My rant on Season 4 Mythic+ Pugging so far...

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[@heythereguysitsMetro]

kzbin.info/door/vW0FHHGggu18t79j4bwIaw If you guys aren't already, I would greatly appreciate you guys subscribing to my second channel so we can get it partnered!

[@CaledonianCraft]

Having bad players in a +5 this season is pretty much exactly the same as having bad players in a +14/15 this season (minus an affix). I must admit I was super hyped for this season but its less than a week done and I am just not feeling it and I don't know why.

[@DaveTheeMan-wj2nk]

It's because the dungeons are too hard. There are too many mechanics, boss's and ads. Mobs hit really, really hard. They hit so hard that you would think it's fortified.

[@stuff4812]

its because DF dungeons are all either bad or just meh. too many mechanics on the mobs, and bosses are rough. just a ton of annoying things

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I think its a big psychological thing tbh. It feels really bad to fail a single digit key even when we know what it really is.

[@ludekcortex]

Most problems I had this week came mostly from people not aware of the dungeon level changes. Like joining a group for some +2-3 seeing half of it had ilvl 450-460, while being not bothered about it because "it's just +3, we were doing +15 last season with that ilvl".

[@kingtut8367]

Facts

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

If you are running into that sort of thing, please consider recording them and send the funny stuff in! That's exactly what I would want to review. I'm sure its a total mess at that level.

[@skylarius3757]

@@heythereguysitsMetro I regret not recording my gunshot boss encounter. I didn't realise that it was possible for the boss to knock the tank off the platform. xD

[@evolburd5768]

it feels like this season they tried to make everyone happy but failed to make anyone happy. the casuals are all crying about it being too hard and the sweats are all crying that everyone sucks at the game.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Its good for the game in the long run. The "casuals" will adjust and find a new baseline, and that will translate towards a better playerpool down the road. I'm certainly not saying they are too hard. Just frustrated that players are trying to do 10s without any actual knowledge of the dungeons now. That will even out with time though for sure.

[@evolburd5768]

@heythereguysitsMetro the question is will it result in a larger player pool or a smaller one. Thats my only fear is that its driving people away rather than bringing them up

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@evolburd5768 It will result in a smaller player pool, and that's good because the people that it will drive off are the ones not interesting in putting the work in to improve and learn. Last season was a total mess because of how easy it was to get carried to higher keys, and how easy the low ones were to afk in.

[@LimaAlphaBR]

Well, I love it the way it is right now. Mythic dungeons should be hard thus, m+ dungeons, should be harder. Since BfA last season there are people just steamrolling their way to +20, without knowing who and when to interrupt, in a pull. For the first time in years I'm seing people making mistakes and being punished for it. No "weak healer" or "dumb tank". If you don't do mechanics correctly, there's nothing you healer can do about it because you are dead. It's perfectly balanced, IMHO. On the other hand, healer and tank became even more unforgiven roles, since now your mistakes are more visible. Missed a defensive? BANG, dead. Missed a ramp time? BANG, you wiped the group. It's just the first week, they'll probably do some tunning when pandamonium arrives. People need to chill.

[@sharanv9182]

@@heythereguysitsMetro preach this bro. 100%. too many players joining 18+ doing 50k dps having no clue what to do

[@bola31]

I know a lot of people hated it.. but I really miss the MoP Proving Grounds requirements to be able to que into content. people who couldnt complete gold were prevent from heroic content which is kind of gate keeping but when you run into people who dont know basic class play it makes me want that to be a thing again...

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I REALLY like that idea returning here honestly.

[@MostlyFish21]

Damn that sounds like a good idea

[@Telados]

You had to do silver for heroics

[@williamgraham5924]

No. It needs to come back. It’s annoying having time wasted because others don’t won’t to learn keys.

[@thomasschopflin6317]

One thing I noted in general: The number of mandatory kicks and stops has increased dramatically compared to S3, and although we had a tyrannical week it felt like some of the trashmobs were either on roids or leftovers from fortified ;) Those guys were SLAPPING. I'm more than a little bit worried about the "real" fortified after the reset... Looks like I have to step up my game quite a bit compared to last season.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Hmm not sure I agree. Season three was famous for chain kicks in multiple dungeons. Everbloom and throne were wild and why demon hunter was so securely needed. Only dungeon it's bad in now is one part of nokhud and small parts of ruby imo. Everything else is just one kick needed that any one player can get.

[@Legionthecomrade]

I ended up getting stuck in +2 Algethar hell because people just go in with brains off. People are treating these like they are +2 from last season on top of people not knowing any of the mechanics or knowing how to play their class. I might just stick with playing with friends. It really feels like you have to tell people to try.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

If you are struggling like that, record them and send in the funny stuff! That's exactly what I want to see this time around.

[@Tonychokolony]

Hey, i understand that people not knowing the dungeon can drive you mad sometimes. But there´s also peple like me who really try their best, read guides etc. on bosses and still won´t get invited because of "too low myth score". I mean everybody has to start somewhere...

[@theoriginalzinng]

There is a whole list of reasons why I shut off my sub renewal and haven't logged in for well over a month but what you describe is upwards to the top of the list. Pugging has been working more and more towards a "this isn't my problem" attitude that drove me away before the end of S3. People coming back I assumed wouldn't actually do any research towards the dungeons which is ok in low keys. However, the people who only read wowhead to copy paste a spec unfortunately don't read the news. They probably have no idea that a 2 now is not what a 2 was before and are confused why its so much more difficult than it was in S3 and before. The barrier to entry was essentially lowered along with the number of the key in people's minds and I wasn't planning on being around to see it work out. It's unfortunate because I still feel the game itself is in a very good state with by far the worst state the community has been in the 20 years of the game's existence. TBD if TWW has what it would take for me to come back but I'm thinking solo content and delves will be the only thing that would save it for me and that's a stretch sadly. It's been a good run WoW

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Game is amazing, community is awful. But sadly everyone who feels like that who quits is why its so bad. The leavers and complainers become a higher percentage of the population every time some one who might push back on them gives up. Its bad all around.

[@theoriginalzinng]

@@heythereguysitsMetro yep i just ran out of push. wish i had it in me still but its time for a break. sometimes you just gotta step away you know

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@theoriginalzinng oh ya, certainly can't blame ya. Hope to still see you around!

[@merenwen_gaming]

I recorded an AV+7 pug where we wiped at the first boss twice but instead of disbanding we decided to give it a shot. Not only we timed it but we even spared something like 3 minutes off the timer. This tells that you should never leave just for one mistake.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Yup, timers are STILL super easy atm. People need to learn bosses anyway.

[@user-sc3gv9lu4n]

I'm a MW main who did a +12 (+22 in S3) NO @ 498 ilv in a coordinated group in discord, then I go into group finder, get a pug of seemingly good players, and get SLAPPED in a +10 HOI. Now, I realize you might think I was carried in the coordinated group, but what I'd like to point out is that the pug environment is just no good this season. There's so many kicks, stops, critical points to use defensives, that it just isn't feasible to not have a coordinated group in anything above a +10. I'd love to see some dungeon nerfs to make pugging more applicable since I do it most of the time myself and the coordinated group was a rare treat.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, sadly pugging gets worse and worse each season. But I endure!

[@flashyhooves1710]

It is just better to actually have the learning keys available. It doesn't hurt me to play on +12 instead of right now +2. The lower keys gave people (and myself on new specs/roles) an entrance level to start learning the dungeons and their new spec. People who before started on +2 now also start on +2.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

You are saying you think it was better before? No shot, I HEAVILY disagree with that. The people trying to start on a 2 now will get mowed down and they will be forced to learn, and that is why this needed to happen. Those 2-12ish keys last season were soooo easy all they were doing was tricking people into thinking they were actually doing something, then they would get to the higher up keys and get flamed and cause a big fight every key. I reviewed quite a few of those situations.

[@flashyhooves1710]

@@heythereguysitsMetro They were probably easy for you, but i have done a lot of those keys on new roles and specs i wanted to play. And it is very humbling never ever dps'ed as a main healer timing 20's season in season out seeing i am not good enough of a dps for a +6. Learn more and practise more :) Right now i tried to tank but i am not good enough for a M0 on 481 brewmaster. I just get full destroyed. It is too hard to learn. There need to be something in between of M0 (without mechanics) and M+10 to slowly build it up. You want people to learn but the learning grounds are removed.

[@stevenfairclough5745]

@@flashyhooves1710well now you can run through heroics to learn, then move to Mythic, then to keys. It’s a natural progression.

[@Dea7hWarran7]

@@flashyhooves1710I feel like you’re missing the point though. Those “learning” keys were keys where people weren’t learning - they were just being carried through because of people who DID know and do mechanics, in addition to playing their spec well.

