Nahom Debunked - Has Nahom Been Found in Yemen? Dan Vogel

[@stephenjackson7797]

Conclusion: The apologists are stretching everything.

[@jake8882]

Always stretching. It's going to be a long life for these apologists.

[@Rjrupert555]

It’s really sad the lengths they will go to hang on to this crazy belief system.

[@jake8882]

@Rjrupert555 someone said it. You have to be able to be delusional to believe in the church

[@behonest5981]

Dan Vogel is the one stretching things and if you actually read the text for yourself instead of following Dan with blind faith then you would know that. The text clearly said he arrived in the wilderness near the Red Sea and then traveled for three days. Read for yourself. 5 And he came down by the borders near the shore of the Red Sea; and he traveled in the wilderness in the borders which are nearer the Red Sea; and he did travel in the wilderness with his family, which consisted of my mother, Sariah, and my elder brothers, who were Laman, Lemuel, and Sam. 6 And it came to pass that when he had traveled three days in the wilderness, he pitched his tent in a valley by the side of a river of water.

[@behonest5981]

@@Rjrupert555it’s sad you won’t read it for yourself. It’s very clear.

[@GospelTangents]

I'm surprised to see you tackling this Dan. Very interesting!

[@lilith4924]

This is fantastic! Thank you for all of your hard work researching this and putting it together.

[@behonest5981]

It’s only fantastic if you think lying is fantastic.

[@lilith4924]

@@behonest5981 I would be sincerely interested to know which claims are lies. I don't necessarily accept all of his conclusions (for example, I wonder whether Joseph Smith was inspired by the names Belshazzar and Belteshazzar in coming up with the name Shazer), but the thing I appreciate about Dan Vogel's videos is the depth of research.

[@TorqueDonkeyTeethLewith]

3 random letters found in random places will never be considered proof of any kind.... But for the apologists... they think this is some sort of smoking gun!!!!! Unfortunately, it only exposes their naivete......

[@Telavian]

Naturally people want to find a reason to believe. Every group does this.

[@frankthe3rd]

Yes! Thank you Dan! Finally someone tackles all these problems in a single video. They have been getting away with this sleight of hand for too long. I would also include in the fertile requirement list the amount of sheep and grazing land needed for the ship sails (where were the sheep when they were starving on their journey?), having to build a dry dock for the size of ship, tar/oils for sealing boat wood or water barrels, and maybe space for farming sufficient food for the journey. Storing water for a long voyage is also a huge problem in this narrative. I don’t think we should let them get away with just their narrow requirements for this story to be plausible.

[@sean9854]

They most likely used their tents for sails and hugged the African coastline making plenty of stops to replenish water and food supplies before navigating across the Atlantic

[@quemaspana]

I've been waiting for this video for a long time. Thanks Dan!

[@jamescutler428]

This is the best surprise new KZbin video ever!

[@chuckkv]

The South Arabian language is a problem. There are so many languages required to be a Nephite: Hebrew, Egyptian, Greek, and South Arabian. The first three make appearances or get mentions in the BoM, but nowhere is there a hint of South Arabian.

[@lilith4924]

Exactly. I really wonder whether Hebrew and the Old South Arabian languages were even mutually intelligible beyond maybe basic phrases. Nephi conveniently neglected to mention that his party went native with an Old South Arabian tribe they forgot to mention they encountered and whose language and script they started using, whether directly or by hiring others, so that the evidence they left behind would be indistinguishable from other Old South Arabian epigraphy. (It's a vanishing act his descendants would play over and over as they settled somewhere among the Maya whose existence they forgot to mention and quickly became indistinguishable from them in their speech, material culture, and genetic signatures.)

