Negative Rake Scraping

Negative Rake Scrapers are low risk tools that are great for refining the final shape of your work. And although the finish they leave on the work is not quite as clean as shear scraping, it is often clean enough to start sanding with 150 or 180 grit. They are low risk because, unlike when conventional scraping, they are "neutral" in the sense that very little energy transfers from the work to the tool, so little that they can even be used safely directly into end grain on face work! There is a downside, however, which is that the burr on a negative rake scraper is fragile and does not last long. No need to fret, though, because there are several things that we can do to mitigate this downside.
Cover tool: Negative Rake Bowl Scraper (reground from an Ashley Iles scraper.)
Woods:
- Black Walnut
- Ash (The green bowl from the Sep. President's Challenge)
- Hard Maple (spindle)
- Soft Maple (end-grain hollowing)

[@michaelschneider9710]

RIP Brian, thanks for all that you left us...

[@daleburdick1501]

Very good teacher...Clear and. On use and is easy to listen to. Watching you for 3 years. Thanks for your time.

[@RayShaw007]

First class Brian. I like coming back to your vids because it doesn't all go in first time. The detail you go into is excellent and helps the viewer to understand better what's going on. You have done the community of woodturners a great service and it is much appreciated by many.

[@daviddejong187]

I keep coming back to his videos also. It's way too bad that he is no longer with us.

[@rso1411]

This is by far the best explanation I have seen on scrapers. Thank you so much for posting this.

[@garyjohnson9297]

Thank you for explaining the how to of negative rake tool use. A very informative video , andI plan to watch your others

[@jedtaylor3551]

As a "self taught" personal experiment.........I hope that you understand the value of your videos to a rook like me as a work in process, on a budget, your series helps me make prudent moves to advance. On my first project, after I pulled out a Delta 12' swing rusting in my shop, with no knowledge of what to do with any tool....I destroyed the starter skew in my kit........now that I have some skills - I still have not replaced the tool In the present I am doing a lot of "paper shaping" with the expectation that I'll get better Now I know where to go to get back on the horse........thanks

[@TheOtherGuybo]

I'm brand new to the world of turning and totally loving it. This is an excellent series of videos - thank you for publishing them and sharing your knowledge.

[@alansimpson596]

Thank you Brian. I've just ground a negative rake on a scraper for the first time and this video has helped me to understand more of exactly what is happening.

[@Lee-qp6gf]

Exceptional. I reground my negative rake scraper off to conventional and said "the heck with them"I see what I didn't understand then and I'll look at trying them again. Thanks for your time on this series.

[@vrb1960]

Nice series Brian, looking forward to continuing.

[@johnhoogenhout6686]

Master teacher strikes again! Great stuff. Thank you Brian.

[@raysmith1028]

G'day Brian. Thanks for producing a Vid on Negative Rake Scrappers. There are only a few like you who have that special ability to impart your knowledge in a professional common sense manner. It's the best I've seen so it's in my Bookmarks file and will provide more happy hours of learning. Much appreciated

[@RICKYDENNIS49]

Great stuff Brian, thanks for sharing your skills with us all. Keep up the good work, Ricky

[@jeffdeluca1153]

Thank you for these vids! Very helpful as I'm fairly green at turning. The techniques work precisely as you detail! The safety hints are greatly appreciated also!

[@geoffgwyther7269]

i have watched dozens of vids on turning , I can honestly say the info on this one vid is the most usefull of all I have seen.. Thank you. I have a lot of used farriers rasps. 2"x1/4" cross section, so, off to the workshop to make a selection of new toys.

[@jimd2618]

Brian, You do a great job of teaching. I really enjoy your videos, and learn a lot from them. I am almost a seasoned turner, and find you fine tune my skills. Thank you for the great job. Jim

[@ErikPeterson1]

Really great video on this, really filled in some blanks in my knowledge. I can come back to this video in the future as a refresher. Thank you!

[@NEB3310]

Brain, thanks for a pretty comprehensive overview and demos of negative rake scraping. I've learned a lot from all your videos. Very professional and well produced. Keep up the good work. - rick

[@kevingeaney7741]

Congratulations Brian, wonderful coverage of all the fundamentals, the best there is in my opinion.

[@gordroberts53]

Thanks Brian: Another well produced and informative video. My thanks to Willem to asking the question that was in my mind for most of the video. I've found this entire series extremely helpful and continue to review them as previews to specific tasks. Wonderful body of work, thank-you. Cheers, Gord

[@muziqjazz]

Thanks again Brian for sharing your experience and knowledge. Marc

[@debbiewilson4655]

this is fantastic,cant believe I havent been shown this in my class's..thanks for your help.Dave from New Zealand

[@donbomer5630]

Very informative, Brian. I just finished youjr three scraper videos and I've really learned a lot. Thanks for sharing.

