The Dagor Dagorath - Tolkien's Apocalypse | The Silmarillion Explained

The Dagor Dagorath, the Battle of All Battles, comes at the end of Tolkien's world. Morgoth returns through the Door of Night, destroying the Sun and Moon and coming into direct battle with Eärendil, Tulkas, Eönwë, and Túrin Turambar. Today we talk about the Dagor Dagorath, the Second Music of the Ainur, and the canonicity of the Final Battle!
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Eru and the Gods Singing the First Song of Creation - Kip Rasmussen
Door of Night - John Howe
Ainulindale, The Discord of Melkor - Anna Kulisz
Gates of Mordor - CK Goksoy
Dagor Dagorath - Felix Englund
Eomer and Aragorn Ride to the Lands of the East - Kip Rasmussen
Melkor and the Silmarils - Sara M Morello
Morgoth and the High King of the Noldor - Ted Nasmith
The Making of the Silmarils - Kuliszu
They Buried Thorin Deep Beneath the Mountain - AnotherStrangerMe
The Death of Thorin - John Howe
Nolofinwe - Ralph Damiani
Spirit of Fire - Jenny Dolfen
Of Sun and Moon - Sarka Skorpikova
The Making of the SIlmarils - Kuliszu
Istari vs Nazgul - Felix Englund
Taniquetil - Ted Nasmith
Taniquetil - Ralph Damiani
Melkor Descends Upon Arda - Kip Rasmussen
The Lord of the Rings - Felix Englund
Valar, Mandos - Kuliszu
Fingolfin vs Morgoth - Kuliszu
Mandos - Janka Lateckova
Luthien's Lament Before Mandos - Ted Nasmith
Halls of Mandos - Ralph Damiani
Manwe and Varda - Sarka Skorpikova
Morgoth Came - Jenny Dolfen
Luthien Dancing in the Moonlight - Kuliszu
The White Flame - Ralph Damiani
Tulkas - Steamey
Tulkas - Nahar-doa
Turin closeup - Felix Englund
Iron of Death - Ralph Damiani
Turin Turambar - Alan Lee
Mandos - Jenny Dolfen
And One More Ring to Melkor - Dracarysdrekkar7
Lamps of the Valar - Aegeri
Killing of the Trees - Ted Nasmith
Isil - the Moon Vessel - Matej Cadil
Anar - the Sun Vessel - Matej Cadil
Earendil - Alystraea
Ancalagon vs Earendil - Kip Rasmussen
Turin captured - Catherine Karina Chmiel
Morgoth Punished Hurin - Ted Nasmith
The Sundering - Ralph Damiani
The Silmarils - Ted Nasmith
Tilion - Aegeri
The Great Jewels - Ralph Damiani
Yavanna - Janka Lateckova
Laurelin and Telperion - Aegeri
Earth shattering - BellaBergolts
Laurelin and Telperion - Ralph Damiani
Feanor and the SIlmarils - BellaBergolts
Feanor - Catherine Karina Chmiel
Maglor Casts a Silmaril into the Sea - Ted Nasmith
The Great Jewels - Ralph Damiani
Mormegil - Tolman Cotton
Turin and Anglachel - Jenny Dolfen
Manwe - Nahar-doa
Eru Iluvatar - Janka Lateckova
Numenorean Armor - Tolman Cotton
Turin Turambar - Ivan Cavini
Father of the Dwarves - Nahar-doa
Dragon - Felix Englund
Fingolfin Facing Morgoth - Tolman Cotton
Varda of the Stars at Her Work of Creation - Kip Rasmussen
Mandos - Kuliszu
Luthien in the Court of Morgoth - Pete Amachree
Gandalf in the Archives of Minas Tirith - Matthew Stewart
Morgoth vs Fingolfin - Kip Rasmussen
Gandalf in the archives of Minas Tirith - Anke Eissmann
Dagor Nuin Giliath - Alan Lee
Morgoth - CK Goksoy
Tulkas Chaining Morgoth - Kip Rasmussen
Isildur and Sauron - Tulikoura
Sunrise on Numenor - Kip Rasmussen
Armenelos - Ralph Damiani
Eldalonde - Ralph Damiani
By the Gates of Angband - CK Goksoy
Turin and Glaurung - Kip Rasmussen
Out of the Sea I am Come - Turner Mohan
Finrod and Andreth - Alastryea
I will tell him, Andreth and Finrod - Sara M Morello
Iluvatar's Mighty Theme - Kuliszu
Dwarves of Ered Luin - Sam McKinnon
King Under the Mountain - John Howe
Fathers of the Dwarves - Steamey
Aule - Janka Lateckova
And Morgoth Came - Kuliszu
Fingolfin vs Morgoth - Kuliszu
Manwe - Felix Englund
Aragorn - Adam Middleton
Gandalf and Thorin at Bree - Ted Nasmith
Gandalf and Balrog - Felix Englund
The End of All Things - Another Stranger Me
Turin - Catherine Karina Chmiel
Dragonslayer - Skullb*st*rd
Ancalagon the Black - CK Goksoy
Ancalagon the Black - Jenny Dolfen
Ancalagon Departing for the War of Wrath - Kip Rasmussen
Ancalagon the Black Pierced by Vingilote - Dracarysdrekkar7
Dagor Nirnaeth Arnoediad - John Howe
Morgoth Dark Vala - Skullb*st*rd
Melkor Reaching Arda - Sarka Skorpikova
For more information on the Dagor Dagorath:
History of Middle-earth
Tolkien Gateway
Encyclopedia of Arda
#tolkien #silmarillion #lordoftherings

[@NerdoftheRings]

What is your favorite moment from the Dagor Dagorath? And do you think Sauron could be resurrected for the Final Battle?

[@bendygamer4143]

turin kills morgoth and yes sauron is resurrected since all evil is facing all good in this battle

[@makoyoverfelt3320]

Earendil flying back in to bitchslap morgoth out of the sky is clearly the most epic moment in the Dagor Dagorath!

[@juanchoguerrero9143]

Morgoth: I am inevitable Turin: and I am Turin Turambar *Turin slays Morgoth* Sorry guys I am just comparing the story of Dagor Dagorath with Avengers Endgame and I don’t think Sauron would participate in this battle because I think he faded in the void after the one ring is destroyed

[@ethankath9944]

I feel like it is possible but I don't think that Sauron is going to be as strong as he once was because of the ring being destroyed. Plus I thought that the Maiar or Valar don't die they just lose their bodily form.

