Mythbusting Display Lag

[@ZezRetro]

What I like about this video is when Bob finds a result which seems odd, he adds informed speculation but readily says "I don't know". Beware of those who say they have all the answers :D

[@DaleyRetro]

Great video Bob, heard you talk about analogue signal inputs on modern flat screens before and still can't quite believe how different it is to a HDMI input. I've taken a lot of tips from your videos over the years and now have 11 consoles going into one HDMI port on my TV, using rad2x's and retrotink 2x mini on my older consoles, all going into one big powered HDMI switch with a master output. Works a treat and can't thank you enough. Cheers 🍺

[@kraskfoo]

I hope we get a central database for Time Sleuth results soon.

[@Hmbs271]

Thanks for this vid! The time sleuth is defo something I'll look into getting at some point.

[@itamarazulai6767]

Thanks for this video Bob, it makes me want to buy a time sleuth and test all of my panels.

[@RastaJediX]

I've wanted one for so long thanks to Bob... but they've unfortunately been OOS for a while 😢

[@richardfosterII7575]

Awesome video. Also like your interviews especially ryan and hd retrovision

[@Wilberon_McBane]

Yes!!!!! A nice nerd hit from Bob! Loved it. Clear and easy to understand, transparent as always and gives people the right info to then go about researching their particular setup (albeit you might need to find/borrow a lag tester to actually do it) Spot on dude! 😎👍

[@robertlawrence9000]

Cool video! So many variations depending on setup. Features like modes that do motion smoothing and image filtering I'm sure can effect that too. Yes I'm curious about faster tvs and monitors too that do 120 hz or higher. I'm wondering how modes like ALLM and VRR how the source would affect latency or lag too but there are so many variables it's impossible to see every kind of setup. Thanks for sharing with us Bob.

[@rexthesheep]

Oh I am SO ready for this!!

[@Agorija]

I dont have testing equipment, but this definitely confirms my suspicions. I'd been playing using RGB Scart to OSSC to my 165hz computer monitor, but was convinced that the best experience required a CRT. I remember plugging them both into my analogue splitter and feeling stupid that the video and game audio were identical. For reference, I noticed a difference when sending the same signal to my TV. I'm convinced that the difference between modern monitors and CRTs have become negligible and have been chided for suggesting so by enthusiasts. Its nice to see at least some validation.

[@shotgunmasterQL]

You know, that BenQ monitor observation was interesting, because I also have a 2010 BenQ monitor which I have tested with one of those PS2 to HDMI dongles (meaning it will be receiving an interlaced signal), and that monitor also does bob deinterlacing to interlaced resolutions, it does support 480i and 576i... Sort of... Because it hates 50Hz, it displays a picture, but it looks like it tries to force the signal into 60Hz by inserting black frames into the 50Hz signal, it looks awful. 60Hz signals look fine. I personally think this could be some sort of oversight, as I have understood bob deinterlacing is a pretty standard way to handle 1080i signals (since the flicker is no longer that visible), so the monitor might just blanket bob deinterlacing all interlaced signals?

[@shotgunmasterQL]

