My Favorite "Bad" Weapons [TF2]

[@edcellwarrior]

I haven't played TF2 in nearly a decade, so seeing the Axtinguisher being called a "bad" weapon is just mind blowing

[@lub1z]

Yeah I remember when the axtinguisher did a crit on burning targets, good times

[@ScoutingTacos]

They nerfed it to hell

[@peggyhilversum6894]

@@ScoutingTacos And then buffed it so that it became a much better option that is unfortunately still not as good as the old Axtinguisher.

[@Gator_Queen8188]

@@peggyhilversum6894 like tbf it has a cool idea but honestly I think it needs a lil bit of number tweaks to be ballin

[@mertsoup9113]

@@peggyhilversum6894 yeah it's not bad, but it's definitely not the best which is the only reason people call it bad

[@zelculothesquid8201]

Honestly I think a lot of people confuse “fun weapon” and “good weapon”. There are a lot of weapons that are kinda inarguably less effective overall, but they can still be super fun to play with, because it’s not always about being the most effective. Trying to hipshot with the classic, or chainstab with the Your Eternal Reward, that sort of thing.

[@KingKayro87]

A lot of people think the Loose Cannon is bad because it's a little weird, when it's honestly my favorite Demoman primary. But of course, "it's not good because it's not the Iron Bomber" well fuck your Iron Bomber, and I mean literally fuck it since you're not gonna lose your virginity otherwise if you use this thing religiously.

[@zelculothesquid8201]

@@KingKayro87 Yeah, and it's especially strange since the iron bomber and the loose cannon are actually pretty similar. They both trade range for control and have shorter fuse times, making them useful defensively and allowing more mobility with improved grenade jumps. They also both have bigger projectiles than stock, which plays into their utility against fast or nearby enemies. The iron bomber is better against buildings and easier to use, while the loose cannon is a far more powerful offensive tool against players and rewards you with cool tricks if you lean into its weirdness. The iron bomber is like a hybrid between stock and the loose cannon. Now that I think about it, it actually fills that role visually too.

[@KingKayro87]

@@zelculothesquid8201 Iron Bomber is just a diet Loose Cannon. Less sugar? Yes. Healthier for you? Absolutely not.

[@Breakaway-ic5gj]

Man I wish Loose Cannon was like old loch n' load where it can one shot scunts across the map. But you have to charge it up and only one grenade in the magazine. It would be like Demoman's super shotgun

[@bac0ntoast]

@@KingKayro87 i tried it out a couple days ago cus i knew it was good but really really skill based and i was right, it is a good weapon just needs practice

[@defecito]

the Liberty Launcher is actually pretty fun to use, I've been using the Airborne Armaments set for 2 weeks and I really enjoyed using the Liberty Launcher along with the Reserve Shooter

[@Spookyman22]

MONSTER

[@temmie9430]

Yeah liberty launcher is built for combos like with the reserve shooter due to it moving faster so you can combo better but also allows really good trollder witht the reduced jump damage and extra rocket for escapes. Its not relly ment to be used like stock.

[@Rubiktor012]

@@Spookyman22 why

[@bigbraintime3699]

Low damaging to you and your enemy, and plus it has a rocket speed buff. A really underrated weapon for soldier.

[@arloaltop4974]

Honestly the liberty launcher is my favorite launcher, because I like the faster projectile speed but I suck at hitting directs.

[@vindem242]

3:54 Idk why but seeing the heavy achieving space travel involuntarily Is really funny to me.

[@jellywillreturn]

6:22 Heavies are always the funniest class

[@thodds68]

russian space program

[@bonkers5451]

I swear, I saw that and almost spit my drink out it wasn’t expecting it-

[@WhatIsLove170]

The solution to ubered enemies, just yeet them away.

[@edoardocaccia6226]

That clip is hilarious

[@yesteryears]

in my opinion i would say the overdose would be my pick for medic. people at least know the blutsauger can do some damage and it’s the second most used medic primary, but the overdose can be pretty nutty at times, especially if you have 50-100% uber. the damage penalty is basically not there and being able to run almost as fast as a scout is very helpful, both when defending and attacking

[@ketra1504]

Overdose with quick fix turns you into the most mobile medic who can always run away

[@yesteryears]

@@ketra1504 it’s a real fun play style

[@Pikana]

@ketra1504 Amen to this. Quick-Fix + Overdose are my favorites. They pair nicely with the Solemn Vow as the increased Uber build rate gives the Ubersaw depreciated value.

[@mosshunter4120]

@@yesteryears I think it’s so fun because you never see the respawn timer unless a random crit happens

[@danielleanderson3971]

Same!

[@icetide9411]

I honestly love playing with a lot of these "bad" weapons. Sydney is helpful if the enemy has like 3 heavies, since instead of just trying to hit a million quick-scopes in a row, you can coat them all in Jarate quickly and have your team easily kill them all with the minicrits. Support Sniper as I like to call it, might not be as good as a quick-scope God, but it's a lot of fun to try and find who your team is targeting

[@mrchoochooguy4045]

Oh My Gosh I also think Sydney support snipers would be great 👍🗿

[@Minstrel2009]

Or you just charge up your shot and kill the heavy instantly with any other sniper rifle lmao

[@RPGMaker2003]

@@Minstrel2009 On 2fort for example, you don't really have time to land 3 fully charged headshots in a row tho

[@georgesconyers9769]

​@@Minstrel2009 Going for head shots during the bot plague? Oh hey that is another useful thing. Nobody will accuse a Sydney Sleeper Support Sniper as being an aimbot

[@Breakaway-ic5gj]

@@Minstrel2009 By the time you charge any other rifle up your teammates would have killed that Heavy with Sydney. But it does rely on teammates having braincells

[@MegaGeewee]

Honestly, for Engineer I feel like the stock pistol is the most underrated weapon he has, simply because it's not the wrangler or the short circuit.

[@axiom8073]

it's my choice when using the widowmaker or the frontier justice

[@theant2266]

@@axiom8073 amen. It can definitly save you from time to time or it can just be good at chipping away enemie health, I reccomend this with playstyles like the Battle engie

[@appelofdoom8211]

I’ve never really met anyone that thinks it’s bad though.

[@LordSniggles]

Ever wished you could put up a second mini sentry? Just pull out your pistol and be the sentry.

