Nameless Things Origins - LOTR's True Lovecraftian Creatures That Even Gandalf And Sauron Feared!

[@Volper1]

I personally like the theory that the nameless things came about out of the Discord of Melkor. When the Ainor sung the world into being, the Discord of Melkor birthed the “nameless things.” This would explain how they are older than Sauron, who is almost as old as the world itself.

[@princecharmling14]

I'm pretty sure that's Canon. 🤘

[@lukasbauer8783]

Sauron is older than the world and like all the Ainur he definitely was older than the great music. It is easy to imagine that there could be plenty of effects of the discord that he had no idea existed though.

[@funkygandalfcat4259]

What if before the destruction of Untumno, the last order Morgoth gave to his Nameless Things was to hide in darkest depths of the world and keep digging the extensive tunnels of Untumno, and when the time comes, they would strike right from under the noses of the their enemies at Dagor Dagorath?

[@jayduffy5532]

The nameless could be reference to the great old ones of mythology from Lovecraft lore the ones that dwell in the darkest realms of forgotten history

[@DarkLadyAthena1]

Agreed.

[@robertbarrows6687]

What if Eru created the LOTR universe from an already dead universe, and sealed the monsters from the past universe away so they wouldn't destroy his new creation?

[@2shadesofgray752]

Before this world existed there was nothing and before there was nothing there were monsters

[@Leen713]

This was really interesting. Showed another layer to Tolkien's lore that I had not known about. Thanks!

[@mecurio541]

Imagine that when biblo fell to the abyss in Goblin town he had found himself in the same situation as gandalf in moria surrounded by unspeakable horrors instead of just Gollum.

[@JoseMolina-ij3xx]

I think it's not light and dark, but rather order vs chaos. The nameless things are chaos incarnate after all. It's much like Chaos from the Dragonlance series in that the minions cause serious problems that are indescribable and horrific. It's so dangerous to deal with that both Evil and Good had to fight for their existence to overcome Chaos.

[@jokiklos7009]

It's amazing how Lovecraft influenced every single author in the 20th century

[@chimera916]

True, absolutely, but we should not forget that R.E.Howard did a great work too with Lovecraft

[@jokiklos7009]

@@chimera916 yep. Howard loved cribbing off of Lovecraft that's for certain

[@jakeronald568]

You managed to stretch 2 minutes of content into 15 minutes. Congrats

[@owenjones7522]

Just dont watch it if it annoys you🤨

[@Alucaidt]

​@@owenjones7522 that makes no sense

[@RodneyG669]

True story, he kept using the same phrases over and over, the quote from Gandalf for example.

[@paultatum2114]

Sauron is not even close to the most heinous villain in Tolkien lore.

[@testickles8834]

I know right? the short dude with hairy feet was shady af

[@darkhobo]

@@testickles8834 dude was a burglar. Obviously the bad guy!

[@AlexLopez-vm7uq]

@@testickles8834 *Maeglin, Morgoth, Ungoliant, Those who participated in The Elven Kinslaying, The War of Dwarves and Elves... and many evil things have been done LONG before Sauron was even The Lord of The Rings (._.) Ancalagon the Black, HELL EVEN GLAURUNG The Father of Dragons is guilty of a Dark and Twisted Crime arguably worse than Sauron, if you know you know (:/) !*

[@testickles8834]

@@AlexLopez-vm7uq /r woosh

[@ryanwalker8843]

Hes not the most heinous but it's also pretty inaccurate to say hes not even close. Hes in the top 10 list for sure. Why has everyone gotta talk in extremes hes either the most heinous or 'not even close' to the most heinous both wrong hes not the most but to pretend like hes not right up there is also inaccurate.

[@Fallingtower969]

I wonder if Tolkien knew of or read Lovecraft.

[@masamune2984]

7:02 Great video, but semi-incorrect. While the nameless things could have been secret weapons, many were not. Remember, even Morgoth knew not where Ungoliant originated from, save for the darkness of the Void, and he feared her, perhaps more than any save Eru Iluvatar himself, for she was mightier than Melkor, and hungrier. Darkness incarnate. Of the kind even Morgoth who was Melkor feared for her lack of light. The “unlight” of Ungoliant, whom even the Dark Lord, Lord of the Dark, trembled under.