[@sean9854]

There are over 120 languages in India and 1600 dialects, about the same in the Philippines. I don’t see a problem with Nephites having to speak multiple languages. My sister in law is from Ukraine and speaks 9 languages. Lehi was most likely a merchant and picked up languages in his travels. Bountiful may have been in current Khor Kharfot, Oman which would’ve been isolated from Arabian tribes. According to linguistic scholars, after 1,000 yrs the original and new language will not be mutually intelligible

[@chuckkv]

@@sean9854 Sure. But why the South Arabian on a Hebrew Ishmael grave in "NHM" region? Why not his native tongue on his market? Why are Greek names and Greek influenced names in the BoM, including Christ, and his Greek named American apostles? ...there's no Greek, besides Christ, for 600 years, up until 3 Nephi, when suddenly a bunch of Greek apostle names appear. They taught all those languages on down for 600 years? Will your sister-in-law's kids know all her languages? How about their great grandkids?

[@lilith4924]

@@sean9854 My problem isn't that they couldn't have learned it; native Hebrew speakers probably could have learned an OSA language easily. My problem is rather that the textual evidence that we have, both the Book of Mormon and the OSA epigraphy that's cited, doesn't give any indication that they did. Ishmael's name is based on a template that almost certainly goes back to Proto-Semitic; if we encounter the form that the name takes in an OSA language, in the OSA script, that isn't evidence of a Hebrew speaker.

[@lilith4924]

(Also, the idea that languages change at a steady rate has been discredited repeatedly. Modern Standard Arabic in 2024, for example, has a lot more in common phonologically and morphologically with Proto-Semitic than Standard Babylonian did when the Epic of Gilgamesh was composed.)

[@flashman6342]

I miss the little musical stings at the end of your videos, Dan, they were so cute. But great work as always, have been looking forward to this. Can't wait to see what's next.

[@SantoAtheos]

Divine guidance versus a vivid imagination look the same to an outside observer. Smith's results are too messy to be the former.

[@PrairieChristianOutreach]

That’s the most logical conclusion, JS was a great story teller. Unfortunately he used this talent to mislead so many people.

[@sdfotodude]

This is such pathetic fan fiction. Joseph got soooo much wrong

[@outlawedmedia4336]

Correct. Although I would add Joseph just went along with the conjectures and popular beliefs of his day regarding the native people. The Book of Mormon screams 19th century ignorance of the people living in the young united states in his region. As someone who's studied early united states historic religious revivals the book of mormon falls right in line with that belief and is better used to understand the time with which it was written rather than the time in which it is placed.

[@sdfotodude]

@@outlawedmedia4336 That is the most plausible explanation by far

[@randyjordan5521]

@@outlawedmedia4336 Dittos. When you consider the totality of what's written in the BOM---the people, the culture, the religion, the technology, the animals, etc.---the only places its events could have occurred was in the ancient Middle East. That signals that its 19th century author was familiar with all of those things that he could read about in his King James Bible---but he knew nothing about anything in ancient America.

[@AarmOZ84]

It’s really hard for me to look at the Book of Mormon and see really events. Honestly, I feel like I am listening to a bunch of grown men debate where Hogwarts Castle is located.

[@ericreed4535]

I feel the same when believers argue over where in the Americas they had their civilizations. The whose to blame for polygamy battles JS or BY are also equally bewildering.. lol.

[@savedbygracethrufaith]

💯 great analogy

[@quemaspana]

Crazy that Joseph Smith is dropping Hebrew puns, but translates bronze as steel.

[@perryekimae]

Excellent Dan! This was a fantastic takedown of the NHM apologetic!

[@behonest5981]

Dan Vogel is a liar and if you actually read the text for yourself instead of following Dan with blind faith then you would know that. The text clearly said he arrived in the wilderness near the Red Sea and then traveled for three days. Read for yourself. 5 And he came down by the borders near the shore of the Red Sea; and he traveled in the wilderness in the borders which are nearer the Red Sea; and he did travel in the wilderness with his family, which consisted of my mother, Sariah, and my elder brothers, who were Laman, Lemuel, and Sam. 6 And it came to pass that when he had traveled three days in the wilderness, he pitched his tent in a valley by the side of a river of water.

[@danvogel6802]

You should be careful about calling people liars; it only makes you look stupid. The text says they traveled in the wilderness for three days, not the borders. The superscript to the book of Nephi, which was supposedly on the plates (it even says "I, Nephi"), says "He taketh three days' journey into the wilderness with his family." This is discussed in more detail in the first video. The apologists are misinterpreting the text to escape a problem.

