NeoForged, What They Didn't Tell You || The Lore Behind Modded Minecraft Part 4

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DISCLAIMER:
This video is a summary of both my observations and people at the project deciding to speak out. Do NOT go into Neoforges Discord, Forums or other spaces to talk bad to them, i don't condone these actions and i never will. I would also like you to respect the privacy of the people that took the time to speak to me, as they have a serious fear of being witchhunted.
=Socials=
Twitter: / cygnus_mc
Discord: / discord
Second Channel: @LunarVods
Want access to the full interview and support my work?
Join the Patreon: / cygnusmc
Thumbnail by: @gutermaniac
Edited by: @KizGalaxy
Pebble art by: midnightmorpha.carrd.co/
=Summary=-
In the beginning of its history, Minecraft had Forge, the one big modloader. Now we have Forge, Neoforged, Fabric and its fork Quilt, how did this happen? Where did it go wrong? Who ate my sandwich? Lets dive into this first part of the history of Modded minecraft together!
#forge #minecraft #moddedminecraft
=Credit&Sources=
Mixins Documentation:
github.com/SpongePowered/Mixi...
Dowload NeoForged here:
neoforged.net
What's Happening - CPW:
neoforged.net/news/theproject/
Quilt Announcement:
quiltmc.org/en/blog/2021-04-1...
Strike demands:
gist.github.com/Shadows-of-Fi...
Github Issue on broken network code:
github.com/neoforged/NeoForge...
The good, The bad... and the fork:
neoforged.net/news/2023-retro...
Footage by ItsDrowned
/ itsdrowned
Music provided by Infraction No Copyright Music
Spotify: spoti.fi/3DzsedZ
If You've Read This Far Comment Pebble :)

[@Cygnus_MC]

Shout at me in discord: discord.gg/cygnusmc

[@sardarmoiz26]

😢😂😮😮😂😮😂😂

[@jason13gaming]

As a developer, I love having to rebuild the same mod 4 times with only slightly different wording :) :) /s

[@ShadowWolf2023-yp5zg]

Yeah, I never could quite understand why the newest version of Forge would break certain mods...

[@tinypixiebread]

Fun Fact: Minecraft is the only game that has countless of modding launchers, cracked launcher, modloaders, etc. It is insane how the community keep on running no matter what

[@jan_harald]

not the ONLY...but certainly one with the most of that stuff, yes, and certainly the most popular such one, not in a specific niche, but enjoyed by an extremely wide range of people, and having the most varied mod selection out there

[@hunnybon]

Neoforge seemed promising simply as a Forge without lex for me, but the fact they're gonna break compatibility causing more fracturing in the scene kind of sucks real hard.

[@hedwig7s]

Feels similar to the standards proliferation problem (which is: Situation: There are 3 competing standards. "3?! Ridiculous! We need to develop one universal standard that covers everyone's use cases" Situation: There are 4 competing standards)

[@profjb58]

Quilt didn't break compatibility and that project has more or less died entirely now. Neoforge is taking the opposite approach and it already seems to be working. The rate of improvements and optimisations has been incredible for developers and a lot of mods are already dropping Fabric support and moving to Neoforge so they can focus more on a single loader and a better experience.

[@cylian91]

@@hedwig7s *insert xkcd 927*

[@profjb58]

@@cylian91 Just gotta purge some standards :P. Tbf Quilt is a bit dead now so it's filled into the gap.

[@bogdanasaurus]

Breaking compatibility would probably be a rather slow task so complex mods wouldn't have to change a lot at once and rather a bit over a period of time. Also, breaking compatibility is necessary in order to "un-spaghettify" the code so it runs better.

[@flowerremoon]

I've heard different accounts of events which have been quite muddy so I'm hesitant to believe any story 100%, but your videos have been an interesting chronicle. It's also been a reminder that even actions taken with good reason can lose sight of what's important. The modding community has truly been something special over the years and I hope that each loader project continues without losing sight of making the best modding experience for both players and mod creators.

[@Cygnus_MC]

Im tired boss, i just want to play my silly block game. But hey its good that your sceptical! Keeps me on my toes

[@jan_harald]

yeah, what really sucks is "that guy must take the fall, and suffer" instead of real progress, being the case so often...way too often...the abrasive people are often the best coders, and not everything has to be "welcome all to sunshine plains, we accept everything from everyone"... instead of "that guy must take the fall", a much better approach would instead be to push to rework the system itself, make sure things actually work without needing a single person (or small handful of people) to approve everything, even if they're still the ideological leader... and there's no real reason for neoforged to hurry, anyway, as long as they have a copy of the code, license changes cannot be retroactive, without every contributor accepting that (not legally, at least), so even if they changed the project to be entirely proprietary and disallowed forking, you could still take the version of it from before that change, and fork from there

[@lukebytes5366]

It's hard to make universally good decisions for a community that's built on a volitile foundation.

[@LyingTube]

I was in the Forge discord when the split happened and it came completely out of nowhere for me since I'd made a point of only using it when I'd exhausted all other avenues of inquiry due to the general abrasiveness of devs there. Nice to have a little more context.

[@Cygnus_MC]

You're welcome

[@PlaYuri-cz6fr]

Unfortunately it seems that personal convictions and pride are heavily affecting the modding scene. Some devs seem to trying to be the ones who are right, not caring about the impact that their actions will cause on the average mod players. I'm not a dev but, as a player of modded Minecraft, I just wish a more contributive community that would put their personal intrigues aside to make a more universal and efficient modding scenario who benefits all.

[@foxoninetails_]

I have personally been on the receiving end of what gave Lex his terrible reputation, and it's the reason that I resolved years ago to never touch Forge again. Eventually, I left the Fabric community for similar reasons, though more so relating to the animosity between the Fabric and Forge teams than the Fabric team individually. From what I've seen of the project, I wouldn't touch Neoforged with a twenty-foot pole. It's not worth getting burned a third time when I can see the dumpster fire from a mile off for once, instead of only realizing it's hot once I'm already getting charred.

[@bugsisland3061]

Waiting for the day we can play mods regardless of version or loader. Getting back into modded MC is such pain in the ass juggling both factors

[@CERISTHEDEV]

Im gonna say something that can be very upsetting to people Bedrock addons are solid in this regard mainly if yiu are a marketplace dev like you dont need any loaders any extra api or library you just have to give your money to a small team and part of the money goes to a mega company but thats just a side thing

[@BirbIrl]

@@CERISTHEDEV pick your poison moment

[@CERISTHEDEV]

@@BirbIrl instead of choosing my go to is replaying terraria there is only 1 correct way of using mods and its because the devs made said way

[@BirbIrl]

@@CERISTHEDEV I actually do terraria modding with my friend and i gotta tell you - as great as tmodloader is, boy would it be nice to have a more low level loader like fabric. Terraria devs tho are super great and make it work tho, the moderation of the builds is pretty sweet - but just like fabric, updating and porting mods to new versions take MONTHS, but that's terraria being spaghetti code passion project. Better user experience, worse modding experience, I'd say from experience.

