Do Paul & Mark believe That Jesus was Physically Raised From The Dead?

[@theemptycross1234]

I don't know why people say that Paul is the only witness (or first witness) of the resurrection. To be a "witness" he would have needed to see Jesus alive, dead, and alive again. Paul had visions, dreams or drug trips when he "saw Jesus resurrected". Or, most probably, he lied. Exactly the same as people that every Sunday see (or feel) Jesus during church service. Or when people see Elvis.

[@singingunbound9705]

I think the idea is Paul is the only writer to have claimed to have seen the resurrected Jesus (in vision form). No one else claims that.

[@theemptycross1234]

@@singingunbound9705 my problem is in the use of the word "witness". One cannot claim to be the witness of a resurrection unless they have first seen the person die. Especially Paul never claims Jesus had been seen by anybody while he was alive.

[@I0888]

Salamun Alaykum Don't make empty claims , and mock without evidence based knowledge and Truthfullness... Else you may become a liar , and we dislike lies .... Inkuntum Saadiqeen ?

[@I0888]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/j6DZZ6F7ZZmZp6Msi=Fe8Gi5F89wU2ZMbz

[@a.maya12]

Paul is a political figure to consolidate the Roman objectives of regulating tumultuous societities. He said what was needed as well as Constatine Flavious did...

[@vikingdemonpr]

I see Dr. Tabor, I click and like inmediately

[@G4L4CTIC]

That’s scary. You see him and you like?

[@ByronBromley-x1o]

This made my day . Watched it twice. I've been studying the book of mark on my own with Greek for over a year. The only book I read. Thank both of you

[@doctorholliday1785]

Would love to see more collabs with Adam Green

[@johnthomas753]

Thanks!

[@BDnevernind]

We know Jesus was buried because the risen Jesus told Paul he was buried? What? Do these guys even hear themselves? Paul says he learned nothing that he preached from men, only from scriptures and his hallucinations of Christ, but now he is our "earliest witness"? Some scholarship lol.

[@travisjazzbo3490]

TRUE!!!

[@henryglurpenshtorpe6543]

There are no “witnesses” to the resurrected Jesus that left any account of it except for Paul. So, not only is he our earliest witness, he is our only witness. He writes about other witnesses, but they can’t be verified because they left no personal accounts of it.

[@BDnevernind]

@@henryglurpenshtorpe6543 My dude. One cannot attest to the resurrection of someone who they did not know in life. Even if we grant that Paul hallucinated a man claiming to be the risen Jesus, we still have two very big problems. 1, it was a hallucination, because NOBODY contests that if Jesus lived, he died before Paul ever "witnessed" him. Not even Paul. And 2, he did not know what Jesus looked like, so he is not a remotely reliable witness. You simply cannot identify someone you never saw before. Paul is NOT a witness by any meaningful definition of the word. It is beyond ridiculous to call him that.

[@BDnevernind]

@@henryglurpenshtorpe6543 My dude. One cannot attest to the resurrection of someone who they did not know in life. Even if we grant that Paul hallucinated a man claiming to be the risen Jesus, we still have two very big problems. 1, Paul was mistaken, because people do not rise from the dead. So the only witness Paul claims to base his creed on was already dead. And 2, he never saw the living Jesus figure whom modern Christians claim was buried, so he is not a remotely reliable witness to whether who he thought he saw was THE Jesus. You simply cannot identify someone you never saw in life. Paul is NOT a witness by any meaningful definition of the word. It is beyond ridiculous to call him that.

[@jamesdewane1642]

Nicely written, well-argued. However, you make one unsupported assertion: people do not rise from the dead. I imagine the most you can say is that "rise from the dead" is a nonsense statement to you. You seem to assume that that statement has no referent or perhaps several different referents in psychological processes, and this may be correct. Or it may be describing something that is unknown to you. Dean Radin. Dan Winter.