[@skylarius3757]

With +2 keys in season 3 and before, people would always invite over geared players and the keys would upgrade +3. People who may actually needed the gear from a 2 would always be passed over in favour of higher geared players and be carried.

[@Hadesxo027]

Honestly I don't know what to do. Been a 3.3-3.5k player myself but unfortunately - due to personal reasons of my friends - again couldn't start with a premade. Currently sitting at 2950 which is very good all things considered, but the amount of clueless, dumb and unskilled people I see clearing much higher content and then not inviting me is just insane. 3.4k season 3 DPS players who stand in every single possible sh#t, frontals, not interrupting, not cc-ing. Technically they are all in for a free boost. I honestly dont understand them. When I went to raiding the first time on a specific boss someone explained to me 1x very briefly what to do and I got it. But even without knowing "what hurts", you see something casting? - interrupt it man. Dont stand in frontal ever, honestly you even make more dmg if you stand behind mobs. DBM is literally telling you if something needs to be CC-d, press your buttons ffs. You see a swirly on the ground? When was the first time a swirly meant something "good for you"? So like even without literally any clue you can "guess" things, but apparently not those 3.4-3.5k dps players who suck at literally everything. 3.5k season 3 tanks who prove the theory of clueless rerollers who either got lucky or were in high demand but in fact are crap. Tank jumps into a pack and dies in 1 secs. At least 20 keys this week I saved by 1. offhealing tank 2. using all utilities on tank 3. kiting when tank died like a potato. with 3.5k score you should really know your stupid toolset and how squishy you are. 3.2-3.5k season 3 healers who "re-realize" every stupid run that something hurts. I call it "warmup death", because even if they did the same key 5x in a row they would not focus on sh#t. Brackenhide first boss is a great example. the first stabs / bleed happens always at the same time. No rng, no anything. But these morons literally need to let someone die because "uh-oh I cannot count to 5-6 seconds" and "I dont know when the big damage is incoming". It is not RNG, its constant, yet people fail in it all the time. why? This whole "I want the highest people, preferably 500 more score than I have" is getting really out of control. Blizzard should really do something about it. Like idk, you cannot jump multiple levels , you need to do keystone levels 1 by one. I dont want to boost people or explain mechanics on a damn 14 key ffs. How stupid that is? When I do my own keys 1. only actual monkeys sign up 2. people who are so much below my level (meaning they havent even cleared the target level - 1) when I sign for keys I'm 90% of the case higher than keyowners by 300. Why is this a norm? I guess I'm just frustrated to meet dumb, but apparently successfully boosted / carried people all the time.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Only thing I can say is, welcome to pugging! You are seeing what I have been seeing since Legion. The community is lazy, entitled, and selfish. Those of us frustrated by it can only act to help clean it up, whatever way you see best. But it takes all of us to do it, otherwise those lazy, entitled, and selfish become more and more the majority.

[@Hadesxo027]

@@heythereguysitsMetro You know I just don't get it. Carry can work if one person is half-@ssing the key (meaning either doesn't do CC-s , interrupts or mechanics), but each season I'm starting to feel that more and more people want to get half-@ss participation and still hope for success. I guess that's the reason why they want always the highest people, but I can tell you 14 / 24 keys today I had almost full groups half-@ssing keys. DPS keeps interrupt on CD, doesn't use defensives, etc. Imagine 3.4k healer who "timed" 12 AV going to 14 AV and dying on almost every trash pack and last bosses. Healer (Disc) was casting and "didn't see the bolstered frogs jumping on them". On last boss healer literally stood still on the arcane blobs. Then saying " I cannot heal this, this is 2 million dmg", and he didn't understand that he doesnt need to soak it or anything he is supposed to move away. But just kept going, then 2 dps had enough and left the key because they didn't want to boost this guy. But these things are happening so often that I'm starting to feel my daily success rate has slowed down tremendously. I only timed 5 keys / 24 today and I'm not even counting the "disbanded after 1 pull" ones. Every single key I'm the highest interrupter (usually 40++) as DPS, middle pack CC-er (I'm ret right now), one of the highest offhealer, either first by a lot or barely 2nd in DPS. But I do have issues when I see an enhancement shaman doesnt use Cap totem nor interrupt, a rogue cc-s 1x whole run interrupts 3x / run, etc. I cannot help it, they make me angry. Unfortunately I get you, this is my 8th season doing high M+ and its really getting old and you are right, they behave like big entitled chhildren who don't want to put into any effort but want results still. I dont see how can we clean it up at this point. I'm having some blacklist where I'm putting people with their alts and mains and explanation but the only thing it gives me the ability to avoid completely dumb people but essentially it wont resolve the issue we are facing. Do you think this week its better? Do you feel that US players are "more" prone to improve?

[@snowballs2023]

I'm no class expert but I never see warlocks interrupt.

[@systematicdecay82]

All in all these dungeons aren't too horrible. I am doing 9s to 10s today, and I am doing all of these dungeons for the first time having just started in season 3. You are correct in the player base that has played these dungeons in season one, and still has no clue on even the most simple mechanics is brutal. I've been called a carry on a few runs because the players don't know the mechanics of bosses and argue their way is right when I have literally looked up every dungeons guide, and know they are wrong. I am having a blast regardless though 😃

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Its a great dungeon pool for sure. Glad you are having fun!

[@Myrdral1]

One of the things I heard on another Tank focused channel was, how many people just don't know how or what to interrupt because they are used to being carried by paladin or VDH where they can handle all the important casts themselves.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I think that was probably true in season three. But the season 1 and 2 dungeons didn't feature that sort of thing so these guys should have seen what they needed while preparing.

[@normannseils3936]

No it’s getting worse, people start to not skill their interrupts and ccs because they are used to VDH. The problem with that specc goes much deeper than just being an overpowered tank (in terms of dmg and defensives)

[@peterj.2114]

I think this season is plagued by people just randomly upgrading keys to the equivalent of +15/17/18 from last season without much effort. The junkyard that was the 9-11 range is now gone and the whole thing just shifted up in requirements to adjust for the sheer stupidity of people entering those higher keys now. I've seen more gatekeeping this season than s1-3 for sure.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya it's mostly just people not prepared for the difficulty that awaits. It's getting better every day

[@gxxkc8074]

I think the struggles you are feeling is due to BDK weakness to big hits without rune tap, i did some 10's on VDH and tank breakers barely touch me. theres something happening

[@doodliedie]

10's feel super easy on my bdk while playing super offensive trinkets and talents, im seeing a lot of my tank friends die on dungeons that never hurt me

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Its more just that I'm surprised by it. Tyrannical week used to be so easymode haha. Never had to run rune tap before, ya know?

[@gxxkc8074]

@heythereguysitsMetro I'm not saying it's a walk in the park bit if u have a mini cd for each tank buster it seemed easy bit if u were naked uhoh

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@gxxkc8074 Well I think I did say that in the video. Its not like I flat out run out of CDs. I am just not used to NEEDING a cd for every single mechanic. I'm able to deal with it, just was surprised is all. The last one on Azureblade was the most shocking though, because I lived every other one prior to that.

[@gxxkc8074]

@heythereguysitsMetro yea I'm unsure the azure blade didn't seem to hurt it's the less often tank hits. My demonspikes give me like a 52%+17% avoidance so if they're fast hitting and softer it's fine. But the big hits need something real. I'm sure it's all gear honestly, I'll gain about 300k hp on Tuesday and be near 2.2 mil hp so it's really scaling

[@lampshades5436]

This season has been brutal so far in pugging. Upgrading and getting gear will help but there is clearly a skill issue with this season. Huge percentage of these players have no business doing any keys and should stick to M0. I have been doing some 8's with dps players doing 150k overall, dying constantly, tanks kiting with their backs to the mobs so they get 1 shotted and healers who cant keep the groups topped off. I do agree I think the lower key levels makes people think its easier. "Oh its only a +6 or its only a +8" meanwhile the difficulty is very high compared to s3.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya I think a BIG part of it is purely psychological.

[@charred6683]

I've had some WILD differences between good keys and bad keys so far. Literally goes from dumb tank getting exploded in a simple pull, or a tank grabbing 4 packs and not needing heals. Same class, similar gear lvl, all around the 4-5 keys, I was playing my alt resto shammy. There's people used to playing dungeons, and there's the people who hate and suck at dungeons they just want their loot, and by want I mean they want it to be given to them by other players. I didn't expect the difference to be this wild in such low keys.