[@jacob221100]

exactly silmarilion gave pretty sufficent explanation on that , i would just add that Tolkien used term "worm" essentially just for dragons as a kind of insult .

[@ryanwalker8843]

I find Ungoliant kind of interesting because of her more primal nature like that because its almost like she doesn't have as much culpability for her own actions shes just this kind of dark insatiable hunger. To the point where it's her own undoing literally. Also there are lots of things in the video that are off. Filled with 'Catholic themes' erm no tolkien is very clear that he is far more inspired by norse mythology than catholic mythology. Man was an expert in things like anglo saxon and the Norse epics. I guess the real problem with looking into the more esoteric side of tolkiens lore is in many ways he never fully finished it. He spent most of his adult life working on the lore tweaking things like there at points being stuff about many balrogs and then he decided to cut it down to 7 he kind of was continually evolving it and doing retcons I guess you could call it today. So simply put there are many mysteries he never really got around to fully ironing out.

[@jay-1800]

@@ryanwalker8843 Tolkien went out of his way to say that not everything in his writing should be an allegory for Christianity

[@andrewcross5290]

​@@jay-1800exactly, whilst C.S. Lewis was all for that 🤣

[@lukasbauer8783]

While I think this is true in the older layer of the Legendarium, in later years Tolkien increasingly obsessed about making bis Work "theologically correct", which I think was sometimes to it's detriment, making Elements of it less exciting than the wilder, more "pagan" stuff from earlier phases of his work. There is a text in "History of Middle-Earth: Morgoth's Ring" that fleshes out Morgoth meeting Ungolianth and working with her much more and doubles down on him knowing her very Well, her being a former servant of his who left and being vastly less powerful than and quite terrified and intimidated by him. Melkor less strikes a deal and more bullies her into submission to serve him once more and she quickly resorts to calling him Master again. It's only after he infused her with a chunk of his own power to make her strong enough for the task AND on top of that she drinks the light of the two trees that suddenly and for the first time she becomes powerful enough to be a threat to him in his already vastly diminished state. It's sad in a way, because Ungolianth the in-explicable, primordial, eldritch monster from the timeless void was in some regards clearly cooler than later Ungolianth who either was some product of secret experiments or the discord in the music or quite likely "only" another "normal" fallen angel, just one preferring a horrific animalistic form. Still, ultimately I think all of the possible explanations have something going for them, the more norse mythology derived and the quasi lovecraftian ones (supportable especially when one looks at older texts like the Lost Tales) but also the secret weapon theory that works quite well to Show Melkor/Morgoth as a vastly more powerful, vastly more cunning, badass, competent, forward planning and terrifying/threatening Big Bad than one would ever thought based on the published Silmarillion alone.

[@jordanazevedo5688]

Funny thing is the lord of rings online let’s you explore the depths and see there interpretation of the nameless things

[@trenchcoatbandit]

i want the nameless things in the next shadow of war game. if they do another one that is

[@riverplate0101]

They are from beyond the void.

[@tonysan4762]

The nameless things could simply be the waste byproduct of creation.

[@chimera916]

Or the progenies of things older than Eru Illuvatar himself.

[@Cauin450]

I understand there are few who might agree with this, but I believe we all unestimated Melkor’s understanding or perhaps didn't see it as a logical conclusion. I believe Melkor figured out what the secret fire was: Eru Ilúvatar’s own Soul. So he did not go off into the void looking for the secret fire, he knew where it was. He was making something, possibly several something’s using his own soul as the catalyst and fuel. He was experimenting and the result was the nameless things.

[@DarkLadyAthena1]

That's a very good theory.

[@ricardojuanlopeznaranjo6651]

Don't call Sauron by the name of Halbrand LOL. It's so mistery box LOL. The Rings of Poverty.

