New Dedicated Signals on King St Proves Most Torontonians Don't/Can't Read Road Signs!

King Street in Toronto has a TTC streetcar/bus priority corridor that runs east/west from Jarvis St to Bathurst St.
Throughout the corridor at most intersections, drivers can only turn right.
TTC vehicles, all buses, cyclists, construction vehicles, emergency vehicles, and other authorized vehicles are allowed to go straight.
The goal, is to speed up TTC (Toronto Transit Commission) service by reducing the number of vehicles on the road.
Due to increased volumes of vehicles turning right, leading right turn signal phases were installed at 8 of 13 intersections to improve traffic flow and TTC service, especially when the line of right turning vehicles spills over into the streetcar lane. There are 2 intersections where I saw streetcars turn right, making good use of the leading right turn phase.
Unfortunately, drivers are regularly not following the rules and are ignoring the road signs that forbid them from going straight.
This increased TTC streetcar/bus travel times significantly. Articles and studies prove it.
toronto.ctvnews.ca/mayor-chow...
Now, new changes to traffic signals will never allow drivers to go straight!
Aside from the yellow vehicle signals and pedestrian signals, new dedicated bicycle signals were installed. During the leading right turn signal phase, the bicycle signals will be red. Assuming the city of Toronto is expecting cyclists to be at the curb, it prevents cyclists from interfering with drivers turning right during the right turn signal phase.
New dedicated signals for TTC vehicles and authorized vehicles were installed as well!
The TTC & authorized vehicle signals will be green during the right turn phase and the pedestrian phase.
The yellow vehicle signals will never turn green anymore! It will only display the right turn green arrow when the light is red.
For drivers that don't follow the King St rules (or those that don't read road signs) where you cannot go straight, they'll be waiting at the red light, as long as it takes for them to read the road signs and turn right!
Because most Torontonians don't seem to know how to read road signs, hopefully it forces them to read the signage and just turn right!
It proves just how many Torontonians don't pay attention to or read road signs, and how many Torontonians should not have their driver's license.
This was also done, because it means unauthorized drivers going straight is considered running a red light. It will be easier to accuse people for breaking the rules, because running a red light is a bigger violation than disobeying a "no going straight" sign.
Overall, I am happy with the changes because it makes people read road signs, and it's easier to expose those that don't. For the right turn green arrow phases, I think adding the bicycle signals was overdue, despite drivers turning right and cyclists sharing the right turn lane. From what it looks like, cyclists are expected to wait at the curb, during the right turn phase. Or they could wait on the left side of the vehicles turning right, and follow the transit & authorized vehicle signal if that's safer.

[@markberg6197]

Another thing the full traffic light is confusing and a waste if it never turns green replace them with a full right turn traffic light a red yellow and green right turn arrow only no green ball that would stop people holding up the street car waiting for the light to turn green

[@Todd.T]

Six different signs with lights on them and six other signs with words on them. Drive at 40kmh and you have a problem. Now pretend you don't speak/read English really well. Add a delviery van that stops you from seeing the signs until the last minute, jaywalking people, lane splittling cyclists and a firestruck/ambulance with a horn and wailing lights. Add bad driving habits from somewhere else that add the logic of if a car can squeeze into any space, it's OK and pull a U-Turn anywhere you feel like it.

[@RichardHartl]

How half the drivers in the GTA have a licence is truly a mystery

[@famitory]

that's way too much to read. just limit the street to delivery and emergency vehicles only and be done with it.

[@WestCoastTrafficSignals]

My biggest issue with this setup isn’t even the signage, it’s the R-Y-G signal being used for streetcars/authorized vehicles. Apparently it’s really a problem at nighttime, since the signs are less visible. I think it would help if they replaced the green aspect with a vertical transit bar. Although I think you’ve said that a vertical transit bar in Ontario means all movements, not just straight-thru? Another option could be installing a vertical white transit bar on top of the vehicle signal, although that’d lack a yellow indication for streetcars.