[@TheJackCoffee]

this is why you stop looking at iliv when inviting people( unless ofc they naked and start watch for rio

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, the changes to the key levels obviously are catching some people by surprise. Lots of players simply not qualified for the keys they are trying to do.

[@Telados]

I've seen a 495 prot pala explode in a +4 only pulling 3 mobs

[@_Jachel]

I did my first mythic keystone earlier today a +2 Neltharus, everything was going 100% smooth and then on the blacksmith boss apparently the healer monk misused roll and ran into the boss pulling it during a trash pull, the tank we had just went absolute crazy mode and kept typing during the mechs, died and when we recovered it ended up the healer and tank just bickering and ending in a disband, all I could think of is how much time I just spend and say "this game sucks". Thoughts on accountability measures like locking players from entering instances if they leave a key? On another note after doing a lot of +0 even players with full myth track gear from season 3 had no idea what they were doing in some of these dungeons, not sure if I had new players or what, I do think however since the mechanics can actually kill you if you mess up a mythic0 players will have to learn, I do love just pumping on the trash when there are no annoying affixes going on and they actually last during my entire offensive cd duration.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Those are the ones you wanna record and send in. In terms of disband stuff, something needs to change for sure but I don't see a punishment ever being there unless they change the way forming groups works. There typically needs to be rules for group forming for there to also be rules for groups ending in this game.

[@WorstYTChannel]

About rotating dungeons: i feel like it puts a lot more burden on the tank player early on in the season. We have to route out the dungeons know what every mob and boss does or the key would go nowhere so it really compounds the difficulty for tanks on a new season especially soul crushing when you put in all the effort and random dps players die to first obvious telegraphed mechanic. About the gearing and dungeon scaling: right now we sitting around 480-490s but as season goes on the hero/myth gear is in the 520 range and by week 3 people will have their new tier sets the +8-10 mark will become a roflstomp soon but for higher keys we just have to wait and see i guess. So far i am enjoying the season as someone who only came back to dragonflight season 2 seeing the season 1 dungeons has been fun.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Totally agreed.

[@saenct]

so if i interpret the numbers it seems that the failure rate is higher correct? maybe because everyone was expecting smooth keys because they had been around in s1/s2 and when it didnt go as planned people would quit quicker? idk if that would be correct but if it is i assume blizz should not bring all expansions dungeons back at s4 to prevent this behavior

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, basically my failure stats are the same as my week 1 from season 3, which had 3 rotations. The literal first week is usually tremendously successful compared to the rest. This time around, not even close. Blizzard should never rotation dungeons at all in my eyes, so that's where I stand on that.

[@saenct]

dont know if i am a fan of the rotation either. what bothers me is that looking back, in previous expansions i could see my progress. first season maybe 20s, last season up to 26s for example. in dragonflight it was roughly the same keylvl across the board and it just didnt...feel like i was progressing. there was no "well i learned that this pull is not a good idea and because of that i can now lead the grp to victory"...idk rip s4 for me, see you all in the war within :D

[@kopitarrules]

I am actually quite enjoying s4, Got all dungeons upgraded at an 8 which I NEVER could have believed I would be able to do in week one of a season before. Got to admit my disband percentage is around 27% which saddens me quite a bit. (In s2 and s3 My highest upgrade was a 16 in s1 it was a 7 for perspective.) So in a way it has been easier for sure than previous seasons, even the previous "easiest to progress" season, s3. I DO think part of that is having done the dungeons before. I did my research and got as many reps as I could on the ptr but it still took a few runs for stuff to come back to me and I am still learning new stuff (especially about the s1 dungeons NO and AA which I could easily see getting nerfed a bit). So from my perspective i am definitely benefiting from having a repeat dungeon pool. I will say, though, that I do kind of like the rotation, having things be limited time, and new experiences every six months feels good to me, but I do get how it can feel like kind of a bait and switch after dungeons remainsing much the same through the majority of our WoW carreers. Even just looking at competative dungeons from MoP on it was that way for almost 10 full years before SLs s4 changed the game. I do think the way they did the rotation in DF is a nice balance to both sides though with the full rack coming back for s4. My only worry becomes that with content supposedly coming faster now in the world soul saga, will our m+ seasons be long enough to properly experience and progress through them? I do not know, but I hope so. If the difficulty level and gearing ease remain the same as the last two seasons, then hopefully. At the end of the day, though I am deeply glad you started enjoying the season more. Who knows, I may even catch up to ya in progression now and be a lot less of a carry. 😉 See you soon, bud.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya that part about the content speed is my main concern. I'm sure people want season to be like 10 weeks total if that was possible. That's just not long enough to feel like I have mastered the content and thats sad. What's worse though is, is that enough time for them to actually balance things?

[@kopitarrules]

@@heythereguysitsMetro I mean, if we went to a 20 week season, that would work really well, I think, an expansion would then be 80ish weeks down from 104 (or two years) as it is right now. This would give us exactly 2 of every affix rotation and allow them to have the same affix set to start the season every time. I mean don't get me wrong I liked the 27 week seasons, I almost kinda wanted them to go to 30 week seasons. (For similar reasons that a 20 week season would work so well.) But 10 weeks to a season, that seems far to quick to me.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@kopitarrules Well season 1 was 20 weeks. I think that's their goal, they just get slowed down a few weeks here and there. I was just saying some people probably want it to be even faster, so it might really get out of control.

[@kopitarrules]

@@heythereguysitsMetro Makes sense. I just hope Blizzard has the good sense to listen to the right people when it comes to stuff like that, going forward. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

[@bola31]

Season starts should never be Tyrannical.. S3 started on Tyrannical too... They 100% could fix that.. but here we are.. I am no where near you on the keys so far.. Ive done maybe 15-20 with my M+ Team and helping other guildmates.. My best in time is only a 7.. but I feel things are going well for me.. Next week is going to be stupid easy I feel.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

They COULD fix it, but I don't think they want to constantly be resetting the affix rotation each season. Its more a problem with the dungeons than anything, imo.

[@normannseils3936]

I think you will get suprised by next week. Besides it being one of the worst combos ever (bolstering fortified) that fortified affix alone will kill a lot of groups especially if you at not playing with a VDH who deletes half of the mechanics of every pack. I’m telling you, that specc is so bad for the health of the games it can’t believe it.

[@TheAttendee]

Just get rid of tyr/fort! They're boring and annoying more than anything at this point.

[@normannseils3936]

@@TheAttendee they are just unbalanced, unnecessaryly pronouncing differences in certain packs or bosses. It if would be a flat 10 or 15% to health and dmg it would change routing slightly, which is good, without getting too much out of hand. Bosses having so much more life than normal just feels bad. And trash hitting way to hard is also not a great feeling.

[@coreystarreveld473]

I feel like people are forgetting that it’s not just a 10 level key squish. It’s also a gear squish. At the beginning of a season it’s normally close to a 10 level squish because of gear and now we get an added 10 levels. A lot of people are going into thinking they can ignore mechanics because a +2 should equal an old +12 but it’s actually much higher.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya I think everyone knows that honestly. But I think it's the psychology of the the low number that messes with people the most.

[@paweldurczok]

Coming from a very casual, very noob-ish player here, someone who's season 3 was the first Mythic season. I did +13s at most last season, I'm playing only tanks and I was switching between 4 of them to find the spec that I liked. I was very excited for S4 for all the reasons you've listed. However, I feel the change to the heroic -> M0 -> M+ scaling created a difficulty gulf that is very difficult on the less proficient players. Pair that up with the low ilvl most players enter M0 and low M+ and you have a combination of factors that are very detrimental to the PUG experience. In season 3 the difficulty scaling was far more linear, which not only allowed player to make more mistakes in the beginning that didn't end in deaths of wipes, but also allowed them for incremental gear upgrades to further offset the increasing difficulty. In season 4 however, I find that even the M0, with ilvl of ~480 and the full 4-set bonus from last season, the difficulty spike is so significant, that players really need to really cycle their defensives and kicks properly in order to deal with the damage. Even with 2 affixes and a timer I found +10's of S3 far easier than M0's this seasons. Perhaps the dungeons are somewhat overturned. Perhaps the players still need to get used to the new dungeons, but it is definitely a rough start. I did Halls yesterday at M0 and we had 12 deaths and two wipes.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya I can see where you are coming from but sadly this is what the game needs to move forward though. The "more linear difficulty scaling" that allowed players to "make more mistakes" is exactly why this change needed to happen. Keys were far far too easy and lenient in season 3, such that you might do dozens of hours of low keys and think you are doing well, and then as soon as you step into a somewhat higher key, you get smashed, flamed, and it causes all kinds of social issues. The system needs to be hard from the ground up, and you are confirming to me that that is working if you are saying you are struggling in zeros. At the end of the day, there is a LOT of gearing still to come, but I do think these dungeons might be slightly harder than expected, just from a raw numbers standpoint too.