[@stanzacosmi]

@@CERISTHEDEV except the marketplace doesn't have good moderation like the aether being stolen and uploaded to it, and the inability to mix everything together like you can't have sonic in the angry birds dlc

[@kozmikhero6749]

After all these videos I see Fabric as the true future loader from here on out. It just works while being performant. Neoforge and especially quilt just seem to drama side branches that are a waste of time and make dealing with minecraft mods more difficult. I've made several modpacks and hosted several servers for those packs. I can tell you dealing with quilt mods that seem to be able to work with fabric completely but there's just an arbitrary line of code in there bricking it when running with the fabric api is frustrating...

[@Cygnus_MC]

Yeah that sounds very frustrating

[@gatoleyo7739]

Fabric relays on forge so if forge sinks fabric does too

[@Cygnus_MC]

@@gatoleyo7739 Fabric does not rely on forge in the slightest, i dont know where you got that from

[@metapuns9004]

Between 0.0.x versions breaking mods completely and there being about 4 different mod loaders and every mod needing a minimum of 1 core mod if you're lucky... it would be really nice if Mojang finally made true to their world and made proper mod support like every other game of its caliber. The community has done an amazing job getting as far as it did

[@Cygnus_MC]

Datapacks are their awnser

[@Austeja608]

@@Cygnus_MCdatapacks limited

[@Austeja608]

bedrock edition has modding support

[@itsentdev]

@@Cygnus_MC Datapacks are super janky and makes development really difficult

[@flamingscar5263]

If you mind me asking what other games of its caliber offer offical mod support? Most massive games either have no offical support or limited offical support often done better by the community I'd list some examples but I can't think of any games where modding ISNT a community driven thing Valve maybe? But in recent history Valve hasn't been as pro modding, the CS2 mapping tools are much more limited than CSGOs were and HL Alyxs mod tools are unfinished despite Valve promising they'd finish them 4 years ago The only games I can think of with standardized modding tools, is unreal and unity games, and even than it's less so standardized tools and more so that due to many games being on those engine the tools made for 1 unity game work for most unity games, same for unreal

[@thepigcat76]

The networking rewrite the neoforge team made, did not impact any mods unless their authors are willing to port the mod. The way you portray it, it just seems like the neoforge team ruined every modders new years day. Besides things like the registry, networking and capability rewrites, although a bit tedious to get into are really powerful and make it a lot easier for mod devs long term. Fabric even implemented the new Data system neoforge created.

[@Cygnus_MC]

Might be an issue with how i brought it! My main thing was to showcase how untested that feature was

[@profjb58]

@@Cygnus_MC It is a really good point but u can also look at the alternative approach which is to make a large PR, plan everything out and ultimately get nothing done, a.k.a Quilt. Fail fast is better than nothing. Granted they really need to lock PRs because it's a security risk if nothing else.

[@melontini]

If you mean the Data Attachment API, then it was originally submitted by Technici4n to Fabric API back in the -1.19.2- 1.18.2 update cycle.

[@ItsCoderDan]

as a developer the ONE thing i hope to god they do is fucking document the damn thing 😂 Forge is notorious for horrible documentation i hope now that they are re working everything they take the time to explain what they are actually doing 😭

[@leochangesnames]

Who the fuck self merges Oh my god That made me very angry

[@leochangesnames]

Also why not set up branch protection? Doesn't excuse him though

[@ThinkWithMods]

Modded Minecraft is quite the rabbit hole of history and knowledge surrounding it

[@pierre9061]

Forge,Fabric,NeoForge,Quilt. They be like the political compass. The first two more to the authoritarian side And the latter two closer to the anarchy XD

[@Cygnus_MC]

Lmao

[@gatoleyo7739]

Neoforge, quilt, forge, fabric. Long ago the minecraft community lived in harmony but everything changes when the forge loader attacked, only Notch the developer, master of all code could bring balance to the game but when the community needed him the most he dissapeared. Ten years have passed and Jeb along Agnes found a Kingbdogz, while he is an excellent modder he a has a lot to learn before he can save the community and I think he can save us

[@Remington510]

I call these "drama forks" - sprung up from ideological reasons and needs, with often honest wish to revolutionize and improve that in the end fail. In the end it's the software and the code that counts, the implementation of ideas that is the only thing that matters. That's why no one should let emotions and personal feelings limit themselves, especially if they do decide to split. Otherwise you end up with situations like "this guy's car had 4 wheels, we must distance ourselves so we gonna do with 5 or 3". Good luck though :P

[@clh2533]

No you're thinking of Quilt, Neoforge was made because lex wouldnt allow them to make changes to improve the software so now without him blocking everything they are free to modernize it so it will be even better than fabric and old forge

[@hitler69]

@@clh2533 neoforge is purely political. have you even watched the video?

[@Speiger]

Huh, half of these things i watched actually live happening. Tech self merging and getting called out by the team members. Neoforge basically breaking the MP support and a few other small things. But I didn't expect all of that. Thank you for showing things. Edit: that 1 PR I made, was basically updating a broken link on their readme.... Edit 2: About techs merging his own commits. The whole thing he got called out for was actually that he merged commits from other reviewers without talking to them or giving them time to react. In a sense: OH my reviewer isn't responding fast enough, like minutes, lets ping tech and he will merge it.

[@ShadowWolf2023-yp5zg]

The old forge dev team weren't friendly enough to others asking very good questions and trying to do mod troubleshooting.

[@GrimmSmile]

I use to only be into Forge way back because I had the mindset that it was king compared to Fabric, which went on for a while and I had this weird disdain for fabric even tho I didn't actually know much about it. Until I eventually decided to try Fabric out one day. What I realized was that, Yeah, it had fewer mods... (at the time) but the performance is nearly unmatched. Especially with the performance mods that were developed for it like Sodium, Lithium, and Phosphor. Or even mods like Starlight and the more destructive performance mod known as Methane, which is just crazy cool to see! I even have a 1.20.1 modpack currently with 236 mods and a plethora of performance mods that when combined together give me a constant steady 140FPS even with heavy terrain/structure mods and shaders enabled. (I have it capped to 140FPS btw) Also there is more and more high quality mods coming out on fabric nowadays and I am just SOLD on it at this point. I do still switch to forge every now and again though and I'm not going disregard it, nor say it's bad to use. I like both of them and I acknowledge what both offer and the reasons that developers are split between them but for right now Fabric is my go to. As for the other 2 modloaders, I don't see much reason to try them out at this time until the teams of each of them make better decisions and have a clear direction for those modloaders. Else I fear they will sadly fade in the background over time... Edit: This comment is more so my thoughts to an extent after watching the whole playlist of The history of modded minecraft.

[@Cygnus_MC]

As a creator its cool to see someone develop their opinion because of a series i did, or at least see them go through their thought process. Thank you so much for this comment

[@GrimmSmile]

@@Cygnus_MC No problem!

[@NemeczeK101]

If the community (or perhaps the modders in particular to not lump everyone in this) cannot come to agreements and keep making new modloaders all the time, messing up the modding ecosystem constantly, then I think Mojang should step in actually do something for Java and make a modloader themselves. It's a shame what the modern Minecraft modding scene is coming to.

