Private Pilot 101 - Avionics Are CRAZY Expensive! Is It Even Worth It?

Can you tell me why these electronics have to cost so darn much?
My partner and I are faced with making some hard decisions. Should we spend a tremendous amount of money to upgrade our Mooney M20C? If so, what path should we take. It will take some unique financial strategies to make this work. But assuming we can pull it off, there is still the open question of what path makes most sense.
#avionics #mytimetofly #generalaviation

[@loupitou06fl]

My partner and I asked ourselves the exact same questions a few months back and we ended up on the "cry once" side: G3x, GTN750, GFC500, dual radios & NAVs, we only keeping the transponder form current panel. Plan to sell our 430w and 530w to save some mooney. We locked the price about 6 months ago so our total cost was cheaper even including the 750GTN. My recommendation is shop around, we got 3 quotes for the same options at 3 local shops and we got 20k$ difference between the highest and lowest quotes. Last thing to consider, you can more easily negotiate labor hours for the install and save money on labor if you do all at once. I know it sounds appealing to postpone GPS or autopilot upgrades but every time I asked for separate quotes for these, the sum of labor was way higher than the "do all at once option", not to mention cutting the new panel once. Good luck with your quest, don't hesitate to contact me if you want to see the quotes I got. Last thing : be patient, we placed the deposit on our avionic package in March and we just got the last piece of equipment this week to start the job !!!!

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thank you so much Pierre! This is a phenomenal summary, with some great strategy. I'm pinning this comment so I can come back to it!

[@DavidWade66]

So what was the final cost of the vendor you went with?

[@engineernels1057]

Yes final cost would be great ! Shopping around myself

[@57eleven1]

I just upgraded my panel with the Garmin 375, the Garmin 275, the basic one for around $3,200 and the Bendix King Aerocruz 100 autopilot. That’s all you need for GPS IFR certified with autopilot. Total- approx $22,500. I installed a Trig radio, it was $1,500 to buy and $1,200 to I stall and I installed a Gizmo to mount my Garmin 660 to have backup and a larger screen. It will Bluetooth with the 375, and 275 and have ADS-B in and out as well. I wanted a larger screen larger than the 375. The 660 is not IFR certified it’s a backup. I spent about $28,500 for everything. It works amazing and looks amazing. I’ll do a KZbin video of it soon. Good luck! It’s insane the amount of info there is to learn

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks for sharing Scott, I just checked for that video but don't see it. It's great you were able to make such excellent upgrades for a reasonable cost.

[@ryanjeffrey1600]

Thank you for breaking down the cost unlike lots of other youtube pilots who seem to get free stuff with no talk of what it cost.

[@TheBarzook]

Hi, like I said last week, I'm right where you guys are with my M20J. I'm only doing 2 G5s and GFC500 and it's 30k installed.So I spoke with the guy and we came up with a few ideas to lower the cost. The first thing is to start with only one G5 (the direction indicator). In case of vacuum failure, it can be converted rapidly to an attitude indicator. The down side of this is that you're still dependant on that dreaded vacuum pump. The next thing we looked at is the AP. Just to lower the workload, the minimum for IFR would be to have the roll axis controlled by the AP. The altitude would be nice, but is more easily managed than the direction. So I would still have to buy the GFC, but would only install the servo in the wings. These 2 modification brought down the price to about 18k. Granted I have a "half-assed-still-vacuum" plane, but having the G5 gives me a really good back up and I have my roll under control in IMC.

[@MyTimeToFly]

I’m glad you found some cost savings, with this plan I just fear having to go back in the panel too often to add more stuff. I feel like the lower total cost will be doing it all at once. So much to think about!!!

[@grillingwithwoos]

We did dual GI275 and redid the panel on the pilot side for about 16k total IIRC. We already had a JPI 900, a gtx345 and a gns530w so we had cost savings there but the dual gi275 are very powerful little instruments. They made my IFR training and checkride so much easier. Sure we would’ve liked either a g3x or the dynon hdx but this, tied with what we already had, made the most sense. In the future we’d like to add autopilot but that’s a conversation for another time. We talked about upgrading to a 650 or a 750 but the cost vs the added features just don’t make sense

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks so much for sharing, I totally understand your decision, makes great sense.

[@williamkennedy2069]

I forgot to mention, if you make friends with some of these shops that installs these equipment, maybe you get your hands on some used g5s, and other used equipment somebody else who upgraded to this path and it's now upgraded to the bigger panels you might be able to get a big savings there, only problem there is you have to have cash and be ready to buy immediately

[@MyTimeToFly]

I’m certainly open to used gear, I’ll call around once we know our direction.

[@BitwiseMobile]

As a prior Avionics Technician in the Navy I have to say that avionics are very complex. They have to have built in redundancies, and they have to be very fault tolerant. They have to be able to co-exist with other avionics without affecting their function, and it needs to function without being affected by other avionics. This means RF and other interferences have to be measured and accounted for. They spend years researching and testing before changing avionics, and there is a reason for it. You might think, oh, it's just a simple LED screen (in my day they were CRT - but I digress), but the underlying processing to get the telemetric data from your aircraft onto that screen is very complex. The display of telemetric data has to be fast, accurate, and, again, fault tolerant.

[@MyTimeToFly]

I certainly appreciate you commenting with your knowledge and experience. I also appreciate the complexity that exists in creating avionics that work exceptionally well. My biggest issue is the price difference between experimental and certified.

[@5695q]

@@MyTimeToFly , it's called getting that TSO plus approvals for installation in the more popular models of aircraft costing a lot more than just getting the equipment functional for experimental use, granted the experimental stuff is as good as certified with few problems but the certification costs drive the final price.

[@MyTimeToFly]

I certainly agree that the TSO is the cost driver, I just fail to see why all of the hoops need to be jumped through. There should be a fast track for items that will clearly work in all makes / models.

[@5695q]

@@MyTimeToFly Cost to certify is one of the main reasons the airframe manufacturers haven't really brought anything new to the market, just rehash the same design they have been making for years. Our Mooney's have gone from wood wing and tail 150hp short body to all metal 250hp+ long bodies all on the same type certificate.

[@MyTimeToFly]

That’s crazy, I didn’t realize they were on the same type certificate. I now understand why airframes don’t change. It’s less about them being great, and more about an unwillingness to pay for the change.

[@libertine5606]

There is one thing I would think about. I had a Garmin G600 in my Mooney Bravo and it was great. However, whenever I would get the big red X's due to a software problem or a magnetometer recalibration the plane was down for a month! The local shop didn't do "computer stuff" so you had to schedule with the specialty Garmin shop and that was at least a two week wait. Then they had to work on it. Then I had to schedule when I could pick it up. So, by the time I got the plane back it would be a month. This is why I an going with a standard panel solution this time. You can't fly around with a big hole in your panel but you could replace with a backup unit and ship the malfunctioning unit and keep flying if it will go in a standard panel.

[@utah20gflyer76]

I was in a very similar situation with my G model Mooney, wanted to upgrade to IFR. I think you are confusing having a absolute world class panel with having a capable IFR panel. In my case I replaced one nav/com and a kln89b gps with a Garmin 355 GPS/com and a Garmin 275 HSI to replace the DG and one of my CDI, also installed a Garmin USB charger. This gives me quite good capabilities and I spent 16k. If you spend 70k on an old Mooney you are over improving it. You can get what you NEED for 20k or less. Now a year later and I'm ready to put the second 275 AI in for an additional 5k. That still only puts me at 21k. Deal in terms of need rather than what you want in some sort of alternative reality. You can make it happen.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks man, no doubt you are right. Lucky for me (I think), I can't afford the full shot anyway...so I'll definitely follow the incremental approach!

