My Experience Debating Ben Shapiro

[@AlexOConnorClips]

Watch the debate with Ben Shapiro here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r6TTgYyZf618ac0&ab_channel=PremierUnbelievable%3F

[@Nomxla]

I definitely read “my experience dating Ben Shapiro” I was confused💀💀💀

[@HarryNicNicholas]

i read "teabagging"

[@Nomxla]

@@HarryNicNicholas oh god I’m so sorry to hear that

[@YTwatcher926]

​@@HarryNicNicholasI hope you get well soon

[@zsuzsannacircleedge8416]

Me too! Really. We just did not read the "eb" I think.

[@bengsynthmusic]

"He ghosted me because I wasn't doctor."

[@caponhead]

My problem with debates with a guy like Shapiro is sure, maybe in your conversation with him you'll get him to concede, but the next person he talks to he's just going to take his original position. Nothing actually changes, it's just a concession in that discussion, but it's not real or at least from what I see applicable to actually evolving or changing anyone's minds or enhancing their position with new information. I inherently don't like the idea of debates, especially when it's about something scientific because the winner becomes the better communicator and nothing to do with what is actually correct.

[@qayss8977]

Fucking nailed it.

[@Thisworldistoobig]

I was going to say something similar. He may concede something in this interview TODAY, but in his next interview with someone else tomorrow, It's like he did not concede that point at all. Concessions from him are not genuine.

[@herroyung857]

@@Thisworldistoobig It's because people like him are income-reliant on putting up a good show for the side of religion. Can't rake in donations from Jewish fundamentalists unless they feel like their position was argued for.

[@078flash]

That's a brilliant observation. Do you have an example of one of these instances?. It's frustrating when people are provided evidence in contrary to their claims and they double down. It's just become a business now

[@fabioq6916]

He absolutely is a grifter. Zero doubt a out it at all

[@BariLax]

this was a REALLY good ad for the debate, which im consequently going to watch right now

[@lybnychavez6953]

This is from months ago

[@Sanxioned1]

I really like how Alex almost never says "uh" or "um" at all. It's actually pretty amazing.

[@rosalind1635]

He said a quick "ah..." in the first 15 seconds :D

[@dreamaeons]

As i read this, he went “uhm…”

[@daniellove162]

Um, I can’t even do that in the comment section.

[@Lilhaggis747]

as I read this I heard him say um

[@greyshepherd3456]

My grandfather told me, these are called 'thinking words', remove them from your vocabulary and you'll instantly sound a lot smarter than most people around you. Speak with conviction.

[@MorbiusBlueBalls]

okay but "making theist question their belief and making lesbians question their sexuality" is the hardest bar I've seen in history of humanity

[@paulsacramento5995]

A good and honest theist will question their belief pretty regularly.

[@MorbiusBlueBalls]

@@roems6396 idk if you're joking but he meant that he's so handsome that even lesbians will fall for him in a joking manner

[@MorbiusBlueBalls]

@@paulsacramento5995 just questioning isn't enough. you gotta make a rational assessment

[@paulsacramento5995]

@@MorbiusBlueBalls Absolutely, that is why I said a "good and honest theist".

[@roems6396]

@@paulsacramento5995 This just isn’t true. I know that theists say that they question their beliefs, but they don’t. They are programmed not to do so. Questioning means that they don’t have enough faith and then they won’t go to heaven. That’s what childhood indoctrination,with the concept of hell, does to people. If they truly question their beliefs and research the claims, then they become agnostic atheists.

[@skepticalcentral8795]

Alex is always a pleasure to watch.

[@justmbhman]

He's very smart

[@MartijnMuller]

Of all the debates I have seen with Ben Shapiro over the years -which are not as many as this comment suggest, but more than is good for my mental health- this is one you can truly be proud of. It was incredibly satisfying to see someone not just able to handle his style, but intellectually counter it and get your points across in a respectful way.

[@jordanmuller4735]

A “wall of text” is a great way to describe Ben.

[@TheShortStory]

Or a Gish gallop

[@thevaccinator666]

That's reductive.

[@chocopuddingcup83]

@@TheShortStory Gish Gallop is definitely the best way to describe him. I remember watching a youtube short of a linguist breaking apart the way Ben talks and showing that it's mostly for-show and put people off.

[@JEdwarrd]

​@@chocopuddingcup83 That's why he promoted clips of himself "owning a SJW" on college campuses, he would overwhelm young minds, then use it to mock the Progressive- left. I believe he engages in sophistry as a form of deflection, much like Jordan Peterson does.

[@1JO_M]

A ZIONIST LEPRECHAUN.

[@malletandchisel5154]

I am not an Atheist Alex, but I really enjoy your content. I find you to be very reasonable, compassionate and generous. I love to watch you, I find your argumentation reasonable and compelling and your delivery thoughtful and thought provoking. Thank you for doing what you do.

[@DartNoobo]

Yeah, Alex compelled me to do some research of the Bible and it definitely strengthened my faith. Truth is never afraid of questions, so Alex is welcome to ask more

[@SoroushTorkian]

Alex can probably turn atheists into theists and theists into atheists if he wanted to lol

[@86Corvus]

Atheism is the better position. Not having yourself defined as moral or not by the criteria of adherence to cults standards is liberating and helps you become a better person.

[@DartNoobo]

@@86Corvus ow yeah, shedding morals is definitely a positive move

[@86Corvus]

Not to mention not having to normalize fairytale happenings as facts does wonders for your rational analysis of reality. Ofcourse its a bit catch 22 where you already have to act more rationally to reject the fairytales as truth and see them in proper context which is -fairytales...