[@DanielVilarino]

Hi Brian! Great video my friend! I love the whole series. Cheers! Daniel

[@anthonymaida5718]

Excellent video Brian

[@raysmith1028]

Thanks Brian an excellent tutorial.

[@tombarnes4540]

I need to get Neg. Rake Scraper you make it look so easy Thanks for the Demo and the info. Great job

[@stanjudd2552]

Hi Brian , I like watching your videos you explain things very well . Thanks .

[@GordonRock1]

Awesome tutorial with very clear explanations! Thanks for sharing this. Take care, .....Gord

[@freemti62]

Great stuff! Gives me confidence to use my scrapers more and not feel like I'm not a "real" turner.

[@jriley3019]

Excellent video and I can't wait to get a negative rake scraper. My bowl turning has been alright with various types of wood but the tear out has been hard to deal with while using quality scrapers. Thanks again!

[@johnfordham9791]

Good tutorial and clear insstruction

[@rcwarship]

Brian, thank you very much for taking the time to make/share your videos. They are so very useful & contain so much usable information. Thanks Again & Best Regards, Jon

[@Sillyturner]

I have been using negative rake scraping for a while now and love it. Also use a burnishing tool to renew burr right at lathe, makes for fewer trips to grinder. Also a play on words. You said you had some pretty good tear out towards the end of your video. I have never found any tear out to be pretty or good.

[@hermit3400]

Wow! As a beginner I found this video to an excellent one!

[@amezcuaist]

This is such an impressive video demonstration Very grateful to you Brian . I presume the upper edge simply prevents the chisel from "entering" the wood surface. I had to ponder on that for a while . Also the burr will only work on one side at a time.(Between visits to the grinder ). I hope I got all that right. Superb video .

[@georgepostins5785]

Thanks for doing these helpful video's

[@cornwasher]

Well the negative rake scraper is the new must have tool. It seems to make reasonable smoothing cuts where the skew is less reliable in the hands of a novice. Being a novice, am just recognizing the importance of tool vs grain structure and the effects they have in achieving the desired shape and finish. Also, the inability to recognize those fundamentals seems to be the difference between success and failure when coupled with tool selection. I think most of us beginners recognize the difference in saw blades for cross cut and ripping wood. That's probably where the knowledge stops except for the occasional use of a wood chisel. So, a firm grasp of the basics of how a tool and wood behave when the blade makes contact is essential to moving forward with successful wood turning.

[@BHavensWoodworker]

+MM Reporter Could not have said it better. :)

[@DKWalser]

Brian -- I've really enjoyed this series and cannot thank you enough for it. I think the series is useful to both new and experienced turners. I've tried to drive traffic to your KZbin channel by recommending the series on various woodturning forums. With regards to negative rake scrapers, I think you've done a better job than most in explaining why a negative rake scraper works so well. I think that it's more than just the fact the upper bevel makes it difficult for the angle of cut (if I'm using that term correctly) to exceed 90 degrees. That explains why there's less of a risk of a catch with a negative rake scraper. It doesn't explain why a negative rake scraper cuts differently than a regular scraper. You can get the same angle of cut by presenting a regular scraper in a trailing position. Yet a negative rake scraper cuts differently than does a regular scraper used in a trailing position. It's less "grabby" and is easier to control. Why is that? I think part of the explanation is that the upper bevel changes the direction the energy of the cut is translated to the tool. With a regular scraper, that energy is always perpendicular to the tool handle. With a negative rake scraper, the energy is always less than 90 degrees to the tool handle. I think this translates into a tool that's easier to control. Finally, all the negative rake scrapers you showed had the cutting edge in the middle of the blade's thickness. That is, the upper bevel and lower bevel are of roughly equal length and are at the same angle. I don't think that's the way most turners grind their negative rake scrapers. For mine, there is a very short upper bevel with the cutting edge at about 80% of the tool's thickness or less (measured from the bottom of the tool). This gives more metal to support the burr and allows for a larger, more durable, burr to be raised. At least, that's what I think is happening. When I use my skew as a negative rake scraper, I have to raise a burr more frequently than I do with my other negative rake scrapers.

