Muslims or Believers? Confessional Identity in Early Islam W/ Prof. Fred Donner

This is a clip about confessional identity in the early period of Islamic history. Fred Donner discusses his theory that the early identity was comprised of many confessions as well as the idea that the word "believer" does not equate to "muslim" in the Qur'an. This clip is taken from my interview with Professor Fred Donner. If you enjoyed this video, please subscribe to the channel and like the video! Please be sure to check out the full interview, here: • Fred Donner: Faith and...

[@michabienkowski8254]

Very interesting and encouraging. Professor Reynolds, your channel deserves wider publicity and a regular documentary series

[@erkanozsaatcilar]

I agree with most of Mr.Donner's statements here and most of what he wrote in his related book.(Muhammad and the Believers: At the Origins of Islam)...Beginning as a "believers/muslims/muvahhids/monoteist's" Islam convert to "Muslumanizm" after the Umayyad period. Thus, Islam in the Qur'an has been compared to the religion of Sufism mixed with old Iranian paganism(Zerdust) + Far Eastern Buddhism(Maniesim) + Greek pantheism. Those who call themselves Muslims should urgently return to the "Islam of the Qur'an" only.

[@darmokandjalad7786]

Dr. Reynolds, I would love to see Emran El-Badawi on the show again in future!

[@Zarghaam12]

The Quran addressed a mixed audience that also included the "Hunafaa حنفاء" - non-Jewish & non-Christian monotheists- so the use of address of : "yaa ayyuh al-mu'minuun" would make sense as the Hunafaa were not Muslim , and many pagan Arabs were still on pagan beliefs though some would be drifting to Islam, making them 'believers' of sorts, though with some way to go yet. You do see forms of addresses like "yaa ma'shar ul muslimiin یا معشر المسلمین" etc. in slighter later accounts talking about and quoting events / speeches from the first civil war period. Ref: Imam Ali's address to his soldiers just before the Battle of Siffeen, against the forces of Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan, the arch enemy, and son of the arch enemies of the Prophet and his apostolic mission, viz. Abu Sufyan and his cannibal wife, Hind, the latter 'affectionately' called " aakilat-ul-akbaad آکلة الأکباد = liver-eater" a reference to her cannibalizing the remains of Hamzah ibn Abdil Muttalib, the Prophet's uncle, after his death in the Battle of Uhud. The use of the address in the above example here of "yaa ma'shar ul muslimiin یا معشر المسلمین" was emphasizing and contrasting with the enemy out to kill him.

[@sexydirrtymoney]

Here from MythVision 😅

[@Hamba_829]

Saya pembaca buku Prof munim sirry , dan saya sering menemukan nama gabriel reynold di setiap buku nya

[@tjbergren]

As an aside…Interestingly, Dr. Donner brings up Günter Lüling’s “radical” ideas regarding Islam yet does nothing to call them mistaken either in process or outcomes. It would be immensely intriguing to hear Pr. Donner discuss his mentor.

[@ExploringtheQuranandtheBible]

Yes that would be interesting - I will keep this in mind for a part II with Prof. Donner. He has contributed (in German) to this book in honor of Lueling: www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783110599176/html#contents

[@babulsarwar3714]

Also, neverwhere in the quran it addresses like ' ya aiuhal muslimun' like the way it did multiple times 'ya aiuhal mu'minun'! The question is why not? Moreover, in the last sermon of the Prophet he did say 'O you people' five times but not once 'O you muslims'! a

[@MohamedMohamed-ws7mq]

3:64 Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “O People of the Book! Let us come to common terms: that we will worship none but Allah, associate none with Him, nor take one another as lords instead of Allah.” But if they turn away, then say, “Bear witness that we are Muslims”

[@MohamedMohamed-ws7mq]

As for why the Quran doesn’t say oh Muslims . That’s because Allah is excluding the munafiqun who are Muslims in public

[@babulsarwar3714]

@@MohamedMohamed-ws7mq re 3:64 about the word 'muslim' I have some undrstandings and observations that when in Arabic its verbal noun like in English 'walker', if one walkes he is or can be called a walker, hence when one submits / surrenders to HIM he/she becomes a submitter/surrenderer and should not have an initial cap for this word. In Arabic there is no capital letter idea but when we transplant an Arabic word into English if the Arabic word is proper noun we could use initial cap. Further, we never use the English meaning of 'mu'min' with initial cap and never use the English meaning of 'muslim' in English which shows a kind of contadiction of our use of meanings and use. Appreciate a feed back.