[@paweldurczok]

@@heythereguysitsMetro Oh I agree with you. I'm just pointing out where I think the teething problems are coming from. I still think this was a good change and people will adjust and in week 2 or 3 PUGs should be a lot more efficient.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@paweldurczok Sweet, totally on the same page there!

[@Dea7hWarran7]

I’d agree, and for a change of air I’m glad to see the significant squish. I’ve found out who the carries are in my guild groups, and I just don’t group with them anymore. I’ve also gotten a few laughs out of the +4-+7 bracket.

[@kozstreamstv]

I know this is from 2 weeks ago but everything still stands true. Trying to get the 8x8's done for vault is a nightmare, its a 50/50 chance to get through it successfully. Watching people die with their defensives up, kicks going off because people wont use them, or incorp this week people have no idea what to do. I had a pally with turn evil and a warlock with banish (2500io each) have no idea that they can use those to CC them. Pugs just dont care they have the time to roll their faces on the keyboard from 8 hours a day and eventually they get IO. We're a few weeks in now and I am already considering finish up the season because pugging is a literal waste of time. Disbands almost instantly after 1 wipe, and if not that people are more toxic then ever. I personally do not like the DF dungeons, extremely poor turning, overly complicated and a huge expectation for coordination if you wanted to do big pulls. Mechanics based on giant 1 shots aren't fun, eventually it comes down "can i stack enough defensives to life and can everyone else", once the answer is no whats the point in trying to push? DF was built around 1 shots, its terrible and demotivating.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Understandable and agreed with most of this but I will say no one is getting one shot in the keys I'm doing which have been around 13 now. I think people are just undergeared in your groups. The mechanics can often chain you into death but almost nothing is one shotting atm. Even key interrupts like in nokhud.

[@TonyBones616]

The difference between healing keys with guild members vs pugging is insane. I was fairly comfortably doing 8s with the group, but people drop like flies in 3s. I almost feel like dropping the key rank by 10 might have fooled super casual people that don't pay much attention because I've been finding guys with 500+ ilvl doing 100k and under DPS in 5-8s.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya that's exactly what is happening there. Just people not ready for the three. No chance is a three doing more damage than an 8 obviously.

[@anonymousviewer246]

Some rambling: As a new player who started retail during the last week of S3, I kinda liked the 1-10 M+ experience. It allowed me to learn the dungeons (and my class, lol. I boosted a MW to 70 and jumped straight into M+) in a stress free environment. I hate reading guides for dungeons. It takes the fun out of the game for me, but for S4 I feel like I'm forced to do that. Yeah, yeah, skill issue whatever. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely think starting from harder difficulty is better for overall experience and longevity, but like.... Going from S3 to S4 felt night and day for me. Part of it is my gear, part of it is people thinking S3 +2 is same as S4 +2 and part of that is me as a healer being 2nd on overall kicks.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya I think a lot of players will say that about the old lower keys but in reality you were learning very little that would translate into the higher keys because the mechanics just didn't do enough damage to punish you. Now you have mythic zero which should be able to teach you everything you need and without required timers so you can fail and not get into protracted flame wars with people over it like we saw last season haha

[@jongiles415]

I was fairly geared by the end of season on my lock, about 485 or so. I was still not prepared for the total mind flip of change to "lower numbered keys". I really do enjoy less levels of keys and having the content harder; but it's definitely all about having good dps, awareness of fights and learning mechanics/interrupts. Some folks want to just "faceroll a 2" and get disappointed finding out its not longer easy. Definitely a mind flip/psychology thing, but when you get your brain in the right place, it all starts to work out.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya it's legit a big psychological hurdle.

[@apotheonffxiv]

So far im enjoying this season, I like the DF dungeons and the amount of trash can be satisfying seeing everyone's dps numbers be high during those pulls even healers (except most of resto druids), I do have a full 5 man group now which makes these dungeons a lot easier but when I do a key with pugs or we invite 1 or 2 it changes the playstyle drastically ending up with more mistakes made from the pug players and those mistakes can be punishing in these dungeons. I feel once people get more gear and used to the dungeons it will get better especially considering the rework done is fresh for everyone.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I'm certainly interested in seeing what it looks like fully geared.

[@jleyyi]

i always hoped and still do that we would get 8 new dungeons set for the entire expansion and then another 2 to 4 old dungeons that cycle each season, making a total of 10 or 12 dungeons this would keep the seasons fresh since its always some new dungeons while also letting you get used to some of the dungeons, it will also help keep it fresh because theres more variety in each m+ season, if you run 8 dungeons for a year that will be much less boring than running 10 or 12 dungeons for a year i miss season 3 of shadowlands where we had 10 dungeons, was so much more fun

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ten is doable. The more dungeons the harder it is to progress evenly though, which I prefer.

[@slingerland3g]

Not gonna lie, just not feeling it with WOW now. Not getting into any zeros even. Then to run your own 0 only to take 30+ minutes and lots of deaths, is really killing the mojo, then to top it off, no loot. Switched to D4 working on my sorc build. You nailed it when you say, you were disheartened, as I feel the same way. We need very good solo competitive play, like the 'Mage tower' that give great loot and cosmetics, IMHO. D4 has the gauntlet leaderboards.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh ya, well don't burn out so close to the expansion launch. Enjoy diablo!

[@G1ngey]

I've had a horrendous start to the season. Everyone around me is saying how easy the season is and how trivial it is and that they're now doing 10s and 11s. I've started 18 keys this week which I have never one week 1, this is because 11 of those keys I started ended up with a disband. Most of those disbands were after 1 wipe on a still fairly timeable run. This is both on my tank and my healer, mostly pugging. I'm doing everything I can for myself but it feels like pugs are not respecting the key level and the squish and giving up on the first hurdle.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya the giving up is the part that bothers me the most. So sad to see that when everyone needs loot and experience above score right now.

[@FoliumSakura]

Season is absolutely slapping in terms of damage numbers, but overall has been a hella fun season besides pugs coming in with the mentality that its a "low key" or just many not learning mechanics before coming into the keys. Good fundamentals can carry one weak link up to like 6-8s but that does leave us with some heavy peeps in my 8s to farm gear

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya no doubt.

[@TheFinQ]

this is because of the squish people that were never stepping into +15s first week are now doing +5

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I'm sure its happening, but I'm talking about 3.5k players last season when I talk about the failures we have had.

[@TheFinQ]

@@heythereguysitsMetro ah i understand sorry i commented before watching i finished it now and i see where youre coming from

[@driiifter]

It's crazy to see this video because I'm pretty sure I checked out of Season 4 yesterday. Each new season that comes, I just want to start steadily getting gear and upgrades, but you can't because of what they've done with flight stones. Basically they make you farm a zillion dungeons just for the sake of running a zillion dungeons, it's like uhhh, I'm a healer, I need gear NOW, not in 4-5 weeks. They need to go back to making stuff drop off mobs and bosses individually so you can still get something in a dungeon without having to sit inside of it for 1 hour, talking about depleted keys. Ran a +2 Nokud. No one interrupted anything. No stop on the Rally, I had to run in and do it as the healer every single time. No kick on the Roar thing. Everything just pulses AOE damage nonstop in these dungeons, it's crazy to me. Tank didn't know how to tank the twins bosses, got one shot on that. Didn't know how to tank the last boss, wiped 3 times on that, I told him to please tank in the corner after the second wipe, still wiped. Sigh.... I'm gonna go back to just doing nothing but Brackenhide, I don't even care about IO anymore lol. Healers need gear over IO, Blizzard doesn't understand how much stress they're putting on healers.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Hmm I think that's just a problem with lower keys. In lower keys, people are allowed to make those mistakes and then the healer has to respond to them. In higher keys, those mistakes just wipe you, so the DPS has to actually care.

[@Luke-A]

I was 3200 last season and have only just reached the point of doing 8s-9s. NO second boss is my enemy at the moment. As a pres evo a if there are 2 casters in the group not using CDs properly then its harder to heal NO 5 than a Nelth 9

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Gotta prioritize getting ten stacks before that first healing phase. This requires you to run around and take orbs from others. But once you get used to this you will feel a totally different way about that fight.

[@QibingZero]

I feel like all of NO is a nightmare as pres. The huge open spaces just entice people to spread out even when there's no need to...

[@Luke-A]

@@heythereguysitsMetro Thank you for the advice will give it a go later!