[@Cygnus_MC]

I believe mojang wants to make datapacks more powerfull over the comming few updates, but we will see

[@Drew19822002]

Great videos man. I hope you will get to 1 Million subs. All I have to say to every Mod loader, Mod Dev, Mod author, Minecraft Dev, and CEOs is this. I just want to play Minecraft with the mods I enjoy. If that is too much to ask for, then maybe Minecraft was never Meant to be, and there is another game out there that can give me that. Good luck to all.

[@jonnyb2956]

I feel like open source needs somewhat aggressive leaders with a strict vision, willing to enforce it, otherwise you lose focus and control over the direction of the project. Linus Torvalds is also known to be strict with what to accept and the tone of his feedback, but he steers the linux kernel pretty well. Not everyone likes him, but most people respect him. Lex seems to have overstepped massively, but it sounds like he is willing to change his way and learn from this. Maybe he can regain some respect and trust from the maintainers. You don't have to be liked by everyone, as long as the project does not suffer from it. neoforged on the other hand sounds terrible, and I fear they have no real leader. They have some techies, who want to get shit done without friction. But I'm not sure they really have a long term strategy and the leadership to steer the project accorging to the strategy, if a few devs go completely haywire, merging their own changes left and right. At some point, they have to establish and enforce rules, before they accumulate tech debt they can't pay off. And who knows if the devs run away, once these rules are enforced.

[@gabrielmourao2854]

And frankly, although there may have been some valid complaints on that strike message, the moment they asked Lex to step away for 4 months to "work his personal skills" i already saw the lack of professionalism they showed. Instead of caring for the project, it feels like they just wanted to put Lex down because of their pride

[@Martomeen]

Modding communities have always had the undertone of drama and bickering. And it never lead to anything good. I'm not saying that NeoForge is a bad thing, but all of this could've been avoided through the sheer ability of acting as an adult. One could only hope that mod loaders are going to converge back together in the future. Not for anyone else but the modders themselves. Players can afford to not play all of the mods together all of the time, but having to make your mod for more than one mod loader or denying a part the community the joy of playing your work can never feel good. If they don't, oh well, we make do.

[@tr7zw]

As a dev who supports Fabric(as main loader), NeoForge and Forge, I just really hope Forge now goes away. Before NeoForge was a thing, I legit couldn't ask for help with some stuff, because since I code for Fabric mainly with Mixins, Lex would ban you for mentioning Fabric or Mixins. Having an issue with something not working? Too bad. Older mc version? Too bad. Yes, the split sucks in the short term, but the hope is that long-term Forge just fades away. Also Forge is no stranger of breaking mods for no reason other than cosmetics. It's an issue with Forges/NeoForges "beta" phase they are in for the weeks after a new mc version releases.

[@Paint_Ninja-oo8nc]

Forge team member here - I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience, however I believe you have severely outdated information. Even years before the split (MC 1.14 days), Forge has supported older versions, mixins were also fine under the condition you posted in the right channel (as Mumfrey, the author of Mixin, only looks there). On the new Forge discord server, we expanded this to allow getting help for any MC version and asking for mixin help in any mod dev support channel.

[@profjb58]

​@@Paint_Ninja-oo8nc Neoforge is actively talking with Mumfrey to try and improve Mixins going forward and hopefully get around some of the limitations Fabric has instead of trying to write an entirely new standard like Quilt did. That seems like progress. Not just passively "allowing" them to be used

[@Paint_Ninja-oo8nc]

@@profjb58 In case you haven't noticed, I'm also part of the NeoForged team ;) I'm well aware of what's going on at both sides. Forge isn't "just passively allowing them to be used", Forge is actively interested in supporting the upcoming Mixin version and Lex has offered a solution that would allow it to work on older MC versions without breaking changes, details of this can be found on the new Forge discord as of course, all Forge dev is fully public and transparent.

[@profjb58]

@@Paint_Ninja-oo8nc You would be the perfect person to interview haha. From what I see Lex doesn't want to accept the new changes made by Mumfrey as indicated by "I have no intention of using Fabrics fork of Mixin". I know this doesn't necessarily mean the latest version of Mixins in general but it's a shame because even on it's own Mixins lacks a lot and Mixin Extras is now included by default into Neoforge as well. Lex again in his stubbornness has refused to accept that these "utilities" are useful and should be external instead which just isn't true on any level. Peeps have asked for Mixin Extras to be included by default for quite a while already. I don't see it as the best way forward at all and it feels like another case of Lex making the final decision on behalf of others. I'd like to know if u had any input or if this was purely his decision though. I'd like to hope it was a group decision.

[@Paint_Ninja-oo8nc]

​@@profjb58 I encourage you to properly do your research before posting more comments. Fabric Mixin is not developed by Mumfrey/not official Mixin and NeoForged also has no intention of using it. Lex has also never claimed MixinExtras should be external and nobody in the new Forge discord has asked for it to be included. Only thing Lex has said related to MixinExtras was helping fix an issue with it on Forge. As I've said before, all dev is public and fully transparent, you don't need to ask me on KZbin comments to find out for yourself. Please stop assuming the worst in people and see for yourself instead.

[@teezy1234]

No I don’t need another split fabric and forge is already enough

[@Daniel_VolumeDown]

I don't know how this forge discord looked like, but to me rebranding of discord from forge to neoforge just because cpw had the power to do it (because it was his) seems strange. I think that they should have created new discord because neoforged is new project. Especially if this forge discord server was actively used to talk about development of forge (I don't know if that was the case but from what yous say it seems like that was the case). Also now, whole history of what was said about forge is now on neoforged discord (If I understand correctly). If cpw didn't wanted to continue maintaining forge server (which I think is obvious) then either he should give admin rights to someone else (and this is kinda also understandable If he wouldn't want to) or mark this discord as old, maybe post some explanation and link to new server and eventually also block others from sending messages (so basically "close" server without actually deleting it).

[@Daniel_VolumeDown]

I now looked at neoforged website and in last blogpost they say "We apologise for the sudden, disorganized and confusing rebranding of the Discord server. For reasons not worth going into (nor relevant in this post), we had to go public months before we anticipated, so we were caught off guard. It was a mess, and if we could turn back time and do it better, we would.". I don't know if that means that they wouldn't rebrand discord server or just that they would do it in cleaner way though. Either way I think that maybe they still can make new discord server if they would want to (I think they would not). It exists "only" for half a year. It would create new mess but in long term in my opinion it maybe could make things better.

[@Cygnus_MC]

They panicked when lex joined, and lex joined cuz someone dm'd him a direct link

[@theolimpiaking4896]

what eventually happen too is that if they push to much broken stuff into the neoforge project, they will have to come back later and try to fix it and they will not be able to fix it if they still having the same leadership or the mod loader will become soo broken that nobody will use it any longer and the project will die

[@RaziMemeGod]

I really think they should have preview builds if they wanna do anything that could break the loader.