[@IbnAlHimyari]

It should be (يا أيها الذين أسلموا) ya ayuha aladhina aslamu and not muslimu. In Surah Al-Hajj, you read the expression (هو سماكم المسلمين من قبل وفي هذا) He called you Muslims before and NOW

[@Zarghaam12]

It's like saying while talking to Christians or Jews you'd have the necessity to called them "yaa ayyauh an-nasaara" or "yaa ayyauh al-yahuud"! Not a very good argument if everyone is following the same faith!

[@saidhashi2856]

To be a Muslim is to proclaim the Shahada (pledge of faith) and submit to Allah; but to be a believer is a higher runk. That requires one to have more qualities. Quran 49:14-15 The desert Arabs say, ‘We have faith.’ [Prophet], tell them, ‘You do not have faith. What you should say instead is, “We have submitted,” for faith has not yet entered your hearts.’ If you obey God and His Messenger, He will not diminish any of your deeds: He is most forgiving and most merciful. The (true) believers are those only who believe in Allah and His messenger and afterward doubt not, but strive with their wealth and their lives for the cause of Allah. Such are the sincere. No doubt the word iman here has been used for sincere affirmation by the heart and the word Islam for only outward and external submission.

[@whootoo1117]

Deen = conduct,! كما تدين تدان, دان! يدين! دين Deen = religion Deen = judgement Deen in islam is based on actions or conducts which is both towards godworship and towards creation which nearest of them is humanity. So, it is divided into worship and interactions with humanity and nature in a balanced way or with taqwa.

[@erkanozsaatcilar]

WE SHOULD SAY MUSLIM OR BELIEVER, NOT MUSLIM! Allah has named believers as "Muslim". However, approximately 250-300 years after the Prophet Muhammad, the word "Muslim" was produced from the Persian word "MUSELMAN" with the introduction of Sufism to Islam and the influence of Iranian culture. But the Qur'an does not have the word "Muslim", it has the word "Muslim". According to the grammatical rules of the Qur'an, the word Muslim cannot be produced from the word Muslim.

[@whootoo1117]

@@erkanozsaatcilar You said "muslim" both times then reject one of them. Islam and muslim are mentioned in quran. That is no my point. My point was about the english and european term of religion or religio doesn't mean "deen" in islam. Because the arabic term deen has different meanings and it has to do with good conduct, submission to god and also to be peaceful to whole of creation while nearest of creation is humanity. There are verses of quran that explain the term islam, but hadith as well like the one which say " muslim is the one who keeps his hand and mouth from transgressing other people" in arabic المسلم من سلم الناس من يده ولسانه or in other wording من سلم المسلمون which means the same thing. Give peace and show mercy to the merciful people of humanity. Not same as being passive and giving the other cheak but giving peace to others as a good code of conduct.

[@erkanozsaatcilar]

You're right, sorry I mistyped with Google translate🤷🏼‍♂️ Actually, I should have written: ALLAH SAID US MUSLIM NOT MUSLUMAN! Because the word "Muslim" is derived from Persian during Abbasies period at Iran from "Muselman"... In Arabic grammar rules, the word Muslim cannot be converted to Musluman. What is called "Islam" today is a replica Islam that was started to be produced during the Umayyad period and produced with dubious hadiths not Quranic! I absolutely do not believe in hadiths and I cannot believe them. Due to the hadiths, sects were formed and each society created its own Islamic tradition. The only faultless source is the Qur'an. All source books except the Qur'an contain inaccuracies and fabricated Torah sentences. Selamünaleyküm. 🌺

[@whootoo1117]

@@erkanozsaatcilar I think the word "musulman" has a colonial meaning and it is french word that is adopted some north african countries, persians and turkish. So, it is not arabic or not equal to arabic term of muslim but a word which we adopted because of inferiority complex and love all that colonial overlords had. I'm just kidding, but there are many words that are used in many countries around the word which the native terms thrown away and new colonial words are used. The word "merci" is also used in persian and few arabic countries which is a problem. There are also countries that got a lot of italian or english words. But all in all, in quran there are many verses about this as you said and هو سماكم مسلمين is one of them. Thanks by the way!