[@gxgx1190]

Dan Vogel drop? Lfg!

[@swimbikrun]

It’s really amazing to see apologists make a career out of flimsy coincidences, but it serves the purpose. I’ve had family share the NHM connection as if it were solid evidence of BoM historicity. When you are already convinced of the proposition by personal conviction, anything with even a veneer of believability will suffice.

[@chinookwind8535]

Dan as much as you try the BOFM is not going away it's here to stay

[@danvogel6802]

I don't want the BofM to go away. I don't mind if people believe it's inspired. I just don't think it's real history.

[@pianomanchristopher]

Here again we see apologists shifting the burden of proof. If I claim to have had a vision and that my own book were translated from gold plates given to me by an angel, and you say "no way". I then claim you can't prove me wrong, therefore you must assume I'm telling the truth. That kind of insane logical fallacy is used over and over by otherwise well-respected attorneys defending the church. It's enough to drive critical thinkers insane.

[@RebeccaRaven]

I'm guessing not. I'll be watching to see how I did! ETA: I was right! Why didn't Smilth just go for broke and say that the angels carried everybody south?

[@lilith4924]

The apologists really need to choose between the Hebrew root נחם (as in the prophet Naḥum's name) and the Arabic root نهم (as in the Nihm region of Yemen), because these are not the same three letters and not related. Thank you for calling out this nonsense!

[@chinookwind8535]

Ok dan you like to attack the BOFM if you're so smart ill give 90 days to come up with a 533 page book like the BOFM YOU KNOW you couldnt do it

[@danvogel6802]

Don't be silly.

[@sean9854]

I don’t understand what all the fuss is with the 3 day journey? A Dromedary can travel 80-120 miles in a day and an Arabian horse can travel 50-100 mpd. Biblical scholars argue about the birth of Jesus being in Bethlehem or Nazareth, but we still believe Jesus is the Christ. So whether Lehis 3 days started before or after the wilderness trek seems inconsequential to the veracity of the BOM

[@danblackwelder5261]

No, but Nahum is found with the knight family. NHM

[@4rcgoodwin]

they found steal swords around that time why not bows also?

[@redfightblue]

Everything makes more sense if the journey into the wilderness was into Egypt and then Ethiopia. Lehi was following Ethiopian tradition and migration routes. Here's a few things to consider. The best candidate for the "continually flowing river" is The Nile River in Egypt. It is well known that the Nile flows continually year round and not intermittent after rare rain. Wadi Tayyib Al Ism is intermittent. The Nile is also exactly "3 days journey" from the Red Sea. Carsten Niebuhr confirmed this in 1762 between Aug. 28th and 30th. He wrote that Suez needs it's supplies brought from Cairo "3 days distant". We don't need to guess about this like we do for Wadi Tayyib Al Ism, we can rely on Niebuhr's account. (I personally believe the children of Israel knew this as well when they claimed they wanted to go 3 days into the wilderness and build an altar. To them, the 3 days meant they would reach the Red Sea and escape Egypt. We know they did reach the Red Sea but did not fully escape Egypt until crossing it on dry land.) "3 days journey" was placed on the "New Map of Arabia" on a line between the Nile and the Red Sea. This map was updated by Niebuhr and published in 1794. Once in Egypt Lehi settled on Elephantine Island. This island is known to have Jewish migrants settle there on 600 BC exactly as the BOM establishes. When Nephi said huis father built an "altar of stones", this could be a reference to the beginning of a Jewish Temple Complex that has been discovered there in ruins. The Jewish Temple and Lehi's "altar of stones" are a perfect match for Lehi's "River Camp" on the Nile. Elephantine island has more archeological evidence as well. The name "Sariah" was not known to be a name for a Jewish women until a pottery shard and papyri were found that claimed "Sariah daughter of..." This evidence was found on Elephantine Island and is more evidence for the BOM and Lehi's River Camp. While living in Egypt Lehi would have received Jeremiah 44. This chapter admonishes the Jews that fled to Egypt and warns them of their impending destruction there. Read Jeremiah 44 and apply it to Lehi. To escape destruction in Egypt, Lehi has the Tree of Life Vision. The Vision does several things. 1. It confirms that Jews migrating to Egypt will be destroyed. The Vision and Jeremiah 44 call them "multitudes". 2. It commands Lehi migrate to the Tree of Life. 3. Lehi must take his family to the Tree of Life, even Laman and Lemuel. 4. The Tree of Life is at the "head' of a river. As a Bible believer and having Genesis on the Brass Plates, Lehi would have read Genesis 2:13 which claims one candidate for one of the rivers of Eden is in Ethiopia. It becomes obvious that Lehi must follow the Nile Southward to Ethiopia. Ethiopia is the source of the Nile River (Blue Nile), this is the "head" of the river Lehi saw in the Vision and further supports Genesis 2:13 as Ethiopia for the location of the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life. The journey from Egypt to Ethiopia is South, up the Nile River. This journey was taken by Menelik, the son of King Solomon and recorded in the Kebra Nagast. It was not a unique journey. Lehi would have been following in the footsteps of many Jews that came before him. Jews have been making this journey for thousands of years. Nahom is an Ethiopian word and the Eastward turn might be referencing taking the East Nile (Blue Nile). Nahom is the Ethiopian spelling of Nahum. Nahom is a popular baby boys name in Ethiopia. Search the internet (or youtube) and you find Ethiopian results for "Nahom". There's a strong case for Lehi taking the Korosko road across the Sahara. The reason I bring this up is because the 4th stop on the road is Shaggre which could be Shazer. This would imply the family used "days traveled" when they are in the wilderness away from the river.