[@russianyoutube]

I think a lot of people here, in the comments misunderstand what forge is. I've seen comments saying that (neo)forge is obsolete because of fabric and similar stuff, but fabric brings back an issue that was pretty major in modding and fixed by forge. Back when jarmodding was still a common thing, it was very hard to combine mods because some mods might modify the same class in the game in different ways, breaking each other. Forge was an API that would change all the things for the people, to make development easier and also allow for mod compat. That's what forge achieved, but times changed, you know the deal. Ofc, fabric has an API as a seperate mod, but that does break a few things. In forge, if you mixin into a place, you can change forges and minecrafts code directly (well, you should never modify forges code, as that will for sure break other mods) and in the same place, while with the fabric api that's just not quite doable. You'd most likely end up mixining both mc and the fabric api, which you never want to do. In fabric, a lot is achieved through mixins, what forge does by itself. That's fine until multiple mods mixin the same thing, breaking each other. It's the reason why you don't see big fabric packs very often: There can be 4 mods with 4 different libraries that do the same thing and break each other. I'm not saying fabric is bad and forge is good, but both have their down and upsides. Forge maintains good mod compat, while fabric achieves great performance and is lightweight by itself.

[@SupersuMC]

"Surely you don't want Lex to come back?"

[@Cygnus_MC]

Is this a thread? Lol

[@KiraraVS]

i've seen the evidence against lex and the only thing i can say is that lex seems to be just a good dev tired of having to deal with bad contributions and second guessing from people who barely knows how to code. yes his language choice might seem harsh in current year, but if you ignore the sarcasm and belittlement all of his arguments are solid. specially his crusade against coremods is completely correct from a technical point of view. are his interpersonal skills a little lacking? yes should he have to improve them? no, he's just a dude carrying the quality of more than half of the modding community on his shoulders for free, he shouldn't have to do anything. As long as microsoft doesn't make an official api to use mods on java he's the man in charge of allowing us to enjoy the most popular game in history in the way we want, and as such i don't care if he's 'abrasive' or whatever.

[@cylian91]

most of the issue could be fix by making modloader only modloader and not full api. a mod loader should only load mods like fabric does, by default fabric only have a API for making your mods load and if you need an api you can install fabric API (or even part of it with jar in jar feature).

[@alvinbontuyan8083]

Yes! Modular, small components instead of monolithic structures. This is the way

[@TheKodeToad]

each system has its advantages and disadvantages. wouldn't you be creating something very similar to fabric if you went for this very lightweight structure?

[@Respectable_Username]

There's a very good reason (Neo)Forge has a bigger API! A lot of the bigger, more complex mods, especially for technical gameplay, only work so well together because Forge provided a standardised API for them all to use. So the fluid from Mod A can be pumped through pipes from Mod B into a machine from Mod C. This standardisation in the modloader itself prevents the mod community within itself fracturing between a larger, unenforced series of standards. Yes that does add a lot more stuff to the modloader, but you need to remember that the goals of Fabric and (Neo)Forge are fundamentally different, and neither is inherently better than the other. They're simply optimising for different problems.

[@seannewell397]

@ 9:55 you describing being a junior. Are the neoforge devs seasoned seniors with their own mods? Or a bunch of juniors now set loose, and about to become seniors through fire? Repeated self merges are a smell - idk about "kick you out" - consider founding engineer @ a start up (again, staff level or senior skill level) - but yeah, it's trivially easy to add CI test requirements and single code approval requirements _for all members_ without exception. We'll see how it develops! Maybe merging is fast but releasing is hard?

[@Paint_Ninja-oo8nc]

Releases are automated based on commits both at Forge and NeoForged. They can be cancelled, but you only have minutes after a merge.

[@Timongcraft]

The new State is a State and called Configuration State the Login State was there before. But stilla a very cool video!

[@Adrian-ov6tr]

Who the hell did you talk to that says that NeoForge has nothing to offer over LexForge? The capability system alone is so much of an improvement over the forge one on 1.20.4 that it alone is better to use for mods like tech mods. Neoforge is also the only platform still actively receiving new feature releases. This feels like it was written a few months ago, this information is sorely outdated now, your information seems to constantly talk about NeoForge's state on 1.20.2. We're on 1.20.4 now, the loader is very different now, with alot of improvements. Also idk where this networking stuff is coming from, NeoForge's new networking system works much better than LexForge's current implementation. This point also contradicts your point about there being no evidence that NeoForge and Fabric are working together *because the networking system was written in part by Modmuss, the maintainer of Fabric*

[@Cygnus_MC]

I think ur missing the point here. 1) Ive talked to about 10 developers, ones ive already talked to before for other videos, and others ive been talking to behind the scenes. Mostly they said they dont know what they would support Neoforged while its still in beta as it requires constant rewrites 2) The "networking stuff" comes from the person inside neofroged themselves telling me Orion's code was not up to the task, there is also an github issue about that issue in the sources. The point of that is to show there was very little oversight into what code is being accepted, same with Tech's selfmerges. 3) You got a source for that? Or are u basing that upon the fact Modmuss as an individual helped write some code?

[@trysteroelesuecaverne]

@@Cygnus_MC No one is MEANT to support neoforge in 1.20.4, it's purely a technical test. Some modders are, to get ahead of their work. Everything within Neoforge is being prepared for 1.21 at the earliest, which will come, maybe, around May this year. THEN it will take time (months) for mods getting ported.

[@Cygnus_MC]

@@trysteroelesuecaverne if their mismanagement (that has been reported by more people then just me) resolves itself, then sure.

[@seannewell397]

"why the secrecy" sometimes you just gotta plan and cook things. However, if they want to become this open & transparent community and OSS project, there are many software projects that use RFCs or proposals (python PEPs) or repos (internet working groups). It's been quite a while since they released, whether surprised or not, they have to start forming governance and showing us they mean business when it comes to being transparent. Quilt is a stand out in this regard I think, it seems they care more about getting governance/coc/guidelands out first from my quick glance. Let's see where they are in 6 months! I'm quite optimistic still atm, feels like great things are coming.

[@Cygnus_MC]

Thanks for the feedback, seems like u got a lot of experience in the tech world if i read ur other comments, always nice to have some technical people comment!

[@AbrahamMorales]

I would love to see you create a Sinytra Connector video as a follow up on this series once you're done with reviewing everything regarding the mod loaders. It has been very interesting to take a look into the complex relations of the modding community and history. I appreciate your efforts to deep dive us into this topic. I just kinda feel bad for the people involved, as everyone seem to be well intentioned with their projects, but I guess chaos is unavoidable sometimes and sadly some people end up being perceived as the heroes or villains of the story.

[@Cygnus_MC]

Interviewing the Sintraya guys does sound cool

[@profjb58]

@@Cygnus_MC Sorry to jump in again haha, i'd definitely interview Fabric devs as well if u do that. I love Sinytra for basic mods I know can use it without fault but it doesn't work with a lot of prominent Fabric mods and can cause headaches for Fabric developers who get issue reports from Forge clients / servers.

[@iplayminecraft2248]

I didn't know about all this stuff, so neoforge now seems even more annoying to me, especially making neo-forge mods not work in forge/vice versa. at least quilt still runs fabric mods

[@gavindominico9595]

Man, after watching this I just don’t know what to think of the modding scene anymore, it’s such a confusing mess with different mod loaders having done both good and bad things, I don’t even know what mod loader to use anymore, at least curse forge lets you download mods that work for the 4 different mod loaders, I just hope things don’t fracture any further

[@AlexUnknown37]

Good video. In the end we just wants best. Love fabric but you miss out on a lot of good mods, love forge but you miss out on not only performance but cool new modders and mods.