[@robertocoiante1981]

@DKWalser, C,è da fare una considerazione a mio avviso importante, non tutti parlano la vostra lingua quindi ritengo che in certi casi è più utile vedere un bel filmato di come si costruisce un utensile senza troppa retorica. Mi perdoni Brian , spero che la tecnologia di Yoo Tube presto faccia una traduzione simultanea. Complimenti per il lavoro.

[@wilbertolugo8700]

hey! thank you for sharing your wonderful knowledge. awesome and clear explanation.. be well thanks again

[@tompalmer334]

thanks for the video i learned a bunch still a novice but i am learning control and touch from the program

[@sheehyhouse7678]

great video thanks for all theinformation .

[@GarageWoodworks]

I always enjoy your tutorials! And I don't even own a lathe :)

[@hraun2berg]

Hi Brian, I like that thought of yours of turning lessons. I own a little lathe on a table, so please take into consideration of turning small things like gobles, little bowles, small bpxes and so on. I know that it could not be alwais so, but maby time and again. Best regards, Júlíus. oh, I'm practising the skew thease days and getting a hang of it.

[@devendran2737]

very nice sir👌

[@Hernanvelez-qc8qi]

master.....felicitaciones ....

[@BHavensWoodworker]

Notes and errata: - A few times I say "Negative Scraping" when I should have said "Negative Rake Scraping" - I forgot to mention during the end grain hollowing that you could also use a traditional round nose scraper to shear scrape larger work to cleanup after hollowing, but with smaller work, it can be tricky to avoid catching the upper half of the scraper; ergo the negative rake scraper. - The use-enco part number for tools bit that I use to make my mini negative rake scrapers is 317-9792

[@johnwachter6975]

Nice video I just purchased a negative rake scraper and have a better understanding of how to use the scraper.

[@jerhall95945]

Brian, As always a fine teaching video. Some reflections: I don't think the wood knows the difference between a negative rake scraper and a conventional scraper. It does know the difference in how the edge and two surfaces are presented to the wood. A conventional scraper with the edge at center and the same included angle will behave the same if the handle is raised so the top bevel is at the same angle as the top bevel of the negative rake scraper. But the tool rest would be very high and it would be very awkward, hence the primary advantage of a negative rake scraper. Another advantage as pointed out is the ability to flip a symmetrically shaped negative rake scraper so you have a left and right hand scraper in one. I suspect the catching force is less because the top surface is sloped, splitting the force vector between down and back. A conventional scraper, as you point out, has a longer lived edge (if ground at a steep angle) and is better at sheer scraping. I think this is because of the reduced force on the upper surface and the increased mass at the edge.

[@GaryLundgrenCrafts]

Great video! I learned a lot about negative edge scrapers. I am an amateur turner and haven't gotten to bowls yet, altho I have two blanks ready for it. I bought some finesse negative edge scrapers from Ted Sokolowski for spindle work. I'll search your channel for a vid on sharpening those, despite how simple it seems to look. I'm sure there are some techniques to learn. I have subscribed to you. Thanks!!

[@ChurchClown7]

Thanks!

[@johnswettenham4560]

Thanks Brian now I know what I've being doing wrong Cheers mate

[@MrAtfenn]

does anyone know what happened to brian havens? he seems to have disappeared. hopefully he is ok and just not posting. please come back to us if so!! you are the best teacher on youtube for the lathe imo

[@AlexanderTES]

As somebody wrote here, Brian was killed in a car accident some time ago. That's what I read from comments here in this channel.

[@SteveCashmoreWoodworks]

Hi Brian, fantastic videos on woodturning fundamentals, really useful and especially with the physics explanations (fulcrum, forces, etc)! Are you going to make any more videos because it looks like you haven't done any for 2 years now? cheers Steve (UK)

[@benjabens2058]

thanks brian,i wil grind one also,

[@myrmac2000]

Patternmakers used a skew for getting very accurate cuts on their patterns for decades. We had to work within 1/10 of a mm.

[@leksey7870]

Cutter takes the material well. I'll have to try this at work. Thank you. Like!

[@garymccoy2888]

Great

[@djs240]

Thank you for tutorial and education. Hope you keep doing videos. What is your recommended brand of scrapers? Thanks

[@jellyfish501]

the reason for the little amount of energy transferred to the tool is simple The tool is touching the wood with a very small part of the blade and this is because the blade is round :) I use the trick a lot if I don't want to put a lot of force on the work or blade I cut with just a very little part of the tool for example the tip of a skew

[@TheHawg5254]

Wonderful videos! So, am I correct that you start with a 40 degree bevel on top and bottom, then add a very small bevel on the bottom of 60 degrees to raise the burr? Thanks!!!