[@gringoloco8576]

this is absolutely correct. I have a fully equipped M20E but it's an older panel upgrade. it has a WAAS 430 GPS and an STEC30 Autopilot with a CDI and a VOR. You don't really need to go huge. I am using it for my CFII. I wanted to go more digital with the G3x or even to a Garmin 650 but realized I just don't need to once I looked into the cost.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Makes great sense! Good luck as you pursue that CFII

[@spiro5327]

@@MyTimeToFly Hey dude, the above comment makes very good sense and will greatly narrow down the cost for now. Thanks

[@MyTimeToFly]

Most definitely!

[@kyleswishfoundation5327]

I have a 1983 Mooney M20J and I fly 100-200 hours a year, mostly filed IFR with about 30% in actual as I am in the Northeast US. I think the point has been made already between "capable" IFR and "best-class" IFR panels. I really required "best in class" with no compromise. That may not be the case for others. You also have things like the panel itself, lighting etc. All to be considered. Here is what I am doing right now - keep in mind i already have a GTN750 and a very capable KAP 150 auto pilot with GPSS: Removing the AI and DG along with the vacuum system; adding 2-GI275's, removing the KT76A transponder; adding a GTX330ES transponder; putting in LED ring lighting, adding two probes to the JPI730 for MP/RPM; re-configuring the entire panel and cutting a new panel overlay for the pilot side; removing any old wiring and properly rewiring anything that is needed; general clean up under the glare shield. All this for a mere $26k... fyi I just had an engine out and needed to replace the engine at $30k. The shop I am using is one of the top shops in the country. The kind of shop Garmin and King send their broken equipment to to get fixed. My quote was $2000 higher than the next lowest. But this shop is known for high-quality work with no compromise on craftsmanship. They just don't have customer complaints or long-term issues (to be clear every shop has an issue, but these guys take care of their customers needs). So you get what you pay for. I also think that by having best in class, I add value to the plane in the long run. When/if I upgrade the plane and sell this one, it likely would sell at top of market value.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Great stuff man, I like your thought process. Knowing what you really need is key here! Thanks for sharing!!!

[@jingle1161]

If I were to be doing a lot of IFR, I would stack my cockpit with the most advanced stuff I can find. If it's too much money, walk away from it and stay VFR. Don't wanna be in IMC thinking "I wish I had.."

[@flyer617]

Earlier this year I bought my first plane. I wanted a good IFR platform with decent avionics so paid a hefty price. I didn't want to buy a less expensive plane and have it be in the shop for months redoing the panel. Wanted to fly it this summer! It's not perfect but pretty darn nice: GTN-750, The vertical Aspen and an EI engine monitor mainly. Previously I flew a lot of Garmin gear and steam gauges. The GTN-750 is awesome. I was skeptical of the Aspen but have grown to like it. Surprised when I was in a hold to see the racetrack on it! I wouldn't change it at this point. I am not super happy with the EI engine monitor but a big part of that is that it was mounted way over to the right so it takes me too long glancing over at it during the takeoff roll to see that everything is in the green. From that angle on their display it is not immediately obvious that "all gauges in the green." With steam gauges I can take a really quick glance but the slider indicators are just too small from where I sit during bright days. Easier at night and if I move my head to the right the colors seem better differentiated. However, it does show, display and record an amazing amount of information. I still have one vacuum instrument, a backup AI. Which is beginning to go intermittent. My plan is that at next year's annual I will replace it with a GI-275 and remove the vacuum pump and system. Even that is expensive. I got a quote of $7k for that job from a larger avionics shop. Aviation is not inexpensive.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Great summary Peter, I’m glad to hear you found a plane that fit your needs. This gives me a lot to think about.

[@jeremydwayne]

I have a 1963 Piper Cherokee 180. I'm planning on putting in 3 Garmin 275's (HSI, AI, EIS) during my annual in March and pre-wiring to save labor costs in the future for a GFC 500 autopilot and upgrading my 430 WAAS GPS to a 650Xi. I'm doing other things as well, but the estimate was about $18k in parts and $19k in labor. Honestly, the easiest way to save money, from what I've been told, is to just do as much work as you can at the same time and to do it during the annual so you're not taking the plane apart multiple times. You may be able to owner assist with some of the work too to save on labor. The other thing to consider with the G3X and other MFD screens is you will also need a custom panel, which will easily run you an extra 10k. Avionics are back ordered really far out too, so plan 6-9 months out just to order everything.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks so much Jeremy, you make a lot of sense here. Best of luck on your upgrades!

[@purplemonkeydishwasher9360]

If I can add my two cents here, I could suggest to you the GI 275s. The beauty of going with an instrument like the GI275 is that it has the capability to integrate with a wide range of legacy Nav's especially brands like Bendix King. So as long as your old navigation equipment is on the capability list it will talk to them. And also there is minimal panel modification necessary. I work for an authorized Garmin dealer in Canada and we get alot of customers who just want a bit of glass and to rip out their vacuum system and gauges. The GI 275 is a no brainer. Some of them lean towards dual G5s for the price difference, but those are limited to really only integrating with Garmin equipment unlike the 275. The way to look at G5s and GI275s is that the 5 came from experimental into the certified realm, whereas the 275 was always intended for certified and it's system architecture is closely related to the G500's. Both are great but you get so much more from the 275s than you ever will from the 5.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks for the great input! I looked at the 275 integration list in aircraft spruce, and don’t see any GPS units other than Garmin. Do you know if a more complete list exists somewhere?

[@lisaleedavidson]

You are right, the only way to actually save money on avionics is experimental and you can’t install those in your certified aircraft. The best start would probably be Two G5’s which would allow the removal of the vacuum system. You could do an owner assist install at your shop but would have to know a little about building a wiring harness and can bus. You’ll need to install a GMU-11 in your wingtip. That combined with a gtx375 outside air temp sensor and you’ve got your IFR navigator , ADS-B in/out transponder with a great capability. Change the G5’s to GI275’s and you’ve got synthetic vision as well and future expandability. I agree the G3x touch is a better deal than the G500Txi, 600Txi or any other flavors as the G3x touch comes with synthetic vision unlocked and a lot of other options unlocked. I recently purchased a G3x touch 460 with GMU11, the complete engine analyzer, GDL52r, Gns650xi, 275 audio panel, G5 for backup, regulated AOA pitot with panel top visual indicator 29b and 27 units to interface everything to the G3x plus my right mag will be replaced with a Electroair EIS. My costs will be just under $40k but I’m doing all the wiring and install under the avionics shop and my A&P IA. I’m also starting with an ifr platform gns480 Garmin SL30, SL10m audio panel, JPI 830 with STEC 55x autopilot. If your A&P is willing he can sign off on a G5 install and vacuum system removal which is relatively easy.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks for all the detail Joel! I really want to pursue the owner assisted route, regardless of our exact direction.

[@stanleyedwards3023]

Used G5’s are coming on the market now….I bought a pair for $2200. Used 29b , used Garmin audio panel and new magnometer along with new gnc355….Cessna 172 with stec50 still working. Under 10k for all I did most labor , I’m,an AP and Garmin dealer did the final wiring and certification. I saved a bunch on labor.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Great work, you've done well!