[@skancijan]

As a fellow DK tank, its hard week, same as you scared of some hits, they hurt alote...good point as you sayed, ppl stoped interupting, not sure why, coz season 3 was to easy? Also ppl dont know mechanics, Neltharus chain boss they just stand still expecting for tank to run over all 3 chains wich is hard if they to far away from each other, Uldum 3th boss stun etc, and ofc after wipe they leave key. I didnt push hard like you, timed all dungeons 8+ keys, thats enough this week.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Its tough for sure. Excited to see what gear looks like though.

[@cosmicdragonrawr]

I think a good balance would be have all new dungeons season 1/4 and having half of the new ones 2/3.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

The big thing is they never want dungeons to appear in two seasons in a row. So that's why this went that way.

[@skylarius3757]

at 475 ilevel, I went into a +2 key as tank and I was not expecting trash to hit as hard as it did.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

And that's on tyrannical!

[@dannyd806]

Dude, me too! I was quite shocked when I was forced to use some defensives. Ive been doing these dungeons since S1 so I just started pulling it like I would before the squish and I was in for a surprise!

[@FannerofFlames]

I know this is anecdotal, but on Oceanic realms, its been pretty chill. Most groups have been fairly competent, and the egregious carries just mean early disbands with minimal fuss (key holder dying twice to first pull in AA etc). I'm pugging exclusively in the 8-10 range (hero track gear) so can't really relate to the 2-4 range (first key done was a 7, so started off with a 6 key and haven't done any in the lower range). Starting with tyr feels like its only an issue due to gear, cause the difference between keys on day 1 with 488 ilevel and day 6 with 505+ ilevel is night and day. Looking forward to fort next week and absolutely blasting (or getting my ass blasted) by uldaman bracken and algethars.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Gear is going to be huge for sure.

[@FannerofFlames]

Oh, was half listening and went back to relisten to your coda about tank busters and my only thought is - welcome to prot pally life lol. I need at least a minor defensive for every single tank buster or I fold like a wet blanket (as long as it's appropriately challenging content Vis a vis ilevel). Also not sure about your experience, but umbrelskul TRUCKS me hard. Standing in consecrate (21%DR) and with ardent defender (20%DR) and almost 15% Vers and the tankbuster still drops me from full to 20% lol (on a 10 at ilevel 499)

[@gpm135]

I think you have forgotten most wow players did not truly understand the dungeon mechanics in season 1 dungeons.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Hmm no, I don't' buy that. We had a very good successrate in season 1, and I look at that as the hardest season of the game since Season 1 of Shadowlands.

[@dannyd806]

I love the key squish! Making these low level keys actually a challenge is probably the best thing they could have done. Bricking a +3 was such a bitch slap to me 😂 wasn’t my fault more like low dps and disregarding mechanics. I think my favourite thing so far is getting to game with those 3300io+ players for a week. I was 2830 last season so not a total noob but it’s a delight playing with actual good players.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Nice that's very cool to hear. Hope this all can encourage you to push harder and harder. The game needs that encouragement!

[@ToxicFume]

As shit as it feels, i really hope they keep this current system or something very familiar.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

The rotating dungeon system you mean

[@ToxicFume]

@@heythereguysitsMetro The current difficulty scaling. Even though heroics and m0 still feel the same. I gerenally like the idea M+ is a bit more harder from the get go, instead of waiting for m10+ to actually feel the curve.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@ToxicFume oh ya totally agree with that

[@kenmesser3259]

I don’t know if it is that hard pug’ed to 2030 already, don’t think the gear requirement is to high if anything to low atm. Timed all at 10 week 1 at 505 ilvl how easy will that be at 520 ilvl? Drachenn-daggerspine check it out

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

We are at the same level. I'm saying my experience getting to this level is far harder than previous seasons. What is your experience in that matter?

[@QibingZero]

After some bad experiences on trash already this week, I'm very worried going into Fortified. If you're in a group with/as a non-meta tank, you have to really put a lot of trust in the rest of the group to perform.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

It is going to be wild with bolstering too.

[@hixsy]

Nice one metro.. Been enjoying ya lives and can see your frustration. You know common sense ain't that common right.. Ya can't expect people to have your mindset. I won't tank a dungeon I ain't looked at.. But that's just me. Its hard as you know your setting yourself up for wasting your time or a flaming or people.. Its shame.. That's what stops people enjoying this game.. Keep the good content comin my man..and looking forward to Watchin your pugs not kicking next week.. Haha

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Thanks! Next week is gonna be a mess haha

[@OldManDoom]

I was really excited to push early this season, but I spent 2 days trying to get my S3 Keystone Hero toon into a +2 without getting in, and started working on getting Taivan. I have actually had fun going for the Meta, though. So maybe I will just do other things this season. I don’t know if getting groups together will get better or worse as the season goes on

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

For low keys always best to just do your own. But ya, I feel ya. Dragonflight is amazing. No shortage of content to explore.

[@klee1410]

I did warn that the key squish wouldn't really change anything. All it would do is change the points at which the fail occurs, and those points were always relative anyway to aggregate player progression. All that changed is that the bottom fell out so now you have the absolute trash players (like players that used to be in m+1-10) now stuck in a higher tier of content than they can handle. You really either have to be pugging way ahead of the "curve" to avoid the crowd of fail or just play with friends. Add to all this the fact that this is a rehash season so a lot of more casual "completion" type players aren't even playing... you're going to have a season where there's just a ton of people who just leave as soon as something goes wrong. I did actually have a feeling this season of "hitting the ground running" but I don't really pug so... that might be what you need... a set group of friends. Pugging sucks unless you're just looking for a laugh or are looking to go super hardcore harder than the rest of your friends in volume.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh no, the changes are absolutely going to be great for the lower key level players. Already tons of evidence it's working well down there. I'm talking more about a higher tier of player not putting in research, which is really sad to see. Basically confirms to me that many "good" players don't really play long term and aren't actually serious about playing season to season. Not sure what they do to get their progression but it comes off as if they are willing to be carried.

[@celery4564]

I saw this season was going to be a clusterf*ck as people are coming back to give it a go thinking a +2 is a "+2" and they can just walk through stuff like it's a normal level dungeon.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

No doubt but that's not what I'm referring to obviously. Talking about higher keys with actually accomplished players.

[@asasdsaasda]

Damn Metro, you are nr1 dk on your realm, I don't know why this make me proud, keep up the good work

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh ya? Not a lot of people playing Blood I'm sure.

[@TheAttendee]

Wish I recorded it, but I had a warrior tank in a +2 RLP last night who didn't know what ignore pain was. And all of our attempts at helping him seemed to fall on deaf ears. We were so confused.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh ya, I'm sure that sort of thing happens a lot. I coached a friend of mine on blood last season who was doing 20s without boneshield on for minutes at a time haha

[@milly1844]

I had uldaman 4, it got disband. Then did 3, with 10 min overtime. Ppl failing on boss mechanics. I dont even how bad is going to be on higher keys. It is just wth moment

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya those keys are probably wild right now. Record them and send them in!

[@thaniel814]

New seasons same players. Hunters forget why they get invited to keys, mechanics not being done, the carried keyholder, sub tank DPS players and the list goes on. This is my first season of m+ and im enjoying the challenge but i dont enjoy having to pick up for bad players when i put effort in myself. I have had some teams that just nuked the content as well but much less so. Anyways thanks for the streams. Your routes and gameplay have helped be confident tanking m+ and im glad i started.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Glad to hear its helping! But ya sadly the pug community gets worse and worse. We have to do what we can to clean it up, but it takes more than just me to want to do it.

[@JumboCod91]

Ive had a blast so far. But I havnt played with pugs at all since Season 2. Sure I play less than in S1, but Im no longer constantly on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Haha if that's what you need to do I don't blame ya

[@asheranna]

I couldn't even get into M0s pugging on my main. Granted I came back in the last month or so I was still trying to catch up. I did get a few done surprisingly, but I'm definitely not where I want to be and it's frustrating.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya it's tough, there are probably a hundred people signing up to each group haha. Gotta just make your own groups for those.

[@williamgraham5924]

After running my own keys as a DPS and taking a break from healing I 1000% understand now why people check peoples parses and won’t invite 99% of whoever que. I’m used to being able to heal people through mistakes but I’m noticing that even healers this season are not good at all. I have had more failed and people leave keys due to healers and tanks being absolutely terrible than anything than any other season I’ve ever played.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya go back to healing. There are a TON of lazy healers out there. As a tank I see them more often than I see some one actually trying their best. Luckily this season just putting on the trinket from av is enough to bring value outside healing.