[@Agreus93]

Turin Killing Morgoth and getting revenge, definitely. I would hope everyone got resurrected, should be the most Epic battle I was thinking, maybe Sauron's power would be negligible in comparison to let's say Luthien singing for the Valar's army, after all she charmed Morgoth and broke Mandos. Cheers!

[@memoxs2601]

I love the fact that even though Tolkien is the creator of this majestic world, he spoke as he was not sure or he did not know about some things in his own world, as he is in fact living middle earth as some of his characters. Leaving things into the unknown.

[@NerdoftheRings]

It’s so awesome. A lot of authors try to explain everything and I love that he is just like “that’s a mystery, I don’t know.”

[@Volkrad]

@@NerdoftheRings Ikr, that's probably my favorite type of worldbuilding, the elder scrolls kinda does the same with its lore (a bit more of a mess maybe but still) if you give all the answers you kill the intrigue and the wonder

[@robertstewart239]

The history is told through the Red Book and other writings by hobbits, meaning that there is not much deep insight and we are left to speculate about many things. What we have is a world seen through the eyes of hobbits and the whole history is simply what Bilbo, Frodo and Sam recorded or translated. A wonderful ingenious device used by Tolkien to get his readers to speculate. I love it.

[@he96765]

He wrote from an historian's perspective

[@rdc2021]

It could be he had not decided on those topics

[@j.briceodom_author3526]

I love the fact that in a sense the redemption of both Elves and Men is embodied in the figures of Dagor Dagorath. Turin, representing all of the struggles and repeated falling to temptation of Men, is the one who kills the representation of the Evil that had plagued them. And Feanor, representing the pride and possessiveness of Elves that put their craft and might before the world, at long last is humbled and surrenders their greatest creation and woe.

[@eliavillhabrand]

Dude the dwarves have the most epic and heartbreaking story! They start out as an unplanned child doomed to conflict with Eru’s true children. They establish their people and culture with great pride, dignity and love. Time and time again they loose their homes and herritage to the great evils of the world. Gundabad, Khazad dum, Erebor… all to finally be accepted as children of Eluvatar and take part in the great song of all creation

[@thelearicist]

How right you is

[@weseethetruth158]

I always took it as the dwarves actually have no place on Aë because they were not in the song of existence. So they would always struggle for a foothold in that world.

[@ursusbavaricus4761]

@@weseethetruth158 if they exist, they must have been in the song of existence.

[@weseethetruth158]

@@ursusbavaricus4761 no they absolutely were not owle made them after the fact they were not even sentient beings it wasn't until eru discovered them and owle that he granted them life after owle offered to destroy them.

[@ursusbavaricus4761]

@@weseethetruth158 yes, I know. But how could that not also have been a part of Iluvatar's designs?

[@HookedOnSonics518]

After the defeat of Sauron, when Treebeard asks Galadriel if they will meet again she says, "Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again.". It makes you wonder if Arda Unmarred with see the return of Beleriand.

[@devan98]

What book is that in ?

[@HookedOnSonics518]

@@devan98 The Return of the King

[@devan98]

@@HookedOnSonics518 thank you. I’ve never read but want to

[@thechriscrowing]

I feel like Galadriel WANTS Beleriand to be restored, as she probably knew her greatest happiness in Doriath. However, you'd think that Arda Unmarred would have the symmetrical quality of the Valar's first creation before it was marred (physically) by Morgoth's toppling of the lamps.

[@이서준-h1b]

The dwarves are accepted to the children of iluvatar and second music of ainur begins.... middle earth stories just gives so many feelings and I cant live without it

[@painlord2k]

The Dwarves are already accepted as adoptive Sons of Iluvatar.

[@damonwillis3004]

Even though Tolkien abandoned it, the story still has great potential especially when it involves Turin being the one to slay Morgoth

[@bigbangrafa8435]

I think Feanor having a chance for redemption, and Turin finally bringing some justice to Melkor one last time is very fitting with the message and morals of Tolkien's work. The ultimate triumph of good over evil, and the redenption of the damned.

[@eastbow6053]

why did he abandon it :(

[@Osyrous]

@@eastbow6053 his family, responsibilities at Oxford, and his limited life span.

[@claudius_drusus_]

Dagor Dagorath is canon. Christopher Tolkien made it so in his final book.

[@claudius_drusus_]

@zach miller The Fall of Gondolin. Published in 2018.

[@highwaytoheaven99]

If I'm not mistaken Tolkien said that after the One Ring was destroyed, Sauron got reduced to a mere shadow of malevolence, never to rise to power again, and that his spirit would eventually join his master in the Void beyond the Door of Night. If so, Sauron is by Melkor's side when he breaches the doors and return to the world. So yeah, Sauron returns with Melkor in the Dagor Dagorath.

[@ericspahn1857]

Gandalf did not say that, he said that "the wise could not foresee his rise" remember, the wise could not foresee the means by which the ring was to be unmade

[@lynnerose7891]

@@ericspahn1857 He never mentioned Gandalf, but Tolkien.

[@kraanz]

Sauron tried to be the new Morgoth. I can not see someone like Morgoth forgiving and forgetting such an insult. Heh, I know I wouldn't. Well, maybe I'd let him serve as a janitor to the Orc pits, or something like that. And even then, too risky. Better crush that upstart, who has failed his master innumerous times, on the spot. Why keep him around? Why keep around such an astonishing failure?

[@meleardil]

Sauron can not be resurrected, because he is not dead... he put most of his power into the ring to focus it. With the Ring destroyed that power is gone too... Sauron is very much alive, only he is now much-much-much weaker.

[@burakzaman2047]

@@meleardil galdalf says in a conversation that (battle of pelennor fields before or after which i dont remember), in short,some things will happen but we don't need to think about them right now. all we have to is do what we can right now or something like this.this phrase is indicating some bad stuff will happen after the war of the ring but its not directly telling about dagor dagorath. but i like to think that way. he may be referring to it.

[@kyledettman3484]

I love that you looked at not only what Tolkein wrote/intended, but also extended it to what the characters within the works think. It really goes to show how much life there is within Tolkein's works.

[@DPMusicStudio]

Well put. The work itself is alive.