[@jacksonbourrettransportati9852]

I agree with that option, if only a vertical white transit bar would mean through only. If this was Quebec, they would have definitely done that, since they have several different types of white bars for transit.

[@OntarioTrafficMan]

That's correct. If we had multiple types of transit bar we could use the diagonal ones for turns, freeing up the vertical one for thru movements such as here.

[@jacktattersall9457]

@@jacksonbourrettransportati9852 Why can't the vertical bar be used to mean streetcars/buses can proceed, whether that is through movement or a turn since in either case cross traffic would be stopped (which puts a turning vehicle in front of the next wave of cars on the cross street)? It's not like an indication for yellow is required for buses/streetcars/authorized vehicles.

[@moho472]

​@@jacktattersall9457Not in the MTO book for allowed signals, other than the vertical white bar. I believe Traffic Man mentioned to me in another comment a while back that Waterloo got an exception to the rule when they built the ION LRT.

[@ltaproductions7989]

@@moho472 Can confirm, I work for the YRT, all of our transit leading intersections, look at Bathurst and Centre street, BRT signals have 4 aspects, red yellow green and on top, a transit signal, funny enough, because the BRT is only allowed to proceed on the transit signal, that light has never turned green!

[@jacobs1047]

way too many fucking signs

[@WestCoastTrafficSignals]

Regarding the signage, an option could be replacing the “no straight thru” signage with “Do Not Enter” signs. In Vancouver, heading westbound on Granville St approaching Smithe St, general traffic is forced to turn left while buses & authorized vehicles can go straight. They just have “Do Not Enter - Except Authorized Vehicles” signs on the far-side, with a standard green ball signal. Smithe is a one-way street, so not an Apples-to-Apples comparison. But still, it’s a different way to sign it.

[@jacksonbourrettransportati9852]

Why not do that here in Toronto? I 100% agree with you! I think the only reason they didn't do that, is because unauthorized vehicles are allowed to turn onto King St from another street. It's just through/left movements specifically from King St that aren't allowed. Maybe put "Do Not Enter" signs nearside only, or have it say "Do Not Enter from King St".

[@jacktattersall9457]

@@jacksonbourrettransportati9852 What about putting a sign saying "DO NOT ENTER - Except Authorized vehicles and local traffic". The other benefit of that is making it clear to drivers turning onto King Street from the beginning that they can only use it for local traffic (such as to access garages and loading bays only entered off King Street). Part of the issue I think is that drivers turn onto King Street and then suddenly realize that the traffic controls won't let them go straight and get confused. If drivers were aware from the beginning that this is a local traffic road and not an alternative to Queen Street, they would be less likely to be going through that "traffic signal computation phase" at the next intersection.

[@drivingnewengland-thedrive]

A couple of things I have noticed is that 1. I never liked the through travel is prohibited. Being from the US we use the No Left Turn, No Right Turn and No U Turn signs. For me looking quickly at the signs and not being from the area my though process would have my brain see it as an other left turn sign and ignore that it is a through travel is prohibited. To resolve this having a No Entry sign (Do Not Enter in the US) placed in the proper locations would positively convey the prohibitive travel. 2. Next is that there is a sign and signal device overload at these intersections. Just on the one signal pole with the right turn arrow there are eight signs and six signal heads, some signs are black with white letters and others are white with black letters. Back in the 1990's I road around with the city's civil traffic engineer in my former city and he told me that he could paint everything, have flashing lights and put signs everywhere and make it look like a three ring circus and that would not improve the safety of the area. Once you reach the point like what Toronto is trying to do here this is a situation of sensory overload for the drivers, you have too many signs, signals, pedestrians, cyclists, trolleys and buses, the situation is a circus and they need to strip everything back to the basics. 1. First is if the city is serious in making King Street a transit priority zone, then make it 100% transit only with the needed exceptions for deliveries and services. 2. Next where transit and traffic are allowed to coexist, then separate the bus/trolley lane from the travel lanes. This would mean the removal of any stopping/parking in the right lane. 3. Where traffic must turn right having the sole right lane being a travel only lane would improve these situations because you can design the intersection to force right turns. 4. Remove any indication that it is possible for traffic to continue into a prohibited area. 5. Possibly remove buses from the route and make it trolley only and remove any pavement. 6. Possibly design pavement where only buses could continue to travel over the trolley tracks. 7. Possibly raising and lowering barricades that only open for transit vehicles. 8. Installing transit signals instead of red/yellow/green looking traffic signals. This is something that is distinguishable that drivers will notice. These are just some quick thoughts, but even with these thoughts there will always be stupid drivers who will drive what ever way they feel, but reducing sign and signal sensory overload would be a great place to start in this situation, and not adding anymore signs or signals.