[@viancavarma3455]

tbh this is the first time ive ever seen ben act reasonable. The only reason imo that ben was so well natured in this video is because Alex is so well established for being extremely articulate and a good faith debater.

[@ptolemyauletesxii8642]

That's Shapiro's M.O. Very similar to Jordan Peterson. When they are debating more sophisticated people, like Alex, they put on a facade of respectability and seriousness, but once they are in more familiar and friendly territory they revert to being utter hacks, strawmanning everything on sight and making the most ludicrous statements imaginable. Peterson is the worst. He goes from telling people to steel man their opponent's arguments to calling everyone who disagrees with him radical Marxists who want to throw everyone in a gulag.

[@bortsbymcbort5350]

exactly, because that was the right rhetorical move in this situation. a gish gallop is not going to work with a practiced debater if the conversation with alex had *any* impact on shapiro i haven't seen evidence of it. so in my mind, the parsimonious answer is obvious and bleak

[@sandmantheman]

Then you haven't watched enough of his debates. He behaves this way most of the time when he isn't being heckled by college kids trying to play gotcha.

[@viancavarma3455]

@@sandmantheman that may be true but he does say the most absurd shit in those interactions with college kids. someone.. smarter, would do that

[@ptolemyauletesxii8642]

@@sandmantheman Like his interview with Andrew Neil?

[@lookbovine]

“Don’t mention the war”…

[@username.exenotfound2943]

I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right

[@JohnBenson-ro6hh]

😂

[@justmbhman]

Yeah, Alex is good with those one liners, but on a serious note, the fact there's a partly religiously motivated war going on doesn't help Alex's case. The debate question, "Is religion good/bad for society" is problematic, because it depends on which religion/sub-religion. You could say the Israel-Palestine war's between radical-Judaism (Netanyahu and others) and radical-Islam (Hamas). But, you can't say, because radical Islam is bad, religion is bad across the board.

[@randomnobody8770]

@@justmbhman You can totally say that, you just have to unpack it. Privileging an unfalsifiable belief in the supernatural over the sanctity of life in this world - an inherent feature of religion - regularly causes people to sacrifice life on behalf of the supernatural. Whether you're hurling virgins into a volcano to appease the Sun god, or draping you child in bombs to have them blow up infidels, a true belief in unfalsifiable supernatural claims can cause an otherwise sane, empathetic person to act like a psychopath.

[@Sultansekte]

@@justmbhman But it's not a war between religions. It's just a one sided occupation.

[@vincentorsini]

I just woke up and I thought the title read, "My Experience DATING Ben Shapiro."

[@dullyvampir83]

Too brutal for youtube.

[@abcdefzhij]

Yooooooo HAHAHHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!!!

[@justmbhman]

As Owen Wilson would say "Wow"

[@tonycezar1645]

its kinda of a date if you think about it

[@iamdanielmonroe]

Completely unrelated, but Alex, you looked great with the full and gruff “philosopher’s beard”! Maybe one day you’ll bring it back.

[@MeanOldLady]

Facial pubes almost never look good.

[@alaron5698]

Do you mean how it is in this clip, or has it been even more grown-out at other times? Because in this video it looks a bit too unkempt for my taste.

[@iamdanielmonroe]

@@alaron5698 I’m saying in this video I think it looks great for his face. Recently he’s gone for more of the close cut groomed beard.

[@PeterMasalski93]

Alex wiped Ben and made him admit that 1. State that God is not always moral. 2. Agreed we do not get our morality from scripture. 3. Concede there are things God cannot do. 4. Admit there are moral & logical contradictions throughout the Bible.

[@c4tch]

I haven't seen it yet, just curious from someone who's watched it and clearly organized some insights or outcomes from the conversation: you mention that one of the concessions is that God is not always moral. Was there a distinction made in gnostic thinking/philosophy or immaterial divinity vs. the materialistic God-creator of the universe?

[@mindlander]

He has always admitted those things lol

[@testingsomething5280]

@@mindlander You're not supposed to give him any props at all

[@RottingDragon]

Thing is, he does that all the time in debates. He'll concede things and acknowledge good points. Then the next week you'll see making the exact same points he conceded the week before.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@RottingDragon it's just a ploy, give a little and seem genuine while you continue to be dishonest. or maybe not dishonest but a disgusting person.

[@memecity9849]

Maybe it's because Alex isn't some college freshman who has no experience debating. Alex is sharp, well studied, and can recognize fallacious talking points better than the average person

[@AJHart-eg1ys]

I would congratulate him for being one of the few adults with the stones to debate Shapiro. The challenge is always out there. Only students attempt to take it on

[@VSPoliFight]

Being a professional atheist is exceptionally easy.

[@Rockyzach88]

@@AJHart-eg1ys Lol this is hilarious. Plenty of people see what the media character ben shapiro is, but they don't have the will or means to confront him in a debate. Debate is spectacle regardless; it's almost a useless endeavor outside of making money and enriching the media apparatus.

[@Rockyzach88]

@@VSPoliFight Absolutely, as atheist is a pretty easy concept.