[@TheOoberTooberJr]

At this point, it would be best if Mojang made their own mod loader for us to use. Then there'd be no problem with forked loaders and incompatibilities all the time.

[@7lllll]

ugh i wish i could just use neoforge and forget about it, too bad now i won't know which to use for at least a year

[@blockypenguin]

i mean you mentioned lex being not a great guy to deal with, and i agree from personal experience on the forums as a newbie forge dev, and the general forge community followed his example. so no, i can't say i particularly like the guy, and this toxicity is exactly why i pivoted to fabric for modding, but it does sound like there is something else going on within neoforged here....

[@Cygnus_MC]

Thats kinda why i made this video, its easy blaming one guy for everything while multiple factors where playing a role

[@funbox4896]

I think its time for an official mod API from Mojang

[@Cygnus_MC]

I think we got that in the form of Datapacks, as thats basically the same thing

[@seannewell397]

@ 11:50 about how only a few contributors right now are leading in code contributions (commits? prs merged? what is this metric) is just OSS - happens almost everywhere. Linux is the outlier, except if you break it down per module- then usually 1-2 people are the obvious standouts. Oh and curl - one guy.

[@Helveteshit]

Still feel like Lex should work on his social skills if he tells people off for simple questions. In fact, sounds like he is on the verge of being sued if he doesn't change his attitude.

[@pixels_per_minute]

To me, it seems like Fabric and good old Data Packs are currently the most reliable methods of loading mods. Forge is getting slower, and development on it seems rocky. NeoForge is a little too new, and I doubt most mods support it to the same degree as the other loaders. And Quilt just exists for some reason. Having all these loaders makes it so much harder to mod the game...

[@lennyface6828]

All of this Forge drama sure is good advertising for Fabric

[@Cygnus_MC]

Lmao

[@fachriecaf]

Thanks for the new DnD lore

[@Cygnus_MC]

What does he mean by this

[@fachriecaf]

@@Cygnus_MC oh, hahaha I thought u were referencing a certain dnd lore channel bcs of the title style, almost all of the title of the video in that channel formated "what they didn't tell you about (.....) || DnD lore" As if it's the channel catch phrases, and even funnier I've been marathoning one of his playlist right now, so when I see ur continuation video titled the same style I just couldn't help but comment that 🤣

[@Cygnus_MC]

@@fachriecaf fait enough hahahahah

[@Nord_Act]

About that drama post from Quilt regarding Forge. To my knowledge, "The Statement" (that was the title) was deleted for reasons being very misleading regarding the whole situation. Post itself obv was very much not in favor of Forge team, labeling with a lot of kinds of -ist words its team members, especially Curle and Lex. According to what I heard, Curle was very much gaslit by Quilt representatives into saying some stuff that could be taken out of context in a very negative way. And Lex... he just was drunk during events described in that post. Idk how much true what I described above, because I heard this from messages of a person not directly involved into this, but I'm for sure remember this "statement" being very misleading regarding current (current at that moment) the situation within Forge itself

[@Cygnus_MC]

As far as i know most of what you said is true, its still funny they deleted it so fast

[@Nord_Act]

@@Cygnus_MC I remember it being up for at least a month, so wouldn't say it was fast. Or maybe I just lost a track of time lol

[@TheMisterEpic]

Oh for the love of god, another mod loader, wish we could just go back to when everyone used forge, such a better time

[@Cygnus_MC]

HOLY FUCK MOM GET THE FUCKING CAMERA!!! No in al seriousness it annoys me that its made because they didnt like a person

[@ShadowWolf2023-yp5zg]

"Abrasive and aggressive" Seems like that is putting it mildly.

[@nerdcuddles7731]

I hope Neoforge mods stay compatible with Forge loader tbh

[@zuimelanieforno4654]

Hi. I don't get the Terms "Registry" and "Networking". Can You be more precise on that? And what has that to do with the Java Codebase? Java uses a virtual machine, and Minecraft has a plugin folder. For what then is the plugin loader any good, if it has to have a "Registry"? thx in advance greetings from Hamburg, Germany

[@Cygnus_MC]

Hi, Forge uses a number of systems in order to function, Including its Networking code (the code interacting between the server and the client) and its Registry (basicaly a database of all known states, blocks etc). These changes are to the Forge Project Codebase, not the java one, and the Forge project is one of the ways Minecraft Mods cant hook into the minecraft game to play, hence why it needs these systems to function

[@zuimelanieforno4654]

Nice @@Cygnus_MC. Now I got it, as a Developer by Profession and beginner in JAVA and also a Minecraft Noob. I can install it and run it, but I have never been at the End, so basically a Noob. OK, I got it wrong, but now it makes sense. So to recap for my self, the Server is the "World", so the Client "the Game" sends Interactions over the Network. These are like Function-Calls over some Network (like REST on the Web as an example). So now the Registry is the State-Storage (Like a Database, but with some "Umpf", I guess). And the Forge and Quilt and the others are basically a Middleware for the Plugin API? Thank You for clarifying this to an old gamer. 😃

[@AaronMartinez004]

Is it really that hard to have one mod loader feel like minecraft is one of the only games that has this problem where disagreements snow ball to devs having to remake their mod 4 times

[@Damian-cilr1]

Yep,forge used to be the only (large) modloader,now there is 4. (fabric,forge,quilt,neoforged) 1 isn't very popular (quilt) fabric is good and its possible to make it work on old versions (b1.7.3)

[@etilworg]

im here to know what type of drama propels neoforge. 👍

[@Cygnus_MC]

I wouldnt say propells, more created

[@silvialuzmia]

So they takeover official forge discord and rename it? why do that tho?

[@Cygnus_MC]

Good question

[@xXXEnderCraftXXx]

I think Fabric and Quilt are the ones we have to count on.

[@plastered_crab]

Probably just Fabric lol

[@massiveclownfish]

Quilt is a running joke, we count on Fabric on this one

[@FirstMegaGame4]

​@@massiveclownfish it's not Please look at Quilt's stuff before saying that kind of things

[@Cygnus_MC]

What happened here

[@xXXEnderCraftXXx]

@@plastered_crab Well you got a point.

[@_shadow_1]

Anyone know why they changed the anvil icon to the new one despite it still having "forge" in the name?

[@CERISTHEDEV]

I think its to be less confusing with the original forge mod loader and the curseforge because less savy people tend to get confused with the thing

[@_shadow_1]

@CERISTHEDEV The new icon is also kind of random because it doesn't have anything to do with the name of the launcher. It's also very generic looking. Them using something like a stylized "NF" with a hammer would have made more sense.

[@Cygnus_MC]

They had a public chat about it in their discord, the forge logo was removed because the similarity to forge itself

[@Bloxxify1]

I love how all this is happening even though nobody gives a fuck about it, people at Neoforge arnet the good guys. just let us use our original modloaders, Forge and Fabric is all we need. Separate art from the artist mein mann

[@deblijevos241]

keep up with the good work and with the grind!

[@seannewell397]

@13:20 for "lex cares" or w.e - idk, look @ linus torvalds. It is _not_ a good thing we let people be assholes. They need to grow the hell up and face consequences for treating people like shit. People are more important than code and Relationships far more valuable than any project. Empowered, trusting teams deliver 10 - 100x the value more reliably than any lone ranger.

