My problem with 10th edition 40k

[@TheBoneZone40k]

Here is Deadlifts for the Dark Gods amazing video kzbin.info/www/bejne/qKeVl2euppd4aNksi=i71sVepdsMbop-Gb

[@patrickdudder1933]

How did you comment 6d ago when the vid released 30 minutes ago?

[@AarenJable]

@@patrickdudder1933 Time travel, dude.

[@johnwhite9461]

Dear Mr Bones. Thanks for this video, you are on point. I was a manager for GW back in the golden age and I shifted so much 3rd and 4th edition 40K, you wouldnt believe. But I have been out of the hobby for a long time, I took it up again last summer because I am living with cancer and the hobby called to me again. Since then Ive built up 4 3000 point armies and been playing my friends, and 10th edition was just a total fail with us. The game just is not fun, and if you read Rick Priestley's book on Wargame design, you will see he laid out years ago exactly what not to do with making the rules gritty so play moves at a snails pace with loads of interactions to resolve, and at the same time detached, as in there is a meta game going on that has nothing to do with the state of play on the actual tabletop. 40K was actually killed off at the same time as Warhammer Fantasy, but with the change of number from 7th to 8th, no-body noticed. A changelling was put in the crib. Now we see what that changelling has turned into as Games Workshop has tried to turn 40K into a DOTA tabletop simulator but dumped all the mental load of making a computer game system work on the poor tired brains of the poor bloody players, who just wanted to have fun, not get sucked into 4 hours of mathematics just to play a small game of 40K. Its small wonder players are fleeing the system in favour of the past. My group has been experimenting heavily with 3rd to 7th, in the end we have settled on third, with some adaptions to vehicles and monsterous creatures, and we have taken the breaks off a bit by either agreeing to expand the force chart with some extra HQ slots, or pick armies like it was done in 2nd, 25% troops, up to 50% specials up to 50% characters (with all the squad leaders coming from the character allowance and then being allocated units to lead). This is working well as a bit of a more jizzed up version of the older game and Im thinking about starting to formalise things with some (re) designer notes, seeing if others might be interested in what my group is cooking. The one thing for sure is we are having a blast, and no longer rely on GW for either rules or models to play just what the hell we like, and thats how it ALWAYS should be!

[@lazersheep]

@@patrickdudder1933 it's his channel, he can comment on the video before it's public.

[@Eddy_Grimm]

Last Bone on youtube to use 4:3. Sacrifice to the retro gods.

[@Ash-sf4gr]

You raise a lot of good points, especially with death guard. They also did psychic dirty. Though i did have a good chuckle at "All my factions feel the same! I play marines, marines, marines, evil marines, stinky evil marines and short marines."

[@TSINIproductions]

I’m hesitating to even continue listening after that statement.

[@griffoncs6431]

I thought the same thing at first but honestly if all those marine armies don't feel unique, which they have in previous editions, then why are they even in the game?

[@Higglebert]

@@TSINIproductions yeah ill admit even i usually listen to these videos with half a brain and was dumbfounded at that statement. Of course they are going to feel the same, they are

[@dylanburnett7928]

@@griffoncs6431 Because Space Marines are ultra-populur but Ultramarines are not.

[@recurvestickerdragon]

I first started with Tau, but when they created the psychic phase, I felt a little left out and wanted to try tsons. now that I'm getting my tsons together, they ditch the phase again

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

GW: "We need to make things more accessible." Also GW: * Raises the prices *

[@gordonfr333man]

3d printer goes brrrrrrrrr

[@DarkCatfish]

Demand goes up so does cost.

[@ganonstonebreaker4231]

@@DarkCatfish + Artificially low supply = artificially bloated price

[@vampyrehotdog1387]

@@ganonstonebreaker4231 literally the EXACT opposite of supply and demand

[@malekith13]

Have you ever purchase anything during the last... i don't know.... century ? everything is having it's prices increased and many things have increased way more than GW's products, you know the " not vital at all hobby " nobody threaten you to buy ?

[@unclesamlore]

You took the words right out of my mouth. I played against the death guard and was baffled at the lack of defensive buffs they had. It was ridiculous

[@OmensofDisease]

Death gaurd, no defensive buff. That's like getting a car with no engine

[@turtlepaladin4750]

Hey it’s Uncle Sam. I love your content

[@PrincessKushana]

What they did to my beloved stinky boys is criminal.

[@redrumssam5888]

I like them way better now tbh

[@lukestacey9018]

The plague marines are better in melee rn imo, and it’s frustrating that they’re slower and squishier than I’d like them to be… rhinos are a must take for sure.

[@themediater]

I think a perfect example of the "characters only being able to be attached to specific types of squads" issue is the Genestealer Patriarch, in the lore, they're supposed to be the irreplaceable, beloved leader of the cult that either lurks in the shadows or directs stuff strategically, only getting into an actual fight when he's sure he can win. So what units can he attach to? The purestrain genestealers of course, the guys that get used as suicidal charging shock units jumping out shipping containers or sewers to kill as much as they can before getting killed by return fire. He can't attach to any of the cult units at all and obviously if you run him solo he will just get shot to pieces cause he doesn't have lone operative or any other defensive ability.

[@bziebzie]

Man if things were lore accurate, Cron would be fun

[@spnked9516]

Theres a solid number of these instances. Dark Eldar, hands down the worst faction in 10ed, can take an archon as an HQ. An archon is primarily a melee bruiser, but you can't stick him with incubi, you pretty much have to stick him with kabalites who want nothing to do with melee.

[@jean-philippehaufroid6425]

@@spnked9516 the Dark eldar are also the best exemple of how boring cutomisation is ! Only one enhancement for each character except for the generic one that everybody can take... That's it !

[@spnked9516]

@@jean-philippehaufroid6425 as the worst faction in 10th, the dark Eldar are sort of the poster children for the problems with the edition. I mean, look at list building for example - how do you think you make DE lists in 10ed? You take anything that can have a dark lances. That's it. Combat drugs, advance and charge, and DE invul saves have all been yeeted or changed for the worst, so wyches and incubi are both functionally terrible and over-costed. Homunculi covens are just sort of unremarkable and mid - at best, and flying has been gutted across the board. I mean, Jesus Christ, one of your best units right now, mandrakes, aren't even a purchasable thing from GW. Absolutely abandoned faction.

[@shaedeymamlas5496]

Gets doubly dumb when you realize that incubi are lorewise almost always either bodyguards for hire, or an Archon's retinue...@@spnked9516

[@pisquid9309]

As a player who joined in the very end of 9th, I do appreciate the much more approachable rules and list construction. But it's also very frustrating not having a ton of flavor that I can put into my list.

[@JawaBob]

Same, I'm loving much of 10th edition and its really pulled me back into the game. Its a double edged sword, I'm happy their balancing it but at the same time my main frustration is the pace rule changes are released and trying to keep track of the updates.

[@josephhansen4072]

Same. As an Imperial Knights player I felt a bit lost between all the different houses and the honor system and all the stratagems… but honestly now I kinda miss the customization

[@Neothunder240]

It's not even more approachable now with so many traps.

[@garbageguy2599]

Nah the loss of psychic phase really pulled me out since my favorite armies are thousand sons and grey knights

[@Neothunder240]

@@garbageguy2599 I don't think the lack of a psychic phase is the problem. 3rd and 4th and even the new HH don't have them. They just made the powers incredibly boring and removed all psychic tests.