[@AJHart-eg1ys]

@@Rockyzach88 Shapiro has absolutely settled into a niche with the rise of Daily Wire, etc. And I accept that our younger generations do not see the value in discussion, since they generally present themselves as being too stupid to see the difference between disagreement and hate. The fact that they also present as incapable of telling a good argument with a bad one has produced a more spectacle-like environment where earnest exchanges of ideas is fairly rare. This is not by accident. When one side overwhelmingly insists on using a foundation of feelings, sketchy "logic" and misrepresentation, it's no surprise it doesn't want a solid back-and-forth regarding those ideas. Take care.

[@s.muller8688]

The one thing i have learned in the last 50 years is that debates lead nowhere, It's like playing ping pong, dialogues on the other hand, have a chance.

[@justmbhman]

Really? I disagree. Let's debate that.

[@Ludvigvanamadeus]

the point of a debate is not to convince the other person, it's to convince the audience.

[@justmbhman]

​@@Ludvigvanamadeus The problem is that Atheists will inevitably find Alex more convincing, and vice versa. You'd need to ask agnostics, but they're rare...

[@EldestZelot]

​@@LudvigvanamadeusYou can't reason someone out of a position they never reasoned themselves into. The point of a debate is to prove your general point. Anything past that is addendum to the original debate.

[@ginge641]

You just used a different word to describe the same thing and pretended it was profound.

[@sammarchant2703]

Alex O’Connor is my favorite atheist. He’s a reminder that I actually really enjoy listening to people who disagree with me as long as they are humble and intellectually honest. Every compliment he gave towards Ben Shapiro there could easily be redirected towards him.

[@user-rx1mb5fp7c]

"Like the philsophical cuc that you are". Fabulous choice of wording!

[@williamwilson6499]

Philosophical.

[@user-rx1mb5fp7c]

@@williamwilson6499 How long did it take you to think of such a witty and constructive reply...? Out of interest, do you spend your entire day and night going through you-tube comments looking for typographical errors or is it only when you are bored?

[@adamw2785]

I know the technique as "Gish galloping". That is, throwing out a bunch of points to overwhelm your opponent.

[@godisbollocks]

I still haven't mustered the courage to watch the conversation with Peter Hitchens

[@davishall]

As someone who expected to be really uncomfortable I'd say just go for it. Hitchens manages to be so obviously wrong that all my embarrassment is towards him, not Alex. And it's pretty funny to see someone absolutely blow themselves up in front of the most charitable and calm debater. At multiple points Peter complains about something, Alex says he's more than happy to pivot the discussion and Peter just gets more pissed.

[@godisbollocks]

@@davishall Hitchens is petty and rather juvenile. You can see glimpses of those traits in his infamous debate with his brother Christopher.

[@JEdwarrd]

@@godisbollocks Owen Jones did a interview with Peter 10+yrs ago, he was relaxed & opened up about his life- having a cold, strict, detached father in the military, and wanting to become a respected public figure, his brother's success bothered him, Peter wanted to counter Christopher's ideology. Alex's interview really brought the ingrained petulance out in Peter, which exposed the Tory brain rot & his self righteous entitlement. Embarrassingly! Reminds me of Prince Andrews attitude. Ann Widdecombe too. The hubris, while looking a fool.

[@godisbollocks]

@JEdwarrd The funniest part of the debate was when Peter attempted to quote Rudyard Kipling, messed up the quote completely while chastising himself for messing it up, then Christopher gets up there and quotes the passage perfectly from memory without having been prepared to do so.

[@JEdwarrd]

@@godisbollocks Agreed😋 I find it fascinating to observe the psychological dynamics between ppl, I brought my popcorn for that interview/ debate.

[@Mando-wx6pn]

Ive watched you grow up on yt and i must say you are as impressive and insightful as i had expected. Truly one of your generations greatest thinkers. I congratulate you, young sir. Keep up the excellent work.

[@adriangoetz5108]

I will say I loathe Ben, but I do listen to him on occasion. Not so much because I think he'll make a useful point, but it's good to do a temperature check in what talking points the other side of the political spectrum are hearing. If you don't have any idea what they're talking about it's hard to meaningfully interface with them.

[@williamfowler8686]

I am a Christian, and enjoy watching Alex debate. He does it well and it is good to be challenged on your beliefs. I really enjoyed the Ben debate. It's nice to see polite but blunt argumentation.

[@sstrick47]

"we want this to be evergreen" means we don't want you to talk about current topics.

[@JEdwarrd]

In other words, avoid the topics that expose Ben.

[@christopherneal3138]

yeah that is what it means, i thought that was overt.

[@JEdwarrd]

@@christopherneal3138 Overt to anyone who understands the art & purpose of obfuscation for propaganda purposes.

[@khaiuschill310]

It’s a shame because Alex would probe well around it. But it makes sense that Ben would be exhausted about it plus his view is pretty easily findable

[@JEdwarrd]

@@khaiuschill310 A shame? It's deliberate intellectual dishonesty on Ben's part. Remember when Ben flipped out at the British Conservative reporter? I do. He is spineless.

[@heroclix0rz]

He doesn't talk fast because he's good at debating, he talks fast because it's a public debating strategy to get points in faster than the opponent can dispute them. He's not trying to win the debate, he's saying to his onlooking fans, "Look, I just threw out this belief you hold, and this person you disagree with didn't dispute it. That makes you smart for believing it. That makes me popular with people who need to be told they're smart." He's literally only noteworthy because there's a crowd watching. But put him in a room with only intellectuals and he would just embarrass himself.

[@josephmanno4514]

Clearly the intellectual he just debated doesn't agree with you. Food for thought.