[@markberg6197]

The current problem is that Queen Street is closed on the same stretch so people are detouring onto king to avoid traffic on Richmond Adelaide and Dundas

[@Krueger444]

I'm a fan of reallocating road space for transit and cycling. But that initial light setup is 12 kinds of confusing at a first glance.

[@lambo2655]

The entire downtown is one big construction nightmare. So glad I live outside the city, in Mississauga and before I retired my job was in Mississauga a 15 minute commute each way.

[@Aphrx]

It's not really signal priority since I've still seen streetcars having to stop at a red for opposite traffic. It's more of a technically to be able to have a way to enforce the "Can't go straight on king street" since now it's just a red light that is allowing for right turns.

[@DmitriyLaktyushkin]

Sorry but this is awful design during the day, never mind at night. Once turned onto Allen Rd when bike signal went green because when you have a thousand G/Y/R signals all rammed in the same place and you are unfamiliar with area sometimes you just get confused no matter how good you are at driving otherwise. If a lot of people are failing to heed the signage there are reasons other than all of them being bad.

[@LoneHowler]

I find it wild that cars are even allowed on the transit lane. In Calgary only transit and emergency vehicles are permitted down the transit way

[@georgejones8784]

Is this now a permanent change on king st? If it is, put a do not enter sign blocking the right lane on the far side of the intersection, and scrape the asphalt around the tracks down to the concrete (or down to the rail ties). That way cars can't drive on the tracks, and have to drive on the right. Transit lights should be a straight arrow for ry&g. Car lights should be right arrow for ry&g. In the winter, use a ttc truck with a blade to push snow down to the track level, to the right, and a road plow can move it off the road.

[@jacksonbourrettransportati9852]

@@georgejones8784 Honestly, I really don't know if this is going to be permanent in Toronto. Toronto typically keeps changing things up at a lot of intersections, especially when road users are confused, or when compliance isn't good.

[@NathanShantz]

Yo this is confusing! They should have a sign saying NO CARS. That may help, ttc and other services know that they can go straight. It would be interesting to see what Google and Apple Maps tells drivers!

[@nswtrains3153]

To confusing without a do not enter sign

[@CHAOS80120]

The signs were never going to work. People will drive in the ways that feel right to them. The road needs to be repainted to make it very obvious that you're doing something wrong

[@johnlaw6735]

So the people and bicycles going into the crosswalk with the hand on shouldn't be walking or cycling? LMAO

[@thefozzybear]

Install cameras and start mailing out $1000 tickets the city needs revenue.

[@404_profile_not_found]

6 different sets of lights for one direction of travel and 1.5 lanes. Then you add on the multitude of signs for drivers to read when they reach that set of lights. If you know that intersection or the rules for that section of road, its probably not an issue. But imagine being an ESL driver or tourist and having to parse that amount of signage with rules.

[@jacksonbourrettransportati9852]

@@404_profile_not_found that's true

[@robwanless7551]

Need better pavement markings to try to divert non-transit traffic out of the thru lane. Why not solid red paint instead of faded yellow hatching?? Hopefully, “red light cameras are in place here!!?? To catch illegal thru movements in green. Regrettably, the original traffic signal setup seems better for transit because at least the “illegals” clear the intersection for transit to proceed. In the “After” setup, the “No Left Turn” and “ No Thru traffic” signs are too far from the traffic signal heads. Would be improved with illuminated turn control signs. Interesting video 👍✔️

[@sblack53]

Interfering with the flow of a transit vehicle should be an automatic license suspension. This includes not yielding to buses pulling out of a stop.