[@spnked9516]

My general feeling about 10ed is that it's good - if you've never played 40k. As soon as you a couple of games under your belt it becomes immediately clear what the core problem with 10ed - it wants you to play each faction in one (or a handful of your codex is out) extremely narrowly defined manner. As soon as you step outside of the prescribed playstyle and units, you are actively punished by the game.

[@glitch200]

That's GWs sales model. Punish those who don't chase the meta and new models are always the meta.

[@Grastiars1]

As someone who only started in 10th I can say this fits my mindset

[@CatroiOz]

​@@glitch200lmao imagine getting new models 😂 better be a space marine player then or all you're getting is maaaaybe one character here and there

[@gunplagoat2678]

Idk space marines for dark angels can play ironstorm/firestorm/stormspear/gladius/vanguard to success and have been putting up numerous top 8s since rhe marine codex droppedn

[@universeturtle]

seems like as a DG player, if I don't put a bunch of dudes in rhinos every game, I'll never keep up score wise. Like you said, punished harshly for not narrowing .

[@ugandanknuckles1179]

I really feel the lack of flavor. In ninth I got started off in Warhammer playing Mechanicus because of the play style of stacking auras abilities and buffs to make units or lists that were semi decent into ones that were both powerful and flavorful, and now with tenth we get basically advance and shoot or +1 to hit when stationary, a few stratagems and some deployment and battle line shenanigans and it just feels like playing guard with some different strats

[@Cesspit7]

they lack of flavoured the DA. might aswell paint ultramarines green say they like wearing robes and were done.

[@lilbost4]

I miss chapter specific traits

[@un0riginal539]

R.I.P. the Combi-weapons, gotta be the single worst rules decision in the entire edition.

[@jean-philippehaufroid6425]

I would say that removing psykic take the cake...

[@TheBlastmeister]

combi weapons were pretty dumb IMO. They were special weapons with a terrible bolter attached to it. A bolter that made the special weapon worse if you wanted to use it. Why not just have the special weapon? Flavor wise its neat i guess, but rules wise it was a pointless mess that just made things more complicated for the same results.

[@un0riginal539]

@@TheBlastmeister it wasn’t really a mess, you have a bolt gun and also another weapon. Having combi flamers is very different than combi plasma as I’m basically taking flamers/plasmas with an extra bolt gun shot hitting on a 4+. If it’s so complicated then just don’t take it, the bolt rifle option exists anyway. Also the new profile is genuinely terrible I will never use it, which as a salamanders player hurts because the best ways to get good meltas and flamers on the table is through sternguard.

[@rickrivers2021]

I honestly think free wargear and fixed unit size is worse

[@un0riginal539]

​@@rickrivers2021 that was just ported from aos tho

[@pizzaflavoredh2o478]

"In tenth edition we want to dial back mortal wounds and damage output." Proceeds to make dev wounds.

[@kippercsg]

Then they realised their mistake, Dev Wounds no longer does mortals.

[@user-hv6gi9ux6z]

Its now worse as you cant get your fnp agasint mortals now​@@kippercsg

[@scolack123]

​@@kippercsg which ruined a ton of units defensive ability of having FNP vs mortal wounds *cough* custodes

[@kippercsg]

@@scolack123 good. There shouldn't be saves against fnp. I think it was a bad idea to have attacks that ignore invulnerables.

[@Very_Unwise]

Saves against feel no pain? What are you even saying here?

[@notoriousblt3085]

Started typing it right as you said it: I think 10th edition has good bones, a strong foundation is there for it to improve, but you're also correct that they've homogenized factions in their efforts to establish that foundation. I'm still able to have a good time playing the game, since its always fun to get my plastic men out and roll dice with a friend, but we definitely lost some interesting interactions in the change to 10th edition. I suspect that the fluffier (and more complicated) rules will return with 11th edition, just as 9th edition pushed the rules from 8th into more complicated and complicated territory. Hopefully the strong foundation of 10th will mean that it won't get quite as insane and edge-case-y as 9th though (us AdMech players had to twist our brains into knots at the start of every turn and I don't miss that)

[@midnightecho8228]

I really wish they let us customize units again. I collect space marine and gotta say it sucks to suddenly learn one day your chapter's specific wargears are now gone, alongside with some gear your chapter's elite units usually run with in lore no longer valid on tabletop. For example vanguard veterans no longer can run dual LC for Raven Guards.

[@jo_ken]

I’m just happy Kantor survived the purge of datasheets, but you’ve got a great point. I think they did all the customization cut down so their list building app would be less bloated.

[@retardedfishfrogs1]

Dun worry vanguard vets probably won't make it to 11th

[@obtainablespatula5389]

firstborn are being retired. simple as that.

[@freewillgeorge]

wait what? Doesn't the kit come with duel LCs? that's bloody stupid.

[@ghostrangerz8273]

@@obtainablespatula5389 11th edition will probably make it against the rules to play first born tbh.

[@Ender618m]

"all these armies feel the same!" *Sobs in Grey Knight Wargear options*

[@Kepora1]

*Gives a dark chuckle, solemnly swirling and downing whiskey in memories of 3.5 and 9th Chaos*

[@lunettesfumees1312]

Loosing 80% of our infantry weapons and still getting nerfed in the end was a real nutcracker

[@kreeder6852]

So basically table top Warhammer will be like Overwatch was for me? The more they focus on competitive players the less fun I will have.

[@hauntorthegiraffebiscuit]

Amen.

[@Tehstampede]

Writing lists and playing the game from a lore-first standpoint has always been something I've struggled to overcome. I'll try to write lists that are competitive within the context of the game rules but I always end up making changes to include units that are either cool or make sense to me from an in-universe standpoint. Playing against other people with the same mindset is almost always a blast, even when its a game loss. Playing against competitive mechanics-first players is usually a miserable experience, and to be fair it isn't their fault. It's just a case of disparate views on how to play the game.

[@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber]

As another (mostly) casual player I have also mentioned a lot that I liked earlier editions. This is a nice edition for ease of picking it up and understanding an army quickly but it does lack flavour for a lot of units

[@istvanmitca5691]

I feel you 10th just feels like a souless version of 9th looking at how they killed all and any flavour in chaos Knights like their marks and Blessing abilities that actually made me pick up the army in the first Case

[@jean-philippehaufroid6425]

I was planning to customise at least one knight for each god before 10th... Now i don't even want to try...

[@istvanmitca5691]

I litelary just did that converted ally knights to represent one god based on which blessing they take each game now thats fully gone

[@Copperbagel]

I was happy knowing they lowered the stratagems. But when I heard things like how they would remove all choice or flavor in the form of Psykers, now you don't get to pick your Psychic Abilities, and they are indistinguishable between weapons and regular-ass abilities.

[@Streygenmoment]

I both like and dislike 10th edition. For one, I like how I don't have to memorize 500 different rules to almost play effectively. On the other hand, 10th edition's balancing is all over the place

[@bearwho8044]

I started to get into the game during the last few weeks of 9th and was in love with Death Guard's rules. I love going for survivability and tankiness in games, and they had fun board control abilities and some wackier ones that tickled me. I built up a small army in preparation for 10th, and when it finally came out I genuinely almost dropped the hobby entirely. It felt like a slap in the face with all of the stuff I loved from my first army just not existing anymore

[@theshamurai32]

This was me, but with Guard and the codex shenanigans (and while we weren't getting the belt as bad as you guys, our rules also kinda suck and are counterintuitive to our flavor, like how we have to stand still to use our detachment rule or cant use our faction rule while using transports).

