My Mormon Shelf collapsed

[@pneuma_23-rb4dx]

The hardest part for me was the book of mormon. I felt something when I prayed about it and couldn't fathom Joseph Smith being capable of making it up. I shelved a ton of things and did mental gymnastics.The marring young girls behind Emmas back should be evidence alone, but gosh I wanted for it to be true so bad.

[@LifeAfterBelief]

I was exactly the same. The Book of Mormon was a hard one to let go of.

[@LifeAfterBelief]

@@user-ei2iw7kb7h sorry. I lost trust in what the church calls the spirit long ago. They commandeer natural human feelings and call it a member of the godhead clearly telling me something. It’s simply a truth finding foundation of sand.

[@tonelove666]

Feelings are feelings. Why hasnt the spirit told your prophets when people they call are seggually assaulting children? Why does the “spirit” tell everyone else in different countries that their church is the only true church? Emotions can be manipulated pretty easily. Thats all it is.

[@pneuma_23-rb4dx]

@@user-ei2iw7kb7h there's absolutely no way the BOM is a historical record. I will give credit that it's a great way to invoke elevation emotion by confirmation bias.

[@sjenson6694]

But if you research he had 8 years and a lot of the concepts in the book were widely believed ideas at the time.. and the book also has 4000 edits that have happened since.. plus like this says the content is ridiculous and has completely been discredited by research.

[@LifeAfterBelief]

Well said. The analogy of the elephant resonates. It took me a little longer than you, but it’s interesting to see how these little moments happened throughout our lives, where our inner self was trying to escape. This nagging voice that was offended by these things, but we squashed our inner moral sense. For me, it took the LDS Discussion series to put it all together. For the lightbulb to turn on.

[@boysrus61]

I absolutely love that series. I too think it is interesting how so many people have all the same things sitting on the shelf but we never talk about it with others until the shelf falls off the wall. We hear the nagging voice, but we are told that THAT voice is from the devil. Yeah, the church has become its own stumbling block.

[@LifeAfterBelief]

@@boysrus61 exactly! I was convinced that the little nagging voice was Satan trying to confuse me. Grrrr so maddening!

[@krakenfan6818]

What is the LDS discussion series?

[@LifeAfterBelief]

@@krakenfan6818 it’s a series on Mormon Stories that go through all the problematic truth claims of the church. Rather than silo each issue and address them with apologetics, like I did as a believing member, this connects the issues together in a very insightful way. There is a lot of them, so buckle up! kzbin.info/aero/PLxq5opj6GqOB7J1n6pMmdUSezxcLfsced&si=rm9i5tnDmQHgcmHb

[@Gideonslc]

Robert K Ritner (RIP,) July 2020 interview on MSP gave detailed history of the scrolls, facsimiles, and his research work and mentoring Professor Klaus Baer. Egyptologists knew in 1918 that what the Church had published, and was claiming translated from Abraham, was false and had contacted Church leadership to explain what was wrong. Ritner again wrote his own letter and request for apology from John Gee for misrepresenting his thesis. That wrapped up my shelf very tight with detcord. Look for John Gee & Kerry Muhlstein answers on FAIR ignited that detcord. The church has lied, is lying, & will continue to lie about it's history because the truth is very damaging to it's narrative.... FWIW Brigham Young married them off as toung as 11 in SLC. That girls was pregnant within a year. Brigham Young is just as evil as Warren Jeffs.

[@boysrus61]

You didn't know what your were studying or take in the whole elephant because it is by design! Once you see you can't unsee.

[@Coastal1931]

‘It was all by design’ conspiracy theorist I see. Were you wearing a tinfoil hat when you read the CES letter?

[@mylesmarkson1686]

@@Coastal1931 You sure were!

[@tonelove666]

Omg wow! You have so many mormons commenting on your posts! They should be careful Rusty wouldnt want them looking into any anti mormon information. They might get cursed or get pricked by the truth. Thanks for sharing your stories. Please keep sharing💜

[@AS72831]

Great for the algorithm but they’re so annoying. Oh no, I once sounded like that.