[@tammyg8031]

Hey, great seeing you again ❤!! Love your content and open mind

[@alexlarsen6413]

Always a pleasure listening to dr. Tabor making sense out of the mess that's Christianity! 👍👍

[@harlanlang6556]

When I was a teen and doing my best to be a Christian, because that was the only faith in town, I always had a hard time believing in the resurrection of Jesus physically. I felt that there must be something wrong with me that I couldn't honestly say that I believed this, when my friends had no trouble with it. When I heard Christians say that this belief is the core belief in Christianity, I thought that I must not be a true Christian. Then I took world history as a freshman in college. When I learned about the other world religions, I realized that children inherit their religion, their beliefs, from their families and culture just as you mentioned. And I realized that there is no objective way to determine that one religion is more true than any other. It would be like saying that my 8th grade teacher is greater than my 2nd grade teacher because she taught me algebra. Each historical period received the teachings most appropriate to that age. If Christianity is losing its grip on people, it's because its Message is dated. Its concept of God isn't believable in this age of science where we're discovering a better understanding of the universe. And we're literate with access to the internet, whereas the people of Jesus' day were mainly illiterate and uninformed even concerning the nature of the earth and all its people and religions. It's wonderful that Dr. Tabor can show from his analysis of the scriptures that the concern with the physical body was not the point of early Christians. We also have much new data from NDE experiences where people "die" for a matter of minutes and are then revived with stories of what they experienced when they were not in their bodies. They claim to have had a "body" of light which looks just like the physical body, much like Paul wrote about. And these reports are from people of all cultures and religions, including atheists. People of ancient times must have had reports like this, such as in Plato's Republic where he writes of a dead warrior reviving. The difference today is that modern medical intervention allows for more "dead" people to be revived. NDERF.org is a great site for investigating and reading some of these experiences.

[@travisjazzbo3490]

I wish everyone was introduced to a course like that or something like 'History of World Religions' of 'Study of Ancient Mythologies'. Any or all of those courses would snap people out of the religion mindset when the reality of sensible education enters their mind to wrestle with the FAITH indoctrination

[@harlanlang6556]

@@travisjazzbo3490 One reason I was so impressed with the course was that I didn't come from a religious family. I was not indoctrinated as a child. At 15 I began my spiritual search by going to a church and a year later joining that church. The church presented their creed every Sunday without any rationalization or opportunity to question. "Questioning" was a sign of not believing, so I didn't ask questions. Nobody knew what I was thinking, what I was doubting. I later discovered the Baha'i Faith which did encourage questioning, and did recognize the legitimacy of all the great world religions, that they are all from the same Source, each with a particular Message adapted to the needs of each era. And the miracle stories found in all religions are not meant to be literally true, but have symbolic and metaphorical meanings....according to Baha'i. It all made sense to me, and made it possible for me to say that I do believe in Jesus.....and Buddha, and Muhammed, and Zoroaster, and Baha'u'llah who lived in the 19th century with teachings tailored to the needs of the modern age.

[@epicofgilgamesh9964]

*Paul (c. 50 AD)* The earliest account is in Paul's first letter to the Jesus sect community he founded in Corinth, written some time in the 50s AD: For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins *according to the Scriptures,* that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day *according to the Scriptures,* and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. (1Cor 15:3-8) The first thing worth noting here is that fact that Paul includes himself in his list of those to whom the risen Jesus "appeared". *Both his references to his encountering the risen Jesus and the three (slightly different) description of this encounter in Acts all make it clear that this was a vision - a light from heaven and a disembodied voice - not an encounter with a physically-revived former corpse returned to life.* The verb Paul uses for all these appearances he mentions is the same one - ὤφθη meaning "appeared, was seen" - in each case. He makes *no distinction* between the appearance of Jesus to him and the appearances to others. Paul then goes on to scold some of the Corinthians for saying there was not going to be a general resurrection of the dead - as already noted above, this idea was not universally accepted by all Jews and it seems to have become disputed in the Corinthian community of the Jesus sect. Paul asks "if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?" (v. 12) and goes on to call Jesus' resurrection "the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep", ie the pre-figurement of the coming general resurrection. *He goes on to address the question of whether this coming resurrection will involve the rising of physical bodies and says in response "How foolish!". Then he goes on to explain that the coming general resurrection will not be physical but involve "spiritual bodies".* *If Jesus' resurrection is the pre-figurement of the coming general resurrection of the dead, therefore, it is clear that for Paul his rising did not involve a physical body.* This is why Paul's references to and insistence on the fact of the rising of Jesus makes no mention of the evidence of a physical revivification of his dead body that features in some of the later accounts: the empty tomb, discarded grave cloths, people touching Jesus, Jesus eating and his physical form flying up into heaven. *For Paul, at this early stage of the development of the story, the risen Jesus is a spiritual concept involving visions, not physical encounters.* *Answer* What-evidence-is-there-for-Jesus-Christs-death-burial-and-resurrection/answer/Tim-ONeill-1 - Quora

