My experience clearing a Shmup with an all-button controller

[@talkerbot_tjj]

Very interesting thoughts. Thanks for sharing. I really like to play shmups on my leverless controller. I used it for fighting games before, so I was already used to the device, hand positioning, etc. It might sound weird, but I feel like playing years of World of Warcraft on PC got me used to use a button at the bottom for jumping/going up. I am eager to hear how this journey will continue for you. Would like to hear your thoughts on Rolling Gunner x Hitbox.

[@scowsh]

Really interesting to hear your thoughts on switching to leverless, even if it is as a side project currently. I can see your movement is a little on the Bambi side but your knowledge & skill get you thru with no issues 🤘 It took me so long to switch over to stick & get it to a level that is (almost) the same as my dpad play, I think that a leverless for me would be a way to have a bit of a change and a bit of fun. I’m looking forward to seeing where you take it next, no doubt it’ll be an interesting journey 🤘

[@Shmuptopia]

I appreciate you watching this one! If you ever felt inspired to do a video, I think it'd be fascinating to hear a little about your journey with stick. It'd also be neat seeing a dpad/stick comparison thrown into the mix.

[@glasssoup7549]

A few years ago back, I switched to a leverless-like control scheme on keyboard for platformers. With Right-Alt: Down, Semicolon: Left, Open-Squarebrackets: Up, Close-Squarebrackets: Right. Not coming from a game where "up" is jump, or a fighting games that is advantageous for up to be on my thumb. I find the inverted controls people use pretty odd. Originally made the switch for ergonomics (had some issues with arrow key shape layouts), but it came with other benefits as well. Now I pretty much play most games (with directional inputs, and don't use a mouse) with this control scheme. After some time, it just feels very natural. The thoughts of movement goes directly from brain to game, without really thinking much about the inputs. There's something about the low amount of physical movement the hand needs to do that makes it feel very enjoyable and very satisfying to use.

[@Shmuptopia]

Hey, Glass! Thanks for sharing and checking this out! Ergonomics is always an important factor. I wouldn't mind designing something of my own at some point. Something modular would be most welcome.

[@ChuWaferz]

This video was exactly what I was hoping to see from you. Really like your longer off-the-cuff videos. I've been curious for a while about what your leverless experience has been with shmups. Looks like it's more or less what I expected, but one thing I didn't account for was the chance of a new fun factor from having to re-acclimate yourself to a game. My goal will be to try incorporating leverless into every shmup I can, unless the mechanics or feel of the game lends itself to a stick too well to make sense. Still don't know when I'll buckle down and buy a controller. Still waiting for native PS5 compatibility to trickle down.

[@Shmuptopia]

Hey Chu! Thanks for watching. The longer stuff like Coffee vids, Meet the Player, and other stuff has been mostly on the backburner due to how busy life and family responsibilities keep me. My controller reviews have been more abundant lately because they are feature and spec-dense but ultimately don't demand the kind of time and energy that actual Shmup topics do, so they've fit but nicely into my schedule. Plus my controller video format keeps things nice and simple. That said, I am starting to ease back into a little more available time for projects. We'll soon see a return to the stuff people have come to appreciate here. As for Shmups and all-button controllers, I think it would just be a matter of more experience. I was dipping into Mushihimesama on Original mode earlier this evening and my control of movement was already worlds improved compared to the other day. I have a feeling native PS5 trickle-down could be a long while, but we'll see!

[@ChuWaferz]

​@@Shmuptopia Oh sure, understandable. I've been silently checking out the reviews too. Good to hear that you've been able to get a grasp on a bit more time for yourself. Looking forward to your written articles too. I'm not much of a video maker (at all), but I can imagine that 500 words for an article is a multiplied workload if it were in video form. That's interesting hearing your movement is still improving so fast. I'll be ordering the all-button Mayflash f500 you've just covered and really sit with it for a range of games. I haven't touched any shmups in 6 months. Once I do go back, the thing I'll be most curious about is what the distinctions will be between a shmup that feels more all-button friendly than another. For now it feels nebulous, like the elements behind the (lack of) friction may lie more in the intangibles (i.e. bullet design philosophy or ship movement) than the explicit things like mechanics. The next factor I'd explore is, once I do encounter a game that's harder for me to adapt to on leverless, what would it take before I stop blaming my lack of experience and chalk it up to it just feeling too intuitive on stick? In the end, the only way to know the answers is to see for myself, and it's about time I do. I took a super long hiatus from Graze Counter GM no-miss attempts (all stages) because I wanted to see if I could close the gap on leverless, and well...Mayflash pretty much killed my excuses for keeping the game on the back burner. Obviously I'll have to relearn the game, my route, and the controller itself this time, but experimenting in that game for long enough should answer most of the hanging questions. I'll be taking your video's advice to just jump in and see what happens. Thanks for sharing.