[@thinksealbootjackmcgee]

good video

[@misterhydra7285]

Not sure why the neoforge team want to drop compatability with forge, I think the last thing anyone wants is further fracturing of the modding scene

[@1d10tcannotmakeusername]

Ideologues do not care about the integrity of a field if they do not control it, they will keep balkanizing it until there is nothing left. One wonders if it's partially a conspiracy by Microsoft.

[@Adrian-ov6tr]

Because there's no good way to improve forge without breaking some of the terrible systems Forge has, like Capabilities

[@bogdanasaurus]

To add onto this, I'm pretty sure that untangling the code of Forge after its many many years of updates to Minecraft on its own would benefit the NeoForge loader by making it easier for people to make contributions to the loader and overall performance.@@Adrian-ov6tr

[@Kaesar1984]

another future set of awesome mods that will work with just one mod loader huh? smh

[@profjb58]

You really need to look at these things more objectively @Cygnus_MC the MC modding community is already struggling and this video just adds fuel to the fire. There are a lot of reasons why NeoForge split and this idea to fork has been in the midst for ages ever since it was apparent how bad Lex was around other members and how stubborn he was around any kind of change for the better. Those allegations u couldn't find also play a big part. I can't seem to link them here. Links seem to be blocked entirely, but they are easy to find on the official forge blog. Remember also that Mod Developers have been asking for improvements to Forge, especially in terms of performance for a VERY long time. Neoforge is taking a risky approach of changing everything in one go to try and improve things but it's not necessarily a good or bad take, it's just different. U can't expect large refactors of code to go smoothly and as time goes by Neoforge should become more stable. The unification between Fabric and Neoforge isn't something Tech specifically wants to push. This is something everyone wants and Lex basically refused. For some systems such as tag unification it makes a lot of sense. Most of the problems Quilt has had revolve around slow PRs and not being able to agree on anything at all so some members of Neoforge taking the alternate approach makes sense in the early days to just get things through. Tech did take it 2 to the extreme however. Unfortunately u have to also consider that since this person is anonymous it could literally be anyone, including Lex himself. Don't forget as well there are plenty of people who want this project to fail because it's "yet another loader" or standard for people to use. A lot of peeps have a loyalty to Forge regardless of there reason. If it is an internal member on Neoforge at least Neoforge seems to allow open discussion about these kind of things. What i'm saying is this is an incredible oversimplification and u need to ask both sides to get to any kind of useful conclusion. U can't accept advice from an "anonymous" whistleblower and take it as fact.

[@Cygnus_MC]

I agree that there already is a lot of fuel on the fire, but the goal of a project shouldnt be to kill another. Objectively they mislead a large group of people that now think neoforged is forge. My interest is to clear up misinfo, and i think ive done that here. However i agree with you that there already is a lot of negativity in the space, and i hope this is my only video i have to make like this

[@profjb58]

​@@Cygnus_MC The modding community desperately need a GOOD standard that they can rely on, with performance, simplicity similar to Fabric. The Networking update looks promising as a developer and is much more familiar to me coming from Fabric put it that way. Remember as well the name is no mistake, It is a fork so it will have a LOT of similarities even if stuff like the Networking, Registry changes. Quilt as a project has really died as of recent so it also feels appropriate for another loader to take over and try to actually unite the modding community under one standard. You can see this happening already with mods like Gregtech CEU modern dropping Fabric support.

[@Paint_Ninja-oo8nc]

​@@profjb58 Forge team member here - Lex has publicly stated in the new Forge discord server the polar opposite of what you claim - Lex has no plans to leave Forge.

[@profjb58]

@@Paint_Ninja-oo8nc I got the info from the same Discord but i'll double check. EDIT: Yep you're right. Edited it. Thx for the info

[@Paint_Ninja-oo8nc]

@@profjb58 ​Additionally, I strongly disagree that Lex could be the anonymous inside source, as that would require Lex still being a part of the NeoForged team long after post-split to be able to view the internal/private channels... he's not even in the old Forge (now NeoForged) Discord server anymore. Lex also isn't against interop with Fabric, which again you can find details backing this up in the Discord...

[@darknetworld]

I guess it hard to build the src server with the team poor management skills. As well social person need to be in charge or work together. Multitask is not easy job.

[@sacripan4425]

As a long date forge fan:This look veery promising

[@Henrix1998]

LexManos is basically Linux Torvalds

[@Cygnus_MC]

Thats one hell of a comparison

[@Toksyuryel]

@@Cygnus_MC It's accurate though. Both are assholes who Get Shit Done.

[@flamingscar5263]

Wouldn't say so, Linus made an open source kernel that anyone, ANYONE, can fork and contribute to Lex made a semi open source mod loader where he still owns multiple parts of the code and only people he chooses to can contribute With the Linux kernel if you have an idea that could revelation it, you fork the kernel, add it, than release your version, and when people see your good idea, it'll get added to the mainline kernel With forge that's not possible, Lex controls it fully, if you see something you want improved sure you can fork it and make the improvements, but than it's up to Lex to add them, if he denies you, that's it, it won't get added This really is a shitty comparison, on 1 hand you have a person who revolutionized the Unix world and made a project anyone can freely edit and use On the other hand you have someone who revolutionized minecract modding and kept that to himself Honestly if Lex did go the Linuz route we would have avoided this entire situation as if Lex became a bad leader anyone, anyone at all, could replace him by forking forge and taking control of it themselves

[@Toksyuryel]

@@flamingscar5263 "anyone at all, could replace him by forking forge and taking control of it" that is literally what neoforged is

[@flamingscar5263]

@@Toksyuryel but neoforge isn't ANYONE they are a small group Lex chose to have that right, if Lex didn't grant them acsses to development of forge, they couldn't fork it That's the difference between the Linux kernel, ANYONE can fork the Linux kernel, anyone at all You, me, your grandma, your uncle, ANYONE has the ability to fork, edit, modify, release the Linux kernel Not just whoever Linus Torvalds says can, ANYONE can

[@lestegii]

Velocity support for Forge 1.13+ has been requested for a very long time now. Forge has shown no interest in "fixing"* it on their side. Adding support for it now that they have to deliver again because of the split and than saying "look they care for network owners" seems like a far strech. From what I heard this isn't the only thing which suddenly got "better" after the split. *fixed might not be the best word for that, as some of the pull requests included a bandaid fix

[@darksonic3005]

This came as a bit of a surprise at this point, but I'm still going to give my thoughts. Was it wrong to blame everything on Lex? Yes, however I still think he played a huge role in it not being the only cause. NeoForged was surely a bit rushed and even have controversial reasons to exist, but I still think they want the best for modders and not drama. Their premises are pretty good, I would give them time to organize well and actually show their potential. Though I admit it was a little sad seeing it born from such events. Compatibility is still a big issue, though everyone is working towards it, it is not fully reachable anyways. We can just accept that, or try a few solutions hoping that another modloader doesn't come out.

[@Cygnus_MC]

If Neoforged is actually about making a better loader and not a project made to spite Lex, then yes it has a big future and i support it. However they have exhibited some very odd behavior i outlined in this video to some extent

[@Wonky2]

Pebble :)

[@danknil7097]

Thanks for the video!