[@AbdulHannanAbdulMatheen]

👏🙂 Very interesting

[@marcobisagno859]

There's one aspect of Donner thesis that is not clear to me, that is on what basis the "community of believers" distinguished among believers and not believers: Christians and Jews both believe there only one God, Christians and Jews both believe in a righteous behavior and the Christian believe in the las judgment

[@TohouBohou]

« SLM » … its « god » addressing « Abraham » in the « Bible »

[@BenM61]

In minute three you claimed the term believers refers to some Jews, Christians and others. That’s not true at all. The term believers refer only to the believers in the prophet Muhammad and the message he brought, the Quran. That’s why in the Quran no other group of people besides the followers of the prophet Muhammad are referred as believers. You claimed there are some verses in the Quran that back your claim. Let’s see what you have mind. 5:69 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. إِنَّ ٱلَّذِینَ ءَامَنُوا۟ وَٱلَّذِینَ هَادُوا۟ وَٱلصَّـٰبِءُونَ وَٱلنَّصَـٰرَىٰ مَنۡ ءَامَنَ بِٱللَّهِ وَٱلۡیَوۡمِ ٱلۡءَاخِرِ وَعَمِلَ صَـٰلِحࣰا فَلَا خَوۡفٌ عَلَیۡهِمۡ وَلَا هُمۡ یَحۡزَنُو The believers are the followers of the prophet Muhammad. The others, those who believe in God and the last day and work righteous, are not necessarily the followers of the prophet. They in fact may not believe he was a prophet. God uses ‘believe in’ not believers. One has to add something after it. That’s a big distinction between the two groups. 3:113 Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration 3:114 They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous 3:115 Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right. Note the term ‘believe in’ is used not the term believe only. This is from surah 20 where the term ‘believe in’ is used: 20:70 So the magicians fell down in prostration, declaring, “We *believe in* the Lord of Aaron and Moses.” 20:71 Pharaoh threatened, “How dare you *believe in* him before I give you permission? He must be your master who taught you magic. I will certainly cut off your hands and feet on opposite sides, and crucify you on the trunks of palm trees. You will really see whose punishment is more severe and more lasting.” Are the magicians believers similar to the Muslims? Of course not. Don’t be ridiculous. So please be careful with your language. Don’t muddy the waters with your low level Arabic language skills.

[@RedWolf75]

The Koran is a collection of Syriac Christians tales. It's not some God book.

[@Hunzilla1098]

