For them, despite the fact that they were good musical technician, the music was an instrument to express feelings and to creat feelings. Even the Court Composers that were musical mercenaries were focusing on the felling that the music will create. Imagine if a court composer presented at the royal dinner a musical piece written in the style of the most Sostakovich style. I bet that the royals will have indigestion and that the composer will be in the dirt with the head on or in one piece. So music is directly linked to the feelings and in my opinion it should me melodic.

[@GiantPetRat]

I have a slight fascination with pieces of music that bear striking similarities to each other; I wonder what it is about certain chord progressions that make them so attractive or intuitive to composers. I also find it interesting when certain tropes mainly seen in one genre somehow find themselves being used in a completely different one. In my mind, a composer who borrows traits from another song should be free to do so, just so long as they add something to it to make it theirs. Billy Joel's "Say Goodbye to Hollywood", which he's openly admitted to being inspired by The Ronnette's "Be My Baby" is arguably a good example of taking a decent hook and further developing on it.

[@sislaneydillanomore2803]

The motif from your piano sonata reminds me of Nightwish's Elan.

[@laurenlofton9039]

Was that the, what it’s now famously known as, Alma 4 notes theme in the beginning of the video?

[@GarGlingT]

Imagine that, Paganini sues Liszt hehe.

[@guille____]

That Kent ad was awesome

[@cbbcbb6803]

What if the letters of the alphabet were patented, trademarked, and copyrighted?

[@dulcietorrans]

okay but your piano sonata is my new fave thing - is there a link to the sheet music you could send me please?

[@MusicaUniversalis]

The sheet music is available for purchase on my website under: henrywolfecarradine.com/downloads

[@kovzsi24]

Who is the composer of piano sonata?

[@orionsuniversepart2932]

2:59 What you said.

[@daviydviljoen9318]

There are other things worth copying in Mozart's Misericordias Domini, not just the part Beethoven may or may not have copied, by the way... Some of can be rewriting with different instrumentation, and it would sound darker. There are a lot more instances of this sort of thing being done throughout the history of music than the video shows. So, copyright really is BS...

[@willemmusik2010]

YES ANOTHER VIDEO!!

[@cosmic8437]

Imagine if someone copyrighted the dies eres

[@maxjohn6012]

I found this quite cathartic. I have a horror of discovering, some time after I've finished a piece, that I've unconsciously pinched some important element from somewhere else. I don't mind doing it intentionally, as when I know I'm doing it I am in control and can set limits to what I borrow within which I am comfortable (and already agree with everything you've said about the importance of borrowing in the history of great music), but I find the possibility of accidentally recreating someone else's music really quite terrifying... This video helped me think of it in a different way though :) I'd still be mortified to discover I'd accidentally re-written something, but using a motif without realising it doesn't seem so awful.

[@giorgioleoni3471]

Well, the main reason for which people weren't that bothered by "plagiarism" is mainly due to the fact that it was more difficult to detect, nothing being recorded. Rossini made a career out of his centones.

[@kmk8284]

YES ANOTHER VDEO!!!

[@noitalfed]

Pretty good argument. And a bad situation.

[@amarug]

The George Harrison case is really nuts. They are completely different, with that logic, statistically, new music can't be made anymore, every song already exists.

[@WorldNews92]

How could Beethoven copy Mozart if he never heard it? Checkmate copyrighters!

[@fortunatomartino8549]

Legality has created a problem

[@d3l_nev]

Variations on themes wouldn't exist at all

[@gatesurfer]

What is a legit complaint is when White musicians would record a song that Black musicians had composed and recorded and not pay royalties off the sales. That is the original meaning of the term “covering a song,” which these days simply means doing your own version of someone else’s song.

[@solracsnad9979]

I’m afraid you aren’t making the right analysis, simplifying a problem that’s actually more complex that what just the surface suggests. It isn’t the point that because a chord progression is a common one, the plagiarist is free to copy the song of another, on the ground alone that no one owns chord progressions. The issue isn the Del Ray case wasn’t that Lana was using a chord progression but that Lana was making use of a song that wasn’t hers, that was a complete copy of Radiohead’s own (that was a copy of the Hollies’), putting in enough differences (tweaks) into her son so that if a claim of copyright infringement is made, Lana could highlight the differences to “prove” that her song was not the same. Vanilla Ice made use of this defense against another claim, but however the case was decided, the listener would know that his song was a rip-off (partially) of someone else’s. In the George Harrison case, you could hear that he was singing somebody else’s song, holding it out as completely his. His defense that he’d never heard of the older song is a George Harrison talking point - so easy to assert, very difficult to disprove. Th test isn’t if the plagiarist (let’s call him that) made the same song, but if he employed enough tweaks such that when the claim is made, the plagiarist could point to the differences, rather than the sameness. When, for example, people charged One Direction with ripping off a Def Leppard song, defenders pointed out the differences, but Def Leppard itself noted how that song (or a part) evoked the same vibe and mood - the reverb, the chorus formation and the assembly. Def Leppard never sued, but you can see how One Direction was taking a big risk. It hasn’t gotten better. When Led Zeppelin was charged with ripping off a Willie Dixon song, defenders attacked the originator - why, Led Zep made the song better! - which completely misses the point. “Whole Lotta Love” (man, I hate that title!) was still a copy of “I Need Love!” never mind that it never charted, and that Mr.; Dixon ought to thank Led Zep for ripping him off. That the originators wouldn’t have sued “My Sweet Lord” (and back to there) if the song hadn’t busted the charts is beside the point. Harrison “wrote” his song with the same profit motive in mind, but profiting off somebody else’s intellectual creation is still morally wrong and still would have broken the copyright’s laws. You aren’t giving enough credit to the originator, and how many have died in total obscurity?!