[@TheFrenchy82]

Thanks for your experience ! in fact , I'm still undecided regarding all button joysticks...

[@Shmuptopia]

Hey, Frenchy! Thanks so much for sharing that. I have a thing for controllers, so when I initially stumbled upon this type, I was very drawn to explore them. I think in general, there are some insanely inexpensive options, so if you're at all intrigued, there's no reason not to test one. I did a Haute42 G16 and S16 review and comparison a little bit ago and both of those are pretty inexpensive. Plus they often have sales for half price off or close to it. Definitely check those out and see if they interest you enough to make a purchase or let me know if there are any specifications you're after, since I might be able to help direct you further.

[@TheFrenchy82]

@@Shmuptopia Thanks for your advise !! 😉

[@Shmuptopia]

​@@TheFrenchy82It's my pleasure. I have an entire controller playlist if that helps!

[@SonofTzeentch]

Back when I got into shmups via Touhou (~2017) I researched preferred controller types on various touhou message boards/reddit/etc.. A large amount of western Touhou players at the time preferred keyboard (japanese community played mostly on pad/stick), some even being quite elitist about it, i.e. that tap-dodge precision of keyboards could not be reached with other input devices such as pads and arcade sticks. Similarly, the author of "Full Extent of the Jam", an expert-level DoDonpachi player, used similar arguments to say that keyboards were the superior input device for bullet hell games. I.e. there's precedent in some sectors of the shmup community for leverless controllers. If I had started playing shmups with keyboard, I would have had an easier time initially. At at the time, I was mostly familiar with using keyboard for all games other than fighting games (used arcade stick for those), but I wanted to improve my inputs on arcade stick, so I learned to play the Touhou games (starting in order, so the first 5 PC-98 games) on arcade stick. I still play shmups with arcade stick today; didn't improve my fighting game execution too much (except for directional changes, those did improve vastly, just not super useful in those games). Arcade sticks are a lot of fun, and pretty good for sudden large movements with a lot of directional changes in them imo (Raizing & Psikyo-style games, though depends on the latter). I wouldn't say any input device is ultimately of the sort that it gives a competitive edge in shmups though, judging from people I've seen play and various record holders in various games.

[@Shmuptopia]

Thanks for swinging by! That's actually what I suspected and why I originally bought a Snackbox Micro back in 2022 (though I didn't end up using it until the start of this year). But essentially, I figured that I could apply more of a scientific breakdown to a game I was super into so that movements could be calculated by precise tap amounts on a single button as opposed to a dpad. There's a French Shmup player that uses keyboard and it's always interesting to hear him banging out movements systematically.

[@liamconverse8950]

​@@ShmuptopiaFor diagonals you have to press two buttons though right? I first played Street Fighter on zsnes with a keyboard. Now I can barely do a fireball with a keyboard. I can't imagine doing 720's like Hugo's super leverless

[@Shmuptopia]

@@liamconverse8950 Yeah, the game I'm referring to was one where I could, in theory, convert my no-bomb/no-miss routing to only up/down or right/left at specific times where the risks were greatest, otherwise more average movements using two buttons for diagonals would definitely be fine to use. But for the single presses, I just meant if it was one where a single direction can be counted, before then going in another single direction or a combination to still head in a diagonal direction since these are tap dodge instances.

[@liamconverse8950]

I wonder how much lower his score would be on a real Dodonpachi arcade machine

[@Shmuptopia]

@@liamconverse8950 I don't recall the guy's name, but it would be interesting to see the results for sure! Also, I recognize the dolphin. Once my Psikyo mini series is finished, I'm definitely sharing those games in a new light. They don't get enough attention.