[@Noleme]

Okay, seriously. Your balanced approach to the Legendarium, realizing the need to talk about all of the various writings without being afraid of uncertainty or not having a final answer, it is a quality that more folks who read the deeper lore need to emulate. Absolutely fantastic, thank you!

[@magiv4205]

I love the Dagor Dagorath so much. The fading of the elves and dwarves and the ultimate separation of the Children of Illúvatar in death has always been so deeply sad to me, so the thought that one day, old villains from all races can be redeemed and all the Children will come together once more and help in the remaking of the world is a beautiful ray of hope in this sad story. And it also means that Finrod was ultimately right and even wiser than he seemed, and that just makes me happy.

[@perfectrestrelaxation1592]

Me too

[@yongo1304]

Imagine Feanor, Fingolfin, Ecthelion of the Fountain, Glorfindel, Maedhros, Thingol, Fingon, Turgon... All fighting in this together. So OP

[@painlord2k]

Feanor gets the Three, enchases them in a mace and starts bashing Morgoth with it. Morgoth wanted them but could not touch them because they were painful for the impure (same problem Maedros had). If there is a reason Morgoth prized so much the Silmarili is probably because they would have given him some form of power. When he stole them, they were the only source of light left in Arda. Sun and Moon were modest replacements. I bet a lot of his (or Sauron) accomplishments in Angbad were possible because of the power of the Silmarili

[@bearb664]

Throw in Gilgalad and Elendil . . .

[@Merecir]

If Morgoth sees Fingolfin he will try to run away... I mean; hobble away briskly.🤣

[@furli13]

The Expendables - Battles of Beleriand

[@warlordofbritannia]

I just have this mental image of a horde of Balrogs wreaking havoc and then Glorfindel shows up, and thereby havoc consumes the Balrogs

[@samuelcrane8686]

love how you nerd out hard on the world of Tolkien and also respect his faith as a Chirsitan. Thanks for you videos

[@KTandT]

Hell yeah Turin, it's so fitting that he can redeem himself of his past deeds, and get revenge for the suffering of his family, by taking down Morgoth. Also love how Feanor has to humble himself enough to break his silmarils apart, basically unmaking his very soul. Although I will argue with you on the statement that Feanor was in Mandos longer than any other Elf. This assumes Finwe chose to be reimbodied, but what if he dwelled there still? And what about all the Teleri and Noldor who died at the First Kinslaying? Maybe they still dwell there. I'd rather state that Feanor was forced to be there the longest. Just speculation of course!

[@YewrinePish]

Straight up Amazon should have just adapted Children of Hurin if they could have

[@S_J333]

@@Alexs.2599 More like fortunately, imagine how much they could insult source material with changes...

[@SamvedIyer]

@@Alexs.2599 This, notwithstanding that the series had the potential to be the best and the most successful web series ever produced; not only because the Tolkien fandom is _that_ large and _that_ committed to the lore, but also because the stories are that good. And still, they choose to disregard the fandom entirely and instead concoct stories and characters out of thin air.

[@apachehelicopter9032]

OP let's get a pint sometime need to talk about some things 🤔

[@Emppu_T.]

Sounds like a Shadow of the Conqueror type story

[@udayanmandal2911]

I have always believed that men will come back to fight in the Dagor Dagorath, because of this line from the Akallabêth in the Silmarillion: 'But Ar-Pharazôn the King and his mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under the falling hills; there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle amd the Day of Doom.' My question is, will the Númenóreans fight at last for Morgoth, their God or redeem themselves and fight for the Valar? It will be really cool to see the full might of Men and Elves against the forces of Morgoth upon Valinor itself!

[@skullcollecter2979]

And Dwarves

[@aqueen04]

My own personal headcanon is that just as Morgoth will return with all the evil for this final battle, so too will all the good AND all those seeking redemption or to repent their evil deeds. So in my own head this means that the likes of Elendil and his sons, Aragorn, and all the heroes and heroines of old, as well as all those who fell from grace but seek to make amends, will too return. I like to think Ar-Pharazon and his army will have learned a few things in death, and thus will seek their own redemption and will fight against Morgoth and his creations. This may be going a step too far beyond what Tolkien was thinking, but I like the idea basically one huge "getting the band back together" moment.

[@mattkeith1180]

Your passion for Tolkien’s works really showcase the beauty of these stories as they deserve.

[@duneydan7993]

I know it reminds of the Ragnarok but the concept of "a war that will end all wars" is quite meaningful when you remember Tolkien survived the first World War. A war the french soldiers called "La der' des der's" meaning "the last of the last", the war that was going to be so horrible and shocking in its amount of crualty, deaths and destruction it would end War forever.

[@hannibalburgers477]

Two funny mustache men be like: "Lol, lmao even" Hey, Tolkien saw Cold War. I would like to think that Sauron and Melkor turning on each other is a reference to Stalin and Hitler: Most definitely not. That being said, I would love to see a flying eye (with toothbrush mustache right under iris) from movies "head"butting the eldritch Melkor colossus (With broom mustache)

[@connorcharron8534]

I love the idea that the race of men’s place is actually after death and that’s why they’re “gifted” with mortality while the elves live forever

[@17Watman]

It’s interesting to note that all the Balrogs that are relevant to the story were killed by Elves (Durin’s Bane being slain by Gandalf) while all the names Dragons were killed by Men.

[@luinerion]

Eārendil chose to be an Elf

[@17Watman]

@@luinerion indeed. He would’ve chosen Men but for the love of his wife, he chose the Elves.

[@nyxmoonveil]

I think it's worth mentioning that in The Fall of Gondolin, Christopher Tolkien's last published book, he pretty much ended it with Dagor Dagorath/The Second Prophecy of Mandos. (There are slight variations from the version which appeared in the Later Quenta Silmarillion, but it's mostly the same.) Given that he's had much more time to research and go through his father's writing by the release of this book (compared to when he edited the Silmarillion), I am of the mind that he concluded Dagor Dagorath is probably canon. At least for me, I consider it a fitting end and rebirth of Tolkien's world. Plus, it's always nice to get some of the major characters back for one final battle and redemption.

[@christophergirardi8145]

Christopher Tolkien probably felt his own death approaching, and while his father didn't put his full attention into the Dagor Dagorath, I like to believe he wanted a proper book end to the legendarium. All the death and terror put to an end, and at long last, justice, music and peace. The great war against evil is over, and the wounded are finally sent home.