On the subject of deinterlacing on TVs, I have come across surprisingly many TVs that do bob deinterlacing in game mode. My 2017 Sony TV (XE7069) does bob in game mode, and some other type of deinterlacing outside of game mode. It also does bob with the native RCA inputs and I personally don't perceive a difference. I have also come across some cheap Philips 1080p TV that did bob deinterlacing, and a bit more expensive Sharp TV that did bob deinterlacing (not sure about their manufacturing years!), both tested with analog inputs, but I didnt have much time to play with them exactly. I have also come across few other people who have complained about the picture on their TV flickering when playing a console using interlaced signals, one of which I think was Sony X900H? Either that or 900F (it wasnt a 950, nor a J year model, so probably wasn't a 950G either). So it seems like Sony might have some sort of tendency to use bob in their game mode, and it would be interesting if you could test one or two different Sony models. I can personally even say that the deinterlacing on my XE7096 actually changed with a firmware update around 2018-2019 (one to two years after release of the TV), as the picture got a bit less flickery and more blurry, meaning they seemed to have implemented some sort of flicker filter. Before it looked really sharp and raw. So there definitely are games that can do lagless or near lagless deinterlacing, but a lot of it might depend on how much thought is put into the matter. The only reason I can think why the lag would change on some TVs between analog and digital inputs with the same interlaced signal, is some sort of oversight in the processing pipeline. The deinterlacing is set to compliment VHS and DVDs over analog inputs, and maybe the same idea applies here with 1080i (that I mentioned in my other comment)? A less complex deinterlacing method gets used, because 1080i doesn't require that much more work, and then the same method gets scaled down to lower interlaced digital signals as well? At least that would make sense to me. Lastlt, I don't think the 24Hz finding will stay true with all TVs, especially with newer ones, as a lot of modern LCDs deal with 24Hz signals by lowering their native refresh to 48Hz. It would be curious to see how that behaves.

[@defunctchannel942]

Great video, as always. Your work will help us all

[@LusRetroSource]

Awesome video! Really easy to follow.

[@gcolombelli]

14:13 I have a LG 32LH570B that's just like this Sceptre X322BV-HDR: it's a 1366x768 panel mounted upside down. If I connect the MiSTer to it through HDMI, it even gets scaled to it's actual resolution, instead of getting 720p or 1080p and then internally scaled to it's native resolution. It has lots of other weird quirks as well. For example: on YPbPr it can take 240p, 480i or 576i, but it will throw an "incompatible format" message at 288p... On composite it will take 240p, 480i, 288p or 576i, but it always treats everything as interlaced and 50Hz video is strictly black and white. It doesn't matter if the chroma subcarrier is at 3.575611MHz, 3.579545MHz or 4.43361875MHz. This idea might seem ridiculous at first, but I've been able to play European games on my Brazilian Nintendo 64 and my old Panasonic TC20A10 took that bizarre combination of 288p / 576i with a PAL-M chroma carrier just fine over composite. Another LCD TV, an AOC L19W931, got the color properly decoded, but the image was a rolling mess. I've seen some CRT TVs here in Brazil that could take PAL-N signals as well, like those used in Paraguay, Uruguay and Argentina. Via HDMI that wacky LG TV it didn't complain about any weird framerates some arcade cores on the MiSTer threw at it with vsync_adjust set to either 1 or 2. 15:18 I haven't bothered to check lag differences between HDMI and analog inputs on those LCD TVs, but by looking at the service manuals of a few cheap LCD TVs, I'm not surprised at all with those results. Some will have a video ADC chip that spits out something that looks a lot like an SDI signal or it's parallel brother, but quite a few TVs will use what's essentially a USB analog TV capture dongle to be processed by the TV's SoC, so it doesn't surprise me at all that analog inputs may take significantly more time to get to the panel on cheap TVs. I was actually surprised that my crappy 32LH570B was able to differentiate 240p from 480i and do something sensible about it, at least over YPbPr, over composite it always thinks it's 480i.

[@Sebastian_Athea]

I have calibrated Panasonic G30 plasma and it's image quality takes a nose dive in game mode, both gamma and color accuracy get screwed up, I wonder what lag difference between cinema and game mode on it is.

[@djm9937]

excellent ! thanks Bob, very interesting and helpful

[@nickglover]

FYI, most LG OLEDs from the past several years (at least back to the 9 series, maybe even the 8 series) have been 120 Hz panels, so it's not that uncommon. HDTV Test does lag testing on those and in general, it seems like they have (roughly) a single frame of lag regardless of the frame rate used, so 1 frame at 60 Hz, 1 frame at 120 Hz, etc. Maybe that has changed over the years, but it seems to be more-or-less the case. So while on paper the lag is higher at 60 Hz, in practice it's never more than a frame, so it should feel decent to play. I don't know how that plays out at 30 Hz and 24 Hz, though those are divide evenly into 120 Hz, so hopefully it's not a ton more.