[@robwanless7551]

Need better pavement markings to divert non-transit traffic out of the thru lane. Why not solid red paint instead of faded yellow hatching?? Interesting video 👍✔️

[@jacksonbourrettransportati9852]

@@robwanless7551 100% agree with solid red pavement markings! If they have it at Queen's Quay & Spadina Ave, why not have it here too?

[@speakyourmind360]

The city needs to install larger LED (no going straigh & turning left) signs that are more visible, like the ones I've seen for no left turn at a few intersections. There are times when street lights malfunction at intersections, and motorists treat them as stop signs, assuming that's what most or some of them probably thought. Yes, they all should check for signals and signs, and I'm always on the lookout for no right turn on red signs and other signs as well, but I still see motorists break that rule as well. It could be that they really don't care to look for signs and just choose to do whatever since there is no one visible to enforce the law at those times, or they just go off impulse and follow everyone's lead, thinking to themselves; if everyone's going through something must be wrong with the light I guess.

[@jacksonbourrettransportati9852]

@@speakyourmind360 I've been advocating for LED signs that indicate restrictions for either turns or through movements for quite a few months now. At intersections where drivers repeatedly violate a "no left turn" sign, I also make requests for an LED "no left turn sign". They installed a lot of them in 2017-2020, but stopped since. I really hope there's plans to continue installing LED vehicle turn or through restriction signs.

[@frafraplanner9277]

Maybe Canada should use the horizontal and vertical bar signals for public transit like the US does

[@Ayeobe]

Montreal has those, actually.

[@jacksonbourrettransportati9852]

I 100% agree. It's unfortunately not legal in Ontario right now. Only vertical transit bars are legal in Ontario, which is considered as an "all movement" priority for transit.

[@Aphrx]

@@jacksonbourrettransportati9852It's weird cause some parts have the vertical line. I've seen it at Queens Quay and Bathurst. It's kind of half and half though, still has a red light but looks like 'green' is replaced with a white vertical line, to avoid confusion to the operators I assume.

[@TheTrafficTech]

Is there any current conditions where the vehicle signals turn green?

[@jacksonbourrettransportati9852]

Nope. The yellow vehicle signal will never turn green. The city did that, because they think it will increase the chances that drivers will follow the "no going straight" sign. It allows drivers to stop and read the signage. Only public transit, cyclists and other authorized vehicles are allowed to go straight, which have their own dedicated signal heads that turn green each cycle.

[@TheTrafficTech]

@@jacksonbourrettransportati9852 interesting! Yeah I’d opt to go with a vehicle signal with right arrows only. Might be less confusing for the simple minded haha!

[@jacksonbourrettransportati9852]

Yeah I never saw a setup like that prior to these new changes here! I thought for sure that fully protected right turn signal heads would be used, when I first heard of the planned signal changes. I suspect they want the red ball to be displayed at all times, because unauthorized vehicles aren't ever allowed to go straight. They could do that with fully protected right turn signal heads too. I remember reading that the city wanted unauthorized vehicles that illegally go straight to be considered as running a red light, so the fines are a lot more harsh. If any green indication is displayed without a red ball, it's not considered as running a red light. Toronto really wants to maximize the penalty for unauthorized going straight.

[@moho472]

I agree, and I mentioned this in a comment on a blog post, but someone said that the solid red is more communicative. I disagreed by saying that the red/yellow arrows would communicate to drivers that they must turn right only. If I recall, the MTO doesn't actually have a rule for coloured arrows, except for advanced Greens/Ambers ​@@TheTrafficTech

[@TheTrafficTech]

@@moho472 yeah I noticed that. Still, a right only protected signal would get the point across here. One less display to look at. The authorized vehicles signal could be mounted on the left mast arm and vehicle signals plus bicycle could be mounted on the right.