[@Amondil1]

No, Morgath can not give life or create, as that power lie's with the Secret Fire, only Eru Illuvitar (God) can use it. So therefore he could not bring anybody back from the dead. As to Sauron or the Balrogs they are not really dead persay as they are spirits that inhabitt forms on Arda. It also implies that Eru brings back Turin as a form of justice and judgement on Morgoth which is even more fitting.

[@Whatisthisstupidfinghandle]

Not quite accurate. Aule created the Dwarves

[@Amondil1]

@@Whatisthisstupidfinghandle He made the dwarfs but they were not truly alive, they were just puppets and could move while Aule kept his thought on them. They did not gain true life till Eru gave it to them.

[@SaraBearRawr0312]

The creation of "Life" in the Legendarium refers to beings imbued with the flame imperishable which is only the children of Illuvitar, Dwarves, and Ents (and possibly the eagles depending on interpretation), however all other forms of living beings fall outside of this distinction which is how Morgoth created the dragons in the first place - as such, since no "life", or no flame-imperishable beings, are being revived, there doesn't appear to be a reason that Morgoth couldn't revive the dragons or simply create new ones. As for the Balrogs and Sauron, I agree with you - as they are Maiar and cannot truly be destroyed, perhaps enough dark energy from Morgoth could be used to form new physical bodies for them. While its true that Tolkien writes that Sauron was defeated physically and could never again gain his physical form, that may simply mean that he cannot do so of his own power since it is so depleted; but it says nothing of someone of greater power such as Morgoth doing that for him. This all also raises questions of how powerful Morgoth would be at his return after so many thousands of years in the void - is he more powerful than during the War of Wrath? Less powerful? How long did it take him to make Glourung or Ancalagon? Did he slowly create them over hundreds or thousands of years or did he just immediately will them into existence? Those sort of questions change the overall question of COULD he do it, and more so would he have enough time to do so as I suspect the Dagor Dagorath would begin immediately upon his return and the Valar would not wait to fight back this time as they did in the past.

[@lioneye101]

You forgot to mention about Ar Pharazon and the Numenorean armament trapped in Valinor being part of the Dagon Dagorath

[@josephgriffin2388]

Eh. Leave them in the halls of the forgotten.

[@Facade953]

Are they still on Sauron's side?🤔

[@kron3409]

@@Facade953 no

[@ShadowThemeFFVI]

Well, it wouldn’t be much of a battle of all battles if it was only Morgoth alone. Besides, would Morgoth take that risk? I can’t see him going into battle without the odds being heavily in his favor. Like all evil beings he is a coward at heart. Whether he brings back his servants from the void or gathers new ones, or both, the battle should be the biggest one yet.

[@jasonsinn9237]

This is only a guess, but maybe having the Valar and elves already weary and weakened, as well having the sun and moon destroyed would make him stronger.

[@federicoojeda2157]

What if morgoth team up with ungoliant again? Would be interesting , or there's no mention of her anymore

[@InsanityGrant]

Ancalagon returned from the dead, the orcs return as well i think

[@painlord2k]

@@federicoojeda2157 Ungoliant died eating herself. Melkor tried to get the favors of One Valar, One Maiar and was replied to go pound sand, then he got his short fling with Ungoliant and nearly was eaten alive (saved by the full complement of the Balrgos hearing his cry of pain). He would not reembody her in any case. She is, surely, not bound to Morgoth will in any way or form.

[@InfinityX2]

@@painlord2k yes good point. Reviving Ungoliant would be a liability to everyone including Morgoth

[@DylanSpringsteen44]

Turin Turambar being the one to slay Morgoth at the end of time, avenging his family after all the torture and pain they had endured at his hands, makes me happy.

[@ΧρήστοςΚίτσιος-φ9λ]

Man Turin dealing the final blow to Morgoth gives me so much chills, almost brings tears to eye.

[@TheTolkienCurmudgeon]

Greetings from the Tolkien Curmudgeon: Great job, Nerd! This is one of the most interesting topics showing how Tolkien created various versions of his stories which he did not necessarily intend to harmonize. I'm really glad you brought in Tolkien's idea that this ending for the "Later Quenta" can be seen as a Numenorean and therefore human addition. And you also mentioned that in another place it is written that the Elves knew nothing of Second Prophecy of Mandos and the ending of the world. It's great to see people talking about there being different versions without really having to pick which one is "right". I love this sort of open-ended aspect of Tolkien's Legendarium.

[@noscar3557]

I'm no expert, but Galadriel said to Frodo that the mirror of Lothlorien allows people to see things that were, things that are and things that are yet to happen, didn't she? So could it be that this (or some similar magic) is how the Numenorians started to believe in the Dagor Dagorath as you explained?

[@painlord2k]

"May yet to happen"

[@noscar3557]

@@painlord2k indeed, but my point still stands

[@CMHobbies]

We don't know since Tolkien didn't write that (to our knowledge).

[@kraanz]

What constantly pisses me off about Tolkien, is the fact he constantly refers to his works as if they're some legends and myths. Yes, sure, BUT YOU INVENTED IT ALL DIDN'T YOU? "Maybe it was of Numenorean origin." Maybe? You created this, can you stop with the moronic guesses and mysticism, good sir? "Only Manwe knows that..." YOU INVENTED MANWE!!! How about you simply admit you haven't thought this through?

[@kraanz]

Btw, on the mention of Tulkas, the greatest warrior ever... What the hell has he been up to? Drinking? So many great wars and battles, and yet the great Tulkas is nowhere to be seen? Making him... not even not that great, but also pretty... useless? How fat and lazy has he become over the ages, exactly?

[@somethingwolfish1872]

I really like the idea of Sauron and Morgoth reuniting and thinking it's all gonna go their way, and then having their imagined victory snatched away from them by the return of brave warriors Elves and Men and Dwarves with the Ainur leading them. Then at the end they all get to enjoy a peaceful realm together where the light comes from the Two Trees. I also think it would be hilarious if Sauron and Morgoth turned on each other right before the end.