[@jazzy4830]

Death guard needed a change away from slow and tanky. If that Grindy playstyle becomes the meta it leads to a bunch of unfun static games. I personally thing a more diseased debuff-forward gameplay makes sense with only a minor toughness bump to the astartes themselves. The game has become oversaturated with 'super rules' (like +++FNP saves, Mortal Wounds, and stuff which says any weapon can only wound on a 4/5+) getting applied across whole armies due to factionwide rules. DG may not have fully made the transition to where they are going (Debuff focused), but I think the change will be for the best.

[@Woodception]

@@jazzy4830 Tell me you don't understand balancing flavour and meta without telling me you don't understand balancing flavour and meta.

[@jazzy4830]

@@Woodception Fans of 'Watch paint dry! : the army' are mad clearly. I'm sure you have your diploma in game design from that comment.

[@nottegiew]

​@@jazzy4830seethe less shill

[@HappyNoob17YT]

as a space marine player, my captain and chaplain were my two favorite hqs because i had a lot of customization for my chaplain, i loved picking litanies and artifacts for my captain but now the chaplain is a seminary school drop out and my captain is just guy with sword smack thing.

[@toooldfortwowheels2048]

I only restarted in 10th, after over 20 years out. I came back for Squats, my friend joined me and took up Death Guard... As you can imagine for those first 3-4 months we did not have much fun.

[@jordanmay3287]

Ok, gonna state my thoughts before watching and see how this goes. Warhammer 10th has the same issue as D&D 5e. Both franchises started seeing unexpected growth in mainstream popularity, and in an effort to capitalize on and maximize this growth have altered their product to try and make it more palatable to the masses. On paper, good idea because more growth means more money, duh! But in this effort they end up altering core aspects of the property that they deem too “niche”, thus making it slowly feel more and more generic, and removing the interesting and creative aspects that caused the increased popularity in the first place. Warhammer is almost step by step following the path that D&D forged. It will make them a lot of money in the short term, but popularity will collapse, and the hobby will become niche again or die trying

[@hauntorthegiraffebiscuit]

In both cases as well, the slow speed that new content rolls out causes homebrewed content to be the bandaid that needs to last months-years….To the point where those making homebrew make their own systems.

[@jordanmay3287]

After watching the video I would like to add this. The biggest crime of 10th is killing the feeling of uniqueness. I am relatively new to the hobby and entered specifically because of how fascinating I found not only the overall world building structure, but specifically the culture and feel of the White Scars. I loved that their play style matched their lore. High risk high reward maneuvers focusing on speed and melee over shooting and survivability. In the hands of a competent tactician, anyone who underestimated them as generic Space Marines would find themselves being torn apart when and where they least expected it. The game was more about the tactical skill of the players and less about building the right list to fit the meta. Now the only difference between armies is their paint job

[@LifeofSquidMann]

Then we'll just have to hold out until 40k fans decide to start their own OSR like DnD fans did

[@KingBobbito]

I know you said you're new to the hobby so I understand where you're coming from, but I find your comment so funny because there was a point where white scars were top meta, and it was about a very specific list built only using bikes and nothing else, and in general it was kind of braindead because you could null deploy and not need to plan at all how you'd deploy against your opponent. The main reason people remember it all the way back from 5th edition is that it was famously beaten by a list that prevented it from entering the table from the null deployment, losing the game before turn 1. If you google "kroot conga line" there's a really funny article about it from dicebreaker.

[@LordCrate-du8zm]

Ima be honest, 10th is imperfect. A few of their new rules kinda just don’t work, and their balancing system barely makes sense. But I’d prefer it over the bloated mess that was 9th. 10th has cool stuff, like attaching leaders to units and free wargear. It’s so much less stressful pin-pointing which units get what guns, and whether one extra Bolt Pistol in my Hellblaster squad will push my list past the set limits. It feels approachable and simple, perfect for new fans.

[@ThuleHammer]

I would like to offer 2 counterpoints. 1) attached leaders to squads isn't new, and while it is a good system, I don't think 10th should get credit for doing what has been done already 2) making war gear free removes choices. By making every option cost the same, but not perform the same on the tabletop, you are actively punishing players for not taking the best profile, rather than the weapon they want to bring

[@theemissary1313]

No system is perfect, but 10th has imperfections almost designed to irritate and baffle people.

[@joriankell1983]

​@@theemissary1313that's EVERY edition since 4th

[@LordCrate-du8zm]

@@ThuleHammer Terminators had a way around this by making each weapon option useful for different scenarios. Assault Cannon is a blender that rips apart anything you point it at. Heavy Flamer is a massive overwatch threat, great for punishing an approach. Cyclone Missile launcher is a Jack-of-all-trades. It can do both okay but isn’t as good for an individual task. Power fists are great for infantry, whilst chainfists are strong against vehicles.

[@Beans-m1x]

​@LordCrate-du8zm yeh I agree that free wargear promotes more choice as long as the weapons are balanced in this way where each has a scenario that it excels in making it a valid choice

[@calibaniteknight9020]

This is why I've been playing 3rd edition a lot more recently. It's not balanced in the slightest, but there's serious fun to be had. Plus, 4th edition fantasy was really nice.

[@Anathema0420]

Idk but 2nd-5th was dope, cheers either way.

[@Parabueto]

Yeah I play between 3rd and 5th basically depending if I want to play new Dark Eldar/Corsairs or not.

[@SierraHotel2]

I got in big at the end of 4th. They lost me in 6th. 7th was a complete joke; I threw in the towel. Glad to see all you younger guys are getting wise to GW's cycle. Sorry it's happening to you. Come join us in the nostalgiarium and we'll drink amasec and share corpse starch rations and talk about how abusive James Workshop is.

[@locomotivevoice]

I don't really play tabletop but is there a reason you cant just go back and play older editions with friends if they agree to it? Seems like an easy fix

[@MitchellWelsh-i6l]

​@@locomotivevoice it's the same problem as playing with models gw has put into legends. The vast majority of the player base won't let you. You could absolutely try and get people to play an older edition, but it's an uphill battle from day 1

[@swordbrotherplatt9392]

@@MitchellWelsh-i6lyep you pretty much nailed it. At my local store (1 hours drive away) they will only play the current edition. Why? Well that’s what the store competitions are run under. So no one is willing to play a game that follows any older rules sets. @SierraHotel2 damn,.. you too? Started at tail end of 4th, did ok through 5th, only played 6th when allowed to use my codex rules (Black Templar), dropped out in 7th, came back in 8th didn’t win much but had fun, started to enjoy 9th, tried one game of 10th and said I’ll wait until 11th drops. The two most terrible things about this is; 10th Ed Black Templars are brutal according to published stats, and I finally got my wife interested in playing (Death Guard, Necrons, Orks) but I don’t want to play this rule set. Which would hurt her if she decides to play one else.

[@ra-rarasputin210]

Cheers to 4th edition! Never forgive that James Workshop took our blast templates

[@kreol1q1q]

Hah, I had the exactly identical experience. Got in as a kid in 4th, lost the time and money around sixth, and tried getting back in 7th - I played Aspect-focused Eldar and was thrilled that the Aspects were finally getting a buff with all those formations you could field. Came to my local place, played three-ish games of seventh and kinda never came back. Damn my Aspect Eldar were suddenly so horridly broken I tabled all three opponents in two or three turns. Knocked the fun right out of the game.