[@outlawedmedia4336]

You do realize the story of Lehi crossing to the new world in trans oceanic vessels is absurd right? Lehi and Nephi are fictional characters and so are their stories.

[@aredesuyo]

A few details that line up with one part of the story might sound good, but all that stuff is still isolated to one part of the story, and it doesn't come close to overcoming all the other things that are wrong with the Book of Mormon.

[@nathanwallace9529]

Only, Joseph Smith taught the garden of Eden was in Jackson County Missouri, not Ethiopia. So which is it?

[@redfightblue]

@@nathanwallace9529 Lehi went to great lengths to return to Jerusalem and acquire the Brass Plates. Genesis 2:13 is on the Brass Plates and the BOM claims Lehi studied and read the Brass Plates. If I am correct, and Lehi built the temple on Elephantine Island, and that's where he had the Tree of Life Vision. The River in the Vision would obviously be the Blue Nile and the "head" of the river would be Ethiopia. Ethiopia is the "head" of the Blue Nile. This was well known and documented in Lehi's day. Jews had been reading and relying on Genesis 2:13 for many years before Lehi was born. The Bible documents the Queen of Sheba visiting Solomon. Her journey would have been up and down the Nile. Lehi would have known the Tree of Life is in Ethiopia at the "head" of the Nile. Again, I am looking at things as if Lehi was familiar with the Ethiopian perspective. Only after I did this did everything begin to make sense. We know Lehi was familiar with Jeremiah because he speaks about him being cast into prison. If you read the Bible, who saves Jeremiah from prison? An Ethiopian! Read that again and think about it. Lehi is living in Egypt, he writes that he knows Jeremiah is in prison. An Ethiopian saves Jeremiah from prison. Lehi is commanded to migrate to Ethiopia to be safe from destruction.

[@redfightblue]