[@dominicrigsby8547]

Incel alert

[@theblackflame4002]

Halbrand is not going to be Sauron, he's going to be Angmar the witch king. Then again....I base that on what I know of Tolkien's works so......who knows what they'll do, but it would really disconnect it from the LOTR lore/movies

[@yurikendal4868]

It would seem that these creatures came out of Melkors creation. It's like these creatures are multi dimensional. They extend into the Warhammer universe as well, Cthulhu types. Creatures who simply exist to ruin and destroy.

[@lhadzyan7300]

The issue of Gandalf avoiding to talk of them whereas he does a lot about the Balrog seems to said A LOT about the Nameless Things than what it´s properly said of them. Therefore I think they were some of the last things he discussed with Tom Bombadill on that unknown last meeting both gotten before the wizard left Middle-Earth. As Bombadill is himself another type of uncanny and unsolved mystery but of good nature, seems as Gandalf wanted to make him guardian and the proper counterpart against the Nameless Things if by chance they apear outside where they usually dwell. And as Tom has proven so resistant to both the powers of the One Ring and overcame the hideous Barrow Wights, Gandalf kinda hopes the Nameless Things might be something he needs to take a watch over too. (I don´t think of Gandalf leaving the Middle Earth so easily after knowing that sort of lasting unknown evil within there, furtherlymore as he manage to get rid of a lot of foes before and not just Sauron alone, because Smaug and the Balrog of Moria weren´t part of the initial duties of him, so... why not do something against those Nameless Things outside of the narrator´s knowledge on the Lord of the Rings with the only one mysterious good source on Middle-Earth as it´s Tom Bombadill after all?)

[@soulreaver1983]

Thanks for another outstanding video 🙂👍

[@TheRAMBO9191]

We need a 10 min love death robots of if nameless things were disturbed

[@litjellyfish]

Reason Gandalf don’t remember anything from his time with the Valar is that all Maia that went to middle earth had all memories of their time before wiped.

[@lordodin1973]

“And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.” ~ Eru Ilúvatar

[@rpscorp9457]

Things of Power would have been a better series that what we were just given.

[@stinkymccheese8010]

They were the corrupted Maia that sided with Melkor.

[@lordschnitzel7961]

No that were the Balrogs.

[@mikeximenez5285]

Yeah no they’re not lmao

[@BurnRoddy]

@@lordschnitzel7961 You're assuming as if the balrogs were the o ly outcome of corruption when Tolkien never says so.

[@alejandromelendez1609]

@@lordschnitzel7961 Sauron is proof that not all corrupted Maiar became Balrogs.

[@masamune2984]

I’m not saying I “believe” in it, and am not religious per-say, but one of my favorite, weird beliefs I enjoy from both Catholicism/Christianity (among many other religions) and Tolkien is that of the “fallen, mightiest angel,” whom “God” knows to be the most corrupt, but he he/she/they appreciate, because without their temptations and attempted corruptions of “God’s children,” things like courage, virtue, valor, and hope would not have existed in the universe, and were thus both part of God’s plan, but beyond God’s ability without letting events unfold beyond Their control. Free will,order, AND chaos incarnate, all for the betterment of all in a second, even better world because of those new themes introduced by the very discord and “evil” rebellious angels that meant to deceive and ruin it, so that ALL may enjoy and embrace in it when all is said and done, and grievances set aside, even for Morgoth/Satan, after the “last battle.” 🙂

[@theblackflame4002]

A star can only shine because of the darkness around it

[@daltoncain5421]

Souron was only malcore lieutenant dude was just a sidekick not the most heinous but great video

[@lhadzyan7300]