[@knuckl6972]

That point about the Einhyr is why you can't add characters to units willy-nilly. If every character could join every unit, most characters stop being relevant at all. If every good Space marine character could just join bladeguard, there would be way fewer options that people actually take It kind of reminds me of competitive pokemon, where people complain about bans because they restrict creativity, but if stuff wasn't banned they'd just bring six of whatever guy is the best

[@notknightbean]

Ok but counterpoint Wouldn’t the champion benefit from attaching to betserkers? Reroll charges and a strong armored character to tank low ap shots on as you rip and tear in melee. Another example would be the terminator captain, who rerolls charges, and blade guard. They also want to get into melee and rerolling charges would be great, but I can’t. And even dumber is I can take a banner or a lieutenant and a captain in most squads, but a judicar, apothicary, librarian, tech marine or chaplain can only ever be taken as solo choices. What is so broken about an apothecary and a captain or chaplain and banner or a tech marine and lieutenant? Why did gw ban these unit combinations but let banners and or a lieutenant join captains in particular? It’s just gonna result in far less interest army lists for players.

[@jman6822]

​​@@notknightbeanu can take an Apothecary with a captain tho, as well as the Kahl can't lead Berzerkers so in that example u prove that if we just let everyone pick whatever they want it would just lead to everyone picking the better option

[@notknightbean]

@@jman6822why can’t i take both? Also seems super lame and basic compared to what we have even in heresy

[@jman6822]

@@notknightbean nothing saying u can't take an Apothecary, an ancient, a Lieutenant, and a captain all in one unit besides common sense. tbh the game is not even a year old while some characters should lead more it's more a matter of not enough different units to lead and if in a year we're still complaining then they fucked up

[@Chaunwilkerson]

Yeah, It's the same we have with free wargear, The best option becomes the only option unless you want to shoot yourself in the foot. The best example is with the Protus Killteam, you could take 6 DW vets and 4 jump pack vets but it'll cost the same as 6 DW vets and 4 terminators so why bother. Also smogon L, VGC is where it's at.

[@megakristof3855]

"All the factions play the same, I've played Space Marines, Space Marines, Space Marines, Deathwatch, Chaos Space Marines, Deathguard and Dwarves in Power Armour" Are you serious?

[@slitbodmod5600]

Are you being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian or did you genuinely fail this hard at actually understanding the point being made?

[@megakristof3855]

@slitbodmod5600 Did he not complain about all his Space Marine armies playing like Space Marines?

[@slitbodmod5600]

@@megakristof3855 So you just didn't get it.

[@megakristof3855]

@@slitbodmod5600 You can explain and try to convince, or you can be passive aggressive. Do you actually have anything to say?

[@slitbodmod5600]

@@megakristof3855 Give me one reason I should waste my time explaining something so simple to you.

[@hauntorthegiraffebiscuit]

I got into Warhammer a few months into 10th, had a vague idea of what Warhammer was but never really held interest. Having a 3d printer and liking the vibes of the orcs, I gave it a try. Dear god did a lot of things just start to blur together. I thought I was going nuts when I tried World Eaters and found it to be a lacking echo of my Orcs. Shoot while hoping for a 6 because I won’t land a shot otherwise, get into melee, die because my units have low wounds. World Eaters at least get something for having a unit die, but it amounts to “every weapon gets Lethal/Sustained hits”. Tried Aeldar and Necrons, a list with C’tan and a list with Khaine felt almost the same. I know that unique psychic abilities and war gear aren’t completely gone, I see plenty of options that I enjoy for both, but reading half of the options from 9th has me already making plans to find a couple codexes and learn that edition. Fittingly, this feels very much like my experience with D&D in the past couple years; got introduced to 5e, learned what was removed for the sake of simplicity, and find numerous ways said things could have been retained while making the game more accessible. History truly repeats itself.

[@insanemang9983]

You can fix getting shot off the board by changing the rules to have alternating unit activations, which will force both sides to deploy conservatively rather than knowing you'll be able to throw all firepower at the opponent and win.

[@Anathema0420]

It's a great house rule.

[@phanpny97]

How it works in necromunda, makes for a very refreshing and tactical expirence much more than current 40k

[@Anathema0420]

Yes, which is why it's in most favored game rules@@phanpny97 cheers

[@noblegalifreyan4551]

The fact they keep removing fluff rules that restrict or provides boon shows that they dont want people to have a feelsbadman moment. The problem is that people dont okay into a factions theme and become just a another shooter/melee/horde archetype.

[@johnwalton287]

I hate 10th Ed. Played one game with me emperors children and discovered I can only attach Lucius to noise marines or chosen. Why? And half my characters now can’t attach to anything as most of my infantry are noise marines or cultists, and have been since the dawn of 8th Ed. 10th Ed is different for the sake of being different to justify the sale of new rules for the very reason you stated at the beginning…….investment of money

[@DarthABBA]

10th is an edition I can never catch up to, everytime I come back a whole bunch has changed and I don't have time to have another job that is keeping up with a miniature game

[@williamhanna9718]

“All my factions play the same!”(proceeds to list off almost nothing but space marine factions…)

[@TaskMaster5]

Yes, but the various flavors of Marines did play quite differently. Vanilla Marines played different than Blood Angels, who played different than White Scars, who played differently than Dark Angels, who played differently from - You get the idea. Now all the marine factions play very, VERY similar. So why even give them their own books?

[@BoneTrait]

The other major problem with 10th (especially coming from 9th edition) is the complete lack of customization within a faction. To use the CSM codex as an example, Alpha Legion played ENTIRELY different from Iron Warriors, and part of that was the Warlord Traits and Relics you could bring. Modern detatchments solved the issue of “I want to use the Iron Hands rules with my Raven Guard”, but they did it by making each rule set be near meaningless outside a few cases.

[@benhramiak8781]

I got convinced to try 3rd by a friend. Good stuff tbh

[@T0mm3n]

3rd-5th were the best editions tbh

[@colinwalker6804]

As a new player who got in at the tail of 9th, I feel that the power armor factions specifically got homogenized a lot, but each faction that isn’t marines/power armor feels very different. Their faction rules, units, dynamics, look, and decision-making all feel distinct and fun. That said the loss of a lot of customization with characters, and specifically the loss of psychic and spells hit a lot of people a ton harder with their factions. Death Guard at least gets to be debilitating, but Thousand Sons & Grey Knights just cast gun now…

[@Anathema0420]

Lol,"just cast gun now."

[@KingBobbito]

GW took "mind bullets" a bit too literally.

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

"Why can't I put models in the same unit if they don't have the same outfit?" GW: "Err. . . Chaos fuckery creates a forcefield that prevents units in power armor from standing near units in terminator armor. We also changed the lore to that terminators are afraid of getting power armor cooties from less-seasoned marines."

[@theodorehodbor5080]

Just to preface this I am *very* new to actually playing Warhammer as I've only ever really done a couple pseudo-games with a roommate in-between the change from 9th to 10th edition. One change that I personally do not like very much is them completely axing the psychic phase of combat. Part of me realizes that yes that probably does streamline the game quite a bit axing an entire section of it but at the same end of it I feel like the psychic phase kinda made Warhammer a bit unique in its magic bullshit being like a dedicated part of the game and not just like a special ability indistinct from other special abilities. Maybe I'm just weird but that change genuinely made me reconsider going from collecting Tyranids as my go-to army to Necrons as I was wanting to go for a big brain-bug army but now it just feels kinda indistinct from a shooty hive guard+termagant spam army. Also I will admit another aspect of that was finding 9th edition zoanthrope+neurothrope 1d6+3 MW regenerating smites to be really heinous and funny, tho from what I've heard rumors of that's probably on the lower end of heinous BS that's possible in competitive 40k.

[@leonardskilroy3869]

9th edition was the best edition we've had. I hate almost everything about 10th.