[@davidcollier3604]

Here is my advice and where I am heading with my Grumman replace the current GPS with either a used GTN 650 or GNS 430W. Replace the transponder with a GTX 345 transponder . You can save bit by interfacing it with the 650 or the 430W. Install a single G5 as an HSI w/ GMU-11 and GAD-29B. Keep the Narco Nav 122 and KX-155. Consider refurbishing the KX-155 to include led displays and a better (less worn) Face plate or trade it on one that is already done for Com2. Options could be done later, add the 2nd G5 as PFD, Replace the Audio Panel with a GMA-345. Hope this helps. Gets all the capability, just not as fancy on glass panel stuff. I think it is more appropriate for a vintage aircraft.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks for the detailed thoughts David, I like where you're going with this!

[@yamilcabrera2111]

Good to see you back on YT. Thanks for the info/video! Sadly these upgrades cost more than the plane and will not add the same value to the plane but are needed. It’s abusive what they charge. They must think everyone that owns a plane is wealthy. Hurts the average pilot.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Glad to be back, I’m glad you’re here! For me, I just want the regulation removed that would allow me to do the work!

[@michaeldautry]

Any idea on how much this improves the plane value, I’ve heard you get about 50% back on the sale?

[@crazycons]

I am looking at the same situation. Even though the video is about a year old and I saw that you just sold your Mooney. However, it is still helpful. I would have loved the Dynon until I found out that they aren't EASA certified. The G5 don't support non-garmin autopilots (which is already built in and a new GFC500 is about 20k EUR). Therefore I am stuck with either a G500Xi or the GI275. I will start without a glas panel now and just update the main stack to a GNC355a (together with my GNT750), an AT-1 and a GI275 EIS. Replacing the main instruments with two GI275 will be the second step a when money flows...

[@1dullgeek]

Have you considered leaving your radio stack and getting something like a GPS175 instead of the GTN650? As far as I can tell the GPS175 has all the functionality of the GTN650 but it doesn't have integrated nav/com radios and it doesn't have a transponder. Do you really need all of that integrated into a single unit for twice the price? There's a metric ton of stuff that I would like to do to my airplane, but the 3 biggest are: 1) Put in a digital engine monitor 2) Put in an autopilot 3) Get rid of my vacuum system Unfortunately the costs are so out of control that I'm just learning to live with what I've got. If I were in your shoes I would be looking to do the absolute minimum that let's me get the airplane - and myself - instrument rated. Which would mean dual G5s to deal with the magnetized airframe, and a GPS175 - a WAAS GPS. I'd keep everything else that's already working. But TBH, if I were in your shoes, I'd be looking for an airplane that is already IFR certified with a WAAS GPS. Seems like less of a headache for less cost.

[@MyTimeToFly]

So much to think about, thanks for sharing!!!

[@bunkie2100]

Two G5s for almost $12,000? We put one in one of our club 150s (with the optional battery backup) for about $2,400 about three years ago. We bought a refurbished Garmin 400 (think 430 without the nav radio) for $2,000. We spent about $3,000 for labor to install both units most of which was for the removal/reinstallation of the interior to accommodate the antenna installation and wiring. We are about to install a Uavionics AV-30 in our other 150 to replace a failing DG. We found one with the outside air temp probe for $1,900 and our A&P will charge us about $300 to install it as it’s a drop in replacement for a standard gauge. When we get around to replacing the attitude indicator, we’ll install a second AV-30 and ditch the vacuum pump. Granted, this is a VFR aircraft but the AV-30s will give us an awful lot of glass-panel capability for not much more than replacement costs for steam gauges.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Great work Peter, sounds like you did it right! I certainly want to take on some of the work myself to lower the labor cost.

[@azcharlie2009]

I am 75 years old. I decided last March to get my IPC and regain IFR currency. I've owned a 79 Archer II since 1985 but flown little IFR since moving to AZ. The GS receiver in my KNS80 failed and I was going to upgrade to a GTN 750xi. They wanted $23K for just that. (now it's way more!) I found out quickly that my autopilot (IIIB) would still work, but not like the new autopilots. I couldn't afford a new autopilot, so I stayed with the KNS80, KX170B, etc. I'm on my 3rd KNS80 at $500 a crack. Here is something to think about: You are young. Buy as much as you can afford for the type of flying you'll be doing. I remember getting a quote from a dealer in Illinois on a 530W installed for $15K. Seemed like way too much money back then, but I should have done it. Flying real IFR with old equipment is not wise. ILS approaches are getting harder to find. GPS is taking over. That being said, if you are flying hard IFR, you need a modern autopilot, with at minimum, altitude hold. If you can afford it, coupled approaches, too. Here is a suggestion. Get a home equity loan for some of the cost, and pay cash for what you can. Pay it back with inflated dollars. Inflation is not going away. Deduct the interest.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thank you for all of the thoughts, I do agree that taking a half step is not wise if the plan is to fly significant IFR, it's a recipe for a bad outcome.

[@andrewromig9753]

I was with you until the financing suggestion. Risking any portion of your home for a hobby is always a terrible idea, and trying to use inflation to suggest you get one over on the banks ignores that the banks get one over on you via interest. If things actually worked the way you suggest, no one would ever offer a HELOC.

[@ozelot250]

Yeah I was with you too until you suggested getting into debt and mortgage my house. Not worth it.

[@kyliepug753]

Thanks for this video….found it really useful. I recently got a quote for a full Garmin G3X upgrade panel….and quote was comparable to what you reported a year ago….ouch 😢! What did you end up doing for your panel? Do you have a video/photos of your new panel? Thanks!

[@apt3503]

I'm in a very similar situation and have been thinking about this conundrum for about a year now. I have a '67 E model with good IFR steam gauges, a 430, 155, tail beacon, EDM-700. I decided to go the piecemeal path. This winter I'll remove the old fuel quantity indicating system with a new CiES system, I'll replace the 700 with an EDM-900. This first upgrade step allows me to replace almost everything on the right side of the panel because the 900 is certified as a primary. Cost between parts and labor are around $12,000. The next upgrade step will happen in 3 - 5 years and will be the left side of the panel. I will either go dual 275 and a GTN-650 or Dynon and a 440. The main reason for waiting this long (other than money) is I hope that Dynon has a certified AP for our short-body Mooneys by then. If not, I'll go with the Garmin option because the Garmin AP integrates nicely with the rest of the Garmin suite. Either way, cost is going to be a major decision driver. Please keep us updated with the direction your going.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks so much for the comment. I'm excited to hear how the CiES system works for you. We definitely need better working fuel gauges in our Mooney.

[@bombsaway6340]

Have a 62 M20C. Put in an Aspen Pro (10k), MVP 50 engine monitor (6k), Stratus transponder for ADS B in/out (4k). Garmin backpack comm (3k), Keep my Garmin 450W, STEC 30 autopilot. Installed all about 30k total. Works great, fully coupled approach capable. Very expensive but we’ll worth it.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Sounds like a great system. Thanks for the recommendation on the Aspen.

[@rsbelser9212]

After much research, We went with 2 G5, a GNC 355, JPI 730 and GMA 345 audio panel. Total cost with labor $37k. We kept an existing nav com and older wing level autopilot that couples with the 355 for GPS steering. The G5s also have the advantage of integral battery backup. Quite happy with our setup.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Very cool, what model airplane are you flying?

[@rsbelser9212]

Piper Archer I 1974

[@MyTimeToFly]

Awesome man!