[@04nbod]

Sauron seemed to already be turning on Morgoth by the end of the first age. After Beren and Luthien he does nothing

[@несквикспивом-ъ4ю]

@@04nbod from The War of the Jewels: "509. Maeglin captured by spies of Melkor (Sauron?)"; from Morgoth's Ring: "While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the beginning he had adored". we cannot say that he does nothing, his actions just weren't recorded like many other things. I mean, the War of Wrath lasted 40 years and it takes only one and a half pages in the Silm, so there's that

[@04nbod]

@@несквикспивом-ъ4ю Anyone could be a spy of Melkor. After Beren and Luthien he goes and hides in a forest and is not heard from again until he meets Eonwe and Eonwe offers him redemption. He wasn't working against Melkor at that time, he just wasn't shown as an active force for him

[@underfall2749]

The fact the author made the beginning and the end is amazing

[@thestockmarketboy3319]

All books have beginnings and ends

[@avrace2708]

@@thestockmarketboy3319 But not all universes have them

[@IudiciumInfernalum]

The Alpha and Omega.

[@04nbod]

Yes, the published Silmarillion feels off balance without it. We have this epic creation myth but no apocalypse.

[@TCO1216]

George RR Martin nabbed everything...except an end lolol

[@sapien377]

This video was serendipitous. I was looking for a video on your channel yesterday about this topic because I was trying to compare it to the Kalpa of the Elder Scrolls lore. Great video!!

[@NerdoftheRings]

Awesome! I always love when I happen to release a video on a topic someone was recently searching for on my channel. :)

[@ethankath9944]

I've always been fascinating with Dagor Dagorath I wonder what it would be like if Tolkien wrote a book about it.

[@MichaelDG2023]

It would certainly be a marvel because he’s been dead for many years

[@seanseal6265]

time machines my friend time machines

[@MichaelDG2023]

@@seanseal6265 When you get yours ready my friend I want the first ticket. There’s some Apple and Amazon stock I want to purchase.

[@Jim-Tuner]

He tried to write a story like Dagor Dagorath several times and never could. That is why the descriptions of the early battles against Morgoth in the Simarillion are so short and why the "war of wrath" at the end of it is barely described at all.

[@MichaelDG2023]

@@Jim-Tuner I am so glad that he didn’t continue with that 4th age sequel

[@ryanlaurie8733]

I always love how Eärendil has twice now according to the this account, flown down out of heaven to vibe check some evil force, unlooked for and unannounced.

[@limitedavailability6394]

Was just looking for any videos about this battle and I'm so glad that this channel made one!

[@NerdoftheRings]

It's been on my list for some time! :)

[@ChristaCrow]

Cannot fathom the time and work that must go in to researching and creating these views. Great job as usual. ❤️🖤

[@NerdoftheRings]

Thanks so much!!

[@ikebeckman1074]

I think Morgoth would have no problem raising dead allies. Sauron was under guise as the Necromancer, and when I think necromancer I think wights and zombies. If Morgoth has even greater power than Sauron he can probably raise the dead

[@rockyblacksmith]

The question is: Will that actually strenthen or weaken him? He can't give life of his own (that was the rub from the start), so all he could do is embew them with some of his own power. And perhaps animate them in the same way Aule initially animated the dwarves, without intependent will of their own. But that would only disperse his own strenth, making his power easier to defeat peacemeal.

[@Xerxes2005]

Necromancy understood as the art of raising undead beings is relatively recent. It was more about communicating with the dead to receive forbidden knowledge and divination. It was also a synonym of black magic. As I recall, there was no mention of zombies in Dol Guldur. Tolkien could have called him the Warlock, but Necromancer is far more mysterious and cooler.

[@Parthiango1ld]

@@Xerxes2005I thought Sauron was called the necromancer because he was able to escape his own ‘death’.

[@PyrusCreed]

​@@Xerxes2005Well, the Witch-King sent evil spirits to inhabit dead bodies, so Sauron should be able to do something similar as well.

[@philkugler2429]

I like your question at the end: would Morgoth be able to resurrect his servants? So my convoluted answer to this is yes, kind of. The youtuber Kyle Hill did an episode where he threw a ring into artificial lava and the results were pretty shocking. Because of the poor conductive quality of liquid rock it formed a shell around the ring, insulating it from the rest of the heat around it, and perfectly preserving it. The ring wasn't destroyed, just encapsulated. So there is a very very good chance that Sauron's spirit is still alive, just lost inside mount doom. With Morgoth coming back, there is a chance he would be able to find the ring and restore Sauron. It's also likely that the balrogs would come out of hiding when their master returns. Fantastic question.

[@AnimeFanatic5602]

There was a what-if that I found a while back. In it, Bilbo immediately made a connection between Smaug and Lobelia Sackville-Baggins. During the Dagor Dagorath, he gave Morgoth a dressing down saying that stealing the Silmarils was something that he'd expect from a Sackville-Baggins and not one of the powers of Arda while Sauron looked on in glee.

[@billvolk4236]

It's remarkable that Turin gets to come back after so long, but the sword he is said to use to slay Morgoth (Anglachel, later renamed Gurthang) is equally strange. It was made from a meteorite, and it's the only weapon in the Legendarium said to be intelligent and capable of speech. And its personality is at least as antiheroic as Turin's: Thingol refused to touch the sword when it was given to him because it exuded malice. In its own way, the sword seems to be something that crept into Arda from outside, like Ungoliant and the Nameless Things. So the thing that brings an ultimate conclusion to the story is something that kind of feels alien to the story, like an outside hand closing the book.

[@bigbangrafa8435]

When the lights go out, I think Melkor would be as powerful as he ever was, maybe even more powerful than at the first song, since at all moments, both in Valanor and Middle Earth, he was always hindered at least a little by the mere existance of the light of AIlúvatar. With the sun and moon destroyed, he would for the first time, ironically, leave the shadow of the creator and become the true expression of darkness, like Ungoliant.

[@hecate235]

There are still Varda's stars. Menelmacar is supposed to be Orion, Swordsman of the Sky, and a foreshadowing of the Final Battle.

[@7yep4336dfgvvh]

I think he finds the flqme imperishable and comes back stronger than eru and defeats everyone

[@thehoneybunempress1664]

The music in your videos is INCREDIBLE!!