[@jamiep9991]

Going back and reading the 2nd edition rulebook I was amazed at the amount of individual effects that could be put on units. For example if a unit of infantry was hit with a flame weapon and any models survived they would need to roll a D6 to put out the flames, this roll was made easier if othe models in the unit helped them put out the fire. Or the fact that a dreadnoughts plasma cannon could explode from overheating but the dreadnought could continue fighting without it.

[@Grubnar]

I once lost a game, when my Warboss lost a 'EADBUTTIN' duel against a Space Marine Dreadnought that had lost both it's arms. It was hilarious! It was literally the last dice roll of the game, very close, very exciting, and most importantly, very fun! That was in 4th edition.

[@TBRCHUD]

Second was great but go back to Rogue Trader era vehicle critical damage tables and the effects of Ork special weapons. Amazing stuff. One of my favorites game moments as a kid my Space Marine captain, ON FIRE, jumping over a wall and killing my older brothers Ork warboss to get one of my rare wins against him.

[@morgymomo8535]

couldn't agree more, in the process of simplification they just made everything bland and boring with no depth. that's why me and my bros started playing a weird homebrewed modification of 9th with additional rules for horus heresy units. I'm honestly just waiting for somebody with a brain to write up an entire rule set of 40k so I can use that instead. and 3 years is too short for an edition.

[@bendre1997]

1. Wow, great to see another Canadian! I also play a homebrew Death Guard and a Slaaneshi CSM/Chaos Knights hybrid as my secondary army. 2. Completely agree with this, it is astonishing how non-Nurgle the DG feel.

[@sweetramo7723]

10th edition ruined Space Marines (Crimson Fists) for me, as my army consisted and relied on Firstborn Units, and I love Firstborn over Primaris. But now they started to wipe out Firstborns, which I know was bound to happen, but I didn’t think they would do it in this edition specifically. What’s even worse is that the time I started (January 2023) I didn’t know that only 6 months later, 95% of my army would be marked as legends, and somehow made Pedro Kantor even more useless. And weapons with the Anti-vehicle x+ was killing my Dreadnoughts 20x faster than 9th edition. And then the removal of Chapter Tactics was stressing me out because my army relied on low numbers to overcome large count armies, but due to how units work now (and the lack of Crimson Fists Chapter tactics), I lost a lot in 10th, not that I hadn’t lost a lot back in 9th, but it made sense back then, but now it was just stupid with how fast I would just die. After playing 3 games with Space Marines and not having fun, I changed gears entirely and started Grey Knights, which was even worse as I don’t get an actual range of melee weapons, more of *one specific weapon* which is fine for basic infantry, but terminators/paladins use the same damn weapon stats. Our detachment also sucks as all it does is give us a 6” auto advance, but it’s useless as you can’t shoot nor declare a charge upon doing so. And then the leader units, if you don’t have anything but a terminator leader and a bunch of strike squads, you’re kinda toast thanks to the new stupid attachment mechanic. Then again, those are my current complaints. Also hate the new Sternguard wannabes.

[@sweetramo7723]

And the concept that Grey knights don’t have good range weapons to counter vehicles.

[@ProffesorHeadgear]

I started playing kill team a year ago and I honest to god can't go back to a system that doesn't do single model/unit activations. Moving your whole army at the same time is my biggest gripe with 40k. The "you go, I go" approach that 40k has been stuck with for decades only really work if there is less power creep. I played back in 5th edition. One of the strongest strategies was to keep everything hidden or in reserve to waste your opponent's first turn. It worked because back then you couldn't normally kill half an army in a single shooting phase.

[@omnissiahGaspar]

You could try playing One Page Rules Grimdark Future, I'm not the most familiar with it but you can use your GW models and it uses alternate activation

[@magosavinusvir2914]

I fully agree with that, I switched to kill team and realized just how much more fun it was than 10th ed

[@danielkuleshov5876]

i once wiped the floor with enemy drukhari corpses in 1 turn as crimson fists with pedro and devastators

[@viktordickinson7844]

Gatekeeping is good. Not holding the gates enough is how we got to this point.

[@tevin4006]

Im an ork player, I miss my rng rolls to make threatening or downright comical situations that created bad/fun tactics based on the fate of the Dice. That was the theme of my army. Crude, overwhelming, but bonkers. Or how about I could loot every vehicle under the sun. You had rules, weapon stats, and vehicle stats for *everything* you could get your grubby painty hands on. From leman Russes to Eldar wave serpents (I kidd you not, you had a lot to play with on the "looted" keyword, Look up and Ork Doomsday Ark, it's a treat). Sure those vehicles were scrappy and kind of Junky in terms of what they could be used for, but man was it fun to see my opponent say how cool those ork vehicles looked and whether they rammed and exploded to their deaths at my units or theirs. I just feel most armies just lost their identity with their in universe fluff in synergy with their rules to make it too "streamlined". They need to take more risk again with asymmetrical balance and ignore the *CoMpEtItIvE* scene and their gripes.

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

Playing Orkz should be like picking the jinxed trait in OG Fallout, but instead of making everyone miss it causes all manner of insanity to be possible. "And for my next action, my ork warboos pulls out a deck of many things . . ."

[@VashTS7]

As a Black Templar, I’m annoyed I can’t stop psyker powers.

[@lioneljohnson8787]

10th is the reason I started getting into Horus heresy and I do not regret it at all

[@palwinderdhillon8242]

I thought I was the only one. Horus Heresy is objectively the better wargame; it just feels like positioning and tactics matter rather than just remembering which combination of stratagems and unit abilities you can use to your advantage.

[@colinbielat8558]

I have never had a game of HH I did not have a blast playing. It feels like every other game of 10th I just hate with a passion.

[@dannydementia2542]

same, realy enjoying HH

[@Anathema0420]

Heresy loves us all...

[@FormerGovernmentHuman]

I want to play HH but I only have an interest in building world eaters and I only have an interest in world eaters if I can get ahold of all the unique pieces for said world eaters. However since GW has been sold out all year of WE helms, pauldrons and weapons to build and play them the way I want to play them and I don’t want to pay 2-3$ per bit on ebay for 40-60 Astartes it probably isn’t going to happen anytime soon.

[@quantig]

I did find it funny when Mini Wargaming (and other channels) went to playing NuHeresy from 9th edition 40k and how much more fun they were obviously having using templates, WS charts, initiative AP values, and universal special rules. Considering that they blew up during 7th edition, it makes sense

[@batondude0818]

I just tried Horus heresy version 2 recently. And as a guy who has never played anything beséis tenth and late 9th. It was very fun and fluffy.

[@davidmesh5491]

I love heresy it feels more deep and strategic.

[@Sommeill]

As a HH1.0, HH2 is a straight downgrade.

[@johntaylor8469]

Every lore video I watch, I become more invested in the world. Every tabletop video I watch, the less I want to play. A shame that a world with such rich lore is dampened by such a convoluted mess of rule books, updates, and price gouging.

[@KamenRiderGreed]

This is why I play Age of Sigmar. For real, though, I understand your gripes. But I bounced hard off of 9th. That was a real mess for me to learn as someone new to 40K coming from AoS. So I appreciate that GW streamlined the rules, it made me interested in giving 40K another chance as an actual game. But I do agree that they went too far with the simplifications. Maybe not to the same extent that you do, but I still *completely* understand your points.

[@thrall6647]

Aos has rules for wizarda and priests. Great models Cool characters Big scary monsters And a lot more

[@Gaz4113]

Part of me wants to go back to 7th edition, hell maybe even 6th, bring back them pie templates and armor /weapon facing. Penatrations and real weapon strength vs toughness. Yeah your basic rifle cant harm most tanks but it makes you actually build lists.