[@challenger2ultralightadventure]

I am always floored by the cost difference between certified and experimental with regards to avionics. Cheers from Winnipeg.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks for being here Peter, the cost difference is certainly frustrating!

[@halvanhercke3321]

Why would this floor you? Anytime you get government regulation involved the price of anything, goods services, etc skyrockets. It’s not uncommon for it to be 4-10x the cost of a deregulated alternative. That is across all industries from manufacturing to finance etc. That’s the hidden cost of regulation.

[@SoloRenegade]

and the difference? on has a "certified" sticker, and the other does not.

[@bernie_hirsch]

When I upgraded my PA32 I kept the radio stack (430W, King 155, GTX330-ES, Garmin 696, GMA347 audio), ditched all the engine gauges and vacuum system, installed a new flat panel, two G5s, an EI MVP50 engine monitor, and Trutrak (Bendix) AP. Everything works flawlessly together, great IFR platform. Total installed cost was around $25K.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Very awesome...how long ago did you complete this upgrade? Was it a completely hands off install for you, or were you able to be involved?

[@bernie_hirsch]

@@MyTimeToFly I did the upgrade in stages that lasted about three years, and it was completed around 2020. All of it was accomplished by avionics shops, not me.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Roger that, thanks Bernie!

[@johnpatrick1588]

Do you need the fancy glass to be a safe pilot? I learned to fly way before glass cockpits so I can fly with or without it. Even in fancy glass cockpits I carried a hand held GPS just in case.

[@christopherbeddoe406]

I don't own a mooney but want to buy one in the next few years and had looked extensively at avionics hardware. I would hands down go with the Dynon system. It's extremely reasonable, simple and straightforward. Dynon doesn't nail you for all the accessory hardware, the have some of the most reasonable prices in the industry. If you set things up targeting specific addon hardware in the future you can configure your system appropriately. Leave a space for it in you new panel, remove a cover and it's as close to plug and play as you can get for the electronics. I would also be willing to pay significantly more for an airplane with "glass" Garmin or dynon avionics than I would a plane with individual gauges replaced with digital Garmin systems. That doesn't mean as much to me even though it costs dang near the same.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Makes great sense, thanks so much for sharing your perspective. I’ll use this if we look to bring a 3rd pilot into our airplane.

[@dwaynemcallister7231]

IFR flight not cheap especially if you want the latest and greatest panel. My plane has a Garmin GNC 420W and with the latest update it is a fine piece of equipment it's older but with the updated main & GPS software it's pretty good. If I add a G5 (experimental version) and a Aera 660 or 760 or maybe a pad mini, that's good enough for my experimental mostly VFR Europa XS. I do understand the frustration!

[@StepAttitude]

Wow. $60k - $70k for computers, running software and some sensors. I get it. There's a lot of paperwork involved in certification. It's expensive to develop these systems and the number of units sold per year is not very high. Just the fact that general aviation can access this stuff I think is great. I was looking at getting an airplane and upgrading to a glass panel. In recent years used aircraft costs have skyrocketed. For me, the way to reduce the cost of flying is to build. My current plan is an RV 10. I think it would be interesting to see what the cost of these avionics suites are when you price the experimental versions.

[@MyTimeToFly]

I will definitely do a comparison video. I'm attempting to get a representative from one of the major equipment manufactures to participate in an interview to discuss the differences. Building is definitely a great option. At the very least, it gives you the opportunity to perform the installation yourself. Best of luck on the RV-10. It's a great platform!

[@tommycaputo9267]

I have a 65 M20C that only had a G430W in it (primary reason I picked it) everything else had VOR only. As soon as I landed for the 1st time after buying it, I put in a GTX345. I use foreflight pro and have a backup PFD with synthetic vision and traffic. Next was the Insight G4. I saved on cost by working with the mechanic and doing a lot of the labor. This is a comfortable IFR platform in my opinion.

[@TheBarzook]

Do you have an AP?

[@MyTimeToFly]

I hope to be able to supply some of the labor as well, I just have to make sure my avionics guy is open to that.

[@MyTimeToFly]

I wish I had mine, it would make this all more cost effective.

[@tommycaputo9267]

I do have the Brittan Auto Pilot. I have my avionics shop do the GTX345 turn key because I was on a work trip and unable to do the labor but the insight G4 was put on by an A&P, IA who let's me wrench. Highly encourage finding someone who let's you work on your plane so you can bet your life on your work than someone else who might be having a bad day.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks for all the info Tommy! I misunderstood AP, it all makes sense now.

[@matiaswilson4768]

We have a PA28 and needed to replace the attitude indicator. Went with an AV30 because it was a little cheaper than a G5. I was also budget minded. The AV30 got a redline down the screen two month later and the knob to set baro was messing up. Sure it was under warranty but it meant down time and money for re-installation and another pitostatic test. We thought about it and agreed that concluded that piecemealing upgrades and repairs on the 58 year old panel would eat us alive in down time and cost. We looked at 100 combinations. We decided even though we have a 430 gps and Lynx transponder, we decided that we would gut everything and go all Garmin glass and add an autopilot. In my opinion the Piper Pilot 100i panel is the cheapest, all glass, Garmin IFR panel. That is what we are installing. Single G3X with engine monitor kit, backup G5, remote audio panel, remote com, stand alone nav/com, gns375 gps/transponder and gfc500 autopilot. Replacing all switches and circuit breakers and cutting new panel. Installed cost will be just under $70k. What allowed us to do this is that the value of our plane nearly doubled since we bought it in 2019. We had 4 years on the note. We refinanced and extended the note to 10 years. This increased our note by $150 a month. Also hoping to get close to $10k back by parting out the old panel.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks for sharing, sounds like you’ll have an amazing panel on the PA28! How long do they figure the install will take?

[@matiaswilson4768]

@@MyTimeToFly Estimate says 8-10 week. We are figuring it will be 12 weeks. The shop is known for doing great work and staying on budget. Of course that usually means that schedule is compromised. Everything was ordered in March and we are still waiting on some components. Hope to drop her off early November.

[@MyTimeToFly]

The waiting game is never fun, but it sounds like it will be worth it! Best of luck!

[@rrad3926]

Excellent presentation and video. Once you kind of settle on what you want I would recommend you shop around for avionics shops. Avionics are eye watering, but I have a gut feeling that your quoted labor might be a little high. If that really is the cost of labor everywhere maybe you can get Garmin to sponsor you. I've seen 3 "Garmin Ambassadors" now. If I were going to do it my #1 would be a G3X, GI275 B/U, GFC500 and remove the vacuum system. My #2 would be the 3 GI 275s (3rd one for the EIS) and GFC500. I like the idea of the Dynon, but they don't have an approved autopilot yet and I wouldn't pay them money for a promise. What really hits me in the gut is experimental equipment is the same equipment but generally around half the cost. Blows my mind that it's good enough to do all the same GA missions in an experimental aircraft. Maybe the answer is for you to start looking at experimental aircraft again.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks for the kinds words! I would love to pick up a sponsorship, but don't work very hard to look for them. I agree that certified vs. experimental is a very sad cost difference. I would love to pay experimental prices (with me supplying the labor)

[@rrad3926]

@@MyTimeToFly Look forward to seeing whatever you choose and hearing what you think on it.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks so much for being here my man!