[@williamgraham5924]

@@heythereguysitsMetro yup spot on. People also suck at rotating defensive too. It happens to me sometimes. But You said it best there’s some tank busters and spells that one shot you if you don’t rotate def correct in higher keys. Majority of the player base has no idea how to rotate defensive only offensives. Or use defensive face tank it and pray their healer gets them through lol.

[@davidkim6469]

Season 4 is very fun to gear especially the antique bronze bullion system

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, if you are a raider, this is a really good time for gearing!

[@CAPSLOCKING]

What's super weird about this season IMO there's a few slight changes in the dungeons that make a major difference. Now that you're forced to tank the first boss' cleave in AV, that boss is a lot more dangerous, for example. At the same time we're back in the 'Interrupts are king' set of DF dungeons where several mob packs are just lethal if a certain cast isn't interrupted, but completely trivial and do no damage when interrupts/CC are done well. And with new players entering M+ at the +2-4 level, and not interrupting, even a decently geared healer is not going to keep them up through some of it.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya good point sthere!

[@sps3r654]

The healing checks were higher as well. Had a 3200 tank get 95-0'd from the first boss in a 8 AV. Everyone not knowing when to use defensives/self heal doesnt help on week 1. Pretty large jump from needing 100k hps to needing 200k+. Fun though.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Would you consider that a healing check? I personally wouldn't as a tank, but maybe that's because I usually am doing all the healing on myself anyway as a blood dk haha

[@FannerofFlames]

Pretty sure AV is THE dungeon in this season for tank busters. First boss 3rd boss and last boss all have absolutely brutal tank abilities

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@FannerofFlames right which is what I was saying here. That's apparently the easiest dungeon this season. Not for me!

[@OttawaAnon1001]

My 490ish blood dk at 1.5mil hp was almost getting one shot by the last two bosses of a Nokhud 5. The rest of the dungeon wasn't really scary just Marruks brutalize and Khans Rending strike needed full health and/or cooldowns to live through. I think it's mostly a gear thing atm. I'm stuck with no Drake crests to upgrade my gear and the 5+ I'm running just keep dropping shoulders and nothing else.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, we will see what it looks like when we are fully geared.

[@normannseils3936]

@Ottawa: I don’t be that guy, but that’s a skill issue. You need to build up bloodshield before the hit as „mitigation“. If you gear for a lot of mastery that is super easy with around 80% at that gear level. That can be said to almost all bosses. For most other you have AMS anyways.

[@Luxumbra69]

i came across a rash of keys on my healer alt where people were only 1 chesting a +2. People dying to literally every mechanic. so rough. If they want this new key scaling/level to be successful, i feel like it would be really good to remove the rotating dungeons. There is too much for people that are trying to step into M+ for the first time. These people need to be locked in a room of their peers and stuck in mythic 0 until they get deathless runs lol.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I think the rotating dungeon thing is causing more issues than it's helping imo. But I doubt they will change it.

[@nukins]

Feel like this would have been better to start off with a new expac when people have to do heroic and m0 to learn the dungeons because it seems like a mix bag of people who know and dont know whats up in terms of the dungeon, and honestly after DF i wish they would do away with the rotating dungeon pool because it seems like every season this expac after season 1 had a "rough" launch compared to prior expacs

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya no doubt, but obviously they wanted to test it before they did it. Season 4s are pretty much all about that sort of thing.

[@ShaolinPotato]

Having my main class of 8yrs (ret paladin) be the fotm has been brutal. Im lucky to even get invited to keys even though im over 500ilvl. Then dealing with being denied because there are SO MANY rets that have literally 0 idea how to use their utility is making it so rough to even get into keys, much less finish them Edit: THANK GOD IM NOT THE ONLY ONE. I thought it was just me getting absolutely dumpstered by random shit that used to tickle me. Like i took a melee from a random mob in AV and got obliterated through my passives and Shield of Veng on a +4. Its was insane

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ret is so strong though. Never been a better time. Just rise above the rest and you'll be doing crazy things.

[@Craig_Narramoore]

2s are not easy. It's basically doing 12s in week 1 S3 right off the bat. There is a lot of people who either don't know/can't do the fights or are over confident. It's not a "good" idea that Blizzard had. The usual 5 level jump would have been ok.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I disagree with all that haha. Twos are absolutely easy, people are just undergeared. And ya it's really a genius idea blizzard did that, it forces people to act learn if they want to do mythic plus.

[@goran77ish]

I might know what it was those 2 days. Casuals don't follow news so they just jumped in like 2s or 5s which you could just faceroll before. After 2 days they figured it is to much for them.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I'm sure that did happen for sure. I was talking about more accomplished players though.

[@rawritstandy]

Sadly as a MW main I need to keep my old 4p for the throughput needed. I have tried healing with higher ilvl gear instead but it's not worth it to lose chi harmony.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

You haven't ran into any situations where your health pool is being challenged yet?

[@rawritstandy]

@@heythereguysitsMetro Yes but you pretty much have to rotate defensives or chi ji cocoon through some things. If you aren't paying attention when things line up badly someone will die and these bosses are horrible for that. That being said I'm still at 1mil hp and my cc game is strong. I get annoyed at missed stops as a healer so I'm a Tauren for the War Stomp goodness, combined with Leg Sweep, Ring and Paralysis I can deal with most things by myself. Let's face facts, it's another week 1 where raw healing can't compensate for errors.

[@vjr6939]

Hmm, yeah i think perception is pretty bad, i kept reminding guildies all week that 2 is not a 2. Also the addition of non-rng gear is a crazy big W for me. Granted im not “competitive” as i dont care to make my life miserable on pugs, so i cruise to hero on my 4 or 5 tanks over a few weeks and let that be it. Also, with currency caps, i cant be bothered over-capping on crests, rather, this week, i can my tanks to 3-5 range to get a feel. That said, there are some epic fails, people hopping into 2s and 3s doing sub 100k dps, no idea of mechanics etc. Sort of fun, but also annoying.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

It's hard to get used to for sure.

[@georgeindestructible]

I think we need an addon that simply says "Interrupt this or you die" when a mob starts casting at a player, like, it's actually so easy to create.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

That's basically how all interrupts work at a certain level and none at a lower level. Not sure what you think the addon would be for.

[@georgeindestructible]

@@heythereguysitsMetro It would save new players from being one shotted in M+ as they would learn what to interrupt and what targeted them since it would give real time information of being targeted and by what, and also from the fact that that thing killed them.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@georgeindestructible more information is needed for sure. I think it should just be a part of the base game though. An addon is something a lot of people simply won't use, and that will always be an issue with the game.

[@georgeindestructible]

@@heythereguysitsMetro I agree 100% but Blizzard is still hardcore in that regard. My idea about the game is very simple, the add-on knows the scaling of the M+ key, it can also read from the debuff you have when the damage multiplier value to confirm when you are in an M+ key, it can read your current HP, and it can also read the base line damage value of any spell which can be cast on you, and when it does, so, combine that info together and it can automatically, literally below 1 milisecond, calculate if the damage will kill you or not, it's so simple i should learn how to create it actually. Not sure if Blizzard's gonna like it though because they want the player to be able to tell from thinking that...yeah...

[@captainkribble7665]

i really think its the new key system. so many people that would have been doing +5-8 on old system are now trying to still do +5-8 on new system. ive seen so many people that should have just been doing heroic dungeons but they think they should be in higher keys when there just not geared or ready. i really like the new system but i feel it really punishes casual players a little too much.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I was talking more players that I know did higher keys last season still failing in these keys.

[@Aegea291]

I personally found the first few days of the season brutal in +2 - seems like people were surprised about the ilevel hike. I didn’t also do S1 so only knew mythic mechanics for a few dungeons. I guess a lot of people were the same way and probably only knew the dungeons when levelling so only did heroic which do not teach you much. I personally like rotating dungeons because it keeps each season fresh. It would make me bored fast if every season in the expansion just repeated the same set each time.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya sadly that "boredom" would have solved these issues you are having right? That's the problem with rotating dungeons. If everyone learned these things years ago, you'd be off to the races right now.

[@Aegea291]

@@heythereguysitsMetro and also, I feel that with rotating dungeons, people are kinda forced to learn mechs from the start, rather than in this case thinking they've been doing the heroic versions for a long time, so mythic should be as easy and then getting slapped when they try them.

[@Kalletenz]

I had a warlock with season 2 gear equipped doing a 10 and telling me there are no other sources to get gear this fast. Nothing can top that

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Haha gotta record the funny stuff and send it in! We are depending on you!!