I sense that the Nameless Things could be indeed something created as a secret weapon of Melkor/Morgoth hidden since the very beggining of all when he entered in Arda and they helped to create both his mostly subterranean fortesses, Utumno and later Angband, because I don´t see himself doing all the digging on building them alone as in The Silmarillion kinda states on, and makes sense with the burrowing nature of them. However pretty much as Ungoliant might be also some sort of mix-up on both the discord music done after the clash of the Ainulindale havoc between Eru Illuvatar´s theme and Melkor´s variations, and also SOMETHING ELSE which kinda infiltrated from OUTSIDE of Eru´s barrier surrounding his domains hidden on the Outer Void in sheer darkness but which maybe worked as some sort of glass bubble fish-tank to protect his creation from whatever lies outside in the void and it´s also kept hidden from both sides so when Melkor went seeking out, he just go around in circles without going actually into pure void endless itself but never go out and seems that didn´t saw anything there, however maybe SOMETHING DID SAW HIM in a glimpse and so became corrupted in the first place, ...and well... it seems that maybe Eru Illuvatar it´s just the only Great One with his creation but OUTSIDE it, maybe he is just special for being the only one which is GOOD, but not so powerfull and well... maybe his creation has started over and over endless times - though he kept perfecting it lasting more - as something else usually messed with him ruining all eventually over and over time - and even could happen in the future. (However these ideas of course meant cosmic-horror way of thinking that is against the Christian influences he used for his work so... the avoided to develop more about it regardless of how actually very complex and interesting might became, so that´s why the Nameless Things and Ungoliant´s true nature, origins and fate are so ambiguous and left unfinished as he liked both keeping mystery and also... couldn´t be able to develop better in risk of ruining the core foundations on what he was building up!1)

[@lukasbauer8783]

His earlier writing wasn't yet as obsessed with being "theologically correct". For example one of the early versions of the Second Prophecy of Mandos implied that Melko actually might win the battle of Dagor Dagorath and destroy the Valar forever, while in later writings he insisted that Morgoth never stood a chance. That might be a comforting thought, but the earlier version sure makes for higher stakes. While Ungolianth is hinted to be a spirit native to the outer void and since the void is basically defined as where creation and Eru's thought are not, it seems at least thinkable that there might be some entities existing outside and independent of Eru's creation. Perhaps the void itself has some kind of mind or will of it's own that Melkor might have been influenced by during all the non-time be spent there. The forgotten tales in one place also allude to a possible different and older set of gods, existing before and independent of the Valar. Somehow I have to think of the quaballistic idea of prior, discarded creations that God considered flawed. The remnants of such a prior creation could be threatening and toxic to a newer iteration. Hypothetical sapient survivors would have good reason to be resentful. Frankly I also never fully bought Eru being truly fully good. Melkor clearly had some troubling character traits and defects of character from since he was created from Eru's thoughts and arguably with his desire to create and to be Lord over himself and others Melkor is really more similar to Eru than any of the other Valar. Humans who Eru in some way seems to privilege over all his other creations and whom he of course created alone, nonetheless have more in common with Melkor than with all other Ainur. Eru's weird aesthetic/artistic vision also seems to be clearly far more important to him than than the suffering of any actual, individual creature. The endstate of Arda Healed as Tolkien described it in one of his little philosophical essays doesn't sound particularly desirable either, a world completely frozen in eternal stasis and one finds oneself asking what will happen to those who don't buy that the supposed beauty of the finished "work of art" was worth all the horror and endless slaughter. It's telling that Tolkien doesn't even try to justify what Eru is doing with any talk of justice or love, but completely focuses on aesthetics alone, apparently expecting that everyone (it's not clear who the intended audience really is, the diesembodied fear and the Ainur presumably, the Eldar probably having been discarded like rubbish and ceasing to exist with the old Arda) to be just so overwhelmed and dazzled that no further questions about the how and why are asked. Eru reminds me in this regard of an cold, aloof, merciless and manipulative divine artist who cares just about the aesthetics of the final state of his creation that is "enriched" by the existence of vast amounts of (eternal) suffering, the "Star Maker", the conception of God in the novel (?) of the same name (well I guess it is basically the same type of work as the Silmarillion is, just scifi instead of fantasy) by visionary scifi pioneer Sir Olaf Stapeldon. Anyway, Melkor being Eru's closely resembling mini me, I thought about the lurianic quaballah some more and how according to it God in hiss original state as Ein Sof contains everything, both good and evil, and how actualizing creation serves to gradually fabricate an outside to the divine self where the divine evil can be dumped as God purges himself of it. Melkor from such a perspective might be Eru's own externalised dark side, and so might be the Nameless Things and earlier, much more horrific creations they are survivors off, that got the real motherload of Eru's own rottenness. On one hand that process that process would seem to make Eru increasingly more good and pure, but it still would come across as quite callous, causing huge amount of suffering via his self therapy, and from a Jungian perspective it might even be viewed as unhealthy because Eru is trying to rid himself of and externalize his "Shadow", dumping it on others created specifically for that purpose, instead of facing it and integrating it in a constructive way.