[@henryostman5740]

I feel your pain, just met the ADS-B out requirement for my plane using the wing feather system that seems just like your tail feather. Of course during installation it was determined that I needed a new transponder so why didn't I buy the all in one box, dumb mistake, Problem is that the days of building 10k general av planes a year is long gone, I don't think we've made a thousand in any year and frankly they need to take the private jets and king airs out of that count. This means that the total lifetime sales of these devices would be several thousand units at best, thus little room to spread the development cost and not enough units to set up a logical production line, they are effectively custom built. Note that all the cheaper lines of radios had gone out of business. Realize too that replacing your Moody with a new one would be north of $500k that probably why there aren't too many GA pilots around the airport without grey hair, we are the last generation. I bought my Cardinal when it was 9 years old, it's now over 50, so am I. In 25 years there won't be any general aviation, it will all be corporate or airlines.

[@MyTimeToFly]

I understand where your coming from, and sure hope that’s not the case. Perhaps things like additive manufacturing will help to shift the manufacturing costs.

[@glennanderson-zv1yd]

65c mooney. installed two 275's, Jpi900, Garmin 500, Garmin 375, LED strobes, nav's, rotating beacon, electric step actuator, USB charger, used KX 155, used PMA 7000 audio panel Lemo headset jacks in front and headset jacks in back, 2 new fuel sensors iPad mount and new panels. All done was 105k. I kept adding things which did not help. I am very happy though.

[@ronaldvanengen1887]

I have a Mooney M20C Get an STEC autopilot with Altitude hold!! And Get 2 of those Garmin 275s and not Drop the Bank on avionics Double check with Garmin on support for the Stec autopilot You know Garmin wants it all Garmin their autopilot plus them subscriptions is where they make their Money!!! We are Really Saving our Money for that new engine from DeltaHawk!! The Turbine engine from Turbaero looks impressive for Mooney owners as well The Mooney Long Range Fuel tanks and that Turbine would be phenomenal bur I'm sure with full fuel only able to take 2 people ❤😊 The deltaHawk uses JetA!! But Get the Stec autopilot you won't be sorry!! And Yes George aka that's what we call the autopilot Flys its better than u can!!😊

[@TheShays]

When I was getting into GA from Air Force I was considering a lot of options including upgrading older panels in certified planes. I went with the 4 seater experimental and the panel cost and flexibility was a big consideration. I don't know why there is such a big difference in cost for the same panel but there is.

[@TheBarzook]

I think a lot of it comes from the liability in certified aircrafts.

[@MyTimeToFly]

The cost difference is certainly frustrating. What 4 seat experimental did you end up in?

[@MyTimeToFly]

I agree the liability drives up cost, but it is quite frustrating still.

[@TheShays]

@@MyTimeToFly I eventually decided on a RV10. There were a lot of factors in play but cost of ownership was a big one for me, and what I’ve learned is that in the experimental world it could be half or as low as 1/3 of the ongoing ownership cost of an Equivalent certified plane.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Right on! The RV-10 is an incredible airplane!

[@johnschreiber1574]

uAvionix AV30E, now has remote magnetometer input, and ADS-B traffic in. I expect the certified model will get the remote magnetometer soon. Be advised that the tail beacon X control installation precludes autopilot use on that AV30, but if you're not flying to Canada you will be fine with your current tail beacon. Personally I will probably install an RC Allen mini 6 in my plane, when the next vacuum gyro failure occurs. It is fully TSO for all six instruments, but I have to keep the airspeed indicator

[@MyTimeToFly]

John, I just became aware of the tail beacon X. Are you saying that with a tail beacon X onboard, you are not able to install an autopilot?

[@johnschreiber1574]

@@MyTimeToFly the AV30 that interfaces/controls the tail beacon X may not provide autopilot input at this time. An AV20 can control the "X" as well and costs less. Note: the RCA mini 6 can't drive an auto pilot either. ( This systems stuff is complex ) I have a friend who had a working Cessna AP with the heading input on the control head and his dual Aspen system killed it due to turn and bank removal. Aspen said "it works with Cessna 300" but later we find out, oh not that 300!

[@MyTimeToFly]

Complex is no joke. That’s partly what makes me want to just have a single suite from one brand.

[@damirzanne]

my advice , keep flying and have fun , don’t worry about fancy avionics upgrades …

[@MyTimeToFly]

There's a very good argument for what you've said. The cost likely doesn't justify the improvement for our current mission.

[@luissantiago147]

We need a follow video and what you ended up doing!

[@brucebolla4148]

Do not base any decisions based upon what a company says they will do. My good friend just did a new Dynon Panel on his Bonanza and it is beautiful. The problem is that Dynon was expecting an STC for the autopilot which now appears NEVER to be coming. His 1963-4 vintage Bonanza will not be included in future STC's.

[@SierraBravo7970]

I love your videos!! Been watching for a while!! I own a 1967 Mooney M20E, just love the aircraft.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thank you for those kind words Shaun! I'd love those extra 20 HP!

[@SierraBravo7970]

@@MyTimeToFly it’s really efficient!!

[@SierraBravo7970]

I’m running LOP 145KTAS at 7-7.5 gph. Nice and cool CHTs. The scimitar prop is really great as well

[@SierraBravo7970]

I wish you did too my friend! Those 20 extra horses make a big dif.

[@MyTimeToFly]

We make a about 143KTAS but have to burn a bit more fuel to do it!

[@charlesdelone6861]

Hey bud, I’m doing a very similar set of upgrades to a Mooney M20E rn, but my costs are way lower than yours. Either you need to look around at more shops or talk to a specialty shop like DeLone Aviation that helps organize these kind of jobs. Good luck.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks for the referral Charles! What avionics are you going with?

[@markgunnison]

As much as I would like an engine monitor and auto pilot for my M20B Mooney, I just can't afford/justify everything I want all at once. That is why I went with just a GNC355 along with two G5s for now. At some point I will add the autopilot and engine monitor but to avoid going into debt or pulling from retirement savings, I'm doing it one piece at a time. An advantage of the GNC355 is it does not require any modifications to the radio stack.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Sounds like a great first step! Garmin has so many options now, do you know how the 355 compares to the GPS175?

[@markgunnison]

@@MyTimeToFly The 355 is the same as the 175 but the 355 incorporates a radio.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Ahh, makes sense!

[@ericrolland9092]

I was helping Herb convert his Skipper over the summer, I’ll see what brand he went with. I remember it was much less expensive than some of the other units🤷‍♂️

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks Eric!!! The labor really increases the cost too. I feel like I could become an avionics tech for the same cost as paying for the install.

[@ericrolland9092]

@@MyTimeToFly yeah, having that “A” endorsement is a big one. Really opens up a lot of doors as to what you can work on. Or, just find a good friend that is certified and help him do the install😉

[@MyTimeToFly]

That’s the ticket…know the right people!

[@allenw1188]

One thing I found out is the GI275 do not talk to a Aerocruse 100 A/P and the G5s will.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Great info, thanks for sharing.

[@MrPILOTSTEVE59]

I have a 1969 Mooney M20C that I just upgraded the interior. I've been considering replacing my radio stack with a GPS/NAV/COM/LOC/GLIDESLOPE, MULTIFUNCTION DISPLAY, AND AUTOPILOT. I was really depressed that that would cost at least $19000 just for the avionics. $5500 for the auto pilot. I've seen installations of avionics costing $10000 in labor. I could buy a brand new car for that. The man at the avionics shop said that If I were to install the equipment and then sell the plane I'd only get enough for the plane to cover half the cost of the upgrade. I guess I'll limp along with the stack I've got and maybe replace the Nav/Com and keep the GNC 300XL GPS/Com that I can't get new data for, and get a uAvionix tail beacon for ADS-B Out.