[@singingunbound9705]

Dr. Tabor is always thoughtful, fair and engaging.

[@marktwain5232]

I LOVED this truly BIG PICTURE discussion! As an Anti-War Veteran, this is very interesting scholarship in support of my own personal "Zoroastrian-Gnostic-Baha'i Archetypal Astro-Theological" view that the Teachings of Jesus planted into the Heart of Man back then would Resurrect as Divine Attributes within Mankind on the "Third Day"1,000 year interval after His Death. I believe that time is NOW in the Planetary World Age Passage from the "Age of Pisces" to the "Age of Aquarius" in the Internet Age essentially mysteriously started by Bill Fernandez introducing Steve Jobs to Steve Wozniak in Cupertino, CA back in 1969. We are all now communicating at the speed of Light in this hour 55 years later because of that supreme moment now in the shadow of looming Nuclear Weapons at High Noon on 01/20/25. You began your journey with "Hamlet's Mill", Derek, in the Greek 25,920 Year "Great Platonic Year!" You may yet end it there too with me!

[@harlanlang6556]

The first communication at the speed of light was May 24, 1844 when Morse sent a telegraph message from Washington D.C. to Baltimore, "What hath God wrought?"

[@grit1679]

The part in Mark 16.18 about picking up serpents and not being hurt is clearly a reference to Acts 28.1-6 with Paul being bit by a snake when he's shipwrecked on Malta and the islanders being amazed he didn't die. If you believe Mark 16.9-20 is legitimate, then it would be Jesus foreshadowing what was soon to occur; if you believe it's illegitimate, then it reads as a later writer trying to justify Paul's legitimacy.

[@ChrisBrayPhotos]

Around 35:00 when Dr Tabor says how Mark would be offended by his ending being revised, I thought of the ending of Inception and howin a similar way it's left to the viewer to work out if Decaprio was back in reality or still in a dream. Imagine in 50 years someone does a recut of the ending and explains that actually Decaprio was 100% definitely in reality and they all live happily ever after. Totally would suck out all the artistic intention from the original! As always I love these discussions and especially Dr Tabor! Keep em coming 👌

[@kimbronun6649]

Jesus never left, his spirit never left.

[@3dsculptopia]

Great one thank you both.

[@TraversEvelina]

I really appreciate your efforts! I have a quick question: My OKX wallet holds some USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). What's the best way to send them to Binance?

[@TheDanEdwards]

Not related to the topic of the day, but still can be useful: ever since you moved yourself into that corner the wall-corner stands out visually, and I suspect it is also acoustically detrimental. There are both absorption and scattering wall treatments one can get at not a large cost, that would help visually and acoustically. You can even make them yourselves (and try some color too.) Avoiding corners is one of those things when it comes to visual and aural experiences that can elevate your presentation.

[@travisjazzbo3490]

Jesus from Outer Space Baby!