[@AnxiousEducator]

One issue I've had with 10th is games are over by round 2. In 9th games were decided by round 3 usually which also sucked, but in 10th gw promised everything would be less "killy" (nope lmao) -models get taken off the board very quickly. Game is usually decided by turn 2. I think in all like 30ish games of 10th I've played I've never played a game to round 5. I think I've gotten to round 4 like once...

[@Moosenmaster37]

Well I respect your opinion I think that the factions you play and models you like do play a large part in skewing you to think that all factions play the same. It’s all varying degrees of dudes in power armor which yes in 10th tend to play similarly. Marines also as a whole (your most played faction it appears) have been made more homogeneous. Whether this feels this way because the divergent chapters don’t have codexes or GW wanted to limit the amount of special things marines have compared to other factions I’m not super opinionated either way. How you enjoy the game is 100% up to you and playing/collecting an army you don’t enjoy is a fools errand but if you think 40K factions are all very similar feeling right now I’d look towards knights, orks, nids, guard, and sisters of battle. All have different builds and playing with units that have lower armor saves than what you’re used to (nothing in your armies has anything worse than a 3+ save besides some cultists and such) will make you have to play a very different game. Coming from someone that went from Dark Angles to Sisters of Battle now on Orks, all 3 factions have felt very different. But obviously just like my opinion. 🤙

[@alpharius2076]

For those who is lazy: <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="320">5:20</a> There is the main point of the video.

[@nathancawley8759]

WH40K, especially the tabletop, was objectively better in the past. More specifically, in the early days, GW was not as maliciously greedy as they have become lately. 40k also stands as irrefutable proof that the worst thing that can happen to a hobby is for it to go mainstream.

[@FormerGovernmentHuman]

Honestly all I need to be happy is to allow my zerkers to dual wield melee weapons, give me opportunities to charge, engage in glorious blood letting, let angron get atleast one unit kill and I could lose every game for the rest of eternity and be happy.

[@randomnerd5807]

I'm still hoping in vain for a return to form (pre 8th edition) for 40k. They took away all the spice that makes the game fun so they could make it simpler. I understand why they did it, they want to reach a wider audience that could be put off the complexity, but in the process they took away all my favorite parts of the game.

[@Josh-zd9pq]

Saying my thoughts here before watching the video, will come back after. TLDR: 10th feels too samey between factions and armies don’t feel like armies As a kid who started in 7th it was a difficult game to learn but so rewarding. My space wolves felt so unique compared to dads black legion and brothers dark angels. Vehicles were all conquering but needed infantry to support and hold the ground they took. My missile launchers would decimate a cultist squad with the blast template but my grey hunter’s bolters couldn’t even touch the hellbrute bearing down on them. Every unit had a clear role and lists felt coherent with the force organisation. Now in 10th a land raider can be (and has been) gunned down by autogun fire. Space wolves and dark angels feel like different flavours of the same chocolate bar. To make an army you throw together a bunch of units that aren’t coherent with one another and add a character to be your warlord, who can’t go with an aggressor bodyguard despite being logan grimnar. I think this anecdote shows the lack of flavour in 10th. It is a simplified ruleset with as minimal differences between armies as possible which makes it easy to learn but makes all marines, guard and tyranid hordes, orks and world eaters feel the same. Overall 10th feels bland and desaturated compared to older editions.

[@Definitelyarealperson69420]

As a DG DA and Admech player it’s been rough. Basically only play DA at this point and I didn’t even bother to pick up the Admech codex because even if I did I’d have to spend hundreds on models to make it to 2k points. I started at the end of 9th and I’d say that I personally appreciate the dumbing down of the rules as a new player but I hate that DG lost all of their flavor. All in all I’m happy that it’s balanced for the hyper competitive players but I miss the uniqueness my armies used to have as well as “lore-based” rules(disgustingly resilient) I feel that the whole game suffers like a lot of video games suffer with the top percent of players in competitive play force gw to make armies bland and I believe that the pendulum will swing back the other way it will just take time. (Please excuse my terrible sentence structure I am horrible at English)

[@themaniacgaming7343]

Ive moved over to AOS. The AOS models look dope and the maggotkin are SO MUCH FUN TO PAINT!!

[@AltoStratusX1]

I'm not gonna argue 10th is great and without issues. I appreciate the take so here's mine for the algorithm. Most of your problems.....are endemic to pretty much every previous edition. For example- greywashing/exploits and the illusion of choice. 9th edition had a massive amount of choices for each faction. I play orks. You could run several clans and it would change up your playstyle a bit for sure. But Goffs was just SO GOOD all around you would be deliberately putting yourself at a disadvantage by using any other subfaction rules. Same with every faction having 3 pages of Stratagems. You only got 12 or so cp...then less as the edition went on. People aren't gonna choose anything but 3 or 4 strategems repeatedly. Exploits? You literally mentioned being sad you can't use the apothecary to give your terminators a 6 fnp and heal aura anymore. That's kind of a meta game move that you are complaining about with the Khal complaint. I also disagree about the greywashing. The factions without codexes yet are a little bland....cuz they don't have codexes yet. Space marines, of which you have 3 armies? Have 12 (including divergent chapters) detachments with vastly different buffs and playstyles. Like a phobos heavy movement shenanigan shooting Vanguard detachment is gonna be massively different then a Tank heavy Ironstorm detachment. You can even give your terminators that apothecary buff but better 5 fnp unit if you ran the black templars detachment. I feel like if you don't wanna play competitive and flavor comes over balence....well you can find 7/8/9th edition rules on wahapedia. If you are just playing a for fun game anyways for flavor why use 10th rules anyways? Why not house rule your apothecary attached to the terminators?Then see why they didn't do that when buddy attaches a painboy 5fnp to his MegaNobz etc. I feel like Votann and the DeathGuard getting the shaft turned you off early and you forgot that 9th was kinda the same. Poor Guard had rules for like 3 months before 10th. That's a GW issue not an edition issue imo.

[@unlimitedpanda5433]

i miss the psychic phase, i loved being able to pingpong my buffs through my overlapping synapse bubble to buff a unit on the other side of the board, because i was careful in my movement phase so as much as possible was in synapse range. oh? you went after my exocrine sitting in my backline? Hive Tyrant on the frontline! delete them with MW via linked synapse range! Now Synapse is useless outside of battleshock (tbh if a gaunt squad gets battleshocked they die next turn) and buffing some strategems

[@bobcatmania]

I feel like younger D&D players are acting the same way Like it's a video game rather than a role playing game

[@eaglesfly5236]

10th is watching Ork player roll 400 shooting dice, for no reason.

[@barlotardy]

I came on board in 2nd edition; Love the lore, love painting and kitbashing. I have never actually played a single game of 40k.

[@weaponizedwinnebago]

Hell yeah brother! Been in this hobby since 98, never even tried to play the game. But this year im going to learn!