[@EarleMonroe]

I just today learned the phrase “The Gish Gallop” (I have friend of that last name, who mentioned that it’s named after a relative of theirs.) It’s prioritizing the quantity of your arguments instead of their quality, in order to swamp or overwhelm your opponent. I haven’t watched the whole debate yet, but it seems like Alex didn’t get sucked into that, didn’t just lose his cool (which B.S. often counts on so he can berate you for being overly emotional etc.) and was able to see some of the redeeming qualities in Ben

[@evanwilliamson8338]

Maybe this is overly charitable, but some people just talk fast naturally, and maybe Ben Shapiro is among them. If so, it may still be contributing to his success (also in part because I think people tend to associate faster talking with faster thinking and therefore intelligence), but then I don't think you could fault him for it.

[@JimBobJoeB0b]

@@evanwilliamson8338yeah, I for example tend to start talking really wicked fast when I’m divulging information about a topic I’m interested in and/or something I’m generally excited about, to the point of almost incoherent mumbling 😅

[@g4p5l6]

Enjoyed this. Thanks for posting.

[@Squigglies]

I appreciate that Alex is taking the time to actually REACH these people and distill an approach based on their communicative style and personality - it's a RARE skill, and it must be draining, but I hope more people make that effort; we'd learn more, argue less and these debates would be less tedious to watch. I grew very tired of people stonewalling or trying to bully / wear each other out with double speak or tactics to defend a pre-established view, instead of the mutual desire to understand each other, even if they disagree. I am definitely not a fan of Shapiro's approach and views, but would be willing to watch that debate - thank you for this video, it gives me a sliver of hope in people.

[@tomdebevoise]

Alex is being very generous here. Shapiro tends to overuse Gish Gallops and Red Herring in his debates and dismissively "poisons the well" when dealing with the public. Medi Hassan discussed the proper use of these in his book "Win Every Argument;" however, I do not believe Shapiro's mannerisms comport with Hassan's guidelines.

[@SebastianDeery]

Alex please do a video on how you would have debated Christopher Hitchens. What would you have challenged him on?

[@mirpanda1]

3:43 "He's very quick very charitable, I think people get Ben Shapiro wrong", yet all these grifters in the comments are running their mouths at the men in the arena.

[@Tpazmachine]

multiple arguments glued together quickly....... that would be a gish gallop.

[@frankhoffman3566]

I have watched Shapiro debate. I do not think his speed of thought is particularly rapid. Rather I think his speeding through points has been a tactic he's developed. He uses it first of all to have a signature uniqueness, and to cause his debate opponents to leave points unaddressed. I do not dispute that he is an intelligent man, but his overcaffeinated debating style is used more to stand out from other debaters, rather than being an artifact of a rapid thinker.

[@Cecilia-ky3uw]

I would tend to disagree, rapidly speaking is very, very difficult to just 'use as a tactic. And I do notice it in fact comes naturally to a lot of intelligent people.

[@frankhoffman3566]

@@Cecilia-ky3uw I try to avoid thinking people are stupid. I have so often been wrong about it. It particularly distresses me when, after the briefest interaction, one classifies the other as stupid. It seems to be a common human weakness to say such things. Even so, in my life experience, I've noticed a higher speed of talking among those who don't spend time thinking. I hear many, many words that don't say much. By contrast, undeniably intelligent people spend most time listening. When they talk, their words are carefully chosen. So, in a general sense, I cannot agree with your premise. Talking fast seems pretty widespread across the intelligence spectrum.

[@Cecilia-ky3uw]

@@frankhoffman3566 Again, I find that talking very fast is actually more of a trait for those above average in intelligence in particular. You cannot generate words from nothing 'as a tactic', that requires real brainpower behind it. Besides your whole schlack about 'listening' isn't so much a reality as a stereotype. Many and I daresay most intelligent folks are passionate and outspoken, idealistic and beaming(or perhaps cynical and observant of what they see) often times. They have a lot to say and not enough mouths, time and language to say them. And since we're going in conjecture, while the above is moreso backed by other statements here and there, this one is me: When they're quiet, it's not because they've tempered down for the most part, it's because hail has pelted them back into their shells, and left them shy little things. How have they been pelted? By the disapproval of others. They talk too much, diverge too much in interests, they start to realise their only way to fit in is silence.

[@frankhoffman3566]

@@Cecilia-ky3uw ... I do not know what a "schlack" is, so it's hard to rebut ithat I can only assure you that I've lived a long life and met a lot of people along the way. I have never been prone to stereotypes which I find lazy.. My observations have governed my conclusions. Since I accept that my own observations are not universal, It is quite possible that others experience things differently. I nevertheless do stand by my conclusions and I do wish you well.

[@sir_aken9706]

@@Cecilia-ky3uwno, it really isn’t. Especially if you’re passionate about the point you’re making.

[@MizzouRah78]

The same guy who interviews my go-to weightlifting guru (Dr. Mike Isratel) also interviews one of my favorite atheist influencers. Nice!

[@haveaday1812]

Ben Sharpio is the undisputed king of the Gish Gallop.

[@boliusabol822]

He didn't do that in conversation with Alex. And infact Alex belaboured his points for rhetoric, which is a different kind of nuisance.

[@hrc7715]

I'll always find it hilarious that creationists have these things named after them

[@mattjones4257]

William Lane Craig says, "hold my beer."

[@boliusabol822]

@@mattjones4257 You have no understanding whatsoever. WLC does not gish gallop. He lists his arguments in a formal debate where you have eg 15 minutes. The opponent can do their research. and has time to reply to e.g. one or two of them, and WLC always addresses the opponent's points. The opponent is free to pick which of WLC's arguments to deal with.