[@sethspeigel8462]

Hmm maybe the original fathers saw him as more of a second Enoch as God took Enoch and it got changed by the Greek converts and ultimately Imperial Rome

[@glennalphonse9711]

Hello I may be wrong but isn't Jesus the only Divine person who is supposed to have died by the hands of humans. When Jesus said NO one can take my life I lay it down and I can lift it up. So if that's what people think Jesus was crucified by humans you need to think again. 🤔 The Apostles thought he was a Ghost he told them do Ghost have Flesh and bone as I do . Ghost doesn't need to eat. Come on children know better than this.😮.

[@johnthomas753]

Sacrifice; the giving up of something for something better. If Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God how does Jesus meet the definition of sacrifice ?

[@michaelp3951]

The ending of Mark occurs in the Eastern Peshitta which to me is good enough evidence that it is in the original text.

[@djangohill55]

The crucifixion is spiritual. Doesn't mean he didn't die and "rise from the dead" (have a "near death experience") during his "forgotten childhood". When Jesus was forced to suffer the Sins of Man, and the adults who should have protected him became blind to his injuries even though they had eyes to see, deaf to his cries even though they had ears to hear, and misunderstanding of the truth even though they have a mind to think for themselves instead of relying in faith in their pedophile fathers.

[@ardalla535]

Since both the writers of Matthew and Luke (and anyone else really) felt the need to change Mark, it needs hardly to be emphasized that they felt totally free to do just that. Mark was not regarded as the 'Word of God'. He was just some guy giving his opinion. So ... all this begs the question: Why didn't the writers of the Long Ending edit Mark to take out the verse where the women went away afraid and said nothing to anyone? No one liked Mark's ending anyway. It has been argued that Mark was too well known at the time to mess around with the original ending; the changes would have been spotted immediately. That doesn't make sense because they changed Mark at will anyway --- well known or not. The original proto-Mark was butchered at will, almost as if he was not regarded as a Christian at all. I think there is a good chance that proto-Mark was written much later than assumed and was the work of the school of Marcion. Since proto-Mark was rejected by the early church, it became a free for all in a rush to debase his account of Jesus. Proto-Mark was the original Rodney Dangerfield.

[@nickfiorello3916]

Have you hosted Sam Shamoun or William Albrecht? Good Day Sir

[@berglen100]

Neville Goddard knew what stories meant all parables about your kingdom inside you all Men live them not historic or outside geographic in time repeats like Eccl tells when where will all now timelessness all live time flesh and blood bodies die was is reborn but energy never was or needs in timelessness actually life all man bodies male female parables seperates as two bodies but isn't of eternal sparks we all go back same one power calling all levels name I AM them all weak to strong so all beliefs same name so none in flesh blood can teach timelessness only exsperience no time involed so revelation parable isn't of this outside world live life has death of bodies like outside anything shadows have all times.

[@giuseppesavaglio8136]

'Do Paul & Mark believe That Jesus was Physically Raised From The Dead?' UH maybe, but all we have is .. Literary raised.

[@smillstill]

2 Peter1:16 is most likely referring to the baptism of Jesus, not the transfiguration. Also, returning from where he was sent could refer to Nazareth or Galilee, not necessarily Heaven. Also, the most straightforward way of understanding Jesus's body not being in the tomb and Jesus having risen would be Jesus was raised bodily and the the body left for Galilee, not that his spirit went to heaven and his body dissolved. They could make some conclusion about the body being transformed or transfigured, but nothing specific is given in Mark. I'm not sure why he makes these controversial claims with such finality. 1 Cor is 54 CE or maybe up to 90 or 100 CE, since we don't hear about Paul's letters until 2nd century. P.S., Some people thought the kid in Gethsemane and Bobiensis ending is signature (or by modern scholars, a literary device) depicting the one who grew up and wrote the Gospel of Mark who was indeed an eye witness. Derek's ending is code he is secretly part of the Red Pill Manosphere! ;)

[@pragmaticcrystal]

We Are MythVision‼️

[@johnthomas753]

A "young man" sitting at the right side of the tomb dressed in a white robe." Hmmmm very interesting. What was a "young man" dressed in a white robe doing in jesus's tomb?