[@MyTimeToFly]

It's certainly unfortunate that you can't recoup more of the avionics investment. It makes pursing upgraded panels hard to justify if you aren't planning on keeping the airplane for the longterm.

[@AndyTulenko]

I wish I had seen this back when you posted it. Have you ever looked at MGL? Excellent products, half the price.

[@MyTimeToFly]

I've never heard of MGL (of course I just looked them up). It appears they only have systems for experimental / sport aircraft. Unfortunately our airplane certification dictates we buy certified avionics. With that, the price goes way up.

[@wp4246]

I would go with the dual G5’s to start. It’s economical and gets the IFR training going. Prices on the G5’s are down now and even some used ones are appearing on the market.

[@MyTimeToFly]

I would love to find a deal on a pair of used G5s. That would force me into a direction.

[@wp4246]

@@MyTimeToFly used 1999$ on a avionics sight is best I have seen. New I have seen 2250$

[@MyTimeToFly]

Wow, they hold their value pretty well!

[@SierraBravo7970]

That’s what I have in 1967 M20E. Dual G5s, JPI900, Garmin 430 WAAS

[@mooneym20man70]

Your not the only one im struggling with the same decision.

[@MyTimeToFly]

It's just hard to justify so much money and time. I wish there were an easy answer.

[@sh8zen]

Maybe its already been mentioned. but traditionally with avionics upgrades, the value of the aircraft should increase about half of what you spent. so half of that can be returned in equity if/when you were to sell the aircraft.

[@MyTimeToFly]

I believe that number is reasonably accurate, but perhaps has fell below the 50% mark as airplane prices have soared. I do agree however, there is some equity return.

[@johnstark-StarkAvionics]

Whether you go with a G3X or Dynon big screen you will also need a G5/D-10 backup. I don’t think that was in the pricing you shared.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Good call!

[@ibgarrett]

After doing a full panel upgrade in a T210 (G3X/750/G5/GFC500) and a JPI engine monitor and spending a little over $80k I was ready to move into the experimental world where I am putting in TWO G3X's, G5, GFC500 along with all new avionics for about 2/3 the cost of the T210's.

[@MyTimeToFly]

YES!!! The difference between certified and experimental drives me crazy!

[@zacharynorman397]

What is the main price difference driver for the same avionics in an experimental vs certified plane??

[@MyTimeToFly]

There is much debate here, but most people say the price is driven by the liability of working with certified airplanes. Said a different way, the experimental world is less likely to sue you.

[@ibgarrett]

@@zacharynorman397 Oh - I won't be as nice as our host. Basically the avionics manufactures are using the "certification" route to line their pockets. The difference between the G3X certified and non-certified is barely negligible if at that. The hardware is IDENTICAL with only (maybe?) some minor tweaks to their software.

[@MyTimeToFly]

I appreciate your strong position here! The price difference is excessive. Just comparing a G3X 10” display: Experimental: $4,210 Certified: $11,190 🤷‍♂️

[@Allegan49010]

Shop around is a must, prices, instillation cost and reputation of supplier!! Next big question, is the plane you want to update worth a $50k to $70k expenditure? Happy Flying!!

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks Don. I agree, shopping around is a must. There aren’t many airplanes worth this much of an upgrade, I think we mostly do it for the pride we have in our plane. No flying make financial sense really!

[@Allegan49010]

@@MyTimeToFly Some of the upgrades make for much safer flying making it worth the expense!

[@MyTimeToFly]

Hard to argue with that!

[@matthewrichardson828]

Great video.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thank you kindly, I appreciate you being here!

[@afdchocolatemilk2107]

currently installing 2 garmin 275's, and a garmin 375stx, whelan strobes and rotating beacon, setting up wiring for garmin engine monitor and auto pilot this winter. going to be about 73k in total. I'm also am installing electric step retractor system. all going into a 1965 C.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Very cool! Was your step retractor vacuum previously? Mine is a manual crank, which works great.

[@afdchocolatemilk2107]

@@MyTimeToFly mine was vacuum and now electric. Tied to strobe so it retracts when strobe is turned on.

[@MyTimeToFly]

That’s pretty awesome! Thanks for the info.

[@tomjackson4655]

If you were quoted $11K for just installing an Aspen E5, it's excessive. Should be a 20 hour install, and the E5 is less than $5000 for the unit. $11K should just about get you the E5 and a GPS175 WAAS navigator. Keep your existing nav/coms and off you go. Stratus transponder is an inexpensive way to get going, but if your current transponder is a KT76 go with Avidynes AXP340. Add the GPS input from your navigator, other than that input it's a slide in replacement for a KT76. That's about as cheap as you get ADSB, reliable glass and WAAS. Removing the vacuum system is about 4 hours, but see if your shop will let you do it, not difficult.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks for the great comment again Tom. I feel like shops often hedge on the high side of labor. I really hope I can provide a majority of the labor, my ownership partner and I have the skills.

[@jimd421]

One thing I'll never buy again is an avadine I've talked other people that have said the same thing. Garmin is pretty much the best and have the best support . I imagine if we found out what it costs to get things regulated and approved as a lot more money than we can imagine.

[@MyTimeToFly]

You're probably right. I'd vote for less regulation, but that's just me.

[@MickB235]

I work as an avionics tech and from talking with my boss and customers , don't necessarily go for the cheapest labour options as others have probably said, shop around but also, ask around...you might get what could be a good price on the labour content but what kind of job and quality are you getting? Just something to consider

[@MyTimeToFly]

I totally understand and appreciate paying for quality work. Do you guys allow owner assistance?

[@matiascreus9057]

wow, amazing costs... if you think in insane costs i can talk about argentina... 1 G5 ADI in argentina can be sold for about 5500 USD without installation.. and in argentina 5.500 USD is the same than $2.200.000 usd in USA. that's insane... But if we can purchase one G5 on aircraft spruce for $2500 our installation cost is about 750 dollars. i do the same comparation and i prefer the Aspen E5 because Garmin just wants Garmin and Aspen is compatible with a lot of equipment. so you can do the upgrade in small steps. The trutrak o trio autopilots can be a good solution. they works with ASPEN and are stand alone. the GFC 500 need at least one G5... one more time Garmin only Garmin. about the engine instruments EMS, i prefer JPI, it is a great option and very complete and economic.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thank you for the great thoughts, and comparison. I appreciate you being here.

[@sparkie951]

I am going through that right now, but you missed one big item to the entire plan, and that is Installation Cost. Mine is in Avionics upgrade right now. Where I ma getting a very large package (5 GI275's (ADI, HSI, CDI, MFD, EIS), GTN750 & 650, GFC500, 4 Servo's) my total installed cost is approx 95K

[@MyTimeToFly]

Wow, that's a LOT of cash. Thanks for sharing.

[@EngineerPrepper]

I just did an avionics upgrade on my skymaster... what I have learned is that whatever price you pay for in avionics, you will be paying almost the same in installation...I spent $16 In avionics and $13k in install

[@MyTimeToFly]

I understand how this is possible, but will also look to challenge the "standard cost". Hopefully my willingness to perform the labor will create an advantage for me.

[@MrSixstring2k]

You don’t have a autopilot so I say go Garmin, the integration will be flawless but not cheap. I would aim for something that’s here, tried and tested. The only exception I think is the aspen only because it can know (as announced at oshkosh I think) interface with gfc 500 and I have an aspen and love it. Future upgrading capability should be make this a forever plane.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks for the thoughts, no doubt staying with tried and tested is a safe bet. I just wonder if the cost is worth it.