[@Cygnus_MC]

Thanks for the comment!

[@gargamel3478]

Forge forever!

[@Cygnus_MC]

Is that a smurfs pfp

[@gargamel3478]

@@Cygnus_MC I hate the smurfs.

[@Cygnus_MC]

@@gargamel3478 based

[@samuelhulme8347]

Proxy servers like Velocity haven’t supported forge for years. Velocity only supports up to 1.12.x, unless you use a plugin like Ambassador.

[@Cygnus_MC]

No its the other way around

[@samuelhulme8347]

@@Cygnus_MC what’s the other way around? The only way I’ve got 1.20.1 forge to work properly on my server is to use Ambassador. This is because modern forge does not support the client reset packet. Why would Ambassador exist if there were no problems? Without Ambassador a forge client can connect to a server behind velocity but when the client tries to connect to another server the next server won’t know the client is forge because Velocity does not perform the forge handshake for every server connection, so the forge client will have an error in the chat saying that they need forge installed.

[@Cygnus_MC]

@@samuelhulme8347 lex went out of his way to implement a way for velocity to work with modded clients

[@samuelhulme8347]

@@Cygnus_MC but then why would Ambassador exist?

[@Cygnus_MC]

@@samuelhulme8347 well look at the version of Ambassador? Was it before 1.20.2? Cuz these changes to forge are after the login stage was introduced. Meaning the mod could've exist for a time where there was no support

[@Jonathing]

we need to revert to jarmodding on god

[@Cygnus_MC]

Ur getting shot with a bow in minecraft

[@ethanbuttazzi2602]

so basically, lex is can asshole, but does its job well, and neoforge exists solely out of spite for lex and not for any good tecnical purpose...?

[@Cygnus_MC]

That's essentially why it was created. Im assured 1.20.5 will be better but we have to see about that

[@hitler69]

yep. there is currenyly 0 (ZERO) benefit neoforge brings over forge.

[@flamingscar5263]

My main issue with your take is that your comparing running a hobby project to real work The entire point of open source projects is that they ARE NOT a job, you dont have to worry about managers and work place culture and all the grabage of a job, this is the main reason neoforged exsits, Lex treated developing for forge as if you were his employee, he acted like he was the boss, and ask anyone in the FOSS (free and open source) world, thats not how it works, FOSS projects are lead by a team of hobbiets who run it how ever the hell they feel like Yea self merging is weird, but not kicking them off the project isnt "wrong" there is no right or wrong way to do FOSS, thats the entire point of FOSS, its that every project is different, run differently, treated differently, the lack of standards is the point of FOSS, FOSS is all about freedom of expression through code, this was a feedom Lex took away from anyone other than who he selected, im not here to say thats wrong, again theres no wrong way to FOSS, but its obvious thats not what people wanted, therefore a new project gets made Tbis is how FOSS always goes, there will be 1 thing until someone wants that thing different and makes a different thing to replace the other thing than someone else makes something different from both things and so on and so forth Ill use the world of the Linux desktop as an example, with Linux desktops you dont have just 1 option of desktop environment (a desktop environment being the core of how the OS looks) you have near infinite options Do all these options work smoothly together? Absolutely not Do all these options cause confusion to anyone trying Linux for the first time? You bet your ass it does Do all these options cause arguments between which is the best? Oh all the god damn time So why have all these options? Freedom, its the meaning of free and open source, the free there doesnt just mean of no financial cost, it means your free to do it how you want to, this freedom extends to the devs, any dev in the FOSS world loves FOSS because they can truly feel free, no managers demanding you to do things in a way that is overcomplicted, its your freedom to develop the project however you please

[@wastucar8127]

Frankly I think you may have gotten a bit lost in the sauce at the end chief. I’d probably feel angry akin to you if it weren’t for the near universal opposition to Lex and this feels a bit too much like a Lex puff piece. Sure there may be some who believe “better the devil that you know” but given the extent of the opposition I think it’s good that there’s a new loader to boot him out of the scene. If he’s really that toxic we need a change. And IMO you may want to take a step back and take a look at the whole picture again, I’ve appreciated the past four videos but after focusing so deeply on one story for so long it’s easy to develop some clouding perspectives in my experience. Just my two cents.

[@Cygnus_MC]

Admittedly the ending is more my opinion then straight facts (the "if the project is trying to be a better loader bla bla) however you are right about that. As for it beeing a Lex Puff piece, so many videos are already saying hes bad and an asshole (including 2 of mine) i thought id aproach this as lex beeing human. Altho i do appreciate you not just taking what i say at face value, thanks for your feedback!

[@wastucar8127]

​ @Cygnus_MC Now that you say it like that I totally see your point, although I would have appreciated you stating such in the video. I see a lot of journalists, and just normal people, nowadays saying that they're "playing the devils advocate" while, frankly, many devils shouldn't be advocated for. That's not to say that lex is a horrible evil despisable person, he just seems like a bit of a dick from the layman perspective that I have, but moreso just that it's not always necessary for an emotional reason. Of course, doing it to get a better understanding of a situation as you did here makes total sense, and I take away my saying it's a puff piece now that you've described your reasoning, I just wish you'd said so in the video. Hindsight is 20/20 though, again really appreciated all these videos!

[@sturdyfool103]

I’ve had a convo with Lex, I promptly gave up on my mod and found greener pastures

[@Cygnus_MC]

Ur not the only one from what ive seen, however i doubt he's as evil as people make him out to be

[@sturdyfool103]

@@Cygnus_MC still a good way to make a first impression

[@razdva154]

We all know who is really to blame. Of course, these are bloodthirsty capitalists from Mojang who need a BIG reason to bring in the “super technology” that almost every game has, but if it doesn’t make money, then don’t expect that "super technology". I see this game as a product progress for the PlayStation 1, but not for modern PC society, and I know what I'm talking about.

[@GermanEzequiel_]

They continue to use Java, which is garbage for video games and is one of the reasons why Minecraft has such terrible performance even though it is a cube game with PS2 graphics.

[@smelly2897]

what is bro yapping about

[@user-nc7uw3rp1b]

made it edit: a youtuber replied to my comment :) i meant making it to watch this awesome video

[@Cygnus_MC]

Dang bro u made the whole thing?

[@DogsRNice]

Wow you must be notch himself

[@bamcorpgaming5954]

yea ill stick with forge. i dont care if the guys who works on it can be asses, it works, and isnt motivated by personal/political vendettas. Honestly when you spend enough hours of a day staring at code , i can see why itd effect your interpersonal skills. as long as the people care about the project and wants to keep making it better thats all that matters to me. I dont care if youre nice, i care that you know what youre doing, and care about what youre doing, thats what gives me faith in a project. Not only that but its free, so if youre asking for free tech support for something you never paid for, im sorry man but you get what you get when it comes to manners , as long as you get your answer. And honestly, as someone who is a counselor for his day job, yes, rude people are unpleasant to be around, but people who dont know how to deal with rude people and blow the situation out of proportions are just as bad. Imagine splitting up a community who loves a game, into four or five different , separate, smaller parts because you got butthurt, literally hurting everyone in the process. Now modders have way more work to do, and players have wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more crap to sift through in order to figure out what they want on their servers, and their options have been massively limited vs everyone being on one or two platforms. Which is worse? dealing with a rude person , or leading a community down the road to ruin because you got your feelings hurt?