[@quinnamations9715]

Now, I’ve never played a game of 40K period, and am in the process of building up an army so I can actually play and form my own opinion. Now my problem with this edition is really specific to Space Marine players, but when the edition first started, we got the Datasheets and found that most, if not all of the firstborn kits were seemingly safe, and as someone who was hoping to build up a primarily firstborn army, I felt I had the go ahead… UNTIL THEY THREW 14 UNITS INTO LEGENDS! INCLUDING A UNIT I HAD PURCHASED NOT EVEN A FEW MONTHS PRIOR! So, I naturally had to react to this by procuring what marines I could, mainly the Assault Marines. Now, some folks will say that Space Marines have too many units and rules bloat, and I agree. However, I don’t think the solution is to effectively yeet an entire range’s worth of units that a good chunk of the player base thought were tournament legal into legends without warning. Instead, GW could’ve just consolidated all the individual generic character sheets into a few categories and just gave them wargear options. But they didn’t. And that’s the problem. And the fact they sprung this on us seemingly without warning, much like what happened to Chaos Marines, and Necrons more recently is just fucked. *sighs* Rant over.

[@Jessie_Helms]

So as someone who just entered at the start of 10th and only has 1 full strength army (couple thousand points of marines)… I was SUPER relieved when someone told me it didn’t matter which bolsters I put on my Intercessors. I was anxiously comparing heavy to the sniper-y to normal, and then when I’d ordered some already painted ones from EBay and someone said I was running the wrong bolsters for them and slightly panicked before someone else told me I didn’t have to worry about that anymore. It was a huge relief. And I’m not new to table top games. I’ve been playing board games my whole life and I’ve been a Dungeon Master since 2021, along with having played Pathfinder 2e. I’ve been _very_ fortunate to have my local Warhammer store be full of some of the nicest, most accepting, happy to teach folks I’ve ever met. And it still took me a long time to get comfortable with my army. It always sucks when something you’ve spent a LOT of time learning the jank and cheese about gets simplified, but that simplification does make it much, much easier for people to get into the hobby. I’d have never tried DMing if my exposure was to, say, Pathfinder 1e rather than D&D 5e, for example. Even though I now love Pathfinder. -- **ALL** of that said, I very much agree about characters. I’d _love_ to run 6 Aggressors, a Captain, and Apothecary for example.

[@bonitabromeliads]

How does raising prices and double paywalling the rules make it easier to get into?

[@Secretgeek2012]

It was always my worry, when it became clear what kind of game 10th was going to be, that all personality and individuality was going to be wiped from the factions. As a SW player, it has been pretty depressing to see that I was right. Not looking forward to our Codex.

[@Secretgeek2012]

Just in time for 11th edition, no doubt. 😕

[@pt1457]

I've been enjoying 10th in short bursts. Crusade is very fun and adds more depth. Definitely look into it if you want a reason to like 40k again. I'm going to play a vanilla 10th game next week to see if this is the case after playing so much crusade and Horus Heresy. Great to hear you're dusting off your heresy stuff. I can't remember, have you done an army showcase?

[@FreakyGremlinDK]

Can we talk about how they removed the psychic phase and oversimplified almost every unit?

[@theRemyLuna]

This is something I've noticed as well. I switched over to One Page Rules, because it was a cleaner system in my opinion. But both OPR and 10th feel like they have watered down all the factions. They all feel so similar, and I miss the whole point in having factions in the first place. Long story short I'm working on my own TTwargame. With the intent to make it accessible but seeking to keep factions unique and fun. Love your content keep it up.

[@Sorain1]

It's funny, OPR is so massively stripped down... and 10th manages to hit that sour spot right where it strips away so much it hurts and not enough to reach OPR's 'so simple/balanced its worth it' spot.

[@theRemyLuna]

@@Sorain1 to me OPR strips down most of 40k's system that is just overly tedious and unnecessary. For instance roll to hit, THEN roll to wound. I just hit you, why am I rolling to "hit" you a second time. Your save roll should cover whether or not it wounded your unit. Lol But both have stripped out things that to me should have been left in. If we take away things that make a faction unique and often the reason why people play them, that ruins the game for many. I love the 40k IP, but GW is something else when it comes to understanding how to balance and updating.

[@KingBobbito]

@@theRemyLuna I'm the opposite and think OPR has stripped too much, I don't think a bolter should be as good at killing custodes as it is at killing a baneblade, the wound roll serves a purpose

[@SrenHolm-k3o]

No psychic phase" 3 words have rarely doomed an edition as much as these.

[@ZugZug948]

You should give Horus Heresy a try! First of all its a narrative based game not designed around competitive and the rules reflect that in being more fluffy. Templates, more customizable army choices and special vehicle rules. I heard its a lot like 8th edition 40k, but can't realy say because I never played it. I also like that you have reactions that you play in your opponents turn so you have something to do and think about when its not your turn. I mainly play 30k now and it made me also appreciate 40k as something more diffrent and a more streamlined take on warhammer.

[@MrBoodaddy123]

There's no crunch to the list building anymore, either. As someone trying to return to the hobby after playing weekly during the entire time during 8th we got power level as the way to build armies disguised as points. I no longer have to sacrifice a taking an extra unit cause I wanted a plasma gun for a squad its all free and no reason not to put every optional optimized war gear on.

[@alexdelarosa6770]

10th ed feels more like a board game than a war game, im still playing 40k somewhat but i am prolly gonna shift my focus to The Old World and 30k

[@Axiom_Dominus]

Death Guard Nurgle Deamon allies don't spread contagions let that sink in.

[@DaKdawg]

I left playing in 7th. I still painted and did hobby ideas, but I've seen the degradation as you've explained. I was very excited to have plastic sisters, but they're mostly unpainted, because it went from soup to no soup, to not having a full list out till 9th and now you don't need to worry because you can soup but there's no special rules and it just feels like whatever they release gets hindered by their business practices. It's not even about the game anymore, because they cater to the tournament scene because of the money. Like, I can't imagine playing Legions of the Damned only to have that entire army list/faction be wiped out. I mean, we saw them wash out completely the imperial guard to where if you play them it's only going to be cadians...like...you didn't need to do that. I agree, I miss old warhammer 40k. Had more flavor, took its time in building the game. This streamlined stuff is going to kill the hobby for GW. I'm going to go down the nostalgic rabbit hole you recommended, but there's my 2 cents.

[@KevenRand]

10 th edition got me back into 40k... and it just keeps getting better the longer it goes on. to be fair almost every edition has nearly the same complaints and severe balance issues but it usually gets better over time

[@tedtarrant7375]

If you want a game that is fun and silly, with some preety fun lore, try turnip 28, ive had great fun doing it, playing and building. It really filled the hole of 10th

[@Anathema0420]

Or try Necromunda, legions Imperialis (epic 2.0) or horus heresy 2.0.

[@minihali]

I have been lurking for quite a while, and I'll probably get into 40K with 10th, splitting a leviathan box with a friend. And it'll undoubtedly be a lot of fun to do crusade games. My experience is that it is generally who you play with, rather than what you play that determines if you'll have fun or not.

[@gergelyosztrogonacz9464]

10th ed. is so bland, you put it perfect. I especially dislike SM detachment rules, since they all feel very basic and universal, I liked the 8th/9th ed. approach of the chapters getting their rule and then successors can choose much more. Also GW NEEDS TO BRING BACK THE RULES FOR THE CRIMSON FISTS

[@TheKrazy7]

Feels like the dow3 of tabletop everything is so samey with none of the spice that made armies cool and unique. Takes so much creativity away from the army builder and puts it on rails instead of

[@Tyke-Myson]

As a newbie whi started in Arks of Omen, 10th has been kind of a godsend for actually learning how to play the game. I think as a teaching tool, it's incredible, and that'd probably what it was intended to be. I'm interested, now that I'm more experienced, in going back and trying 9th again with all its fluff, but I can't deny that 10th has been very good to me.