[@MotWhinnana]

Some good thoughts. Back in the day I played arcade games on keyboard (arrow keys) on kaillera and on stick at arcade--mostly because I couldn't get a stick at home and I had to make the best of it. It's a "whatever works" kind of thing because I don't think there's an unique advantage outside of very niche micro/macro things (L/R stuff in fighting games, but that doesn't apply to other arcade games, and even optimally most people really aren't at the level where the distinction matters), and I think the "feel" thing is a bigger issue. Despite so many years on both, I just think stick "feels" better for me, and ultimately something "feeling" better will do more for you than just trying to look for raw optimization, so if you have a desire to switch, you should do it if you think it's better for your play overall My one thing about hitbox is I'll never quite get the ASD Spacebar thing. WASD Spacebar feels right in FPS games, but in arcade games made for the stick/dpad movement, it just makes no sense to me, and still seems like a conceptual disconnect. Obviously people have figured it out and used it well, but I'm just too boomer brained for it maybe.

[@Shmuptopia]

Yeah, I do find it interesting how some have entertained topics such as whether one or the other is still viable or better when it varies a fair amount depending on what type of game you're playing. I think there are benefits whether you're on stick, pad, or all-button controllers and to me, it just makes sense to embrace them all - provided each speaks to you on some level. There's no replacing stick for certain shooters, and interestingly enough, I don't see myself ever using stick for fighting games. The intention isn't to be close-minded to the idea, but it genuinely doesn't feel like the path to align myself with currently. That said, jumping in to sample that anyway could reveal some interesting things, too!

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

What a coincidence, I plan to go back to fighting game with keyboard this time. After I am done with deviant Gammoth in GenU.

[@Shmuptopia]

Solid! Enjoy it, and thanks for watching as always.

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

@@Shmuptopia I tried it a few times back then, I can easily execute some motion inputs easier and some are even more challenging like doing air versions of Rachel Alucard's tiny nobela.

[@glltyt]

Very nice, I love using my leverless controller wherever I can. Maybe doing that enough made it so this kind of thing feels natural. I definitely understand how going from a fighting game to free 4 directional movement can be taxing on your hands though if you're not used to continuously holding up and down with left or right constantly. It's definitely a different experience. Try a 3D action game! The movement is a fun challenge. N64 games work pretty well because they're designed without a right stick camera and have a reasonable amount of buttons. Fun time.

[@Shmuptopia]

I can only imagine what a 3D game would be like with one of these. There actually aren't too many that I play, since I've always been far more drawn to 2d games but every once in a while, something speaks to me. Thanks so much for jumping in!

[@ronniepatterson2827]

I remember using actual console compatable flightsticks with my shmups back in the olden times. Using my right hand instead of my left thumb took some getting use to, but once it clicked it was great.Using a real trigger for shooting really upped the immersion when piloting jets- planes, & spacecraft. Sadly, flightstick options on consoles are extremely limited these days, & what few we do have probably isn't compatable with current shmups.

[@Shmuptopia]

I can totally relate to the actual trigger on a flightstick. I haven't had one or used one since the late '90s or early 2000s when I played Fury 3 on Windows 95 or 98 - I don't recall which. That feels like another life at this point. I remember this cool racing game on PC called Cyber Speed as well! Thanks for watching, Ronnie!

[@CrowsofAcheron]

I've heard this ost before. Deja vu.

[@Shmuptopia]

The OG and v1.5 versions of the OST are both solid.

[@BareKnuckleRoo]

I play most shmups on PC on a keyboard, does that count? Ahahah. I suspect that a hitbox style stick is better than a Dpad in the sense that you can make more rapid up/down or left/right alternating movements, not that it's usually necessary to do these in a shmup. I used to play Dpad a ton for stuff but nowadays I find a Dpad simply doesn't have the precision of a stick or a hitbox style controller.

[@Shmuptopia]

I hear that! I still use dpad casually if I'm not doing anything too serious, but for tackling certain things, dpad is pretty risky. I also did a clear of Graze Master GM a number of weeks ago using the DOIO Hitpad controller I did a video on and that's a very simple and generous game, but it was still a lot of fun playing through it on a different controller.

[@Evixyn]

Is this black scape?

[@Shmuptopia]

I'm not sure what black scape is.