[@davidhong1934]

@@LordSniggles Or politely trick the Heavy into being a sentry by leaving a trail of sandwiches

[@Mr_Coopy]

Two Spies with the enforcer can almost instantly gun down a wrangled sentry gun, making it by far the fastest way to deal with that sort of menace.

[@electrobuzzgamer2087]

yo dude so say we are doing a gunspy 1v1, what loadout u choosin, any weapons are useable that spy can use

[@Mr_Coopy]

@@electrobuzzgamer2087 Big Kill because the comically large revolver always wins. I will also have the Prinny Machete (comically large knife), the Chicago Overcoat (comically large coat), the License to Maim (comically ordinary badge), and the Bloodhoud (comically large dog hat). Always works, never fails.

[@mongodroid4842]

@@Mr_Coopy least expensive spy loadout

[@n0m4r22]

A wrangled lvl3 sentry?

[@Mr_Coopy]

@@n0m4r22 Yep. The enforcer pierces the wrangler's shield. Two shots at 48 damage because of the disguise bonus plus three more shots at 40 damage equals 216, which is the health of a lvl 3 sentry. With a 0.6 second interval between attacks, that's 1.2 seconds from first shot to last shot for the gun to be taken down, and even if the engineer manages to get a single swing of the wrench in to repair it, the wrench's repair is cut into a third by the wrangler's shield, meaning the other spy's third shot will take it down regardless.

[@tabdeugo]

0:56 it's amazing how the psycological atribute of the gas passer is the only thing consistent with the weapon, he's just coated with gas that at max does 8 damage per sec (when you get hit) and he has a health pack near him but no. Away he goes.

[@badopinionssquid1735]

Ikr Whether it actually does anything or not, tossing it in a flank route is a surefire way to keep it clear for at least a few seconds

[@aSmallGreenDot]

@@badopinionssquid1735 I run straight through it if I need to

[@le_boy3994]

It just got buffed!!!!!!

[@bayoyo5938]

Combining the dead ringer and the spycicle with the enforcer gives you the infamous Dr enforcicle loadout which is basically gunspy nowadays

[@expensivedebt787]

just use stock revolver

[@Galaxy-oy4nj]

@@expensivedebt787 stock doesnt have that sweet firing sound and enforcer looks better, but objectively yes just use stock

[@taureon_]

i absolutely agree on the scottish resistance and blutsauger parts! especially with the blutsauger one, what you said is what made me realise how good it actually is if you know how to aim it

[@frank9966]

It’s also super good for surviving. I love being chased around corners as I shoot blutsauger needles, the chasing enemy will either run into the needles to get to me, allowing me to heal a lot while putting some damage on. Or they wait, putting distance between them and time for me to use medic’s built in regen

[@mcintoshpc]

Bizarrely, I’ve actually managed to get some decent use out of the shortstop shove in mvm It can’t compete with airblast or even the FaN in terms of knockback, but ive saved a few games with it

[@dankmachine]

I’ve had a few moments in MvM where a Scout got to the bomb drop, but I get there just in time to frantically spam the Shortstop shove until someone else can catch up and kill it

[@slysamuel5902]

Oh trust me its way better than the force a nature in mvm because the FaN’s always active knock back screws over your teammates a lot. It makes sticky traps harder to utilise properly, hitting headshots when your opponent is being pushed everywhere all the time is blatantly unhelpful, and for everyone else they won’t be getting the full damage ramp up from the robots walking to them since a FaN scout will keep pushing them away. The shortstop’s knock back being _optional_ is more than enough to make it better for mvm. In addition it has the highest dps when highly upgraded, without using glitched upgrades.

[@dapperfield595]

I'd kiss the Scout who was shoving the Giants over the hatch yesterday.

[@thepoglin8479]

One trick i learned with the eureka effect for setting up a sentry nest somewhere in like 10 seconds is to build all your buildings near spawn, get them up to level 3 and once theire all set up you go out to the field and set up a tele exit somewhere. You then teleport back to spawn, grab your buildings and bring them through the teleporter and using the wrench to go back to spawn instead of walking back. And like that youve got an entire nest set up in less than a minute. Im aware plenty of people know this trick, im telling this to the people who dont know about it.

[@MizuMizu_water]

its a common strat nowadays yet, barely anyone uses it due to laziness of switching a whole weapon

[@Big_Boss_985]

I like using the liberty launcher with the gunboats. Mainly so can do a hyper aggressive play style to get as much damage as possible. It’s surprisingly effective.

[@camtubecamtube]

sounds to me like trolldier with a back-up primary

[@Big_Boss_985]

@@camtubecamtube Ahhh, quite the opposite, I can’t market garden for my life. I normally use the escape plan.

[@БруноБуччелати-н6б]

Yeah! I miss my gunboats, but now i have the tide turner, so its not that bad... well, it is this bad. Flying around map with rocket launcher that have 5 rockets is very cool, and when ot works... it works.

[@emgee2807]

I think it'd be cool to have the enforcer 'invert' resistances to instead do *increased* damage based on the resistance a target has, could make for interesting counter play against wranglers and battalion backup, and vaccinator users.

[@mistadip42]

I can just imagine a vax medic and his pocket running out of spawn and popping the über, only to get one shotted by a spy lol

[@addchannelname2052]

That still kinda just inflates the problem of the gun only being useful when your enemy is using specific items which you can't always count on.

[@kond7664]

​@@addchannelname2052 Against wrangler specifically it's actually really helpful considering a lot of good Engies will use it in most maps, Highlander Spies like to use the Enforcer most on certain Payload maps where the sentry nest is difficult to reach, like in Upward where the usual nest spot can always be blocked from reach by a dispenser on top of the stairway. It really lowers the amount of damage you need to take out a wrangled sentry and makes destroying it (relatively) quickly an actual option (with a coordinated team), granted, sapping it does the same thing but you won't always have that option and it's a safer alternative to destroying it than sapping, it's very specific but it's actually fairly good at its job in trying to counter a broken weapon. It's different from most "weak" weapons where it's better in competitive settings but is always a straight downgrade in casual ones, while other gimmicky weapons can shine in casual, especially things like the Air Strike that can feed off of every random daniel.gonzalez.1947247 you see, the enforcer does nothing without a coordinated team, you may not even see a wrangled sentry and even if you do see one it needs others shooting at it to actually destroy it.