What Is Deen? Basic misconception in this regard is that Deen is thought to be no more than an ethical code. Deen is not the collection of a few moral values; it is a comprehensive system of life covering all aspects of human life. The moral values become operative within this system, or in other words this system provides that sound base on which the edifice of these moral values is established. Here's an excerpt from a great book on the topic called 'Islam: A Challenge to Religion' written by Ghulam Ahmed Perwez: "Religion, as such, is nothing more than a kind of private relationship between man and his Creator. We are not, at the moment, concerned with the nature of this relationship which has been amply described in books like William James’ The Varieties of Religious Experience. Anyhow, whatever the nature and characteristics of such experience, it is admittedly the experience of an individual of a purely subjective character having no relation whatsoever with worldly affairs, nor could it be communicated from one to another. This private relationship between man and his Creator is essentially founded on the idea of salvation. Salvation is common to all religions, even to Buddhism which does not acknowledge the existence of God. The idea of salvation was born out of the belief that man's sojourn on earth was one of bondage. How to extricate himself from that bondage thus became the main object of his life. Islam on the other hand, is neither such a relationship between man and God, nor is it characterized by the experience of an individual of a subjective nature, but is essentially a "Code of Life," regulating the conduct of affairs concerning the individual as well as the collective life of human beings. Secondly, it does not consider man’s life on earth a period of bondage in which case the idea of salvation does not arise. On the contrary, having assigned to man a very high position in the universe, Islam expects him to take up the challenge of life boldly in order to harness the forces of nature for the development of his own self and the larger community of mankind. The fallacy of considering Islam a religion springs from the fact that absolute "faith" in God is of fundamental importance to it, as it is supposed to be more or less so in all religions, past and present, but it is not only the "faith" in God that should serve as a criterion in arriving at a correct estimate of one or the other. The real question we should be concerned with is, what is the concept of God which is supposed to be the common factor? Islam on its part, has presented a concept of God entirely at variance with the one advanced by the various religions of the world. Along with Iman in God, the distinguishing feature of the Islamic concept lies in the belief that God did not merely create the universe, but has also laid down definite laws to regulate the scope and functions of the various objects comprising it. The "Law of Cause and Effect," and the "Law of Uniformity in Nature", among others, being of basic importance; and they deal with the external nature of the universe. He has, besides, prescribed definite laws regulating human life and its activities. The knowledge of the Divine Laws relating to the external universe is derived from a close observation of nature, scientific experiments and discoveries, but not so in the case of laws relating to human life and the regulation of its conduct which are communicated only through Revelation to the Rusul and conveyed by them as Messengers of God to mankind. It is this wherein Islam as a Deen also distinguishes itself from the Material concept of life which takes no cognizance of the Divine Guidance by means of revelation. Islam asserts that such Divine Laws have been, from time to time, communicated to all the peoples of the world. The Rusul, the Messengers of God, received them through revelation and delivered them to their people. What happened after the demise of a Rasul was that his followers, chiefly their leaders having vested interests, tampered with the Laws with excision and deletion of what was found detrimental to their interests, and by interpolations, with the result that, from among the religions of the world, not one can produce the original text of Divine Revelation free from the taint of corruption. But these Divine Laws in their original form, words as well as letters, are fully extant and meticulously preserved in the Qur'an which is the last and the final of the series of the revealed Books of God, as was revealed to the last of the Rusul. So long as these Laws remain in their original form and pristine glory, they constitute what is termed as Deen, but when they are tampered with and corrupted, they fall from the high pedestal and become what is known as religion; and that is why among all the religions of the world only Islam deserves to be styled as a Deen. As a matter of fact, no other religion makes a claim, nor could it prove, even if it were to advance such a claim, that it possesses a revealed book word for word and letter for letter as delivered to them by their Rasul. Islam, on the other hand, does make such a claim which is verified and fully supported by an impartial testimony of even non-Muslim historians. Islam, thus, is a code of laws revealed by God, through his Rasul, Muhammad (P), for the guidance of the whole of mankind, and which are fully preserved in the Book of God, known as the Qur'an; and they constitute what we may call the Permanent Values. Further, Islam emphatically and confidently advances the claim that if life is led in full compliance with and in complete subordination to the Permanent Values, it will be rid of all the travails and troubles in which the entire world of the present day finds itself beset condemning humanity to a hellish life despite the wonderful and awe-inspiring material and scientific advancement. The order of life according to these Permanent Values is termed as the Qur'anic Social Order, or, in other words, the Islamic State. It requires, however, to be made clear that every order of life established by the so-called Muslims., would not necessarily be the Islamic State as such, for, the Islamic State connotes only that State which is based on, and is in fullest consonance with the Permanent Values; and any other, lacking in this foundation, will be only un-Islamic, established though it may have been by the Muslims themselves. An Islamic State is thus an agency for the enforcement of Qur'anic injunctions, and laws made in the light of the principles enunciated therein."

[@harriskhan7671]

MR Parviz was the rejector of " hadeeth" and because of this a vast amount of Muslims saw him as a non-muslim.