[@carlmenger9145]

Do you know if google maps allows for routes going straight or turning left?

[@jacksonbourrettransportati9852]

I don't think Google maps knows about it.

[@BigCorgisGTJourneys]

google maps shows correct turning restrictions.

[@delicious_seabass]

Toronto is such a ridiculous city. It's totally confusing for anyone who hasn't driven there before. Furthermore, the reason why people want to continue down King is because the next street to go west is several blocks north, and getting there involves sitting in tons of traffic. The TTC is a complete joke and the streetcars need to go, period. Just have one way vehicle dedicated roads, one on King for Westbound and another on Queen for Eastbound. Make another street dedicated for pedestrians and bikes, perhaps Adelaide. That would solve 95% of the issues.

[@jacksonbourrettransportati9852]

@@delicious_seabass I 100% agree that streetcars in "mixed traffic" need to go. Streetcars should run either on its own dedicated lanes (like Spadina or St Clair), or just simply have it run underground or on an elevated right of way. I am actually looking into a solution to this as well. What I had in mind is to make King St a one way eastbound, and Wellington St is already a one way westbound. Streetcars already run on Wellington St from Church St to York St. Streetcars won't be held by anyone who is confused. Another benefit with streetcars running on one way streets means drivers can actually legally pass a streetcar on the left side when it's stopped letting people on and off on the right side. The only drawback with Wellington being used as the one way westbound, means it can only go from Church St to either Peter St or Spadina (without major intersection reconstruction/redesigning). Other than that, I agree with making King St and Queen St one way pairs. 👍 Thank you for your suggestion! 👍

[@orospakr]

I agree that it's confusing. However, deleting the streetcars is absolutely the wrong solution. Cars take up a huge amount of road space for 1 or 2 people compared to a streetcar (and pedestrians and cyclists for that matter). I agree with the intent of the changes on King St -- to deprioritize private vehicle traffic -- but as seen here they're clearly not well operationalized.

[@DanTheCaptain]

There’s too much signage, and too many confusing lights. The real solution here would be to have one lane dedicated to just car traffic and have the streetcar tracks completely separated OR completely ban cars from King St, full stop.

[@jacksonbourrettransportati9852]

@@DanTheCaptain There is currently a dedicated right turn lane that unauthorized vehicles must use. Transit and authorized vehicles have a dedicated through lane. Authorized vehicles are also allowed to use the right turn lane to turn right. Cyclists currently share the right turn lane with motor vehicles. Even though I don't actually agree with restricting unauthorized vehicles from going straight or banning cars, I am accepting of the through restrictions, because it's only meant to improve public transit service, as well as emergency response times. I feel like the through restrictions is more of a temporary solution to improve public transit service.

[@ltaproductions7989]

Transit Planner here, what needs to be done is either pedestrinize king street and be done with it, or replace the transit traffic light with the international transit signal, will be a lot harder to mistake a ( I ) and a ( -- )

[@jacksonbourrettransportati9852]

I 100% agree with using a horizontal and vertical line for the transit signal! I just wish Ontario would legalize it. Right now, only vertical transit lines are allowed in Ontario, which is considered an "all movement" priority.

[@koraytugay]

They should put more signs with more text.

[@ronberman8947]

Very confusing. Engineers got to come up with a better system...Half a billion $$ annual transportation budget and this is what you came up with?

[@Jabberwockybird]

To be fair, that's a lot of signs and lights to read in a short amount of time. It's technically got the info, but realistically you would be holding up traffic to stop and read it all

[@awahhabmir]

Looks like a comic book. A bad one lol

[@SRN42069]

Just shut the road down for everything but transit,emergency vehicles and delivery vehicles.

[@koraytugay]

A Do No Enter and a One Way sign pointing to the right would solve it. A traffic light that is permanently red makes no sense.

[@kino_cinante]

This why painted roads for transit only are helpful. Or go full European and have motorized bollards that move down only for transit and police.