[@Breakaway-ic5gj]

@@addchannelname2052 That's fine. That's the cool part of TF2's unlocks, each can be a life saver in a certain situation

[@drivanradosivic1357]

what if the plus 20% damage when disguised was changed to also apply to those with reasonable debuffs like Bleeding, Afterburn, Mad Milk and Jarate? Gasoline is a maybe. I am not saying make the 20% damage buff be additive so that you deal 40% damage against someone, but more of a "you can gain 20% damage when doing X, but also doing YZW" which is the debuffs I mentioned. Diamondback needs a variant of the Enforcer stat that makes it not use crit shots when disguised, that way it is more fair and it is a loud spy gun.

[@TheFoolishSamurai]

The thing with offensive melees, though, is that you actually have to hit the enemy. *You can not hit the enemy.* If you're going mid-speed or lower, you won't land a hit, Even if you hear the hit sound, nothing will likely happen 9 out of 10 times. With weapons like the whip, I've more often hit enemies *behind* me several feet away than people I'm practically kissing in the front

[@murilo7794]

The newest update theoretically fixed that.

[@peakwoop]

hard agree with the liberty launcher, it's so satisfying and fun to use. i remember using the freaking base jumper along with it and it actually worked out really well for me lmao

[@drivanradosivic1357]

for the Liberty \Launcher, I had the idea that it gets a "when blast jumping get plus 40% more damage" which when stacked with the damage penalty is 25% minus 40% for plus 15% more damage. however, maybe something like the situational damage decreases like with Pyro'ss items is needed. As in, turn the flat 25% damage decrease into a damage decrease when you are not in the air: when not blast jumping, damage is decreased by 25% sort of stat.

[@iminumst7827]

@@drivanradosivic1357 That's lame, just makes it even more of a budget air strike which is supposed to be the one paired with the parachute. Liberty Launcher needs something like 10% firerate speed increase or something.

[@drivanradosivic1357]

@@iminumst7827 the Airstrike gets firerate increase while in the air. I think you meant something like base firerate increase stat, yes?

[@themaddoctor1741]

The Overdose is slept on sometimes. It’s amazing with the quickfix. I’d say it’s better than the crossbow on it

[@Pyrax99]

Technically the overdose is best for the Kritzkrieg, has the fastest uber charge if you still have the integrity to not use the vacc

[@khadeejahafsyah8827]

its better paired with vacc

[@karisasani7006]

Yeah he should've mentioned it as a honorable mention

[@Lunar_Atronach]

Plus any experience death matching with the nail gun in quake carries over to the overdose

[@hughmann2285]

You DarE InsUlTe tHe CrOosbo!!!!!!!111!!!1!11!!!!11111

[@pandemonium2536]

One thing I've learned when it comes to "Bad" weapons is that to the tf2 tryhards who decide the meta "Bad" just means "Has to be used differently than stock". Honestly most bad weapons excel in their own niche when used in a way to play to their strengths. The red tape is a great example of this, it's considered worthless in every way. But in situations where the enemy engineer is well defended by their team and you won't be able to kill their nest the Red tape is straight upgrade as if you run in and sap everything even if you die chances are that something will be downgraded, and fighting a level 2 sentry which they have to expend 200 metal to upgrade will always be better than fighting a level 3 that needs like 40 metal to repair.

[@regalblade8171]

Quick-fix and Scottish Resistance are also a good example of your point

[@Anonymous-cn9ow]

Well the best use of the Red Tape is against highly aggressive engineers who will spend a lot of time away from his sentry gun (mini sentries especially)

[@benander6017]

That's just not true though. The red tape is SO slow at even leveling down once, and if the engineer is actually well defended then he should have a massive stockpile of metal to insta-upgrade his sentry again. "Bad" tends to mean not good in this game, so calling the red tape bad because it has no use case where it is more effective is justified.

[@pandemonium2536]

@@benander6017 The level down isn't nearly as slow as people act, and I reiterate. 200 metal to level up is objectively more than 40-80 to repair. Bad or not in that situation, it's better than stock. Especially since for every additional building leveled down that's another 200 metal and a time investment. Also during that time the sentries dps and all buildings health are both lowered If your team pushes during the time it's leveled down they have an objective better chance. Also as a previous reply said, it's amazing against aggressive engies that leave their gun unattended like mini sentry engies or cheeky spot sentries as it taking so long renders them unable to build a new sentry for the entire duration unless they wanna run to spawn, swap class and swap back, and sacrifice all their other buildings.

[@Breakaway-ic5gj]

@@pandemonium2536 Level 2 sentry technically has the same DPS as level 3 if you don't count rockets. Rockets are not bad but are not that good either

[@kibbies]

Personally for heavy, I’d say people sleep on the Heater. Although the ammo drain is insane on that thing, in pubs it can work really well on payload carts where you don’t need to worry about ammo, making it almost better than stock, on capture points the ring of fire is helpful because people are gonna get scared to walk into the point because of its on fire damage bonus.

[@VagueCastle649]

I mean, it doesn't make much of a difference on payload since pushing the cart as heavy is already very strong. I feel like the brass beast is a better capture point defender. The heater does have a niche in countering vacc medics though.

[@TheKoriKasai]

This was fun. I haven't given any of these a chance as I've been hearing how many other weapons are better and been using them. Or trying too

[@Kurokami112]

Gosh, that heavy at 6:25 just realizes he's screwed and just gives up

[@quiteabizarreone6441]

Never got why people say the wrap assassin is a bad melee for scout, i'd say it's his 2 or 3rd best

[@appelofdoom8211]

Yeah I never got the hate for the wrap assassin. It basically just puts the flying gullotine in your melee slot and it’s not like scout actually gets much use out of hitting people with his melee unless you’re memeing so the weapon has no downsides 9 times out of 10.

[@coobk]

wrap assassin is actually meta in highlander

[@quiteabizarreone6441]

@@muddashucka9743 Yeah that 1st one I get but even then it only happened on a few maps and in regards to the 2nd one I already said it's only his 2nd or 3rd best melee neither of these points I think can define it as a 'bad weapon'

[@GrtGuy]

I think due to the fact that the skill needed to hit is way higher than what the payoff is. It's only redeeming quality is the range of it.