[@Bunstonious]

To be clear: The game hasn't worked this way for 20 years, M+ has only been out since legion (almost 8). I wouldn't count Challenge Modes and Heroics to be the same. This season is harder because everyone complains that "everything is too easy" and so they have been designing dungeons recently to require hyper coordination and having all dungeons like this with no breaks just feels bad. On top of that it feels as though they're way overtuned and just unfun. I'll grind to KSM and maybe try KSH as the season progresses, but once i'm done i'll probably just chill in MoP remix which looks way more fun. I think M+ this expansion was saved by dungeon cycling and if I had to deal with this pool of dungeons the whole expansion i'd have quit in S1 ngl.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya unfortunately I find it has caused way more issues than it has helped. I do not feel compelled by people saying they would quit because, like I said, it worked this way for a long time and no one complained. I can see why you'd prefer it this way but for the health of the system I will continue to suggest blizzard undoes this idea. I'm sure they will not listen to that feedback though so you will probably continue to be happy given that

[@Bunstonious]

@heythereguysitsMetro I'm surprised you'd be happy people leaving because of boredom rather than play the game, but different strokes I suppose. Not sure there are too many "issues" other than people having to start afresh each season (kinda the point of a different season?). The alternative to adding older content is to keep up the really poorly designed and received seasonal affix which I don't think is really a great option (and no seasonal affixes would just be a bad experience).

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Bunstonious I just meant I doubt people would actually leave because this is how mythic plus was forever and keys have only gotten more rare since those days. I think the game has a huge problem with recency bias and frankly entitlement. The issues I have laid out very well so not really interested in listing them all again. But just want to remind that these are first and foremost a competitive environment. Fun matters, sure. But so does balance and progression and right now the product is inferior to how it was before when the dungeons didn't rotate in that way.

[@Azari_D]

I like to get better and progress at the content, but I ‘do’ think it gets stale if it’s the same dungeons all xpac. Maybe they could do the xpac current dungeons for the whole time but make 12 dungeons total and rotate those extra 4. Playing old dungeons from past xpacs has been so cool.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Hmm well I disagree but I'm sure blizzard is on your side here so no worries. I just know everything would be so much smoother if they didn't rotate. Think about how much imbalance comes week one too.

[@James-b69]

I definitely don’t like the old dungeons being added to the m+ pool. It was cool at first to keep things fresh, and experience dungeons that I’ve never done before as current content. I don’t think it is a good thing to continue rotating the dungeons like they do. I would like to play the current expansions dungeons, not previous ones.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Same here for sure.

[@Xemozazk]

I dont know if 2-5 is easier. From my experience 2-5 has been a massive flip of the coin if the key will get completed.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I just mean numerically. Very easy timers too.

[@luchixgalaxoza2300]

This season has been the first one when I failed to ever time a +2. I had a mage in a BH+2 that was averaging half my dps (I was the tank) while alive on every pull, and I was pulling 9-20 mobs each time. In the first 2 days I entered 10 keys and completed 3. I really don't understand what is happening, I was tempted to just cancel my sub and come back next month in hopes that people learn their classes and the DF dungeons again. But since then every +8 I entered besides and Uldaman I have at least timed, if not +2'd, so I guess the solution was just to do higher keys where not even the morons themselves are confident in their ability to carry their own weight.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

If you are doing low keys record them and send in so we can do reviews on it and laugh and learn at the wild stuff going on. Don't forget though, a 2 is basically a 12 now.

[@Mduffy-yo6rb]

You’re seeing people that would normally fall in the 2-16 bracket crunched together with people into the 17+ bracket. What was supposed to happen was them going into m0, gearing, and learning. But how many people actually read or follow WoW news. A majority do not, and those are the players you’re experiencing at the current moment. I think that it will work itself out as the season progresses and people adjust. IMO once I got to +7 I usually didn’t have a hard time completing because a majority of the players knew what to expect.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I agree with all that in general. I was more talking about players actually the same score or higher than me failing in these ways though.

[@kizzagaming6523]

Oh boy, I think the difficulty for worse players has ramped in these keys already - People not kicking orbs / stunning them in Halls of infusioin + Standing next to tank and getting cleaved by spear guys bleeds. People running away from frogs, Nokhud letting the bird AOE group dot get cast, or the centaurs at the start not getting kicked or stunned, when I compare it to last season I feel like it's just a curve for people to learn to actually play the game again. Been a rough start for us too (pugging at least).

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya it's really disheartening because all these things should have been learned already. I expected something way different to transpire.

[@thyoutcast1838]

I’ve been getting into groups where people are so under geared and they just drop like flies it’s so frustrating imma just wait for fort tbh before I push

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh it's gonna be even worse next week man. Fortified bolstering haha

[@nilohermes6447]

I don't get why they erased keys from 2-9, creating this huge gap. They should have just moved timer and affixes to higher keys. People new to m+ gonna get their teeth kicked in. Also kind of bad for people who lived in these keys before.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

That's exactly why they did it and why its such a great change. Getting your "teeth kicked in" is wayyy more healthy than 10 levels of absurdly easy keys that fail to teach you anything that actually matters about higher keys. We have reviewed a LOT of footage of people doing as high as 17 and straight up not understanding the absolute basics of encounters, and that is a product of the system pushing people along even if they don't learn anything. That needed to be changed, desperately.

[@jondahl19]

the pain of doing +2 whit players that don't know their class and or the dungeon and have zero interest in learning. just one of these run make me wanna uninstall game.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Instead, install OBS and press record and send us the funny moments!

[@Alton4]

like season 1 and season 2 ,communicating via discord for mplus gets you half the way at least most of the time..this is a big pug barrier especially for players that their celling are ex 15s... p.s DF dungeons are still hugely badly tuned

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I don't think they are "badly tuned" at all. They looked harder alongside saw shadowmoon burial grounds obviously. But now that it's just them they are all pretty equally challenging. Love that so far.

[@snowballs2023]

Guy accidentally invited 250 or 350 ilvl he had mix of blues and season 2 into +2. He died every hit. I think there should be ilvl requirement to enter mythic plus.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

That would require them to implement a system for forming the groups. Right now you can invite no one and still start the key. The good and bad thing about mythic plus.

[@MotocrossRacingOnline]

It's very hit or miss, as a healer it's kinda anxiety inducing to have dps die to 1shot mechanics they fail to avoid

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh it should be the exact opposite haha. They died to something you can't possibly help them with. They need to work harder not you.

[@MichaelGraves-ew2gt]

I'm digging the dungeons so far. I personally like the difficulty the more I play and defin. liking tank a lot more this season. But, I don't really like the people that come with pugs. need 2 more dps friends that have no life and can play ALL the time.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Haha ya that's the problem. You eventually end up having to pug and then you see the issues with it.

[@gpm135]

Hmmm, I think you should play resto druid and pug....you will find it is not so easy to switch in and out of form (due to the GCD) and trusting your pug group wont die while on GCD. ESPECIALLY early in a season where ppl have forgotten some mechanics.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

All this says to me is not to play alongside Resto Druid. What healing do you even have that would respond to some one dying in one GCD anyway? Is it not something you are meant to be maintaining with hots the whole time? Realistically all the things one shotting people are interruptible though, so better figure it out.

[@mothboi2695]

Resto Druid swapping forms is quite easy, you do have CDs ready but if you know how to play correctly it isn’t an issue Edit: if a player is dying within a GCD, that is a player skill issue not a healer issue

[@Neurotik51]

@@mothboi2695 But to the healer it feels like you failed, that's what people don't seem to get and it's a hard mindset to break

[@mothboi2695]

@@Neurotik51 yeah that’s fair, but that’s why it is good to know how the game works.

[@mareksimurda5101]

I've been doing keys on every difficulty and it feels terrible. As if you want to play the game you just need premade group with good players as it feels unpugable on any lvl

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

You don't feel like it's getting any better after the vault and gearing?

[@mareksimurda5101]

@@heythereguysitsMetro It feels almost same. I don't believe the gear was the problem. In my opinion the mistakes were made at the mechanics of the bosses and that made the keys hard. Rn people make same mistakes, but it's a bit more forgiving.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@mareksimurda5101 gear has been transformative for me at least

[@The-Oneshot]

all of this is true and also i noticed alot of people do not know how to get the first spark or have it used on something for atleast a 502 or 525 upgrade. hoping people figure out sparks by week2 and the bullions bc its getting old queueing up to keys and everyone like 480 - 490 at most

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Well I intentionally elected not to craft anything this week. Better to let the dust settle on the first vault if you ask me. If I crafted a belt then got a belt in the vault that would be an issue I could have avoided.