[@carlthecaesar]

I have been waiting for a video on the Dagor Dagorath for months upon months and you did not disappoint. This would be an incredible ending to the story of Middle Earth and even if it's not canon/unfinished, the fact that it is still shrouded in mystery makes it almost more intriguing... like we'll never know the true ending to Arda until it comes... it makes Tolkien's world seem that much closer and more real

[@professorgrimm4602]

I love the idea of the Dagor Dagorath. The concept that Turin will be the one to slay Morgoth, and that Feanor will at last redeem himself is just so great. This, together with the second music is truly a final triumph of good over evil.

[@tomnewton4003]

Turin killing Morgoth is the best narrative mythological ending to a story ever I just wish he would fight alongside Tuor because the narrative parallels between the two is just so good!! And perhaps Boromir and Frodo coming back so Boromir could say "you have my shield" to Frodo and a complete redemption for all characters, it would good fan service.

[@WillFredward7167]

🥲

[@ShoddyLegion]

I could listen to this guy all day. Wish there was a podcast of just him reading the lore and explaining it.

[@timidity777]

This would be a great material for a video game, since we most likely never will seen it in any published works or actual media. And i just got the greatest idea for the setting:)

[@FrancisMaynard]

can you tell me, why I start to cry almost every 2nd video my friend ... there is something in your videos that touches me deeply ... Fantastic content as always

[@faustomadebr]

As a fan of the fantasy, off course a last battle would be amazing, specially for my favorite character, Túrin. But as a catholic, just as Tolkien, I understand why he would change his mind, because no one knows when/how the end will come. I can only imagine the "Hail! Worm of Morgoth" to become "Hail, Morgoth. Die know so my familly can at last have peace." Aurë Entuluva!

[@TolkienAnswers]

Christians (and Catholics specifically) do know somewhat how the world will end from Dan. 12 and Revelation. But you are right that they don't know when or many details.

[@faustomadebr]

@@TolkienAnswers Revelations are not very clear, to the point many will understand the book as something that already happened when the Church was still trying to stablish. But I get your point: we have an "end" to our mythology. :)

[@muddlewait8844]

Thanks for this response. I’m glad to see someone else thinking along these lines.

[@ahmadafiifiramli6056]

Chilll

[@UTYuetu]

You are my favourite Tolkien youtube creator. Love the production, presentation and knowledge you share in your videos and find them a rich insight into middle earth. Just wanted to say thank you for the content you produce and constantly look forward to new videos you produce.

[@isaacthekkumuriel8435]

I love this battle and how Turin kills Morgoth even if Tolkien abandoned it

[@royw-g3120]

His sword is forged out of meteoric iron, only something from outside Ea could kill Morgoth.

[@smr19673]

Wtf morgoth cannot be killed no one can kill him.he was banished to void

[@smr19673]

Except eru

[@StuartLegomanLittle]

@royw-g3120 and sent by Eru

[@CRESCENTII1968]

The conversation between Finrod and Andreth contains some of the most beautiful passages and syntax in all of Tolkien's writings----I am glad it got a mention----It is a very complex, very reallyprofound exposition and is not is for the casual reader-----Finrod speaks with a wisdom that is so underscored with a sorrow regarding the tragedy of both the Elder and Younger Children of Illuvatar, and speaks of mysteries that neither Elves nor Men can really ever understand, and both will have to wait to The End of Ea for the answers----

[@NerdoftheRings]

Check out a fun kickstarter I recently found out about! "A Long Expected Soundscape", where a very talented guy is making a series of accompanying tracks for you while you read The Lord of the Rings! www.kickstarter.com/projects/expectedsoundscape/a-long-expected-soundscape

[@iamrubenmes]

Wooowww

[@omeryakuppatan5784]

Bro your voice is so soft that I can listen it all day

[@tdkreturns-batcavepictures1224]

Finally about time you did a video on this! TBH I really love how Tolkien created his version of the Day of Judgement into the lore of Middle-Earth since I'm a Christian myself.

[@rudolphpyatt4833]

I am pleased to hear reference to Professor Flieger: I was a student of hers at the University of Maryland back in the 1980s.

[@pscar1]

I just love the idea of Turin getting justice in the end. It creates a beautiful end to that depressing story.

[@lordsauron8681]

The music Nerd of the Rings uses is the best music I have ever heard!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Roaming the fields is on another level man!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Inject the music into my veins

[@barbarossarotbart]

I've read somewhere that Ar-Pharazôn and his great army will also be resurrected and fight against Morgoth in the Dagor Dagorath. This makes very likely that Morgoth himslef recreated some of his own forces.

[@montithered4741]

I envision all the great heroes and villains will be brought to the last battle. However, I think Tolkien writes only of Turin and Morgoth because on them all creation turns.

[@lordjimbo2]

I don't know that they're going to be on the side of the Valar. They've been trapped under mountains inside the earth for aeons stewing in their hatred. Some might repent but others might see this as their chance to fight the battle they were denied in the second age.

[@barbarossarotbart]

@@lordjimbo2 As far as I remember they were fighting on the side of the Valar against Morgoth.

[@charleskinsey6528]

@@lordjimbo2 I like to think it would be their redemption arc, like the ghosts that Aragon commanded to fight to repent from their oathbreaking. They could make amends and receive the forgiveness of the Valar.

[@leloupdessteppes3228]

This channel is Illuvatar’s greatest gift to his children.

[@nightfalls5462]

didn't knew that Morgoth would literally destroy the sun and moon... damn, what kind of powerhouse is this guy?!

[@michaelblower7363]

He's the second most powerful entity in the Tolkien Universe. Only Eru tops him. Very much like how Lucifer was the closest to God in the Christian mythos.

[@KazgarothUsher]

This was an excellent post - it certainly fired my imagination! Thanks :)

[@dan_was_here9328]

The Dagor Dagorath was similar to Ragnarok and other End of the World beliefs in other religions. On the positive side, Arda is still rebuilt and still has a future ahead.

[@Georgios1821]

Actually no is a mix of the and of the Revelation of John. Tolkien was a Faithful Roman Catholic.

[@apachehelicopter9032]

Yes...like GOT when you know history the literary wheel just keeps on spinning

[@adammiller4122]

@@Georgios1821 wrong. Tolkien borrowed EXTREMELY heavily from the Norse creation poem Voluspa in the Poetic Edda, among many other Norse, Celtic and Anglo Saxon lore and myth. Tolkien’s personal religion is beside the point. I mean, that pretty common knowledge for enthusiasts, you might do a bit more research.