[@arkyudetoo9555]

I am an atheist myself, but I am a big fan of Ben as well. I was so happy when they finally met face to face. I guess most people who tries to engage Ben has a hidden agenda when they ask questions, you might think that you can disguise it in a form of formal question but, Ben has gone through a lot of debates that he knows which questions are legit. Alex came into this debate without any agenda but he genuinely wants to ubderstand Ben's view and also put his own view on the table for Ben to pick apart. Granted that their topic is about religion and not politics.

[@dafedge]

Ben gets too much credit when his debating tactic seems to be to lie so fast you can't debunk his first lie before he starts the second third fourth fifth and sixth lies

[@joed1950]

Quite difficult to defend Shapiro. In no way does he express or show humility. He does seem aloof and unable to accept any position other than his own. He doesn't really have arguments.

[@dimitriuss]

ngl when I read the title i saw " My experience DATING Ben Shapiro" was kinda more interested in that

[@HoscoFelix]

I read the title as "My Experience Dating Ben Shapiro" and got somewhat confused

[@JackTenrec-qk4zp]

Are they talking about the same Ben Shapiro who threw a tantrum when Andrew Neil asked him few legitimate questions? Is that the guy ?

[@AJHart-eg1ys]

He's so often wrong that everyone knows the one or two times he got flustered, rather than the hundreds that he embarrassed dimwitted people spouting nonsense. 😅

[@bennymountain1]

Where is this debate they speak of?

[@JEdwarrd]

On Alex's channel: " Ben Shapiro Challenges Atheist's Ethical Worldview"

[@anonymoususer6037]

This kind of public debate is more entertaining than anything. Rather than try to come to a better understanding, it's about one-up-manship.

[@Limpass610]

It is Daily-wire is a business They do content farming The most glaring one is brett her desk,chair table lamp Are all in an office at the daily wire building The backkgroud to her videos is a wall paper to make it look like a room Its a cubicle Behund the camera their is a makeup artist Lighting crew And sound crew She probbaly has a team that picks her video to react Its all show, which i understand but goes to show these are doing something to be grabbing that much attention And it cant be good

[@Rockyzach88]

aka Spectacle debate.

[@fuferito]

With a longer beard, Alex looks uncannily like Marcus Aurelius' co-emperor of Rome, Lucius Aurelius Verus.

[@Alex.The.Lionnnnn]

You're being polite because you're a professional. Let's be honest though. Talk fast, talk loudly, and most importantly speak over the top of others. He is snearing, smarmy and grifter. I mean come on.

[@dhooth]

fair enough, i wouldn't judge somebody's character by one "evergreen" conversation i had with them

[@hippomancy]

Shapiro is used to an echo chamber- the producers asking for an "evergreen" tone is them asking for Shapiro not to be critiqued too closely or strongly. his "charity" is transactional. he still has an agenda. he does not wish to engage, he wishes to extend his viewpoint, not adapt it or alter it.

[@ProductionsFromBeyon]

If you look at pro-debate (which I want to say Ben participated in?), speed is a huge factor. If you talk fast enough that your opponent can’t respond then you win.

[@m.n.executor1902]

But that's exactly why I don't think Shapiro is that great/honest of a speaker, he changes the wording of he's argument when proven wrong without saying outright that he was wrong on a point first.

[@seanwalsh7542]

re listen to this conversation, that is not at all true

[@m.n.executor1902]

@@seanwalsh7542 give me a time stamo where he says he was wrong

[@VSPoliFight]

​@@m.n.executor1902😂🤣 why would he admit to being wrong when he's not nor believes himself wrong. Rephrasing your point isn't an admission of being wrong it's placating opposition that lacks understanding

[@m.n.executor1902]

@@VSPoliFight Wow. Just wow

[@VSPoliFight]

@@m.n.executor1902 lol yes I am flabbergasted by your bias and lack of self awareness.

[@johnnycang]

Alex really is going for that middle of the road Persona. Destiny called it very politely without judgement. But, he definitely is. Ben will only concedde meaningless points. Never something ideological. So I think Alex is being absurdly charitable.

[@senormojo]

I have a hard time seeing Shapiro as charitable since he’s so patently disingenuous in his argumentation. I say this because he is not after any real intellectual pursuit, but rather on an ideological crusade. His gishgalloping and verbal swerving are all tactics to confuse and trap his “opponents”, because that’s what they are to him. Alex O’Connor may be a gentleman, but his soft assessment of Shapiro and others (Lane Craig comes to mind) seems somewhat contrived.

[@Worldsportstalk24]

I completely disagree with this

[@jessicapogson2645]

His assessment comes from a place of privilege.

[@computingnerd7005]

Completely agree, Ben's debate strategy boils down to "cite off as much as possible while giving a grossly misinterpreted conclusion of each, so that when others try to point out such he'll ignore so as he's said another two paragraphs in the time it took for them to start speaking of such". It's the epitome of conservative debate, speak so much hogwash that they can't fact check you on all of it, and keep going so that they can't respond with any type of coherence. Absolutely wild how such a person has ever been considered a reputable debater.