[@NewtypeFarseer]

hot take: removing Force Organiztion Chart was a mistake. Going up against an army where all the Greater Daemon is on the board is not fun

[@platypus_slayer1]

I am an old, increasingly old, grognard who's played knife eared phallic shaped headed elves since 2nd ed. While everyone eye rolling when I unpack my saim hann or anything eldar related in 10th, its a much more clean game. While I still think 3-4th editions had the best mix of fluff and crunch and practicality, 10th while unbalanced as hell at launch is again, allowing me and my friends play relatively quick engaging games that move. List theorizing has suffered a bit, but I can swap between the craftworlds themeatically without much issue to the table. I think 7-9th became to bloated and we spent more time reading than playing, especially all the various campgain/errata/one off rules. I'm happy they toned it back down to "pick a few weapons and 1 rule per a squad." While GW is slowly back to price gouging it seems, the battleforces and flexible rule making makes it easier for us to get people into the plastic crack addiction. P.S.- your white scar video plus HH books has helped me pick yet another bike faction, and after painting yellow white cant be that hard right ?(famous last words I know.) Keep them comming!😁

[@DefinatelynotMt.Rainier]

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the loss of flavor. My Space Wolves dreadnoughts feel the exact same as my Salamanders dreadnoughts. On a related note, my heart goes out to the White Scars players whose detachment might as well just been made for Space Wolves instead.

[@dabba_dabba]

I suggest to play older editions of 40k or alternative rules such as OPR. Better yet, I'd love to see the fandom come up with their own rules. Nothing is stopping us from doing so Edit: I think I should say that opr is a simple game but in my experience it's easy to learn yet hard to master. The only one-sided battles that i have witnessed is due to skill difference and not so much army or list building but of course it definitely has a factor. Additionally, the local group in my city and in two cities nearby are forming additional rules to make it more in-depth and competitive

[@agimb2381]

Recommending one page rules is counter intuitive if the main blame he has is “lack of flavor” and OPR is extremely bland.

[@dabba_dabba]

@@agimb2381 Fair point. So I suggest finding other alternatives. However, I'll add if some reading this wants to try OPR the games are quick enough that you can play 2-3 games in the timespan of one game of 40k. So that may be something people like. You can also add custom rules for the overall game format for more a more enhanced experience. We have a local group doing so and I gatta say I'm having a lot more fun with what they are doing. I hope this helps

[@agimb2381]

@@dabba_dabba my hot take is you one page rules advocates are why 10th is so bad soooo I don’t really care. Honestly, I feel like everyone’s complaints would be eliminated if they went to play Horus heresy

[@dabba_dabba]

@@agimb2381 I agree with what you say about Horus Heresy

[@khorneflakes4446]

Some good fan made editions that harken back to the 5th ed era are 41st millennium edition 40k and The Long War.

[@christopheraaron1255]

2nd edition had DGs with +1 Toughness, and plagues knives/swords did insta wounds/kills. The same was true for 3rd. 3.5/4th ed was the first time they got FNP from memory. It's difficult to remember because KHORNE had FNP.

[@arizonaicesuntea9922]

All Combie weapons have the same stats regardless of whether you give your mini a combi weapon or a combi plasma. Like, WHY? just, why? Also, I play guard, and they feel pretty different than space marines.

[@Calvin_Coolage]

Weirdly this feels like one of the only weapons designed around the free wargear system, since you can model whichever combi-weapon you think looks coolest and does have a good profile that's competitive with the alternatives.

[@Ropsuguy]

The guy they forced at gunpoint to make the index rules for Tau really really hated drones. Just look at the tactical drone squad price. It was one of the only units to not get a point decrease as well.

[@davidevansolsen8770]

This edition is probably the first one I've just said nope on. I've played 8th and 9th, and they definitely had their issues. But they had flavor and so many fun aspects to them it made it great. We had a great 40k community in our area and the sad thing is ... its like full on dead. With only a couple people still playing out a group of 20 to 30. Everyone has moved to sigmar, heresy or imperialis. It reallh sucks but thats the level of vitriol towards 10th. Its 9th without the fun because every game ive played win or lose just feels boring and math hammery. No soul no anything just rules that don't help anyone. I would also definitely agree that characters don't feel right at all. If they wanted to do it that way, they should have gone for the heresy way. Characters join units but not based on specific units, and it's how you want to play.I had so many factions in 9th with bad rules but they still felt like themselves.

[@KingBobbito]

I understand *why* they made character limits on units. Towards the end of 7th it became really common to run "deathstars", putting a bunch of characters in a single squad that would make it genuinely indestructible. Dark angels with 3 biker librarians in a command squad of black knights: only able to be hit on 6s, untargetable by blast and torrent weapons, a rerollable 2+ cover save (this essentially counted as an invuln against ranged), a 5+ FNP, and I can't remember but the apothecary might have been able to bring back models. The black knights were more likely to kill themselves with their own plasma guns overheating than they were to be killed by any weapon in the game. I can only assume that preventing deathstars was the intended reason for the limitations, but their solution was waaaaaay too heavy handed.

[@Blasterpunk]

First list building is ass. It's like they came up with the idea to build lists that way using power level, everyone rejected it, and GW said "oh! You don't like power levels? Well fuck you! You play the game how we like, you vill eat zee power level und you vill like it!" Second they made a bunch of units legends, like specifically SM and CSM forgeworld units. Now I'm sitting here with several $200-$300 fucking paperweights Third they still haven't brought back vehicle facing

[@tylershiver3078]

“Every faction plays similar” Proceeds to play 4 factions of heavily armored dudes of varying height.

[@patliao556]

It's not on the player to somehow divine that the game developer did or didn't make four armored dude factions all feel exactly the same. If a designer creates four factions, it's on them to make them feel different, because they're the fucking designer. Blaming the player is absurd.

[@ValentinBaca]

“Every army is the same” Followed by an example of how DA have a unit specific to their chapter but that he wants 😢

[@Slightchub9340]

My thoughts exactly. Maybe try armies that are actually different? Try Eldar, Dark Eldar (don't try Dark Eldar), Tyranids, Demons, IG, T'au, Knights. Stop playing THE SAME ARMY WITH DIFFERENT NAMES.

[@Lorrins]

I got in to tabletop this edition and hearing what the previous editions brought about does make me hope for a "return to form". Maybe they can tone the bland back once us newbies have acclimated to this set of rules because I'd certainly like some more depth.

[@datsolis]

"All these armies play the same" said the man playing space marines, space marines, space marines, evil space marines, evil space marines, and short space marines with tokens

[@Ang3lUki]

This is hilarious, but this misses the point he's making so badly its self-defeating. A huge number of the factions are based off space marines, there's no avoiding that, it's a common complaint, but making them more similar just makes that common complaint even more valid, and it's not healthy for the game.

[@11AleZZ]

Yeah well now playing Dark Angels it's Exactly like play Blood Angels, or CSMs or Necrons or Tyranids or LoV, you need a couple of tanks, a couple of range units and a pair of CC unit, to capture objectives/screen your tanks

[@chitterlingsrtasty]

I was just trying to get back into 40k and i noticed right away things have been dumbed down severely. It’s giving me pause.

[@lightbower5826]

Honestly as someone who started collecting as 9th came to an end I had NO idea how to even expand my collection because simple army-building seemed waaay to overwhleming to me (maybe I´m just dumb) and the "everything is so similar" aspect is actually what I was relieved about in 10th. It didn´t matter that much if I only had experience with Bloodangles from a friend and am collecting Orks because I can much better transfer my learned things over.

[@Luke01730]

Holy shit, i was not expecting to hear my favourite OMORI song at the end of a 40k rant video! You have good taste in music ^w^