[@browniegp9762]

TLDR: shortstop good support weapon, increase scout longevity and sustained dps after 5 seconds with longer effective range. worse at dealing with anything but un-buffed light classes. would probs work on flank scout, would need to change play style a bit but could have good results, would also allow combo and soldiers to have more heals. shortstop is also really good at 2 shooting light classes. the timing would need to be practised but it would be worth a try. shortstop also could be used as a more passive version of scout in HL focusing more on killing weak players, light classes and dying less. i think shortstop can work in 6s, it has almost double the firing speed of stock and only lose 33 damage for a poink blank meatshot. shortstop can do 288 damage per clip where stock can do 630 but shortstop can dump its clip in 1.08 seconds, stock takes 3.125 seconds. short stop has a dps of 267 if fully loaded, stock has 202 dps if fully loaded. shortstop takes 1.52s to reload a full clip scattergun takes 3.2. shortstop has a sustained dps of 111 stock has a sustained dps of 100. shortstop has worse burst damage and takes longer to kill medics, soldiers, pyros, demos, heavies from full. scattergun kills soldiers, pyros, demos and medics in .625 seconds if no buff, shortstop takes .72 seconds to kill medics, demos, pyros, soldiers with no buff. shortstop takes 2.6 seconds to kill a full hp heavy whereas stock takes 1.25, with buffs shortstop struggles even harder bringing medics into the 4 shot range, pyros and demos are also in the 4 shot range but you have to hit every meatshot at max ramp up at max speed to out damage the medi gun 24hp/s (260 hp/w buff + 1.08 sec it takes to dump clip gives 26hp between shots, or effective health of 286 2 less than max damage of shortstop). light classes go from being a 2 shot to a 3 shot on shortstop, scattergun still 2 shots all light classes and 3 shots demos, pyros, meds, soldiers become a 4 shot. as in 6s the demo and combo scout have full buff a lot of the time it makes a big difference. the shortstop shines in killing light classes .36 seconds ttk, if a fight lasts longer than 5 seconds shortstop has better damage or the fight is shorter than .625 seconds then short has better damage, the range in-between the scatter gun is better. the scatter gun can shoot 8 times in 5 seconds dealing 840 potential damage, shortstop can fire 8 times in 5 seconds dealing 576 damage after the 5 second mark shortstop comes out ahead. shortstop is better in stalemates and for longevity with its tighter spread it would result in a more supportive scout thats bad at burst damage within the 5 second mark, shortstop would be good for clean up as the fast firing speed and the longevity making a large impact, would be better on a flank scout because of this as combo has the health from medic giving longevity and combos usually fight each other making the ttk of the shortstop worse. shortstop also doesnt have as much of a problem with ammo management as clip is reloaded all at once.

[@0ceanicify]

I love the Piss-Sniper, there's nothing that makes Snipers rage more than being bodyshotted repeatedly.

[@mollyOS420]

I guess you could say it pisses them off!

[@0ceanicify]

@@mollyOS420 It's just taking the pee

[@Rammkommando]

as my buddy said its the biggest disrespect you could do to a sniper

[@EightThreeEight]

I can't headshot to save my life, so the Sydney Sleeper is like a gift from God for me.

[@AdrienHebert12]

I’ve used the classic as a joke for so long that it’s hard to switch back to the normal sniper rifles.

[@gagec6390]

The classic is so fucking good in its niche though. Making scouts and spies terrified to approach you because you can just unscope and instagib them is so much fun

[@AdrienHebert12]

@@gagec6390 true, I love using it.

[@akazinnia]

The Sydney Sleeper is just so underrated if you want to play a bigger support role as sniper. + The fact that killing someone with a weapon I named “The piss missile” is rather amusing.

[@cad1049]

Do you mind if I steal this name idea ? It's unironically hilarious

[@akazinnia]

@@cad1049 Go ahead mate. And don’t forget to give it the description “Smells line pissmiss mornin”

[@cad1049]

@@akazinnia Will do ! Also, on an unrelated note, I'm looking for mates to play the game with, would you be interested ?

[@rockowlgamer631]

"I find heavy boring" Heavy mains: And I took that personally For real though, yeah he can be boring at times but it just feels so good to mow down babies with my big gun

[@Rammkommando]

what makes heavy fun isnt the movement mechanics its all the folks who claim movement is king and can't take a hint bum rushing a heavy is a stupid idea getting mowed down.

[@rockowlgamer631]

@@Rammkommando Especially using Huo Long Heater against cocky scouts and annoying demoknights.

[@Nikolai0169]

3:40 something to note as well is that your stickies havent "missed" until you detonate them, and since the scottish resistance allows you to only blow up currently important bombs without touching others you have a higher chance of "hitting" your stickies

[@expanddong3205]

Ok so the Baby Faces Blaster is shit but it’s so much fun to have the max boost for like 3 seconds before an engineer hits me with one pistol bullet from across the map

[@eclecticspaghetti]

I think the shortstop would be virtually perfect if they replaced the shove with making the reload just a *tiny* bit faster. Everything about the weapon feels great except the reload, it feels oddly sluggish to me.

[@dwenzybenzy]

A long time ago, the reload speed of the Shortstop was the same as the pistol. They probably changed it because it was too spammy. Imo it would be interesting if they replaced the shove with, let's say, a quick melee attack, where you use the bottom of the gun to whack people.

[@mariustan9275]

Or give back the increased healing bonus.

[@shaddysehly5040]

the reason the shove is so weak is because scout is the guy doing it, if heavy shoved someone they would be sent across the map, but scout's noodle arms? yeah no

[@RedstoneFox1595]

4:15 to me the Scottish resistance is eye and ear candy. I love the way it moves with the recoil and the way the stickies fly in just the right rate of fire it’s just *chef’s kiss* perfect

[@krakenpots5693]

As a medic main, I love the blutsauger, especially as I mainly play with a clan that has no idea how to protect their medic, so I often have to fend for myself!

[@CoralCopperHead]

No, my friend, the Axtinguisher is not undervalued, we old-school Pyro mains are just still in mourning over the loss of our original, most beloved Puff'N'Sting tool.

[@Anonymous-cn9ow]

There is a lot of hate for the Wrap Assassin, which seems quite undeserved. It's a fine weapon and in its current state, it's a better Sandman

[@lub1z]

Yeah I totally agree, you pair it with the guillotine and it's hella fun to play

[@AbefromanGW]

The wrap assassin is only hated by ppl that don't know what they're talking about, it's legit good enough that it's banned in sixes

[@HBender]

For the axtinguisher bit in class wars, I was in the match, idk if I appear in that clip but I saw great blue in that exact match

[@killdozer3138]

2:06 engi went flyin

[@shadowblyat2323]

Enforcer is the best weapon for razorback snipers. It takes two shot to kill a sniper if your first bullet lands while you are disguised. Its fast enough for a sniper to response other revolvers takes 3 shots

[@GrtGuy]

The ambassador can aswell lol

[@purplehaze2358]

I didn't even know people dissed on the axtinguisher. I knew people thought it was worse in most situations than the powerjack, but otherwise thought it was universally agreed on as a pretty solid weapon.