[@nonyobussiness3440]

He makes bias political news commentary. Aka he is an entertainer. His goal is to entertain

[@sergendestroy]

Something I've never seen mentioned in any debate with Ben is the specific technique he uses. It's called Gish gallop. It's a rhetorical technique where the user overwhelms other by throwing multiple premises and arguments in succession, often each relying on the previous one, regardless of their validity or soundness. Like he said, at the end you have this glued mesh of arguments. It has so many points that you don't know where to start addressing it, and the whole aesthetic of having a castle of arguments drags you into it. So you might have something like A->B->C->D->E spewed out in the span of 1 minute (20 seconds if it's Ben), and maybe A is sound and valid, but B is not sound, but because he's already talking you into C you can't address it, and then C is sound and valid ONLY if B is not sound. And so now that you're entering into D, you see that it is not a valid argument, but welp, doesn't matter, cause he already used it to drive E home and thus you get "COLLEGE LIBERALS DESTROYED BY FACTS AND LOGIC".

[@winterbird4447]

This is very accurate.

[@Phi1618033]

What I don't understand is how so many people think that Ben Shapiro is such a good debater when his arguments are often riddled with holes. It might be that the people who debate him are simply not perspicacious enough to see all the holes in his arguments.

[@iddomargalit-friedman3897]

Well he did win the debate with alex imo, and I'm an atheist.

[@Gambit0590]

​@@iddomargalit-friedman3897you're delusional if you think Ben won

[@Phi1618033]

@@iddomargalit-friedman3897 How does one "win" such an argument?

[@computingnerd7005]

@@Phi1618033 The point of a debate is to have a conversation between multiple parties to reach a consensus on a given topic, to win a debate is to either a) convince the other debaters that your argument is best, or b) convince the onlookers that your arguments are correct/the most logical.

[@Phi1618033]

@@computingnerd7005 That's not a debate. that's a dialogue.

[@irnbrewhaha]

I don't think Alex has seen Ben's show... Ben is pretty civil and pleasant when he debates people he knows can hold him accountable.

[@Sunfried1]

C’mon Alex: Ben relies on Gish galloping to overwhelm his debate opponents.

[@Mopark25]

And yet it never happened with Alex...

[@Nissenov]

​@@Mopark25 It happens to most, when they talk about something they burn for.🖖🏻

[@terrencemoldern2756]

Nice excuse for you being unable to prove Ben wrong buddy... cope harder

[@markreardon6663]

​@terrencemoldern2756 it's exactly what he does, Peterson does the same thing. Where they come unstuck is when the other person doesn't get sucked in and distracted. Both know thier arguments are pretty easy to pick apart so they know they have to control the pace and direction of the conversation rather than actually address the point. Beating up on college kids is easy but they both come unstuck when they come up against prepared experienced debaters.

[@terrencemoldern2756]

@@markreardon6663 lol what person has ever truly won a debate with Ben or Jordan Peterson? There’s pretty much no one aside from that BBC reporter guy with Ben years ago... and he only lost that because he TOOK it as a debate and attack when the BBC reporter didn’t even DISAGREE with him... literally the only example of someone “not getting sucked into” what Ben or JP does... Wasn’t even debating... So really I don’t see what you are on about with that being a supposedly losing strategy. But that’s besides the point. As you aren’t even right. Like I said. How’s about you actually PROVE what Ben is saying wrong instead of whining like a preschooler... It’s honestly a joke how sad sacks of 💩 like you try and devalue and belittle Ben Shapiro... yet you are the same people who will NEVER debate or prove him wrong. I mean seriously. Also I love it when you people bring up college students... 1. Ben debates plenty more besides College students. In fact he literally has a segment on his show called “Ben Talks With (Blank)” where he often hosts other prominent political figures, politicians, influencers and much more. Often times being people he disagrees with as well. 2. That really isn’t as much of a slam dunk as you pretend it is. They’re COLLEGE STUDENTS... their meant to be the smartest and brightest young minds in our nation. To the point that they get to attend prestigious institutions and academy’s. Being more well educated then over 60% of the average populace... So really them being college students is in fact a telling sign for how strong Ben’s points are... as even the so called “Intellectuals” of our society fail to prove them wrong. Are College kids not that bright? Yeah I’d say so... but that is more telling of how bad the education system has gotten and that’s not why Ben goes to campuses for his speeches anyway. In fact, yeah despite your downright awful claim... Ben has from my knowledge never gone to a College to debate any specific student in his career. Maybe professors and deans but never a student... what you must be talking about are the Q&A portions of his talks. Which in case you don’t know... Aren’t even meant to be debates... their meant to be questions the students can ask. So again, nice try with your whole false idea for how things work.

[@anzamanto4407]

I read 'dating' several times and suffice to say I was confused

[@TuckerWilson12]

I think its fair to say he was charitable IN THAT DEBATE. He is far, far, far from charitable when discussing ideas with people from groups he is bigoted towards. Oh and yes, he is a bigot. I hope the folks who, like me, think the debate was generally productive and enjoyable, don't lose sight of Shapiro's general demeanor and vitriol.

[@kiwim3p587]

The best debate with Ben Shapiro I've seen was an interview with Andrew Neil.

[@reallifeistoflat]

my read on your discussion with Ben was not humility but weaseling. When he is backed into a corner that cannot be defended, a motte without a bailey, he then will admit how you have a good point because he knows he can't continue down the road he was on. Unlike other rightwing pundits or grifters, i do think Ben genuinely believes the horrible things he claims to, which is part of why i'm actually concerned with people who think he makes good points and i'm not concerned about people like Milo who is a troll. Milo is a temporary problem. Ben is a zealot and true believer.