[@icespeckledhens]

Very good video. As much as I would like to get a perfect cut with a bowl gouge, on the outside of a bowl it does not work out that way. So, I have always made a finishing cut with a skew chisel, flat on the tool rest, as a scraper. The finish is pretty good and unlike, in the previous comment, I have never had a catch nor as a bowl exploded with this technique. I find it difficult to see the difference between the negative scraper and a skew except for the shape and I have rounded off the corners of my skew. However, I will get a negative scraper for the inside of the bowl

[@BHavensWoodworker]

A negative rake scraper is essentially a skew being used flat on the tool rest as a scraper. The only other difference for me is that I hone my skews so that they are scary sharp (which removes the burr), but leave the (desirable) burr on the negative rake scraper.

[@tonylashmar11]

Great video Brian , thanks. One question , some of the smaller scrapers you used looked to me like skews. When you were rounding over a bead and going in with the toe end I was thinking it would dig in if I tried it. What am I missing ?

[@gcfwood742]

Hey Brian, very informative video. Thank you for all your efforts! I was looking for the "ship curves" you used and am unable to find them. Very useful. Would you happen to recall where you got them more specifically so I can purchase some. Thank you.

[@donbomer5630]

Google is your friend 😄 Even Amazon has them...

[@keithhake7769]

I have just purchased a neg rake scraper from woodfast, they suggest tipping the right hand side up so the bottom left edge sits on the tool rest... what do you think. Cheers.

[@paullemire4107]

Hi Loved your video on negative rake scraping. Could you let me know the brand name that you were using in the video. Thanks Paul

[@tannertucker22]

Thank you. Do you think a NRS produces a superior cut to a properly deployed skew? Thank you.

[@bobblais6252]

Brian love your videos ,but to you have any books for new turners ??

[@jamescolbert8094]

Good show Brian. I am a newer turner. Can you purchase a negative scraper or do you make your own.

[@johnnyhjen9591]

Hey. i am new to your channel and i have just watched this video. I am from Denmark by the way. As a beginner i wonder if it would be a good idea to make a relief-grind on my reguler scraper before investing in more tools. Pardon my spelling :-)

[@jimbeaver27]

What's the difference between a negative rake scraper and a double bevel skew?

[@jeffdeluca1153]

What's the real difference between the double bevel scraper and a skew?

[@sapphodesigns2377]

Great explanations on negative rake.. Question . .I have a tormek T8 and I'm struggling to sharpen my negative rake. Do I need to use normal grinder first then the tormek?

[@billgiles3261]

Sappho Designs I think with a Tormek to sharpen you don’t get much of burr, but using a grindstone then the Tormek it reduces the desirable burred edge. Opposite to a conventional chisel where you definitely don’t want a burr.

[@lindareiman2345]

What do you recommend for thickness on a negative rake scraper?

[@willemkossen]

I really enjoyed these basics episodes. There is so much to learn. Maybe im missing something, but the negrake scrapers look a bit like skew chisels. Skews still scare me a lot, could i use them as negative rake scrapers by putting a little burr on one side?

[@BHavensWoodworker]

+Willem Kossen Spot on. You can use a Skew as a Negative Rake Scraper just by using it horizontally and flat on the tool rest.

[@robertkutz]

brian what do you sharpen the negative rake scraper to,thank you bob.

[@BHavensWoodworker]

+Robert Kutz Do you mean the bevel angle? The micro bevel angle at the tip is about 60 degrees (included angle). Anything from 40 to 60 degrees works, but I find the burr last a little longer at 60 degrees.

[@jesusocana3597]

Si pudieras ponerle subtítulos en español sería genial

[@Josef_R]

I was told in the forum, very adamantly, to never, ever use a skew on a bowl. You're using a skew on a bowl.

[@BHavensWoodworker]

+Josef Roesler That is very true if you are using a skew as a skew, that is riding the bevel and cutting, since the cutting edge will sink into the oncoming end grain fibers resulting in a nasty leverage catch. But used near horizontal, flat on the tool rest, as a negative rake scraper it is essentially a different tool.

[@Josef_R]

+Brian Havens No, I was using the skew as a scraper. Just stuck it in wrong on a cedar bowl and the whole thing exploded. Cedar delaminates like that. Anyway, caught all kinds of hell for using a skew on a bowl, but all I was doing was scraping with it.

[@Lugeix]

it looks like a skew

[@fakihchanellanak5595]

Hallo brian. Saya dari Indonesia. Saya ingin mahir seperti anda, bisakah anda mengajarkan saya secara langsung

[@gcbound]

"For mere mortals" = "not Stuart Batty" :)