[@MrSixstring2k]

@@MyTimeToFly If you are keeping it long turn then I would say yes but only you and your partner can answer that.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Makes sense

[@GrimshawAviation]

There is so much here to say...but i will keep this short for you. I would say: "look at your mission". Look at what you're going to put into the aircraft and look at other aircraft with the same thing put into it. I would say that you can certainly put this stuff into the aircraft but it does not really increase the amount that the aircraft is worth to others even though its a really nice touch. So as long as you're not looking to sell the plane for quite some time and you can get what you can out of it before you do. Then i would say to go ahead and install what you want and just spend the money. But dont expect to get that exact amount back in a sale. So yeah...you have many options. Of course you can buy a plane that someone else already put all this time into, but you already know your plane quite well....and someone elses plane might have all this in it, but does it have other issues that your plane does not? many questions my friend...good luck with the decisions! I will watch no matter what you decide.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks so much for the thoughts and being a part of the channel. I'm not sure what we are going to do, but 'll keep you all in the loop as we make decisions.

[@CompleteWalkaround]

Great Info

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thank you kindly!

[@Dimrain13]

DIY it or find someone that can read wire diagrams. The install itself is not difficult, but it requires knowledge. I normally call this the stupid tax because if you don't know how to do something you have to pay someone else a premium to do it. And normally thats just stupid. I would go with used gear that passes QC as theres not much damage that can happen with electronics. Likely it will be about half the cost and then who ever you find would be around $25/h or you could just learn how to do it and you will be that much better at troubleshooting problems. I work in real estate and the biggest issue there is normally finding a contractor that can do what he says within the time and budget. I also would think that these prices are on par for aviation as nothing is cheap so hard to tell if that would be considered a good deal. No matter what you decide remember that half of that money goes in the trash in regards to value. Might make more sense to sell and take advantage of that info. But Im sure you already knew all of that.

[@MyTimeToFly]

I appreciate all of your thoughts here, and couldn't agree more. If you can't do it yourself, sell and buy an airplane that is better equipped for the mission.

[@bryankilpatrick3599]

I put in AV30s with a Garmin 355 GPS in one plane and find take out avionics to upgrade my other aircraft , I save on labor by dong myself and having an IA inspect after.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Sounds like a great option. Do you have any formal avionics training, or is the install something that can be done by a person with reasonable mechanical / electrical skill?

[@gabekremer7148]

There is a service bulletin to demag the cage. It was more than likely magnatized by shop pulling cords in the door for lights and other things. That will magnatize the cage.

[@MyTimeToFly]

We've tried the demag route, no success quite yet. Because we feel the problem will inevitably return, we do want to hunt for a permanent solution

[@gabekremer7148]

@@MyTimeToFly if the cage is magnetized bad enough the new avionics will see it

[@MyTimeToFly]

We hope to put the magnetometer in the wing, no ferrous steel cage out there.

[@gabekremer7148]

@@MyTimeToFly itll still see it. I do istalls for a living and know thexaurframe well. Own a J and maintain F G and TN

[@MyTimeToFly]

I appreciate the info. At what airframe gauss level do you feel a wing install would be successful?

[@tonysaunders9655]

hello from the uk just something to think about being a renter i need carry on equipment so garmin pilot on i pad mini 6 yoke mounted with garmin gdl 39 3d from e bay i get all the nav stuff also synthetic vis adsb in all for under £1,000.00 voila

[@MyTimeToFly]

I agree those are great options, but I don't believe the meet the IFR equipment criteria here in the states.

[@joshhelmwhojawhatsit7690]

Silly question, can you put an upgraded avionics suite on a rotary engine plane or warbird (Texan T-6 etc) I've never seen a modern panel on a classic warbird.

[@MyTimeToFly]

I'm pretty sure you can, it might have to be considered experimental though.

[@peteranninos2506]

Absolutely you can. In fact, JPI has engine monitors for 9 cylinder Radial (not rotary) engines. Also, in Alaska and Canada where many WW-II vintage aircraft still fly, a more modern/hybrid panel seems fairly common.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Very cool, thanks for clearing it up Peter!

[@charleswithey8277]

If your radios are in good shape you can save a good amount by ditching the 650 and the transponder and replacing with a gnx375 waas gps/transponder combo ~8600$ no ground based approaches but gps approaches are much more common

[@charleswithey8277]

Also adsb out and in with display on screen/output to garmin aera if you have one

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks Charles, good thought.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Unfortunately I don't, but they aren't too expensive. I've considered a panel mounted Ipad, or Area as a good option for the right seat.

[@charleswithey8277]

I have both aera 660 and panel mount ipad. Interface on the iPad in my opinion is 10x better but the reliability of the aera makes it worth having, 660 currently runs the autopilot, appointment for the gnc375 is in November, so the aera will pretty much just be to display adsb traffic and weather

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks Charles, it sounds like there are a lot of options. That honestly makes it more challenging…hahaha!

[@scottmiller4711]

Cost to upgrade and install in an experimental is probably about half the cost of certified aircraft. If you go with a Garmin G3X or Dynon HDX, then you don’t need a separate engine monitor.

[@MyTimeToFly]

It’s hard to stomach the cost difference! Agreed, an onboard engine monitor is a great benefit.

[@chrisreddick36]

Isn’t there yearly or quarterly updates that has to be done with some of those setups? If so I personally hate updates,especially those I have to pay for. I would research that part as well best of luck.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Great point Chris. I will have to do some research to better understand the cost / frequency.

[@trilomann]

I’m in the same boat with my bonanza f33a

[@MyTimeToFly]

I feel like a huge chunk of the GA fleet will be having to make these same decisions very soon. Perhaps that will help the costs come down a bit.

[@russellesimonetta9071]

Aren,t there new rules on allowing " experimental" avionics to be used in certified aircraft??

[@MyTimeToFly]

If there are, I’m not aware. But now I’ll spend a bunch of time trying to find out!

[@gordonfeliciano4315]

With avionics upgrades, you have to "eat the elephant one bite at a time", so to speak. Start off with a basic package and slowly build on it over time.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Roger that, I appreciate the perspective

[@xpeterson]

Why doesn’t anyone with an experimental get a G5 for some official air data, and then just fill the rest of the cockpit with a bunch of $1k iPads? Forflight does a lot of what the Garmins do, while any iPad app will be way more responsive, fluid, intuitive, and a heck of a lot cheaper, with a good back up battery to boot

[@honeycomb8753]

If you remove the vacuum system (which would normally be a great plan) .. BUT .. Doesn't the Mooney STEP operate on your vacuum source? Just a sanity check for us non-mooney owners.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Fortunately my step operates with a hand crank, so not problem for me. BUT, some of them certainly do operate on vacuum.

[@mikeblackford994]

The only upgrade I'd make to a Mooney is a Bonanza

[@Bob-cd5pp]

Been flying many years and while the glass panels are SO cool unless your rich I say fly VFR and use a iPad with foreflight.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Roger that, seems fair to me.