[@arkyudetoo9555]

Weaseling is pretty common on most theis. Personally, when I hear theist weaseling, I consider it something positive, because the actually thus is here the logical side of the mind clashes with their beliefs.

[@Andrew_Sherman]

I respect you for being able to sit there and debate Shapiro.

[@edjensen7907]

I’d have to disagree with you’re assessment of him, anyone who ties multiple points together to try and get ahead and steer the “talk” is in fact cheating you out of a fair and balanced discussion

[@lawrencefrost9063]

I had a smile watching this. Good people these two.

[@deepmordor2411]

Anyone caught *the bit from Richard Dawkins?* "Unusually ???"

[@martinrippel9751]

What a kind way to call Ben Shapiro a gish gallop queen.

[@sercastamere9853]

Inaccurately, too. O'Connor tried to reduce all of the arguments and as usual failed to do so successfully. He has tried this with Trent Horn, Bishop Barron, Jordan Peterson, and William Lane Craig to no results because he is fundamentally wrong.

[@justmbhman]

Hmm, so Alex, compliments Ben Shapiro on his articulateness, good faith debate tactics, and general friendliness, and you take away "Alex is calling him a gish gallop queen?" That's a funny interpretation...

[@DanielHernandez-cb7zu]

Being a devout christian myself, I very deeply enjoy your content. In many ways it's brought me closer to my faith by challenging how I view certain parts of it. I think it's extremely healthy to take a step back and take a look at what you believe and analyze why you believe it, rather than blindly follow what you're told. I also think you address christianity with objective respect. You never bash the faith but simply pose what a non-believer would say in a rational way. Though I'm sure you get plenty of comments like this, I do still pray that you return to faith in Jesus. I don't think your views of the world are in as much antithesis to christianity as you would think. God bless you sir!

[@landon4278]

Alex's experience seems to be different than what most people experience with Ben Shapiro, and I think it's because he actually has to listen to what Alex is saying because he knows he could get burned at any moment.

[@arkyudetoo9555]

I blame social media for turning people into someone who is uncomfortable in the idea that they could be wrong.

[@finlaytemple1744]

I dont see the correlation ngl

[@arkyudetoo9555]

@@finlaytemple1744 Sorry, I meant to say social media is to blame for people who are so sure that they're are right when they're not.

[@finlaytemple1744]

@arkyudetoo9555 ahhhh right I see, yeah I get that view, definitely in part to rampant misinformation in my opinion

[@morgezorge6387]

depends how you see it, as far as i'm seeing it reliigous societies are the only ones creating enough offspring to actually perpetuate to themselves. so the questions is not whether it's good, but actually neccessary

[@deanlowdon8381]

That’s such a twisted logic! 😂

[@arkyudetoo9555]

If we ask whether it is necessary (religion), then we have to go through every religion.

[@robinrehlinghaus1944]

​@@arkyudetoo9555That depends on whether one wishes to define their essences as different

[@arkyudetoo9555]

@@robinrehlinghaus1944 Agreed

[@arkyudetoo9555]

@@deanlowdon8381Which part/logic is twisted on his comment?

[@tristanrainey5080]

Debated = Owned. Fixed it for you.

[@Idle_Koala]

Classic autism moment

[@2l84me8]

Ben Shapiro’s strategy is often to speak as quick as possible to befuddle the audience and his debate opponent. You can say nothing of value, but if you’re quick and articulate enough, people will think you’re smart.

[@nsbd90now]

There is a reason he only "debates" undergrad-level students and not actual graduate-level adults. Alex O'Conner is a bit of a pseudo-intellect himself, clearly without much beyond a college-level education in a limited area.

[@princeandrey]

What an intelligent & fair-minded young man Mr O"Connor is--in addition to his other great virtues!

[@AussieNaturalist]

You may be right, Alex, but one of the problems with Ben, and people like him, is that they dont admit that they are wrong about X. Y & Z and change their views on those points accordingly, they simply change they way in which they present their arguments so as to not sound like they are wrong, which is extremely dishonest.

[@spacesciencelab]

Let's just acknowledge this incoming greatness of independent media.

[@dazecm]

The point about Shapiro's 'verbal IQ' and how he tends to throw two or three points out at once making it difficult to interrupt and tackle each of his points is pretty much like the 'Gish Gallop' (Google it and Duane Gish) tactic of trying to overwhelm your opponent with an excessive number of points. This kind of debating trickery is not something to be proud of so Shapiro should be called out on it.

[@aleksszukovskis2074]

i absolutely would choose to be a great man like Alex if i wasn't myself - Alexander the great

[@Douglas-nt7jd]

Ben Shapiro doesn't debate. He just aggressively asks 9 questions for every questions you ask first. Since you will always fail to answer all 9 questions before he asks 81 more, you look like you've failed to answer his questions.

[@irish7summits]

'He's very charitable'..... Really? Having heard Ben's many many disgraceful comments on the Palestinians and what should be done with them over the past 8 months or more, I respectfully disagree. He is a dangerous grifter and being of high intellect doesn't give him a pass. Disappointing to hear Alex giving him credibility given how much we know about what Ben really thinks over the past months.

[@EarleMonroe]

Re the tactic mentioned at around 3:00 (speaking rapidly, putting out lots of points at once, gluing them together to try to hide their individual flaws;) I just learned the phrase the Gish Gallop, which suits B.S. to a T

[@tommytigerpants]

“Don’t mention the war” is such a great reference. It’s from Fawlty Towers, a BBC comedy from the 1970s. Watch it.