[@Georgios1821]

@@adammiller4122 No his relegion was the most influential part of his also the greatest influence on his novel was his faith read the book and then compare them with the Bible.

[@adammiller4122]

@@Georgios1821 not sure if you’re ignorant on purpose or accident, clearly you didn’t understand what I was saying. Either way it’s a waste of my time to continue. Yeah sure man you’re right lmao

[@emperornapoleon6204]

Excellent video! One of the great mysteries of Arda.

[@patrickdepoortere6830]

He has no power to resurrect his servants. He can gather what aspect remains, in whatever form and further corrupt and manipulate what already exists...potentially influencing or turning others. Another important consideration is time. How much time does he have to spread his ill-will and who is susceptible to his machinations? Who are his four horsemen?

[@painlord2k]

His servants are bound to Arda (by their own actions). The majority are left in the form of spirits unable to affect the material world - like Sauron, Saruman, etc. - having lost the power to take the form they desire. In fact, they first lose their ability to shapeshift, then trapped in a fixed form of their choice, they lose the ability to rebuild their material form. If Morgoth returns he can "just" give them a material form as his power is sunk in Arda itself.

[@tonyusa5509]

As per my post, I think this way: Melkor, after thousands of years of resting, will regain all his strength and powers. He could resurrect his old "friends".. but I think that it would be easier for him to call out the Nameless things that are gnawing Arda. They will emerge from below and it would be an unexpected attack and an unknown force to face.

[@Carbonbasedlyfeform]

Wow. Another spectacular video. One of my favorites!

[@sauron3488]

For in the Dagorath, Arda will be destroyed.

[@the88thdarcstar]

Thanks for posting the artist links. As always a well-paced and well cited video

[@ChiaraSiasat]

Great video Matt! Thanks again for letting some us see the behind the scenes process of the recording. The Dagor Dagorath would have truly been something incredible to read had it been included in the final draft of the Silmarillion. Seeing Turín and Feänor get the chance to redeem themselves in the end and seeing the world become anew with the help of everyone from Elves, men, and dwarves would have been incredible to read. I would love to see a video one of these days on Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth. It’s such a great piece to read.

[@ajfreeba]

This may be your best video to date. Wow. Brilliant! Thank you for sharing your incredible talent and knowledge with us. 😊

[@veevee199x]

thank you for creating this video! and I don't care what people say, this is one of the best stories from Tolkien and will always be canon inside my mind LOL

[@jeremygeltman]

I love the artwork you use in your videos. I keep having to pause or rewind just to take it all in.

[@ramzyquarnberg3229]

This would make a great movie

[@TolkienAnswers]

It would need at least a billion dollar budget for just 9ne movie. :P

[@nicknamenescio]

Best video on this channel. I always loved the Dagor Dagorath out of the very reasons you mentioned. Great to hear that there are grounds to argue that it might be canon after all, also in Tolkien's own view. In my "personal canon", it always was part of it, but it feels better to see that there is a chance that the author himself might have kept this great idea of a cathartic conclusion within the accepted part of his vision.

[@uzaysezer9565]

Even if Morgoth could resurrect Sauron, I think he would decide to bench him as I dont think he wouldnt view Sauron's attempt of replacing him as the next Dark Lord too highly.

[@Raven-um2wf]

His track record isn't all that great either, after all his failures led to the war of wrath ultimately. I can't imagine Melkor would be too happy with him overall.

[@iraklhspetsas5536]

Actually he was still working for morgoth, it wasn't replacing it was more like prepearing his return. That can be stated because he made numenoreans whorship melkor and not himself. Also if he managed to conquere middle earth it would be really helpfull for morgoth in dagor dagorath

[@magiv4205]

@@iraklhspetsas5536 I very much think that Sauron was following entirely his own agenda with the Numenórians. He merely made them worship Morgoth instead of himself because it was easier. Morgoth was a faraway concept to the later Numenórians, it had been thousands of years since he had shown his face to their ancestors. Sauron on the other hand was a very real and omnipresent villain, so even the Deciever may have had a bit of trouble in making them believe he could be their savior. No, he needed a good basis first that he could later insert himself into. Sauron was done following Morgoth, even if the wounds his lord left would never heal and everything he did was ultimately just in Morgoth's design. But Sauron wanted to at least believe that he was doing it all out of his own free will.

[@iraklhspetsas5536]

@@magiv4205 true but I wrote it trying to explain my thought that he is not trying to replace morgoth he is trying to follow his steps, ultimately trying to help morgoth's rise because he knew he was in no way equal to the weakest of the valar so surely he could not replace the strongest among the ainur. The entire plan of sauron gives me a feeling that he had always had morgoth's possible future return in the back of his mind.

[@magiv4205]

@@iraklhspetsas5536 fair enough, we can agree on that.

[@tomtate5329]

Haven't got time to watch this till later on tonight but needed to say......hell yeah I've been waiting for this video!!!! Love the content..its the best channel on KZbin! ❤

[@CameoAmalthea]

What I like about the different versions in different books is it makes it feel like a real mythology. Real mythologies weren’t written down at first and were told different ways and some lost and some changed. There’s no canon of Greek Mythology, there are versions and theories. Tolkien by writing different versions of stories created something that feels real, like a mythology that came down through ages with changes and lost things. Sometimes I think I’d like to engrave Tolkien’s writings on tablets and be buried with them in a tomb to confuse further archaeologists. (My ideal death plan is something to confuse future archeologists).

[@authorpgbadzey5775]

Excellent video. It provided a lot of interesting background and fascinating possibilities. It made me want to go back and look things up again. :) Bravo.

[@lhadzyan7300]

makes perfect sense of Morgoth bringing back all together everyone who helped him in the past or did evil on their own aside of his command - as Ungoliant and her kind did - as long all have one common motif to join together agains the Valar and the Children of Illuvatar and take over the world for their own deeds once for all. So Sauron, Ancalagon, all the Balrogs and even Saruman and Ungoliant might come back to became a huge hassle to take over before dealing directly on Morgoth himself as how Tulkas joined by Eönwe and Turin Turambar might do then at the end of all. Sadly Tolkien didn´t wanted to deal directly about it and so the story remains unfinished and sparsedly throught different works to have the fans getting all together the pieces and wonder about it. (I wonder if "The New Shadow" was an attempt precuel leading on the path before the Dagor Dagorath or it´s a totally unrelated work.)