[@AmtrakProductions]

Smart

[@fatvegan733]

Install a bloody camera and be done with it.

[@robertkennith7866]

Toronto police to getr back in to the job of enforcing traffic laws, there need to be traffic copos on the ground directing traffic, I've worked on these streets for decades, it was around 20 10 i think when TPS announced a change to how they enforce traffic, in this case thy stopped enforcing year after year.. I used to see someone run a red light once or twice a week, its an hourly occurrence now. the drivers here are so entitled they feel they can and pretty much do get away with anything and everything, its 3rd world level bad, and it never used to be like this

[@jacksonbourrettransportati9852]

@@robertkennith7866 Unfortunately every road user in Toronto acts entitled. Especially those that don't obey "no turn" signs. Pedestrians and electric scooters/bikes are the worst in Toronto. I am convinced that Toronto is the road rage capital of Canada.

[@robertkennith7866]

@@jacksonbourrettransportati9852 sais who? literally every person who comes to this city comment how bad the drivers are, not how bad the pedestrians are

[@jacksonbourrettransportati9852]

@@robertkennith7866 Well, I'm comparing it to other cities across North America. The only city that I know of where pedestrians are worse than Toronto is New York City. Drivers and cyclists in Toronto (including myself) are fed up with it. I always hear Torontonians talking about how bad pedestrians are here in Toronto. The visitors complain about how bad drivers are.

[@robertkennith7866]

@@jacksonbourrettransportati9852 don't know who you're talking to, but pedestrians Torontonians are considered to be overly polite by most people outside of Canada, aside our drivers, which you can look up Toronto Traffic, and clearly they have correctly earned the reputation as the worst drivers in North America...

[@jacksonbourrettransportati9852]

@@robertkennith7866 Interesting. that's not the experience I had in Toronto, but I respect that everyone can have different experiences. I agree and observed myself that when it comes to distracted driving, improper lane changes/turns, and unnecessary slow driving, Toronto drivers are the worst of Canada. When traveling to other cities such as Victoria, Quebec City, Fredricton, Moncton, Montreal and Prince Edward Island, I experienced that pedestrians were more polite in those cities than Toronto. Quebec City, Prince Edward Island and Fredricton were the places where I experienced pedestrians to be the most polite. I visit Quebec City and Montreal on a regular basis.

[@edgarwideman737]

Pause the video at 2:00 and ask yourself. How in the WORLD are you supposed to figure out what that mess all means. I think it's more of a UI problem then mischievous motorists.

[@jacksonbourrettransportati9852]

As much as I somewhat agree with you, you'd be surprised to see how many Torontonians don't pay attention to or ignore "no left/right turn signs at other Toronto intersections such as Lakeshore Blvd, Woodbine Ave, Eglinton Ave, or at other downtown intersections. Especially when left turns are prohibited only at certain times of day. It's been so bad there, that they had to install LED blank out "no left turn" signs at intersections. The LED "no left turn" sign lights up during the no left turn hours. They even had to add an "oversized" no left turn sign on Lakeshore Blvd! But yes, comparing it to King St & Yonge, King St & Yonge is worse, but not by too much.j

[@youdonwannaknowme]

We should use pictographs instead of so much text. Hasn't that been the general approach/direction we've been using for all signage? There are other ways signage could have been simplified too.

[@drsheikh]

Garbage. There are 200 cars lined up, and a CHAPTER worth reading that in a busy intersection - Such cars are not allowed on such days of the week between such and such times. New drivers are dumbfounded. Downtown needs to get rid of the street cars that slows down traffic.

[@jacksonbourrettransportati9852]

@@drsheikh I 100% agree with getting rid of streetcars from "mixed traffic". Streetcars should either have their own dedicated lanes (like Spadina or St Clair), or have streetcars run underground or elevated.

[@NyxKemo]

Toronto drivers are a whole other level of bad, and the Toronto government can’t implement signals properly for trams/busses, it’s really dumb