[@lhadzyan7300]

@@lukasbauer8783 these ideas were so AMAZING and so sad that over time, Tolkien got more conservative and restrictive with his own theological correctness ideas, and didn´t used some quite richer and complex interesting heterodoxic ideas about his core-foundations about his creation on Eru´s nature himself and how he worked which made better sense then to Melkor´s corruption, Ungoliant´s existence and other lesser yet very obscure issues as the Nameless Things. Sadly Tolkien didn´t got stuck on his previous ideas as he got matured and swifted on interests and goals becoming conservative and more closer narrowed-orthodox in thought and so restrictive with his own worldbuilding ideas.

[@lukasbauer8783]

@@lhadzyan7300 I totally agree. Yes, I clearly would have found such explorations more fascinating yet and less confining. But on the other hand Tolkien's Work is of course still unique and exceedingly great and Tolkien would have had to be quite a different person altogether. Speculating about these tantalizing possibilities is endless fun and some of the arbitrary seeming limitations he sets for himself and us can be a tad frustrating, but at the end of the day I'm first and foremost glad that Tolkien shared his genius with us at all, writing the best stories and world building that possibly could have been written WITHIN the confines of his theological orthodoxy.

[@lhadzyan7300]

@@lukasbauer8783 Yeah of course there OUGHT to be always ever OVERSTATED that Tolkien STILL remains being GREAT on his own right even with the eventual orthodox-restrainings within his worldbuilding philosophical foundations too much linked on a higher conservative-restrictive views as he changed his mind after getting older on. However still after finding the alternative views he got when younger and with a broader less-restrictive mind-settings about theological issues, this explains a lot of left-over scattered obscure pieces of his world building puzzle which were left alone and forsaken as the Nameless Things and Ungoliant´s existence or Melkor´s corruption in the first place, and well... he kinda got into more proper dogmatic theological connundrums away from proper logics later on when explaining that than before it as Eru Illuvatar wasn´t then yet the same Divine Being as the Biblical Catholic deity later on. The most troublesome issue about bringing up these unused ideas of the younger Tolkien, it that they made so much trouble and anger reactions on some groups of fans, which sadly happened to be the most common leading one voices about Tolkien´s canon and oftenly are disregarding the younger Tolkien ideas in behalf of the more elder and mature one, just because indeed a lot of those ideas got indeed better still DOESN´T MEANT ALL THOSE WERE BETTER as a whole!!! That´s the main issue of strife and trouble when regarding this knowledge which is already justified within some traces on the younger Tolkien ideas, as for sample the total defeat of the Valar at the Dagor Dagorath is actually AWESOME and kinda a karmic fate well gained as they were so USELESS overall regarding their roles as Guardians of Arda. Then it makes so much greater sense why Melkor ends being defeated by a Maiar as Eönwe and a Man as Turin too and not by even Tulkas which defeated him before, as some more humble-lower nature beings defeat the pridefullest one as much how he also defeated the Valar too.

[@paulraines9635]

I didn't like the sea monster in ROP. Kinda makes Ulmo seem asleep at the wheel, which is against his character. I always felt that the Watcher was a creature from beneath the earth, not the ocean.

[@Rotisiv]

I’m sorry but if Eru truly represents the Abrahamic God whom Tolkien believes in, then not only is He flawless and wise in all He does but He’s really the only One who is able to create and to give life. No other being would normally share this intrinsic attribute that’s exclusive to the One God. Also, the Nameless Things simply feel different and out of place than anything Morgoth could come up with, just look at Ungoliant who definitely did not serve him and who is just as mysterious as those things under Moria. if anything Melkor was the one who was afraid of her after she sucked up the light of the Two Trees. The Nameless things feel Lovecraftian and eldritch even Gandalf was afraid of them much more than that Balrog of Morgoth which is horrifying in and of itself. I think it was even mentioned in the lays of the Children of Hurin in the History of Middle-Earth that there were shrines hidden in secret places for the worship of *nameless gods* older than both Morgoth and the Valar. Though I’m not sure about the canonicity of any of it but still the message is clear: that there is shit out there which is far worse than both Morgoth and Sauron and far older.