[@huzzabuzatrolol]

shortstop has always been my fav/default gun for scout, with fan close behind

[@nopenope1948]

I think the axtinguisher is a pretty good weapon, it’s just that every pyro melee is bad compared to the powerjack. In my opinion the best bad weapon for pyro is the man melter. If the other team has a competent pyro you can basically become a fire sniper.

[@gregoriuskarol9604]

Or you know, that one guy that spams scorch shot

[@GrtGuy]

The third degree has its uses though

[@Bnvnu]

the real problem is rather about whether or not a weapon is "bad", the factors that decide if a weapon is considered viable is if it stand out compared to his brother, and if the downside don't completely crush the upsides , the enforcer, like you said, is not bad, the -20% doesn't make it unusable in the slightest, but that still make it an objectively inferior version if there's no armor to pierce, or if you don't re-desguise after every shot (which increases even more the "fire rate" penalty) and if it's objectively inferior, then there's no point to use it outside of challenging yourself. i would personally love if the gun would change the way your disguise worked, by changing the "when doing anything, remove disguise" to a " "after losing 50% health (so 62 with stock knife), take it off" this would make it a great option for the more gun reliant spy, and possibly open a new way to play him also, the competitive opinion is not revelant under any circumstance, with the sydney sleeper, the B.A.S.E jumper, the BONK! Atomic punch and the freaking gas passer, all being banned in 6v6 because of their "strengh" compared to other options, so i tend to ignore them when talking balance or how to make a weapon interesting

[@hi-i-am-atan]

one of them completely throws off the risk vs reward balance of an already very polarizing weapon type, one of them gives on-demand invincibility, and one of them can literally be _thrown through walls_ i'm not sure why you're so desperate to be a shining example of the dunning-kruger effect, but here we are i guess

[@Bnvnu]

@@hi-i-am-atan you can't attack (except with taunt but that's not revelant) while invincible, you can still get knock-backed by any projectile, so pyros , turret and any explosive will still completely negate you even in the period they're not supposed to, on top of an excruxiating slowdown on the class that relies on speed the most, with no other secondaries to back you up, all damage with the shotgun. this is awful if you use it for the intended purpose, and the advantages it gives relies a 100% on the enemy team making mistakes, and in a comp match, that's not going to happen, at all. as for the "risk vs reward", giving up 150 quick headshots is a big deal, it changes the class role of sniper from complete area denial, to support, which is far more healthy to me, the regular sniper has too much potential when played at his best, negating his supposed close range weakness, with a burst 150 in 0.2 seconds, the sidney sleeper is not a bad weapon, but if anything, the regular sniper rifle should be banned if it's a question of strengh. as for the gas passer... oh no, the pyro can shoot trough the spawning doors with all the flamethrowers! guess we'll have to ban pyro entirely. A bug shouldn't justify in the slightest a ban, otherwise every single mechanic composing tf2 would be banned too then, the developer are not touching this ball of spaghetti code. also it sucks a lot, no one in their right mind would ever use this

[@hi-i-am-atan]

@@Bnvnu it takes less than 3 seconds to capture last on badlands with x2 capture speed drident is banned, blue-eyes white dragon is not. you will find absolutely nobody that thinks this is an incorrect decision admitting that any attempt you make at comprehending basic cause and effect causes your brain to unravel into pasta will earn no sympathy from me, esp. when it's ignorance all for the sake of meme that's kept alive solely to irritate programmers yes, i realize that you are probably much too neurotypical to understand 99% of this. no, i will not accommodate for your shitty lateral thinking skills. spending time actually developing those is almost certainly a far better use of your time than whatever masturbatory remark your hateboner for stuff you do not understand is prepared to pump out

[@VagueCastle649]

The axe, kgb, and ee aren't considered bad weapons (you could make an argument for the axetinguisher, but absolutely not the other two).

[@GreyTide512]

3:55 Bro whoever got that uber got flung across all creation

[@Trainlover1995]

Regarding the Sydney Sleeper, you forgot to mention that a fully-charged headshot still minicrits and does 203 damage, meaning it can still drop Soldiers, Pyros, Demos, and overhealed light classes. And it can do traditional headshots when crit-boosted.

[@GrtGuy]

If it was crit boosted you wouldn't need to headshot

[@Tar_Pick_Piano]

I like the Sydney sleeper quicker full charge shots and it can help your team kill heavy’s

[@alex_zetsu]

4:28 most heavies (including me) use a lunchbox item. This means if oyu _don't_ use the Tomislav, the KBG is really fun when it works, but it usually doesn't since a lot of the crit time is spent on the spin up.

[@VagueCastle649]

I use the family business with the kgb.

[@alex_zetsu]

@@VagueCastle649 Well yeah, but if you used the sandvich, you wouldn't have much use for the KB over the fists of steel would you?

[@FenexDragonis]

You missed the most powerful secret of the eureka effect. Swap to it, drop your entrance, swap off.. your teleporter keeps the reduced upgrade cost... this can be a Godsend when you don't have a lot of time to set up

[@mishagaming1075]

The entrance can easily be destroyed by most spawnkillers, and spies can also just sap the entrance. So it can be pretty boring to keep doing that.

[@beanz6970]

On the topic of the Enforcer, I think it falls into the category of weapons that are very similar to stock. This category has two kind of weapons: Similar to stock but slightly better (ex. Iron Bomber, Southern Hospitality) and similar to stock but slightly worse (ex. Enforcer, Liberty Launcher kinda). These weapons tend to be very difficult to balance as they become straight upgrades or downgrades rather than being better in certain situations rather than generally alright in most situations like Stock. Really it would be better to try and make most of the unlocks be more unique and situational to avoid this phenomena but that can also create some very bad weapons as the situations they're designed for might just never come up in general play.

[@puffyhowler615]

I think I would argue with your medic pick. In my opinion the most slept on medic weapon is the overdose. It only has a minor downside of a damage penalty, but because it fires so many syringes, the penalty only increases the time to kill by about 1 or 2 seconds. The upside of it, however, is that the on-demand speed bonus is very helpful for *avoiding* those kinds of fights which get you killed by letting you always have good positioning. Additionally, its speed bonus directly scales with how much you need that bonus, as the more Uber you have, the less you want to die. You really notice the power of it when you are just, not in position. Maybe your whole team suddenly died to a kritzkrieg soldier, and you are the next squishy target. Maybe I just can't hit crossbows but I really feel slow and like my healing efficiency is reduced when I play without it.