[@overnightdelivery]

I can confirm that my C1 Oled tested at roughly one frame of lag compared to another CRT with a Sega Genesis hooked up through Retrotink. Butter smooth frames too. Interestingly though when I hooked up my PC running emulators with variable framerates, it stuttered every second or so no matter what settings I used.

[@Dazdigo]

Hope the new modes allow for lag testing for refresh rates above 60 hz.

[@RetroRGB]

Below. Above 60Hz would require totally different hardware. Which I'll show in my next lag-focused video :)

[@vertujoe2886]

Plasma tv draws vertical lines alongside the horizontal axis. try put latency sensor on both horizontal edges :) By the way, I'm not sure the reading of this kind of sensor is accurate on plasma TVs. because plasma draws so-called "sub fields" and this might mess up the reading. To draw a frame, plasma TVs first divide the input image into RGB components. and only lits one single color of pixels at a sub-scan, by cycling through these single color sub fields very fast, the visual persistence effect composites the full-color image to the viewers. As you can see, there's must be a less-than-one-frame blanking between those sub fields, the mechanism of plasma TVs are wildly different from CRT and LCD TVs which all draw 3 colors at one scan. that's why I think the reading of this sensor might not accurate for them.

[@ewrooney]

I was wondering when you would tackle this topic because after getting a time sleuth I tested my flat panel as well as others in my home and with my Samsung Crystal UHD panel I got the opposite results. Both 240p and 480p showed 23ms of latency(I changed the firmware to only test progressive signals 240.480.720.960.1080 because I don't use interlaced at all)but 720p up to 1080p got 7ms of latency. All the results were in game mode so I scale to one of those three HD resolutions because while a frame and a half isn't awful, if I can get faster response times why not you know. I also wasn't completely sold on the idea that it was universal to all flat panel displays either.

[@ShankMods]

👁️ 👁️ 17:58

[@PescaitoFrito]

Hi, it would be nice to use this measurement tools, to test if we can get better latency by swapping full range of colors 0-255 or 16-235

[@AceTrainerX3]

Regarding the BenQ monitor you used, I actually own a Dell flat panel that does something similar: bob-deinterlacing 480i from my Sega Dreamcast! The aspect ration and sample rate are both very off (though that's not too uncommon with the DC on flat panels), but the thing even supports RGsB. So I can even force certain PS2 games to 480p, and hook them up to the monitor with a component cable + adapter.

[@ChrisGhysel]

3:15 to 3:35 triggered my ASMR. Doesn't happen very often, and it's sure in unexpected places... lol

[@johntorn]

Of course Bob likes Bob Deinterlacing!

[@TheCoolDave]

Great video...this all depends on the display...I had a 65" 4k tv that was 90ms in game mode...no wonder why my COD game went to crap... I did get a new one and very low lag...

[@swungsolid]

We really need a retro gaming tv that supports all these resolutions.

[@Mushroom-3264]

Hey Bob! I have a question. Have you tested the BenQ EL2870U with 240p signals? I was just interested in knowing how the monitor would behave with a 240p signal, since it supports resolutions that cannot be displayed on most computer/gaming monitors.

[@swungsolid]

Hey Bob. Idk if you said but when your using the time sleuth. Should we be paying attention to Cur, m/m or avg? I noticed a huge difference numbers wise between cur and avg. and what does m/m mean?

[@RetroRGB]

I'd ignore the average, as the results can be skewed by moving the TS to the wrong spot.

[@swungsolid]

@@RetroRGB thankyou for the reply Bob. :)

[@swungsolid]

@@RetroRGB hope your having a good day

[@tannerdns9048]

If any of you guys have an LG C2 Oled tv could you please check if the 4:3 input lag is still there?