[@evelyntaylor742]

For me, my shelf broke after talking to a BYU professor with expertise in Egyptology about the Book of Abraham. He said Joseph Smith did not translate the Book of Abraham correctly. The way he reconciled it was the catalyst theory.

[@JSandLDS]

I have to admit. Joseph smith was clever. The book of Mormon was custom designed to solve Two 19th problems. One being the justification of the Ransacking of the Native Americans culture and land.. The other that, American Christian denominations had become a bit unmoored and all over the shop since America severed ties with England. In that Context, BOM came in with a ready-made solution that tied it all up in a neat package.

[@rodneyjamesmcguire]

My huge shelf, made of the finest, and sturdiest mahogany, finally broke when I figured out how Joe came up with the Book of Mormon, while at the same time realizing there is, so far, no evidence for its' absurd and extraordinary physical claims. Essentially every field of science must be completely wrong for the Book of Mormon to be true.

[@kentthalman4459]

So many issues. Where to start?

[@luketorrie8438]

I'm not a Scriptorian but there is a scripture in the Bible if a prophet doesn't do what Heavenly Father wants him to do HIS LIFE IS FORFIT immediately SO ETHER THE INFO YOU HAVE IS FAULSE OR Heavenly Father asked him to do it. I say good luck to you JUDGING HEAVENLY FATHERS ACTIONS.I don't care I know his is a TRUE PROPHET AND THE BOOK OF MORMON IS SCRIPTURE PERIOD HAVE A GREAT DAY. I hope you realize you faith again before you lose ETERNAL LIFE.

[@NWPaul72]

There are people in this world that would rather stay fooled than admit they were fooled.

[@luketorrie8438]

@@NWPaul72 a church that won't let you join unless you get on your Knees and Ask God if it's true. Is the only church that is following the command of James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him or Matt 7:7-87 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened 99% of religion's people don't understand religion. You choose your church based on what YOU WANTED IT TO BE. Religion isn't yours to choose it's HIS. I challenge you to HUMBLE yourselves and get on your Knees and Ask God which Church is his. There can only be ONE. Have a great day.

[@luketorrie8438]

I'm not a Scriptorian but there is a scripture in the Bible if a prophet doesn't do what Heavenly Father wants him to do HIS LIFE IS FORFIT immediately. You have fallen for lies. I know his is a TRUE PROPHET AND THE BOOK OF MORMON IS SCRIPTURE. I hope you realize your faith again before you lose ETERNAL LIFE. I love you and wish you would have listened to our current Apostles Elder Hollend said doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. You are in my prayers.

[@JIKOKALOL]

What happens when you revere and follow "prophets"? You get let down when they screw up. Moral of the story...don't put your trust and testimony in man.

[@are-jaypeterson6190]

Since almost all of the truth claims are fabrications. Could you provide examples of those you don't believe to be fabrications?

[@Faith.unraveled]

@@are-jaypeterson6190 the first vision, the book of Abraham, the priesthood restoration, the origins of the native people of the Americas, the translation of the Book of Mormon. All fabrications which have been substantiated by the church.

[@are-jaypeterson6190]

@@Faith.unraveled I am more interested in knowing what you think are not fabrications since you said "almost all" of the truth claims are.

[@Faith.unraveled]

@@are-jaypeterson6190 oh I missed that! It’s a really great question and to be honest, I can’t think of any. Wow what a startling thought experiment

[@geoffshelley2427]

Oh, so sad. These stories make me want to cry. You must ask yourself, what is it you really want? The plain truth is this: If you look for or listen to reasons to doubt, disbelieve, disparage and leave, you'll find them. But if you look for reasons to believe, follow and stay, you'll find those instead. Always, always believe personal revelation over supposed "facts" The "native American" DNA is the perfect example of this. In 2008 mainstream DNA science seemed to refute BoM claims. However, if you're going to accept that science as "the truth", then you must totally disbelieve the Bible as well! For those same scientists claim that humans have been on this continent for tens of thousands of years. Adam couldn't therefore have been the first man on earth some short 6,000 years ago as the Bible claims. Today we now know the truth. Haploid group X found in tribes originating from the Great lakes area share markers with other Israelite descendants. AND a migration of mid Asian peoples appeared on the continent about 400 AD which then mixed with the remnants. Thus the dominance of mid Asian DNA. Say what you will about Joseph. If you are looking for a perfect human religious leader before you'll accept the work of God, you'd better just abandon religion all together. (Sadly that's what too many do.) My covenants are with God, not Joseph Smith. Finally, if Satan can get you to disbelieve or disregard personal revelation or accept a counterfeit, he has you. You are his. Good luck with that. My challenge to everyone is this. Read two chapters of the New Testament with sincerity daily for eighteen month. Read and re-read that book. At the end of that time see how you feel. Is your life better, or worse? See what you think about all of this then.