[@georgehunda649]

I think ur right about seasonal dungeons lowering the ceiling that you can work toward, but I also think the better players are the ones who adapt faster to the new dungeons. Whether it's looking at ur logs or vods to get better at ur cd timings or reading some stuff in mdt. Personally I see learning the dungeon as a lower priority than just being a better player and being able to react to new mechanics in general. That and the ability to adapt is just a different way to express ur skill as a player, rather than sheer experience with a static dungeon pool

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, for me I am absolutely a lover of "sheer experience." Feels way better to be rewarded for that long term commitment to the system, in my brain.

[@normannseils3936]

I much prefer this season (if you don’t factor in VDH balance and pugging). The dungeons have mechanical/execution heavy bosses that reward good play not so many gimmicks ( Atal charge baits, Eb flowers without freedom, Murozond skips and gauntlets to name a few) as last season. Last season was mostly Bring the class not the player. This season feels more like bring the player not the class (if we don’t count VDH).

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya the dragonflight dungeons are just such a more complete experience for mythic plus.

[@stelthy3450]

People came back for s4. People also, are not that great at this game. Now the new key levels are going to discourage players so they will fall off with the difficulty. They thought doing this would make more groups available but all it will ever do is weed out the bad players and right back to square one again. Less groups. Who wants to run a 2 and fail? That's what's been happening to people.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Well to be fair, I support this from happening. If people are failing in 2s, then the system is working. They need to learn, and the game has to FORCE them to learn. Less groups isn't a bad thing if all the people who quit are the guys you don't want to play with anyway.

[@christopherneil8265]

I think I tried 20 keys yesterday (monday before first reset) and completed… none of them. 100% disbanded.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Wow what level!?

[@christopherneil8265]

@@heythereguysitsMetro 7-9

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@christopherneil8265 thats pretty wild haha. Never seen it that bad myself, and I have seen it BAD.

[@jackiethomas3301]

I think its the healing requirements, i was doing an 8 RLP and if anyone made 1 mistake it was dungeon over its crazy

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I have seen a lot of very near one-shots though. Even the tank breaker. I think its just a gear thing at this point.

[@AuraPanda]

You are so, so far off the mark here Metro. I actually got into a massive argument with some guild members about this. First: You are pugging which is an environment where you objectively must accept there are variables outside of your control. It is not Blizzard's fault you are trying to push for +10 on day one, and they should never balance a season with that aspiration in mind because then 80% of players would stop M+ day one. Second: Your expectation of PUGS is insanely high and unreasonable. My guildmaster agrees with you: nobody should ever make mistakes, nobody should ever fail, "you've run these dungeons hundreds of times" -- These dungeons were in rotation two YEARS ago. And believe it or not, most players are casually enjoying M+, not treating it like an esport. So they will need time to learn, and if you're pugging into people like this then I can't really sympathize... you aimed the gun right at your own foot and then pulled the trigger. Third: You failed your own expectation by gunning for +10's day one. You, yourself, are not doing the incremental increases in stats that you're expecting the less skilled players to do to obtain the knowledge they lack. You are trying to jump straight to the finish line without any consideration for the fact: nobody in the game has the ilvl to do that content reliably at this point save for the lucky few that had lucky rolls in their normal, heroic, mythic raid clears. And you aren't alone. Everyone is clammering to get higher and higher keys done and the game is just not having it because we don't have the stats yet. Maybe that could change after 2-3 weekly vaults. I'm a fan of your content, but you are deeply entrenched in some issues of expectations - for what the game has to offer, for what pugs are capable of, and for how most players interact with M+. You were in high keys most of last season, and probably only saw a small fraction of the player base at the highest level for months. Blizz leveled the playing field and now you're seeing actual, normal, casual players, and it's... kinda entertaining tbh

[@stuff4812]

i think the biggest problem this season will face is that its entire dungeon pool is DF dungeons. Worst set of dungeons in history

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Hmm I think you are just misunderstanding what I have said or what my experience is or something. I am just comparing previous experience to this one, and this one is far far worse in terms of success. Most seasons, I easily get to 10 (or 20) the first week, and again, the reason my expectations were high was because (since I have done this easily in the past) I expected people to play better this season than most, due to the returning dungeon pool. And the fact that keys were so easy on the PTR. As for my complaint, I'm not talking about "normal casual players" I'm talking about people the same score as my DK or even higher simply not taking the time to familiarize themselves with these dungeons at all, which is really frustrating, given half of them were playable in the live game less than a year ago.

[@AuraPanda]

​@@heythereguysitsMetro I understand. Phrased differently: the entire playerbase just got squished into a tighter window of key levels and despite score/ilvl/etc, I believe you are seeing casual players in your keys currently. A casual player who was 2500 last season might be in your playspace now due to the key level squish. They might be "undeserving" of their current score in your eyes, and I guess that's fine if you believe that or whatever. It probably won't make the next few weeks very enjoyable is all. People approach M+ in a multitude of ways and some people, even with 1700-2300 rating right now might not give a flying fuck what the priority kicks are or what the optimal routes are. They might just be there for a good time.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@AuraPanda No, you can see their score from last season still. Its not some mystery. I am talking about players who were doing 26-27 last season failing to have done any research at all and wiping to things you'd know if you did the dungeon once on normal mode.

[@AuraPanda]

@@heythereguysitsMetro Interesting, I concede to your point then. Something that might be helpful to look at: what was the date they ran the last key of S3? Maybe they took a snooze for a few weeks/months at the end of S3?

[@lre4real]

I was thinking I might come back to try out the new season ;-; maybe not

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

It's gotten a lot better each day to be honest. Give it a try!

[@Lilligirl319]

I think overall you have had a bad run of it this season. My lock is 2042 io 502 ilvl and has done 41 runs according to raider io. I have had maybe 2-3 disbands. I will say that based on my lock I thought healing would be so much harder than it is. Over the weekend I quickly knocked off 23 keys on resto druid. Got her to 1877 io with the highest couple of keys at +10 and the lowest a +7. I had zero disbands but we did drop the level of a +9 Azure to a +8 after a wipe on first boss.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I have trouble believing it honestly. I think if you used the spreadsheet and collected your runs you'd see more the truth of it. But still, you played an ENORMOUS amount this week. You did nearly double the keys I did, apparently all of them were finished, and I streamed nearly 30 hours haha

[@Lilligirl319]

@@heythereguysitsMetro Yep when i wrote that stats I did cringe that I have been on the game far far to much this week. I just think that you have had some bad runs. I have not watched all your keys to be fair but iv had it going in background a little. I wonder if some of the differences are that I am very careful the runs join. I just see you apply to anything. Maybe that makes you better because you will tank for anyone. I wont heal for just anyone haha

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Lilligirl319 Ya to be fair I have zero bar to entry usually. Too long of a wait time while streaming. If we are sitting there too long, viewers tune out.

[@Imfrostedup6348]

didn't really do season 3 until mid and it was pretty crazy but in the end i got 3k rating lol so all it is is just keep running it, you get some good people bad people who cares move on. it's like that in every game, you suck in the beginning but get better as you play through. I doubt all these people who think they badass was perfect in the beginning

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I'm comparing the first week of previous seasons to this one. This one was far far worse than previous ones. That's the topic at hand here.

[@Darkkfated]

Long story short: Mythic 0 is no longer a joke and you can't just ignore all mechanics like you used to be able to. A +2 now is as tough as a +14 from last season because we're all ungeared now - clearly the new difficulty tuning for M+ in S4 is assuming you have an ilvl of 500-sih, even for low keys. Until people realize these things and get some gear and maybe bring more than 3 brain cells to runs, things are going to be rough.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Gear comes quick this season too. But I don't think anyone needs to be 500 for low keys haha. Failure there is simply mechanical ineptitude.

[@Darkkfated]

@@heythereguysitsMetro I dunno, we no-timed our first two +2 PUGs and everyone was still in the 470-485 range. It was a struggle. A +2 in this first week feels like a +16 from last week, even without the 2nd Affix. Anyway, I think it boils down to "expecting people to learn and improve" is always going to end in disappointment - PUGs are used to failing forward in Season 3, because in that season in particular, 1 skilled player could carry 4 morons through to a timed victory. In this season, 2 skilled players can carry the other 3 through to a victory, timed or not. So there's little incentive to improve when you can just queue up for +2s forever and ever amen and eventually you'll get paired with a couple of people who can offheal and interrupt damn near everything and carry your lazy un-learning ass to victory until you get loot and enough Crests to do some upgrades. This is the key (pun intended) problem that wasn't fixed, despite the boost to M0 and the Key number crunch: you can still go in woefully undergeared and suck balls, and still get rewards. It'll be slower, sure, but not impossible.

[@cocs88715]

A lot of returning players who haven’t played for at least 2 seasons…zero awareness of basic mechanics

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya I'm just not sure what they are returning now for if they didn't play at the start. That seems backwards to what is normal.