[@richardfosterII7575]

Love your channel and the post you made for the Swiss gamecube memory card from castlemania games. I ended the sdsp2 but my gamecube doesn't have the 2nd serial port. I have the platinum version and even though I have dol 001 model only the black and indigo have them. But got a sd memory card adapter for 5 bucks on ebay so I can use the gameboy player just have to get extrems files. Didn't what to do and you were the only explaining thanks. What to get a black gamecube eventually bc the sdsp2 is the better option bc it doesn't use the memory card slot.

[@jimmyschmidt14]

I have an old analog LCD TV and there is no lag. It's insane when i compare it to my other TVs. These type are known to the retro NES crowd as being the only other viable option to CRT because those games require no lag.

[@TheA_Gamer554]

wow, you have a 1080i bob deinterlacing monitor, that sounds like the best monitor for pstv + sharpscale for 2x integer scaling at 1080i

[@TheA_Gamer554]

awesome video btw

[@TimDavis77]

Do you have details on the first TV shown?

[@alextirrellRI]

So I think my big TV is a 4K30 native screen -- so now I have no idea how that's going to react with 480/720/1080-60fps sources.

[@JeffersonSoaresSP]

Hi Bob. I'm tempted to buy a Sony TV KLV-S32A10, which has 7500 hours of use. I would like to know if there is considerable lag on this model, which is 1366x768p, and if it would be legal to play Mega Drive or MiSTer FPGA on this TV -since I currently use a 21" Sony CRT TV to play games. Do you think it would be worth it?

[@aaronfifty5]

Curious about what the results using A/V surround sound receivers would look like... mine is loaded with component inputs in the back, which is what I use to hook up the majority of my retro consoles. At the very least, I don't think I've been affected by any noticeable lag... but that could just be me!

[@RetroRGB]

I've tested quite a few AVR's and have been compiling data for an upcoming video. ALL analog inputs (Component, composite, S-Video) add a TON of lag and should never be used for video games. MOST of the HDMI inputs I've tested are zero lag, unless your AVR offers some kind of video processing mode (as opposed to just an HDMI switch).

[@napalmhardcore]

I'm personally of the opinion that it makes more sense to measure either from the bottom (which informs you of the total time it takes to draw the frame) or halfway down as it will be an average (I take my measurements from halfway). If you measure from the top, barely any useful information will have been drawn to the screen. Random anecdote: I took measurements of the TVs at my work and actually found one that refreshed bottom to top.

[@RetroRGB]

I actually JUST debated this on a podcast! Check back tomorrow please :)

[@napalmhardcore]

@@RetroRGB Will do :)

[@RastaJediX]

Bob, is that a Time Sleuth in your pants or are you just happy to see me? It's interesting to see the computer monitors with analog & digital inputs don't add lag. I wouldn't have assumed this. Good to know! Can't wait to see the info on the 120+ Hz displays!

[@krastor8301]

Great video!

[@newgameaaaa]

Can someone help me out here? There are 4 lines. The first is the pixel mode and refresh rate right? What are the other lines 2-4? What is cur, m/m, avg? I think avg is average, but average latency? What are you looking at for latency?

[@NexusARC]

Does anyone have a solution for hooking up a modern PC to a CRT without input lag? From searching for hours it seems like there isn't a method. My best bet is emu drivers and an old graphics card, which is not an option with my set up.

[@rosevillereaper9230]

One thing I know the lg OLED c1 sucks I don't need a sleuth to see/feel the input delay playing mortal Kombat 1 on fight cade..I got a 6 dollar monitor at the thrift store that out performs it...I was in the "gaming mode" too with bfi turned off....crap

[@brockraybon]

I didn’t see the first tv’s model number displayed in the video or the description. What model number is the TV? Thanks Bob.

[@RetroRGB]

I didn't list it, cause I don't think you can buy them anymore and I don't want people hunting one down for a scalped price; A new (or left over rom last year) LG TV should be just as fast, or faster. To answer your question though, it's an LG 43UK6300PUE.