[@nowuknowthis1903]

There is no justifying anything about flying your own airplane. Between, hangar cost, fuel, maintenance, insurance I can buy two first class tickets every month. It used to be a pretty good wash. My wife and I could fly for the cost of one commercial ticket. Now, at 75-100 per hour for fuel, fuel has doubled. We can spend $800 on a trip that commercial will be $400 or less. So, you can’t justify a plane, let alone the cost of avionics. If you are going to keep an airplane then and the avionics will make you and your plane safer, no brainer. A cirrus neighbor who flies for UPS said he sits on the ground waiting for weather to clear. He has twin glass. He won’t flight at night, or bad imc, or at least avoids it. He flights for a living! More avionics doesn’t change the fact that we are mostly amateurs and we are imc single pilot. If you practice and get really comfortable with your plane a basic silver stack and iPad will work. If you are like me and don’t fly a lot, $60k is cheap for the extra help. Minimum, good autopilot.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Roger that, good autopilot for sure. I definitely agree that the costs are out of hand.

[@Allegan49010]

Shop!!!!!

[@ddivinia]

Pass on the G5 for the GI-275.

[@MyTimeToFly]

The GI-275 sure seam fantastic. They keep the panel clean!!!

[@abramweston9873]

Just go with experimental glass. People are crazy to spend that extra markup for these greedy companies to line their pockets. It’s the exact same thing. Or so close that the extra isn’t worth the cost.

[@MyTimeToFly]

If I could use experimental I definitely would, unfortunately our certified airplane status doesn't allow for it. I'd sign the paper tomorrow if I could call my Mooney experimental.

[@quantomic1106]

Dynos is the way to go. You can get a G1000-type capability for under 60 grand. Most software updates are free and maps/charts are about 100 bucks a year. After seeing what Dynon has to offer, I'll never consider Garmin again. Garmin is just way too overpriced.

[@danielruff4632]

The uAvionics AV-30-C looks like a really cheap alternative. It has modules that give different instruments at the turn of the knob. Just under $2k each. I figure I could get 2 or 3 of them, get rid of the vacuum system and save TONS of money. I still have to save up for it unfortunately. 😒 I think it will keep the vintage look of my Mooney, but offer some glass panel displays.

[@MyTimeToFly]

I do like the AV-30-C as well, but unfortunately it doesn't have a magnetometer (to my knowledge). Not solving my compass issue takes it off the table for me unfortunately.

[@danielruff4632]

@@MyTimeToFly Bummer

[@MyTimeToFly]

I’m sure it’s coming, but I don’t know the timetable.

[@danielruff4632]

@@MyTimeToFly when you sell your Directional Gyro, let me have first dibs. Mine is INOP. 😁

[@MyTimeToFly]

Roger that!

[@garybennett9581]

I believe I can confidently say that something like 50% of the cost is the product liability insurance the manufacturer has to pay and then the rest is broken up into R&D costs, physical component costs, manufacturing, certifications, assembly, QA, physical plant, and somewhere in there is some taxes and profit. 😂

[@MyTimeToFly]

I tend to agree. BUT, there are some companies that seem be shrinking the gap. Uavionix for example, their certified systems are more expensive, but not by near the margin.

[@renelombard8290]

Cost saving is one thing , safety is another ,G3x is the way to go i did whole panel about 12 months back the pleasure of flying with these instruments trumps the 70k spent , invest in what you have ,safety first ,don't fool around when it comes to IF flight

[@MyTimeToFly]

I appreciate that perspective. Fly safe!

[@HighMTXAviation]

If you need some assistance with your avionics build I can help you navigate a more cost effective route. I’ve actually installed my own avionics for my PA28-180 put in a 430W, Dual G5 & GFC500 plus more for half the cost of a shop. Feel free to shoot me a PM or anyone seeing this reach out, I was once in that position of not knowing what to do with such a decision!

[@MyTimeToFly]

Thanks a bunch Jose!

[@Captndarty]

Where are you getting $16,000 for a certified Garmin G3X? Their website currently says 11,190….

[@MyTimeToFly]

These are all quoted as installed, so about $5k in labor

[@jonasbaine3538]

Any interest in switching to an experimental? I've seen people using simple iPads as PFDs.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Yes, I'm very interested. But, the experimental airplane I'd want is way out of my budget.

[@jonasbaine3538]

@@MyTimeToFly RV-10?

[@MyTimeToFly]

It’s definitely on the short list, along with the Sling TSi.

[@stevecarr2154]

Best option might be to trade up into an IFR plane minus the glass.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Our plane can be IFR without the glass, we just need to fix the magnetism issue. Perhaps the cheapest fix is the best option.

[@stevecarr2154]

@@MyTimeToFly I agree it IS expensive. What kind of GPS do you have now?

[@MyTimeToFly]

It’s a non WAAS KLN94. It’s actually pretty solid for VFR.

[@majorchungus]

This is why I bought experimental. Soo much cheaper.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Amen to that!

[@cyrooski4]

I guess you don't realize that when you have a light sport aircraft the price of the same avionics drops about 60% and you can install them yourself if you build the plane or took the course on maintenance, you'll have to look into that but we are talking about a fraction of the cost, literally. I am a 1/5 partner in an RV 12 that has everything you'd ever want on the dashboard and I paid $20k for 1/5 ownership and fly wet for $70 an hour everything included dues insurance hanger. Etc you lose utility but you get a modern engine and the right to do your own work.

[@MyTimeToFly]

I’m very aware, but I also know I need 4 seats in my airplane. The 4 place experimental aircraft that I’m most interested in (Sling TSi / RV-10) are too expensive for me at this time.

[@eminye1]

Dynon, nuff said.

[@MyTimeToFly]

I appreciate that, it does seem like a better value.

[@eminye1]

@@MyTimeToFly Sure does, there is another youtuber with an m20 similar to yours with a complete package, very impressive. Dynon may partner with you.

[@MyTimeToFly]

Yes, Chris has a beautiful airplane and panel. I really should check some more of his videos out to see the functionality.

[@williamkennedy2069]

And we considered the even newer and considerably cheaper versions of the same that are dubbed experimental? I realize having a certified aircraft is really nice but the price for everything is considerably higher I think you can install experimental electronics in it, just like the home build airplanes, which would save a ton of money, I may not have the fullest of understanding on these

[@MyTimeToFly]

I would love to be able to put “experimental” units in a certified airplane, but I’m not sure that’s possible. They are the same electronics to my knowledge, but much less money.

[@williamkennedy2069]

@@MyTimeToFly yes I've heard that too, maybe all you need to do is put a sticker on it declaring it experimental and then you can put the experimental stuff inside

[@MyTimeToFly]

Sounds like a plan to me, I’ll have the wife fire up the cricut!

[@prodigalpilot]

@@williamkennedy2069 not how experimental works. Can’t just declare yourself experimental. Experimental is reserved for exhibition, amateur built and development. Avionics companies but certificated airplanes on x-certs temporarily while developing and certifying the avionics. The certified versions of the equipment have to share the cost of certification and development across their volume. The experimental version only needs to share the cost of development. Yes, it’s a paperwork and cost thing. No, it’s not the avionics manufacturers fault.

[@williamkennedy2069]

@@prodigalpilot thanks obviously I didn't know how this whole thing works!

[@stlflyguy]

Dual GI275’s, GNX375. Leave it at that..

[@MyTimeToFly]

Sounds like a great start!

[@racecar73]

Take on another partner or two and buy once/cry once (whatever path the group chooses).

[@MyTimeToFly]

I love it! Buy once, cry once!

[@pilotreefer2930]

I prefer the Avidyne 550

[@MyTimeToFly]

Over the smaller Avidyne unit, or over Garmin units? I'd love to hear more.