[@GhostWarmth]

”Just don’t mention the war! I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it!”

[@CyberWeez]

Ben Shapiro is a miserable person

[@xx_soul52_xx97]

Ok so why doesn’t he believe what does he going to say after this clip

[@brothajohn]

Ben Shapiro is not charitable. He was charitable to Alex because if he wasn’t, Alex would probably take him apart.

[@arkyudetoo9555]

I don't think that's the case. I am sure Ben look him up in preoation and concluded that Alex is not dishonest.

[@eleanorburns8686]

I misread the title of this as "My Experience Dating Ben Shapiro", and am relieved to see my eyesight is just failing.

[@mariannecasavant]

Best thing I've ever seen. I've never seen Jordan be torn apart like that. It was almost too good

[@seandery6959]

If you’re referring to the recent one I don’t think anyone “won” it was just an immensely deep dialogue where both sides largely reaffirmed each others opinions

[@jonathanlane3282]

Tbh I think the tough part with Ben is he just decides who to respect based on what he thinks is the quality of their arguments. So he’s rude to college students but nice to fellow debaters

[@FaultyMuse]

I think one of the main things people don't like about Ben Shapiro is that he's just wrong on the facts on a HUGE percentage of the things he says and generally speaking refuses to even acknowledge he might be wrong. I will admit though he seemed unusually cordial in his interview with Alex.

[@YSFmemories]

How do you know it isnt your side whos wrong and that ben is actually correct?

[@kumaranvij]

I don't fault anyone for having a conversation with anyone else. But when there's a lack of bringing to the fore someone's obvious sexism - I mean, do I even need to bring his up? - it's very unnerving and unsettling, as a woman.

[@_BlackSummer]

I hate when ppl say this. I think ppl get pen wrong, after YOUUUU have had one decent interaction with him smh come Alex.

[@da-be-ju]

I got the same feeling. Alex of all people should not have fallen for that.

[@theintelligentmilkjug944]

Pen Phapiro

[@komlat253]

Definitely agee. He matches energy but he really is only charitable when hes in person. But i guess when ur community is kinda wild ,i guess u have to be wild when u are on ur show

[@Where_is_Waldo]

2:57 The Gish method

[@ericfair-layman2429]

Alex is saying Shapiro will be conciliatory if he's shown it. But I think Alex will show Grace no matter what

[@hughjazz5282]

The minion drinks

[@robtarlton]

It was pretty obvious that Ben fancied you. So you're mistaking humility for something else.

[@philtheo]

Hmm 🤔 I watched it. I didn't think it was really a debate in any strong sense of the word; it more of a spirited friendly conservation or dialogue between Ben and Alex. The only real "debate" part of their dialogue was the fact that they were addressing topics on which they disagree. But it wasn't a debate unless one maintains any frank discussion that involves disagreements is a "debate". A better "debate" that's closer to an actual debate is Ben vs. Cenk Uygur of the Young Turks.

[@bobmetcalfe9640]

Given Shapiro's somewhat egregious statements about Muslims and Arabs, I'm not surprised he had a tense evening at the Oxford Union.

[@FatNorthernBigot]

Imagine debating Mr Shapiro. I'm a huge fan of his, but his views on free health care are both surprising and unpleasant.

[@nagranoth_]

unless you're going to say he's for free health care, they're not surprising. I'd rather not imagine spending any amount of time in any context with the likes of Shapiro.

[@asian1599]

it's surprising that a conservative doesn't want free health care?

[@bradwillis6591]

He's a right-wing American, what else did you expect?

[@hrothgr52]

Acting like being opposed to free health care is an out there position is weird.

[@legendofthefall7082]

@@hrothgr52 Being against universal “free” healthcare is absolutely an out there position. The entire industrialized Western world has figured out that healthcare is a both a basic necessity and a market failure, and thus is best administered by a non-profit entity (usually the government). Only right-wing Americans, one of the dumbest groups of people in the West, think it’s normal and good to get bent over by health insurance companies, an entire industry of leaches that add zero value and are literally incentivized to fuck people over.

[@StGroovy]

Just don't ask little Ben about the influence of a certain group of people on American politics. Then he isn't so charitable, because he is controlled opposition.

[@Calabrin1]

Ben Shapiro is a god-awful debater. He sounds like me when I was 10. It’s one logical fallacy after another, he can’t cite or properly interpret statistical data. His entire shtick is, “If I talk really fast and overwhelm others by making fifteen points at once, no one will be able to rebut all of the drivel I’m spouting.” If you can’t make your points one at a time and allow them to stand up to scrutiny, it’s because you know you don’t actually have an argument.

[@DeadSezSo]

When debating whether or not religion is good for society, you can't bring up a war between two religiously opposed groups? Lol

[@justinmj6586]

The West has chosen a side based on many historical factors. You either comply or get destroyed, this is the world. Its not Utopia, all other views come from brainwashing.

[@MegatronYES]

That is certainly a… CHARITABLE evaluation of Shapiro’s character

[@puckerings]

Indeed. Saying he picks up on the energy from the other side kind of falls apart when it's just him talking at a camera. That's when he says his most vile things, when there's no one there to challenge or correct him.

[@jessicapogson2645]

His evaluation is one only a privileged white man could come to. Ben Shapiro & the rhetoric he spews has a direct impact on the lives of women/trans people/gay people/Palestinians/ethnic minorities etc. but Alex isn’t a part of any of these groups so he simply does not care. Or does not have to