[@brockraybon]

@@RetroRGB Thank you Bob. You always deliver and are a great guy. Have a great day.

[@RetroRGB]

Thanks very much!

[@ericevan12]

I have a question. Sorry if it's dumb or I missed the answer. If I connect a Gamecube with a 480p signal via component cables to a 4K LCD panel, could I expect to get around 5 m/s of lag as shown in the video, or is there added latency somewhere that I'm overlooking?

[@RetroRGB]

Most flat-panels have more latency over the analog inputs, as shown. For GameCube, the best results would be to run it through the RetroTINK 5x and get 1080p (or even 1440p), however that's not cheap. You could run it through a component to HDMI converter, but you're still sending 480p - Some 4KTV's do a great job with 480p and others don't. Converters here: retrorgb.link/cheapdac

[@rsn8887]

Can you test 4:3 resolutions such as 1920x1440 or 1280x960? I wonder if those add lag.

[@RetroRGB]

It's not common, but 4:3 resolutions DO add more lag in a few TV's. Marc from MLiG ran into this last year: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bXyVpYaoo92kjM0

[@MrSpaceVector]

Maybe I'm just being dumb here but even 4ms should be noticeable. Frames aren't something continuous. With 4ms of lag, if a speedrunner needs a frame perfect trick based on reaction, then he's left with 12ms (instead of 16ms on a CRT) to react and get his input to get recognized at the perfect frame. That also obviously applies to fighting games : even if I can't notice 4ms of lag, if I'm playing against someone playing on a CRT, then it's guaranteed assuming the same reaction time and played character, that I'll be losing 1/4 of the hit trades because of I now have 1/4 chance for my input to be registered on the next frame instead of the same as my opponent. I agree that for games where reaction times do not matter much, it should not make much difference, even for a top speedrunner.

[@RetroRGB]

We discuss this in depth during a podcast that airs tomorrow. I stand behind my statement: Unless someone shows me measurable, non-anecdotal evidence, 4ms is 0 to me.

[@persechini]

Probably wouldn't fit a video's budget, but if you could test newer qdoled and microled panels, specially in monitor form, would be cool to see the coming tecnologies

[@Heymisterbadguy]

Unfortunately these are still VERY expensive and hard to find. Specially qd-oled since it just launched

[@overnightdelivery]

I don't see any real advantages of QD-oled over regular Oled when it comes to Retro gaming. If you're talking about HDR games, then QD-Oled would make a difference with extra brightness. Regular Oleds are finally becoming more affordable for regular people at under $1000. Which is still alot to spend on a TV of course.

[@persechini]

@@overnightdelivery I wonder if newer panels with novel tech will be "blessed" with controllers with lower lag, or newer oleds with lower response time

[@overnightdelivery]

@@persechini The QDOled looks promising but will take awhile to drop down in price. My LG Oled and Retrotink 2X Pro tests at only one frame of lag at 60Hz with a Sega Genesis hooked up. It really does feel very close in input lag and motion to my CRT in comparison.

[@persechini]

@@overnightdelivery that's good to know. I have an LG LCD that sometimes shows tearing in gaming mode, doi can't use that, regular mode seems fine but I haven't extensively tested the 2x mini since I got it

[@Prime-1111X]

Is 8 ms response time bad for retro gaming? I do have a couple of scalers. I'm using a Dynex LCD

[@RetroRGB]

In almost all scenario's, 8ms is fine. I'd play confidently, knowing you're having a good gaming experience. If you ever decide to run a competition or tournament with pro-level gamers, you'd probably want to upgrade (or use CRT's, depending on the game)...but really, for anything OTHER than that, you're fine :)

[@suprx]

Curious about using this device on a CRT screen, how much lag it will show?

[@RetroRGB]

0 milliseconds...unless there's overscan. It might show 1ms, but that's not "lag", it's just the overscan. Here's a bunch of examples: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bYeypIKrhpqgnq8

[@lee3r24]

Are these new modes in a soon to be released firmware? as the github hasn't been updated in 3 years?