[@harrogeorge7878]

Only 1 I disagree with, the enforcer is just a worse version of either the diamondback or ambassador because of two shorting light classes requiring point blank for enforcer but medium to long range for the other two. I agree with the 8 other picks you chose though, a 1 out of 9 disagreement rate isn’t bad, and it’s mostly just because two other guns do the same job but better. (The gun itself isn’t bad, there are just way better options.)

[@kond7664]

It's definitely the worst but it does have exactly one not too uncommon situation where it's legitimately good in that it's one of the only ways to burst down a wrangled sentry gun if you add a few other teammates shooting at it you'll deal effectively twice as much dps as a rocket launcher would against the shield and the Engie can't fix it up effectively cause of the repair downside, of course, Spy also has one of the other few options against wrangled sentries always on him in his sapper and sapping's usually better, but sometimes it's just safer to shoot it or the nest itself is inaccessible or too well protected, if you've ever played Borneo offense and had an enemy Engie with a wrangled sentry on top of a roof destroying every push the enforcer + about two explosive classes is fairly decent at handling that. I think the downside's way worse than it seems when you're just using it outside of this one situation though, I like using the amby a lot because it's fun and the slower firing speed is definitely the worst of its downsides, the Enforcer has the same slow firing speed and you'll for sure notice a bunch of kills you would have gotten with the default revolver, 20% doesn't seem like much but the default revolver's firing speed is so smooth and reliable in comparison. Oh and you can kill a dead ringer kunai spy with it once every 50 games so that's pretty funny.

[@GrtGuy]

He literally called it the worst revolver... I don't see what there is to disagree on

[@MotherBurrito]

Hu Long Heater, it's effectiveness is all about how ok you are with living and dying by the objective, and snipers are still a huge issue, but it is so fun to turn around a corner, rev up, and set a small clump of people on fire. Plus if you have a pyro on your team, it is very fun to focus on the people they set on fire. I imagine it is pretty scary for the enemy to suddenly be taking a fuck ton of damage from a heavy focusing you down across the battlements with slightly above brass beast damage.

[@VagueCastle649]

Or scorch shot spammer.

[@jarihoogendoorn5823]

I do quite enjoy the babyface

[@GreyTide512]

Yeah, if you can dodge weapons enough and aim well, you can do VERY well with it.

[@neutralnarwhal8184]

6:00 The fact that, as a Medic, I could be full health, healing my team, almost full uber, and then get my day ruined because a Sniper decides to go for the bodyshot... I could not tell you the number of times I was doing everything right: spy checking, rarely leaving cover, using my Heavy as a meatshield, only to lose everything to a guy on the other side of the map who tapped mouse1 on my torso... I live in fear.

[@TrainEnjoyer]

The “bad” weapons I use is; liberty launcher, Scottish resistance, blutsauger, dead ringer, your eternal reward, erukia effect, shahanasha & the boxing gloves of killing.

[@shaddysehly5040]

dead ringer isnt so much bad just hated because of poor design and how people only use it to crutch when they have bad positioning, hence giving it a bad reputation

[@GrtGuy]

Scottish resistance isn't bad by any means

[@minireg8802]

When i used to play TF2, back in the day, before fortnite and when OverWatch was a thing, i used to play the weapons no one used 1.) Scout: shortstop, it's fast , reload fast and has good range 2.) Soldier: Liberty, it's fast so it's easier to hit someone, and makes you able to rocket jump safer, sadly the reload time was considerable 3.) Pyro: flare gun, easy way to burn someone, with a lot of ammo, a good long range option for easy damage 4.) Demoman: Scottish resistance pretty much for the same reasons you mentioned 5.)Heavy: Natascha, if you land at least 1 bullet the enemy it's pretty much done, even it was useful for me to take down cheaters on some matches, pretty funny, 6.)Engineer: Jag, i didn't like the idea of protecting sentries or something, it was hard for me, so i liked to spamm more sentries, and jag was pretty good doing that 7.) Medic: Quick fix, quick fix recharges the uber pretty fast, a lot faster i mean, overhealing is quite overrated because it's losed over time quickly, the uber was not perfect, but if your mate is a decent player you won't have any issue, except for headshots or backstabs, but you can take some sentries nest and teams 8.)Sniper: the laser that pierces, i don't remember the name but was fun to sometimes kill two enemies, as a sniper your position will be tracked easy most of times, so the negative wasn't that big for me 9.) Spy: the clock that wears off with movement, you can be invisible infinite time if you are quiet in a place, so yeah, good old times, when people was hyped for jungle inferno, probably the last tf2 update

[@shaddysehly5040]

the jag isnt bad its just that after upgrading everything its better to switch to a different wrench

[@maxx3218]

People consider these weapons bad because they don't act like stock

[@kasiahmura2816]

bloods- uhh idk how to spell it, the medic vampire gun goes well with the amputator as you can negate it's main downside

[@MishaTakesLs]

amputator's upside only works when you have it active, and the thing has to rump up first

[@rarebruh]

The Axtinguisher is great against those unkillable eyelander + charge n targe Demoknights

[@videakias3000]

the killing gloves or boxing are meant to be used when either there are many spies on the enemy team or the enemy spies often come for you. spies die in 2 punches meaning that the lower firing speed barely comes into play. unfortunately the k.g.b still aren't great since there are situations where your crits get wasted if there is nobody around to shoot at.

[@tagomago2162]

God, I haven't played TF2 in such a long time I'm still used to the Degreaser/Flaregun/Axtinguisher combo being essentially the be-all and end-all for Pyro. It was such an overwhelmingly powerful loadout running anything else was literally a downgrade. Wild to think in the past it was routine to puff a heavy and two-shot him with the axtinguisher and it was that way for years.

[@DakkaScrappa]

Not only that Sydney sleeper can also be used if you want a secondary but still use the Bushwacka.

[@someonenamedtailsdoll7805]

The Brass Beast is my favorite bad weapon for Heavy. I know it's bad, but it's just fun to play around with. And besides, there's a lot worse options that everyone forgets about, Like the huo-long heater!