[@talkingtacticstalkingchels4441]

Mormonism disagrees with Christianity.. the doctrine is just completely different. Also, the origin of man in the Bible wasn’t meant to be scientific, as the Bible didn’t draw out a timeline, people did. But the Book of Mormon literally has it on the cover page and taught that for years, with current prophets unable to see they were wrong until science came along?

[@geoffshelley2427]

@@talkingtacticstalkingchels4441 Really? Sooo, Genesis chapters 5 and 11 are just a bunch of hooy? And we CAN'T unequivocally say that it's been about 6,000 years since the first days of Adam? Wow! So like I said, if you believe in all that DNA stuff (according to mainstream science) then you HAVE TO DISBELIEVE the bible. Sounds like you are already there. Here is the likely truth. Go to 13:10 kzbin.info/www/bejne/gZDcq4xjfL2Hpdk Like I said. Believe personal revelation EVERY TIME over supposed "facts".

[@geoffshelley2427]

@@talkingtacticstalkingchels4441 Oh, and what if the Book of Mormons IS an actual record of an actual people? What then?

[@talkingtacticstalkingchels4441]

@@geoffshelley2427 😂 😂 it’s not…

[@geoffshelley2427]

@@talkingtacticstalkingchels4441 that wasn't my question. But what if it is (even hypothetically) then what?

[@ninja6567]

Joseph Smith fought polygamy. And the DNA evidence you were shown was not correct a few years later they redid some of the tests and they looked at the northeastern us tribes and their DNA does match Middle Eastern Origins

[@susanhaney3437]

It would be good if you cited your sources for these studies, since your claims go against the scientific consensus.

[@LifeAfterBelief]

@@susanhaney3437 yes, exactly! Thanks Susan! Ninja, please provide evidence. Because your claims don’t pass the sniff test.

[@mountainman4859]

Joseph Smith did NOT fight polygamy. Emma Smith and Oliver Cowdry did. It got Oliver excommunicated, and Emma a stern warning from God - as recorded in the D&C if she didn’t desist in opposing it. When Joseph handed her the ‘revelation’ authorizing polygamy, she promptly threw it on the fire. This all happened because they had a 14 year old foster daughter named Fanny Alger. Emma came home and found her and Joseph ‘in the act.’ And was enraged. To try and justify it, Joseph suddenly and conveniently produced a revelation claiming God commanded him to secretly marry Fanny. Emma threw the revelation on the fire, kicked Fanny out, and sent for Oliver Cowdry who backed Emma. Joseph took many wives. Including women who were already married. He had a habit of sending their husbands on missions to get them out of the way…lol.

[@katesomossy4157]

I believe it was shown that mtDNA was introduced after Columbus discovered the Americas. You can bet if there was any such evidence as you claim, it would appear in The Church's Gospel Topic Essay titled "Book of Mormon and DNA Studies" and it does not.

[@AS72831]

Wrong. You need to read further.

[@shootergavin3541]