[@Codestech]

NeoFabric when? 💀💀💀

[@littnuke]

You mean Quilt?

[@Codestech]

@@littnuke no, i was just kidding

[@trysteroelesuecaverne]

Straw man argument at 7:45. The whole point isn't picking Forge for feature set, or Fabric for performance. But to create a new mod loader that aims for BOTH features AND performance. And that's what Lex blocked for the longest time. We'll see if Neoforge succeeds or not with this goal. The whole point is to RETURN to a single mod loader because it's beyond stupid to create a divide on API features and performance. For sure Neoforge is new and not stable, that's why it's in a preliminary stage. All big projects take time. Complaining that these early versions of Neoforge don't fully work misses the point about the long term goal. You need to break things to make work, and this is the right time to make those tests.

[@Cygnus_MC]

Right but at the very least you should test the changes you make before commiting them right? And the whole "returning to one modloader" is bullcrap, even quilt allows fabric mods to run on it do an extent. Base Modernforge is as performant as fabric in most circumstances even

[@trysteroelesuecaverne]

​@@Cygnus_MC I don't mean "returning to one modloader" as a monolithic thing. You mention Quilt, that does exist, but it's irrelevant to the discussion since it's a tiny ecosystem that is not sufficient for any structured modded experience. The user base is minuscule. Right now Forge eats the large majority of the cake. Fabric was starting to grow in popularity and adoption up to the middle of 2022, where it was looking like it could only gain momentum. But due to several different and unrelated aspects, it started to very slowly decline through 1.19. With 1.20 Fabric as a whole collapsed, with a measurable (and easily proven) overall reduction of adoption. Many mods were not updated, and major incompatibilities developed. Important mods like Create had their support dropped in August. Fabric is mainly popular for performance mods like Sodium & co, that are natively Fabric. But now Forge has an excellent alternative with Embeddium. Now major mods like KubeJS and AE2 are planning to drop support for Fabric, from 1.21 and go exclusively on Neoforge (unless someone personally decides to fork and maintain them). Most big mods on Forge are already planning to move to Neoforge with the new version. This inflow of many different factors indicates that Neoforge will likely inherit the whole Forge playerbase, plus the merges coming from Fabric. Fabric will continue to be popular in vanilla-like contexts, which are not the topic here. So when I say "one modloader" I don't intend an absolute, just the practical outcome when it comes to modpacks that have structured experiences (progression, a questbook, and so on).

[@trysteroelesuecaverne]

@@Cygnus_MC Oh, and about "you should test the changes you make before committing them." You're missing again the point. Noeforge is in its early stages of development. It's like going into early development of a random game and complain things are buggy. You make it sounds like the testing has to be some hidden internal thing. This is not the nature of a COMMUNITY project. It's because things are being TESTED, that they BREAK.

[@lazarpro3030]

TeStInG OMG, self prs are normal.

[@Cygnus_MC]

Selfmerging on a main branch thats the actual one beeing used to compile the official version isnt, you test on a testing version. Besides he was told not to do selfmerging and still went and done it

[@lazarpro3030]

@@Cygnus_MC oh shit thats even worst i thought it was feauture branch.

[@creeperz653]

Yeah no both are in the wrong you don’t continue to harass someone with allegations over a block game second taking over a discord is even worse I will probably never use forge and only use fabric from on now when I do use forge it will be for old mods

[@nicktyrin4401]

Ngl someone needs to make some cringe allegations against quilt at this point

[@Yatcha479]

I once requested a simple change to neoforge which would take them second to do and fix many issues, they just told they thought of it but isn't going to do it and just told me to write super complex code which will take me hours to do just to work around the issues. To me quilt is the actual best loader, they at least make things simple and easier while adding more features and customizations So from my experience just don't think neoforge will fix anything, maybe it will but so far it's literally the same if not worse than forge. The only thing better is that its actually being worked on actively, forge kinda stopped being worked on after neoforge became a thing. The issue isn't with lex, its with the entire forge team.

[@Cinnamon_Shaey]

felt like this veido was very negative

[@ngl2.0-qo2pl]

ENB, a shader loader and post processing tool for alot of games (mainly skyrim-se, but also gta 5 and other games) has an big asshole and bigot homophobic as the main and sole developer, as enb is closed source, but at the same time enb is an incredible tool, one that there is no current replacement, i feel the same for forge (althou a replacement is more doable), forge is an incredible tool that carried minecraft mods to what they are today, i feel a bit sad to see what the modding scene has became

[@Cygnus_MC]

While we should not support people who believe hatefull rethoric, i do believe there has to be some seperation between the art and the artist

[@user-rc4bp8gl7e]

While there were a few errors in previous videos, they didn't compare to this. This video seems entirely one-sided, and I'm quite disappointed.

[@Cygnus_MC]

Im sorry you had that impression, all i did was convey the experiences of the people trying to express doubts about the project and showcase the things they are not talking about.

[@juanitoalcachofa3485]

Point is so convoluted that I started to wonder if there was a point at all in this video. As far as I got you’re just giving Lex the benefit of the doubt for a whole chunk of the community hating on him; disregarding temporary, for sake of briefness’s I suppose, why would so many members of a enclosed community of devs(forge) would be against their “superior“, being that Lex, collectively, if they didn’t have concrete motivation to do so. It takes a lot more than just inconvenience to sway a whole collective of individuals to act so radically; we’re talking about their hobby/work being unbearable to such a degree that they would rather move their entire workspace to different place with a new hierarchy just to get away from him. Something must be going on behind the curtains to provoke such change. No doubt.

[@SquintyGears]

If their internal behaviour is that toxic they're doomed to fail...

[@user-tc9en4gh2b]

I don't know any of this drama, but I think lex is getting slandered for no reason.

[@Cygnus_MC]

I wouldn't say no reason, but the reason is not worth this massive responce

[@Vampiric_Kai]

This honestly just sounds like an entitled child that wasn't allowed to do what they wanted. So now they're throwing a tantrum.

[@clh2533]

No you're thinking of Quilt

[@n3tw0rk_n3k0]

Lex is an extremely toxic jerk to anyone asking for help in the forge forums. Just having to deal with that made me stop working in the mod i was creating.

[@MarioSMB]

It is sad that people like Lex who become indispensable to a project due to their talents tend to develop a superiority complex and treat everyone "beneath" them terribly, it ruins any good they do.

[@Cygnus_MC]

I wouldn't say superiority complex as he has been consistently been an abdrasive and direct person, more so a talented individual who wasnt adept on leading

[@MarioSMB]

I recommend reading up on the reason for Fabric's creation - there are a lot of condescending and downright disrespectful quotes from LexManos shown there, where Lex claims others "don't know what they're doing", calls their work fake and resorts to namecalling. The NeoForge situation may have some grey areas but Lex is not a good person and that is counterbalancing all that they've done for Minecraft modding.

[@Cygnus_MC]

@@MarioSMB oh no dont get me wrong, he was a bad influence for a long time, but i wouldnt say its an ego thing. Its a personality thing