[@calcutt4]

With the brass beast I like to just sit in a corner and become a spy proof sentry

[@Ade-ow5hb]

The eureka effect lets you set up a level 3 sentry and dispenser faster that the jag if you don't have 2 large ammo packs at your disposal

[@recurvestickerdragon]

Weird question: What's the best weapon in each slot for a class to learn on? Like, if you could decide which ones were stock when a newbie fresh installs, which ones do you think would be the healthiest lessons in how to play?

[@davidhong1934]

*Engineer:* Widowmaker (penalizes missed shots) *Scout:* Candy Cane (penalizes inability to dodge rockets) *Spy:* Spycicle (penalizes Spies who can't fool Pyros and/or aim a revolver) *Medic:* Quick-Fix (no penalty, just one free heal after messing up)

[@Shipx7]

I love the Sydney Sleeper. I was on a trading map and someone got so tilted that I kept killing him with it. Legit 5 minute rambling speech about how bad I was because I was killing him. It was the high point of my TF2 time.

[@strawberrana]

I love the Beggar's Bazooka but for some reason I always hear people calling it trash or garbage

[@casiooooooo]

They clearly don't watch bindpyro

[@monmagog]

I love the Sydney Sleeper for 2 reasons 1: I am bad at sniper 2: funni pee gun

[@sircatangry5864]

My favourite weapon is shortstop. Its really powerful because its middle from scattergun with his dmg and magazine to soda popper with his reloading speed and firing speed. And i can punch people to death what is most important

[@mr.nobody7232]

One of my favorite “bad weapon” is honesty the classic

[@de83245]

agree with most of these but the liberty launcher's damage penalty is just unforgiveable, barely does more damage than the stock shovel at the same range

[@GrtGuy]

It's meant for longer ranges

[@kritz2605]

There was this one single Scout who completely changed my thoughts on Bonk from a meh weapon to a pocket Uber push. I was a power-class (forgot which one) and I was trying to take out a sentry nest. He runs up to me and pulls out his Bonk before using a ‘Sentry Ahead’ line. I thought there’s no way, but he pops Bonk and we take out the whole nest, and since then I’ve thought pretty highly on Bonk when it’s in the right hands

[@HellMan0616]

Ah yes, the schwicky schwag!

[@joao2479]

As a medic main I hate that the crossbow just makes every other weapon a bad choice and it should be nerfed, I love the blutsauger and I hate that one of the most boring medic weapons is the meta weapon by a landslide.

[@MishaTakesLs]

nononono

[@xenslavescombinecoffe6456]

What does "heavy is Boring" mean? I dont understand

[@GrtGuy]

When you are tryharding as heavy it's boring compared to every other class

[@JxtoGames]

For scout, I think its kinda funny that hes considered close range, when honestly, the biggest difference in damage for him vs other classes would be at the mid range, assuming both parties are decent. Projectiles are easier to dodge and harder to aim the further away you are, and hitscan weapons are basically guaranteed hits if u can aim half decently well. Also, for the scottish resistance, technically, its raw damage output is higher than stock. It shoots faster and reloads at the same speed, so the pure dps it could output is significantly higher. Moreover, you can selectively detonate which means if you have 10 stickies covering an area, you might only need to det half of them. If youre wrong, just move your mouse over a few more and det a few more. Its also better than you would think in a straight up engagement. Put a few down (which doesnt take much since it shoots fast) and the enemy gets a lot less choices on where to move. You can use it to disengage, to deny area, or if you have time, to carpet an area. Of course for self defense your pipes are your main go to, but for damage output if you dont need absolute on demand damage, the scottish resistance is probably the better choice. A last tip for anyone who actually read my whole comment, this weapon is really funny against reved up heavies. The faster firing speed makes it do actually decent damage and their slow walk + time it takes to unrev allows you to actually use it against them. Its surprisingly effective. Doubly so if hes not looking/shooting at you.

[@kerzid]

There are no bad weapons only bad taste 😌

[@TheTrueMuffinGhost]

Caber?

[@GrtGuy]

Eviction notice. Sure a fast punching heavy is funny but it's objectively worse than gru.

[@TheTrueMuffinGhost]

@@kerzid pompson

[@TheTrueMuffinGhost]

@@kerzid Bison

[@thatlittlemonstrosity]

I use bad weapons for meme. Tf2 is not a competitive games so have a disability in it feels like a funny thing rather than a frustrating situation. I am so used to them that i think i played more with bad weapons than good

[@vidiottheowl2825]

imagine if the liberty launcher had the resistance piercing effect the enforcer had, making it a hard counter to the wrangler, buff banner, and vaccinator?

[@wilsonweiseng6485]

stupid trick i learned from a soundsmith meatlof video: at the 2fort sewers, put stickies at the ceiling directly in the gap on the health spawn and pretend to be a drunk friendly demoman, it works everytime unless the enemy is a tryhard

[@GrtGuy]

Thats like the most evil strategy, if they kill you they are a tryhard and if they don't they are stupid... Mean strategy

[@wilsonweiseng6485]

@Hithere-uz6wd or they can just look up, it's that easy. Look up

[@shiverse9868]

Something slept on regarding the shortstop is that, despite its lower clip size, it has a very fast reload (reloading all 4 bullets in one go), meaning it can do great at mid range and with good positioning

[@azericthetraveller6355]

I’ve noticed people saying the Brass Beast is bad(or people used to say that) and I could not agree. It’s decently close to stock in balancing overall, but it weighs heavily toward defense, unless you’re playing payload at which point it’s a powerhouse of mythological proportions.

[@Adamthecoolguy123]

Some vac medic accused me of hacking because of the enforcers pierceing ability one time.

[@lunarhexagon8108]

People say huo long heater sucks.. it is my favourite minigun, especially if I can drop on pile of enemies With scotish resistence I agree, that is good one, at times you can defend three or four separated areas with it, which works grear on 2fort, and it has best weapon taunt of all weapons, if we exclude usefullness of killing taunts and amputator healing effect Amputator is also good weapon I dont see people use much

[@chieftf2wastaken]

For Heavy, I would honestly have to pick the Huo Long Heater. It is the minigun that can provide the maximum damage output in the game even with the damage penalty. People also sleep on the fire circle effect, it is better than you think.

[@sigmundfreud7903]

The classic is the quintessential “I have had tunnel vision when I scope” or “I’m terrified of spies.” for me.