@@outlawedmedia4336 I agree. In my post I didn't say anything about Lehi crossing the ocean. Lehi did NOT cross the ocean. I have discovered evidence that leads me to believe Lehi did not sail across the ocean. His sailing voyage was a circumnavigation of Africa. This means he ended where he started and the BOM takes place in Africa. The evidence I'm talking about is the description of the geography of Africa by Herodotus in 500 BC. 100 years after Lehi sailed. Herodotus claimed a sailor mapped Africa and said the following. I'm paraphrasing, you should read it for yourself and confirm what I'm saying. Asia is mostly Desolation. Egypt is Narrow. The Narrow place has a sea on either side. The Distance is defined (1,000 stades). Africa is "bounded by the sea" except the narrow place. Now consider what a descendant of Lehi wrote about the geography of the BOM lands. This all comes from one verse, Alma 22:32. There's a line between Desolation and Bountiful. There's a Small Neck of Land. There's a "Sea to Sea" at the small neck. The Distance is defined. (1.5 days). The Land South is "surrounded by water". If you open your mind a little you can begin to see clearly. Lehi was the sailor. He sailed around Africa. He ended where he started, in Africa. The BOM takes place in Africa. The "Land South" is Africa. Lehi mapped Africa and reported it back. Herodotus wrote it down and later it was written again in Alma 22:32. Both accounts are describing Africa. They are the same. Both accounts refer to Asia as "Desolation" (this is clearly defined in Jeremiah 44 as well). Both accounts are referring to the Isthmus of Suez as the "Narrow Neck of Land". Both accounts are referring to the Red Sea and the Mediterranean Sea. Both accounts define the Distance across the Isthmus of Suez. Both accounts record the fact the Africa is surrounded by water on the South and connected to Asia by a narrow neck of land. The BOM was written in Africa. Look at any internal map of BOM Lands and you will begin to see Africa. You can see the Isthmus of Suez. You can see the Sahara. You can see the Nile River flowing North and emptying into the sea near the Isthmus of Suez. Lehi was commanded to migrate to Ethiopia. That's the Land of Nephi and Manti. This is where much of the BOM takes place. Zarahemla is North in the Zahara Deseret. Destruction comes to those in Egypt according to Jeremiah 44. Lehi migrated to Ethiopia to avoid destruction. Read Helaman 3. This chapter describes a migration North to Egypt. "treeless", "cement", and "shipping" all describe Egypt but that's just the beginning. Why does Helaman 3:6 rebut the concept of Desolation? What did Jeremiah 44 say about Egypt becoming a desolation like Israel? The Nephites are destroyed in Egypt after they migrate back North to Egypt in Helaman 3 (and other places in the BOM). They would have remained safe in Ethiopia. The Jews that stayed in Ethiopia were there until after WWII when they migrated back to Israel. This destruction in Egypt is what Lehi was trying to avoid since the beginning and yet sadly, it was prophesized by the Angel to Nephi since the beginning. In 1 Nephi 12 the angel tells Nephi the year and manner his seed will be destroyed. The angel tells Nephi his seed will be destroyed on the "same" river as the one Lehi saw in the vision (1 Nephi 12:16). This happens after the migrate back to Egypt in 400 AD. The River in the vision is the Nile. Destruction always happens in Egypt according to Jeremiah 44 and the Tree of Life Vision and what the Angel said. Egypt is "Forbidden" according to the Book of Abraham and Lehi sees the 'multitudes" falling onto "Forbidden Paths". The Jaredites were also destroyed in Egypt. Their destruction is recorded in the Book of Ether. Ether describes how they migrated to the narrow neck of land, build large buildings, wore fine linen and were destroyed. The Narrow Neck of Land is the Isthmus of Suez. The Tree of Life Vision shows Lehi what happened to the Jaredites. They are the "prophets of old".

[@sk7ecd]

ah yes, dan vogel, the new expert on linguistics and archeology .i thought he had learned better than to veer outside of his training and but here we are again,, i supposr.this will be fun.

[@Telavian]

Why attack him instead of the evidence? Either he is right or he is wrong. If he is wrong then please show us how.

[@sdfotodude]

This why I don't rely on the Cosplay Paul Brothers

[@krismurphy7711]

And the Young Brothers…?.? And the “experts” they consulted/relied upon? Lol. What a joke

[@orisonorchards4251]

Not only does Dan Vogel know more about all things Mormonism than you stick of Joseph bros put together and squared, he's intellectually HONEST. You bros don't have a clue what that means.

[@outlawedmedia4336]

ad hominem attacks hardly removes the validity of evidence he puts forward. Unlike Joseph Smith's claims of "It's true because it feels good"