[@lukasbauer8783]

Later christian theology painted him as flawless by definition (while at the same time portraying him as an infinitely worse torturer than Morgoth could ever even aspire to) but the Bible certainly has him as very much an eldritch monstrosity Not only gloating about his own caprice but also reveling in being the creator and master of hellish, grotesque monsters of cosmic proportions that at one point are even explicitely described as his pets. The church fathers on one hand sanitized him but also kept him being domineering, manipulative, vengeful and sadistic, because that was what they themselves were. Tolkien actually went much further sanitizing him, by avoiding him slaughtering people biblical style (except in the sole case of Numenor and even there he goes to vastly, incomparably greater length to show that the Numenoreans REALLY had it coming than the bible ever bothers to do with any of Yahwe's massacres while still giving the strong impression that this is normally not Eru's style at all), as well as being unambigiously against various moral horrors Like slavery from the beginning and never even hinting at him eternally torturing people for thoughtcrime in the afterlife (Tolkien pretty much almost got into a fight with a Catholic priest who gloated about how all people who ever lived before Christianity were eternally tortured in hell merely for the "misfortune" of being born before christ and totally deserved it, and he only ever uses the term hell to describe the dark fortresses of Morgoth. Biblical Yahwe would fit right in as Ungolianth's creator and Ungolianth and the Nameless Things would make fitting sibings for Leviathan.

[@kirbymarchbarcena]

I think there are more that the lore has yet to mention. I bet the Blue Wizards are continuously encountering many of these until Dagor Dagorath arrives since their fates were conclusively unknown

[@irh9838]

When he said older and fouler things it was towards the balrog not the nameless things as they are far older than he

[@Dirpman42]

I'd like to think they were a byproduct of Morgoth being a shit at creation and unexpectedly were sprung into being alongside Ungoliant and the others. However they're more of a wild card and not aligned with Morgoth or anyone. All kind of the Azathoth way of complete destruction.

[@joeshmoe6930]

If the Watcher crept, or more likely was pushed, out... that implies that this nameless thing [the Watcher] is a small, and less terrifying nameless thing. Able to be pushed by something, or some things, much fouler. More ancient than Sauron, would normally mean more ancient than he, whether present or not.

[@ryanwalker8843]

Erm no tolkiens writings is not full of 'catholic themes' it's full of Norse mythology themes.

[@victuss1413]

Its filled with both lol . Minus the singing, the fall of melkor is similar in nature to lucifer. Tolkien was catholic and had a keen interest in norse mythology and language, but to discredit the Christian influence is inane.

[@BurnRoddy]

So basically this is trying to pass whatever the Rings of Power come up with as canon. Well no, its still just expanded universe, and that's not a bsd thing. Ir allows the creators of the show while also respecting the source material.

[@jay-1800]

You should do a little more research because there’s points that you make or things that you try to explain that aren’t in line with Tolkien’s writing.

[@ChimpingBulldog]

Talk about repetitive.

[@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115]

why are you using footage from Amazon's"da rangz o'pawah"?

[@ChainsawMixx]

lick cheese violet mather futher

[@dominicrigsby8547]

Hurt incel fan boy alert

[@jeffreyjeffrey1935]

Why u hatin

[@jamestherockwilson3931]

Tell me you're racist without saying it explicitly

[@starforce1003]

Not one person in England speaks like that.

[@justinah7400]

Promoting that joke of an adaptation "Rings of Power"? 👎

[@AdamMaley]

Rings of Power is poop.

[@malachi9898]

So basically all this is a ripoff of Christianity.

[@johncollins211]

Everything is son pay attention.

[@mikeximenez5285]

Pretty much this whole video is about everything except the nameless things. Big fail for marvelous today