[@hunterroylund4842]

I don’t know how you manage to keep putting out such quality, but don’t stop! I never got why the Valar didn’t just kill him in the first place if it was possible for the little guy to polish him off. They even have a prophecy so it’s not like they could be surprised.

[@Jayjay-qe6um]

Dagor Dagorath is Sindarin, a combination of dagor ("battle"), with its own class-plural dagor-ath ("all battles"), therefore: "Battle of All Battles". This name is only attested in a manuscript about "The Istari". In the oath of Elendil, the "End of the World" is expressed in Quenya as Ambar-metta. In a List of Names from the 1930s, the battle of the End of the World was called Dagor Delothrin in Noldorin ("Terrible Battle").

[@DavidPerry-ui2qz]

Really great episode!!! Thoroughly enjoyed it. Would love to see it made.

[@finnforce101]

I wonder what happen to Morgoth/Melkor after Dagor Dagorath, cause all Ainur can't die.. this case also applieds to Morgoth/Melkor himself. maybe after Dagor Dagorath, Melkor admitted defeat.. in front of everyone ( including Eru )

[@muddlewait8844]

I think the only happy ending must involve Melkor’s redemption somehow, but the problem is that Melkor redeemed isn’t even Melkor any more, not in any meaningful way. His entire role since the first note was to try and contradict Eru. It’s a problem, one even Tolkien couldn’t solve - maybe not even face.

[@danielhamilton351]

I can only imagine that Melkor, the other fallen ainur, and their minions would be locked away in the void again for all eternity. Or until Eru decides to spice things up again and "accidentally" releases them.

[@michaelblower7363]

Maybe Melkor becomes like Sauron; so terribly weakened that he is basically of no threat anymore. A shadow of his former self.

[@certinho76]

AMAZING!!! THANKS Mellon.

[@Hello_182]

The question is not whether Tolkiens apocalypse is real or what does it look like, the question is how many times has his universe already gone through it

[@TolkienAnswers]

YES!!!!!! I've been waiting for this one. This is canon to me. Great job!

[@Raz.C]

I don't know about Melkor summoning the spirit of Sauron, BUT I believe that if Melkor returns, then those imbued with his essence (such as Ungoliant, etc) will also return. In that same sense, IF Sauron does indeed return, then we have to assume that those imbued with HIS spirit (the Nazgul) would also return with him.

[@makoyoverfelt3320]

This is gonna be epic! Edit: it was not only epic, but informative and entertaining as always

[@natebarnard3377]

The Dagor Dagorath I think is one of my favourite pieces of middle earth mythology. It just combines so much into a nice conclusion, and gives a great ending for Turin, a fantastic character.

[@jamiegregg9211]

really cool vid Matt enjoyed it looking forward to the next as always

[@TBPetitP]

If Feanor gets his chance to redeem himself I think it would be cool to have a redeemed Melkor helping in the second music, putting all the talent and creativity he had before his downfall to the cooperative effort of this new creation, althogh I can't think how he could redeem himself from all the damage he has done, specially in the eyes of the children of Iluvatar.

[@cloudjumper8868]

Melkors greatest power is to put a contrast in the story (world). Without him, we would never knew about all the heroes, great kings, valiant elves, men, dwarves, nobody would have to make anything heroic, save anything, build anything, sacrifice anything... Illuvatar told him so somewhere in Silmarillion book, IIRC, basicaly saying that thanks to his evil, we will have interesting story, glorious deeds and great people, all acording to Illuvatars plan. Sry for gravediging, I just had this in my mind after reading your comment, I had to share.

[@scottc3165]

Always such great food for thought.

[@greyworld6242]

This needs to be animated or be in a movie! I wonder what Sauron’s fate would’ve been like if he had a role to play in this event? Would it be different or the same?

[@jeremiahdansereau2950]

Just as long as it isnt Amazon

[@Watthexe0815]

Thank you for this video. This is so beautiful. I’ve only just started learning about all this in depth. Your videos are so helpful. Thank you.

[@omarbinno4390]

Hi Nerd, I'd like to comment on 2 points: 1. You said that this wasn't about Tolkien borrowing from other faiths, but that it adds to the depth of the world. I would also add that it adds depth to those very faiths he borrowed from. So one could say that he gave back not only to his country (which was his main intent,) but also to his faith :-). 2. Would Morgoth be able to resurrect his servants? I personally don't really see his/their release that way. They are maiar, so they were on the same plain of existence as the other spirits: Valar, etc. So if Morgoth gets released, one would think that the others would get released also, kinda like when Satan and his legions are supposed to come back at the end of Christianity. So for me it's not about Morgoth resurrecting any of them, but rather all of them just being released at the same time for the final confrontation. Other than that, keep up the great work, as usual.

[@aurelian2668]

DOnt forget Sauron and the Balrogs and dragons

[@isabellacordoba3450]

OH MY GOD!!! One of my most fave topics!!!

[@SpaceMonkeyBoi]

"Somehow... Melkor has returned..." "How can this happen!?" "Dark magic, deception, secrets only the dark lord knew..."

[@TBPetitP]

Hey! Don't insult Tolkien's world with some Palpatine episode XII crap hahaha it is told in Tolkien's stories that Melkor awaits his return outside the circle of creation in the void, so he well eventually return and, after his defeat, the world be made again in the second music.

[@centurymemes1208]

except melkors return has myths and foreshadowing that it will come one day. while palpy just cause… somehow

[@fluffyisyermom7631]

get that crap out of here LOL

[@kresobetaorionis3400]

The picture of Eärendil is very beautiful.

[@sonnymassey2267]

Imagine if we had entire animation of 1st 2nd and 3rd age and the final battle directed by Peter Jackson? I don’t think we catch the war of wraith majestic in a real live action movie yet, man what a dream, it could be the greatest thing ever to appear on screen and one of the writers be nerd if the rings?

[@TheGrayStage]

This is definitely the most fascinating aspect of Tolkiens story for me.

[@harp-692]

Im pretty sure that in the final battle, Melkor searches for Sauron and gives him a new body. Maybe even Saruman would be given another chance by him

[@danish_guy8628]

I would love to see the mightiest kingdoms of the middle earth Keep up the lovely work