[@gigaswardblade7261]

since when did people think the eureka effect was bad? i ALWAYS see people using it to do the teleporter thing

[@waterdragon2.08]

i must be an old TF2 player because a lot of these weapons are actually my hands down favorite to use. though enforcer used to be such a better weapon because it had 20% damage across the board no matter what, it was seen as a "noob" revolver because it could take down even a heavy with his back turned towards you.

[@andreasottohansen7338]

The Sydney Sleeper and the Classic both suit me very well on sniper for one reason, and one reason only. My brain DEMANDS i fully charge before i commit to shooting.

[@Randomyoutuber-4831]

Finally some love for the shortstop! You have more evasive options at mid range than point blank and being able to instantly reload four shots instead of two like other scatterguns can be crazy useful.

[@bigdapramirez6157]

Quickie for offensive pushes and for dealing with targets at range, stock for overall versatility and especially destroying buildings quickly, and the Scottish resistance for holding down multiple entrances/areas, as it excels for defense. Lastly, the sticky jumper for meme loadouts or mobility

[@Kernwadi]

Ad mortem sic vita fluit, velut ad mare flumen. Vivere nam res est dulcis, amara mori. Restituunt furtum fures, vi rapta, latrones. Omnia mors aufert, restituitque nihil. Latus ad occasum, unquam rediturus ad ortum. Vivo hodie, moriar cras, here natus eram.

[@Kernwadi]

God bless.

[@Zenith-TheMachine]

1:07 the shortstop shove may be borderline useless but it’s very funny, and can be better when there’s friendly sentries around or a bottomless pit/high cliff as seen on high/highertower, some of the Halloween maps, skirmish, and more. If I left out your favorite map with an insta-kill pit, put it in my replies

[@frozenover_exe]

For Medic I’d have to go with the Solemn Vow. A lot of people say it’s dependent on how well you communicate with your team but I’ve found I can solo a surprising amount of low health targets that took me for defenceless a second ago. If you’re like me and barely get any use out of the Übersaw try taking this weapon for a spin, you’ll get a surprising amount of use out of it

[@bialex8083]

I'm still waiting for someone to actually defend the Sharpened Volcano Fragment, but I'm prettu sure no one can

[@juansebastianpulidovelasco2195]

He already told that he couldn't think in a positive thing about that weapon aside of "it's not really bad on medieval mode"

[@begoneheretic9760]

For me, my favourite medic loadout is The Blutsauger, The Quick-Fix, and The Solemn Vow. It allows me to play as a medic that’s almost just as effective at healing as a crossbow medic, while being able to defend himself. The blutsauger (or syringe gun) has a max dps of 120 at close range, which makes it great against flanking scouts if you can aim. The quick fix is great at keeping your team alive without the help of the crossbow or amputator, and it can serve as a great battle tool by switching between it and your weapons to greatly heal yourself mid fight. And the solemn vow is just a good ass tool to let you know if you should pick a fight, or run back to your team. If the situation calls for it, I will switch to a different loadout, but it’s nice not dreading going around a corner when your pocket abandons you.

[@no-legjohnny3691]

Here's my two cents on the class weapons, including all applicable weapon slots: Scout: Shortstop is definitely underrated in it's use case. It's like people can't comprehend that there is a scout primary where meatshots aren't the focus. I've actually won a number of scout duals because I'm keeping my distance and flopping all over the place with double jumps to avoid getting hit while landing consistent hits with the Shortstop. Soldier: Also the Liberty Launcher, and for all the reasons you listed basically. Specifically, the extra projectile speed makes hitting longer distance shots much easier, and it totally screws with Pyro's ability to reflect your rockets. The LL and the Direct hit are probably my best soldier primaries. Have like 1 hour playtime on Pyro so gonna skip that. Demoman: I can definitely concur with the Scottish Resistance since it's one of the only sticky launchers to work in a defensive capacity for me. But I'd also say that the Quickiebomb launcher is often left to collect dust, despite being a very good option at extending Demoman's overall range, much like the Shortstop and Liberty Launcher. Heavy: The "Brass Bitch" often gets a lot of flak for how slow it is to rev up and the relatively ineffective damage resistance below half health. But it's probably one of my favorites, simply because if you know there's gonna be an enemy, the downsides aren't a huge issue. It will ALWAYS win heavy duals if you fire first, even if the other heavy has a medic and you don't. If you get caught with your pants down, you're kinda screwed yes, but with a bit of situational awareness it becomes an absolute powerhouse. Engineer: I can't think of an Engineer specific weapon, so I think I'll use him as a chance to discuss the Panic Attack. It may seem like a general downgrade compared to stock due to gradually decreasing accuracy, but where it really shines is in the "get out of my face" situations. The damage penalty is MORE than offset by the pellet increase, so getting a close-in meatshot will net you a nice 85 to 90 damage per-shot, and I also think the spread is reset by reloading so waiting a sec to put a single shell in after a few shots should reset the spread. Medic: Overdose. As someone who most often defaults to the Quick Fix, I usually focus more on keeping the team alive and tending to the wounded than for übers specifically, so the extra mobility it grants is good for slipping away or reaching your team faster (I'll admit, I can't aim CC bolts to save my life). Sniper: Definitely also the Sydney Sleeper. At the end of the day, it's a support sniper. You use it to assist your team instead of trying to work on your own. That and I find it to be one of the funniest weapons that sniper can use aside from the Huntsman. Spy: Personally, I'd say the stock revolver actually. You get spies who'll use the L'Etranger for the extra cloak, the ambassador for headshot damage, or the Diamondback if they're cowards. They treat stock with absolute indignation, when honestly I get more success playing gunspy with the stock revolver than I do trying to be sneaky and fooling people.

[@TerryJives]

I really enjoy these borderline filler videos almost exclusively because of how passive aggressive you are about things, they're consistently some of the funniest videos I've ever seen.

[@denaytan7746]

Another thing about the Sydney Sleeper is that it's the best rifle for rusty or new and inexperienced snipers. The faster charge rate allows for more shots to be attempted, or in other words, more practice aiming. Not to mention of course how the jarate effect is powerful when you have team members who know how to capitalize on it, and it's applied even if you miss the head. Even if you can't hit heads, you're still contributing a fair bit. I always go for the sleeper when my sniping skills are rusty.

[@RidiculousTies]

something I find interesting is that most of these 'bad' weapons are some of my favorites for the class (axtinguisher and sydney sleeper specifically). I find them just a ton of fun to use and goof around with