[@Hunzilla1098]

@@harriskhan7671 This is a part of that nefarious propaganda directed towards Mr. Parwez. I will not involve in the discussions of Hadith (sayings of The Messenger), as this topic needs much explanation. Whosoever is keen is welcome to peruse his book entitled, "Muqaam-e-Hadith," published by the council of Tolu-e-Islam. For the time being I shall suffice on one argument. Mr. Parwez considers that in our Hadith compilation we have authentic ones, and those that have lost their true significance and meanings over the passage of years. The ones that are according to the tenets narrated in the Holy Quran are authentic. He further believes, those Hadiths which go against the teachings and spirit of the Quran or devalue the Messenger (PBUH) or his apostles must not be considered of any value. On the contrary his main opponent, the Amir of Jamaat-e-Islami, Mr. S. Abul Alaa Maudoodi states, "In the Hadith collections there are true and false ones both. Only those can be considered true that are evaluated by any individual who can assess the temperament of the Messenger Muhammad (PBUH)." In other words criteria of authenticity of Hadith according to Mr. Parwez is the Holy Book of Quran, while in Mr. Maudoodi's case, it is his own judgment and verdict, as accordingly in Jamaat's opinion Mr. Maudoodi himself possesses the insight of the Messenger (PBUH). After this, you can decide for yourself, as to who denies the Hadith. I will not go further, you can scrutinize the biography of The Messenger by Mr. Parwez and you will observe numerous Hadiths quoted therein by him.

[@TohouBohou]

They are ABD (but not SLM) … they are « Abdim » 😳

[@TohouBohou]

Din is Law … everybody knows that ! And came long ago 🤪

[@erkanozsaatcilar]

WE SHOULD SAY MUSLIM OR BELIEVER, NOT MUSLIM! Allah has named believers as "Muslim". However, approximately 250-300 years after the Prophet Muhammad, the word "Muslim" was produced from the Persian word "MUSELMAN" with the introduction of Sufism to Islam and the influence of Iranian culture. But the Qur'an does not have the word "Muslim", it has the word "Muslim". According to the grammatical rules of the Qur'an, the word Muslim cannot be produced from the word Muslim.

[@finalprophet813]

Huh?

[@glasgowblackchigowski6117]

Huh?

[@TohouBohou]

And the last day … did not come 😳😆 pleaz wake-up dude

[@TohouBohou]

Wake-up dudes … the « truth » is « elsewhere » 😵‍💫

[@user-yz1dl3eu8l]

Well, well, well... the 'Believers' thesis is not really convincing.

[@TohouBohou]

Believer … Mu_SLM is not « possible » yet 🤪

[@TohouBohou]

About « monotheism » (true or false) all was already Done before the years 700 ! Wake-up dudes 😵‍💫

[@BenM61]

On a side not you mentioned surah 49. 49:14 ˹Some of˺ the nomadic Arabs say, “We believe.” Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “You have not believed. But say, ‘We have submitted,’ for faith has not yet entered your hearts. But if you obey Allah and His Messenger ˹wholeheartedly˺, He will not discount anything from ˹the reward of˺ your deeds. Allah is truly All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” Islam means to submit. It’s a one time deal. Iman or faith on the hand is limitless. Iman grows or falters depending on the person. It is the same with the words akmala أكمل and atamna أتمّ. Those two words are found in surah 5 like you mentioned. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. ٱلۡیَوۡمَ أَكۡمَلۡتُ لَكُمۡ دِینَكُمۡ وَأَتۡمَمۡتُ عَلَیۡكُمۡ نِعۡمَتِی وَرَضِیتُ لَكُمُ ٱلۡإِسۡلَـٰمَ دِینࣰاۚ The word akmala is used here to denote some thing finished and cannot be made better. Atmamtu is used when things can be changed for the better, added on and perfected.

[@speakerscornerislamicdawah3947]

Clueless.... The host states verses with no response....!

[@danielshellaiah5068]

Any Muslims educated or none! In their minds saithanic verses against truth !!

[@laylaali5977]

There are no satanic verses in the Quran the Quran is a revivalist book it is just telling people to believe ones of God,humanity and the universe to worship creator of everything that means any one who is a Unitarian is a believer not what Hadith people say their view is based certain later Hadiths