[@azaleajoke]

Could it be that after Julius Caesar died, some of his followers came to the levant and started their caesar cult, which molded into Christianity? Also, I am not really sure that Paul and the other apostles were good friends of each other, as Paul warns his group of false teachers who came to his group (physical). Lastly, I think that Josephus is not a very trustworthy historical source. His dates do not correspent with himself and other texts such as Tacitus. I believe that as his country was demolished he could not defend the zealous actions any longer and tried to save what was left.

[@joyceruserious7920]

So the earliest stories have a gnostic spirit body...sounds like gnostic mystery school teaching

[@rogermedlin8058]

I wish Dr. Tabor was my neighbor!

[@TyronSmith-yo5tt]

Get Dr Bob back on,unless he's gone on to meet his maker.

[@a.maya12]

Religions are subjective. Why to discuss, investigate objectively something which is not? I think Talbot studies history of the literary history... Kind of epistemology of a specific- religions literature, religions narrative (figures, mean figures and contexts, allegories, literally styles, meanings of words, and so on).

[@HansZarkovPhD]

The more people realize christianity is just fiction, the more the believers start to equivocate, change definitions and imterpretations, and start mental gymnastics to keep the myth going.

[@henryschmit3340]

Yes, they do.

[@kunjimoncm1501]

The spirit of Jesus didn't die. Then how will resurrect, spiritually? Where did he gone after that, if he did resurrect with body? It is only a manipulation of apostles about the spiritual resurrection of the son of man, according to the Issaia 53. It's not phisical death. The world declared that he is dead spiritually. It is not Jesus

[@SangYoonLee-ht1wf]

Let's be thankful and respect our creator. In light of things those with power do daily in the world, it seems like Adam, Eve, we are prone to doing horrendous things with power and money, even far as commit awful things to our own parents and the creator. I don't know the source of the proclivity for abuse of power committed throughout history. Even king David exploited his power as a king to obtain the woman he wanted, which God rightly punished him for.

[@joeyking3908]

Adam and Eve were fictional

[@peterhook2258]

what you have ended up doing..is making Yeshua proud. Keep it up. Oh only thing is....he is really the arm of God lol. Peace. But you will get that part in time. no hurry

[@Desiree_BB]

No toilets in Heaven? 😊

[@richardplascencia6071]

Mocking Jesus be careful Mr expert another critic who's going to lake of 🔥

[@TheDanEdwards]

You sound scared.

[@singingunbound9705]

The whole burning he'll thing is a late invention and addition to the story. A lot of mistranslation from the Greek too. I don't think anyone really needs worry.

[@johnthomas753]

Any person / religion that threatens with violence (eternal damnation) is guilty of the worst sin against a human soul. Be careful you may get what you believe...

[@talonanthony]

Wow, imagine going through life always scared of an imaginary lake of fire. Sad!!!

[@danjensen8412]

This is all such garbage. I would be more than happy to formally debate either Derek or Dr. Tabor over this issue. If the case against the traditional view is so very convincing, then there should be no reason to hide from me.

[@Necroman98]

Email them then, they might not even read the comments

[@decades5643]

What specifically do you disagree with?

[@danjensen8412]

@@decades5643 Pretty much all of it. Paul and Mark absolutely believed in the physical resurrection of Jesus. I cannot lay out that full case in a comment and I'm not about to try. But, I would be happy to do so in a formal debate as stated.

[@ChrisBrayPhotos]

"this is all such garbage" definitely the right way to request a formal debate from a 40+ year expert on this topic

[@karkha2]

You'd have a hard time debating me, much less these guys.

[@davidbetancourt4038]

NT Wright’s, "The Resurrection of the Son of God" presents assorted views of resurrection within Judaism. There were and are a plethora of sects within the Jewish faith much like Christianity today. Converts took these perspectives with themselves. So I'm confused by statements such as, "the earliest Christian view of resurrection faith", when there wasn't an overall consensus. Paul has more than one mode of perception pertaining to resurrection.