[@RetroRGB]

They've been there for about a week: time-sleuth.i74.de/

[@CollinKenny]

Thank you Bob!

[@dreamcastspirit1386]

Do you have a recommendation for a 1440p monitor for playing games. Been looking for one recently but don’t really know what things to look for that makes it good.

[@crestofhonor2349]

The MSI Optix MAG274QRF-QD is one of the best 1440p monitors out there

[@dreamcastspirit1386]

@@crestofhonor2349 cool thanks I’ll look into it

[@mindscan420]

Hmm, is it specifically LG C6 that has worse latency? Later ones any better? Mine is a C7

[@crestofhonor2349]

Later models are much better especially the newest ones with hdmi 2.1 and 4k 120hz. They basically have no lag. I have one from 2018 and its also very good and has very little latency

[@RetroRGB]

The newer the LG OLED, the faster the panel. I tested newer ones and they were awesome: www.retrorgb.com/lg-cx-oled-lag-tests-and-ossc-compatibility.html

[@xxxMujTubexxx]

Would running 1080p 75Hz monitor at 1080p 60Hz also add lag?

[@RetroRGB]

I can't say for sure without testing, but if it's a "gaming monitor", it should be fine at either refresh rate.

[@lilylarceny]

guess I'll have to wait til next time. My computer monitor is 165hz and my TV is 120hz. very curious.

[@TheSwartz]

60 fps is actually 16.66666666666666666666666(repeating) milliseconds per frame. *pushes up glasses

[@cortbelmont]

Why your monitor has eyes? While you watch it he looks at you that's creepy... Most 120Hz or 144Hz have around 32ms of lag when you use them with a 60Hz signal, My 144Hz ultrawide is good for upscalers at 60Hz but you have to swallow the 2 frames of lag, now 2 frames against the CRT, the time Sleuth most likely will read just 1 frame, cause every digital panel must keep 1 frame before starting to draw, so an LCD that has 1 frame of lag against a CRT, is a creo lag LCD. A 120Hz mode in upscalers and MiSTer will bring lots of benefits like less lag on 120Hz and 144Hz panels around 8ms and reduced motion blur with rolling scan BFI on OLEDs. LG removed the 120Hz BFI on this years models though...

[@RetroRGB]

That's absolutely not true. I've personally tested quite a few 120 and 144hz TV's and monitors with a Time Sleuth at 1080p60 and got under 16ms...many much, MUCH lower.

[@Jagasian]

It is not 4ms lag. It is 16.6ms + 4ms = 20.6ms of display lag. That is not the same as zero ms lag. Lag accumulates in a gaming system: USB input lag, wireless input lag, display lag, and networking lag all add up. This is why it is beneficial to have a 120hz frame rate instead of 60hz. It helps reduce the display lag considerably.

[@RetroRGB]

Please check the podcast that's going live today that digs in deep about this topic.

[@segafrog]

everybody hertz

[@overnightdelivery]

Basically One Frame of lag is hardly noticeable. Two frames is detectable and slightly annoying if you're used to CRT response time but still playable. 3+ Frames is unacceptable if playing games that are critical on timing and not fun in general.

[@dbnpoldermans4120]

Out Run upright

[@bloomerb4162]

So it doesn't matter that the lcd is downscaling to a simple white rectangle instead of an intricate image? What TV are you using? I wouldn't expect much latency in newer 4k lcds with game mode and backlight off. That lcd monitor probably looks like garbage to without any processing. I think 1080p plasma would be the best way to go since it looks closer to how a crt does.

[@Deltax5]

They gotta get LCD's to 0 lag like crt's used to be. Maybe put a fgpa in it, maybe that will help. FPGA in everything. So manufacture can change the chip instead via firmware update of us buying a new one all the time. Cool device. Just watch your video's and other youtubers to see what to buy. Low on cash. Don't like making a mistake.