She must have had a shelf that was made in a Chinese factory with massive defects. A serious student of history knows that though being "married" to a say a 16 year old is "offensive" in todays culture, it was really not a big deal in 19th century America. The whole idea of being an adult at 18 is not a thing until the 20th century. That is why Gov Ford of Illinois was married to a 16 year old and nobody made much of an issue of it. Sure it was not "common" in those days but not illegal by an means. In fact most states in the US in the 19th century sent their ages of consent at 12 to 14 but Delaware was as low as 7. Not saying that was ok but that is how things were back then. Joseph being "married" or sealed to a 15 or 16 year old in those days was not that big of a deal. If this lady was born in the early 19th century, it would not be a big deal either. It is only a big deal because she is living in 2024. This lady would make a horrible historian as she engages in the great fallacy of interpreting history by presentism. That is interpreting events in the past using modern day standard. Using her standard, she must believe that Mary, the mother of Jesus was at least 24 years old. As Joseph would not have married a 15 or 16 year old. Most historians believe that Mary was 15 or 16 when she gave birth to Jesus. That would mean that Joseph married a underage girl in the New Testament. Joseph would not have done that. Surely he would have followed our values of the 20th and 21st century that it was wrong for any woman to be married before 18. Yet NOBODY in the 1st century accused Joseph of marrying an underage girl. The same reason that NOBODY in the 19th century accused Joseph Smith of marrying "underage" girls. It simply was not an idea that could be made by even Joseph Smith critics. ALL critics of Joseph with who suggest Joseph married underage girls are MODERN ones who engage in presentism. Contemporary ones of Joseph Smith do not. This lady shelf broke because she had a bad shelf. She is free to believe what she wants but is she was an historian, she would surely suck at understanding historical events.

[@LongJourneys]

While there were people getting married to young teenagers in the 19th century, in most cases the people being married only had a few year's difference between them. The same thing still happens today where a 16-17 year old will, with parental consent, marry someone within 2-3 years of their age. It was NOT "common" for a man in his late 20s or older to be marrying 14,15, 16 year old girls, and was looked on with the same distaste that it is today. A serious student of history would understand that nuance. I heard the same thing when I was a member - that it was "normal" for adult men to be marrying teenagers. Turns out that is a complete lie. It wasn't "normal" or socially acceptable then any more than it is now.

[@boysrus61]

Ohhhhhh, when your shelf breaks, and it will, it will be OK because most of us on this side were once in the bubble that you are now. Be kind to yourself when it happens friend and know that you too will survive and find a better life over here.

[@DmanRC]

So there @shootergavin3541, it sounds like it’s this woman’s fault for not having a good enough “shelf” and apparently I missed the part where she claimed to be a historian. It sounds like you believe your presentism argument and comparison of Smiths disgusting and illegal behavior. We all need a shelf like yours.

[@katesomossy4157]

Lol, you missed the WHOLE point of what she said. You are taking exception with one of the issues when the whole point of what she said was it was the overwhelming totality that broke her metaphorical shelf. I expect next you will also tell her that polyandry, when Joseph Smith married other men's wives, was also the norm in JS's day.

[@bmo5082]

I used to sound a lot like you. Over the years I had to stop justifying bad behaviors. Funny enough while I think it’s absolutely abhorrent that a man would take on multiple wives, especially when they are 14 years old and even more especially because he didn’t tell Emma, I actually don’t think Joseph practiced polygamy. The truth it going to come out and show that all the claims of polygamy are a fabrication on later church leaders.

[@Coastal1931]

Quality of information is quite important. Unfortunately, the CES letter is quite deceptive, and certainly not high enough quality to help make serious life decisions, in my opinion.

[@mylesmarkson1686]

The CES Letter is 100% truth. Never let a corporate cult make ANY life-decisions for you. After all, it is the truth that will set you free.

[@dylanwilliams2202]

​@@mylesmarkson1686LOL The CES Letter is 100% anti truth and only someone with no intellectual honesty would believe it. Nothing in the CES Letter stands under scrutiny

[@katesomossy4157]

The information in the CES Letter with it's detailed footnotes to Church sources, has greatly damaged The Church. If it was easily addressable or resolvable The Church would have officially done so already. The only effort they have made to address it, is the Gospel Topics Essays. Which they don't really promote and have buried on their webpage because their own essays have led members to have faith crises.

[@dylanwilliams2202]

@@Coastal1931 The CES Letter is 100% anti truth and only someone with no intellectual honesty would believe it. Nothing in the CES Letter stands under scrutiny and has been debunked by multiple different people.

[@dylanwilliams2202]

@@mylesmarkson1686 The CES Letter is 100% anti truth and only someone who is gullible would believe it. Nothing in the CES Letter stands under scrutiny and has been debunked by multiple different people.